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Interested in a Political History of the "Birther" Movement?
Then Reason Contributing Editor
David Weigel has many details about the Obama-birth certificate
obsessives, over at the
Washington Independent. I don't know that I agree with
Weigel's contention that the movement "dogs Republicans" (there
being so very many other issues that have more bite than a few
barkers), but I wholeheartedly concur that this story has legs no
evidence will ever trip up, a fact that can't conceivably help the
Republican Party unless and until the mother of all Bali birth
certificates is magically produced.
Two side notes: 1) I moderated a Freedom Fest panel last week that included Heritage Foundation President Ed Fuelner, Cato Executive Vice President David Boaz, and conservative direct-mail impresario Richard Viguerie, talking mostly about issues of libertarian/conservative faultlines. The very first post-panel question from an audience member was about how the really upsetting thing was Obama's birth certificate (Viguerie, chivalrously, shared the interlocutor's concern). 2) If John McCain had won the presidency, we'd be hearing the same thing, albeit from (mostly) different people.
|7.17.09 @ 11:52AM|#
Interested in a Political History of the "Birther" Movement?
Not particularly, but I'll go read the article anyway.
|7.17.09 @ 11:54AM|#
I wonder how many birthers are actually plants trying to embarass Republicans? Of course the movement doesn't benefit Republicans. Obama will do enough to wreck the country that the GOP isn't going to need crazy citizenship concerns to win in 2012.
|7.17.09 @ 11:54AM|#
Cue LoneWacko in 3... 2...
If Obama doesn't want to admit he was born outside the US, I'd
settle for him admitting that the moon landings were faked.
|7.17.09 @ 11:57AM|#
Interested in a Political History of the "Birther"
Movement?
Not in the least; next question?
Craig|7.17.09 @ 11:57AM|#
So it doesn't matter if the president isn't really a natural
born citizen? Why should it -- the rest of the Constitution is
routinely ignored.
And yes, McCain was also ineligible -- the law naturalizing people
born in the US-controlled Panama Canal zone passed two years after
he was born, and any retroactivity doesn't apply to presidential
candidates.
Of course, Bush and Cheney were also ineligible to take office,
since they were both residents of the same state, in clear
violation of the Constitution, despite Cheney's vacation home in
Wyoming.
|7.17.09 @ 11:59AM|#
It's not about the birth certificate, but about his total
citizenship history, how it has been obscured, and how questions
about his lack of transparency have been met by distortions and
attacks instead of openness.
A taxpayer asked the campaign to establish the candidate's
eligibility. The campaign has refused. The media have colluded.
This government is likely fraudulent. It's not a small issue, and
needs to be cleared up.
|7.17.09 @ 12:02PM|#
Birthers, Truthers, Birchers - all carrying water for The
Philadelphian Conspiracy! That the "ratification" of the so-called
"Constitution" was carried out in violation of the procedures,
especially unanimity, outlined in The Articles of Confederation
somehow never bothers them!
[/sarcasm] Pikers!
Kevin
BakedPenguin|7.17.09 @ 12:03PM|#
Back when Lonewhacker was pimping the whole "birth certificate" crap, Urkobold weighed in on the Obama citizenship thing.
|7.17.09 @ 12:22PM|#
McCain was also ineligible -- the law naturalizing people
born in the US-controlled Panama Canal zone passed two years after
he was born, and any retroactivity doesn't apply to presidential
candidates.
McCain's parents were both US citizens, which, as I recall, means
it wouldn't matter where he was born.
Not sure what the law said when Obama was born about kids who have
only one US citizen as a parent.
To me, the real mystery is why this hasn't been instantly put to
bed by simply producing the original Hawaii birth certificate,
rather than a certificate from Hawaii saying they have one,
somewhere, honest. Its probably just the reflexes of the Chicago
machine that surrounds Obama to coverup and obfuscate, even when
they don't need to, but that hardly casts a positive light on The
One, does it?
Mike in PA|7.17.09 @ 12:24PM|#
Since I think most conspiracy nuts are, well... nuts, my
inclination is to disregard any of this "not born in the U.S."
crap. But, dammit, it's like the administration is bending over
backwards to keep this thing going! Just put an end to it all,
already!
The real conspiracy is why they want to keep the so-called
controversy alive. But to believe that, I'd have to cross the line
over into nutdom.
IceTrey|7.17.09 @ 12:26PM|#
Neither Obama nor McCain are eligible to be President. Obama's father was a foreigner and McCain was born outside the country. This means neither was a natural born citizen.
|7.17.09 @ 12:27PM|#
So that's where Weigel went. I figured he got a job with Obama administration after all his pre-election shilling.
|7.17.09 @ 12:28PM|#
R C Dean,
While I don't agree with it, I imagine they are thinking along the
lines that even if they get the "real" one, the ones that don't
care about facts will just howl about that one as well. My take is
that they are just not acknowledging the Birthers at all in order
to deny them credibility.
They should let a pet "objective" journalist do it, and then laugh
it off when the Birthers don't stop.
24AheadDotCom|7.17.09 @ 12:32PM|#
Matt Welch:
You've occasionally read my site, do you think I'd just start
making things up? Do you think I'm easily confused? Certainly, you
probably disagree with me on many things, but do you think I would
push a story so hard if I weren't telling the truth?
So, go read my coverage of the
Obama certificate issue.
My notice that libertarians engage in childish ad homs applies
double in this case. Not even one person has ever been able to
point to anything I've gotten wrong at that page. Instead, they
simply don't read it and say things based on what they think is
there. Or, they just scan it and then make things up. Not even one
person has ever attempted to challenge my argument. That will
assuredly happen again in this case, so the reader should compare
what's at that page above with any comments that follow.
Note also the challenge at the link above; if anyone doubts what I
say then do the reporting that Weigel refuses to do by simply
picking up the phone.
And, of course, note the recent entries with more examples of
various sources covering up for BHO.
Go take a look at the link, and see all the things that Weigel and
others won't tell their readers.
David Weigel|7.17.09 @ 12:34PM|#
I'd say that this has definitely dogged a few Republicans. Rep.
