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Iranian Elections: What Do You Know, And Why Should They Care?
Michael Moynihan notes below quoting Richard Just from New Republic, "so many Americans of so many different political inclinations are watching a struggle over freedom in a faraway place, and are ready to take sides" (an outcome that strikes me as dangerous and to be feared, by the way, not to be cheered, as it's the impetus to all sorts of potentially dangerous and destructive actions on the part of the U.S. government). Ryan Sager at the True/Slant site wonders what's behind all this side-taking:
I believe the Iranian election was stolen. Millions of Americans believe the same. Millions of Iranians believe the same.
But how, exactly, have we come to hold this opinion?....
....many Americans are constructing a narrative where the great mass of Iranians wanted to throw out Ahmadinejad — despite the fact that some 40%-50% of Iranians, in the best polls we have, were perfectly happy to reelect him.
It seems a few common errors are occurring here....
* Projection: Americans are projecting their hatred of Ahmadinejad onto the mass of the Iranian people.
* Confirmation bias: People, on both sides, filter all the information they take in through their own preconceptions — particularly easy to do when all the information coming out of Iran is a mishmash of rumor and propaganda.
* Halo effect: Thinking only bad (or good) things about the Iranian regime makes one think all of its characteristics and actions must be bad (or good).....
Writing our own little narrative of what must be going on is unavoidable — humans need stories — but it’s worth keeping in mind at all times that we’re in the “fog of war,” and the “truth” we think we’re uniquely privy to is changing every instant.
As much as I admire the work being done by bloggers in this haze — see, of course, Andrew Sullivan — it’s doubly biased: The bloggers are looking only for anti-regime information, and the readers are absorbing only anti-regime information. If there are mistakes, these mistakes will be remembered as the truth — even if corrected.
Ron Jacobs at Counterpunch notes the subtle insinuation in New York Times reporting that American opinion on the Iranian elections should matter to Iranian voters, and asks: Why is that?
[The Times' Bill] Keller's most honest analytical statement in his entire piece: "Saturday was a day of smoldering anger, crushed hopes and punctured illusions, from the streets of Tehran to the policy centers of Western capitals." Keller and his fellow journalists accept that the desires of Western capitals, especially Washington, should be important to Iranians. While this may certainly be the case among a small number of the intelligentsia and business community in Iran, the fact is that the West, especially Washington, is still not very popular among the Iranian masses. Not only are they aware of decades of western intervention in their affairs, the fact that thousands of US troops continue to battle forces in two of Iran's neighbors makes Washington unwanted and detested. Why should they do anything to please it? Yet, in the minds of the US news media, it is Washington's needs that dominate all discussion.
|6.16.09 @ 7:03PM|#
Well, you have an election with tens of millions of paper ballots, the results are announced shortly after the polls close, and the semi-popular incumbent wins by a large margin seemingly everywhere, even in the home town of the main opposition candidate. Imagine if it was announced that John McCain had won by double digits in every state, including Illinois and Chicago. There'd have been millions in the streets here, too.
Elemenope|6.16.09 @ 7:05PM|#
Imagine if it was announced that John McCain had won by
double digits in every state, including Illinois and Chicago.
There'd have been millions in the streets here, too.
No way. Americans have grown far too lazy for that sort of
thing.
Douglas Gray|6.16.09 @ 7:11PM|#
According to Reuters, the polls going into the election showed
Ahmadinejad leading by almost a 2-1 margin. It really is hard to
determine how fair the election was, but in terms of actual voting
fraud, it may have been more fair than pundits on both the left and
the right are willing to admit.
The opposition leader, Moudavi is not a popular guy at all; his
wife wears the pants in that family. She is dynamic and well
liked.
As usual, it is more complicated than meets the eye. The Mullahs
keep the more dynamic moderate progressive types from running; They
chose Moudavi as they knew he was not strong strong enough to
defeat Ahmadinejad.
It is not so much a matter of voting fraud per se that is the
issue, rather the theocratic oversight that is inconsistent with a
truly democratic model.
|6.16.09 @ 7:16PM|#
No way. Americans have grown far too lazy for that sort of
thing.
