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It's a Bong, Not a Bomb! We're Indian!
Yesterday at Reagan
National Airport, Atif Irfan, a tax attorney, and his brother
Kashif Irfan, an anesthesiologist, were forcibly
removed from an AirTran flight to Orlando, along with
their wives, children, and sister, plus a friend who happened to be
on the same plane and was seen talking to them. The Irfan brothers'
offense: discussing, on the way to their seats, which was the
safest part of the plane. A passenger who perceived the
conversation as threatening reported the Irfans to a flight
attendant, and soon the pilot was ordering their removal from the
flight, with the help of air marshals. Although FBI agents who
interviewed the Irfans at the airport quickly determined that they
posed no threat, the airline still refused to rebook them so
they could continue their interrupted vacation. Now they want an
apology, but AirTran seems to prefer a lawsuit. It claims it
"complied with all TSA, law enforcement and Homeland Security
directives and had no discretion in the matter." The TSA apparently
disagrees. CNN reports that an agency spokesman "said it was
the airline's decision to remove the family."
Would the decision have been the same if the Irfans and their friend had Anglo-Saxon names and fairer complexions? Would the suspicious passenger have been suspicious in the first place? The Irfans' friend, an attorney who works for the Library of Congress, thinks not. "I guess it's just a situation of guilt by association," he told CNN. "They see one Muslim talking to another Muslim, and they automatically assume something wrong is going on."
Update: As cunnivore notes, AirTran has now apologized to the ejected passengers, refunded their airfares, and promised to reimburse them for the cost of switching to other carriers. The airline's statement says:
We apologize to all of the passengers—to the nine who had to undergo extensive interviews from the authorities and to the 95 who ultimately made the flight. Nobody on Flight 175 reached their destination on time on New Year's Day, and we regret it.
Even so, AirTran is not prepared to say it made a mistake. A.P. reports that "the airline said the incident on the flight was a misunderstanding, but the steps taken were necessary."
|1.2.09 @ 4:23PM|#
Although FBI agents who interviewed the Irfans at the
airport quickly determined that they posed no threat, the airline
still refused to rebook them so they could continue their
interrupted vacation. Now they want an apology, but AirTran seems
to prefer a lawsuit.
Proof, yet again, that the retarded have taken over the business
world.
Apologies to the retards.
tarran|1.2.09 @ 4:37PM|#
Airtran kicking customers off of a flight?
Sounds consistent with my personal observations of how they treat
their customers.
Airtran, putting the F in Customer Service
Lester Hunt|1.2.09 @ 4:44PM|#
Wow. Next time I board a plane I will just keep my mouth shut. No talking at all sounds like the only safe course.
Fluffy|1.2.09 @ 4:44PM|#
Perhaps the best way to combat the absurd paranoia that has
taken over air travel security is to embrace it.
Simply report something as threatening on every flight.
After all, if every ape who refused a command was sent back for
reconditioning, Ape Control would grind to a standstill.
hotsauce|1.2.09 @ 4:47PM|#
What is the word "bong" doing in the headline?
Harold and Kumar Go To Gitmo reference.
|1.2.09 @ 4:48PM|#
Wow. Next time I board a plane I will just keep my mouth
shut. No talking at all sounds like the only safe
course.
Are you white? Because then it doesn't really matter. You don't
have to worry.
SIV|1.2.09 @ 4:49PM|#
What is Airtran?
They used to be ValueJet until that unfortunate incident when they
fed all those alligators in the Everglades.
My Airtran experiences have been fine.
Kolohe|1.2.09 @ 4:51PM|#
Airtran used to be called Valuejet, hub in Atlanta. I used to fly them frequently when I lived in Georgia. Their customer service was sub-par, but in the anti-lake wobegon that is the airline industry, so is everyone elses. The only thing that irked me is that some of the chief flight attendants think they are the second coming of Henry Youngman when they are on the intercom. And this was back in the early ought's, when it would seem wise that a airline famous for landing planes into swamps to avoid cracking jokes that 'we landed in the correct airport, this time'
thoreau|1.2.09 @ 4:52PM|#
In all fairness, the TSA said that these guys are safe to
fly.
Given the TSA's stupidity, I naturally assume that these guys
probably are in fact terrorists.
Josiah|1.2.09 @ 4:54PM|#
The one time I flew Airtran the plane was delayed because the cabin smelled of fuel. They were kind enough to bump me to business class. Free vodka is really nice when you're 20.
|1.2.09 @ 4:54PM|#
If the airlines and DHS were smart, they'd fear Saxon violence more than Harold and Kumar.
Emily Litela|1.2.09 @ 4:58PM|#
Mr Libertate, wouldn't some smooth jazz and classical music be just the perfect thing for our airports?
|1.2.09 @ 5:00PM|#
I mean, think about it. What's scarier, some Parsi dude talking
about Ahura Mazda and the sacred fire or the Technoviking?
Emily Litela,
Sounds like you're talking about Saxon violins.
|1.2.09 @ 5:04PM|#
Does the airline have a right to refuse them? Yes. Should they have acted in such a stupid way if they want to keep customers? Probably not. Does government policy help create, shape, and encourage these prejudices? 100%
|1.2.09 @ 5:18PM|#
"Would the decision have been the same if the Irfans and their
friend had Anglo-Saxon names and fairer complexions?"
Hmmm... Well, probably not.