Bill Posey (R-Fla.) was only in his job for two months when he
introduced a bill demanding birth certificates from presidential
candidates, and he became the subject of jokes on "The Colbert
Report," a negative editorial from his hometown paper, etc and etc.
Kris Kobach, whom I use in the lede of the story, had to walk back
from a joke about Obama's birth certificate.
It's just bad news in general to be seen as a politician or party
that's obsessed with conspiracy theories. Rep. Cynthia McKinney
(D-Ga.) lost her House seat (the first time) because she appeared
on a small lefty radio show and asked, in a roundabout way, whether
Bush knew about 9/11 in advance. Boom -- from obscure lefty to
national laughingstock. And we all remember how Ron Paul had to
push back against allegations that he was a 9/11 conspiracy
theorist after a Truther group asked him leading questions and
uploaded the video to YouTube.
Matt Welch|7.17.09 @ 12:37PM|#
You've occasionally read my site, do you think I'd just
start making things up?
Strangely, I'm pretty sure I've never written word about your
coverage of this issue.
|7.17.09 @ 12:38PM|#
R C Dean
The birth certificate the campaign put on line is the document you
get if you ask for a BC from the State of Hawaii. I know, it's
identical to the ones I got when I applied for mine in 01 or
02.
Now since we haven't seen the actual document but only a facsimile
on line there's no saying that it isn't a photoshopped
forgery.
Oh, wait, if you RTFA, you'll see this:
"It's crazy," said Janice Okubo, director of communications for the Hawaii Department of Health. "I don't think anything is ever going to satisfy them."
Okubo, who said that she gets weekly questions from Obama 'Birthers' that are "more like threats," explained that the certificate of live birth reproduced by Obama's campaign should have debunked the conspiracy theories. "If you were born in Bali, for example," Okubo explained, "you could get a certificate from the state of Hawaii saying you were in Bali. You could not get a certificate saying you were born in Honolulu. The state has to verify a fact like that for it to appear on the certificate. But it's become very clear that it doesn't matter what I say. The people who are questioning this bring up all these implausible scenarios. What if the physician lied? What if the state lied? It's just become an urban legend at this point."
IOW an official of the State has gone as far as she legally can to
verify that it is legitimate.
Dave Weigel|7.17.09 @ 12:38PM|#
Lonewacko, could you stop lying for a second? You write:
... if anyone doubts what I say then do the reporting that
Weigel refuses to do by simply picking up the phone.
The funny thing is that I talked to the Hawaii Department of Health
for the second time in eight months. Instead of pointing me to
their statement, as they did in December, they debunked the "maybe
the certificate could say he was born in another country"
theory.
"It's crazy," said Janice Okubo, director of communications for
the Hawaii Department of Health. "I don't think anything is ever
going to satisfy them."
Okubo, who said that she gets weekly questions from Obama
'Birthers' that are "more like threats," explained that the
certificate of live birth reproduced by Obama's campaign should
have debunked the conspiracy theories. "If you were born in Bali,
for example," Okubo explained, "you could get a certificate from
the state of Hawaii saying you were in Bali. You could not get a
certificate saying you were born in Honolulu. The state has to
verify a fact like that for it to appear on the certificate. But
it's become very clear that it doesn't matter what I say. The
people who are questioning this bring up all these implausible
scenarios. What if the physician lied? What if the state lied? It's
just become an urban legend at this point."
Hawai'i has confirmed what you said it wouldn't confirm. So stop
lying already.
|7.17.09 @ 12:40PM|#
So, go read my coverage of the Obama certificate issue.
Why? It's all a bunch of bullshit.
Wow, what a coinkidink at 12:38pm. Gret minds, I guess. :)
Enyap|7.17.09 @ 12:45PM|#
"But, dammit, it's like the administration is bending over
backwards to keep this thing going!"
I was be surprised if it was. What better way to bring out the
crazy and cause the Republicans to shot theirself in the foot.
Warty|7.17.09 @ 12:51PM|#
Hard question: when did Hawaii acquire an apostrophe? Be careful, I'm putting your answers on Youtube.
David Weigel|7.17.09 @ 12:52PM|#
Reason's #1 former fake libertarian Obama stooge is
back!
The truth is I never left you.
|7.17.09 @ 12:52PM|#
The "birthers" that have you both ways, of course, are the "he's
not a citizen because his father was a foreigner" ones. That way it
doesn't matter what the birth certificate says.
The funny thing is that they cite some SC decision as saying that a
NBC must have both parents be citizens. Which is bullshit since the
only time that is mentioned in the decision ist to dismiss it from
consideration.
I like the "birthers" because of the delicious mix of ignorant and
crazy they bring. They're simply the bestest conpiracy theorists
ever.
The JFK and 9/11 nuts are pikers compared to them.
|7.17.09 @ 1:03PM|#
Warty - The apostrophe in Hawaii is an illegal immigrant and should be deported back to Punctuatistan.
|7.17.09 @ 1:06PM|#
The JFK and 9/11 nuts are pikers compared to
them.
Dunno 'bout that, Isaac. The troofers possess a veritable
cornucopia of insanity coupled with an almost superhuman ability to
deny reality.
I'd call it a wash.
|7.17.09 @ 1:12PM|#
If the birther movement dogs the Republicans, why didn't the truther movement dog the Democrats? Weigel commits the common slander that no Democrat is responsible for the whackos on the left but every Republican is responsible for the whackos on the Right.
Mike M.|7.17.09 @ 1:16PM|#
So that's where Weigel went. I figured he got a job with
Obama administration after all his pre-election
shilling.
Yeah, if Obama isn't paying him, he should be.
I just hope that Mr. Welch isn't going to make us endure yet
another round of this B.S. when the next election comes.
|7.17.09 @ 1:16PM|#
the author is correct, but only in that people would say the
same about mccain. this is because neither mccain nor obama are
actually eligible. i look forward to the rest of you finding that
out in the next couple of years and assume if that happens you will
happily apologies to all the you ridiculed.
as an aside, i am not american, nor do i live in america. i have
studied this subject however, as a law student, and have drawn my
conclusions accordingly.
why not actually investigate it properly... this is the trouble
with journalists today. all useless jorbs-worths, or in someone's
pocket.
