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A Tree Grows in Detroit
From Vice, a post-apocalyptic photoessay of public schools left abandoned in Detroit.
The above image is captioned: A box elder tree grows from a
soil made of ash and pulp from science textbooks in the Detroit
Public Schools' Roosevelt Warehouse. A man's body was discovered in
a frozen lift shaft here. It is assumed he had been there for some
months as his face had decomposed.
More Detroit gothic here. More on the failure of the Detroit public education system here. More money for the city's schools here.
ed|3.15.09 @ 9:28AM|#
Whatever became of the Detroit Renaissance?
By 1976, the offices were partly occupied. General Motors
executive Henry L. Duncombe said the Renaissance Center would be a
valuable trigger for Detroit. He saw a reversal of the population
and business exodus over the next five to seven years. Everyone
agreed that there must be "spinoff' in order for the salvation of
downtown to be realized. At this point, the most obvious effect was
an unrealistic jump in property prices.
And so the Renaissance Center rose up on a hopeful note, with much
good will and a tantalizing future. Two more office towers were
built and opened in 1981, called Phase II, occupied and eventually
purchased by ANR. In 1978, Mayor Coleman A. Young and the Downtown
Development Authority invited a team of architects to give their
professional opinion of the Renaissance Center. Their study was
critical of many of the design features, especially the resulting
isolation. The study also was critical of the city's poor
riverfront planning and lack of planning in general. A later study
was critical of the high retail vacancy rate in the RenCen.
Phase III, the residential development, was left by the wayside, as
Detroit's population continued to leave the city throughout the
1980s. In 1982, the city measured the population of the central
business district as 37% lower than in 1970. By 1983, the RenCen
was in default in its mortgage payments for the second time, and
the four insurance agencies that bankrolled the construction, along
with Ford Motor Credit, assumed 53% ownership.
In 1987 the elevated-rail mass transit People Mover, many years in
the building, began operation, with a stop at the Renaissance
Center that soared over the forbidding concrete berms. Finally, in
May of 1996, General Motors announced that it was buying the
Renaissance Center from then-owner Highgate Hotels in Texas for $73
million, and would spend up to $500 million in renovation costs.
Today GM's logo is up on the hotel tower, now owned by Marriott,
and the berms are being dismantled. A new era is beginning for what
was once a beacon of hope for downtown Detroit.
|3.15.09 @ 9:42AM|#
In the picture of items confiscated from a dice game (here), what's with the area where Jackson's face should be on the $20s?
David Pinto|3.15.09 @ 9:46AM|#
NPR did a report on trees reclaiming Detroit buildings a few years ago. Most started on the roofs, with their roots growing down into the walls, absorbing calcium and other nutrients from the cement. It's amazing how quickly nature can reclaim the earth.
robc|3.15.09 @ 10:02AM|#
I always wondered how the ancient cities were allowed to fall
into ruins. I got wars that decimated a city, but other than that,
I couldnt figure out how you could just let stuff gets covered by
dirt and etc.
Watching it happen over the scale of my lifetime, I understand now
(although Ive only been to Detroit twice, once in the 70s, once in
the 90s).
DetroitRockCity|3.15.09 @ 10:21AM|#
I smell a bailout opportunity.
Box Elders are amazing trees or weeds when it comes to inhospitable
areas. The most amazing trees that grow in urban areas are
Ailanthus trees, which was probably what the tree that was
mentioned above growing on roofs. Both species are useless as urban
trees though.
That's a pretty sad set of articles on more than a few levels.
robc|3.15.09 @ 10:25AM|#
Both species are useless as urban trees though.
Not a problem in this case as they arent growing in an urban
area.
Lefiti|3.15.09 @ 10:25AM|#
"It is important to recognize that general education is not solely and perhaps not even mainly, a matter of communicating knowledge. There is a need for certain common standards of values, and, though too great emphasis on this need may lead to very illiberal consequences, peaceful common existence would be clearly impossible without any such standards. If in long-settled communities with a predominantly indigenous population, this is not likely to be a serious problem, there are instances, such as the United States during the period of large immigration, where it may well be one. That the United States would not have become such an effective "melting pot" and would probably faced extremely difficult problems if it had not been for a deliberate policy of 'Americanization' through the public school system seems fairly certain."--Friedrich Hayek
Lefiti|3.15.09 @ 10:27AM|#
"The education of common people requires, in a civilized and commercial society, the attention of the state."--Adam Smith
Dee|3.15.09 @ 10:27AM|#
On a side note I heard yesterday the owner of the Detroit Pistons died. The news said he bought the team for 7 million and it is now worth 300 million. I didn't think all of Detroit was worth 300 million these days much less their basketball team.
robc|3.15.09 @ 10:42AM|#
Dee,
Technically, the Pistons arent located in Detroit. They play in
Auburn Hills.
|3.15.09 @ 10:46AM|#
"I have a very empty life. My dad only said 'I love you' once. And he was making fun of the way I said it to him."--Lefiti
Lefiti|3.15.09 @ 10:48AM|#
I wish you libertarian fucktards will quit bashing
Detroit.
Once we get the right people in charge, things will turn
around.
NLE|3.15.09 @ 10:49AM|#
Am i the only one who saw that picture and thought Pot for a
second.
"Hitch of a wagon Marshall, I smell opportunity we're heading
northeast.
Hugh Akston|3.15.09 @ 10:58AM|#
Nice work Lefiti impersonator @ 10:48. However, it should
read:
Now that we have the right people in charge,
things will turn around.
|3.15.09 @ 10:59AM|#
In the picture of items confiscated from a dice game (here),
what's with the area where Jackson's face should be on the
$20s?
