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Ask Not What Your Education Can Do for You...
While researching this week's column, I was struck by this passage about education in President Obama's recent speech to Congress (emphasis added):
It is our responsibility as lawmakers and educators to make this system work. But it is the responsibility of every citizen to participate in it. And so tonight, I ask every American to commit to at least one year or more of higher education or career training. This can be community college or a four-year school; vocational training or an apprenticeship. But whatever the training may be, every American will need to get more than a high school diploma. And dropping out of high school is no longer an option. It's not just quitting on yourself, it's quitting on your country—and this country needs and values the talents of every American.
The collectivism implicit in this rhetoric is pretty creepy. Evidently all of us have a duty to optimize our educations so we can maximize our earnings and give our country the full benefit of our talents. "Every American will need to get more than a high school diploma," Obama decrees. But why stop there? If someone with strong mathematical and spatial reasoning abilities majors in sociology instead of engineering, it's plain that he will not be giving his country as much value (and tax revenue) as he could. What about the potential doctor who decides to play the violin or the writer who could have been a software developer? Given Obama's premise, it's hard to see why such choices should be permitted, especially when the country is so generously subsidizing higher education.
Elemenope|3.4.09 @ 12:39PM|#
Hey, here's a fun game! Let's take a statement, and then imply
that it is an absolute statement, and then run to the obvious
absurd logical conclusions that would result from taking the
statement as absolute!
Wow!
Hey, here's another fun game! Let's take a statement of rhetorical
flourish and take it as if it were a policy prescription! Then make
fun of that imaginary prescription is if it were real!
Wow, that was really fun!
------------
I usually don't go here, but seriously. I expect better than this
crap.
|3.4.09 @ 12:39PM|#
From each according to his abilities to each according to his
needs.
Where have I heard that before?
|3.4.09 @ 12:40PM|#
LMNOP, would you reconsider if I revealed to you that Obama's actual middle name is "Locutus"?
stuartl|3.4.09 @ 12:46PM|#
"...it is the responsibility of every citizen
to participate in it. And so tonight, I ask every
American to commit to at least one year or more of higher education
or career training."
LMNOP, in what way is this NOT an absolute statement?
|3.4.09 @ 12:51PM|#
Elemenope-
You are overreacting. The very thing of which you accuse Jacob of
doing, you are doing.
|3.4.09 @ 12:51PM|#
"LMNOP, in what way is this NOT an absolute statement?"
In socialism you are not allowed to work for yourself. Instead, you
have to work for the collective. You don't do work out of greed.
Work is not your personal choice. It is your patriotic duty.
|3.4.09 @ 12:55PM|#
Some of the implicit collectivism is already explicit. For example, in Massachusetts, if a doctor wants to become a violinist, he better be prepared to continue to pay the same alimony to his parasite ex-wife as the law will not allow a doctor to become a violinist and thereby reduce the amount of alimony, assuming his income would decline.
|3.4.09 @ 12:55PM|#
Putting aside the whole idea that for some people sitting in a classroom for a year is a waste of time and money, if only because they'd have more fun doing something else.
|3.4.09 @ 12:59PM|#
Elemenope,
The problem is that a lot of the absurd logical conclusions you
speak of are actually becoming reality, so you can't blame us for
running this one up the flag pole, too.
Racism|3.4.09 @ 1:01PM|#
Liberal, Socialsim & Communism,
We need to get together. You guys may be on to something.
|3.4.09 @ 1:01PM|#
No, socialism is socialism is socialism.
Income taxes, progressive income taxes, collective bargaining,
compulsory union membership, susidies and industrial policy are all
constructs of socialism/communism.
Kolohe|3.4.09 @ 1:02PM|#
"in what way is this NOT an absolute statement?"
where it says 'ask'
as long as you can tell the person who's asking to pack sand, i'll
put my fascism detector back on standard scan.
(the next sentences are of a more directive tone, but I agree with
the 'rhetorical flourish' school on it)
Kolohe|3.4.09 @ 1:04PM|#
And really, people shouldn't drop of of high school. Sorry to get all judgemental and stuff.
|3.4.09 @ 1:04PM|#
LMNOP,
The sooner scary ideas like, "You don't go to school to improve
your own life, but to improve the respublica/reich/commonweal," are
nipped in the bud, the better. It's like people bitching about the
possibility of a revived Fairness Doctrine or compulsory national
service even though there are no concrete plans for them yet; we
gotta strangle these monsters in the cradle.
Vines & Cattle|3.4.09 @ 1:05PM|#
"Ask not what you can do for your country, let me tell you what
you can do for your country."
Eek.
|3.4.09 @ 1:05PM|#
Shall we examine this line?
It is our responsibility as lawmakers and educators to make this system work.
With responsibility comes accountability. Does the NEA, AFT or
Democratic politicians want to be held accountable for the schools
in D.C. or my hometown? Will the congress or state legislature hold
Detroit Public Schools accountable by taking the funding away from
the dysfunctional, corruption riddled bureaucratic fuck story and
give the long suffering poor families in Detroit or D.C. vouchers
so their kids could get educated in a safer, more enriching
environment?
Stupid questions, I know. Democratic politicians care far more for
teachers unions than they do for the poor.
Dead Horse|3.4.09 @ 1:07PM|#
Liberal, Socialism, Communism, & Racism,
You guys heard any good jokes lately?
|3.4.09 @ 1:07PM|#
I love it when a leader says "We're going to need everyone to get behind our new plan". I can reply "I am not behind your new plan. I promise you I'm going to work against it as best I'm able. So if you really need everyone's support, then you shouldn't implement this plan because I can guarantee it's failure."