I could see it happening if Sanjaya had won American Idol.
EJM|6.16.09 @ 7:20PM|#
FWIW, there's a new CSM interview feature on the alleged rigging. (It's very visible right now on Google News, which is where I came across it.) Also, see GlobalPost's extensive coverage.
|6.16.09 @ 7:57PM|#
The talking heads are talking about something of which they
don't have a clue, injecting their own narrative in the
process?
Tell it isn't true, my world would be crushed by the shock...
Xeones|6.16.09 @ 8:07PM|#
...makes Washington unwanted and detested. Why should they
do anything to please it?
Ha, i have something in common with Iranians then.
|6.16.09 @ 8:11PM|#
The election results in Iran may reflect the will of the Iranian people. Many experts are claiming that the margin of victory of incumbent President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was the result of fraud or manipulation, but our nationwide public opinion survey of Iranians three weeks before the vote showed Ahmadinejad leading by a more than 2 to 1 margin -- greater than his actual apparent margin of victory in Friday's election.
We don't know what's going on in Iran. That is why we (the
government) should remain quiet about the whole damn thing. And
fergawdsake, put a muzzle on that idiot Biden.
Elemenope|6.16.09 @ 8:25PM|#
On the actual point of the blog post, I think you have to read a
heckuva lot into the article to come to the conclusion that the
author of the NYT article was implying, subtly or otherwise, that
he believes *Iranians* should care what the US Government thinks of
their elections.
I read it simply as him pointing out that the election was watched,
and the results cared about, by the US government as well as the
Iranian people. Which is obviously and uncontroversially true.
|6.16.09 @ 8:42PM|#
As several of the Iranian Tweeters I've been following have
said, it's no longer just about the election. Ever since some time
yesterday, it's become about the government's brutal reaction to
the protests. The Basij are still rampaging through homes, offices,
universities and hospitals. The ferocity of the reaction surpasses
that of the 97 (or 98? I forget, too tired to look it up) student
uprisings. And the anger seems to have gone beyond the students
now. This is affecting normal people in their homes; even Iranian
government officials have been attacked in their homes.
I'm not saying that Dinnerjacket and his mullahs will fall. Just
saying the whole question of who really won doesn't matter so much
at this point.
|6.16.09 @ 9:03PM|#
The problem is that the US government has a lot of trouble keeping its grubby little fingers out of everybody's pies. The urge to interfere must be overwhelming certain elements of Washington right now (like the CIA).
Elemenope|6.16.09 @ 9:05PM|#
The urge to interfere must be overwhelming certain elements
of Washington right now (like the CIA).
Not to be cynical or anything, but what makes you think they
haven't already.
|6.16.09 @ 9:14PM|#
Oh, LMNOP, I think they have, unless Obama specifically called them off, and even then, they probably wouldn't listen. But I'm talking about serious interference, the kind that you can't keep in the (black) bag.
Mike|6.16.09 @ 9:40PM|#
"Not to be cynical or anything, but what makes you think they
haven't already."
To do that, the CIA would have to be competent, and it isn't.
Warmongering Lunatic|6.16.09 @ 9:40PM|#
The election, Mousavi vs. Ahmadinejad, was never of any real
significance, except to a marginal degree within Iran itself. So
who won the vote and whether the protesters are right about the
theft or not is irrelevant.
What is significant is that there is open conflict between the
regime Supreme Leader Khamenei (who has confirmed Ahmadinejad's
election repeatedly) and the protesters. That, not the election, is
the story, the conflict, and the issue. Maybe the initial spark was
caused by an untruth-but the explosion is very real anyway.
underzog|6.16.09 @ 9:43PM|#
It would be nice if these protests would lead to the fall of the
Mullahs (hardly likely).
Then they wouldn't bomb Israel and the U.S. That would dissapoint
the Rhoemites here, but, afterall, they're not advocates of
American interests anyway.
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
|6.16.09 @ 9:48PM|#
Imagine if it was announced that John McCain had won by
double digits in every state, including Illinois and Chicago.