But on the other hand, you have the ETA (Basque Separatists) and
the IRA, not to mention home-grown nut-jobs like Timothy McVeigh.
Not to mention the old Weather Underground types, the militia
types, white supremacists, and various other hate groups.
So I think it's safe to say that profiling isn't the answer and
neither is forcing everyone who wants to fly somewhere to strip.
Maybe we should just try the El-Al method?
Despite Episiarch's clearly mistaken belief that only non-white
people are forced to strip search or drink their own breast-milk
before they are allowed to board a plane, even my pregnant wife -
possibly the palest human this side of a Tim Burton movie - was
subject to having her abdomen poked at by an ignorant security
guard who apparently thought that being pregnant (or even fat)
meant you where trying to smuggle explosives.
(In his defense, the guy was probably right since my son turned out
to be the human equivalent of C-4... If C-4 had a relentlessly
sunny disposition.)
|1.2.09 @ 5:27PM|#
"A passenger pathetic, sniveling,
hysterical cretin, who deserves to be thrashed into insensibility
with a bamboo stick, who perceived the conversation as
threatening reported the Irfans to a flight attendant"
Sauce for the gander|1.2.09 @ 5:40PM|#
pathetic, sniveling, hysterical cretin, who deserves to be
thrashed into insensibility with a bamboo stick
For exercising his right to free expression?
nobody u no and a big fan of j|1.2.09 @ 5:45PM|#
if airlines were publically owned transportation we would no longer have these problems.
|1.2.09 @ 5:47PM|#
Free expression?
Crying "terrorist" in an airplane qualifies as free expression? If
Passenger X is such a weak-kneed paranoid twat, he should stay
home, under his bed, where he belongs.
cunnivore|1.2.09 @ 5:48PM|#
Does the airline have a right to refuse them? Yes. Should
they have acted in such a stupid way if they want to keep
customers? Probably not.
I'd have more sympathy for AirTran if they didn't immediately claim
that the TSA made them do this. Also I wonder if Denny's could
remove a black family from their restaurant because another
customer said they made vague comments that may indicate they were
planning on leaving without paying.
Some Guy|1.2.09 @ 5:49PM|#
Perhaps the best way to combat the absurd paranoia that has
taken over air travel security is to embrace it.
The person who reported them was obviously using it as a
distraction for some larger plot. Let's send them to Gitmo.
cunnivore|1.2.09 @ 5:54PM|#
According to
this updated article, AirTran has apologized and reimbursed
these people for the tickets they had to buy on another
airline.
I should say that I have some degree of sympathy for AirTran here,
as there are a lot of ignorant people in the world who would have
made the flight very difficult if they hadn't kicked the passengers
off. They were kind of stuck in a lose-lose-lose-lose situation,
but their pusilanimous response to the criticism was
pusilanimous.
nobody u no and a big fan of j|1.2.09 @ 6:08PM|#
adam, if so many rich people were not getting away without paying taxes nthe government could afford better airport security.
Technomist|1.2.09 @ 6:10PM|#
Thanks for reminding me just in time why I haven't had a holiday in the States for nearly a decade.
|1.2.09 @ 6:12PM|#
"Silentz, tax attorneys help people AVOID paying taxes. More
power to them!"
Except for the ones that help write up the tax code.
Seitz|1.2.09 @ 6:16PM|#
I should say that I have some degree of sympathy for AirTran
here, as there are a lot of ignorant people in the world who would
have made the flight very difficult if they hadn't kicked the
passengers off.
The rest of the passengers could have gotten off, or the dipshit
who whined about the scary looking brown people. That guy probably
had a non-refundable fare. If he chooses not to get on the plane,
and if a 100 people follow him up the jetway, too bad.
|1.2.09 @ 6:18PM|#
Technomist,
If you're in the UK, I seem to recall that you're shooting your
visiting tourists.
Jumbie|1.2.09 @ 6:29PM|#
One AirTran spkesman in some of the articles I read said
something along the lines of:
:They said things they shoudln't have said on an airplane."
To me that smacks of racism, because he's basically saying brown
people are obliged to make sure they don't say anything about the
plane, or about air travel, once they get on a plane.
Douglas Gray|1.2.09 @ 6:34PM|#
The AirTran people lack integrity. It is not out of bounds at
all to discuss with family members which is the safest part of the
plane. Their statement that "these people should say such things
are out of bounds", is wrong, and the Airlines behavior is a clear
violation of these passengers' rights of free speech.
This smacks of behavior in old time Communist Countries, where you
can turn someone in for "counter-revolutionary" behavior.
Sauce for the gander|1.2.09 @ 6:36PM|#
Crying "terrorist" in an airplane qualifies as free
expression? If Passenger X is such a weak-kneed paranoid twat, he
should stay home, under his bed, where he belongs.
Then what constitutes the threshold above which you would condone
voicing a concern? Or are you the only one who's allowed to voice a
concern about what others say?
cunnivore|1.2.09 @ 6:38PM|#
Douglas, AirTran is a private entity and as such need not respect any right to free speech. They do however have to honor contracts and comply with anti-discrimination laws.
cunnivore|1.2.09 @ 6:40PM|#
Sauce, would you refrain from criticizing a passenger who complains that another passenger is wearing a headscarf? If not, where do YOU draw the line? Speaking of sauce for the gander...
|1.2.09 @ 6:42PM|#
Maybe they smelled of curry, that's why the white racist(redundant I guess) passenger complained. Have your fun. We'll never forget.
