Reason Magazine
- reason.com
- reason.tv
- reason.org
- Donate
- Site Search:
Reason on Facebook
Reason on Twitter
Reason on YouTube
Reason RSSGet Reason E-mail Updates!
Manage your Reason e-mail list subscriptionsadvertisements
Big Apple Tax Bite
Growing up, there was a policy in the Mangu-Ward
household known as the "tax bite." When mom or dad—mostly
dad—helped a kid open a package or bottle, they'd take a cut. A
single potato chip, a sip of Coke, a bite of ice cream—each
vanished as part of the brutal "tax bite" regime. This is probably
why I became a libertarian.
This week, New York is discussing instituting its own tax bite:
Gov. Paterson, as part of a $121 billion budget to be unveiled Tuesday, will propose an "obesity tax" of about 15% on nondiet drinks.
This means a Diet Coke might sell for a $1 - even as the same size bottle of its calorie-rich alter ego would go for $1.15.
People. How many time must we go over this? Soda doesn't make you fat. Calories make you fat. Yes, soda contains calories. But so do all other foods. The fine folks at Coca-Cola are powerful indeed, but they are not single-handedly making Americans chunky, and it's absurd to pretend that they're somehow more culpable than the makers of all-natural peanut butter, or high-end truffles. Or, you know, hot dogs.
|12.15.08 @ 11:36AM|#
Ugh. Artifically making a product that will make me sick (diet
soda with NutraSweet; aspartame gives me migraines) cheaper than
one that doesn't (regular soda)...
...if I were in NY after that passed, I'm sure there'd be more than
a couple of occasions where I'd risk sickness to avoid being
taxed.
But why should I have to?
EJM|12.15.08 @ 11:38AM|#
...the makers of all-natural peanut butter, or high-end
truffles. Or, you know, hot dogs.
Please don't give the New York state government any ideas for its
next targets.
nebby|12.15.08 @ 11:41AM|#
I guess it really comes down to whether you are OK with "sin"
taxes. Junk food is a luxury item and I have no problem with
voluntary taxes on things like luxury items (as long as we are
going to have anything incentivized or discouraged through
taxes.)
Calories are a unit of heat, but saying all calories are the same
is stupid. The calories you consume in a coke could be used
consuming foods that contain nutritional value exceeding the act of
pouring sugar in your mouth. If you don't get that you are probably
fat.
As you suggest, drawing the line on what is junk food can be
difficult. Sodas are an easy call however.
Oz|12.15.08 @ 11:41AM|#
dirty fucking bastards. I never realized how brilliant the movie Demolition Man was until just now. We are definitely going to be eating dry dog food and having virtual sex very soon.
Alan Vanneman|12.15.08 @ 11:44AM|#
As part of our Puritan heritage, Americans have always loved sin
taxes. We're simply redefining sin, that's all. What's wrong with
that?
We'll tax "common" fat foods, but not classy ones. We should also
tax stretch pants and other clothes that encourage fatness (because
obesity enabling is a deadly sin!), and pretty much anything that
cool people like us don't do!
By the way, when I was growing up it was we kids who applied the
"tax bite," or rather tax sip. When Dad and his friends were
sitting out in the back yard we would (frequently) be sent in to
fetch a can of beer. Our reward was a sip of National Boe. This is
why I became a fucking socialist.
|12.15.08 @ 11:44AM|#
I can't fuckin' stand diet soda.* I'm 5'10" and 145 lbs and need
all of the fucking calories I can get. Perhaps the NY governor
knows more about what would be better food choices for me than I
do, but I seriously doubt it.
Haven't we libertarians been warning y'all?Suck it up fatties.
You're next.
* I only drink a dozen or so per year, $1.80 in taxes if I buy them
in NY.
</|12.15.08 @ 11:46AM|#
I guess it really comes down to whether you are OK with
"sin" taxes. Junk food is a luxury item and I have no problem with
voluntary taxes on things like luxury items (as long as we are
going to have anything incentivized or discouraged through
taxes.)
*....looks around confused.....*
What blog coments am I on?
Ska|12.15.08 @ 11:47AM|#
I'm with mad mike on this one. Your body can process sugar
better than it can process the fake shit in diet soda. I switched
from diet soda back to regular soda with no impact on my weight. I
*gasp* drink more water, and only have a regular sized soda every
so often instead of a diet soda all the time.
Oddly enough this was an application of a decision I made, as
opposed to some kind of bullshit sugar tarriff.
nebby|12.15.08 @ 11:47AM|#
Really? You would give yourself a migraine to avoid a 15 cent
expenditure? Whatever floats your boat.
