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"History tells us these un-American incidents undermine civil society"
Add Woodrow Wilson International Center scholar Jamie Stiehm to the growing list of people worried that the health care debate will trigger a race war. Here's Stiehm scaring Philadelphia about the town hall mobs:
When a man brings a gun to a New Hampshire meeting, when a Missouri woman tears up a poster of civil rights icon Rosa Parks, and when long-serving Sen. Arlen Specter (D., Pa.) and Rep. John Dingell (D., Mich.) are shouted down by hostile home crowds, then we've got trouble. History tells us these un-American incidents undermine civil society.
Philadelphia has seen a rising tide of mob violence before, in Jacksonian America during the 1830s. The culmination came when a grand new temple of free speech was burned down by a mob while the police, firefighters, and the mayor did nothing to stop them. [...]
The economic Panic of 1837 probably accounted for some of the Philadelphia crowd's violence. Racism was certainly there in droves. The lack of municipal authority and failure of leadership fanned the flames.
What the burning of Pennsylvania Hall tells us, though, is that an ugly hatred lived and festered in the country itself. For if something so drastic could happen in dear old Philadelphia, the state of the union was in danger in 1838. The writing was on the hall.
And so it is today, with violence in the air. If it could happen there and then, it could happen here and now.
Let's see, what's different between America in 2009 and America in the 1830s? Hmmmmm.... Nope, can't think of anything.
And yes, the Wilson Center is funded partly through your tax dollars.
torpid|8.17.09 @ 6:46PM|#
If Obama had been president in 1837, the Civil War would never have happened. I don't think you can seriously dispute that.
MattXIV|8.17.09 @ 6:49PM|#
Jamie's employer's namesake had some ideas about how to deal with those pesky opponents of his policies.
Tim Cavanaugh|8.17.09 @ 6:51PM|#
"The culmination came when a grand new temple of free speech was
burned down by a mob."
Don't know what a grand temple of free speech is, but from the
sound of it I'd say no-one dast blame the mob.
|8.17.09 @ 6:51PM|#
That image is an album cover? Holy shit! Now I have to hear the
band.
(takes a moment to find their website)
Ahh, not so great. That's too bad--maybe they should go into
business making surreal album covers for better bands.
Hugh Akston|8.17.09 @ 6:51PM|#
The race war is inevitable. Whether it's healthcare overhaul, the registration act, or the Sentinel initiative that brings it about is unimportant.
ed|8.17.09 @ 6:52PM|#
The NYC Draft Riots might have been a better example. Not a good one, but a better one.
24AheadDotCom|8.17.09 @ 6:53PM|#
Anywhoo, the leaders of the supposed opposition to BHO should
have foreseen that their plan of encouraging people to go disrupt
or at least act out at meetings would backfire, causing BHO
supporters to portray them even more negatively than they would
otherwise look. The Dems haven't done themselves any favors by
going overboard.
If any smart, grown-up, logical, honorable BHO opponents want to do
something effective, don't listen to your incompetent leaders.
Instead, organize groups to go
ask Arlen Specter this question (it applies to other pols
too).
Renegade Jones|8.17.09 @ 6:54PM|#
And so it is today, with violence in the air.
This is a sentence? Sounds more like the intro to a very unusual
award ceremony...
hmm|8.17.09 @ 6:54PM|#
What's un-American about the first on the list? There would be
far less shouting if everyone was armed. There would also be far
less retarded politicians and asshatery. Something about pissing
off a room full of armed people.
The MSNBC coverage of the open carry in NH was great. The panicky,
"can't they get a lawyer" talk was marvelous.
Why can't we
get rid of him now?
I'll take because he is on private property for 10,000 Alex. You
raving fucking cunt bag.
hmm|8.17.09 @ 6:56PM|#
I've heard fears about race wars breaking out from both races. Everyone I know dismisses it as bullshit.
|8.17.09 @ 6:57PM|#
"Token forfeits! Whites win! Whites win! Race war's over everybody, whites won again!"
I, Kahn O\'Clast|8.17.09 @ 6:58PM|#
I have decided that while I love my country I think it would be better off entirely depopulated.
ed|8.17.09 @ 6:59PM|#
the growing list of people worried that the health care
debate will trigger a race war
Anyway, if there's going to be a "war," it'll be a class war.
Thousands of old-timers in electrified scooters (paid for by
Medicare!) manning the bingo-hall barricades.
Anonymous|8.17.09 @ 7:05PM|#
hmm, I've also noticed a propensity to highlight guns at
"Townhall Meetings" in news reports.
Because you only have fear itself and guns and explosives to fear
at these things. Oh, and Union thugs. Oh, and opposition plants.