Sauce for the gander|1.2.09 @ 7:03PM|#
Mr. vore, as a libertarian, I would place no restrictions on
complaints. But you took the question in the opposite direction
from the direction in which I took it, which of course you're free
to do, but that moves away from the concern the passenger
expressed, and that represents the concerns of many passengers,
concerns that you or I might not share.
If you overheard me speaking about planning (what you suspected or
strongly believed to be) a crime, are you obliged to remain silent?
Or would you remain silent just because you think it's the right
thing to do?
I asked P Brooks for the threshold above which he thinks an airline
passenger should escape violent punishment for voicing a concern.
That doesn't seem an unreasonable question; rather, it seems to be
the question at hand in the present case: balancing the right to be
left alone vs. the right to voice one's suspicions.
If I tell a cop that someone should be investigated, when should
the cop act on my concern and when should he disregard it?
Airplanes are bad places to be trapped. P Brooks seemed so sure he
knows where everyone should draw the line that he recommended
torturing a complainant who crosses it. I'd like to acquire his
confidence, so I asked where that line is drawn.
thoreau|1.2.09 @ 7:09PM|#
They sold him the ticket. If they didn't want to serve him, they
shouldn't have sold him the ticket. If they want to cancel the deal
they made with him, they should give him a refund and take
responsibility for the foreseeable consequences of their
actions.
And, of course, we have every right to criticize them for what they
did.
Reptillian Shape Shifter|1.2.09 @ 7:15PM|#
Who gives a fuck? What a petty, petty world these humans make.
tarran|1.2.09 @ 7:18PM|#
As far as the plane crash that caused Valujet to rebrand
themselves as Airtran, that crash was not really the airlines
fault.
If memory serves they were carrying cargo of O2 generators that
another company had certified had been rendered inert. In fact
several generators had not only not been rendered inert, but had
been put in a condition where the vibration of flight could trigger
them - which is exactly what happened on takeoff. The fire, fed by
oxygen produced by the burning generators melted the control wires.
The pilots were unable to control the aircraft which nosedived into
the ground.
Incidentally, this sort of thing has happened to other aircraft
companies like American Airlines. The FAA shut Valujet down for
maintenance problems that were unrelated to the accident.
Henny Youngman|1.2.09 @ 7:21PM|#
"Henry Youngman"
That's Henny, thank you:
Getting on a plane, I told the ticket lady, "Send one of my bags to
New York, send one to Los Angeles, and send one to Miami." She
said, "We can't do that!" I told her, "You did it last week!"
---------
My doctor grabbed me by the wallet and said, "Cough!"
Henny Youngman|1.2.09 @ 7:44PM|#
"I have terrible luck. Last week my chauffeur ran off without my
wife."
"I've been married for 34 years, and I'm still in love with the
same woman. If my wife ever finds out, she'll kill me."
"My best friend ran away with my wife, and let me tell you, I miss
him."
"I miss my wife's cooking - as often as I can."
"I was so ugly when I was born that the doctor slapped my
mother."
"I once wanted to become an atheist but I gave up. They have no
holidays."
"How to drive a guy crazy: send him a telegram and on the top put
'page 2.'"
"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."
"You can't buy love, but you can pay heavily for it."
"I'll tell you how to beat the gambling in Las Vegas. When you get
off the airplane, walk right into the propeller."
My dad was the town drunk. Usually that's not so bad, but New York
City?
Youngman Fan|1.2.09 @ 7:58PM|#
This is a list of the Henny Youngman jokes that comedian Alan
King repeated at Mr. Youngman's funeral...
You have a ready wit. Let m know when it is ready.
The more I think of you the less I think of you.
It's good to see you. It means you're not behind my back.
You're one of the main reasons for twin beds.
He's a real pain in the neck; of course, some people have a lower
opinion of him.
He's a real gentleman. He reminds me of Saint Paul, one of the
dullest towns in America.
Why do Jewish divorces cost so much? They're worth it.
Why do Jewish men die before their wives? They want to.
Why don't Jewish men drink? It interferes with their
suffering.
In New York's garment district a little old man was hit by a car.
While waiting for an ambulance, the policeman tucked a blanket
under the guys chin and asked, "Are you comfortable?" the man said,
"I make a nice living."
Camp Hiawatha, Camp Seneca - That's where Jewish kids go for the
summer. Camp Ginsberg is where the Indian kids go.
When my wife asked me to start a garden, the first thing I dug up
was an excuse.
My wife will buy anything marked down. She brought home two dresses
and an escalator.
I haven't talked to my wife in three days. I didn't want to
interrupt her.
I took my wife to a wife-swapping party. I had to throw in some
cash.
I miss my wife's cooking - as often as possible.
A woman wrapped herself in Saran Wrap to take off some weight. Her
husband comes home, sees her, and says, "Leftovers again."
Was that suit made to order? The guy who ordered it didn't pick it
up, huh?
That's a nice suit you're wearing. When did the clown die?
I like the suit you're wearing. Who shines it for you?
He's frank and ernest with women. In Fresno; he's Frank and in
Chicago; he's Ernest.
What do you get for a man who has everything? Penicillin.