Johnathan, modern copiers are designed not to make copies of US
currency.
|3.15.09 @ 11:00AM|#
Am i the only one who saw that picture and thought Pot for a
second.
No, but I look at any picture (or most anything) and think Pot.
Yesterday I was at a home and garden show and went in to a Habitat
for Humanity surplus materials sale. I saw a 250W Metal Halide lamp
for $10. I almost bought it, except the bulb is probably no good
and they're like $100 alone. Sigh.
|3.15.09 @ 11:28AM|#
In other Motown news -
147 cases in police lab mess called 'tip of iceberg'
State Police must reanalyze Detroit's mishandled
evidence
Wayne County Prosecutor Kym Worthy says her office has identified 147 cases of convicted and imprisoned people that will require the retesting of evidence as part of the investigation into the now-closed Detroit police crime lab -- unveiling the first of potentially thousands of cases that are at risk of unraveling because of mishandled evidence.
"This is the tip of the iceberg," Worthy told the Free Press on Thursday, noting that in addition to the 147 cases identified by her office, defense attorneys have notified her office of 30 others that they believe relied on mishandled evidence.
...
The Detroit lab wasn't the only one in the country with problems, according to the independent National Research Council. A review by West Virginia State Police found more than 100 convictions were in doubt because an employee had repeatedly falsified evidence. At least 10 people had convictions overturned.
In Oregon, a man won a $2-million settlement after fingerprints mistakenly linked him to the 2004 train bombings in Madrid, Spain. Fingerprint evidence also was tossed out of a death penalty case in Maryland by a judge who declared it untested and unverifiable.
*sigh* Your tax dollars at work.
|3.15.09 @ 11:49AM|#
From the final link in Jesse's post.
Detroit Public Schools stands to reap $530 million - $355 million with no strings attached - from the federal stimulus package that will hand Michigan nearly $7 billion over two or three years.
This doesn't completely illuminate how deep a fiscal rathole
Detroit Public Schools are. Allow me to expand on the
subject.
DPS
leader: Watchdog to be hired; district is $200M in
red
He [Robert Bobb*]said the current deficit is likely more than $200 million, a marked increase from last year's $139-million deficit.
Bobb also said, repeatedly, that the district will have to first create an educational plan and facilities plan before a financial plan can be implemented.
Of course the NEA, AFT and their elected minions fight charter
schools and vouchers tooth and nail. I'll leave it up to y'all to
google Detroit Public Schools' sterling academic
achievements.
* Bob Bobb? Rob Bobb? Bobby Bobb? Ouch.
Lefiti|3.15.09 @ 11:57AM|#
The Libertarian method--cherry pick evidence that supoorts your cherished beliefs, and ignore everything else. Fucking mental zombies.
|3.15.09 @ 12:02PM|#
Lefiti will now defend the continued existence of the Detroit
Public School System. This should be as humorously interesting as
joe speaking on firearms.
Go for it, smartass.
Jesse Walker|3.15.09 @ 12:15PM|#
Lefiti will now defend the continued existence of the
Detroit Public School System.
I doubt it. If past is prologue, he will post the same four or five
insults over and over again, without making much effort to connect
them to the discussion. The guy's on autopilot, which adds a little
poignance to his complaints about "mental zombies."
Taktix®|3.15.09 @ 12:38PM|#
The Libertarian method--cherry pick evidence that supoorts
your cherished beliefs, and ignore everything else.
Exactly. We always find some random quote and conflate it with the
entire belief structure of the subject being quoted.
Oh, wait...
|3.15.09 @ 12:51PM|#
joe's law strikes again!
where is he of late, anyways?
Oh, he's "outta here." It was under the pretense of being offended
by something someone said, but I offer this crystal ball:
http://www.reason.com/blog/show/129949.html#1133797
sage | November 6, 2008, 10:28am | #
You know, I like joe, and he makes very intelligent arguments. But
I have a feeling things are going to get very difficult for him on
this blog. It's been easy to hate Bush since most of us don't like
him either. But when a lot of Obama's ideas are exposed to the
light they are going to look very ugly, and hard to
defend.
I guess it's easier to leave than to try to defend indefensible
ideas, eh?
anon|3.15.09 @ 12:55PM|#
Will turn around??? Have turned around!! Obama told us that WE'VE been blowing this whole recession thing way out of proportion, and I believe it!
Shannon Love|3.15.09 @ 12:58PM|#
The scary thing is that Obama and the rest of the democrat
leadership see the policies that wrecked Detroit and the other
Great Lake states as the template that they wish to force the rest
of the country into. Detroit, after all, is just the most extreme
example of the economic decay of this once great region.
Since the 70's people have high tailed it out of the region that
was once the industrial heartland for the entire planet. Now,
California, having followed them same policies, has suffered the same
fate. Ten years from now, we will look at California with the
same shock that people in 1980 looked at the catastrophic collapse
of the Rust Belt states.
If leftists ideas of high taxes, strong unions, expansive social
services and a generally invasive government worked as advertised.
Places like Detroit would be a
paradise. People would immigrate from other states to move to
the Rust Belt as they did prior to the 60's. It really shows the
intellectual bankruptcy of the left that they keep pushing the
policies that killed these once great cities and states.
I, Kahn O\'Clast|3.15.09 @ 1:08PM|#
Other cities have also lost half their former populations over similar periods of time (Pittsburgh comes to mind) and they have not suffered the fate of Detroit. Discuss...
|3.15.09 @ 1:25PM|#
One big difference is that Pittsburgh has a bunch of prestigious
universities to draw money in even during bad economic times.