24AheadDotCom|7.17.09 @ 1:17PM|#
1. I wasn't accusing Matt Welch of accusing me of making things
up. I was referring to the smear campaign conducted by Weigel, Ben
Smith, and many other MSM reporters in which they try to portray
anyone who discusses the truth about this issue as tinfoil hat
wearing birthers.
2. Weigel is either accusing Okubo of committing a crime,
or she has in fact committed a crime. She cannot, under HI
law, reveal anything on a certificate. And, that would include
verifying what's on a certificate.
So, Weigel, which is it? Are you falsely accusing her of committing
a crime, or has she committed a crime?
24AheadDotCom|7.17.09 @ 1:20PM|#
Also, here's a recent
example of Janice Okubo either lying or being wrong.
She recently told someone that there's only one form of cert that
they've given out since the 80s. Yet, someone has posted a copy of
an entirely different form of a cert he says he got in 1998.
Once again: Okubo says the only form of cert they've given out
since the 80s is the same form as that pictured on BHO's sites (one
of which has since disappeared).
Yet, there's a picture available online of a much more detailed
form of a cert that someone else claims to have received in
1998.
Was Okubo lying, or was she just wrong? Is she actually an expert
on their procedures, or just a frequently-confused front
person?
24AheadDotCom|7.17.09 @ 1:23PM|#
Isaac Bartram falsely accuses all those labeled as "birthers" of
believing the same things.
Does the reader find any of Isaac Bartram's characterizations at my
link above? (the answer is, of course, no).
|7.17.09 @ 1:25PM|#
In other conspiracy news, NASA plans on taking pictures of the
Apollo 11 landing site with their new Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter.
Everybody get out your PhotoshopFake Detectors!
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,533536,00.html
It seems the wingnuts will have all kinds of stuff to do in the
next few weeks.
|7.17.09 @ 1:26PM|#
Criminy LoneDipShit -
Are you a masochist seeking abuse at a site for adults because you
just can;t afford the Latina dominatrix you yearn for?
|7.17.09 @ 1:27PM|#
The birther arguement is that if you are a US citizen born
abroad, you can get a birth certificate that says you are born in
that state. Lets say your mother is visting family in Canada and
goes into labor and you are born in a Canadian hospital. It is a
pain in the ass to try to do things like get a social security card
or enroll in school with a foreign birth certficate. So what states
do is let the parents register and get a birth certificate in that
state just like the kid was born there, provided of course that the
parents are residents of that state.
So the argument is that Obama's mother was visiting Kenya planning
the destruction of Western Civilization and had Obama (some
versions of this give the birth as occuring as a part of vodoo
right where the devil himself participated but I digress). Her
being a resident of Hawaii and not wanting to screw with getting a
Kenyan birth certificate or having to explain to schools and such
that no her kid really is a citizen, goes back to Hawaii, explains
the situation and gets a Hawaian birth certificate.
This is a situation that really does happen in real life. My
question is when you get a birth certificate in a state for a
foreign born baby, what is listed as the place of birth for that
baby? I think it is at least possible, but unlikly, that state
officials fudge the place of birth for the ease of record keeping
and to abide by the rule that birth certificates are only issued
for babies born in that state. But I don't know.
For the record I am not a birther. But I think Reason ought to get
the argument right. The birthers are not argueing that the
certificate is fake, just not acurate.
Joel|7.17.09 @ 1:32PM|#
do you think I'd just start making things up? Do you think
I'm easily confused?
Are these serious questions?
IceTrey|7.17.09 @ 1:33PM|#
The problem with Okubo's statement is that Hawaii would issue a birth certificate upon affirmation by a relative. In other words for example if a baby was born in Hawaii, at home, a year later you could go to the government and say "I affirm that this baby was born here in Honolulu" and you would get a BC saying that.
David Weigel|7.17.09 @ 1:33PM|#
Weigel commits the common slander that no Democrat is
responsible for the whackos on the left but every Republican is
responsible for the whackos on the Right.
Dude, read the article. Did 10 Democratic members of Congress
sponsor a bill asking the president to provide proof that he didn't
knock down the WTC?
Dave Weigel|7.17.09 @ 1:35PM|#
The problem with Okubo's statement is that Hawaii would
issue a birth certificate upon affirmation by a
relative.
No, it wouldn't.
Here's the statute. Only legal guardians can request birth
certificates, and the state can ask for any proof that its
investigators want.
Seitz|7.17.09 @ 1:38PM|#
John,
Asked:
My question is when you get a birth certificate in a state for
a foreign born baby, what is listed as the place of birth for that
baby?
And Answered:
"If you were born in Bali, for example," Okubo explained, "you
could get a certificate from the state of Hawaii saying you were in
Bali. You could not get a certificate saying you were born in
Honolulu. The state has to verify a fact like that for it to appear
on the certificate.
As for LoneDipshit:
She cannot, under HI law, reveal anything on a certificate.
And, that would include verifying what's on a
certificate.
She didn't, you fucking moron. She explained how information gets
on to the COLB. Since Obama's COLB is publicly available, one can
infer what is on his actual long form birth certificate. She didn't
"reveal" anything that wasn't already public information.
Though it's funny how much effort he'll spend trying to prove that
Obama isn't a citizen, yet accepts without question a statement
from some douchebag who "claimed" to WingNut Daily that he received
his long form certificate in 1998. Hell, even his source for the
information thinks its possible that the guy is lying.
|7.17.09 @ 1:39PM|#
"Dude, read the article. Did 10 Democratic members of Congress
sponsor a bill asking the president to provide proof that he didn't
knock down the WTC?"