A priest is sent to Alaska. A Bishop goes up to visit a year later.
the Bishop asks, "How do you like it up here?"
The priest says. "If it wasn't for my Rosary and two martinis a
day, I'd be lost. Would youl like a Martini Bishop?"
"Yes, I would", says the Bishop
The Priests says "Rosary, bring the bishop a Martini."
A man goes to a psychiatrist. The doctor says, "You're
crazy."
The man says, "I want a second opinion."
The doctor says, "OK, you're ugly too."
A guy says to a doctor, "I'm having trouble with my love life at
home." the doctor says, "Take off 20 pounds and run 10 miles a day
for two weeks."
Two weeks later the guy calls the doctor, "Doctor, I took of the 20
pounds and I have been running the 10 miles a day."
"Okay, so how is your love life now?"
"I don't know, I'm 140 miles from home!"
A man can't find a lawyer. He picks up the Yellow Pages and he sees
the firm of Schwartz, Schwartz, Schwartz & Schwartz. Calls them
up and says, "Is Mr. Schwartz in?"
"No he's out playing golf."
"Well, is Mr. Schwartz in?"
"No, he left the firm."
"Then let me talk to Mr. Schwartz."
"He is in Detroit and will not be back until next week."
Ok, how about Mr. Schwartz, then?"
"Speaking."
The convict was about to go to the electric chair. He called his
lawyer for advice. the lawyer says, "Don't sit down."
The food on the plane was fit for a king. "Here, King."
A panhandler says to me, "Mister, I haven't tasted food for a
week."
I said, "Don't worry, it still tastes the same."
My father was never home; He was always away drinking booze. He saw
a a sign saying, "Drink Canada Dry"; so he went up there.
My mother was 88 years old, she never used glasses. Drank right out
of the bottle.
Your presence makes me long for your absence.
Some people bring happiness wherever they go. You bring happiness
whenever you go.
I'd like to help you out. which way did you come in?
He willed his body to science. Science is contesting the will.
cunnivore|1.2.09 @ 8:20PM|#
Sauce, I wouldn't go so far as to say a passenger should be tortured for complaining about, well, anything, but I certainly would hold a low opinion of a person who complained to a flight attendant about the quotes mentioned in the article. The things the booted passengers say they said absolutely do not rise to the level of planning a crime, and no reasonable person would consider them to.
Abdul|1.2.09 @ 8:41PM|#
Looking at the bright side, it's been eight years since 9/11 and kicking a muslim dude off a plane is so infrequent that it makes headlines.
Ralph|1.2.09 @ 9:17PM|#
"Looking at the bright side, it's been eight years since 9/11
and kicking a muslim dude off a plane is so infrequent that it
makes headlines."
Finally, a reasoned perspective.
cunnivore|1.2.09 @ 10:00PM|#
Abdul, shouldn't the fact that it's been 8 years since 9/11 and no attacks have taken place make it less likely that Muslims would be summarily kicked off planes?
ron|1.2.09 @ 10:19PM|#
Why would a terrorist even discuss their plans in English to
begin with?
The person who complained should be humiliated in the worst
possible way. I'm a little disappointed too at Airtrans backhanded
apology.
The Bearded Hobbit|1.2.09 @ 10:39PM|#
It is a simple continuance of the fact that "We own you and we
can fuck with you whenever we want."
About every five years or so a story comes about like this and
reminds me that I'll never fucking fly again.
.. "ever" Hobbit
|1.3.09 @ 12:03AM|#
I don't get it: why would terrorists be discussing the safest place to sit on a plane? I mean what could they conceivably do that it would make a difference where they sit: "Now don't forget, we're flying this baby into the Sears Tower, so sit in a safe place..."
|1.3.09 @ 1:45AM|#
Jim/ron - none of this makes any sense when you think about it logically. But I wonder if Muslim-looking passengers said *nothing,* would a paranoid passenger say they're acting suspicious - suspiciously silent? I think this is nothing more than racial profiling..
Sauce for the gander|1.3.09 @ 4:24AM|#
Mr. vore, many are grateful that at least you, if not P Brooks,
would permit freedom of expression without the consequence of being
"thrashed into insensibility with a bamboo stick."
On an airplane you overhear one man - of any race - whispering to
two others about how much more easily the wing will break off than
the tail "...after the plane hits the ground." Why was he
whispering? Maybe laryngitis, or in order not to shock bystanders
overhearing his discussion of the veterinary surgery or
Thanksgiving meal he's planning for later in the day.
The nervous conversation that includes the question "Are you sure
you have enough bullets?" is, of course, about a PowerPoint
presentation.
I'm sure you can think of others.
What I'm missing from the tone of those who in hindsight
confidently disapprove complaints that turn out to be unfounded is
something more useful than the 1964 Potter Stewart test for
obscenity ("I know it when I see it").
Maybe you guys are really good at mentally supplying missing
context and nuance, and so everyone else has to be as good at it as
you are.
|1.3.09 @ 7:54AM|#
LOL, TSA is the biggest joke of an agency in the entire world.
The TSA is full of and run by complete and utter MORONS.
Jess
www.privacy-tools.at.tc
nobody u no and a big fan of j|1.3.09 @ 7:58AM|#
privacy troll, all that will change when the right people come to power.
|1.3.09 @ 8:10AM|#
Don't accept the apology. Sue them for damages for public humiliation and emotional pain all your family had to suffer.