And make no mistake, most of Pittsburgh's neighborhoods and the
suburbs are ghettos; the city is broke and has its finances
overseen by the state; and people are still fleeing the entire
metro area (not just the city).
Taktix®|3.15.09 @ 1:50PM|#
And make no mistake, most of Pittsburgh's neighborhoods and
the suburbs are ghettos; the city is broke and has its finances
overseen by the state; and people are still fleeing the entire
metro area (not just the city).
Pretty much. As a current flee-er, there's not a whole lot outside
of Biotech propping up the economy.
PNC is becoming decent-sized bank, but it's not big enough to
compete with the biggest banks, yet big enough that if purchased
whould make the #3-or-#4-largest bank jump up to #1 or #2.
There is some advantage to the low cost of living, but it doesn't
matter how low the cost of living is when there are zero jobs.
robc|3.15.09 @ 1:56PM|#
Taktix,
Didnt PNC just got bought? Or maybe they bought someone else.
Whatever, I just know some banks in Louisville changed names and
PNC was involved.
Okay, looked it up, PNC bought National City.
robc|3.15.09 @ 1:58PM|#
More details, PNC took $7.7B in tarp money and used $5.6B of it to buy National City (although it was a $5.2B in stock and $400M in cash deal).
TallDave|3.15.09 @ 2:02PM|#
It's a good start.
Now, if we can just do that to the rest of the public schools,
maybe kids can get a decent education.
TallDave|3.15.09 @ 2:08PM|#
The scary thing is that Obama and the rest of the democrat
leadership see the policies that wrecked Detroit and the other
Great Lake states as the template that they wish to force the rest
of the country into.
Hey, remember that promise to not raise taxes on anyone making over
$250K? Anyone who believed that, please slap yourself. < a
href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/15/us/politics/15health.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1237140441-UJEQaCsbP5xaNxPgHoavcA">Hard.
The Obama administration is signaling to Congress that the president could support taxing some employee health benefits
The proposal… is similar to one he denounced in the presidential campaign as "the largest middle-class tax increase in history."
Yes We Can!
Somehow, 'I told you so' just doesn't quite say it.
TallDave|3.15.09 @ 2:09PM|#
The scary thing is that Obama and the rest of the democrat
leadership see the policies that wrecked Detroit and the other
Great Lake states as the template that they wish to force the rest
of the country into.
Hey, remember that promise to not raise taxes on anyone making over
$250K? Anyone who believed that, please slap yourself.
Hard.
The Obama administration is signaling to Congress that the president could support taxing some employee health benefits
The proposal… is similar to one he denounced in the presidential campaign as "the largest middle-class tax increase in history."
Yes We Can!
Somehow, 'I told you so' just doesn't quite say it.
jtuf|3.15.09 @ 2:16PM|#
Some region or another declines once in a while. The New England country side is full of abandoned farms from when agriculture shift west. The West has its ghost towns from when the mines petered out. New Jersey has remnants of the Hudson-Delaware cannal that trains made obsolete. I think Youngstown, Ohio's managed decline could be a good example for government of Detroit to follow.
|3.15.09 @ 2:22PM|#
On a side note I heard yesterday the owner of the Detroit Pistons died. The news said he bought the team for 7 million and it is now worth 300 million. I didn't think all of Detroit was worth 300 million these days much less their basketball team.
Dee,
Technically, the Pistons arent located in Detroit. They play in Auburn Hills.
More on Bill Davidson - The Palace of Auburn Hills was privately
funded. Beside the successful roundball franchises that play there,
it remains one of the premier concert venues in the country.
Bill Davidson was the first to buy a private jet to transport his
team around. It doesn't count against the salary cap and when the
Pistons were the only franchise doing it, it was probably worth 2
to 4 road wins a season.
It wasn't his idea, it was a response to a question he asked.
Something like "What can we do to help the team win more games that
we haven't tried?"
That is quality management.
anon|3.15.09 @ 2:29PM|#
These pictures/story are as old as the internet. I distinctly
remember a virtually identical threat on Hit & Run a few years
ago.
Anyway, check out detroitblog.org for some very interesting
slice-of-life type journalism. (not the author, just a fan)
Lefiti|3.15.09 @ 2:35PM|#
"...he [Lefiti] will post the same four or five insults over and
over again, without making much effort to connect them to the
discussion."
O yeah, I can see how my four or five insults stand out in the
generally high level of discourse here. You've been in the
right-wng propaganda business too long, Jesse. If you're no soon
looking for another line of work, it will be a testimony to the
charutable instncts of the mental zombies. Donate now!
Taktix®|3.15.09 @ 2:39PM|#
If you're no soon looking for another line of work, it will
be a testimony to the charutable instncts of the mental
zombies.
Memo to all Lefiti posters:
Please try harder when wearing the Lefiti mask. It's a tool, not a
toy.
That is all...
|3.15.09 @ 2:41PM|#
There is some advantage to the low cost of living, but it
doesn't matter how low the cost of living is when there are zero
jobs.
Indeed. Luckily I'm getting paid as a grad student with money from
outside. Life is good when you're a vulture picking flesh off the
once-great elephant's corpse.
Interestingly, my mom just sent me a link to a TIME article on how
Pittsburgh's revival after the collapse of the US steel industry is
a model for how America can survive the economic downturn. I
responded that she shouldn't wish that on herself.
Lefiti|3.15.09 @ 2:45PM|#
Hit and Run is an endless series of cheap-shot propaganda posts that elecit moronic replies from true-believers who have swallowed the Kool-Aid long ago, and Jesse Walker has the chutzpa to complain about insults. Fuck, only in Libertopia!