Ten out of how many 100 Republican members in congress? Further,
last I looked Cyncian McKinney was in Congress when she endorsed
trutherism. If I looked hard enough, I am sure I could find lots of
crazy out of the mainstream things that at least 10 Democratic
members in Congress have endorsed. But you will never hold the
Democrats responsible for those views. Face it Dave, there is no
sin that you don't find to be a scourge to the Republicans and
excusable for Democrats. Joe Boyle was more fair minded than
you.
|7.17.09 @ 1:42PM|#
Thanks Seitz,
So the birthers are left with the claim that the Obama family lied
to Hawaii to get his certificate to show that he was born in
Hawaii. This seems pretty unlikly. Why would they? If anything,
they would be less likly to lie about it than other people. His
mother was a communist anti-American whackjob. I am quite sure in
their circles it was considered cool or even admirable to have your
kid be born overseas instead of in the belly of the American beast.
I can think of no possible motivation for the family to lie about
his place of birth. But, maybe Lonewhacko can.
|7.17.09 @ 1:43PM|#
I LOVE IT!!!
After all these months of 24AheadDotCom shrieking his challenge to
Dave Weigel to call Janice Okubo, he called her and she confirmed
what he's been telling us all along.
Good old 24AheadDotCom is squirming like mad. It's a beautiful
thing to see.
Let's see if he continues with his lies.
|7.17.09 @ 1:46PM|#
John, it isn't hard to get SS cards for children with foreign
birth certificates as long as there is no dispute as to either
their citizenship or immigration status.
I don't know exactly who registers the births of their foreign born
children back home. Nobody I know has, not even the Vice-Consul I
spoke to at the US Consulate in Toronto who had four kids each born
in different countries.
It is a good idea to report the birth to the nearest Consulate,
however, as this will help to avoid any disputes as to citizenship
later.
moman|7.17.09 @ 1:50PM|#
24
Don't take this as an ad hom. Take it as advice from someone in the
business of web design. Drop the bold face. It makes you seem
hysterical.
|7.17.09 @ 1:54PM|#
"I don't know exactly who registers the births of their foreign
born children back home. Nobody I know has, not even the
Vice-Consul I spoke to at the US Consulate in Toronto who had four
kids each born in different countries."
I talked to some people in USCIS and I am told some people do.
Also, I think a foreign birth certificate was a bigger pain in the
ass in the past than it is now. Now you get a SS number at birth.
You didn't used to until you were old enough to work. Until then,
your birth certificate was your primary means of identification.
Now, you have a Social Security Card so there is less need.
|7.17.09 @ 1:59PM|#
Isaac Bartram falsely accuses all those labeled as "birthers" of believing the same things.
O, really. Actually, no, I specifically identified two distinct
types of insane peoplebirthers without excluding any
other possible variations of insane peoplebirthers
that might exist.
Hey, when you're making shit up or distorting facts there are
endless variations on how to do it. :)
|7.17.09 @ 2:00PM|#
Joe Boyle was more fair minded than you.
I nominate any reference to joe be added to the drinking game. I'm
ready to get fucked up.
|7.17.09 @ 2:14PM|#
So the birthers are left with the claim that the Obama family lied to Hawaii to get his certificate to show that he was born in Hawaii.
More than that. Having gotten this bonanza of the fraudulent birth
registration forty-plus years before Obama and his campaign
officials perjured themselves on election affidavits in all of the
fifty[-seven] states. :)
Furthermore, while officials of the HI Dept of Health are barred
from giving out private info, I'm fairly sure that anyone with
knowledge of this kind of alleged wrongdoing (ie anyone who had
seen the purported original registration form) could quite legally
report it to the approriate authorities (the Atty-Gen of HI,
perhaps?) for investigation. Indeed they might possible be legally
required to. Could be wrong though.
Besides does anyone really believe that if there were anything to
this the Clinton Machine wouldn't have found it?
|7.17.09 @ 2:22PM|#
So the birthers are left with the claim that the Obama
family lied to Hawaii to get his certificate to show that he was
born in Hawaii. This seems pretty unlikly. Why would
they?
To make it that much harder for his Kenyan father in a custody
fight?
I know, its a stretch.
Only legal guardians can request birth certificates, and the
state can ask for any proof that its investigators want.
That seems . . . weak.
Seriously, somewhere on file is the actual birth certificate. Those
things are permanently archived. Why leave the door open to all
this back-and-forth about the state issued affirmation? Why not
just release the real one?
Besides does anyone really believe that if there were anything
to this the Clinton Machine wouldn't have found it?
To me, that's the killer argument.
|7.17.09 @ 2:25PM|#
"Seriously, somewhere on file is the actual birth certificate.
Those things are permanently archived. Why leave the door open to
all this back-and-forth about the state issued affirmation? Why not
just release the real one?"
That is the bizzare question. The facimilies touted by the media
really don't end the issue. The actual no kidding raised seal copy
of the birth certificate on file in Hawaii really does end the
issue. I don't understand why they don't produce it. It makes no
sense. Then there are wierd things like the Army refusing to file
charges against the Florida Reservist who refused to deploy based
on objections to Obama's birth certificate. Any reservist who
refuses to deploy ought to be prosecuted, especially those who do
for dopey reasons like Obama's birth certificate.
In the end though, I just can't believe that if any of this were
true, the Clintons wouldn't have leaked the real birth certificate
shortly after BO's 2004 convention speech when it became apparent
he had a shot in 2008.
|7.17.09 @ 2:29PM|#
If the Clinton Machine and the Chicago Machine are one in the same, as I suspect, then you could understand why it never came out. Or you could also say, if this is all a false flag diversion, who other than the Clintons would come up with it? This is the conspiracy thread, right?
|7.17.09 @ 2:36PM|#
All this thread needs now is Dave W (not Weigel, the semi-Truther commenter) telling us how Flight 93 was ordered by Cheney to be shot down by a dinosaur in an F-15.
|7.17.09 @ 2:36PM|#
It is an interesting thought experiment to imagine it being true. If definitive proof arrived in the mail tommorow showing BO was born in Kenya, what would you do with it? How would people react? What a mess. I could imagine that some people would burn it for the good of the country and avoiding a Constitutional crisis or the horror of Joe Biden being President.
24AheadDotCom|7.17.09 @ 2:43PM|#
Here's the
law against revealing information.
If Weigel got Okubo to verify that what they have on file matches
what's on BHO's site (one of which was taken offline recently),
then she's broken that law.