Jennifer|3.4.09 @ 1:07PM|#
Why stop at one year of college? If every American got a Ph.D., we would all be wealthy scientific researchers and the economy would improve because we could supplement our household spending with that sweet Nobel Prize money. Let's all work together to make a mere high school diploma even more useless than it already is.
|3.4.09 @ 1:09PM|#
LMNOP, ever told a cop no when he "asks" you to do
something?
Try it sometimes, it's instructive about the governmental agent
definition of ask.
Ska|3.4.09 @ 1:10PM|#
I'm with LMNOP. Anyone can pretty much shrug their shoulders and say fuck off. It's rhetorical bullshit, and the more the president says stuff like this the less people will listen to it (I hope).
|3.4.09 @ 1:11PM|#
No one has yet raised the point that WHAT THE FUCK GOOD IS ONE
YEAR OF COLLEGE?
What, you take Intro to Spanish? WTF?
Burst Thought Bubble|3.4.09 @ 1:11PM|#
If everyone received a B.A., then wouldn't a B.A. be reduced to the current value of a high school education?
|3.4.09 @ 1:11PM|#
Elemenope-
You are overreacting.
He's one of the most intelligent and consistently insightful
posters here, but he does this thing you are talking about
sometimes. But only sometimes.
Barack "Locutus" Hussein Token Obama is going to talk like this for
at least the next four years, so a Hit&Run filled with examples
of collectivist-sounding rhetoric from Obama (especially if he
happens to be preaching to the choir) is going to be a crowded
place.
But yeah, I sort of see LMNOP's point.
|3.4.09 @ 1:12PM|#
WHAT THE FUCK GOOD IS ONE YEAR OF COLLEGE?
I dunno, a person could introduce himself to binge drinking and
gonorrhea.
fyodor|3.4.09 @ 1:13PM|#
No, it's not a policy prescription, and there's no telling if
the sentiment will go further or not, but the point is
that we are responsible for the economic optimization of our
society, a collectivist notion, and that additional education is
necessarily the means to this end, a dubious notion. And the
statement is made by the highest office holder of our government,
which has the means to enforce collecitivism, which, yeah, makes it
a little creepy.
Luckily, I think most likely this will be ignored as universally
and have as little consequence as asking what you can do for your
country! :-)
|3.4.09 @ 1:13PM|#
BTB,
B.A.s aren't all that valuable anyway, at least relative to a
science degree.
|3.4.09 @ 1:13PM|#
Why stop at one year of college? If every American got a
Ph.D., we would all be wealthy scientific researchers and the
economy would improve because we could supplement our household
spending with that sweet Nobel Prize money. Let's all work together
to make a mere high school diploma even more useless than it
already is.
If everybody can graduate from high school, does that not imply
that a high school diploma is worthless?
People exist that are not smart enough to graduate from a high
school that has only middling standards. The push to raise
graduation rates has resulted in lower hurdles, not students
jumping higher.
..|3.4.09 @ 1:14PM|#
He's one of the most intelligent and consistently insightful
posters here
Don't you mean "persistent"? As in 200 comments a day? Some might
call it "obsessive."
|3.4.09 @ 1:15PM|#
Shoot, I'm done. The rest of you without post-graduate degrees need to go out and do good for America.
|3.4.09 @ 1:16PM|#
Don't you mean "persistent"? As in 200 comments a day? Some
might call it "obsessive."
No, I mean he's a smart guy and I'm glad he posts here. Probably
works at a computer or doesn't need to work or whatever. Who
cares?
|3.4.09 @ 1:18PM|#
I dunno, a person could introduce himself to binge drinking
and gonorrhea.
"Yeah, they usually just give me a bunch of antibiotics, the sores
go away, and I walk out."
Don't you mean "persistent"? As in 200 comments a day? Some
might call it "obsessive."
Are you talking about joe or LMNOP?
Jennifer|3.4.09 @ 1:19PM|#
If everybody can graduate from high school, does that not
imply that a high school diploma is worthless?
Of course. But surely you don't expect mere logic to sway people
infected with Lake Wobegon syndrome? If we all work hard, every
single person in America can be above average.
|3.4.09 @ 1:19PM|#
Kolohe-
On this one, Elemenope is far more off the mark than Jacob. First,
Jacob is not off the mark. Second, the "I ask" is contradicted by
"every american will need" and "dropping out of high school is no
longer an option". The latter two are commands. Given Obama's
training, campaign rhetoric, policy prescriptions to date and
common sense, i.e., democrat party politicians love to DFK
collectivist principles, Jacob is on solid ground.
libertarian democrat|3.4.09 @ 1:20PM|#
If everybody can graduate from high school, does that not
imply that a high school diploma is worthless?
Can value not rest in the education something provides instead of
just serving to weed out people?
Paul|3.4.09 @ 1:20PM|#
Hey, here's another fun game! Let's take a statement of
rhetorical flourish and take it as if it were a policy
prescription! Then make fun of that imaginary prescription is if it
were real!
Ok, so we can't pick on the guy for what he says. Because what he
says is, you know, just something he said. We get it.
Welcome to the ever confusing world of "political discussion".
Sorry, what he fucking says is on the table. And will remain
so.
T|3.4.09 @ 1:21PM|#
People exist that are not smart enough to graduate from a
high school that has only middling standards.
I have to think of my workplace when people make suggestions like
"everybody needs a year of college". We have guys out back that I
know for a fact have not graduated from high school. Some, I
question whether or not they even went. But I work in a steel mill
where we pay $10 an hour for somebody with a pulse and all 4 limbs.