There'd have been millions in the streets here, too.
No way. Americans have grown far too lazy for that sort of
thing.
Why is the left, even after they got control of congress and then
got "THE GUY" elected, (and by a pretty good margin) still so
jaded?
The Angry Optimist|6.16.09 @ 9:50PM|#
underzog, what have you been told about sneaking mommy's Manischewitz? you're going to have to go to bed without matzoh, Əyin.
|6.16.09 @ 10:04PM|#
Underzog spun the cap back on the Concord Grape Manischewitz,
then decided to take another swig. If muter thought he was such a
boychick, why did she let him use the computer? He was no
schmendrik, after all--that's why mume would kvell when he kvetched
about the meshuggene over on that web site full of goyim who he
would potch around like a bunch of nebbishes.
He heard her coming and quickly shoved the bottle back into the
pantry.
underzog|6.16.09 @ 10:05PM|#
The anti-Semitic crack from TAO could be worse. He could have
said that I was mixing Christian infant blood in the matzoh and the
blood contained alcohol to get me drunk.
Hooray for the little things!
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
Elemenope|6.16.09 @ 10:07PM|#
Then they wouldn't bomb Israel and the U.S.
Has Iran ever bombed Israel?
underzog|6.16.09 @ 10:13PM|#
Antelope... Eichmanhope (whatever your screen name is), Iran
bombed and killed 242 Marines in Beruit, using their proxies and
Reason "Ernst Rhoem Today" magazine's friend,
Hizbollah.
You just proved my point that you Rhoemites don't care about
America.
Thank you for making my job so easy.
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
|6.16.09 @ 10:16PM|#
Has Iran ever bombed Israel?
Elemenope meet Hezbollah.
Hezbollah meet Elemenope.
Now I will leave you two to enjoy your grand canyon sized cognitive
dissonance together.
Elemenope|6.16.09 @ 10:18PM|#
Antelope... Eichmanhope (whatever your screen name
is)
It's not hard. Really, it isn't. If it's too many letters for you,
you can always use LMNOP.
Schmuck.
|6.16.09 @ 10:18PM|#
Has Iran ever bombed Israel?
If you count Iranian aid to terror groups like Hezbollah and Hamas
that have attacked Israel, then yes, if indirectly.
Elemenope|6.16.09 @ 10:23PM|#
Elemenope meet Hezbollah.
Hezbollah meet Elemenope.
Yes, I'm aware of Hezbollah and their financial (and somewhat
tenuous historical) connection to Iran. However, if you think that
they march in absolute lockstep of that Iran has complete control
over them, you're crazy. Calling Hezbollah Iran is like calling the
Afghani Mujahideen the United States.
In any case, what I asked was whether one state outright bombed
another using military forces. Did the Iranian military ever
conduct bombing campaigns on Israeli soil?
underzog|6.16.09 @ 10:26PM|#
Antelope/Eichmannhope (whatever) is just using the paranoid Jews
canard. Hitler bragged about killing the Jews and then did it.
Achmadinijad will, too.
I wonder if the Libertarians will cheer Achmadinijad publicly if he
does destroy all of Israel (an easy task with nuclear
weapons)?
I put nothing past the child molestors
party.
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
Elemenope|6.16.09 @ 10:33PM|#
...is just using the paranoid Jews canard.
What. On Earth. Are you talking about? I believe Israel has every
right to defend itself, and a nuclear-armed Iran would not be good
for many reasons.
Is it because you are personally offended by me pointing out the
incontrovertible fact that you are a schmuck?
underzog|6.16.09 @ 10:43PM|#
You're full of it, Eichmannhope!
You would've been great at those gas chambers telling the poor
people there that those buildings were just bath and
disinfectant.
By the time Iran goes nuclear it will be too late -- con
artist!
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
|6.16.09 @ 10:48PM|#
Calling Hezbollah Iran is like calling the Afghani Mujahideen
the United States.
