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A Merciful Fate for Baghdad Metal Band
After four years of lugging Marshall half-stacks across the Middle East, the Iraqi heavy metal band Acrassicauda, subject of the documentary "Heavy Metal in Baghdad," has arrived in the United States. The band members were granted refugee status earlier this month and settled in Elizabeth, New Jersey, presumably because it borders Newark, America's very own Baghdad. The New York Times credits Vice magazine with lobbying on their behalf:
Acrassicauda's primary advocate has been Vice, the Brooklyn-based magazine and media company that made "Heavy Metal in Baghdad." Vice is better known for wisecracking pop-culture commentary than humanitarian aid, but it has been working tirelessly on the band's behalf for a year and a half.
Vice tried to help resettle the members to Canada and Germany, and kept them afloat with cash - as much as $40,000 paid from Vice's own coffers, sponsors and donations collected online, according to Suroosh Alvi, a founder of the company and one of the directors of the film.
And what better way to welcome the guys to New Jersey than giving them backstage passes to a Metallica concert:
And on Sunday night, two days after the last of the band's four members was resettled in the United States, they enjoyed what any metal fan would have to call heaven: bearhugs and "Wow, dude" heart-to-hearts backstage with Metallica at the Prudential Center in Newark. It probably wasn't necessary for James Hetfield, Metallica's lead singer, to surprise them after the show by handing over one of his guitars, a black ESP, and signing it "Welcome to America"; their minds were already blown.
Pretty genius video of Acrassicaudu meeting their metal heroes:
HammeredHead|2.6.09 @ 5:52PM|#
Kudos on referencing Merciful Fate. Haven't heard from them in awhile.
BakedPenguin|2.6.09 @ 6:27PM|#
Michael, it's pretty brave of you to write articles about metal bands. People might get you confused with the other Michael Moynihan.
|2.6.09 @ 6:38PM|#
it borders Newark, America's very own Baghdad
Dude, that was uncalled for. Jersey City is America's
Baghdad.
I laughed. I cried. Metallica still sucks. Discuss.
Metallica: the most boring music ever played and called "metal". I
don't understand how people can listen to 10 minute songs that are
more sterile than women who look at Lane Meyer after he skis the
K-12.
ev|2.6.09 @ 6:43PM|#
Vice.tv is amazing. That's where I first saw the doc. The one
where they quasi-sneak into North Korea is fascinating.
The funniest is when these two reporters go to Chernobyl. They got
drunk there and went chasing after some boars or whatever animals
they were. The guide stopped them because the forest they were
about to enter "will kill you."
Then they pulled out AK-47s and started drunkenly shooting in the
direction of said animals.
|2.6.09 @ 7:01PM|#
I'm happy for them, but ...
I kinda feel that Iraq could use them more back home. With violence
down and the recent election, it would be beautiful to see heavy
metal rock bands playing in Baghdad again. I'm sure there's still
SOME danger to them, it's just ... at moments like this, there's an
opportunity for people to lead by example and give others courage
by getting out there and doing things that used to be unsafe.
Lesbian Until Graduation|2.6.09 @ 7:13PM|#
"I laughed. I cried. Metallica still sucks. Discuss."
Metallica was my introduction to Metal. I still love their
music.
Slightly off topic but since this blog sometimes raises the topic
of IP and this is a thread about a metal band I thought I should
share this site with the posters: http://www.severedfifth.com/
Pepe|2.6.09 @ 7:29PM|#
"...settled in Elizabeth, New Jersey, presumably because it
borders Newark, America's very own Baghdad."
If Newark is America's Baghdad then Elizabeth must be Tikrit. I had
to live there a couple years ago for a temporary assignment in NY.
These guys should feel right at home. Burned out buildings,
abandoned vehicles, economic despair. Actually they may miss Iraq.
At least people are trying to rebuild there.
Jersey sucks. Good place for a metal band though.
Right Wing Realist|2.6.09 @ 7:41PM|#
You would be hard pressed to find a better metal album released in the last three years than "Death Magnetic". St. Anger was a stinker, but the boys are back in form.
squarooticus|2.6.09 @ 9:01PM|#
You would be hard pressed to find a better metal album released in the last three years than "Death Magnetic". St. Anger was a stinker, but the boys are back in form.
Maybe among major label stuff (and I am on record as saying that
Death Magnetic is Metallica's best since MoP).
But there is so much superior metal independently-released or on
smaller labels that your statement is trivially rebutted: Therion's
Gothic Kabbalah, Korplikaani's Korven Kuningas, Canvas Solaris' The
Atomized Dream, Redemption's The Origins of Ruin, Serenity's Words
Untold and Dreams Unlived, Sonata Arctica's Unia, and Riverside's
Rapid Eye Movement are all far better albums, though utterly
unknown by the (m)asses.
thoreau|2.6.09 @ 9:04PM|#
Freedom and Democracy reign in Iraq today.
ORLY? Then why are those metal dudes so determined to stay the hell
away from Iraq?
David|2.6.09 @ 10:04PM|#
There is no freedom in Iraq or any middle eastern Arab country
for western values. These guys would end up targeted as they became
more popular. when women can have freedom of choice and education
without having a male relatives approval, and not be killed or
maimed, then I will say there is freedom. until then, Iraq,
Pakistan, and Afghanistan are just experiments in theory of
democracy.
these guys are where they should be. lets support them.
Noah|2.6.09 @ 10:33PM|#
Although the documentary on these guys claims that they are the only heavy metal band in Iraq, there is also a death metal band I know of called Dog Faced Corpse. The name comes from a murder in which the faction that did the killing sowed a dog's head onto the human corpse to make a statement. Dog Faced Corpse claims to be more "true metal" than Acrassicauda.
Right Wing Realist|2.6.09 @ 11:01PM|#
But there is so much superior metal independently-released or on smaller labels that your statement is trivially rebutted: Therion's Gothic Kabbalah, Korplikaani's Korven Kuningas, Canvas Solaris' The Atomized Dream, Redemption's The Origins of Ruin, Serenity's Words Untold and Dreams Unlived, Sonata Arctica's Unia, and Riverside's Rapid Eye Movement are all far better albums, though utterly unknown by the (m)asses
Most underground metal is unlistenable. Metallica hits the sweet
spot between hardcore and widespread appeal. They are the perfect
band.
I give you that Sonata Arctica is good, but better than Metallica?
You're smoking something.
Head|2.6.09 @ 11:27PM|#
Episiarch | February 6, 2009, 6:38pm | #
it borders Newark, America's very own Baghdad
Dude, that was uncalled for. Jersey City is America's
Baghdad.
Yo, don't knock it till you've been mugged there. I have -
Respeck.
Warty|2.6.09 @ 11:30PM|#
You would be hard pressed to find a better metal album
released in the last three years than "Death Magnetic".
WTF? You must not ever listen to metal.
1
2
3
Ramsey|2.6.09 @ 11:57PM|#
Sorry, the best metal album of the last three years was The Blackening, by Machine Head. The guitar work in Aesthetics of Hate gives me shivers.
Warty|2.7.09 @ 12:27AM|#
Well, I fucked up the last two links, but they were the last two
albums from The Haunted - The Dead Eye and Versus. I think I'd
better see them in April when they come to the states.
Ramsey, The Blackening was pretty good, much better than Death
Magnetic. I'm partial to Swedish bands myself, though.
The_Chef|2.7.09 @ 12:40AM|#
Episiarch | February 6, 2009, 6:38pm | #
Metallica: the most boring music ever played and called "metal". I don't understand how people can listen to 10 minute songs that are more sterile than women who look at Lane Meyer after he skis the K-12.
Very True,
If you want 10 minute metal songs: Opeth is the king of the good
stuff.
Right Wing Realist | February 6, 2009, 7:41pm | #
You would be hard pressed to find a better metal album released in the last three years than "Death Magnetic". St. Anger was a stinker, but the boys are back in form.
Are you fucking kidding me?
Opeth - Watershed
Blotted Science - The Machinations of Dementia
Between the Buried and Me - Colors
And that's just off the top of my head.
waldo|2.7.09 @ 12:48AM|#
This basically makes me think of System of a down Although, maybe it would be ok> I doubt it most metal sucks
Tacos mmm...|2.7.09 @ 12:55AM|#
Metal is great, if you're a 14-year-old guy. I used to love it
back in the day.
I hate to think what it says about libertarians that there are so
many metalheads here.
The_Chef|2.7.09 @ 1:01AM|#
ya know, Tacos ....
a friend of mine at college who doesn't like metal at all told me
that there are two genres of music that are pushing the bounds in
the modern scene: Metal and Bluegrass. I thought about it, and I
realized he's right. Rock is dead, Hip hop is garbage and it's all
the same stuff, pop music is ... horrifyingly over produced. You
might throw Jazz into the mix, prog Jazz is doing some new and
interesting things (still not my cup of tea though).
I suggest you listen to some REAL metal bands before making your
judgment. Opeth, ASG, Katatonia, Blotted Science, Draconian are all
top notch.
Bingo|2.7.09 @ 1:21AM|#
All metal is boring and derivative. Kudos on not being in a hellhole country.
|2.7.09 @ 2:22AM|#
I got into metal back in the day. I was into a lot of the big pre metal bands. Led Zep, Deep Purple, stuff like that. Judas Priest was the real deal. Iron Maiden was my favorite group. Actually saw them on the Number of the Beast tour. Things started sliding with Motley Crue. When Metalica hit the scene I went looking else where in music and never returned. Metalica sucks in every possible way.
tr00)))|2.7.09 @ 3:43AM|#
I was just out driving drunk, and "Damage Inc." came up on the
ol' playlist. I found it a fine bit of classic rock for
driving drunk to.
So no, Metallica don't still suck. They just suck.
And you all suck at metal. Opeth?! "That Bobby Darin is one helluva
folk singer!"