These guys don't need a high school diploma for what they do. So
what good is a year of college going to do them? Yeah, some of them
might be able to get a better job. Some won't. Some of my guys are
flat just not smart enough to benefit from additional schooling.
Why waste everybody's time trying to force it on them?
Paul|3.4.09 @ 1:21PM|#
Of course. But surely you don't expect mere logic to sway
people infected with Lake Wobegon syndrome? If we all work hard,
every single person in America can be above average.
Everyone's special, Dash.
Rimfax|3.4.09 @ 1:23PM|#
"You will become a member of the Street Sweepers' Guild."
I'm a bit with the great horned LMNope on this one. Bitching over
someone's rhetoric is a like searching for shit to bitch about.
Though, I am with Jacob that this is some insidiously foul
rhetoric.
There's a reason why I don't listen when politicians and clergymen
speak. I often extend that to even Unitarian clergy.
Reinmoose|3.4.09 @ 1:24PM|#
So why not just add another year on to high school?
(I'm not actually proposing this, standard libertarian disclaimer #
whatever it is)
Dello|3.4.09 @ 1:24PM|#
Epi,
"No one has yet raised the point that WHAT THE FUCK GOOD IS ONE
YEAR OF COLLEGE?
What, you take Intro to Spanish? WTF?"
You can get famous:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngRq82c8Baw
Joshua Holmes|3.4.09 @ 1:25PM|#
My grandfather dropped out of high school to fight in WWII. He
became an airplane mechanic, and by all accounts, did a fine job.
He was honorably discharged.
He went to work in the local chemical plant (still without a high
school diploma). Eventually, he worked his way up to being a clerk.
He worked for 40 years, raised 5 sons including my father, and
retired to Florida. My grandmother never worked.
Today, he would be called an Executive Director of Human Resources,
or something equally ridiculous, and would have to have 6 years of
college, including a master's degree in some sort of
HR-something-or-other from some rinky-dink college no one had ever
heard of.
Clearly, something is broken in our society when you need 6 years
of writing humanities essays to prepare you for the jobs my
grandfather did without a high school diploma just 30 years ago.
Credentialism instead of ability, style over substance. But isn't
that the economy that just crashed?
Kyle Jordan|3.4.09 @ 1:26PM|#
Aren't joe and LMNOP married? And isn't LMNOP a woman? Or is my
mind just really going out for walks several times a day?
No snark here. Thought I read it in a thread before. Could have
been sarcasm though. Just asking.
As to the article...
No sir, I don't like it. Let me be a bum if I want to be a bum.
Paul|3.4.09 @ 1:26PM|#
I'm with LMNOP. Anyone can pretty much shrug their shoulders
and say fuck off. It's rhetorical bullshit, and the more the
president says stuff like this the less people will listen to it (I
hope).
Exactly. I mean, it's not like they're going after
fatty foods or anything.
ObaMao|3.4.09 @ 1:27PM|#
"LMNOP, ever told a cop no when he "asks" you to do
something?
Try it sometimes, it's instructive about the governmental agent
definition of ask."
That cop "asked" that girl to take her shoes off and what did he do
to her when she complied?
imagine if she refused
|3.4.09 @ 1:29PM|#
Yes, Elemenope is one of the brightest and smartest posters at
Hit & Run. I, too, am glad that he posts here.
Today, on this thread, he is attributing qualities to Jacob's piece
that just are not there.
Kolohe|3.4.09 @ 1:29PM|#
libertymike-
fair enough.
But's it that kind of OMGBBQ type responses that made it so it took
4 years before the American people came to the conclusion that the
Iraq war may have been a bad idea.
When many were going around saying "BU$H is a HilterFascist that's
going to draft you to steal oil!", it, like most inflation,
devalued honest criticism.
|3.4.09 @ 1:29PM|#
My HOPE (drink) here is that he's speaking directly to the
idiots who voted for him that have no education and mooch off the
rest of the American people and think he's going to give them a
house and car because he knows they need to rise up to a better
level or the people that already have an education and/or do real
productive work are going to just stop paying their way entirely,
and his, and the fit hits the shan PDQ. Not that any real CHANGE
(drink) could or would ever possibly occur for those schlubs
without His direction.
Nah, that can't be it. Empty rhetoric. That is all.
tarran|3.4.09 @ 1:30PM|#
Hey Joshua,
When is No Treason coming back? Seeing that red X on my RSS feed
for the past few months has been a bit of a downer.
Paul|3.4.09 @ 1:31PM|#
Bitching over someone's rhetoric is a like searching for
shit to bitch about.
Word. Rhetoric
should be totally off
the table.
|3.4.09 @ 1:33PM|#
Well, the way I see it, people aren't going to go get more
education just because Obama says to. He needs to use the army,
which can act outside the Constitution, to round up the
undereducated and to place them in camps. Camps for concentrating.
You know, on education and stuff.
Also, even those with advanced degrees may need some re-education,
to correct certain types of unmutual thinking. Fortunately, the
army can act again. And again. And again.
|3.4.09 @ 1:33PM|#
Exactly. I mean, it's not like they're going after fatty
foods or anything.
Suck it up fatties. You were warned numerous times on these very
pages that you were next.
Kolohe|3.4.09 @ 1:34PM|#
So why not just add another year on to high
school?
Because it's what Canadian socialists do.
Seriously, yes a year of college is pretty much a waste. But a year
of votech or an aprenticeship program - the other thing he mentions
- is not. For instance, the pipeline for a high school graduate to
start operating a nuclear power plant in the navy is around 1 year.