Yes the US fought a clandestine war against the Soviet Union and
did fight Soviet troops through a proxy.
and
Yes Iran is fighting a clandestine war against Israel and does bomb
Israel through a proxy.
In short yes Iran has bombed Israel.
Mad Max|6.16.09 @ 11:02PM|#
It seems that Underzog dislikes Ernst Roehm.
Do you
know who else disliked Ernst Roehm (Hint: It was the same guy
who had Roehm killed)?
Elemenope|6.16.09 @ 11:03PM|#
Joshua, fighting through a proxy (which is quite a bit less
direct than you make it sound) is not the same type of thing as
fighting directly.
It's the difference between lend-lease and US direct involvement in
WWII. You would say there's a difference, no?
The Angry Optimist|6.16.09 @ 11:06PM|#
I'm fairly convinced that underzog is a false-flag operation by
a disturbed Neo-Nazi.
I mean, "we're living Under ZOG (Zionist Occupied Government)" is
something Neo-Nazis say all the time.
Elemenope|6.16.09 @ 11:07PM|#
I mean, "we're living Under ZOG (Zionist Occupied
Government)" is something Neo-Nazis say all the time.
Yep. The other day we were taking bets on whether he was a deranged
neo-nazi or simply deranged. What a putz.
underzog|6.16.09 @ 11:11PM|#
And the British first said Yankee Doodle and we know who picked
it up from there.
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
The Angry Optimist|6.16.09 @ 11:16PM|#
ah well. that's not a bad explanation. Kind of like how Dan Savage used to title his column "Hey, Faggot!"
The Angry Optimist|6.16.09 @ 11:18PM|#
well, I also don't know what it is that underzog has against homosexuals. I mean, Rohm was a well-known homosexual, and underzog uses his name as an insult, so I can only assume underzog is a homophobe.
underzog|6.16.09 @ 11:23PM|#
Homophobe? You complain about my nickname and you use trashwords
such as homophobe?
Homophobia literally means a person who has a fear of sameness
(homo + phobia).
And my hatred for homosexuals doesn't extend to stoning
them, pushing walls upon them, and hanging them as your buddies in
Iran and the rest of the Moslem world do.
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
underzog|6.16.09 @ 11:25PM|#
Okay.... I confess! I have homophobia; i.e., fear of
sameness.
The sight of two basketballs together fills me with dread.
Feel better at my confession now?
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
Elemenope|6.16.09 @ 11:27PM|#
Homophobia literally means a person who has a fear of
sameness (homo + phobia).
Hey look! Underzog took a five-minute online course (certified!) on
Greek prefixes and suffixes!
Also, he has news for you. Did you know that "driveway" literally
means "place that you drive"?
Schmuck.
underzog|6.16.09 @ 11:57PM|#
I will prove I am not a homophobe you stupid Rhoemites! I will
send you pics of me blowing myself...would a homophobe do
that?
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
underzog|6.17.09 @ 12:06AM|#
There you have the Reasonoids refuting my arguments,
calling me the yiddish word for prick and stalking me with a clumsy
imitator who insinuates that I do things to myself that only
Ron
Jeremy can do.
At least you didn't accuse me of murdering some dyke the way you
guys smeared Michelle Malkin.
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
Elemenope|6.17.09 @ 12:12AM|#
There you have the Reasonoids refuting my
arguments
Yep.
...calling me the yiddish word for prick...
There you go, all focusing on the fact that you're a schmuck. Don't
forget schlemiel and putz! It's a Yiddish hat trick.
...and stalking me with a clumsy imitator who insinuates that I
do things to myself that only Ron Jeremy can do.
Ron Jeremy has a fan, I see. Not that there's anything wrong with
that.
|6.17.09 @ 12:21AM|#
The government has ended news coverage, arrested leaders, denied reality of what is happening, and all those people are in the street. Whatever the count, the reaction is not a 2:1 victory cry. Something is amiss.
Warmongering Lunatic|6.17.09 @ 1:17AM|#
You would say there's a difference, no?
No. Lend-Lease was an act of war, and March 11th, 1941 marks the
actual date of entry of the United States into the Second World
War.