MNG|2.7.09 @ 10:34AM|#
Do we not have a weekend all subjects thread anymore? Is this
supposed to be it?
If so, I'll note that re the long debate that occurred on H&R
over whether Israel's Holiday Military Slaughter was a
disporportionate response to (immoral) Hamas rocket attacks,
Israel's PM recently promised just that:
"We've said that if there is rocket fire against the south of the
country, there will be a severe and disproportionate Israeli
response to the fire on the citizens of Israel and its security
forces," Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said at the weekly cabinet
meeting.
http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=35924
The great thing about apologists for the IDF is how the IDF itself
will often undercut them.
Also, Sri Lankan government forces (a government we give money to
(http://srilanka.usaid.gov/) engaged in some questionable military
actions recently, repeatedly shelling a hospital for example. We
should all urge our government to use whatever leverage it has to
get them to try to follow the rules of war while they try to
suppress the (obviously cowardly and evil) Tamil Tigers.
Lesbian Until Graduation|2.7.09 @ 10:59AM|#
I think this is one great article about the who Israel /
Palestine mess. The entire problem boils down to the very concept
of "state".
http://mises.org/story/3285
|2.7.09 @ 11:33AM|#
Who else is glad that Zarek is dead?
You god damned mother fucking spoiler dickhead. I haven't watched
yet! It's on the TiVo for tonight!
GOD DAMN IT
MetallicaFan|2.7.09 @ 11:40AM|#
Listen to "Hit The Lights", "Master of Puppets", and "Sad but
True", and tell me you think Metallica sucks. Bastards.
You bitches probably like Slipknot.
David|2.7.09 @ 1:35PM|#
TallDave | February 6, 2009, 10:20pm | #
David, why do you hate America?
Where in hell do you get the idea that I hate America?
I'm a realist as far as the middle eastern states are concerned.
they are stuck in what for us is the 9th to 16th century European
Religious and Nationalist history. if you have a stomach for it, go
here and read some of what is going on there.
http://stophonourkillings.com/
if a young woman can be killed for crossing the street 'towards' a
house that has several male members, and be killed for it, then I
for one will not call those people democratic. or if a young
daughter in Basra, falls in love with a westerner she is working
with, and gets killed for it I won't call it democratic. I don't
say the US hasn't tried, but I do say the expectations are not
being met. Even Turkey, India and Pakistan, which are westernized
in some respects, and democratic, still have horror stories to
tell, and are slipping back.
these guys are well out of it.
|2.7.09 @ 1:49PM|#
I suppose it's pretty standard for the next generation to look
at what came before as being...what's the right word? Tepid.
I kinda wasn't much of a fan of Metallica. I kinda hated on 'em for
a long time because of their influence on the scene I loved. So
many of my fave bands back in the day crossed over and went thrash
or speed after '83 and '84. ...after "Kill 'em All". Hardcore was
never the same.
You gotta give 'em credit too for introducing underground music to
a wider audience. Most of you never would have heard of The Misfits
if it hadn't been for Metallica.
No you wouldn't have.
Anyway, I hear metal kids today sometimes talk about "Kill 'em All"
and "Reign in Blood" as if all the music that came later was always
there to judge them against. But it wasn't.
So, yeah, I'm not a fan of theirs. I used to hate on 'em quite a
bit, and you can take most of what they did after "Blaster of
Muppets" and flush it for all I care. But most of the people I hear
talk about how Metallica sucks? They suck.
If you're glad to live in a world where Metallica is tepid Metal,
even if you don't like 'em, I think you have to give Metallica some
credit for that.
P.S. Up yours.
dhex|2.7.09 @ 2:09PM|#
how about we pretend that post-justice for all metallica never
existed and just listen to mastodon instead? (not blood mountain
though, too fucking prog wanky)
"Jersey City is America's Baghdad."
haven't been to jersey city in a while, huh?
David|2.7.09 @ 2:12PM|#
but getting back to the topic of Metal,
as far as the past is concerned, born in the 40's and I go back to
the late 1950's as far as rock is concerned, and yeah, that's
ancient history. but if I am reading Ken right, while the older
music may seem tepid to the younger ear, then tough, it is what we
grew up on, and for some of us old 'ead bangers, it is still good
music. that said, one can't stand still when it comes to music, and
I have been exploring around and finding lots that I like in
current bands. right now Finnland and Germany have a few good bands
that have my attention (with a dash of tinnitus from past listening
habits perhaps, I have a preverence for some harder stuff) Toten
Rosen and Extremo are ok, but I am drifting into Folk Metal. for
purists that may be off the radar beam, but I don't have much time
to be picky ;) so sampling around a lot. like the Finnish groups
that squarooticus | February 6, 2009, 9:01pm mentioned. when I get
some time will pick up some of the Iraqi kids music. right now I
have to get an essay on Hamlet done for Monday ;) doing an interest
course in Grade 12 English, voluntarily (does that make me a
masochist:)
dhex|2.7.09 @ 2:13PM|#
ps the real edge of metal these days is the (inexplicable)
expanding popularity of doom and drone metal. it's like someone
turned on the spigot and said "hey, 20 minute long songs are
cool!"
weirdness.
ps if you miss the thrash days, you can do so much worse than
municipal waste. (their live shows are apparently the most fun
ever)
Underzog|2.7.09 @ 2:40PM|#
What the blazes is the matter with Reason?
The U.N. admitted that Israel did not hit their school in Gaza as
has been widely reported (and condemned) and you clowns report on
rock groups in Bahgdad? (
Did Israel shell U.N. school in Gaza? )?
Israel was once again widely condemned for something deplorable
that they did not do and did not happen.
Is Reason Magazine not reporting on this important U.N. retraction
because it will anger its anti-Semitic, Ernst Rhoem wannabe
readership?
The answer is obvious!
Right Wing Realist|2.7.09 @ 2:42PM|#
All the "underground" metal bands mentioned on this thread are
unlistenable, which proves my point.
If I wanted to listen to kittens put in a blender, I would put
kittens in a blender.
Metallica combines the best from every subgenre of metal.
Right Wing Realist|2.7.09 @ 2:44PM|#
Oh, and if Mexico were shelling us across the border, I sure as
hell hope the US government would have a "disproportionate"
response. If a government can't protect the lives and property of
its citizens, what is it good for?
Governments do not exist to make leftists feel warm fuzzy and
happy.
MNG|2.7.09 @ 2:52PM|#
Wow Underzog, you're a scoundrel, one that would make an SS
officer blush.
Here is how the NY Times reported the matter on Jan. 6th:
"Israeli mortar shells killed as many as 40 Palestinians, among
them women and children, outside a United Nations school in Gaza on
Tuesday where they were taking refuge in the 11th day of the
conflict."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/07/world/middleeast/07mideast.html
Outside a school within a clearly marked UN refugee compound. And
your article's big scoop is
"The 43 people who died in the incident were all outside, on the
street, where all three mortar shells landed."
So your big scoop is no scoop at all.
The fact remains that
Underzog|2.7.09 @ 3:04PM|#
The story is misleading, from the title to where the 43 people
were killed. The in depth investigation from my link sez they died
in the street.
Look... Reason should not be catering to anti-Semites and
Communists allied with anti-Semites. The Ernst Rhoem wannabes have
Stormfront, David Duke's website, and Thunderbolt to read online.
And if they want to hear heavy metal music, the many anti-Semites
that "Reason" caters to can go to RAHOWA which also has a website.
No, I'm not goint to link to them. Reading the comments of the MNG,
Joe, and Fluffy (she wolf of the SS) are bad enough for me.
MAX HATS|2.7.09 @ 3:17PM|#
If I wanted to listen to kittens put in a blender, I would put kittens in a blender.
Trust me, it's not worth the clean up.
MAX HATS|2.7.09 @ 3:18PM|#
Is Reason Magazine not reporting on this important U.N. retraction because it will anger its anti-Semitic, Ernst Rhoem wannabe readership?
The answer is obvious!
Everyone not obsessed with Israel is racist!
Underzog|2.7.09 @ 3:25PM|#
Another reason the Reasonoid would sympathize with the homicide
bombing against the Jews is the miserable life these so-called
Palestinians have, in part because of the rampant sodomy/pederasty
and/or paedophilia that goes on in the Arab socities.
The Libertarian party is the the child molesters party
and when an Arab man in the territories sodomizes an Arab youth*,
he is merely engaging in "intergenerational sex" to the Libertarian
party.
But this leads to the utter misery of the these Arab socities and
the street theatre/blood lust of homicide bombing helps relieve the
suffering. As James Taranto said, "Homicide bombing is the crack
cocaine of the Arab world."
Maybe the many anti-Semites in "hit and run" would admire the Arab
men for such "intergenerational sexual practices." Why would you
guys criticize such heroes?
*See
4th, 5th and 6th paragraphs into the article
Kolohe|2.7.09 @ 3:32PM|#
it's like someone turned on the spigot and said "hey, 20
minute long songs are cool!"
weirdness.
Wasn't it only with the invention of the phonograph that most music
began to be segmented in 5 min or less blocks?
I remember a PJ O'Rourke quip in one of his books that said
Wagner's Ring cycle takes 3 days to play.
Elemenope|2.7.09 @ 3:38PM|#
Is Reason Magazine not reporting on this important U.N.
retraction because it will anger its anti-Semitic, Ernst Rhoem
wannabe readership?
Nah. Honestly, I think they do it just to piss you off.
How does it feel, knowing that your very presence prevents
TheTruth(tm) from coming out? How does it feel to be such a tool
that your own side doesn't invite you to meetings anymore? How does
it feel?
|2.7.09 @ 3:41PM|#
"Nah. Honestly, I think they do it just to piss you
off."
Yeah, my understanding is too that from the time they get up 'til
the time they go to bed, it's all about the trolls.