Taktix®|3.15.09 @ 2:47PM|#
Interestingly, my mom just sent me a link to a TIME article
on how Pittsburgh's revival after the collapse of the US steel
industry is a model for how America can survive the economic
downturn.
So everyone in America should move to North Carolina and Florida? I
don't think they're big enough...
D.A. Ridgely|3.15.09 @ 2:51PM|#
A Poem
Some see the tree as a sign of hope and renewal
But I see the
snow covered library books and sigh, thinking
"What a toasty bonfire they would have made!"
Lefiti|3.15.09 @ 2:54PM|#
In order to raise money for the Detroit school system I will be hosting a telethon, during which I will perform oral sex on myself until enough money is raised.
|3.15.09 @ 3:09PM|#
In my experience, you'd probably raise more money by performing it on other people. But I wouldn't expect a socialist to know a thing about making money as opposed to taking it.
Jesse Walker|3.15.09 @ 3:13PM|#
You've been in the right-wing propaganda business too long,
Jesse.
See what I mean?
Jennifer|3.15.09 @ 3:19PM|#
I think he has a crush on you, Jesse. He acts exactly the same
way my third-grade self acted in the presence of the then-Cutest
Boy In School: Eeeew! Cootie alert! You are so ugly and stupid and
etc.
Although in third grade, my vocabulary was not yet advanced enough
to work Hayek into my insults. Boogerbrain.
D.A. Ridgely|3.15.09 @ 3:32PM|#
Actually, "Hayek" is very close to the guttural sound we used to make before, as the third grade term of art went, hocking a loogie.
Jesse Walker|3.15.09 @ 3:38PM|#
These pictures/story are as old as the internet. I
distinctly remember a virtually identical threat on Hit & Run a
few years ago.
The story is ongoing. The photoessay is new. I remember the post
you're referring to (it was one of Brian's) and it wasn't the same
pictures.
Anonymous|3.15.09 @ 3:38PM|#
a virtually identical threat [sic] on Hit
& Run
The word is "thread", sir. I've seen this mis-spelling quite a few
times recently. Is it some kind of joke, or just stupid?
Jesse Walker|3.15.09 @ 3:40PM|#
Anyone know how much of the Stimulus Detroit is
getting?
The schools are getting $530 million, of which $355 million comes
with no strings attached. More details here.
|3.15.09 @ 3:47PM|#
"The schools are getting $530 million, of which $355 million
comes with no strings attached. More details here."
Accountability, YES WE CAN!!
Amazing.
Mike Laursen|3.15.09 @ 3:54PM|#
Ten years from now, we will look at California with the same
shock that people in 1980 looked at the catastrophic collapse of
the Rust Belt states.
You may be right, but I don't see it happening. As bad as our state
government is, California has a lot going for it that's hard for
them to fuck up. We have a lot of creative and energetic people,
and those people are not as likely to take flight to somewhere else
because of the climate, recreation, and deep-routed fun
culture.
Mike Laursen|3.15.09 @ 3:57PM|#
As bad as our state government is... not as likely to take
flight to somewhere else because of the climate, recreation, and
deep-routed fun culture.
Come to think of it, this is just a microcosm of the optimism that
Nick Gillespie keeps expressing about freedom advancing throughout
the world despite all of the short-term anti-freedom shit that we
humans subject ourselves to.
|3.15.09 @ 3:57PM|#
"You may be right, but I don't see it happening. As bad as our
state government is, California has a lot going for it that's hard
for them to fuck up. We have a lot of creative and energetic
people, and those people are not as likely to take flight to
somewhere else because of the climate, recreation, and deep-routed
fun culture."
Fifty years ago Detroit was the greatest industrial city the world
has ever seen. Never underestimate the ability of governments and
unions to destroy something. California won't look like Detroit
today, it will look like Mexico City, a combination of slums full
of people who couldn't escape and gated neighborhoods of people to
wealthy to care or live in reality.
|3.15.09 @ 4:01PM|#
yes California is beautiful. But so is much of Mexico and Central America. The beauty doesn't keep them from being third world countries, which is what California will be in 20 years of so.
Mike Laursen|3.15.09 @ 4:02PM|#
California won't look like Detroit today, it will look like
Mexico City, a combination of slums full of people who couldn't
escape and gated neighborhoods of people to wealthy to care or live
in reality.
Lots of California already matches those two extremes and I suppose
it's been that way since, oh, 1697. I guess the real question is
what's going to happen to all those vast middle-class suburbs that
lie between the extremes?
|3.15.09 @ 4:10PM|#
The schools are getting $530 million, of which $355 million
comes with no strings attached. More details here.
Sweet! Looks like it's time for my new consulting firm, ChuckU,
LLC, to start ginning up some bids. First contract: for interior
landscaping of the Roosevelt Warehouse. Only $5 million/year. A
bargain!
Of course, this will be after my substantial donations to the
school board members' reelection campaigns. And hiring their
in-laws on as deputy executive VPs for corporate relations.
|3.15.09 @ 4:10PM|#
I guess the real question is what's going to happen to all
those vast middle-class suburbs that lie between the
extremes?
Killer robots. Next question?
Mike Laursen|3.15.09 @ 4:15PM|#
In all seriousness, I'm expecting a non-industrial robot industry to be big business in the mid-term future. Whether California (or the United States) will get in on it is an open question. There's a good chance it will be another Japanese-dominated business. Ironically, Detroit has (or used to have) a lot of what it would take to compete well in this area.
Mike Laursen|3.15.09 @ 4:17PM|#
California also has a lot of potential to become big in private space flight, but I'll bet we'll blow that one.