VM|1.3.09 @ 10:06AM|#
Ron, Ron Ron...
of COURSE they have to discuss it in English. Preferably with an
"Arabic" accent. So it sounds more sinister to the 24 crowd.
Just like all Germans sound like Col Klink or Frenchmen sound like
Marcel Marceau...
How else can they build up the drama?
for all the legal eagles hier: if the airline were to say they made
a mistake, would it make the lawsuit against them bigger? Is there
a legal reason for not admitting a mistake?
Fluffy|1.3.09 @ 10:14AM|#
I think focusing on the passenger who complained is putting the
onus in the wrong place.
The problem isn't that there are passengers out there with a low
threshold for fear. There are millions of air travelers and at
least some of them will inevitably occupy the hysterical part of
the fear curve.
The problem is that our system of airline security now empowers
those hysterics to impose their neurosis on everyone else. And it
also empowers low level airline staff to abuse passengers with so
much impunity that they don't even have to listen to
complaints.
To me, the most outrageous part of the incident is the part where
AirTran had the police drag the family off because they were
"irate".
Airline staff should not be entitled to declare themselves an
aristocratic class who can set the police on any passenger who
complains about being abused by the airline. It's a customer
service job and it should not have any privilege above and beyond
any other customer service job in the world.
|1.3.09 @ 10:15AM|#
I liked the story from the National Review writer who freaked out because the Syrian musicians brought McDonalds onto the plane better.
|1.3.09 @ 10:16AM|#
Please please please please please for God's sake, somebody pay
attention to me!
It's lonely here, and I'm afraid of women.
BakedPenguin|1.3.09 @ 10:18AM|#
Frenchmen sound like Marcel Marceau...
Moose, do you mean Jacques Cousteau? Because saying all Frenchmen
sound like Marceau is like saying all Americans sound like
Teller.
VM|1.3.09 @ 10:22AM|#
Baked - tee hee. was deliberate. I like how he had the only line
in "Silent Movie".
On Discovery Europe, whenever they did magic shows, Teller would
talk up a storm. Very interesting person.
joe - indeed!
The Wine Commonsewer|1.3.09 @ 10:31AM|#
Are you white? Because then it doesn't really matter. You
don't have to worry.
Unless your over seventy and using a walker.
BakedPenguin|1.3.09 @ 10:32AM|#
Moose - That's the bad thing about being 24" tall - a lot of
stuff goes over your head.
I think the Simpsons had Teller talking - only time I've heard
him.
GILMORE|1.3.09 @ 10:33AM|#
Technomist | January 2, 2009, 6:10pm | #
Thanks for reminding me just in time why I haven't had a holiday in
the States for nearly a decade.
Thanks for not stinking up our country with superior sneering and
total lack of taste for the last decade you dumb fucking limey
twat. Thank you for sending your pissing, boorish, loudmouthed
vacationing chavs to places like Romania and Lithuania rather than
new york or LA.
Sorry, I mean this in the best way possible. :) Cheers
The Wine Commonsewer|1.3.09 @ 10:36AM|#
Aren;t the airplane laws something like the ship laws? IOW, the captain is God and has full authority to do whatever he wants to?
VM|1.3.09 @ 10:44AM|#
Baked - or the joke was poorly delivered...
/kicks pebble. misses. falls on keester. swears and throws book at
cat*, **
*no felines were harmed in executing.
** In fact, we don't have a cat.
The Wine Commonsewer|1.3.09 @ 10:46AM|#
Well, Gilmore, that's all well and good but wasn't it rioting British tourists that shut down Las Vegas for the first time?
|1.3.09 @ 10:49AM|#
I think focusing on the passenger who complained is putting
the onus in the wrong place.
I agree Fluffy, especially because all we know about the
passenger's complaint, as far as I can tell, is that AirTran claims
that a passenger made a complaint. That report deserves as much
credibility as AirTran's claim that it "complied with all TSA,
law enforcement and Homeland Security directives and had no
discretion in the matter."
The Wine Commonsewer|1.3.09 @ 10:50AM|#
To me that smacks of racism, because he's basically saying
brown people are obliged to make sure they don't say anything about
the plane, or about air travel, once they get on a
plane.
I'd say that just about goes for everybody. Every time we go to an
airport Mrs TWC tells me I better keep my mouth shut.
However, I'll grant you that if your name is Mohammad and your last
name isn't Ali, you're going to be under a little more scrutiny
than I am.
[nod to Jay Leno]
The Wine Commonsewer|1.3.09 @ 10:53AM|#
The focus is entirely in the wrong place. It's like being pissed
off at the bank for screwing with you over currency transactions or
tax id numbers or bullshit paperwork. It isn't the bank, per se, it
is the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT and the bank, or the airline, is more
afraid of getting screwed over by the feds than they are afraid of
their customers being angry.
Not sticking up for AirTran, until today, I had never heard of them
and it sounds like they are assholes. But they are assholes because
TSA exists.
|1.3.09 @ 10:55AM|#
TSA had nothing to do with this.
TSA didn't take the complaint. TSA let the Muslim passengers
through security.
|1.3.09 @ 11:00AM|#
Is air travel an area in which we are more or less free than 10,
20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago? How about the air travel experience?
Better or worse?