Underzog|2.7.09 @ 3:42PM|#
How does it feel, knowing that your very presence prevents TheTruth(tm) from coming out? How does it feel to be such a tool that your own side doesn't invite you to meetings anymore? How does it feel?Keep away from the hashish when you post.
Elemenope|2.7.09 @ 4:05PM|#
Keep away from the hashish when you post.
Well, do you think that your presence here:
a. Convinces people to agree with you
or
b. Drives people even further away from your position
You may be deluded enough to think "a" but, newsflash, it's "b".
You aren't helping your cause.
The Expatriate|2.7.09 @ 4:06PM|#
re: Underzog
Now, I'll be the first person to agree with you that MNG and others
of his ilk have an obsession with Israel (aka. Blood Libel 2.0)
that borders on monomania.
However, just what in the holy fuck are you on about with
libertarians and pedophiles? Honestly, you're going to need to come
up with a more authorative source than some ascii-text paranoid
rant posted on the Internet 18 years ago.
Elemenope|2.7.09 @ 4:16PM|#
Oh, and Epi, get fucking watching BSG so we here can talk about it without spoiling shit!
Kolohe|2.7.09 @ 4:17PM|#
However, just what in the holy fuck are you on about with
libertarians and pedophiles?
Well, there was whatsherface with
(Note: I honestly can't remember if Ruwart was taken out of context
with this. And besides, Weigel is part of the conspiracy, right?.
He and Sugarfree are part of every conspiracy.)
On a complete different note:
When you're an airline captain that puts his plane in water, you're
a hero. When you're a ship captain that puts his vessel on a
runway,
not so much.
dfd|2.7.09 @ 4:41PM|#
When you're a ship captain that puts his vessel on a runway,
not so much.
Oops. Definitely a career ender. Unlike politics where the phrase
"I take responsibility" is as meaningless as it is trite, the Navy
has a bit more substantive take on the concept with regard to ship
captains. Bad enough to ground a ship anywhere, but right in front
of HNL for all the tourists to point at? Embarrassing.
Warty|2.7.09 @ 4:44PM|#
Have you watched it yet Epi? I wanna talk about how they wasted
a perfectly good opportunity when Roslin went all Kahlan with rage.
She should have caused huge amounts of damage in a blind
rage.
Holy shit, I'm a nerd. Here, listen to the nerdiest song
ever.
|2.7.09 @ 4:50PM|#
God damn you Warty. But I was able to avoid whatever you wrote about the show in your last post. I'm watching it in about two hours.
|2.7.09 @ 4:55PM|#
Is Slipknot metal? Man that shit stinks.
Underzog, the story Reason is ignoring is the Iraqi election. The
same old crapping on Israel piques little interest.
Warty|2.7.09 @ 4:58PM|#
Is Slipknot metal? Man that shit stinks.
There are very few American bands that I'd call metal. The
aforementioned Municipal Waste, I guess. Lamb of God, maybe.
Why is it that half of us are metalheads, and at least half are
sci-fi geeks? Is there a strong correlation between libertarianism
and late loss of virginity, or something?
MNG|2.7.09 @ 5:13PM|#
"Now, I'll be the first person to agree with you that MNG and
others of his ilk have an obsession with Israel (aka. Blood Libel
2.0) that borders on monomania."
Yeah, because I never, ever post here about anything else that
riles me up, ever. It's just Israel 24 seven on my end.
I'm pretty sure that until they slaughtered a few hundred civilians
I had not posted about Israel in months. But I sure posted a lot
about other things. And all my anti-Semitic comments, well, there
are none. Up in the right hand corner there is a search mechanism,
so seek and find these comments.
Unless you think to criticize policies of the government of Israel
is the same as anti-Semitism. Which is kind of nutty, isn't it?
MNG|2.7.09 @ 5:16PM|#
Animal welfare. Unions. Global warming. Torture. Strangers with
candy. That stuff never gets me worked up enough to post.
Yeah.
Who has time for those things when you're obsessed with Israel?
Back to poring over my maps of Israeli Occupation and
Oppression...
Underzog|2.7.09 @ 5:46PM|#
I'm pretty sure that until they slaughtered a few
hundred civilians defend themseveles against my fellow
anti-Semites I had not posted about Israel in months. But I
sure posted a lot about other things. And all my anti-Semitic
comments, well, there are none. Up in the right hand corner there
is a search mechanism, so seek and find these
comments.THERE.... FIXED IT.
Underzog|2.7.09 @ 6:20PM|#
Couldn't find one, huh Underzog?You just gave me all the proof I needed for your anti-Semitism, Mr. Nice Guy.When Israel was being terrorized by murderous rockets for years you said nothing, but when those Jews (descendants of apes and pigs?) fight back, then you go beserk. I've said it countless times that anti-Semites always hate it when Jews fight back. I only wish I could set those screams to music or sumping.
MNG|2.7.09 @ 6:34PM|#
Have I ever criticized Jews for fighting back? Now, that's not
the same as criticizing the methods they may choose in fighting
back. In fact I've said repeatedly that I supported many of their
more limited strikes against their foes.
Now how is THAT anti-Semitism?
Human Rights Watch, of which I am a member of, publicly condemned
the Hamas rocketing following the cease fire in NOVEMBER, way
before Israel engaged in it's slaughter. Are they
anti-Semites?
Or maybe folks that have a problem with Israeli policy?
"but when those Jews (descendants of apes and pigs?)" It occurs to
me that you have said lots of actually anti-Semitic things in your
posts (attributed psychotically to others of course). I've never
said one.
Of course, you've also said numerous things that makes quite plain
your racism towards Arabs. It strikes me that unless someone shares
your racism towards Arabs you conclude they must be "anti-Semites."
But as the many Jews I know could tell you being Jewish is not
about being anti-Arab (or anti-anything as far as I can figure
out).
MNG|2.7.09 @ 6:35PM|#
I mean, does that mean Underzog is an anti-Semite, a "self-loathing" Jew at heart?
|2.7.09 @ 6:47PM|#
Strangers with candy.
"Hmm, that's funny. Why does your finger smell like
his ass?"
Elemenope|2.7.09 @ 6:58PM|#
So, Epi, have you watched it yet? Or do we have to go all spoiler on your ass?
MNG|2.7.09 @ 6:59PM|#
Tee hee.
I always wonder if all those Colbert fans give props to the show
that made him...
Hey Epi, caught the new Abrams Star Trek ad during the Super Bowl.
Looked like it might not suck.
Maybe.
(fingers crossed)
Now leave me be, I'm busy desecrating a Torah and painting
Swastikas around the house like any good anti-Semite fills his
Saturday nights...
|2.7.09 @ 7:01PM|#
I'm going to watch it now. Spoil away. Next time I check this thread, I'll have watched it.
Underzog|2.7.09 @ 7:06PM|#
Human Rights Watch, of which I am a member of, publicly
condemned the Hamas rocketing following the cease fire in NOVEMBER,
way before Israel engaged in it's slaughter. Are they
anti-Semites?
It's Human Rights Watch -- not Israel -- that should be
investigated for its false and tendentious reporting of the Jewish
State.
HRW idiotic description of Israel's use of phosphorous while Hamas
does use phosphorous in its rockets in such a criminal
manner.
And where does a prosecutor such as Ken Roth come off saying Israel
has no right to hit military installations if they use civilians as
shields?
An idiot anti-Semite such as Mr. Nice Guy may not understand the
international law principle behind it, but an exprosecutor such as
Ken Roth (head of HRW) would not be so ignorant.
As for Mr. Nice Guy's earlier contention that Jews cannot be
anti-Semites, columnist Steve Plaut says that religious Jews are
supposed to pray for the death of Jewish anti-Semites three times a
day.
It's ridiculous to say with Norman Finkelstein, Tony Judt, Eric
Weber; etc., there is no such thing as a Jewish anti-Semite.
And Mr. Nice Guy, tell your slimey leader to stop using the
holocaust to justify his attempts to bring about another one
against the Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors of the
holocaust in Israel!
MNG|2.7.09 @ 7:14PM|#
Undie, you are hilarious. Really, like performance art or
something.
Where did I say Jews can't be anti-Semites (though I admit that's a
strang notion indeed)?
About HRW, you stated that I was an anti-Semite because "When
Israel was being terrorized by murderous rockets for years you said
nothing, but when those Jews (descendants of apes and pigs?) fight
back, then you go beserk." So I pointed out that HRW has often
criticized Hamas' actions, but also Israel.
So obviously what makes a person an anti-Semite in your eyes is not
that they did not condemn Hamas' actions, which HRW clearly and
repeatedly has done, but that they criticize Israel at all.
So a person would have to issue no criticisms of Israeli actions to
not be an anti-Semite? That's incredible.
MNG|2.7.09 @ 7:17PM|#
"And Mr. Nice Guy, tell your slimey leader to stop using the
holocaust to justify his attempts to bring about another one
against the Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors of the
holocaust in Israel!"
And really, you're too much at times. HRW for example repeatedly
and loudly criticizes Iran (which I gather you're psychotically
talking about). Here's a recent one headlining their Middle East
page currently.
http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2009/01/08/iran-freedom-expression-and-association-kurdish-regions
Elemenope|2.7.09 @ 7:18PM|#
And Mr. Nice Guy, tell your slimey leader to stop using the
holocaust to justify his attempts to bring about another one
against the Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors of the
holocaust in Israel!
WTF does this even mean?
Underzog|2.7.09 @ 7:26PM|#
And really, you're too much at times. HRW for example
repeatedly and loudly criticizes Iran (which I gather you're
psychotically talking about).
Not at all....
I'm talking about your leader at Human Rights Watch, Ken
Roth.
Ken Roth always mentions that his father fled the holocaust so he
has the right to bash Israel. MNG ridiculed people who bring up the
holocaust in trying to defend Israel btw... but the
holocaust....