(full qualification is normally at least two.)
|3.4.09 @ 1:37PM|#
Kolohe,
Of course, why not just make all of the people needing an
additional year of education join the armed services!? Brilliant!
We could set up some sort of, what do you call it? Drift?
Druft?
Paul|3.4.09 @ 1:37PM|#
Obama's next book?
The Last Black President
Obama's going to write a book about Bill Clinton?
Kolohe|3.4.09 @ 1:38PM|#
You know, on education and stuff.
And you can get gold stars when you do good!
Astroglide|3.4.09 @ 1:40PM|#
"Seriously, yes a year of college is pretty much a waste. But a
year of votech or an aprenticeship program - the other thing he
mentions - is not. For instance, the pipeline for a high school
graduate to start operating a nuclear power plant in the navy is
around 1 year. (full qualification is normally at least
two.)"
It takes less than a year to become an Electric Lineman (the people
who keep the power lines working). With overtime, they can easily
make six figures. And right now, there is a an industry-wide
shortage of Lineman.
Reinmoose|3.4.09 @ 1:40PM|#
Pro Yoobertate brings up a good point.
If we're constantly being reminded how much better those in the
armed services are better than the rest of us, why isn't there a
bigger push for kids to go into the armed services?
But ah ha! That's where the concept of other sorts of national
service comes from, and that's precisely where Obama is headed.
|3.4.09 @ 1:41PM|#
Smiley faces are better than stars. Smiley faces reflect a classless society; stars are bourgeois tokens of the oppressor.
Kolohe|3.4.09 @ 1:41PM|#
Ontario's Grade 13 is no longer around.
I was not aware of that, thanks. Damn Mulrooney-Harper
Thatcherreaganites.
|3.4.09 @ 1:42PM|#
What about the potential doctor who decides to play the
violin or the writer who could have been a software
developer?
Govt supported violinist positions are reserved for BHO supporters.
They guy who could have been a SW developer has to pay for
them.
Astroglide|3.4.09 @ 1:42PM|#
"Obama's going to write a book about Bill Clinton?"
No, I mean that he is on track to completely destroy this country
to the point where if another black person were to run for the
presidency, people would say, "Oh no, we tried that once
already."
Kolohe|3.4.09 @ 1:43PM|#
stars are bourgeois tokens of the oppressor.
Not if everyone gets a gold star and gets to sew it on his or her
shirt.
nicole|3.4.09 @ 1:45PM|#
Ontario's Grade 13 is no longer around.
Quebec does still have 3-year high schools followed by (optional)
2-year CEGEP or tech/vocational school, though. Which I always
thought was a relatively good system.
|3.4.09 @ 1:47PM|#
Educators always seem to think "more education" is the answer, but I'm left to wonder how happy all those folks with PhDs are going to be when they're working at a gas station. They won't feel like they got screwed, or anything. Or are we planning to do away with all the crappy jobs once everyone's edjumicated?
Reinmoose|3.4.09 @ 1:48PM|#
I think it would be apt to have smiley face stickers that had
were at least more realistic in the message they were sending.
There should be a collection like...
"YOU TRIED!"
"You Completed the Assignment!"
"SO Completely and Totally Wrong! But Good Effort!"
"It's Not Your Fault You Failed!"
Elemenope|3.4.09 @ 1:52PM|#
Maybe I was a little too aflame with "pissed off" this morning
(on another site, someone tried to shut down a conversation by
calling a No True Scotsman *on the second post*, thus proving for
all time that there are in fact No True Scotsman anywhere
anymore)...
But, I guess I am more used to the "libertarian tone under King
Bush the Lesser" than the "libertarian tone under Dear Leader
Obama". I don't see them as equivalent in any way. Sure, from a
dogmatic perspective, both suck, but from out in the real world and
people's every day lives, a marginal tax rate increase is different
in every way than plunging into wars of empire.
LMNOP, ever told a cop no when he "asks" you to do
something?
Yes. He was very polite. It went like this:
-- Do you know how fast you were going? No.
-- Can I search your vehicle? No.
-- Ah well.
But I know what you mean.
But Obama isn't talking about abolishing posse comitatus and using
the marines to go after high school truants, and so I really don't
get why everyone is freaking the hell out over his airy "wouldn't
it be nice if everyone finished school" pronouncements. They call
it a bully pulpit because he gets to stand up with lots of cameras
and make subjective judgments about whether or not it would be
better for the country if everyone could fucking read and right.
Doesn't mean he's going start shooting people who skip class, or
make people take only subjects they are good at, and it's, shall I
say, slightly nutty to glean that implication.
Probably works at a computer...
Yup, in a job I might add, that during the winter is boring as
hell.
Jennifer|3.4.09 @ 1:53PM|#
Educators always seem to think "more education" is the
answer, but I'm left to wonder how happy all those folks with PhDs
are going to be when they're working at a gas station. They won't
feel like they got screwed, or anything. Or are we planning to do
away with all the crappy jobs once everyone's
edjumicated?
It's like a game of musical chairs, and they don't want to admit
that someone will be left standing when the music stops. So instead
of adding more chairs to the circle, they just offer classes in how
to grab a chair for yourself.
|3.4.09 @ 1:54PM|#
Yeah, because every American needs a mostly responsibility-free drinking bringe, subsidized by the tax payers.
|3.4.09 @ 1:55PM|#
In the alternative, instead of educating the undereducated, we could just hit the overeducated on the head with a truncheon. Once for each year of education beyond 12th grade.