Anonymous|3.15.09 @ 4:32PM|#
I have no handy citations, but didn't California decrease in population as a result of people moving to other states? I don't know whether this was counted in raw numbers of individuals, by families, or excluding immigration.
|3.15.09 @ 4:39PM|#
Mike Laursen,
California's water problems might come to a head soon. There's an
awfully good reason why there are few historical examples of
millions of people living in a small patch of desert. You can't
divert water from NoCal forever. (Of course this applies to Arizona
and other popular Sun Belt destinations as well)
Of course, with all the electoral votes that are piling up in the
Southwest, I suppose it won't be long before the National Water
Administration arrives to pump Great Lakes water to the
southwest.
|3.15.09 @ 4:43PM|#
Which is part of the reason California is so big in area...back in 1850 no one thought that the southern half of the state could support even a small population. Without water diversion LA and San Diego would be nearly uninhabitable.
Taktix® (as a Detroit, Unioniz|3.15.09 @ 4:43PM|#
I'm expecting a non-industrial robot industry to be big
business in the mid-term future... Ironically, Detroit has (or used
to have) a lot of what it would take to compete well in this
area.
My contract says I ain't gotta learn any new skills...
Taktix®|3.15.09 @ 4:51PM|#
Of course, with all the electoral votes that are piling up
in the Southwest, I suppose it won't be long before the National
Water Administration arrives to pump Great Lakes water to the
southwest.
They could run it alongside the NAFTA Superhighway!
|3.15.09 @ 4:53PM|#
No strings attached is only because the Detroit Public Schools
have historically been wise and frugal stewards of the citizen's
tax dollars. Cass Technical High School is a recent example of the
fine stewardship DPS has displayed.
From the oh so useful Wiki.
During the 2005-2006 school year, Cass Tech faculty, students and staff were moved to the new building, which was constructed on and around the school's old football field. The move into the new building sparked controversy because of uncertainty about the future of the old building, which is considered to be a historic landmark.
That is less than 4 years ago when the old Cass Tech was filled
with students.
Here is a photo of the absolutely gorgeous structue from 1939.
Four years ago it looked pretty much the same, some wear and tear
that is to be expected, but still a very handsome building. The new
school was opened next door and the old building (historical
landmark?) was
A) sold to private developers.
B) converted into a community center/museum.
C) razed.
D)
allowed to decay and be stripped by vandals. ✔
The management gurus at DPS have apparently decided to let erosion,
vandals, urban recyclers and gravity dispose of the old Cass Tech.
The juniors and seniors at the new building have had a front row
seat watching the old decay.
The $355 megabuck no strings attached portion of the stimulus
package will be be used to paper over past and future
mismanagement.
Lefiti|3.15.09 @ 4:54PM|#
"You've been in the right-wing propaganda business too long,
Jesse."--Lefiti
"See what I mean?" --Jesse Walker
No, I don't see what you mean. Do you mean that you're not in the
right-wing propaganda business, so saying you are is an insult? Or
do you mean it's inaccurate to call it a busness since what you do
isn't economically viable without donations?
|3.15.09 @ 4:56PM|#
I'm still waiting for Lefiti's defense of the Detroit Public Schools. I'll likely wait forever.
|3.15.09 @ 4:56PM|#
The scary thing is that Obama and the rest of the democrat
leadership see the policies that wrecked Detroit and the other
Great Lake states as the template that they wish to force the rest
of the country into. Detroit, after all, is just the most extreme
example of the economic decay of this once great region.
Since the 70's people have high tailed it out of the region
that was once the industrial heartland for the entire
planet.
That has the disadvantage of not being...true -- the Great Lakes
states have not actually been shrinking since the 1970s. Not even
Michigan has been shrinking. Hell -- not even the Detroit Metro
region has been shrinking. They've all grown quite a lot since
1970. For decades, Michigan and even metro Detroit did fine while
Detroit flailed away.
But now that the rest of Michigan has caught the cold, Detroit has
the flu. Or rather now that the rest of Michigan has the flu,
Detroit has AIDs...or something like that. You get the idea.
Lefiti|3.15.09 @ 5:07PM|#
J sub D
Make an intelligent attack on the Detroit public schools, and I'll
defend them.
Lefiti|3.15.09 @ 5:11PM|#
J sub D
Make an intelligent attack on the Detroit public schools, and I'll
blow myself and send you the pics
Taktix®|3.15.09 @ 5:14PM|#
J sub D
Make an intelligent attack on the Detroit public schools, and I'll
defend them.
For some reason, I read this and imagined a frustrated fellow
trying to teach the process of fission reactions to a mean cocker
spaniel...
|3.15.09 @ 5:22PM|#
J sub D
Make an intelligent attack on the Detroit public schools, and I'll defend them.
For some reason, I read this and imagined a frustrated fellow trying to teach the process of fission reactions to a mean cocker spaniel...
What do you have against Cocker Spaniels? Sure, they aren't as
smart as Labrador Retrievers or Border Collies, but comparing the
entire breed with Lefiti is just plain unfair.
|3.15.09 @ 5:28PM|#
Fascinating story
here.
A thriving charter school in Georgia is looking for a new facility;
the school district has recently closed a school due to "falling
enrollment" but refuses to lease the building to the charter
school.
That idiot Obama wants to throw money at local school districts,
with no strings attached, because they are doing such an awesome
job.
|3.15.09 @ 5:32PM|#
Cass Tech faculty, students and staff were moved to the new
building, which was constructed on and around the school's old
football field. The move into the new building sparked controversy
because of uncertainty about the future of the old building, which
is considered to be a historic landmark.