Your leader, Ken Roth, is a scum that brings false charges against
Israel that even the vicious United Nations will not bring.
And judging from the comments of your fellow Rhoemites, they're
even stupider than you are.
"Anti-Semitism is the intellectualism of stupid people."
Mary McCarthy
MNG|2.7.09 @ 7:27PM|#
LMNOP
Even funnier than Undie's conclusion that I must be an anti-Semite,
he also has concluded that I must be an Arab (perhaps this is part
of his usual racist attributions of negative qualities to "the
Arabs"). Interestingly then he posits that my "leader" must be
Iran's leader. Of course, Iranians are not Arabs, but all that is
silly nuance to one such as Undie...
MNG|2.7.09 @ 7:31PM|#
"Ken Roth always mentions that his father fled the holocaust so
he has the right to bash Israel. MNG ridiculed people who bring up
the holocaust in trying to defend Israel btw"
Huh?
Whut? You seriously think Ken Roth is trying to bring about another
holocaust? How does his organizations repeated denunciations of
Hamas' actions flow with that goal?
Did your parents keep you in a basement all your childhood with
nothing but red meat and a Betamax copy of Exodus?
MAX HATS|2.7.09 @ 7:37PM|#
Of all the obviously real-life-crazy posters here, Underzog
takes the cake. And that is saying something.
Seriously, what does anything here have to do with Israel? What the
fuck?
MNG|2.7.09 @ 7:40PM|#
Max
Dude, that is my fault. Upthread I posted something about Israel
because I thought this might be the "Weekend thread" that Reason
used to have all the time and where any subject could be brought
up. Underzog, whom seems to never post here EXCEPT on Israel issues
(and Ex-pat accuses me of having monomania about the issue!) of
course inevitably responded with his jibber jabber, but that's my
bad man and I apologize.
MNG|2.7.09 @ 7:44PM|#
But Undie's over the topnness is just a function of the ever dwindling effectiveness of Israeli apologists to get folks to just ignore or applaud anything Israel does. Calling people who criticize Israel "anti-Semites" is what some of these folks feel is their best card, and so he's desperately playing it to a hilarious extent.
Underzog|2.7.09 @ 7:49PM|#
"Mr. Nice Guy": Whut? You seriously think Ken Roth is trying
to bring about another holocaust? How does his organizations
repeated denunciations of Hamas' actions flow with that
goal?
Anyone who isn't anti-American or anti-Semitic on
this board (not a great number of people) please read these links
and acquaint yourself with Ken Roth and MNG's organization:
Human Rights Watch hires another pro-Palestinian Activist
Report on HRW's activities in 2006: Political Bias Undermines Human
Rights
MNG|2.7.09 @ 7:51PM|#
The simple fact of the matter is that Israel, in response to rocket attaks that killed less than two dozen Israelis (awful and cowardly though) engaged in a military action that killed hundreds of women and children. It's such a palpably wrong thing to do folks like Undie who live to apologize for anything Israel does are overheating in their attempt to defend such atrocious behavior.
MAX HATS|2.7.09 @ 8:06PM|#
Stuck at work. I'll play!
Israel had every right to do what it did in Gaza. However, the
policy of settlements is a crime against humanity, exactly on par
with what we did to the Indians. It was wrong in the 19th century,
and it is certainly wrong in the 21st.
|2.7.09 @ 8:27PM|#
Fuck, Adama is a hardass. I'd have spared Gaeta. As for Zarek,
he's a murderer, so fuck him.
So Helen (Ellen?) is confirmed as the final. Strange choice. I'd
bet a lot of money they pulled it out of their ass and had no idea
who was what when Tigh killed her.
Elemenope|2.7.09 @ 8:31PM|#
I'm confused. Isn't "underzog" what rabid anti-Semites get
tattooed on their arms? I mean, I very occasionally pick up a SPLC
newsletter, and they once said that "under zog" refers to "under
Zionist-occupied government", a bullshit canard that whackos use to
refer to the US government. I mean, it's plausible.
I'm still confused about all the other jibberjabber, but that one's
been bugging me for a while.
Elemenope|2.7.09 @ 8:36PM|#
Fuck, Adama is a hardass. I'd have spared Gaeta. As for
Zarek, he's a murderer, so fuck him.
Nah, he did tell him there would be no mercy this time. The only
thing I was surprised about was that Gaeta didn't kill Zarek
himself before committing suicide right at the end, there. That's
the way I'd have played it, had I been writing the show.
Wasting the Quorum took me by surprise, but it was a logical
move.
But speaking of bad-asses, fucking Romo Lampkin with a fucking pen?
Dude, that guard guy got aggroed something fierce.
And what was it the chief saw in the engine room?
MAX HATS|2.7.09 @ 8:49PM|#
I'm still confused about all the other jibberjabber, but that one's been bugging me for a while.
I've noticed that too. Also: note that whenever he accuses someone
of antisemtism, he'll throw in some totally over the top
antisemetic language. Such as:
but when those Jews (descendants of apes and pigs?) fight back
What the hell?
Totally crazy.
|2.7.09 @ 9:08PM|#
The only thing I was surprised about was that Gaeta didn't
kill Zarek himself before committing suicide right at the end,
there. That's the way I'd have played it, had I been writing the
show.
Totally inconsistent with Gaeta's character. Yeah, great effect,
but it would be bad writing. Gaeta went out like Gaeta. Made
perfect sense to me.
But speaking of bad-asses, fucking Romo Lampkin with a fucking
pen?
That, to me, stood out as overkill. Sure, it's possible,
but unlikely. It'd be difficult enough with a knife, let alone a
pen. I don't know if you've ever studied/practiced any fencing or
bladework, but once you're inside closing distance it's pure
anarchy. You are as likely to get ganked as the person you are
trying to gank.
And what was it the chief saw in the engine room?
My guess is some kind of fundamental structural damage to
Galactica.
Underzog|2.7.09 @ 9:35PM|#
Max Hats: I've noticed that too. Also: note that whenever he
accuses someone of antisemtism, he'll throw in some totally over
the top antisemetic language. Such as:
but when those Jews (descendants of apes and pigs?) fight
back
What the hell?
Totally crazy.
Max Hats! Before you make yourself a bigger fool than you already
are, see
3:58 - 4:12 of this movie.
It is so frustrating dealing with such ignorant people.
Also, I use Underzog as the Americans used Yankee Doodle. That was
supposed to be an insult, too. The Patriots made it into a joke and
so have I.
You guys say I'm a performance artist so we should have some
entertainment. My website is not devoted to politics, but whimsey
instead.
Elemenope|2.7.09 @ 9:39PM|#
Totally inconsistent with Gaeta's character. Yeah, great
effect, but it would be bad writing. Gaeta went out like Gaeta.
Made perfect sense to me.
The only thing that's ever stood out about Gaeta to me is that he
is totally unpredictable in highly stressful situations. And that
he likes being the number two guy but has no compunctions trying to
kill the number one guy if things go south (like he nearly did with
Baltar).
That, to me, stood out as overkill. Sure, it's possible, but
unlikely. It'd be difficult enough with a knife, let alone a pen. I
don't know if you've ever studied/practiced any fencing or
bladework, but once you're inside closing distance it's pure
anarchy. You are as likely to get ganked as the person you are
trying to gank.
Yeah, but it looked like he got a decisive first shot in (looked
like the pen hit the guard right in the jugular) and the rest of
the stabs were just to make sure he stayed down. I agree that close
combat does tend to devolve into anarchy, but I'd classify that
less as combat than as a stabbing of opportunity.
My guess is some kind of fundamental structural damage to
Galactica.
My s.o.'s theory is that he discovered some kind of damage caused
by the Cylons when they re-did the engines, as a
double-cross/insurance policy of some sort.
Elemenope|2.7.09 @ 9:43PM|#
I hasten to add that the Romo neck shot only had a chance of working because the guard was pretty badly distracted by Starbuck.
Elemenope|2.7.09 @ 9:49PM|#
Max Hats! Before you make yourself a bigger fool than you
already are, see 3:58 - 4:12 of this movie.
Yah, we'll definitely take Geert Wilder's word for it.
Idiot.
Underzog|2.7.09 @ 9:57PM|#
Antelope: Yah, we'll definitely take Geert Wilder's word for
it.
Idiot.
You guys are sick. You ignore reality. Are you saying that Gert
Wilders put that little Muslim girl up to calling Jews apes and
pigs? It sounds like a woman's voice speaking to the little girl --
not a man's voice such as Wilders.
As for you calling me loony? More Turnspeak
Propaganda garbage on your part.
Elemenope|2.7.09 @ 10:16PM|#
Tell you what, underzog. You produce the passage in the Qur'an that says that Jews are descended from apes and pigs, and I'll take back the part where I called you an idiot.
Kolohe|2.7.09 @ 10:29PM|#
And what was it the chief saw in the engine room?
A path to equalize the psi differential between the compartment in
which he was standing with the other side of the bulkhead.
Warty|2.7.09 @ 10:33PM|#
Fuck, Adama is a hardass. I'd have spared Gaeta.
He had no choice, after he told Gaeta on the bridge that there
would be no forgiveness for this. I don't think Adama wanted to
kill Gaeta.
I think the writers wasted a great opportunity to have Roslin
destroy a lot of shit in a rage, but they wrapped up the mutiny
story well enough. Now they have to deal with Brother Cavil, Ellen,
and they have to find some habitable planet. How many episodes are
left?
Underzog|2.7.09 @ 10:40PM|#
Antelope,
I already have the proof of what that little Muslim girl was
taught. As for the idea of Jews being Apes and pigs to the Muslims,
it developed out of these Quranic verses:
excerpts from the link
"Robert Spencer, let's begin with you.
This recent example of the Saudi school teaching that Jews and
Christians are apes and pigs is, of course, just a continuation of
a long tradition.