Although I generally agree that the good ole days were not
necessarily always so good on the freedom scale, I can only laugh
at the Reason scribes who categorically assert that we are more
free today than 10 years ago or 20 years ago, etc.
|1.3.09 @ 11:05AM|#
The Wine Commonsewer-
Pre 9/11, I both experienced and observed others endure horrible
customer service from Air-Tran.
|1.3.09 @ 11:08AM|#
Somebody brought up El Al, the Israeli airline.
El Al certainly does profile the crap out of Muslims and Arabs.
Extra screening, extra questions, the whole deal.
But they don't throw people who've been cleared off of planes for
talking about the safest part of the plane to be in if there's a
crash, or when a fat guy asks for a seatbelt extension.
Velcome to El Al; take a piece|1.3.09 @ 11:50AM|#
or when a fat guy asks for a seatbelt extension
You know this how, Boychick? ;-)
|1.3.09 @ 11:50AM|#
The problem isn't that there are passengers out there with a
low threshold for fear.
That's true. Fanning the flames of fear for political gain is the
root cause of the problem.
But is "that brown man is scary" really a free speech issue? What
an absurd proposition.
Why didn't the waitresses tell the complainer he might be more
comfortable on a different flight? He (or she) was the one causing
a disturbance, and preventing the flight from leaving on time.
Sauce for the gander|1.3.09 @ 11:56AM|#
But is "that brown man is scary" really a free speech issue?
What an absurd proposition.
Why is it absurd?
cunnivore|1.3.09 @ 12:02PM|#
To me, the most outrageous part of the incident is the part
where AirTran had the police drag the family off because they were
"irate".
That was a different passenger, not a member of the family. Read
the article again...it says "an irate passenger" was escorted to
the detention area, while the family was questioned in the jetway.
Though I'd be curious to find out what exactly the detained
passenger was irate about. Was it the treatment of the Muslim
family, was it the fact that they were delaying the flight over
this, etc.
As for who deserves the blame, there's plenty to go around. The
hysterical passenger who complained is deemed to be a dickwad. The
folks who made the decision to remove the family from the aircraft
are also dickwads, though I can understand not wanting to deal with
said hysterical passenger through the entire flight. Finally the
people who refused to let them board a different plane are dickwads
of the highest order.
|1.3.09 @ 12:06PM|#
Why is it absurd?
Because we are just as free to criticize his speech as he is to
engage in it.
Just as you are free to criticize us for criticizing his
speech.
Just as I am free to criticize you..blah blah blah.
|1.3.09 @ 12:08PM|#
The most stringent protection of free speech would not
protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a
panic.
-Oliver Wendell Holmes
cunnivore|1.3.09 @ 12:10PM|#
What I'm missing from the tone of those who in hindsight
confidently disapprove complaints that turn out to be unfounded is
something more useful than the 1964 Potter Stewart test for
obscenity ("I know it when I see it").
The presence of gray areas does not make the black less black nor
the white less white. No reasonable person could construe the
family's comments to be threatening in the slightest. You bring up
a couple of cases where I could see reasonable people disagreeing,
but that's not true here.
No, I don't have some ready made bright red line somewhere between
"Oh my god, that woman in a headscarf is whispering in Arabic" and
"Oh my god, that guy has a Glock stuffed in his sweatpants". But I
trust you agree that one of these complaints is hysterical and the
other is not.
cunnivore|1.3.09 @ 12:13PM|#
AirTran is a private entity and thus not bound by the First Amendment. If they want to kick me off the flight because I'm wearing a Bob Barr T-shirt, they're perfectly free to do so (as long as this does not violate our ticket agreement)
|1.3.09 @ 12:18PM|#
What we need is a new, improved, passenger informatin
recital.
At check-in, each passenger should receive this advisory: "Aircraft
are a public mode of travel, and as such, may have people different
from, or intimidating to, some individuals; if this makes you
uncomfortable, or fearful, it might be wise to take a different
mode of transport."
|1.3.09 @ 12:38PM|#
"Air Tran is a privat entity and thus not bound by the first
amendment."
Is it really a private entity? Did it not turn to the state to
assist it in imposing its will upon the family? In my book, that is
what you call state action.
Richard Stanczak|1.3.09 @ 12:40PM|#
I am a Canadian who lives less than two kilometers from the US.
I have driven through the US four times in the last eight years
[twice to drop off and then pick up my daughter from the Detroit
airport and twice to go back and forth from Lake Superior
Provincial Park]. My experiences with the US border guards have not
been pleasant. On one occasion, in August, with the temperature
over 30 degrees C, the border guard was wearing a gun glove. He
looked like a twenty year old [a kid from my perspective] who
seemed to enjoy his position of 'power'.
This national paranoia that has gripped the US shows no signs of
lessening. In a way it is difficult to blame the general population
when their government actively encourages this cowardly and idiotic
behavior.
When will the adults take over?
cunnivore|1.3.09 @ 12:46PM|#
Libertymike, if I tell a guest to leave my house because he speaks ill of cunnilingus, and he refuses, I have the right to call the police for assistance in removing a trespasser, correct?
cunnivore|1.3.09 @ 12:48PM|#
I also note that you decapitalized the "First Amendment" in your quote of me. Freudian slip?
|1.3.09 @ 12:53PM|#
I've flown AIR TRAN and unless, your upgrading to the front of
the Plane, (only large seats), or the stewardest has changed your
seat, or you sit, or sat in the wrong place, (I've done this), why
would you be walking and discussing saftey, on a plane about to
embark, too some people flying is a very heighten experience and
could easly be concerned.