Jennifer|3.4.09 @ 1:56PM|#
I really don't get why everyone is freaking the hell out
over his airy "wouldn't it be nice if everyone finished school"
pronouncements.
Because that is not what he said; he said every American has a
"Responsibility" to spend at least one year in school beyond high
school. This sucks for multiple reasons, the main ones being the
idea that education is a "responsibility" rather than a "personal
benefit," and the continued degree inflation that makes a modern
Master's degree worth about as much as a high-school diploma was 50
years ago. (Also, that one year of extra education we all have a
"responsibility" to get is not free; apparently we all have the
"responsibility" to scrape together a year's overpriced tuition at
another bullshit school.
Reinmoose|3.4.09 @ 1:56PM|#
judgments about whether or not it would be better for the
country if everyone could fucking read and
right.
Beautiful
Art|3.4.09 @ 1:57PM|#
"Yup, in a job I might add, that during the winter is boring as
hell."
Only in winter? How I envy you.
Elemenope|3.4.09 @ 2:03PM|#
judgments about whether or not it would be better for the
country if everyone could fucking read and right.
Beautiful
[Facepalm]. Would it make a difference if I told you I was being
distracted by a conversation with the IT guy while I was
typing?
|3.4.09 @ 2:09PM|#
[Facepalm]. Would it make a difference if I told you I was
being distracted by a conversation with the IT guy while I was
typing?
Fucking homophones bite me in the ass as well.
However, if you had written "reed and right" you'd be hailed as a
humorist.
Ska|3.4.09 @ 2:09PM|#
Exactly. I mean, it's not like they're going after fatty
foods or anything.
You're really comparing these two topics? What the fuck does one
have to do with the other?
Changing high school from a four year institution to a 5 year
institution - yeah maybe I can see people discussing that. But it's
not going to happen immediately because the president made some
rhetorical speech about it. Don't people drop out of school and cut
class now? Is that suddenly going to stop?
Seriously, when did a politician talking out of his ass become so
much more than that?
Elemenope|3.4.09 @ 2:10PM|#
Jennifer,
That's an excellent point re:degree inflation.
For the record, I never said I agreed with Obama's saying that it
would help the country if everyone went back to school. Only that
he was saying that and not some super-secret liberal code
for "let's take 'er freedoms, matey!"
I think in the past I've commented along the lines of:
1. College is not for everyone
2. Public school programs are wasteful and ineffective
3. Where the hell have all the trade schools gone?
And re:your point about the use of "responsibility", honestly it is
much easier to read it as a co-opting of the GOP's favorite
rhetorical bludgeon (i.e. "It's about personal
responsibility, folks!") and smacking them around with it.
Back when Frank Luntz was busy cooking up his super-awesome
linguistic weapons for use by the GOP in '92, I don't think they
sufficiently appreciated that the sword is sharp no matter who is
holding it.
|3.4.09 @ 2:10PM|#
Seriously, when did a politician talking out of his ass
become so much more than that?
When he has a filibuster proof majority and the media in his
pocket.
Reinmoose|3.4.09 @ 2:11PM|#
Would it make a difference if I told you I was being
distracted by a conversation with the IT guy while I was
typing?
Are you saying that his illiterateness rubbed off on you
temporarily?
|3.4.09 @ 2:14PM|#
As someone with more than two graduate degrees, can I chime in
from personal experience and state that most education is merely
learning how to jump through Authority's hoops?
I wonder why BHO would support _that_?
Reinmoose|3.4.09 @ 2:15PM|#
And re:your point about the use of "responsibility",
honestly it is much easier to read it as a co-opting of the GOP's
favorite rhetorical bludgeon (i.e. "It's about personal
responsibility, folks!") and smacking them around with it. Back
when Frank Luntz was busy cooking up his super-awesome linguistic
weapons for use by the GOP in '92, I don't think they sufficiently
appreciated that the sword is sharp no matter who is holding
it.
Aye - but the democrats have their own linguistic weapons lately
and they are working very very well. I don't think the word
"responsibility" is such a GOP thing as it is a national greatness
thing (the GOP stopped using that word around a decade ago).
The dems use "philosophy" and "ideology" like it's nobody's
business, and they use them effectively. They have successfully
taken back and framed the "debate"
|3.4.09 @ 2:15PM|#
I don't think a single one of you got my reference. You all
disgust me.
Would it make a difference if I told you I was being distracted
by a conversation with the IT guy while I was typing?
So who is your "it" guy this week? You're such a whore.
JB|3.4.09 @ 2:18PM|#
Fuck Obama. That fool and all you suckers can work and send me money. I'm done being a producer.
|3.4.09 @ 2:19PM|#
Episiarch,
I thought you might be doing a Highlander bit, but I
wasn't paying any attention. You're not educated enough for me and
Obama.
JB|3.4.09 @ 2:26PM|#
Anyone see Obama's new plan to give free money to people with
$700,000 mortgages?
I am more than angry.
|3.4.09 @ 2:27PM|#
I knew that I should've bought a million dollar home and defaulted on it. Dammit!
|3.4.09 @ 2:32PM|#
Take a look at all the HS dropouts on this list and then think
about this ask for a commitment:
http://www.millionairedropouts.com/millionaire.php/The_Millionaire_Dropout_List/
Xeones|3.4.09 @ 2:58PM|#
Are you saying that his illiterateness rubbed off on you
temporarily?
As a well-bred and literate man who yet toils in the swampy morass
that is Information Technology, i take exception to your slanderous
aspersions, and demand satisfaction. Pistols at dawn, sir!
|3.4.09 @ 3:07PM|#
erf,
I'm just going to look at your syntax and agree with BO...