Oh, and media representation. Yep, nothing but guns.
hmm|8.17.09 @ 7:09PM|#
He was on church property, away from the town hall. I have no
problem with secret service zoning off and creating a bubble to
protect people. Especially when the crowd is angry. But they don't
get to disarm citizens outside of the venue.
My everyone with a gun was a little hyperbole, but the truth is I
would feel safer in a room full of armed people than a room where
only the guys in uniform are armed. The level of civility that
accompanies a completely level playing field is always
impressive.
Me|8.17.09 @ 7:09PM|#
Anonymous | August 17, 2009, 7:05pm | #
hmm, I've also noticed a propensity to highlight guns
'Cause only fascists own guns, silly boy.
EJM|8.17.09 @ 7:10PM|#
Philadelphia has seen a rising tide of mob violence
before...
There was also the time when WPVI dared to use a
new version of "Move Closer to Your World" that featured the London
Philharmonic.
Tim Cavanaugh|8.17.09 @ 7:11PM|#
My everyone with a gun was a little hyperbole, but the truth
is I would feel safer in a room full of armed people than a room
where only the guys in uniform are armed.
Does your preference change if alcohol is being served?
|8.17.09 @ 7:11PM|#
It is very fitting that someone from the Woodrow Wilson
International Center would be worried about anti-government
protesters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition_Act_of_1918
Me|8.17.09 @ 7:18PM|#
Lou Dobbs is about to show the clip of a black man, amid a crowd of very white protesters in Arizona, with a rifle slung over his shoulder. Sweet.
hmm|8.17.09 @ 7:19PM|#
Does your preference change if alcohol is being
served?
Yes. Oddly the ideal situation would be everyone stoned and with a
gun if I'm going to go the hyperbole route.
I know too many people who get belligerent with alcohol. There's a
reason there were gun checks back in the day and most CCW law and
classes emphasis personal restraint and control when carrying. I
can't think of a single bar owner that allows CCW. The truth is
that most people that would carry would be responsible and the
people would more than likely curtail the individuals that would do
so and act irresponsibly through the use of property rights. I am
torn as to whether to use legislation to avoid the situation, since
ultimately the responsibility and most effective means to enforce
responsibility is to turn it over to those who are responsible.
Which is not government.
The short answer would be I would only frequent establishments that
enforced some sort of responsibility through property rights. I
rarely drink in public anyway, and being an asshole magnet I
typically avoid situations where assholes may be.
|8.17.09 @ 7:22PM|#
I have decided that while I love my country I think it would
be better off entirely depopulated.
Hey, I'm only one man and I'm workin as fast as I can.
ed|8.17.09 @ 7:24PM|#
hmm | August 17, 2009, 7:19pm | #
"Does your preference change if alcohol is being served?"
Yes. Oddly the ideal situation would be everyone stoned and with a
gun if I'm going to go the hyperbole route.
I can top that: Everyone stoned, armed...and in a lifeboat!
hmm|8.17.09 @ 7:24PM|#
I recently had an interesting, and heated, run in at a private range that consisted of an officer, an acquaintance, and myself. That is where the level of civility comment comes from. That is also an excellent example of responsibility of those who typically lawfully own weapons. You will always have the gangbanging/redneck irresponsible dipshit regardless of laws.
hmm|8.17.09 @ 7:26PM|#
As has been said 1oo times before me. If you could convince the pot heads and gun nuts that the other isn't evil incarnate the US government would look a lot better.
|8.17.09 @ 7:26PM|#
I can't think of a single bar owner that allows
CCW.
hmm, I've been in bars in Headquarters and Elk City Idaho where men
were standing at the bar with wheel guns on there hips. Cowboy
style. The atmosphere was actually pretty laid back and
comfortable. You could really get your drink on without worryin
about the idiot in the corner gettin stupid.
hmm|8.17.09 @ 7:28PM|#
That's open carry states. CCW states w/o open carry are more conservative. The farther west you go the more "responsible" (for a lack of a better word) people seem. The gun laws typically become more lax out west as well, until you hit that communist state and it's wannabe neighbor.
hmm|8.17.09 @ 7:29PM|#
Your right though. I have seen armed patrons out west as well. I was mistaken. Being stuck in Missery has rotted ma melon.
Elemenope|8.17.09 @ 7:32PM|#
Oddly the ideal situation would be everyone
stonedmildly baked and with a gun if
I'm going to go the hyperbole route.
If they're full on stoned, you run the terrible risk of someone
yelling "squirt gun fight!"