What with all the hyper sensitivety, of travel today, I garantee,
if any one is talking about saftey, no matter their color or age or
gender, I'd be concerned. Come on, nine people talking about
saftey, would be suspect.
And unless you're a Official Saftey Inspector, please... you've got
to be kidding me, they knew exactly what they were doing.
cunnivore|1.3.09 @ 1:00PM|#
I don't think all nine of them were talking about safety. Also
keep in mind that three of the nine were under the age of 10.
I don't know about AirTran, but on some airlines you don't have a
set seat to sit in.
|1.3.09 @ 1:07PM|#
cunnivore-
No intenitonal lower case treatment of the First Amendment. I
suppose that still leaves room for a freudian slip
explanation-
As for your guest who speaks ill of cunnilingus, some
observations:
1. cunnivore's home is not Air Tran. You have not held yourself out
as an outfit that, for a fee, will take folks from point A to point
B.
2. cunnivore, by inviting a guest to your home, you are not thereby
doing business with the state, i.e., collecting taxes/fees in
behalf of the state, implementing state policy as to anti-terror
propaganda, racial profiling, impairing upon the rights of
association and travel, interfering with the efficient movement of
commerce, wilfully aiding and abetting the nanny-state's non-sense
of requring seatbelts, prohibiting water one day and permitting it
the next, etc.
3. you, presumably, have not been the beneficiary of a coerced
wealth transfer like the airlines have been.
4. I just don't buy that the airlines have a "right" to keep any
prospective passenger off of a flight just because the passenger is
wearing a Bob Barr t-shirt or any other item of clothing that the
airline does not like. The passenger's right to travel trumps
whatever right the airline has to forbid passengers wearing
habadashery offensive to its rent seeking management.
|1.3.09 @ 1:10PM|#
I don't know if there is a transcript available of the
conversation, but don't forget: a few days ago, a plane went off
the runway on takeoff from Denver. And broke in half, and caught
fire.
Some people (even teh MOOOZLIMZ!!) might have a heightened
awareness of, or interest in, aircraft structural integrity and
safety procedures.
|1.3.09 @ 1:12PM|#
cunnivore-
Your guest, upon failing to accord props to the joys of
cunnilingus, became a trespasser. IMO, the guy wearing the Barr
t-shirt is not.
Sauce for the gander|1.3.09 @ 1:12PM|#
Thank you again, P Brooks, for not thrashing me into
insensibility with a bamboo stick.
Mr. vore, how do you feel about certain jokes, namely those that
would alarm listeners who don't realize that they're jokes, being
prohibited at airports and on aircraft? Okay if the (barely)
private company does the banning?
Sauce for the gander|1.3.09 @ 1:15PM|#
cunnivore's home is not Air Tran. You have not held yourself
out as an outfit that, for a fee, will take folks from point A to
point B.
With a name like that, the hell he's not. Though the fee may
consist entirely in compliance.
|1.3.09 @ 1:20PM|#
If the muslim family had already passed security inspection then they have every right to continue their journey as rightfully as the other passengers. If anyone still feels threatened then it is they who should remove themselves and take another flight.
cunnivore|1.3.09 @ 1:33PM|#
With a name like that, the hell he's not.
For some reason, the passengers enjoy the takeoff more than the
landing. And we still serve peanuts in-flight...
Sauce for the gander (how appr|1.3.09 @ 1:43PM|#
For some reason, the passengers enjoy the takeoff more than
the landing.
= Something else you don't want to be overheard saying at the
airport. Of course, cognoscenti are hep to "takeoff" meaning spoof,
and landing, well, the spoof must be one of many about
Chappaquiddick.
cunnivore|1.3.09 @ 1:49PM|#
Your guest, upon failing to accord props to the joys of
cunnilingus, became a trespasser. IMO, the guy wearing the Barr
t-shirt is not.
Of course he is. A person who refuses to leave private property
when instructed to do so by the owner or owner's agent is
trespassing (unless there is some contractual obligation on the
part of the owner).
|1.3.09 @ 2:36PM|#
cunnivore-
Your guest is not on the same footing as the passengers who are
wearing Barr t-shirts. The passengers have PAID the airline to get
them from point A to point B-they did not bargain away their
inalienable right to dress as they see fit. It is not a question of
trespass-the passengers have a right to be on the plane as they
have paid for that right. That right is not subject to the
airline's idiosyncratic demands that they refrain from wearing a
Barr t-shirt.
Again, we are talking about an entity that it is really not
private. It has accepted subsidies-that there is the deaht kiss.
Second, it is in a joint venture with the state. It collects taxes
and fees in behalf of the state. Third, it assists and augments the
state's propaganda efforts.
I think that you are not addressing the differences between your
home and Air Tran-particularly the rent seeking component.
Sure, I will admit that personally, I just detest rent seeking
multinational entities crying for uncle's help.
VM|1.3.09 @ 2:41PM|#
And unless you're a Official Saftey Inspector, please... you've got to be kidding me, they knew exactly what they were doing.
am I reading this correctly?
if so: FALLS OFF CHAIR LAUGHING. PITIES AUTHOR
if not: whoops! sorry!
nobody u no and a big fan of j|1.3.09 @ 4:12PM|#
if there was not this irrational american fear of brown people then this would not be happening. in spite of the bush regime the government people acted well and will only do better under president obama.