You can bet your ass if a charter school wanted to move into that
(now deteriorating) building, the Detroit school authorities would
fight tooth and nail to prevent it.
Taktix®|3.15.09 @ 5:46PM|#
J sub,
Nothing against Cocker Spaniels, but the gap between their
intelligence and the level of intelligence required to understand
nuclear physics is about the same as the gap between Lefiti's
intelligence and the level of intellegence required to make a
poignant, logical argument.
A camparison of scale, you see...
jester|3.15.09 @ 5:48PM|#
Lefiti,
Sir, when you blow yourself, please make it all available at
lone-wacko's site.
Just one more reason...
Sorry forget I said that.
Taktix®|3.15.09 @ 5:50PM|#
Err... Comparison!
Damn you, Joez Law, damn you!
Where has he been, anyway?
|3.15.09 @ 5:51PM|#
Which is part of the reason California is so big in
area...back in 1850 no one thought that the southern half of the
state could support even a small population. Without water
diversion LA and San Diego would be nearly
uninhabitable.
And don't forget all the idiot bay area types who desperately want
to "restore" Hetch Hetchy.
jayjayhawker|3.15.09 @ 5:57PM|#
The Robo Cop movies predicted this.
But seriously, nothing is a sadder product of the government
subsidy system and labor laws than Detroit.
|3.15.09 @ 6:07PM|#
Make an intelligent attack on the Detroit public schools,
and I'll blow myself and send you the pics
Perhaps you need to look up the word "disincentive".
With the exception of your posts, most of this thread has been an
intelligent attack on the schools. The pics alone are damning
enough.
|3.15.09 @ 6:13PM|#
back in 1850 no one thought that the southern half of the
state could support even a small population. Without water
diversion LA and San Diego would be nearly
uninhabitable.
Sorry, but bullshit on the date.
L.A. wasn't doing badly before the aqueduct was built (started
1905, completed 1913). The water was brought in to make the arid SF
Valley viable farmland (and the sneaky bastards who owned it all a
lot of money), not to build up a vast exurbia. The All-American
canal was built in the 1930s, mostly for the Imperial Valley and
later for SD. The CA Water Project came years after that.
Even today, SoCal would have enough water were it not for the
cutbacks in delivery to save the delta smelt. That and if the
farmers stopped growing cotton and alfalfa in the fucking
desert.
I recall when L.A. cast her insatiable eyes all the way to the
Columbia River, lamenting all that water going to waste flowing
untapped into the ocean.
|3.15.09 @ 6:26PM|#
JI,
The only date I have there is the date of California's statehood,
1850, which I'm certain is correct, thanks to an unimaginatively
named compromise. At that time the vast majority of CA's population
was in the northern half. If they'd known the southern half would
become so populous they wouldn't have made it all one state,
probably giving statehood to the northern half and letting the
southern half remain a territory.
Even today, SoCal would have enough water were it not for the
cutbacks in delivery to save the delta smelt.
That water is coming from NoCal, and they're starting to run low
themselves. SoCal has next to no fresh water of its own, save the
Colorado River, which is getting lower itself due to AZ's own
population explosion.*
That and if the farmers stopped growing cotton and alfalfa in
the fucking desert.
Now we're talking...also cutting back on the number of lush green
golf courses and front lawns would help.
* I saw a 20/20 report profiling Jeff Flake last year, a guy who
I'm certainly inclined to like, but then they showed him playing
with his kids in a vast, lush green back yard in the middle of the
Arizona desert. Yo, fuck Arizona water hogs.
|3.15.09 @ 6:37PM|#
Desalinization plants. San Diego wanted to build one, but the warm and fuzzy environmentalists said now. They said salt was a pollutant and it couldn't be dumped back in the ocean.
Jesse Walker|3.15.09 @ 6:43PM|#
No, I don't see what you mean.
I wasn't addressing you.
Do you mean that you're not in the right-wing propaganda
business, so saying you are is an insult? Or do you mean it's
inaccurate to call it a busness [sic] since what you do
isn't economically viable without donations?
On the slim chance that you're honestly curious: I meant that you
were doing just what I said you would do. I said that you would
rather spout inane insults than engage in a real discussion about
the Detroit schools, and I was right. I said that the insults would
be the same jibber-jabber you recycle through all these threads
rather than anything related to the topic, and again I was
right.
Bags|3.15.09 @ 7:21PM|#
Don't feed the troll. I actually remember Lefiti accusing Balko of cherry picking evidence in the Ryan Frederick case. Eddie has no other point other than to troll.
Lefiti|3.15.09 @ 7:41PM|#
Dear Jesse
So if you weren't addressing me, why do you bother rersponding to
my questions, which you claim are "insane insults"? That you engage
in propaganda is a insane insult? You can't be that fucking stupid.
Jesus. Don't feed the troll, especially if you have nothing to
fucking say.
Best,
Lefiti
Atanarjuat|3.15.09 @ 8:10PM|#
Desalinization plants. San Diego wanted to build one, but the warm and fuzzy environmentalists said now. They said salt was a pollutant and it couldn't be dumped back in the ocean.
Couldn't they sell the salt as a commodity? Even if it wasn't fit
for eating, they could salt icy roads with it.
Jesse Walker|3.15.09 @ 8:30PM|#
I actually remember Lefiti accusing Balko of cherry picking
evidence in the Ryan Frederick case.
He has a set number of routines that he cycles through almost
randomly, and one of them is to accuse people of cherry-picking
evidence (without, of course, giving specifics about the alleged
cherry-picking, as that would involve engaging in actual debate).