IceTrey|8.17.09 @ 7:33PM|#
You know interestingly enough, back in the Wild West days, most towns prohibited wearing firearms within the city limits. That's actually what precipitated the shoot out at the OK corral.
hmm|8.17.09 @ 7:36PM|#
A lot of bars didn't allow arms even if the city allowed them in town. That is the enforcement of responsibility through property rights that I was speaking about. Oddly enough from what I have read enforcement was rarely a problem, but then again the default plan wasn't dress up in military gear and charge in ready to shoot. The default was usually a discussion.
robc|8.17.09 @ 7:48PM|#
dear old Philadelphia
The author is clearly unfamiliar with Philly sports fans.
|8.17.09 @ 7:51PM|#
Fuck the hell out of these people. Liberals have been totally in love with shouting down your enemies for at least 40 years, whether it was in universities, town halls, protests, etc. Suddenly now that it's not left wingers doing the protesting, that's horrible. Seriously? Does ANYONE not see through that bullshit? Do they think they entire country was born post anti-Bush era?
|8.17.09 @ 7:53PM|#
How has no one beat me to this?
Dagny, for some of us, it's kinda like giggling when the blue
haired sack-o-wrinkles farts in church. It just loses its magic
after awhile.
|8.17.09 @ 8:00PM|#
Damn you robc! [lifts fist from walker to shake it]
Anyone want to start a pot and guns party?
Start? [blinks repeatedly] Seriously, you've never heard of the
Guns and
Dope Party?
|8.17.09 @ 8:11PM|#
hmmm
until you hit that communist state and it's wannabe
neighbor.
I take it you mean my Washington and Oregon?
WA is really two states--extra blue King Co. (Seattle) and the rest
of the state, which is pretty red. Something Similar with Oregon
and Portland.
Elemenope|8.17.09 @ 8:15PM|#
How has no one beat me to this?
We were just saving it for you, of course!
|8.17.09 @ 8:21PM|#
hmm @ 7:19: "and being an asshole magnet I typically avoid
situations where assholes may be."
Would the operant saying be, "Birds of a feather flock together,"
or "Opposites attract"?
|8.17.09 @ 8:35PM|#
"Race war? What, between blacks and Koreans? I don't get
it."
it's already started. tiger woods killed himself...
JB|8.17.09 @ 8:41PM|#
Jamie Stiehm is a fetus in need of a medical procedure.
What does that have to with race? Not a god-damned thing. What does
it have to do with stupidity and my pro-choice rights?
Everything.
JB|8.17.09 @ 8:55PM|#
"an asshole magnet"
I seem to be a magnet for damaged goods (of the chick variety). I
wish I was more of an asshole magnet...I could use a few faces to
pound into hamburger.
Rich|8.17.09 @ 9:03PM|#
Let's see, what's different between America in 2009 and
America in the 1830s?
Today, the Wilson Center provides "a link between the world of
ideas and the world of policy", unlike the benighted 1830's.
Oh, and I'd give torpid the win right off the bat.
hmm|8.17.09 @ 9:42PM|#
Would the operant saying be, "Birds of a feather flock
together," or "Opposites attract"?
No clue. You have to hit me with a 2X4 to piss me off. I just seem
to find every half cocked Napoleon complex dipshit with in a 20
square mile area that wants to hit me with a 2X4 after getting
drunk.
|8.17.09 @ 9:44PM|#
"My everyone with a gun was a little hyperbole, but the truth is
I would feel safer in a room full of armed people than a room where
only the guys in uniform are armed.
Does your preference change if alcohol is being served?"
Nope. My level of fear would depend on the people in the room, not
on whether there was alchohol being served.
I wonder if people like Stiehem realize what a joke they are making
of themselves. No one is buying this shit.
Rich|8.17.09 @ 9:54PM|#
No one is buying this shit.
Sure they are -- ~300K Philadephia Inquirer
subscribers.
alan|8.17.09 @ 9:57PM|#
Does your preference change if alcohol is being served?
I enjoyed a meal about a month ago at a Long Horn Steak House in
Greensboro. I counted several concealed weapon bulks among the
patrons as I was showed to my seat (waitresses ass though nice
wasn't skinny enough to hold my undivided attention).
Yes, they serve alcohol, and I should note, there wasn't a chance
in Hell that place would have been successfully robbed, at least on
that night.
|8.17.09 @ 10:11PM|#
It is very fitting that someone from the Woodrow Wilson
International Center would be worried about anti-government
protesters
And race war.
|8.17.09 @ 10:14PM|#
Sen. Specter arrogantly tells his constituents, "I don't have to be here. I'm not getting paid extra." They yell back, "You work for us." Stiehm finds this "coarse," "un-American," and "undermining civil society." Specter is SUCH a victim.
|8.17.09 @ 10:17PM|#
"Anyone want to start a pot and guns party? Bongs and
Bullets?"