The whole point is you don't have to pay this tax if you don't want
to. Have an iced tea, or water, or a lemonade if you simply must
load up on sugar. I will save my ire for taxes I can't avoid with
trivial effort.
(I know all taxes are evil, yadda yadda.)
|12.15.08 @ 11:50AM|#
Junk food is a luxury item and I have no problem with
voluntary taxes on things like luxury items (as long as we are
going to have anything incentivized or discouraged through
taxes.)
Give this man a studio apartment (bathroom down the hall), a change
of clothing, and a bowl of beans and rice.
Everything else is a luxury and should be taxed at a 15% rate.
Carbon footprint, depleting the world's resources etc. He should be
paying for that.
nebby|12.15.08 @ 11:51AM|#
"*....looks around confused.....*
What blog coments am I on?"
Some people who read reason can actually prioritize. Outrage at
police shooting grannies and the government tapping your phone
lines does not automatically equal spittle flecked fervor over
minute aspects of the tax system.
nebby|12.15.08 @ 11:54AM|#
"Everything else is a luxury and should be taxed at a 15% rate.
Carbon footprint, depleting the world's resources etc. He should be
paying for that."
Isn't this the current system? Your suggestion would result in a
huge tax decrease for me, so bring it on.
One note, beans and rice alone can't be considered decent
nutrition. Vegetables are a necessity and not a luxury. Of course,
it is a long long way from a few extra pennies on your soda to the
virtual hairshirt, but keep living the dream.
|12.15.08 @ 11:54AM|#
Ah, my favorite junk food story...
Sitting in a 5pm-7pm class. Before the first break the 5'5" 260lb
woman in front of me consumed a 1-liter of regular Mountain Dew,
two Pop-Tarts, and an entire tall can of Pringles.
On the break, she moaned to some of her friends: "I keep trying and
trying but I can't seem to lose this baby weight."
|12.15.08 @ 11:56AM|#
Vegetables are a necessity and not a luxury
But vegetables in what FORM?
Anyway, my brother-in-law is still alive and he doesn't eat
vegetables. Necessity?
Tsu Dho Nihm|12.15.08 @ 11:57AM|#
Ska,
I know a few people who switched back to regular soda who actually
lost weight.
Besides, artificial sweeteners seriously fuck with your
metabolism.
|12.15.08 @ 11:59AM|#
Screw you.
We've gone over this... I have no problems with other sugar-free
sweeteners (sucralose, acesulfame potassium, etc.), just aspartame
makes me violently ill for some reason. Of course, so long as it's
aspartame in most any diet pop, that kinda limits one's
options...
|12.15.08 @ 12:03PM|#
We are definitely going to be eating dry dog food and having
virtual sex very soon.
Hmm. I find this proposal intriguing. I assume this is a
both-or-neither type offer?
|12.15.08 @ 12:04PM|#
To give Paterson some credit, it's not like he would have done
this if it weren't for the fact that New York State is in need of
some serious cash. They are even looking at cutting education
spending and raising tuition at the public universities (which,
btw, is very low).
Still - HAHA! NY!
If I'm the retailer, I raise my prices to be even for all of my
products and just eat the $.15 tax on the regular sodas and make up
for it with charging more on the diets. Bring'em all up to a flat
$1.25 after tax rate and most everyone will moan about how prices
are going up, but nobody will remember it's because of a tax.
|12.15.08 @ 12:05PM|#
madmikefisk,
Just kidding around. My aversion to emoticons is a drain on clear
communication occasionally.
As for a real comment on topic... I'll never drink a regular soda
until normal circumstances, and I still think this tax is a bad
idea. A soda tax is the thin edge of the wedge; if you don't
believe me, light up a cigarette on a plane the next time you
fly.
|12.15.08 @ 12:12PM|#
Isn't this the current system? Your suggestion would result
in a huge tax decrease for me, so bring it on.
Ah, to be so young and innocent. When government imposes sin taxes,
they almost never cut other taxes. The greedy bastards want to soak
you for as much as you'll sit still for.
|12.15.08 @ 12:13PM|#
And in Hawaii, the soda tax was sold as being for Teh
Environmentz -- they taxed ALL bottles, not just soda.