If she didn't verify that there's an exact match, then Weigel did
nothing but mislead again. As it is now, the "COLB" is actually
just a picture on a webpage. It's not the actual paper document
that's been verified with the state or that's been shown to, say, a
panel of judges working with accredited document experts.
|7.17.09 @ 2:47PM|#
John, I must confess that I've gotten to the point where I can't
imagine Biden being worse that BO.
I really wanted to like Obama, but than was back when I thought he
would govern from the center like Clinton.
We can only hope that some good young turk republicans like the
class of 94 (only with some real desire for small
government) can take at least the House in '10.
Divided government and some opposition to this overreach is what we
need.
As I've said before, there are plenty of good sane reasons to hate
Obama. Imagining paranoid fantasies isn't necessary.
|7.17.09 @ 2:53PM|#
24 still squirming, squirming, squirming!
Janice Okubo revealed nothing about the contents of Obama's vital
records.
What she said was that Hawaii only issues COLBs that say people
were born in Honolulu to people who were born in Honolulu.
The truth's a bitch, ain't it?
Come on, squirm some more for us!
|7.17.09 @ 2:56PM|#
Isaac,
I felt the same way you did. I was circumspect about the election.
I figured the Bond markets and the better judgement of the
Democratic Party would talk some sense to Obama. And he would do
the right thing for the wrong reasons.
I wonder about his psychological makeup. Here is a guy who was
abadoned by his deadbeat African father, but seems to idolize him.
Here is a guy who was raised by a white family but dumped his white
girlfriend out of a desire to be more black and as soon as he got
to Chicago started going to Wright's black church. It had to have
totally sucked growing up the half breed kid you grand parents are
raising because both your parents wouldn't do it. Being rejected by
your parents does strange things to you. Some people totally reject
everything their parents were. Others totally embrace everything
about their parents and try to be just like them in hopes of
gaining acceptance. Obama seems to have done the latter and that
scares me considering who is parents were.
Jim Treacher|7.17.09 @ 3:02PM|#
I tend to be skeptical, for the simple reason that if it were true, Hillary would be president.
Seitz|7.17.09 @ 3:02PM|#
Why leave the door open to all this back-and-forth about the
state issued affirmation? Why not just release the real
one?"
I can think of two reasons:
1) Nothing they reveal at this point, short of inventing a time
machine to transfer people back to the moment of his birth, will
satisfy the psychos. If they release a long form certificate now,
it will be attacked as a forgery, and people will say "if it's
real, then why didn't they release it before? They've obviously
delayed so that they'd have enough time to make a forgery".
2) Why would they want to? It's had no affect on his agenda, and
warranted or not, it only makes the base look crazy by association.
If your opponents are digging themselves into a hole, keep handing
them shovels.
Certainly there's a potential that the birfers gain some sort of
purchase, but whoever is making the decisions in the administration
don't appear worried about that.
Mike M.|7.17.09 @ 3:05PM|#
As I've said before, there are plenty of good sane reasons
to hate Obama. Imagining paranoid fantasies isn't
necessary.
That's my take on it as well. Whether Stanley Dunham squeezed him
out in Queens Hospital or a mud hut makes no difference now. It's
irrelevant and a moot point; the guy is the President and he isn't
going anywhere for a while.
It's also a major and unnecessary distraction from the extremely
dangerous things this government is trying to shove through as fast
as they possibly can, and one that his shills like Weigel are more
than happy to use in an effort to distract us all from what's truly
important.
PunditJoe|7.17.09 @ 3:38PM|#
Some would prefer to tilt at windmills than to fight
nationalization of industry, nationalization of healthcare, and the
burdens cap & trade. Make no mistake about it - all this
"birther" talk only serves our ideological opponents by sapping
energy and credibility from our side.
Do you hear me birthers? Those are not giants you see and you are
not helping us by attacking them.
24AheadDotCom|7.17.09 @ 3:46PM|#
Busted!
I just called JaniceOkubo (the spokeswoman in Weigel's article),
and
she refused to confirm the impression that Weigel is trying to
give.
If you trust Weigel's reporting, see the link.
|7.17.09 @ 3:49PM|#
I nominate any reference to joe be added to the drinking
game. I'm ready to get fucked up.
Seconded!
|7.17.09 @ 3:52PM|#
busted? you gotta be kidding. weigel never said what you're
claiming he said, no wonder okubo refused to confirm it.
what a dork you are!
Seitz|7.17.09 @ 3:58PM|#
For those who don't want to feel like they have to take a shower
after clicking one of LoneDipshit's links:
I repeatedly asked her to respond with a "yes" or a "no" as to
whether she had verified that there's a match, and she repeatedly
responded by noting that she is not the registrar, and that she
does not have the authority to verify certificates.
Which is 100% consistent with what she told Weigel. She never
claimed to have verified it. Weigel never claimed that she claimed
that she verified it. She claimed that "the state" (presumably
someone with the authority to do so) must verify that that the COLB
accurately reflects the original long form certificate.
So it kinda goes like this:
Lonedipshit: Please verify something that you never claimed!!
Okubo: No
Lonedipshit: A-ha!!
|7.17.09 @ 4:20PM|#
So Loneacko is stalking some low level bureaucrat in Hawaii? How exactly do you go about confronting that woman?
|7.17.09 @ 4:20PM|#
Just to play Dipshit's Advocate here:
So, it sounds to me like Okubo has confirmed that she has never
verified the accuracy of the certificate that Hawaii issued. That's
hardly a a knock on the birthers, is it?
I agree that this is a complete dead end. No way in a dozen hells
would the SCOTUS remove him from office, even if there was
incontrovertible evidence that he was born in Soviet Russia of a
Polish peasant woman and a Ugandan general and raised by the
KGB.
Congress wouldn't remove him if there was footage on YouTube of
Obama roasting live puppies while making child bukkake porn.
Still, I find it entertaining.
|7.17.09 @ 4:28PM|#
RC -- That's right. I think we all agree it would be illegal for
Okubo to make any comment about what's on Obama's birth
certificate.
The point of Weigel's conversation with her was to dispel the myth
that Hawaii issued Certifications of Live Birth just like Obama's
to people born outside the country. She made it clear that that was
contrary to their practice.