That list is heavily padded with actors/actresses/musicians. Casey
Stengel? Charles Dickens? Hans Christian Anderson? They could also
be on a website called millionaireatriskforpolio.com. Times have
changed a little.
gmatts|3.4.09 @ 3:11PM|#
Perhaps Obama is forgetting Judge Smail's words of wisdom that "The world needs ditchdiggers, too.". I don't see why ditchdiggers need higher education, or when they'll have the time for homework anyway considering all the work that Obama has for them "repairing our crumbling bridges and schools".
Art|3.4.09 @ 3:15PM|#
"Take a look at all the HS dropouts on this list and then think
about this ask for a commitment:
http://www.millionairedropouts.com/millionaire.php/The_Millionaire_Dropout_List/"
Well maybe if they had gratuated from high school, they'd all be
BILLIONAIRES!
|3.4.09 @ 3:16PM|#
Ok, this is my first time posting so we'll see if my html works
the way I think.
All you guys talking about the worthlessness of 1 year of college,
did you not read the whole passage?
And so tonight, I ask every American to commit to at least one
year or more of higher education or career
training.
Sure there are plenty of people who won't benefit from a short
academic stint. But what Obama is saying is that they might still
benefit from some sort of training. In addition to formal
schooling, apprenticeships and vocational schools were also
advocated.
Paul|3.4.09 @ 3:22PM|#
[Facepalm]. Would it make a difference if I told you I was
being distracted by a conversation with the IT guy while I was
typing?
You fuckwads always blame your goddamn 1D10t errors on the
IT people. Oscar Echo, son, Oscar Echo.
Paul|3.4.09 @ 3:24PM|#
Seriously, when did a politician talking out of his ass
become so much more than that
Bah, the President just said some shit, that's all. Get
off his back, already!
No further comment necessary.
|3.4.09 @ 3:25PM|#
Elemenope and Kolohe-
Yeah, I am the first one to nitpick statements, observations,
conclusions, etc., that are too broad and/or do not account for all
of the facts and nuances of the subject matter. Where I might
differ with the two of you is how one should then assess, consider,
evaluate and weigh whateverelse the speaker who is guilty of
brushing too broadly has to say. IMO, legitimate criticism is no
less legitimate because the person who is doing the criticizing
also engages in hyperbole.
Paul|3.4.09 @ 3:27PM|#
And re:your point about the use of "responsibility",
honestly it is much easier to read it as a co-opting of the GOP's
favorite rhetorical bludgeon (i.e. "It's about personal
responsibility, folks!") and smacking them around with
it.
That's why we don't like the GOP either.
Paul|3.4.09 @ 3:31PM|#
I don't see why this is so hard.
The President said some shit.
That shit the President said was...creepy.
Jacob Sullum felt it was creepy and made a blog post on it.
Successful by blogpost standards, 103 comments and counting.
Sullum described why he felt it was creepy. Fairly
succinctly, I might add.
Obamatrons are pissed because someone made some comments on said
shit said President said.
That's how this fucking political new multi-media world works
folks. The president says shit, we comment on it.
Paul|3.4.09 @ 3:43PM|#
I'm doing some thinking about past Presidents sayin' shit that
got commented on...usually along the lines of
WTF?!111LOLZ?!!11
Someone help me guide the WayBack machine here. Didn't President
Bush, during a state of the Union address throw some random
comments about Steroid use in Baseball* which pretty much caused
everyone to look at eachother in amazement and ask what in hades he
was talking about?
*obviously this was long before any senate immbestigations on
steroid use in baseball.
grammar|3.4.09 @ 4:28PM|#
Evidently each of us has a duty to optimize
our educations so we can maximize our earnings and
give our country the full benefit of our talents.
JS is just scared they are gonna make him start doing something he
is actually good at.
Paul|3.4.09 @ 4:28PM|#
I fully support LMNOP's first comment.
Of course you do. We get it. Presidential Rhetoric is now
off-limits. Check.
Neu Mejican|3.4.09 @ 4:31PM|#
Paul,
No.
That was not LMNOP's point...at all.
It was a comment on the lack of substance in JS's critique, NOT a
call to avoid criticism of the president.
Neu Mejican|3.4.09 @ 4:35PM|#
For Paul,
The way it works is this.
JS writes something that means something about something the
president said.
Someone comments that the SUBSTANCE of that comment is pretty
stupid.
Paul jumps in with defense of the PROCESS of commenting on the
presidents words.
Avoiding the SUBSTANCE of both the original comment and the
SUBSTANCE of the comment calling that SUBSTANCE stupid.
|3.4.09 @ 4:36PM|#
Sorry, but I found Obama's rhetoric a little disturbing, too. It's not much more than "ask not what your country can do for you", but I'm concerned with the tone. The guy's got about zero checks on his power, which makes anything he says scary.
ChrisO|3.4.09 @ 4:57PM|#
That statement is creepy and totalitarian-sounding.
Period.
My version of this would read: "In today's world, you're probably
wise to get some kind of post-secondary education or training. If
you choose not to, don't come knockin' on the taxpayers' door for
help down the road."
T|3.4.09 @ 5:35PM|#
Avoiding the SUBSTANCE of both the original comment and the
SUBSTANCE of the comment calling that SUBSTANCE stupid.
You're verging perilously close to SUBSTANCE abuse here, NM. Don't
make us send a SWAT team to shoot your dog.