Now he's entered his "Yes, I'm a troll, nyah nyah nyah"
meta-routine, another familiar schtick. Talking with him is a bit
like trying to carry on a conversation with one of those toddler
toys that says one of five preprogrammed sentences every time you
squeeze its belly.
Ordinarily I don't interact with him, but he's kind of fascinating,
so occasionally I give him a poke to see what happens. We probably
ought to ban him, but he does serve the useful function of
reminding us that there are people out there who take the
smug/stupid combination even further than Lonewacko.
|3.15.09 @ 8:37PM|#
Brandybuck,
Really? If that's so, the environmentalists' complaint is the
silliest thing I've heard today, and wait till I tell you about my
day. I could see salt being considered a pollutant if you're going
to dump it in a forest or something, but it's not like San Diego
has a shortage of nearby desert. That's of course if you accept
that there's no way they're going to be dumping enough salt back
into the ocean to change the concentration at all.
I always thought the hangup with desal was the enormous energy
input necessary for each gallon of fresh water produced.
Lefiti|3.15.09 @ 8:45PM|#
Lefiti's song (sung to some tune)
Oh, they're talking about me
Little bannable me
They've banned me more than once
They made me play the dunce,
But they're talling about me again
Threatening to ban me again
But they're talking about me!
|3.15.09 @ 8:56PM|#
We probably ought to ban him, but he does serve the useful
function of reminding us that there are people out there who take
the smug/stupid combination even further than Lonewacko.
So long as we can say, "this is the stupidest," it is not the
stupidest.
Shannon Love|3.15.09 @ 9:03PM|#
Slocum,
That has the disadvantage of not being...true -- the Great
Lakes states have not actually been shrinking since the
1970s.
Not according to the Census Bureau. All the Great Lake states
except IIRC Wisconsin have seen net internal emigration over the
last 30 years. California tipped over within the last 10. I don't
have the link at hand but I did the research for a recent post on
Chicagoboyz.
External immigration is still happening but internal emigration
since WWII has largely been a phenomenon of the middle and upper
class. Poor people don't move anymore, probably due to the welfare
state. This means states with net internal immigration are loosing
their entrepreneurial classes. Detroit is a microcosm of this
phenomena.
Socialism can make a desert our of garden.
Detective Mills|3.15.09 @ 9:04PM|#
"Fuck you Shakespeare, you faggy rhyming lyric pentameter piece of shit!"
|3.15.09 @ 9:16PM|#
Dumping salt back into the ocean is not polluting it. It would
make for higher salinity around the point where the salt was being
recycled, but once you got outside the immediate area where it was
being dumped the ocean would essentially remain at normal salinity.
And, over time, the acres of ocean area of higher salinity would
develop a new ecosystem adapted to the new environment, quite
possibly increasing local biological diversity.
This process occurs naturally, actually. When water naturally
evaporates off the ocean surface, the top layer of the ocean
becomes more saline.
In fact, dumping salt in the ocean is about the only way to not
pollute or damage anything. It's the one place where salt is NOT a
pollutant.
Lefiti|3.15.09 @ 9:20PM|#
Anybody with a passing knowledge of the level of the comments here would find it astonishing that Jesse Walker could single mine (or anybody else's) out as "stupid." Jesse's sole criterion is obviously the extent to which the comments conform to libertarian articles of faith. In other words, Jesse Walker is a right-wing propagandist pimp pretending to be a journalist.
|3.15.09 @ 9:26PM|#
Shannon Love,
You're neglecting the fact that people are being born in those
states. "Shrinking" is the term you originally used, which is
usually interpreted to mean that the total population is declining,
not that there is "net internal emigration".
I'm sure you'll return momentarily to explain why I'm a despicable
socialist liar who doesn't understand plain English, though.
Naga Sadow as Lefiti|3.15.09 @ 10:27PM|#
What do I send unto you Libertards?
Defiance! Scorn! Add unto that contempt, and slight regard!
Jennifer|3.15.09 @ 10:36PM|#
I was talking to you, Jesse! Why haven't you responded? Pay attention to me!!! Stupid boogerbrained right-wing dumbass.
Jennifer|3.15.09 @ 10:40PM|#
Goddammit, I have when Lefiti-like demons take control of me when I'm online. Just forget that last remark, why don't you?
cuernimus|3.16.09 @ 12:11AM|#
Dumping salt back into the ocean is not polluting it. It would make for higher salinity around the point where the salt was being recycled, but once you got outside the immediate area where it was being dumped the ocean would essentially remain at normal salinity. And, over time, the acres of ocean area of higher salinity would develop a new ecosystem adapted to the new environment, quite possibly increasing local biological diversity.
That's not even taking into consideration that much of that water is going to be returning to the ocean after it gets pumped into rivers or artificial lakes or out of bladders.
Kolohe|3.16.09 @ 12:36AM|#
And, over time, the acres of ocean area of higher salinity
would develop a new ecosystem adapted to the new environment, quite
possibly increasing local biological diversity.
Yes, but this takes like millions of years, and I need my
Filet-of-fish this friday.
The 'solution to pollution is dilution' is, on balance, a good
strategy. But many marine (and other) environments are quite
sensitive to small chemical changes.
Mike Laursen|3.16.09 @ 12:56AM|#
Even today, SoCal would have enough water were it not for
the cutbacks in delivery to save the delta smelt. That and if the
farmers stopped growing cotton and alfalfa in the fucking
desert.
And yet our local Bay Area NPR station always refers to this
situation as a "drought". And the most politically correct of my
neighbors (and it's pretty damned liberal Democratic around here)
are looking forward with religious fervor to taking one-minute
showers and flushing their toilets only once a day.
|3.16.09 @ 1:50AM|#
Dadgummit, I really want to meet Lefiti in person.