Is it a knock on the birthers? Well, it's certainly a knock on any
of the birthers who claim that a COLB saying you were born in
Honolulu doesn't prove that you were born in Honolulu.
Dave Weigel|7.17.09 @ 4:49PM|#
God help me, I clicked on the link. From Lonewacko:
I repeatedly asked Okubo to confirm that she had verified that
what's on file matches what's shown on Obama's sites and
others.
The Hawaii Department of Health has previously confirmed that image
that Obama put on the FightTheSmears site came from the Hawaii
Department of Health. They did this during the first wave of the
conspiracy theory, when kooks were speculating that the image was
forged. It wasn't, so the Lonewackos of the world moved the
goalposts and said that this didn't prove that Obama was born in
Hawaii. I asked Okubo if the information on this image was
consistent with a birth certificate given to someone born in
Hawaii. She said it was.
Lonewacko keeps getting proven wrong, and keeps reacting by
hounding reasonable people who have better things to do.
|7.17.09 @ 5:01PM|#
"I asked Okubo if the information on this image was consistent
with a birth certificate given to someone born in Hawaii. She said
it was."
Of course it is. The things lists Honolulu as the place of birth.
That is hardly a revelation. The question is does it accurately
represent what the actual but never seen birth certificate says.
Lonewacko's claim is that the birth certificate provided by Obama
is not acurate and that somewhere in the bowels of the Hawaii
archives there is a real one that says he was born in Kenya.
In a sense the Lonewackos are right, that doesn't prove that he was
born in Hawaii, it only proves that someone in the government of
Hawaii is prepared to swear that the birth certificate they have
but won't release says that he was.
Lonewacko apparently asked this woman if she had actually seen the
real birth certificate and could verify that yes that is what it
said. She said no. She could only verify that yes, this is what a
birth certificate from Hawaii looks like and yes it appears that
the state says he was born in Hawaii not Kenya. But that begs the
question of who in the State Government has actually seen the birth
certificate and swearing to what it actually says and if they are
lying.
Jesus Dave. I am not a birther but you are doing an incredibly
shitty job responding to this guy.
24AheadDotCom|7.17.09 @ 5:01PM|#
Weigel: you're lying. The DOH has never once said what you
imagine them saying. Let's see your original
source for that claim with them definitively stating what
you claim. Not: that doesn't include ambiguous statements, and by
original source I mean not a source like FactCheck or
Snopes(!).
Let's see the original, unambiguous source.
If you can't provide that, you're lying (again).
Art-P.O.G.|7.17.09 @ 5:03PM|#
I should clarify the reason I'm chiding LoneWacko...he keeps
giving a certain reefer-mad avian awesome ammunition for hilarious
satire.
Also, dude moves the goalposts all the time, seems to have wicked
confirmation bias while also seemingly unaware of any of his biases
at all.
Art-P.O.G.|7.17.09 @ 5:04PM|#
24, I didn't realize you had the credibility to call anyone else
unreliable.
Looks like I'll have to radically adjust my worldview.
24AheadDotCom|7.17.09 @ 5:05PM|#
John writes: Lonewacko's claim is that the birth certificate
provided by Obama is not acurate and that somewhere in the bowels
of the Hawaii archives there is a real one that says he was born in
Kenya.
Obviously, John has the same reading problems as Weigel. I have
never once said that the cert provided by BHO (as a picture on a
webpage or supposedly in paper form to FactCheck) "is not
accurate".
My claim is that we don't know.
There's a world of difference between those two that incredibly
obvious to me. I understand how different people have different
capabilities, but if you can't figure out the difference then
perhaps you should leave discussions of this matter to those who
can.
|7.17.09 @ 5:08PM|#
Lonewhacko,
If the birth certificate provided by Obama is acurate, the argument
is over. You by necessity must claim it is inaccurate or that there
is a good probablility it is or you are just wasting people's
time.
24AheadDotCom|7.17.09 @ 5:08PM|#
Also, despite all the smears launched by Weigel, BenSmith, and
their fellow hacks, my goal with this isn't to prove that BHO isn't
eligible; I think there's a very great chance that he is.
My goals are two-fold:
1. Discredit MSM reporters who've lied about this issue. I'm going
after bigger fish than Weigel, but he keeps getting in the
way.
2. And, of much less importance, get BHO to release his
other records. I have a feeling that there must be
something he doesn't want to reveal. That is simply my impression,
and, to make this clear to the BHO cultists, I'm not making any
claims in that regard.
Art-P.O.G.|7.17.09 @ 5:10PM|#
I have a feeling that there must be something he doesn't want to reveal.
You think a politician has something to cover up? You're crazy, man.
24AheadDotCom|7.17.09 @ 5:13PM|#
John: Is the first picture here
valid? If you say it is, how do you know? Has it been verified by
the issuing agency? Has it been modified before being put on the
web? How do you know?
Isn't there the possibility that the first picture was modified?
That's a yes or no question: isn't there that possibility?
OK, now doesn't the same possibility apply to the second
picture?
In fact, both could have been modified, and the probability of that
depends on your level of trust in the source.
In other words - try and wrap your mind around this - you're going
on faith and not the facts. If hacks like Weigel simply admitted
that, there wouldn't be an issue. The problem is when they present
something as fact when it's based on faith.
David Weigel|7.17.09 @ 5:13PM|#
Lonewacko - The 10/31/08 letter from Chiyome Fukino.
I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai'i, along with
the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to
oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally
seen and verified that the Hawai'i State Department of Health has
Sen. Obama's original birth certificate on record in accordance
with state policies and procedures.
No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever
instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different
from any other vital record in the possession of the State of
Hawai'i.
You're pissed off that the state didn't add a redundant statement
about how the Certification of Live Birth that reproduces the vital
information on the original birth certificate is, indeed, a
Certification of Live Birth that reproduces the vital information
on the original birth certificate. I get that. You're not very
smart and you like to yell at people on the Internet. Hey, to each
his own.