In terms of Jews in particular, why are they portrayed as apes and
pigs in the Arab Middle East? The Qur'an, for instance, calls Jews
apes and pigs several times.
Can you give us the theological background here?
Spencer: Jamie, the idea that Jews are apes and pigs is
rooted in three passages of the Qur'an: 2:63-66; 5:59-60; and
7:166. The first of those passages depicts Allah telling
the Jews who "profaned the Sabbath": "Be as apes despicable!" It
goes on to say that these accursed ones serve "as a warning example
for their time and for all times to come" (2:63-66). The
second has Allah directing Muhammad to remind the "People
of the Book" - a term that refers primarily to Jews and Christians
- about "those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those
of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who
worshipped evil" (5:59-60). The third essentially repeats
this, saying of the Sabbath-breaking Jews that when "in their
insolence they transgressed (all) prohibitions," Allah said
to them, "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."
These early Quranic verses have spread to cover all Jews (not just
non Sabbath observers) in QH Quranic and tradition amongst the
Muslims such as that three and a half year old girl in Gert
Wilders's film. She got it from somewhere in that movie and not
from some alleged movie coaching on the part of Gert Wilders.
Have you even seen the section of the movie I deliniated,
Antelope?
And where is Max Hat in all of this? He is the one who said I was
crazy for mentioning it -- even though it is a well known insult of
Muslims to Jews.
|2.7.09 @ 10:55PM|#
"I think the writers wasted a great opportunity to have
Roslin destroy a lot of shit in a rage, but they wrapped up the
mutiny story well enough. Now they have to deal with Brother Cavil,
Ellen, and they have to find some habitable planet. How many
episodes are left?"
Habitable planet? The tagline for the prequel series "Caprica" (the
pilot supposedly available on DVD in April) is: "The end of
humanity has a beginning." I take the phrase to mean that there
isn't a habitable planet in the [triad] cards.
|2.7.09 @ 10:58PM|#
LMNOP, Gaeta wants the pain. He wants to suffer. Trust me, I
know the feeling.
He had no choice, after he told Gaeta on the bridge that there
would be no forgiveness for this. I don't think Adama wanted to
kill Gaeta.
I would still have spared him, purely for honor. As he said, there
has been enough bloodshed. Killing people gets old.
Elemenope|2.7.09 @ 11:07PM|#
Underzog,
Living in the US, this is pretty hard to say with a straight face,
but that had to be close to the most ridiculous exegesis I have
ever read. That was beyond televangelist bad. That was in the "five
year old reading a Holy text" zone of bad.
Yes, I watched the video. All it was was some women off camera
asking questions to a five-year-old girl. It proves little, except
that one five-year-old girl was taught some silly ideas about Jews,
and that some Qur'anic verses were twisted in order to provide her
with an explanation for those silly ideas.
Elemenope|2.7.09 @ 11:09PM|#
LMNOP, Gaeta wants the pain. He wants to suffer. Trust me, I
know the feeling.
Yeah, I get that.
MAX HATS|2.7.09 @ 11:41PM|#
And where is Max Hat in all of this? He is the one who said I was crazy for mentioning it -- even though it is a well known insult of Muslims to Jews.
First of all, you trying to prove someone besides some five year
old girl has ever said it bellies the phrase being "well
known."
Second, it is a scientific fact that Jews, like all human beings,
are in fact descended from apes. But that is neither here nor
there.
Third, you are in fact clearly crazy. Have you ever been on brain
pills? Because if not, you should start. Crazy people with
incredibly strong opinions about Jews - one way or the other, those
stories never end well.
dhex|2.8.09 @ 12:35AM|#
i'm starting a metal band . all of our songs will go ISRAEL
ISRAEL ISRAEL SODOMITES ISRAEL ISRAEL ISRAEL DON'T BE A HOMO LIKE
ERNST ROHEM
i will call it "underzog".
Underzog|2.8.09 @ 4:45AM|#
Second, it is a scientific fact that Jews, like all human
beings, are in fact descended from apes. But that is neither here
nor there.
It is HERE AND THERE when Jews are regarded as descended from pigs
as the Arab savages to. And they mean it as an insult not in a
Darwinian sense.
You people are willfully ignorant and you hang around a site that
is spectacularly misnamed "Reason Magazine."
At least, I call things for what they are.
Underzog|2.8.09 @ 5:25AM|#
U N to probe Hamas's use of children as human shields
This is what your Hamas heroes do you Ernst Rhoem wannabees.
HEY! Maybe you guys can go to Gaza or other Arab places and
sodomize little Arab kids yourself. You'd kill two birds with one
Libertarian stone.
1. Prepare the kids psychologically for homicide bombing;
and,
2. Do the child molestation that the Libertarian party supports so
much in principle.
No wonder you fellows favor the Arabs over the Jews (snicker).
Underzog|2.8.09 @ 5:28AM|#
There are some good Libertarians though,
Neal Boortz slams Muslim tagiyya caller
As I've said before, those patriotic, non anti-Semitic Libertarians
should break of from what is now Libertarianism and form their own
movement.
BakedPenguin|2.8.09 @ 8:20AM|#
Neil Boortz is a libertarian now? Maybe you should just mention
Donderooooo.
The adventures of Underzog!
BakedPenguin|2.8.09 @ 8:54AM|#
And since this thread was supposed to be about the Middle East and heavy metal, let me get it back on track with S.O.D.
Elemenope|2.8.09 @ 8:56AM|#
There is so much anti-Semitism in the world to root out that
Underzog never sleeps! (Look at the time-stamps on his
comments).
I suppose he could be broadcasting from an underground bunker from
somewhere in Central Asia. Is that it? Do you have a secret fort in
Asia to hide you from the Rhoemites?
|2.8.09 @ 10:01AM|#
I find Underzog's mania to be fascinatingly boring. Now there's an oxymoron for you.
Taktix®|2.8.09 @ 10:12AM|#
I find Underzog's mania to be fascinatingly boring. Now
there's an oxymoron for you.
What happened to the incredibly derivative signature? That was
always the icing on the shitcake...
MNG|2.8.09 @ 10:30AM|#
"Wow, Metal bands totally ROCK!
RT
www.anonymity-tools.us.tc"
AHHH, DAMN YOU SPAMMER-GUY, DAMN YOU TO HELL!!!!!
I thought it was over with him...but it never ends...
MNG|2.8.09 @ 10:43AM|#
Holy shit Baked, the Superjoo comic is the funniest shit I've
seen in a long time. I'd always kind of seen Undyzog as something
like the Hebrew Hammer but nerdier
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0317640/
All hail the Urkobold!
Elemenope|2.8.09 @ 10:49AM|#
I thought it was over with him...but it never
ends...
He is certainly unworthy to use the name "James Woods".
MNG|2.8.09 @ 10:56AM|#
James Wood's name should indeed not be invoked in vain. Have you
seen him in Sergio Leone's epic gansta film, Once Upon a Time in
America?
Hell, he even rocks in my daughter's Hercules film.
Elemenope|2.8.09 @ 10:59AM|#
Have you seen him in Sergio Leone's epic gansta film, Once
Upon a Time in America?
Good flick.
James Woods|2.8.09 @ 11:38AM|#
Ooo, a piece of candy.
Ooo, a piece of candy.
Ooo, a piece of candy.
Ooo, a piece of candy.
Ooo, a piece of candy.
Elemenope|2.8.09 @ 11:42AM|#
Ooo, a piece of candy.
I just saw that episode of Family Guy last night.
Hilarious.
BakedPenguin|2.8.09 @ 11:58AM|#
MNG - thanks - but admit it, you just like the call out. I was
going to have him "unmask" you to reveal Yassir Arafat, but the
Photoshop work would have been too much.
Also, Woods was good in True Believer. Given Balko's
writings, it seems like a documentary now.
BakedPenguin|2.8.09 @ 12:03PM|#
I should probably say "unmasked in his dreams as Yassir Arafat", since: people who disagree with Israeli foreign policy != anti Semites.
MNG|2.8.09 @ 12:51PM|#
Well, we all know Yassir was smuggled out of the compound and his death was staged. He now resides with his pal Hitler in Argentina distributing anti-Semitism throughout the world and working on the second holocaust with Ken Roth. So it is plausible. Only Superjoo stands in their way...
MNG|2.8.09 @ 12:53PM|#
Oh, thanks for the True Believer reference. I just read the wiki and it looks good. Checked and my library has it, should run over and get it when they open up tomorrow.
|2.8.09 @ 12:53PM|#
"As I've said before, those patriotic, non anti-Semitic
Libertarians should break of from what is now Libertarianism and
form their own movement."
Yeah, one of the big problems with libertarians is that we're a
monolithic block--and we all agree on everything...
Actually, if two random libertarians find that they agree on
something, chances are it's because one of them misunderstood what
the other one was saying.
|2.8.09 @ 1:54PM|#
If we're talking about Middle Eastern metal bands (and it seems
as though we've forgotten for the moment), it doesn't get much
better than Israel's own Orphaned Land:
http://www.orphaned-land.com/
Anti-Semites, discuss.
zoltan|2.8.09 @ 2:31PM|#
I'm so happy MaxHats said this but I have to repeat it: all people, Jews and Arabs included, are descended from apes.
Mel Gibson|2.8.09 @ 2:34PM|#
"I'm really, really sorry about your big noses. I'm really sorry about how greedy you are. But most of all I'm really sorry about your dirty, underhanded, back-stabbing ways. Your number one dirty Jew fan, Mel Gibson."
|2.8.09 @ 2:44PM|#
zoltan|2.8.09 @ 3:04PM|#
So if this is indeed the weekend thread: here's an update on the Dymond Milburn case. Remember the 12-year-old girl who was beat up by three grown male, plainsclothes police officers. Her trial closes tomorrow--in which she has been accused of assaulting police officers.