I bet you in reality he's a very successful, well-dressed and
socially gracious human being.
Because otherwise he must be like an unsuccessful and coked up John
MacEnroe.
|3.16.09 @ 3:34AM|#
Art, it's commentary like yours sir, that keeps the mary jane
illegal.
I keed I keed
|3.16.09 @ 5:04AM|#
Because otherwise he must be like an unsuccessful and coked
up John MacEnroe.
What do you have against the greatest tennis player of all
time?!?
|3.16.09 @ 5:42AM|#
What do you have against the greatest tennis player of all time?!?
Nothing, it's just that when he gets all riled up he's like Charlie from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, who is like Bobcat Goldthwait, whose characterization in Scrooged was, I believe, partially based on Lefiti.
|3.16.09 @ 5:44AM|#
Plus, you see MacEnroe's anger, you're like Oh, he's just a passionate competitor. You see Lefiti's anger, it's like What the hell?
|3.16.09 @ 7:17AM|#
who is like Bobcat Goldthwait, whose characterization in
Scrooged was, I believe, partially based on Lefiti
Actually, Bobcat has stated that his performance in Police
Academy 2 was inspired by Lefiti. Also, One Crazy
Summer.
Taktix®|3.16.09 @ 8:45AM|#
Jennifer | March 15, 2009, 10:36pm | #
I was talking to you, Jesse! Why haven't you responded? Pay
attention to me!!! Stupid boogerbrained right-wing
dumbass.
Lefiti exposed!
|3.16.09 @ 9:40AM|#
We have a lot of creative and energetic people, and those
people are not as likely to take flight to somewhere else because
of the climate, recreation, and deep-routed fun culture.
The out-migration of highly productive people has already begun,
although I don't know at what scale.
At some point, a rising tax burden and declining social capital
will outweigh whatever marginal advantages in recreation, climate,
and fun California has.
The outmigration of highly productive people could set off a death
spiral, as outmigration increases the tax burden and reduces the
social capital for those that remain, ratcheting the incentive to
leave up and up. How likely is this scenario? Don't know, but
people who value climate, recreation, and fun highly don't strike
me as people who are likely to stick around in a bad situation to
try to make it better.
SpongePaul|3.16.09 @ 10:20AM|#
I almost bought it, except the bulb is probably no good and
they're like $100 alone. Sigh.
___________________________________________
you do not need a fancy bulb. a standard bulb at home depot will
work just as well. the enhanced spectrum really does not make much
dif over the long run. go to the depot and get a 15.00 MH bulb. get
some seeds from the uk and have fun, lol
Mike Laursen|3.16.09 @ 12:21PM|#
How likely is this scenario? Don't know, but people who
value climate, recreation, and fun highly don't strike me as people
who are likely to stick around in a bad situation to try to make it
better.
My expectation isn't that the most creative and affluent will try
to fix California government for everybody. Instead, we'll find
ways to isolate and exempt our neighborhoods, schools, etc.
jtuf|3.16.09 @ 1:00PM|#
This is a bit of a tangent, but when I caught up on my vertical
farming reading today, I saw a paragraph that partly explains
America's urban decline. Sooner or later the reason for a region's
popularity (the oil well, gold mine, steel mill, ect.) goes bust.
For a city to grow or keep its population after the bust, it needs
to reinvent itself. Vertical farming is an emerging technology that
could invigorate a city. A researcher at Columbia U advocates it on
his website vertical
farming. He links to an interview he
gave about his next project. In the interview, he says:
One of the requests we have that we think will actually result in an initiative is from the country of Jordan. I've had an inquiry from two separate [US AID representatives from Jordan]. They want me to come visit Jordan to explore the possibility of working with Hyatt hotels to produce vertical farm-like settings inside the hotel so that they're carbon neutral. You can integrate food production into the hotel as well as energy recapture and all these other things, because, remember, it's a desert. You've got wonderful sun. You don't have any water, but if you drill down deep enough you'll have water too. So we can accomplish a lot. If you're constrained by New York City building codes or something like that, you might not be able to do this. If you go to Jordan they will give you an open invitation to try whatever you like.
I'll be ecstatic if the building goes up anywhere. However, there's
no good reason why we can't have verticle farms in both Jordan and
New York City. Zoning regulations are discouraging them in New
York. So, inventors are hard at work trying to save their cities,
and politicians are hard at work making sure nothing changes.
Mike Laursen|3.16.09 @ 1:06PM|#
I've seen a BLDG blog post or two on vertical farming. My
impression was that it's at the wouldn't-it-be-cool idea stage,
with no serious analysis of economic feasibility.
How could growing veggies in a skyscraper possibly compete with
growing them in a relatively low-cost field of dirt and then
shipping them into the city?
jtuf|3.16.09 @ 2:22PM|#
Mike Laursen, vertical growing might not be economically feasible, I'll grant that. My main point is that it might work and someone is willing to try it, but the city laws are a barrier to even trying it. Most new ideas end up not working. That's why we have to try hundreds of them. If the law keeps builders from even trying a new type of building, it will be much more difficult to revive declining cities.
Russ 2000|3.17.09 @ 12:14PM|#
I've heard of turning trees into textbooks, but never thought textbooks could turn into trees.
Russ 2000|3.17.09 @ 12:15PM|#
Box Elders are amazing trees or weeds when it comes to
inhospitable areas. The most amazing trees that grow in urban areas
are Ailanthus trees, which was probably what the tree that was
mentioned above growing on roofs. Both species are useless as urban
trees though.
Primary succession.
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