Brett Stevens|6.17.09 @ 1:18AM|#
This is how liberal governments destroy other governments: they
sew doubt, claim moral superiority, and chide the weakest people in
those nations to accept the "moral" option.
I agree with Warmongering Lunatic: the United States and United
Kingdom conspired to enter the second world war.
The Angry Optimist|6.17.09 @ 1:25AM|#
Seems like a poor conspiracy, then, you know, getting attacked
at Pearl Harbor and all and setting the Pacific War back two
years.
Yeah, that's a helluva plan.
Warmongering Lunatic|6.17.09 @ 1:56AM|#
Hmm. See, I don't agree with you, Brett. I'd more say that FDR wanted to make war on Nazi Germany, and he did so to the extent that he could bypass Congress and cajole Congress into cooperating, always hoping to exhaust Hitler's patience.
Warmongering Lunatic|6.17.09 @ 1:59AM|#
Back on topic:
"No one in their right mind can believe" the official results from Friday's contest, Grand Ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeri said of the landslide victory claimed by Ahmadinejad. Montazeri accused the regime of handling Mousavi's charges of fraud and the massive protests of his backers "in the worst way possible."
"A government not respecting people's vote has no religious or political legitimacy," he declared in comments on his official Web site. "I ask the police and army personals (personnel) not to 'sell their religion,' and beware that receiving orders will not excuse them before God."
|6.17.09 @ 2:10AM|#
underzog is Brett Stevens? or are there that many distinct [insert insult here]s on the internet?
|6.17.09 @ 2:14AM|#
It's the difference between lend-lease and US direct
involvement in WWII. You would say there's a difference,
no?
I would say the difference is the the difference between sending
your own troops in and hiring Mercenaries to do it for
you....
Which is to say no difference at all.
We gave money and material support to the Afgan fighters to do a
job for us.
Iran does the same thing with Hezbollah.
As a left wing nut job i am sure you place the liability of the
acts of say Blackwater while they are in the employ of the state
department with the State Department no? Why be a hack when it
comes to mercenaries who happen to have a consistent political
agenda with their patrons?
The Iranians are not dishing out 60-100 million a year to Hezbollah
for nothing. They are paying them to attack Israel.
The Angry Optimist|6.17.09 @ 2:16AM|#
let's do this: agree that when underzog speaks, it's full of
dumb, and he stated that he hoped the Mullahs fall so they won't
"bomb Israel and the U.S." Presumably, he was talking about
potential future acts. Ergo, when El said "Iran hasn't done either
of these yet", strictly speaking, he's correct, in terms of rockets
and official military action and the big *NUKE* word.
so, let's drop the semantic silliness.
underzog|6.17.09 @ 2:43AM|#
Yes, TAO of Judenhass, let's drop the semantic silliness. You,
Eichmannhope, Mr. Nazi Guy, Fluffy, shewolf of the SS, and
Bake-dem-Jews-again are eliminationist anti-Semites who can't wait
for Iran to have the nuke and take care of the Zionist
entity and its 5.5 million Jews.
The wise man sees tomorrow today. He doesn't wait for Achmadinijad
or the other guy to test his nuclear bombs on Tel Aviv and
Jerusalem as if in some Libertarian narcotic stupor.
As former Pres. Bush would say, one does not wait for the knife to
be at one's throat.
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
Elemenope|6.17.09 @ 2:46AM|#
As a left wing nut job i am sure you place the liability of
the acts of say Blackwater while they are in the employ of the
state department with the State Department no?
A left-wing nutjob? Wha...?
Anyway, TAO got the point, which is that Iran has shown no
historical willingness to engage in direct acts of war with Israel,
as Underzog claimed they were chomping at the bit to do. The
political calculations are very different for engaging in a proxy
war than engaging in a direct war, and so a country may well be
willing to engage in the former but for practical reasons never
have the capacity or political will to do the latter.
They are different acts, and have different domestic and
international consequences.