Hello, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms? I'm trying to find
a handgun that goes well with 12 year old Glenlivet and a Cohiba.
What can you recommend?
|8.17.09 @ 10:48PM|#
We've all heard the old saw that when the people fear the
government there is tyranny, and when the government fears the
people, there is liberty. I'm seeing a lot more fear on the part of
the congress at least in these town hall meetings than I can
remember in my lifetime.
-jcr
|8.17.09 @ 10:50PM|#
Jamie Stiehm is a fetus in need of a medical
procedure.
I'll have to remember that one. There are many larval politicians
to whom it applies.
-jcr
|8.17.09 @ 11:39PM|#
Greensboro rules...if that's in North Carolina which you speak
of. Go back in 5 years...the waitress will move onto
hooters...
"I enjoyed a meal about a month ago at a Long Horn Steak House in
Greensboro. I counted several concealed weapon bulks among the
patrons as I was showed to my seat (waitresses ass though nice
wasn't skinny enough to hold my undivided attention).
Yes, they serve alcohol, and I should note, there wasn't a chance
in Hell that place would have been successfully robbed, at least on
that night."
|8.17.09 @ 11:41PM|#
Perhaps not, but if I'm stevie williams I had a rough one last
night...
"it's already started. tiger woods killed himself..."
Paul|8.18.09 @ 1:34AM|#
"The culmination came when a grand new temple of free speech was burned down by a mob."
Don't know what a grand temple of free speech is, but from the
sound of it I'd say no-one dast blame the mob.
It's a place for quiet reflection. So shut the fuck up.
|8.18.09 @ 5:38AM|#
I enjoyed a meal about a month ago
at a Long Horn Steak House in
Greensboro.
I can't make sense of this sentence whatsoever.
jtuf|8.18.09 @ 8:13AM|#
You have to understand that Obama supporters are very dedicated to keeping debate peaceful. That's why they denounced Bill Ayers for bombing the Pentagon. Oh, wait.
Ratdog|8.18.09 @ 11:20AM|#
I'm a little confused here, Jamie Stiehm is with the Woodrow
Wilson International Center, Wilson was racist, and she's "worried"
about some race was she thinks is brewing?
what the hell does race have to do with it, and why is everything
always racial for liberals and Democrats, it gets a little tiring,
especially given the Democratic party's long history of
racism.
If this thing must be broke down along racial lines, ok, I see the
majority of threat to my liberty coming from a bunch of pasty
whites and one 0.5 black.
I expected them to resort to this garbage sooner than later, that's
why I want to be very clear that from start I've only opposed
threats to my freedom coming from Obama's Caucasian half, which is
pretty much all of them, since it's not logical his black half
wouldn't know better than to attempt to enslave me.
But, since they brought the subject up, some Americans have been
waiting for what any historically knowledgeable and honest
individual will be forced to admit is a deserved apology, or resort
to historical revisionism and deceit to justify their denial:
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/8082143/National-Black-Republican-Association-calls-on-Democrat-Party-to-apologize-for-racism
</|8.18.09 @ 12:30PM|#
since it's not logical his black half wouldn't know better
than to attempt to enslave me
If you want to get technical, his black half is Kenyan, not
American or African American. So there's a greater chance of his
ancestry being of black slavers who sold other tribes to foreigners
than of being a slave himself. But I'm not very familiar with
Kenyan history or his family's, so the facts may lay
elsewhere.
Just that he can't lay claim to any culture or experience that tens
of millions of blacks whose families have been here hundreds of
years can't.
|8.18.09 @ 12:44PM|#
"When a man brings a gun to a New Hampshire meeting, "
Did he break a law? No? Non issue.
"when long-serving Sen. Arlen Specter (D., Pa.) and Rep. John
Dingell (D., Mich.) are shouted down by hostile home crowds, then
we've got trouble."
Trouble? That's great. Gets them back in touch with their
constituents.
"when a Missouri woman tears up a poster of civil rights icon Rosa
Parks,"
Anyone ask him for a wee bit of documentation on that?
|8.19.09 @ 12:47AM|#
"The race war is inevitable. Whether it's healthcare overhaul,
the registration act, or the Sentinel initiative that brings it
about is unimportant."
I LOL'd at this, then realized there is an actual thing called the
Sentinel Initiative - but it seems non-race-war-y, so I'll go with
my initial laugh and a tip of the hat to a Marvel fan.
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