But, it was still all about generating tax revenue under the guise
of "doing good."
|12.15.08 @ 12:19PM|#
In the interests of being completely fair:
Calories are calories, but some calories are worse than others. In
particular, calories in soft drinks are:
(1) Non-filling. They do not lead to a sense of satiety as an
equivalent caloric amount of food would. Therefore, they are likely
to be additional calories, over and above what you'd take in anyway
from other sources, rather than replacing those alternate
calories.
(2) Non-nutritive. Soft drinks supply few, if any, essential
nutrients. In other words, they're empty calories.
(3) Diabetes-inducing. Soft drinks contain simple sugars which are
rapidly absorbed by the body. This results in an insulin spike.
Over time this leads to insulin resistance, which is generally
accepted to be a forerunner to Type-II diabetes.
(4) In Mega-portions. The standard serving size listed on the size
of a bottle is generally 8 oz. Try getting an 8 oz. serving. So,
unless you majored in math, you're also likely to
"misunderestimate" just how much crap you're pouring through your
pie-hole at every feeding.
With all that said, libertarian personal choice property rights
yadda yadda, I choose not to consume any of this stuff of my own
accord, simply because it's so bad. In other words, I don't need a
stinkin' tax to tell me what's bad for me.
Not that I'm a health nut; this is just one of those things that's
so bad that I choose to cut it out of my diet.
It's water for me, most of the time (also saves $$$).
My general rule is, if I'm going to drink any calories, there
better be some alcohol in it for me too.
|12.15.08 @ 12:24PM|#
One note, beans and rice alone can't be considered decent
nutrition. Vegetables are a necessity and not a luxury. Of course,
it is a long long way from a few extra pennies on your soda to the
virtual hairshirt, but keep living the dream.
Wow, you are a colossal douchebag. Maybe Obama can make you Health
Czar.
NoStar|12.15.08 @ 12:26PM|#
The stupidity of this can't be understated.
For people without type 1 diabetes, artificial sweeteners by
tasting sweet fool the brain into producing more insulin. The extra
insulin helps the body to burn sugar resulting in hypoglycemia and
increased hunger.
Diet sodas are a major factor in the weight gains seen since the
1950's when they were introduced to unsuspecting consumers.
|12.15.08 @ 12:28PM|#
By the way, if you consumed 1500 calories a day of red beans and
rice (what I'm eating here at my desk), it would be extremely
nutritional.
Total Fat 54%
Saturated Fat 60%
Cholesterol 12%
Sodium 186%
Potassium 66%
Total Carbohydrate 78%
Dietary Fiber 47g 186%
Protein 50g 102%
Vitamin A 0 %
Vitamin C 30 %
Calcium 30 %
Iron 78 %
Vitamin D 0 %
Vitamin E 0 %
Thiamin 78 %
Riboflavin 36%
Niacin 54 %
Folate 156%
Vitamin B-6 42 %
Vitamin B-12 0 %
Phosphorus 90%
Magnesium 66 %
Zinc 42 %
Copper 72%
The salt can be controlled and a simple multivitamin would take
care of the slight vitamin deficiencies. A couple of carrots and a
glass of orange juice wouldn't hurt.
nannies-r-us|12.15.08 @ 12:30PM|#
This is just the first step towards a real obesity tax. Eventually, we will institute mandatory weigh-ins with taxes levied as appropriate.
short, fat bastard|12.15.08 @ 12:32PM|#
The blind nigger should keep his fingers in his own pockets.
stuartl|12.15.08 @ 12:34PM|#
Give this man a studio apartment (bathroom down the hall), a
change of clothing, and a bowl of beans and rice.
Everything else is a luxury and should be taxed at a 15% rate.
Carbon footprint, depleting the world's resources etc. He should be
paying for that.
Beans should be also be taxed at a higher rate since they increase
your carbon footprint.
!|12.15.08 @ 12:36PM|#
Beans should be also be taxed at a higher rate since they
increase your carbon methane
footprint.
|12.15.08 @ 12:40PM|#
So, unless you majored in math,
You're right, it IS terribly difficult to do simple division and
multiplication, especially if you went to public school.
I agree with you, though- if you're going to drink a non-nutritive
beverage, make it beer.
stuartl|12.15.08 @ 12:49PM|#
! -- I don't understand your correction. The chemical formula for methane is CH4. It is a greenhouse gas and it is oxidized in the atmosphere to produce CO2.
robc|12.15.08 @ 12:52PM|#
I agree with you, though- if you're going to drink a
non-nutritive beverage, make it beer.
After I started homebrewing, Ive stopped buying soda at the store.
Ive since mostly given it up when eating out, but I never have them
at home anymore.