Elemenope|6.17.09 @ 2:50AM|#
So, underzog, if the threat is as great as you claim, presumably
Israel knows everything you know (and then some)...why haven't they
destroyed Iran, as you are claiming they should? They are the only
nuclear power in the region, after all.
Could it be that they do not share your ridiculous appraisal of the
security situation?
Elemenope|6.17.09 @ 4:04AM|#
Arguing with underzog is totally feeding the
troll.
Yeah, but I'm not a mean person by nature, so I rarely have
opportunities to practice.
|6.17.09 @ 5:48AM|#
Yeah, but I'm not a mean person by nature, so I rarely have opportunities to practice.
Likewise. But, surprisingly underzog's antics are wearing thin
with me (although I love the Lonewackoesque parodies of u-z).
I still suspect that u-z is a nom de plume of another commenter,
but if so, whose is a mystery to me.
|6.17.09 @ 7:02AM|#
I still suspect that u-z is a nom de plume of another
commenter, but if so, whose is a mystery to me.
Well, if it is a false-flag spoof troll, there is a regular
commenter who is obsessed with the destruction of Israel to the
point of derangement.
|6.17.09 @ 7:04AM|#
Advertisements for Muslim dating sites? Here? On Reason?
Think they will accept this one?:
"Middle aged atheist citizen of the Great Satan seeks Middle
Eastern hottie willing apostate herself."
Think that would work?
underzog|6.17.09 @ 7:26AM|#
C'mon Eichmannhope!
Why haven't the Libertarians at least adopted a less hostile
position toward Israel and a more critical position toward Islam
after John Mohammed shot and severely wounded a Libertarian party
activist/leader during his sniper/serial killing spree?
Why hasn't the U.S. dropped its demands for another pali state --
besides the artifical state of Jordan -- after the Palis danced
joyously over the loss of over 3000 souls on 9/11: HERE?
Appeasement of Muslims is near complete between Israel and its
former ally, America. Israel should've been making you, MNG: etc.,
scream much louder during Operation Cast Lead, but the fear of the
gentile infects a lot of the Jews in Israel and a most of the
Jewish leadership.
If Kahane, Zt"l had lived, he would've taken care of all of this in
a month and ignored the world's (and yours') screaming and
foam-at-the-mouth hatred against the Jews, but the present Israeli
government is too frightened to nuke Iran as it probably should.
They'll think what will the world say?
For myself, I don't give a damn what the world or you say.
You and world opinion be damned!
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
underzog|6.17.09 @ 7:30AM|#
And Sugarfree... lay off the drugs that you and the other
Libertarians extoll so much.
If your minds were not all shorted on cocaine, heroin, and angel
dust, you wouldn't say such stupid, Turnspeak Propaganda
against me.
It is because of comments from you and the rest of the Rhoemites,
that I have revised my position and no longer think drugs should be
legalized.
We can't have the sick thinking drugs such as angel dust; etc.,
bring on and survive as a civilized, productive society.
You Reasonoids have demontrated that on this board.
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
underzog|6.17.09 @ 7:31AM|#
Yo dawg, I heard you like to read my name in my posts, so I put
my name in my post under my name in post so you can read my name
while you read my name.
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
Nooge|6.17.09 @ 7:40AM|#
Thank you for making my job so easy.
Your job of being completely batshit insane on the subject of
Israel?
Whoever you are in real life, on the Internet you are absolutely
fucking looney tunes when it comes to Israel, or discussing
countries who don't like Israel. If I see you in a thread, it is
almost certain that you are accusing somebody of being antisemitic.
It's ludicrous.
If anything you said was the slightest bit coherent, it'd also be
frightening, but for now you're a sideshow.
|6.17.09 @ 8:28AM|#
It is because of comments from you and the rest of the
Rhoemites, that I have revised my position and no longer think
drugs should be legalized.