Eddy|1.3.09 @ 4:30PM|#
I just wonder why the person who made the original complaint wasn't also removed from the plane. I would think "the officials" would want a witness or take a statement or check his credentials at least. I mean if there is no repercussion I think the next time I get on a plane and see a politician I'll be first to complain that I overheard the pol say, "with this perfect disguise these ignorant sheep shall all regret this day and those who do not follow shall pay very greatly."
Paul|1.3.09 @ 4:47PM|#
Would the decision have been the same if the Irfans and their friend had Anglo-Saxon names and fairer complexions.
The answer is, as always, treat everyone like criminals
and that will settle any questions about racism.
nobody u no and a big fan of j|1.3.09 @ 5:03PM|#
if you advocate jailing the criminal bush/cheney regime, then i might believe you
|1.3.09 @ 5:07PM|#
Paul | January 3, 2009, 4:47pm | #
The answer is, as always, treat everyone like criminals and that will settle any questions about racism.
At last, a response based on an actual concept anchored in the
history and myths of this country "... all men (and nowadays please
include women) are created equal."
|1.3.09 @ 5:25PM|#
nobody u no and a big fan of joe p boyle | January 3, 2009, 5:03pm | #
if you advocate jailing the criminal bush/cheney regime, then i might believe you
Is there a an equivalent to Godwin's Law that
covers Bush/Cheney, or Bush/Rumsfeld, or just plain ol' George W.
Bush (also known as Dubya)?
If not I claim it as KD's Law!
KD|1.3.09 @ 6:31PM|#
nobody u no and a big fan of joe p boyle | January 3, 2009, 5:39pm | #
i prefer joez law
|1.3.09 @ 6:44PM|#
I forgot to actually respond at 6:31.. d'oh... here's my
response to nobody @5:39
Don't matter what you prefer, I claim it. joe might use it more,
but there's no evidence he claimed it before me.. It's mine I tells
ya, it's mine!
Kip Hawley|1.3.09 @ 6:49PM|#
Mister Scroggins, I like the cut of your jib.
We always have room for individuals with your keen understanding of
transporatation security issues.
Call me.
|1.3.09 @ 8:46PM|#
I feel cheated. My wife and I flew American from LAX to Las
Vegas a couple of days after the London Underground bombings. I
noticed a lone guy acting weird who was waiting for our flight. (He
wasn't swarthy, but he had dark hair. We picked up on what we call
"behavioral cues.") When we boarded, I pointed him out to the lead
flight attendant, who told the captain, and then I kept an eye on
him from a few rows behind him. During the flight, the attendant
let me know that he had connected from London.
When we landed, did the FBI meet us? TSA? The Girl Scouts?
Negative. But then, he didn't try to light his shoe, so there's
that.
|1.4.09 @ 12:37AM|#
"He wasn't swarthy..."
OK, let's compare like with like here. You overreacted. Your
situation was in no way comparable to a situation involving a bunch
of self-avowed Muslims. Hate to say it, but swarthy matters here
people.
|1.4.09 @ 12:52AM|#
yes...they did act too quickly...they should have waited until they were at 30,000 feet before they threw the stone age cultists out!
|1.4.09 @ 12:53AM|#
the koran is like a mechanical "chokepear"*.
once you swallow it, you're stuck with it.
Robbers in the Renaissance era used a vicious little number to
induce their victims to cough up 'ransom' money. A pear-sized,
key-opening torture tool, that had spikes which came out when a key
was turned, changing the smooth metal 'pear' into a little
'mace'-like object. The extortionists would grab a well-to-do
'customer' off the street, stuff the device into his mouth and
'open' the spikes with a turn of the key. The sufferer would then
have to 'buy' back the key in order to 'close'/withdraw the spikes
into the 'chokepear', -or starve to death.]
|1.4.09 @ 1:23AM|#
Hmm. Haven't I read some articles here criticizing the TSA for fucking with little old white ladies? Because.. obviously little old white ladies are innocent....
|1.4.09 @ 2:03AM|#
"Christopher Hitchens, is that you?"
oh Hi...Barney Frank!...how are ya...?you big fat slobbering cock
munching liberal!
|1.4.09 @ 4:58PM|#
Hey, guyz, joe thinks Bush and Cheney are bad! He wants them in
jail!
Hello?
Oh, and uh, the way these people were treated indicates that
minorities are treated with unwarranted suspicion. Isn't that
crazy?
Do any of you know why my cat won't let me hug her?
Bulucanagria|1.4.09 @ 10:04PM|#
In the era between the Oklahoma city bombing and 9/11, I wonder if I, a short-haired white male, would have been refused the right to rent a Ryder truck if I inadvertantly mentioned the words fertilizer or diesel in the rental office?
B|1.5.09 @ 5:51PM|#
"Would the decision have been the same if the Irfans and their
friend had Anglo-Saxon names and fairer complexions? Would the
suspicious passenger have been suspicious in the first
place?"
This is the stupidest question I have ever read in my entire
lifetime. Racial profiling is logical and necessary in some
circumstances. Just ask the Israelis about how they run El
Al.
Get back to me when they unearth evidence that the 9/11 hijackers
were from Ireland or Sweden.
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