Art-P.O.G.|7.17.09 @ 5:20PM|#
In other words - try and wrap your mind around this - you're going on faith and not the facts. If hacks like Weigel simply admitted that, there wouldn't be an issue. The problem is when they present something as fact when it's based on faith.
I didn't realize you were a philosopher, 24. How far does your interest in epistemology extend, LW?
|7.17.09 @ 5:22PM|#
DAve,
That is a wierd letter. It doesn't really say anything. It says the
following:
1. The state of hawaii has his original birth certificate and
maintains it in accordance with proper records and procedures,
and
2. No one has ever instructed that the birth certificate be handled
in any manner different from procedure.
There are a couple of problems there. First, strcitly speaking,
producing an inaccurate official copy is not handling the birth
certificate. Handling it in accordance with regulations seems to
mean that you keep it in the right place in the right manner. It
can, but doesn't have to relate to providing acurate copies of it
to the public.
Second and more importantly, it only says that he never instructed
anyone to handle it improperly. So what? That says nothing about
the accuracy of the birth certificate produced to the public. It
only says that if it is inaccurate, it wasn't because he or any of
hte people listed ever instructed anyone to do it.
Thta letter proves nothing. Why the hell did they write a letter
with so many equivications. Why not just say "we have the original
birth certificate, I have seen it, and the copy generally available
to the public is accurate"? Again, it makes no sense.
24AheadDotCom|7.17.09 @ 6:05PM|#
Dave Weigel: FIND A FRIGGING LAWYER
No, seriously: FIND A FRIGGING LAWYER
Don't worry: I'm not going to sue you. You just don't understand
what that HI statement says and doesn't say. A LAWYER CAN
EXPLAIN IT TO YOU.
They don't even have to be such a great lawyer. Anyone with any
sort of legal training will realize that the HI statement
does not say what you think it says.
IceTrey|7.17.09 @ 7:08PM|#
Dave Weigel,
That statute is for babies born out of state. I was talking about
babies born in Hawaii. In 1961, for a baby born some place besides
a hospital, in order to obtain a Hawaiian locale BC required
nothing more than the testimony of a witness to the birth. All of
that of course is moot since the simple fact that his father was a
foreigner makes Obama ineligible to be POTUS.
David Weigel|7.17.09 @ 8:33PM|#
From one of John's posts:
In a sense the Lonewackos are right, that doesn't prove that he
was born in Hawaii, it only proves that someone in the government
of Hawaii is prepared to swear that the birth certificate they have
but won't release says that he was.
"Maybe the government of Hawaii is lying to everyone" is not a
serious argument. The Lonewackos are continually moving the
goalposts here - remember, Hawaii only got involved in the first
place because people were "proving" that the COLB image at Obama's
fact-check site was an internet forgery. Once Hawaii debunked that
and stood by the image, people started "proving" that the COLB
could have belonged to someone who wasn't born in Hawaii. And now
Hawaii has debunked that, so the Lonewackos will argue that Hawaii
is lying. I guarantee that if Hawaii opened the vault and let
reporters take photos of the original certificate, the Lonewackos
would set about "proving" that this was a hoax.
One question I like to throw into these threads - why don't any
Birthers do some investigative work and find out if Stanley Ann
Dunham traveled out of Hawaii while pregnant? It's been a year
since these rumors began, and no one in Hawaii or anywhere else has
ever suggested that. Kenya's an anglophone nation, and I doubt
everyone there has an in-depth knowledge of American citizenship
law. And yet no one in that country has ever said "hey, check out
this hospital/house/village where Barack Obama was born!"
That's what always throws me about this. There's never been any
reason to believe that Obama's parents left Hawaii during the
pregnancy. No contemporary sources, no interviews with people who
knew them, nothing. Seems like the kind of thing you'd want to get
a shred of evidence about before assuming that the Hawaiian
government is lying to everyone.
|7.17.09 @ 10:09PM|#
Dave,
Understand I am not a birther and don't agree with Lonewacko. I
just find some people's behavior in this very curious. As far as
where his mother was at the time of his birth, that might be hard
to find. It has been almost 50 years. But you could find out where
his father was. His father is an alien and has an alien file with
the old CIS. It is sitting in a cave near Kansas City Missouri.
Since his father his dead, there is no privacy isssues. One could
file a freedom of information act request for it. That file would
tell you every time Obama's father entered and left the country and
by implication whether he was in the country when Obama was born.
If he was not, that would at least be some evidence in Lonewacko's
favor. If he was, that would put the issue to bed almost as well as
the actual birth cirtificate. I am tempted to FOIA the damned thing
myself if for no other reason than to make this issue go away.
24AheadDotCom|7.17.09 @ 10:57PM|#
Let me be very frank. I've gone easy on Weigel because, after I
saw video of him, I immediately realized he's not exactly John
McCain, in the POW sense. Weigel would break in two seconds.
I don't want him to break, but if he's going to keep lying - and
quite possibly
smearing me behind a fake name - then I'm not about to pull any
punches.
In the current case, Weigel is lying yet again. I spotted more than
I want to correct. But, does anyone with any sense think that HI's
statement that BHO has a cert on file mean that
the cert shown on his site matches the one on file? They're
forbidden by law from verifying the cert on BHO's site, and they've
repeatedly stated that they're forbidden by law from verifying the
cert, but hacks like Weigel pretend they've verified the cert? Does
that make sense to anyone?
Look, Weigel is just a hack for hire, currently blogging for a
pseudo-paper funded by Soros and Rockefeller. He's not about to go
against their grain.
Kreel Sarloo|7.17.09 @ 11:29PM|#
All of that of course is moot since the simple fact that his father was a foreigner makes Obama ineligible to be POTUS.
Bullshit!!!
|7.17.09 @ 11:34PM|#
In fact not just bullshit, but utter bullshit.
Anyone born in the USA is a natural born citizen regardless of the
citizenship of his or her parents.
So are a bunch of people born outside the borders of the
USA depending on the various laws in effect at the time.
This is what is so beautiful about "birthers".
There is no level of ignorance or stupidity they will not
display.
The most perfect entertainment.
|7.17.09 @ 11:55PM|#
IceTrey
Seriously, man, do you really think that if your bullshit doctrine
"his father was a foreigner makes Obama ineligible" were a fact
that Hillary wouldn't have gotten it excercised faster than you can
say "you ugly cunt"?