You fucked up there, Spoofy Smurf. There's a troll that used to use
that line all the time. Anybody else remember that?
|6.17.09 @ 8:34AM|#
There's a troll that used to use that line all the time. Anybody else remember that?
no...not Lefiti? I suggested this the other day, but that would imply that Lefiti has evolved into a meta-troll or possibly a meta-meta-troll.
|6.17.09 @ 8:36AM|#
If you mean Lefiti, that would suggest the guy has no life, but then I guess that wouldn't be a shock to anyone.
|6.17.09 @ 8:43AM|#
Art,
I think Lefiti used it as well, but I was pretty sure it was a
right-wing troll that popularized it. The archive is letting me
down; there are too many common words to search.
|6.17.09 @ 8:46AM|#
Oh, and want more evidence he's a spoof? He SugarFree'd a link in a post responding to me. Overplayed his hand a bit there, even if it was the only funny thing he's managed to do.
|6.17.09 @ 8:47AM|#
What is significant is that there is open conflict between
the regime Supreme Leader Khamenei (who has confirmed Ahmadinejad's
election repeatedly) and the protesters. That, not the election, is
the story, the conflict, and the issue. Maybe the initial spark was
caused by an untruth-but the explosion is very real
anyway.
True.
Mousavi, the man, almost doesn't matter at this point. Young
Iranians are fighting for what he represents --- change. At the end
of the day, might it just have been Obama change? I guess it's
possible, but I really don't think so. I've been following tweets
and links to blogs for three days now, and I'm shocked by what I've
been reading; there's a true push for liberty happening on the
streets of Tehran right now.
And a push for liberty, anywhere, is something that likely
resonates with everyone of us.
|6.17.09 @ 8:55AM|#
I think Lefiti used it as well, but I was pretty sure it was a right-wing troll that popularized it.
Hmmm...the plot thickens.
Overplayed his hand a bit there, even if it was the only funny thing he's managed to do.
:D Could've been a coincidence, but then it might not have been.
|6.17.09 @ 8:59AM|#
This quote alone would prove beyond the shadow of a doubt in a
court of public opinion that u-z is either a spoof troll or truly
deranged:
Appeasement of Muslims is near complete between Israel and its former ally, America
OK, or maybe both.
|6.17.09 @ 9:02AM|#
If Hit n' Run were an M. Night Shyamalan movie, Neil and Lefiti would also end up being the same person.
Nooge|6.17.09 @ 9:06AM|#
Neil was Cesar, though, right?
Maybe one person has always been behind most of the trolls on
H&R. It would explain why they all say the same stupid
shit.
Nooge|6.17.09 @ 9:07AM|#
The link to UZ's site in my last post was from when I spoofed
him.
I wish posting here was less glitchy, I really do.
|6.17.09 @ 9:08AM|#
It's like a half-remember tune I can't get the title for. Gonna
bug me all day.
I don't think it was Neil. He usually kept to the short posts
except when arguing. I could be wrong. I didn't interact with Neil
very much. Epi did, I'll ask him when he gets up. Or one of The
Sublimed might want to weigh in...
|6.17.09 @ 9:11AM|#
Cesar is still around. He was not a troll as such, and Neil was his anti-anti-Ron Paul performance piece. He's still here under another handle, cracking jokes.
Cabeza de Vaca|6.17.09 @ 9:17AM|#
Sugarless,
This is going to bug me also, but I do remember a troll using that
line. I searched Neil & came up empty.
|6.17.09 @ 9:44AM|#
OK, guys... here it is:
Underzog | January 12, 2009, 10:07pm | #
Oh, like I give a fuck. I agree you don't care about international law and neither does any other supporter of Muslim terrorists.
Incidentally, there are plenty of attacks by Muslims on Jewish synagogues outside of Israel. Debbie Schlussel: Muslim kristallnacht Chicago 2008: Reader David's synagogue (and four others!)attacked (obviously by Muslims).
"Reason Magazine's" Hit and Run does not mention these attacks. They probably don't mention it to whitewash the crimes of the Islamists. Just as they hardly mentioned when John Muhammed shot and nearly killed one of their own.