Paul|3.4.09 @ 6:05PM|#
Paul jumps in with defense of the PROCESS of commenting on
the presidents words.
Avoiding the SUBSTANCE of both the original comment and the
SUBSTANCE of the comment calling that SUBSTANCE stupid.
Interesting but not quite. But I ain't mad at ya, because I don't
reall all the comments on all the threads either.
Sullum wrote a blogpost about the substance of some rhetoric spewed
by Dear Leader. LMNOP didn't like Sullum's conclusions, going
further to complain that Sullum was complaining about "Rhetorical
Flourish". Others jumped in and defended LMNOP SPECIFICALLY
espousing their distaste of taking Politicians to task on their
rhetoric. (lmnop: Let's take a statement of rhetorical flourish
and take it as if it were a policy prescription! Then make fun of
that imaginary prescription is if it were real!)
Dumbfounded that anyone would find fault with even the discussion
about Presidential rhetorical flourishes (LMNOP's own words) I felt
I had to respond. So, nice try, but the line between the PROCESS
and the SUBSTANCE is too blurred in this case.
Craig|3.4.09 @ 7:06PM|#
Okay.... I earned my MBA 8 years ago, for the good of the country and society, and it helped my income go up, so why is the government taking MORE from me? Shouldn't they be taking LESS, in appreciation for my service to others?
Craig|3.4.09 @ 7:12PM|#
No one has yet raised the point that WHAT... GOOD IS ONE
YEAR OF COLLEGE?
If you're a basketball prodigy, it can qualify you for the NBA
draft, since they no longer take 18-year-olds....
Fascism|3.4.09 @ 7:14PM|#
Communism, liberal, racism, and socialism:
At least people recognize you when they see you. They call me
things like "public-private partnerships" or "bailouts" or
"stimulus plans".....
|3.4.09 @ 8:38PM|#
A great tyrant, one who really was committed to an educated population, would've said, "You have three years to acquire at least an associates degree, if you don't have one already. At the end of the three years, if you haven't achieved that national goal, you die."
Sgt Mom|3.4.09 @ 8:46PM|#
Well, then - OK, fall in the obedient peasants. I've got a
degree in English, a lot of military professional education, and
everything but the final and the thesis on a Masters (in public
administration and about thirty years ago so I hardly feel that I
should include that on my CV)
So, where do I have to go to let the One and his merry band of
non-taxpaying cronies bleed off about a third to a half of my
income?
|3.4.09 @ 8:47PM|#
Alpha children wear grey. They work much harder than we do, because they're so frightfully clever. I'm awfully glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard. And then we are much better than the Gammas and Deltas. Gammas are stupid. They all wear green, and Delta children wear khaki. Oh no, I don't want to play with Delta children. And Epsilons are still worse. They're too stupid to be able to read or write. Besides they wear black, which is such a beastly color. I'm so glad I'm a Beta
|3.4.09 @ 8:51PM|#
It is another of Obama asinine speeches which sound "wonderful"
for a second but then on further examination is actually as stupid
as dirt.
Commit to ONE more year of college? One?
First year of college is a waste until you actually get to the real
classes unless you are in anything that ends with "studies" then
you are on a path which is always going to be a drain on this
nation.
H*ll look at Barry himself, Obama went to school for years but
failed in producing any worth in the private sector and resorted to
a life of appropriating other people's tax money to enrich himself,
his wife and his friends.
How sad is that a large number of liberals were awestruck with a 45
year old man who ran on his college degrees as his primary
qualification for the Presidency?
Elemenope|3.4.09 @ 9:00PM|#
Paul, you completely missed the thrust of what I was saying; New
Mejican is correct.
What I was complaining about *most specifically* was the tendency
of some to pass off criticism of rhetoric as criticism of
policy, through eliding the difference between the two.
Criticizing presidents and other politicians for their use of
rhetoric is awesome, great, and all that stuff. It is also, for the
most part highly subjective and inside-baseball besides. What
affects most Americans is not the way in which a politician phrases
their vales but rather what policies they implement or end.
If this were Jacob Sullum's personal blog, to talk about his
personal feelings and aesthetic priorities, it would have made a
great deal of sense for him to talk about his feelings of Obama's
creepiness for using rhetoric which might suggest a certain mindset
(if we didn't all know better in that addresses like this are
tweaked within an inch of their lives to be calculated for maximum
rhetorical and populist impact, and whose rhetorical content
reflects very little but the aggregation of poll group
results).
But it ain't Sullum's blog. It's Hit & Run. And while
reason.com is absolutely free to give whoever whatever microphone
to say whatever, they do bill themselves as a fairly respectable
policy criticism and analysis shop, and so here his bellyaching
seems utterly out of place.
And the fact that this particular set of bellyaching feeds into a
more general gestalt of paranoia about Obama the likes of which I
have seen little parallel here when the subject was *Bush*, I am
unimpressed by the relevance of the post beyond a general
continuing emotion reaction to the "other half" winning control. It
reduces Hit & Run to the level of The Daily Show, but,
y'know, less funny.
And that last is not meant as a dig; there are experts for making
fun of rhetorical flourishes, and they are somebody else. What we
need are folk who are willing to analyze actual *policy*
prescriptions to see what their objectionable content and failings
are, so we can be more informed. So long as folk go after the
low-hanging fruit, that important part will continue to be obscured
under a miasma of emotional appeals and insubstantial shots.
|3.4.09 @ 9:01PM|#
Oh get real people.
This is Obama telling black kids to stay in school and do something
with their lives while avoiding the scourge of telling them to be
just like whitey.