Neu Mejican|2.8.09 @ 3:05PM|#
zoltan | February 8, 2009, 2:31pm | #
I'm so happy MaxHats said this but I have to repeat it: all people,
Jews and Arabs included, are descended from apes.
More technically. All humans ARE apes.
Even wikipedia level of expertise recognizes that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_ape
The Expatriate|2.8.09 @ 4:30PM|#
re: MNG
Yeah, because I never, ever post here about anything else that
riles me up, ever. It's just Israel 24 seven on my end.
I'm pretty sure that until they slaughtered a few hundred civilians
I had not posted about Israel in months. But I sure posted a lot
about other things. And all my anti-Semitic comments, well, there
are none. Up in the right hand corner there is a search mechanism,
so seek and find these comments.
Not that I've ever seen; however, I must admit I don't pay that
much attention to what you write, I usually see MNG in a comment
and skip to the next one.
Unless you think to criticize policies of the government of
Israel is the same as anti-Semitism. Which is kind of nutty, isn't
it?
I don't think you want to go there. Kaplan and Small of Yale
University recently published an article in the Journal of
Conflict Resolution (abstract here:
http://jcr.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/50/4/548), which shows
that "that anti-Israel sentiment consistently predicts the
probability that an individual is anti-Semitic, with the likelihood
of measured anti-Semitism increasing with the extent of anti-Israel
sentiment observed."
Now if you have your own statistical study that was published in a
peer-reviewed academic journal, which counters these claims, I'd be
happy to read it. Or are you just going to point out that a "Dr.
Kaplan" was involved and dismiss the study as Jüdische
Physik?
Elemenope|2.8.09 @ 4:31PM|#
Remember the 12-year-old girl who was beat up by three grown
male, plainsclothes police officers. Her trial closes tomorrow--in
which she has been accused of assaulting police
officers.
Everything else aside, the comments section below the article is
somewhat heartening. It looks like at least everyone can get behind
the "cops fuck up and should be punished when they do" ball when
it's a 12-year-old girl as a victim.
That's progress.
|2.8.09 @ 4:34PM|#
Dude,
Many questions need to be answered on BSG.
- What happened to Earth?
- What happened to Starbuck?
- Who designed the cylons in their current form?
- Who came up with the plans for the Cylons, and for the
humans?
Who gave the cylons their rules? Designed their resurection ships?
Programmed their behavior? Was able to make a new starbuck and her
ship?
Clearly their is some Cylon knowledge and ability not shown in the
Cylons we have seen.
kwais|2.8.09 @ 4:37PM|#
Also, my take is that underzog hates Israel and is masquerading
as a pro Israel dude, to defame that side.
No one is that dumb, nor that nuts.
Elemenope|2.8.09 @ 4:38PM|#
Expat --
It would be nice if we could see that study's definitions of
"extreme anti-Israeli sentiment" and "anti-Semitism". The abstract
takes a stab at the first, but not the second. Also, would need to
look at the methodology to find out whether they're on to something
or simply full of shit.
kwais|2.8.09 @ 4:44PM|#
If you think that Jews are just white people, no different from
the rest, and that Judaism is just another stupid religion, can you
be an anti semite?
It seems the term wouldn't fit.
SIV|2.8.09 @ 4:55PM|#
Many scientists, including anthropologists, use the term
hominid to mean humans and their direct and near-direct bipedal
ancestors.
You're not a moron on this one zoltan. Apparently, in taxonomy,
they've "dumbed the test down" to genetics.Where's my pitchfork and
torch?
Virgil|2.8.09 @ 4:56PM|#
It should also be pretty obvious that "anti-Israel sentiment consistently predicts the probability that an individual is anti-Semitic" is substantially different from "to criticize policies of the government of Israel is the same as anti-Semitism." It's the difference between significant correlation and one-to-one matching. it's not exactly a subtle difference, but it certainly is something that people like The Expatriate find it very convenient to obfuscate when they feel like smearing someone as an anti-Semite. And it's a pretty good indicator that someone like The Expatriate isn't really worth paying attention to.
The Expatriate|2.8.09 @ 5:03PM|#
re: Elemenope
I agree. Unfortunately, they want 20 bucks to access the PDF for
one day! The Uni I teach at carries the journal, but to access it
online via JSTOR you have to be at a computer located on campus, so
I can't answer your questions until Monday at least.
Neu Mejican|2.8.09 @ 5:05PM|#
SIV,
SIV | February 8, 2009, 4:55pm | #
Many scientists, including anthropologists, use the term hominid to
mean humans and their direct and near-direct bipedal
ancestors.
You're not a moron on this one zoltan. Apparently, in taxonomy,
they've "dumbed the test down" to genetics.Where's my pitchfork and
torch?
Are you trying to claim that humans are not apes?
Do you have a substantial basis for wanting the taxonomy to
distinguish between humans and other great apes...beyond the degree
that it already does at the appropriate level?
zoltan|2.8.09 @ 5:09PM|#
Yes, those mere "genes" are so inconsequential and
insignificant. I await your further enlightening comments.
And, LMNOP, did you read all those comments?!!? Half of them are
people saying she was a drug mule or prostitute or both and that
the cops had every right to "subdue" her physically if she was
fighting back. Because if she was a 12-year-old prostitute/drug
mule/both then she had no right to fight back against the police
and the police had every right to violently detain her.
Right Wing Realist|2.8.09 @ 5:11PM|#
Since we're discussing anti-semitism, I never realized that
"Asian" kids were so violent:
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NGQwZTA3MTM4ZTY4ZjczZjJmYjgwNjE2ZjlkZTMxYzc=
The Expatriate|2.8.09 @ 5:12PM|#
re: Virgil
Who said MNG was definitively an anti-Semite? As I don't possess
the ability to peer into someone's heart, at least via TCP/IP, I
doubt we could ever truly know his true feelings on the subject. I
was just cautioning him against persuing a certain line of
argument. Therefore, I kindly ask you to stop putting words in my
mouth.
By the way, you're not nearly as witty as you think you are.
SIV|2.8.09 @ 5:21PM|#
NM,
I was referring to this:
Until about 1960, the hominoids were usually divided into two
families: humans and their extinct relatives in Hominidae, the
other apes in Pongidae.
They were still teaching this when I took physical anthropology in
the early 80s
Virgil|2.8.09 @ 5:25PM|#
Bullshit, Expatriate. It's painfully obvious to anyone with
basic reading comprehension skills that the purpose of your
sentence "Or are you just going to point out that a "Dr. Kaplan"
was involved and dismiss the study as Jüdische Physik?" was to
strongly imply that MNG was an anti-Semite. Hiding behind
completely implausible claims that you don't "definitively...know
his true feelings" and you were "just cautioning him" only serves
to highlight your glaring intellectual dishonesty.
"By the way, you're not nearly as witty as you think you
are."
Thanks so much for your opinion; I certainly value it highly, as
it's clear from your posts that you're quite the purveyor of
wit.
By the way, the people who read your drivel here aren't nearly as
stupid as you think we are.
zoltan|2.8.09 @ 5:45PM|#
I like Virgil. Expatriate seems like a tool. No need to be smarmy over the internet. Unless it's really funny.
kwais|2.8.09 @ 5:52PM|#
DNG | February 8, 2009, 4:57pm | #
I usually see MNG in a comment and skip to the next one.
Likewise
MNG, Neu Mejican, Joe, and to some extent BDB are our resident
socialists.
They believe as do the majority of Americans on the role of
government.
And they express it well, and well reasoned.
Ignore to your own peril.
Elemenope|2.8.09 @ 6:51PM|#
And, LMNOP, did you read all those comments?!!? Half of them
are people saying she was a drug mule or prostitute or both and
that the cops had every right to "subdue" her physically if she was
fighting back. Because if she was a 12-year-old prostitute/drug
mule/both then she had no right to fight back against the police
and the police had every right to violently detain her.
I read the first twenty or so, and extrapolated. Some people are
dicks just to be dicks. I think you'd be hard pressed to find one
non-cop commenter in person who would be willing to assert any of
those things.
|2.8.09 @ 7:02PM|#
"I read the first twenty or so, and extrapolated. Some
people are dicks just to be dicks. I think you'd be hard pressed to
find one non-cop commenter in person who would be willing to assert
any of those things."
I hope you're right, but I don't know about that.
I think the "If you didn't want to be tazed, then you should have
done what you were told" sentiment is pretty common.
The Expatriate|2.8.09 @ 7:23PM|#
re: Virgil
Bullshit, Expatriate. It's painfully obvious to anyone with
basic reading comprehension skills that the purpose of your
sentence "Or are you just going to point out that a "Dr. Kaplan"
was involved and dismiss the study as Jüdische Physik?" was to
strongly imply that MNG was an anti-Semite. Hiding behind
completely implausible claims that you don't "definitively...know
his true feelings" and you were "just cautioning him" only serves
to highlight your glaring intellectual dishonesty.
It's painfully obvious to anyone with basic humor comprehension
skills that the purpose of my sentence was to yank MNG's chain.
Your inability to realize that only serve to highlight your glaring
(and undeserved) sense of moral self-righteousness.
So, good day to you, sir; I have no desire to continue responding
to your continuously unproductive correspondence.
re:kwais
They believe as do the majority of Americans on the role of
government.
Well, it's a good thing I'm an 'expatriate' then!
And they express it well, and well reasoned.
I respectfully disagree.
Taktix®|2.8.09 @ 7:30PM|#
I think you'd be hard pressed to find one non-cop commenter
in person who would be willing to assert any of those
things.
I'm just amazed they can get to a website on teh intertubez...