Eric Dondero | November 28, 2007, 1:33pm | #
Cesar, can you explain to me why it is that there's virtually zero discussion anywheres in any libertarian forums or sites, about the wife of the Alabama LP State Chair being shot by John Muhammed? When it happened in 2002, there was like a little mention of it in LP News. Some talk of it in Alabama Libertarian Party circles. And that was it!!
This is one of the hugest stories in the last 4 to 5 years affecting the libertarian movement. And it's been completely swept under the rug.
And nowadays, it's almost completely forgotten about.
You see, it doesn't fit the non-interventionist hide-your-head-in-the-sand Anti-War Libertarian template. It was an embarrassment for Anti-War Libertarians. They don't want to talk about it at all. They just want to pretend like it never happened. Cause if they talk about it, then someone will say, "well, maybe we should do something about Radical Muslims."
And that my friend, is when the problems start to come in for the Anti-War Libertarians.
You see, they have to pretend that Radical Islam does not exist. If they acknowledge it, they're screwed.
underzog is Donderoooooooooo!
Granite26|6.17.09 @ 9:51AM|#
I see a difference between bombing somebody and
fiscally/materially supporting a group that would be doing it
anyway.
Back to the top: Why are we surprised these people assumes Iranians
should care what we think? They're the same people that assume that
WE should care what the rest of the world thinks about our
politics...
Cabeza de Vaca|6.17.09 @ 9:56AM|#
"underzog is Donderoooooooooo!"
That had crossed my mind before, but I thought even Donderoooooooo
can't be that stupid. Guess he is that stupid.
|6.17.09 @ 9:59AM|#
Still can't find the drug line.
I did find the
thread when I told everyone about Elemenope's sexual fetish for
crying clowns, though. And it's one of the funniest gay marriage
threads I can remember.
Cabeza de Vaca|6.17.09 @ 10:13AM|#
"miche | July 13, 2007, 10:46pm | #
Wait, I thought Zog and Dondero were the same. Should not have had
the last glass of wine at dinner I guess."
You're not the first to see the connection it seems.
|6.17.09 @ 10:36AM|#
Good google, Cabeza.
I'm not going to crow about it too much. It's so obvious in
hindsight. The long rambling posts, the poisonous paranoia about
Muslims... the only real difference is that zog doesn't ramble on
about the old days when he walked ten miles uphill in the snow each
way to deliver LP buttons.
|6.17.09 @ 12:04PM|#
Homophobia literally means a person who has a fear of
sameness (homo + phobia).
Riiiight. By the same token, anti-semitism literally means
opposition to Semites, and since Arabs are Semites, it's nonsense
to accuse them of being anti-semitic.
Oh, yes, and because the suffix "-ee" is the French ending for a
feminine past participle, an "attendee" is literally a female
person who is being attended, not a person of either sex who is
attending a meeting or other event.
Sheesh. As Eugene Volokh frequently points out, etymology is not
definition.
underzog|6.17.09 @ 2:21PM|#
Except with anti-Semitism, it was a Jew hater, Leftwing athiest
-- William Mahr -- who coined the term anti-Semitism.
Mr. Mahr wanted a more elegant and scientific term than
Judenhass. It was probably the homos themselves that
coined the term, homophobia.
You Jew haters can't have it both ways. Your philosophic
descendants can't coin a term such as anti-Semitism to give you
guys more elegance and then switch to say it doesn't really mean
what their creators meant.
I did not create the term homophobia (or Islamophobia for that
matter) so I am not dishonest and deceitful in my criticism of it,
but you Rhoemites/Libertarian anti-Semites are being deceitful with
the term that your philosophical descendant coined.
As for the homosexualist movement coining such a term as
homophobia, they're just being stupid.
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
underzog|6.17.09 @ 2:25PM|#
P.S. it appears Dondero attributes the silence of the
Libertarian movement toward the near killing of the Libertarian
leader to faithfulness for this non interventionist nonsense. I
wouldn't attribute the silence to that. I attribute the silence of
the Rhoemites to eliminationist anti-Semitism. The desire to
destroy Israel 5.5 million Jews trumps all with the Rhoemites and
no brutal action by your Islamic savage friends can change
that.
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"
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