I mean, that's even dumber than Lonejerkoff's "evil illuminati
started a conspiracy to place the unborn prince on the American
throne before he was even born".
The fact is that the only reason the "both parents must be
citizens" shit is in the court case opinion your moron friends cite
is to dismiss it out of hand as a legal doctrine.
IceTrey|7.18.09 @ 12:06AM|#
Hillary didn't know what the definition of "natural born citizen" is. Not many people do. You don't.
|7.18.09 @ 9:29AM|#
Wow.
As I've said, the only reason I get involved in this is for the
comedy.
And the NBCers are the funniest birthers of all.
Mike M.|7.18.09 @ 12:20PM|#
Look, Weigel is just a hack for hire, currently blogging for
a pseudo-paper funded by Soros and Rockefeller. He's not about to
go against their grain.
Wow, I had no idea that the Center for Independent Media was really
just a Soros sockpuppet, but after doing the research it sure looks
true.
It seems like they originally came out of Media Matters for
America, and even had offices right next to each other for quite
some time, but then moved further apart from each other when people
started catching on. CIMs listed donors is a who's who of big
leftist supporting foundations, and their linkroll down at the
bottom right of the page links to most of the big lefty
websites.
Weigel is the sort of guy who fits in with an organization like
this perfectly.
|7.18.09 @ 1:43PM|#
The president and his minions ignore the citizenship
argle-bargle because it (1) gives supporters a reason to be
dismissive of every other argument of opponents and (2) makes those
opponents who are associated in any way with the "birthers" look
foolish. Why not give your opponents every opportunity to wound
themselves?
The motion to add mentions of Joe P. Boyle to the drinking game is
approved.
Art-P.O.G.|7.18.09 @ 1:47PM|#
Fuck this.
Jesse Walker asks Lonewacko ToughQuestions.
He ignores them.
I ask Lonewacko ToughQuestions.
He ignores them.
It makes one wonder what LoneWacko has to hide...
The motion to add mentions of Joe P. Boyle to the drinking game is approved.
Motion carried. But what if he actually shows up again? Drink!
Jesse Walker|7.18.09 @ 4:56PM|#
The comment where Lonewacko accused someone else of having poor reading comprehension skills was pretty funny. Especially coming on the heels of the comment where he objected to a guilt-by-association argument. What's next? Is he going to start attacking people for failing to use the space bar?
David Weigel|7.19.09 @ 4:45PM|#
I think Lonewacko's libelous assertion that a random, crude commenter at Matt Yglesias's blog is me in disguise is a perfect comment on his fact-checking skills, and the perfect way to end this thread.
Geotpf|7.20.09 @ 5:07PM|#
IceTrey | July 17, 2009, 7:08pm | #
All of that of course is moot since the simple fact that his father
was a foreigner makes Obama ineligible to be POTUS.
If one is born on US soil, one is a "natural born citizen"
automatically, no matter if one, or even both, of his or her
parents aren't citizens. A real world example that happens every
day is a child is born of a man and woman who are both illegal
immigrants from Mexico. That child, if born inside the United
States, is automatically a US citizen.
|7.20.09 @ 5:38PM|#
The reason why Hillary Clinton didn't use Obama's foreign birth
against him is that Obama threatened to release the details of
Vince Foster's murder.
I love my country but I fear my nigger terrorist muslim
president.
nairobi|7.21.09 @ 3:46AM|#
Big difference.
John McCain brought his issue up right away and he submitted his
birth certificate without having to be subpoenaed. And there is
absolutely no way John McCain would have been inaugurated without a
copy of his actual birth certificate on file.
And his school records...and his medical records...
Oliver Willis|7.21.09 @ 6:04PM|#
If John McCain had won the presidency, we'd be hearing the
same thing, albeit from (mostly) different people.
Well, you know, McCain's birthplace was just as big as an issue as
Obama's was during the election. Oh, it wasn't? You mean the
formerly semi-intelligent Matt Welch is just extricating this stuff
from his butt? Oh, I see.
|7.21.09 @ 6:23PM|#
This issue is poision. First, Hawaii only issues the
"certificates of live birth" that Obama has shown... since 2001. If
you lost your original and need a new one, the one Obama produced
is all you will get. That state law in Hawaii.
Second, the reason you don't hear Gibbs and others shouting this
from the roof tops is to keep it going... anyone who takes up this
issue can then be labled a tinfoil hat wearing goofball and have
zero credibility. Thats probley why they try to keep it out of
courts as well... the more we repeat this "show me the birth
certificate" claim, the easier it is to equate tea partiers and
obama oposers with black helicopter seeing nuts.
Its over, its a valid, VERY valid question, but its been anwsered.
Hawaii dosn't issue the type of certificate you want to see... the
one he has is what you get, pure and simple.
This issue will vaporize the credability of anyone who touches
it... please stop it now!
|7.22.09 @ 1:14AM|#
"If John McCain had won the presidency, we'd be hearing the same
thing, albeit from (mostly) different people."
Really Mr. Welch? Do you really believe this? When I recently asked
my mother to tell me where John McCain - our Senator for umpteen
years - was born she said the US. She had no idea he was born in
Panama. She also voted for B.H. Obama.
The 'birther' movement of the Rep. party only cements my move from
it. With Clinton it was Vince Foster, but I put up with it, but I
can't put up with the crap that has come out in the last few years.
They have completely and utterly lost me. I'm tired of the whipped
up hysteria and conspiracy theories this so-called party has to
offer. Unfortunately, it's the only thing they have to offer.
Also, this is why I never renewed my Reason subscription and
stopped giving to the foundation. Not because I see this as a
partisan issue, but because libertarians should be arguing that
birth place doesn't matter. Why the hell should we care where
someone is born if they have taken an oath to uphold our
Constitution? Open borders and free movement.
|7.22.09 @ 2:03AM|#
So, to summarize:
The angry, delusional nuts that now form the base of the GOP are
really eager to see PRESIDENT Biden?
Oh good Christ.
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