MNG|2.8.09 @ 7:33PM|#
Ex-pat
In trying to refute my assertion that one can easily be anti-Israel
(and I really don't know what "anti-Israel" means, if it means
"opposes a lot of things the Israeli government does then I am
that, but it could mean a lot, eh) you cited a single academic
study purporting to show a that anti-Israel sentiment predicts
anti-Semitism, and you DIDN'T EVEN READ THE ARTICLE in question? I
mean, you have no idea how the variables were conceptualized and
operationalized, what statistical analysis was engaged in and how
it was done, etc? And you skip over my comments? Uh, yeah...
"Not that I've ever seen"
Dude, I'd say my arguments about Israeli policy are greatly
outnumbered by my enthusiastic defenses of unions and animal
welfare alone. But you claim to not read most of my comments but
then accuse me of monomania in their content. Uh, yeah, again.
MNG|2.8.09 @ 7:40PM|#
kwais 2 4:52
Well said. It always amazes me that folks would not be inviting of
people like me, joe, BDB, etc. I mean, if not for us it strikes me
most threads would look like this:
"Man, our government does so many things it shouldn't do, and does
so much of it poorly!"
"Dude, I agree!"
"So do I!"
"I absolutely agree!"
"Likewise."
Etc.
"They believe as do the majority of Americans on the role of
government.
And while I can see how libertarians would see me as a socialist I
have to say, I do not believe in the abolition of private property;
I do not beleive that inequality can be eradicated nor would that
be a good thing (it would destroy incentive structures that benefit
mankind); and it would be hard to find a civil liberty topic where
any libertarian and myself would be in disagreement. I actually
post here because I susbscribe to and read Reason magazine...
Well, it's a good thing I'm an 'expatriate' then!"
One has to wonder what country could he possibly be in that has a
MORE libertarian mindset than the U.S.? I can totally see how a
libertarian would find a great deal of trouble with the U.S., but I
should think it's closer to libertopia than most other countries I
can think of.
Virgil|2.8.09 @ 7:56PM|#
Blah blah blah.... Whatever, Expatriate. You're a lying hack,
and what's worse you're not even a talented or interesting one,
unlike some of the other hacks that frequent H&R. (I mean, for
fuck's sake - you're called on a lie and the best you can come up
with is that you were just "yanking MNG's chain"? Really? Even the
incessant troll parodies are more entertaining and original than
that.) There never was any real prospect for productive
correspondence for that simple reason: you're a lying hack.
"So, good day to you, sir; I have no desire to continue...."
Yeah, if only the entire blog could be so lucky.
MNG|2.8.09 @ 8:02PM|#
Here is the complete study:
http://www.yale.edu/isps/seminars/antisemitism/2005-06/kaplan.pdf
A few comments. Like many studies, it's not perfect, but it it's
not a waste either. It strikes me as interesting. I note that the
data was collected via an Anti-Defamation League initiative, which
certainly makes me question it a bit (but that's no definitive
reason to shoot down its findings). Second, I note they give the
odds ratios but I cannot find their R squared, which is no
definitive concern but I can tell you that in some of the work I've
done we do that when the R squared is not very impressive. Third,
they admit the study is open to problems around issue of
non-response bias. Fourth, their Anti-Semitism measure (which seems
to be a scale, but I don't see an alpha given for its reliability)
is certainly open to charges of response set problems. Fifth, they
certainly need more variables to hold constant. Sixth, they seem to
find that European Muslims really skew the results here, and
interestingly they report that Jews in the survey had a higher
level of anti-Semitism than Christians surveyed (which by itself
makes me wary of their anti-Semitism measure). And lastly, in
regards to my particular case, I'm not European (this study had an
all European sample) but more importantly using their "anti-Israel"
scale I would score a 1 out of 4 (I don't think the IDF has a
policy of directly targeting civilians [I think they engage in
actions which are bound to harm many civilians and I deplore that,
but that is not the same as deliberately targeting], as I've
repeatedly said on H&R I don't think there is ANY justification
for Palestinian suicide bombers to target Israeli civilians [my
entire beef with Israeli policy is the harm to civilians they do],
and I don't think Israel is more responsible for "the past three
years of violence" meaning 2001-4 [the data collection for the
study was done in 2004]).
The Expatriate|2.8.09 @ 8:09PM|#
re: MNG
and you DIDN'T EVEN READ THE ARTICLE in question?
Who said I've never read the article? I said I can't answer
Elemenope's questions because I don't happen to have that
particular issue Journal of Conflict Resolution handy on
my bookshelf at home. Do you subscribe to academic journals and
have them sent to your home, MNG?
But you claim to not read most of my comments but then accuse
me of monomania in their content.
For crying out loud, get over yourself. This is not Underzog you're
dealing with here. Do you honestly believe that "Now, I'll be the
first person to agree with you that MNG and others of his ilk have
an obsession with Israel (aka. Blood Libel 2.0) that borders on
monomania." had anything other than a slightly flippant tone? Do
you have any pragmatic competence in English? (If you're not a
native speaker of English, then I apologize.) You do realize that
when analyzing an utterance for its meaning, you must take the
context of the utterance into account when determining the the
speaker's intentions, feelings and beliefs, don't you?
Nevertheless, the fact that the topic you chose when you
misinterpreted this thread as the "weekend open thread" and dragged
it down into the clusterfuck it has become through was events in
Israel and Sri Lanka doesn't speak well towards you not being
monomanic. However, as I've just brought up the importance of
pragmatic context, I'll refrain from making further
presuppositions.
Namo Buddhaye.
MNG|2.8.09 @ 8:23PM|#
Yeah Ex-Pat, when you alluded to my "obsession" about Israel as
"Blood Libel 2.0" and "bordering on monomania" I needed to
understand the "context" of those comments...You're full of shit on
that one, my monomanic obsession with Israel would be obvious to
those who read my many passionate posts on many other issues here
on H&R, but as you say you don't even read them most of the
time, so that's a foolish as well as slanderous comments, and the
"Blood Libel" comment, well, we all know what you were implying
there ("flippantly" for sure, but so what, people imply nasty
things about people in a "flippant" tone all the time, that makes
them no less nasty).
As to your latter point, interestingly one would think that it
would be hard to prove my "monomania" towards Israel by pointing to
a post in which I spent most of the time talking about...Sri
Lanka...Maybe my "monomanic" focus is not on Israel after all, but
on human rights in general?
MNG|2.8.09 @ 8:27PM|#
I mean, if were to say "Expatriate probably likes nooses and
flaming crosses" it would be flippant, but it would be a nasty
slander, one fairly equivalent to you implying that my "monomania"
is "Blood Libel 2.0" (Blood libel being the bigoted historically
recurrent charge that Jews sacrificed and ate Christian babies that
resulted in the killing of many Jews).
I think Virgil called you right upthread. You're full of
manure.
And for the rest of the thread, here's an interesting rejoinder to
the Small and Kaplan article:
http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/article.php?id=396#
Elemenope|2.8.09 @ 8:28PM|#
Expatriate --
Not to poke my nose in an entirely retarded argument or anything,
but sarcasm, flippancy, et al. is hazardous on teh
Internetz for precisely the reason that interpretive issues are
amplified. MNG has no knowledge of your attitude or intent when you
write what you write (nor, for that matter, anything else). Given
the context in which they were written (esp. since you were giving
them as a sort of cover for Underzog's insane rantings about MNG's
purported anti-Semitism), it is not at all clear what you meant by
them, and MNG's (and to a far lesser extent, Virgil's) reactions
were eminently justified.
MNG|2.8.09 @ 8:29PM|#
Kwais
How is that legal issue working out? I think I can confidently say
that we are all rooting for you. It's complete bullshit what they
pulled on you.
The Expatriate|2.8.09 @ 8:32PM|#
re: MNG 8:02pm
Nice to see that, like me, you have nothing better to do on a
Sunday night. Ha ha!
Thank you for finding the full-text of the article. However, I must
point out that the pdf is of the draft. I first encountered the
research when it was published a year later.
Third, they admit the study is open to problems around issue of
non-response bias.
Of course, any study of such a topic would suffer from the same
problem.
Fourth, their Anti-Semitism measure (which seems to be a scale,
but I don't see an alpha given for its reliability) is certainly
open to charges of response set problems. Fifth, they certainly
need more variables to hold constant.
When I go to work tomorrow, I can get the published article from
the library to see if they address this, if you'd like. However,
given the ephemeral nature of Internet discussion, I doubt anyone
would be interested in continuing.
and interestingly they report that Jews in the survey had a
higher level of anti-Semitism than Christians surveyed (which by
itself makes me wary of their anti-Semitism measure).
What, you've never heard of such concepts as internalized racism
and cultural cringe?
but more importantly using their "anti-Israel" scale I would
score a 1 out of 4 (I don't think the IDF has a policy of directly
targeting civilians [I think they engage in actions which are bound
to harm many civilians and I deplore that, but that is not the same
as deliberately targeting], as I've repeatedly said on H&R I
don't think there is ANY justification for Palestinian suicide
bombers to target Israeli civilians [my entire beef with Israeli
policy is the harm to civilians they do], and I don't think Israel
is more responsible for "the past three years of violence" meaning
2001-4
Duly noted. As I said, I'm not Underzog and I think we're having
two different arguments here. Where you grinded my gears is when
you brought this whole Israel thing into a thread that had nothing
to do with it. (And why did everyone forget about Sri Lanka? What,
we Buddhists don't count?)
|2.8.09 @ 8:34PM|#
About BSG (which is by far the most important topic on this
thread)
OK, leave some larger questions unanswered yes, but those that I
mentioned, it would be lazy not to answer.
Perhaps the show shouldn't answer how Saul Tigh could have possibly
been a Cylon. Or exactly how smart the metal Cylons are allowed to
be so that they can be smart enough to fight humans, but not to
rebel against skin jobs.
Elemenope|2.8.09 @ 8:39PM|#
Or exactly how smart the metal Cylons are allowed to be so
that they can be smart enough to fight humans, but not to rebel
against skin jobs.