Classic Obama; trying to have his waffle and eat it too.
Yes it's creepy, because it's Obama trying to say one thing but
revealing his trueself.
A lot like his off the cuff remarks to a certain Ohio handyman.
|3.4.09 @ 9:02PM|#
I guess this is Dear Leader's best adaption of Lombardi - if you
drop out, you're off the welfare rolls.
Pretty lame, just like his 2 trillion dollar advocacy-group
payoff...er..."emergency stimulus."
|3.4.09 @ 9:06PM|#
It reduces Hit & Run to the level of The Daily Show,
but, y'know, less funny.
I'm sorry, but the Daily Show hasn't been funny since Craig Kilborn
hosted it.
Just deal.
Kent G. Budge|3.4.09 @ 9:12PM|#
Collectivism, shmollectivism.
What bothers me more is the dumbing down of standards implicit in
the belief that everyone can profitably make use post-secondary
education. Or can earn a high school diploma, for that matter.
|3.4.09 @ 10:01PM|#
Obama's remarks about education? Gee, they sounded vaguely
familiar. Oh yeah, now I remember....
"Your body belongs to the nation! Your body belongs to the Führer!
You have a duty to be healthy! Food is not a private matter!"
(1930's Nazi health slogan)
|3.4.09 @ 10:33PM|#
The crazy factor has been turned up on this site in the last few
weeks. So much impotent rage.
Good news, when you get laid off you can say you are "Going
Galt".
|3.5.09 @ 2:46AM|#
" Elemenope | March 4, 2009, 12:39pm | #
Hey, here's a fun game! Let's take a statement, and then imply that
it is an absolute statement, and then run to the obvious absurd
logical conclusions that would result from taking the statement as
absolute!
Wow!
Hey, here's another fun game! Let's take a statement of rhetorical
flourish and take it as if it were a policy prescription! Then make
fun of that imaginary prescription is if it were real!
Wow, that was really fun!
------------
I usually don't go here, but seriously. I expect better than this
crap."
I expect better than this crap from a President of The United
States.
This communist clown has done what was once thought impossible; in
less than two months he has made W look like a wise man and rocket
scientist. Who knew?
dhex|3.5.09 @ 9:43AM|#
"And the fact that this particular set of bellyaching feeds into
a more general gestalt of paranoia about Obama the likes of which I
have seen little parallel here when the subject was *Bush*"
well, i'd largely disagree, but i think you're noticing that due to
pedigree. many posters here came from the right, and so carry some
of that cultural baggage. you came from the left and carry some of
that cultural baggage, so picking on chocolate jesus is more
noticeable, perhaps, than picking on bush the younger was.
'cause i don't know about you but bush the younger made me hells of
paranoid. hell, any time anyone invokes the ideology of "your soul
belongs to the state, motherfucker" i get paranoid.
(needless to say i spend most of my time paranoid as all hell.)
|3.5.09 @ 9:54AM|#
Having a competitive, educated populace isn't something that
happens by magic. Same with having a healthy populace. Or one
protected from foreign invasion.
If you guys want to have any relevance at all then you really have
to stop equating every social service with evil communism. It's
juvenile.
|3.5.09 @ 11:23AM|#
I guess Obama would disagree with Aristotle that the state exists for the sake of the individual, and not the other way round. But then Obama is obviously so much smarter . . . .
|3.5.09 @ 11:46AM|#
In return for total submission to this socialist state, what do I get? A complete washing away of my sins? Eternal life in Paradise? Seventy-two virgins? What? All of those and lots more? Throw in a Tesla(US model) and it's a deal.
|3.5.09 @ 4:41PM|#
Of the people, by the people and for the people...
Has Obama heard that old polemic?
jaafar|3.6.09 @ 8:17AM|#
Has it ever occurred to you that half of the people in America have below-average intelligence?
|3.9.09 @ 2:41PM|#
This interpretation seems ideological in the negative sense of that term: made by one wearing blinders, oblivious to context and nuance. Remember who Obama's audience is: those who drop out of high school or never make anything of their lives, most of whom are African-Americans. Like it or not, the President is seen not only as a political but also as a moral leader, especially by African-Americans. His words were meant to, and most likely will, inspire many of them to make something of their lives. As for the last sentence, "It's not just quitting on yourself, it's quitting on your country--and this country needs and values the talents of every American": well, aren't we libertarians concerned about our country - and not only because how our country fares affects us and those we know and care about personally? No doubt, unlike Obama, we think of our country and our contribution to it in entirely voluntaristic terms. But there is an overlap in his and our outlooks and concerns. Hence to interpret his words as simply a call to abject self-sacrifice is to misinterpret them rather blatantly. Such misinterpretations are not only unfair, they are harmful to the cause of libertarians, supporting as they do the charge that we are "just ideologues". That said, I cannot help noting that the first sentence, "It is our responsibility as lawmakers and educators to make this system work," is the truly creepy collectivist one. This is the kind of sentiment we expect from the LEADERS of a PLANNED economy, not from an American President.
Duane Phinney|3.9.09 @ 6:16PM|#
"Why stop at one year of college? If every American got a Ph.D.,
we would all be wealthy scientific researchers and the economy
would improve because we could supplement our household spending
with that sweet Nobel Prize money. Let's all work together to make
a mere high school diploma even more useless than it already
is."
No, we would all be working for $10 per hour.
Objectivism|3.17.09 @ 7:14PM|#
Communism, Socialism, Liberal, and Fascism,
At least people understand you fully. Everyone just assumes I'm
another name for libertarianism. No one even cares about my set of
metaphysics!
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