Um, that one *was* answered. See the episode "Six of One".
|2.8.09 @ 8:41PM|#
How is that legal issue working out? I think I can
confidently say that we are all rooting for you. It's complete
bullshit what they pulled on you.
Thanks MNG,
I plead to "disorderly conduct". The lawyer said I could beat the
charge, that I was legally in the clear. But it would take time and
money.
The charge that I took is the equivalent of a traffic ticket.
I have mixed feelings about it, I could have fought it. I should
have fought it. But it was a felony, and no guarantee that justice
would prevail. (many instances on this website of it not
prevailing). I did not break the law, but I was out of my
element.
By taking the charge that I did, I forfeited the chance to sue the
police for wrongful arrest.
|2.8.09 @ 8:43PM|#
Um, that one *was* answered. See the episode "Six of
One".
It opened more questions than it answered IMO.
|2.8.09 @ 8:43PM|#
Perhaps the show shouldn't answer how Saul Tigh could have
possibly been a Cylon.
The Cylons disappeared 40 years ago, right? Tigh is older than
that. Whoops! Retcon time!
Seriously, dudes, stop expecting perfect continuity. Let it go.
It's very difficult to do on a serial. Star Trek has
failed miserably, for instance. Best move is to lighten up, lean
back, and enjoy the ride. Kind of like I did with your mom,
LMNOP.
Elemenope|2.8.09 @ 8:50PM|#
The Cylons disappeared 40 years ago, right? Tigh is older
than that. Whoops! Retcon time!
Nah. I thought it was pretty clear from
1. None of the seven knew what the five looked like
2. Knowing what we know about Earth, that it was populated by
cylons, perhaps for hundreds of years
...that the five are from a different batch altogether, probably
not even technically related to the seven.
The Expatriate|2.8.09 @ 8:50PM|#
re: MNG
Yeah Ex-Pat, when you alluded to my "obsession" about Israel as
"Blood Libel 2.0" and "bordering on monomania"
*sighs* Yep, it's all about YOU. And when I say "and others of his
ilk" that means YOU too. And because you're such a passionate,
serious person, it's imperative that every comment to you must be
sincere and solem, lest I risk a stentorian tongue-lashing by
Virgil and MNG.
I mean, if were to say "Expatriate probably likes nooses and
flaming crosses"
Bonus points for assuming I'm white. (I'm not.)
re: Elemenope
Given the context in which they were written (esp. since you
were giving them as a sort of cover for Underzog's insane rantings
about MNG's purported anti-Semitism),
I disagree with your characterization of my comments, but I
appreciate what you are trying to say. Therefore, I'll offer the
olive branch to MNG and "others of his ilk" and end this(But not
Virgil, he and his Aeneid can go fuck themselves.)
MNG|2.8.09 @ 8:55PM|#
Expat
I think that first comment of yours was out of line and your later
minimization of it a bit much, but you've got some very intelligent
things to say and you've been much more collegial, so I apologize
for my harsh response upthread.
A few brief comments before I have to go watch a film with the
family:
"Of course, any study of such a topic would suffer from the same
problem." I sort of agree, but here they did not even have any info
on how many refused to respond, and that's never a good thing. But
not always a fatal thing.
They give the anti-Semitism items in their index, there's not much
else they can say but to admit that a potential response set bias
exists, but again, one finds these kind of things in peer-reviewed
studies quite a bit. None of them are perfect and few are
worthless, and I'd say this one falls into that category.
"Nevertheless, the fact that the topic you chose when you
misinterpreted this thread as the "weekend open thread" and dragged
it down into the clusterfuck it has become through was events in
Israel and Sri Lanka doesn't speak well towards you not being
monomanic."
I apologized for this lat night at 7:40. H&r used to have a
thread every weekend that was understood to be open topic. That
went away when the election occurred. But people, and people other
than me, still use the last post on Friday for that. As I said, I
was more moved by the Sri Lanka thing, as I had read of the
hospital being hit several times that morning. But no one moved to
defend the Sri Lankan government, so no more posts. What can you
say?
Elemenope|2.8.09 @ 8:55PM|#
It opened more questions than it answered IMO.
How so? I thought from the dialogue that it was clear that they had
the potential to become fully aware, but are prevented normally by
having an implanted inhibitor. When they take the inhibitor out,
they stop obeying orders (such as when the centurion went aggro
when they unplugged the hybrid) and are capable of entertaining
abstract notions (such as when Baltar was "witnessing" to one of
them; it seemed to be listening intently). They also exhibit
preferences (choosing sides in the civil war by wasting the ones,
fours, and fives) and moral rectitude (they chose the side they did
because they were "unhappy" with the decision to lobotomize the
raiders).
MNG|2.8.09 @ 8:57PM|#
Epi
Before I go, massive props on looking up the TOS episode where they
ride each other like horses (Plato's Stepchildren.) Is there any
cultural thing you don't know?
The Expatriate|2.8.09 @ 9:06PM|#
re: MNG
Thank you for the apology and I would like to apologize if I
offended you.
But no one moved to defend the Sri Lankan government, so no
more posts. What can you say?
Well, there is no defense. The Sri Lakan government has used these
heavy-handed tactics against the Tamils for decades now.
zoltan|2.8.09 @ 9:14PM|#
I think the "If you didn't want to be tazed, then you should
have done what you were told" sentiment is pretty
common.
Or in the case of Oscar Grant, "If you didn't want to be shot and
killed while lying on the ground with a neck at the back of your
neck, then you should have done what you were told."
Also, come oooonnnnn, I already had to watch the entire series of
Deadwood (excellent, I might add) and now I have to watch a
FOUR-SEASON series of BSG just to keep up with you all?!?!!? How is
one to do all of this. Personally, I'm into the Office, Psych and
Boston Legal right now (though I try to ignore that latter's
annoyingly blatant and unapologetic liberalism).
Also, fuck that Virgil guy (the original one, not the current
commenter on H&R). Does anyone seriously 1) want their fabled
culture to be founded by a guy whose city got whomped by the
Greeks, 2) even think Rome could live up to that anyway.
zoltan|2.8.09 @ 9:21PM|#
I mean, if were to say "Expatriate probably likes nooses and
flaming crosses"
Bonus points for assuming I'm white. (I'm not.)
Shouldn't there be a word for this? I mean, we say someone has
"Godwinned" the thread if any one is compared to Hitler or if
Hitler is brought up (even though this is not what Godwin's Law
originally stood for). Shouldn't there be a word for the idea that
"As a Usenet H&R discussion grows longer, the
probability of a comparison involving white supremacists or one of
their leaders approaches one." Since Mike Godwin came up with it
and he got his name on it, I think this should be zoltan's law.
Neu Mejican|2.8.09 @ 9:26PM|#
Elemenope | February 8, 2009, 8:50pm | #
The Cylons disappeared 40 years ago, right? Tigh is older than
that. Whoops! Retcon time!
Nah. I thought it was pretty clear from
1. None of the seven knew what the five looked like
2. Knowing what we know about Earth, that it was populated by
cylons, perhaps for hundreds of years
...that the five are from a different batch altogether, probably
not even technically related to the seven.
I agree.
It seems to me the humans on earth developed skin-job cylons as
immortality machines, then their toasters rebelled and killed them.
Some number make it back to the colonies and blend in hundreds of
years ago. When the toasters in the colonies rebel, some of the
Earth cylons side with them and create the seven models. These
Earth cylons are the original programmers...the final five are
Earth cylons, but seem not to know their true nature...that needs
to be explained.
Or something along these lines.
|2.8.09 @ 9:41PM|#
Before I go, massive props on looking up the TOS episode
where they ride each other like horses (Plato's Stepchildren.) Is
there any cultural thing you don't know?
No. But thanks for the props. I didn't look it up, by the way.
That's one of my favorite episodes.
I think you dudes are way overthinking the BSG backstory. I don't
think they know. But have fun overthinking it.
|2.8.09 @ 10:17PM|#
It seems to me the humans on earth developed skin-job cylons as
immortality machines, then their toasters rebelled and killed them.
Some number make it back to the colonies and blend in hundreds of
years ago. When the toasters in the colonies rebel, some of the
Earth cylons side with them and create the seven models. These
Earth cylons are the original programmers...the final five are
Earth cylons, but seem not to know their true nature...that needs
to be explained.
Or something along these lines.
See, I was thinking that ALL the humans were skin jobs. Made by the
humans from earth a long time ago. That explains why boys and girls
have the same physical strength. And some other stuff.
They just don't know it.
The final five had a special purpose, and special programming.
Elemenope|2.8.09 @ 10:24PM|#
See, I was thinking that ALL the humans were skin jobs. Made
by the humans from earth a long time ago. That explains why boys
and girls have the same physical strength. And some other
stuff.
They just don't know it.
Only serious problem with that theory is that the Cylons (the
seven) were able to readily identify the Earth skeletons as Cylon,
rather than human. Which indicates that if you know what to look
for, there are easy distinguishing marks. If everyone were a Cylon,
they wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
Neu Mejican|2.9.09 @ 2:06AM|#
Which indicates that if you know what to look for, there are
easy distinguishing marks.
For instance, cylon spinal columns glow red during sex with enough
illumination to be seen through the skin.
I think "cylon tester" might not be such a bad job...
|2.9.09 @ 10:02AM|#
I think "cylon tester" might not be such a bad
job
Yeah, I would need to test all the Sharon models, all the #6
models, all the Xena models,
just to make sure there wasn't an original amongst them.
Tym|2.9.09 @ 10:03AM|#
>> Very True,
If you want 10 minute metal songs: Opeth is the king of the good
stuff.
Neu Mejican|2.9.09 @ 12:19PM|#
Kwais,
Given the glowing spine, it seems the colonies haven't figured out
the joys of doggie style, else they would have found the skin jobs
sooner.
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