Also, beer isnt non-nutritive, I would go with min-nutritive. Plus
some cancer fighting bits.
|12.15.08 @ 12:54PM|#
Just reading the replies shows how much misinformation there is in the world of nutritional biochemistry. Letting beauracrats act as if they have any understanding of this issue is the epitome of naive.
Paul|12.15.08 @ 12:54PM|#
Study Shows Sugar Is Just As Addictive As Cocaine,
Heroin
Study shows studies keep
showing that stuff is "just as addictive as cocaine,
heroin"
|12.15.08 @ 12:57PM|#
This is just a backdoor attempt to depress the market for
consumable HFCS, to free up supplies for ethanol.
Al Gore is behind it!
Bingo|12.15.08 @ 1:01PM|#
Hrm by that logic maybe heroin and cocaine really aren't all
that addictive??
We should really look at endorphin regulation, can't have people
being too happy you know.
mr simple|12.15.08 @ 1:10PM|#
dirty fucking bastards. I never realized how brilliant the
movie Demolition Man was until just now. We are definitely going to
be eating dry dog food and having virtual sex very soon.
Also, Ahnuld will be president. Time to start blowing stuff up.
Travis|12.15.08 @ 1:17PM|#
"Sitting in a 5pm-7pm class. Before the first break the 5'5"
260lb woman in front of me consumed a 1-liter of regular Mountain
Dew, two Pop-Tarts, and an entire tall can of Pringles.
On the break, she moaned to some of her friends: "I keep trying and
trying but I can't seem to lose this baby weight."
I tried that diet once, it didn't work for me either.
Salvius|12.15.08 @ 1:20PM|#
I'd like to rephrase that headline:
"Study shows cocaine, heroin no more addictive than sugar."
miche|12.15.08 @ 1:21PM|#
By the way, if you consumed 1500 calories a day of red beans and rice (what I'm eating here at my desk), it would be extremely nutritional.
I've got my red beans cooking right now. It's funny though that it
was my husband who wanted them today; I guess he was trying to tell
me to wash his laundry.
I never drink the stuff, but w|12.15.08 @ 1:43PM|#
How hard is it to make pop at home? And is it/will it be illegal to do so?
|12.15.08 @ 1:50PM|#
Also, beer isnt non-nutritive, I would go with
min-nutritive. Plus some cancer fighting bits.
Aye, good point. I picked up beer and wine in moderate amounts
again on the advice of my physician- he wants to see if it'll
affect my LDL/HDL ratio.
I'm with ya on homebrewing, btw. It's a fantastically fascinating
and fulfilling sort of hobby.
I never drink the stuff, but w|12.15.08 @ 1:50PM|#
Oh good. Then I don't have to start a trend, and continue conserving my teeth, pancreas, etc., leaving other people to make bad choices. Whew.
|12.15.08 @ 2:06PM|#
I've got my red beans cooking right now. It's funny though
that it was my husband who wanted them today; I guess he was trying
to tell me to wash his laundry.
Tuesday is Red Beans and Rice Laundry Day. Blasphemer! :o)
Naga Sadow|12.15.08 @ 2:12PM|#
Wait! Is beer, wine, and liquor considered a "luxury"? Cuz I would consider them to be neccessities.
|12.15.08 @ 2:23PM|#
Naga,
Take them as business write-offs. No taxes for bartenders for they
are the best of us.
|12.15.08 @ 2:26PM|#
My VitaminWater has crystalline fructose in it (along with its vapor distilled deionized and/or reverse osmosis water). It just *sounds* too healthy to be taxed!
|12.15.08 @ 2:29PM|#
I propose calorie caps! We must reduce the national consumption of calories to 20% of 1990 levels by 2050 to avoid world starvation/obesity!
|12.15.08 @ 2:41PM|#
My VitaminWater has crystalline fructose in it (along with
its vapor distilled deionized and/or reverse osmosis water). It
just *sounds* too healthy to be taxed!
Why the hell did Glaceau stop making the fruit-infused water? I
loved those, and no calories.
No Name Guy|12.15.08 @ 2:53PM|#
This boils down, simply, to: The nannies (of all stripes)
just..... can't.....leave..... their.... fellow.......
citizens....... alone.
How much you want to bet most of the a$$holes pushing this crap
can't / won't / don't even do ANYTHING remotely physical - mountain
bike, hike, run, swim, climb, etc?
anarch|12.15.08 @ 3:00PM|#
How much you want to bet most of the a$$holes pushing this crap can't / won't / don't even do ANYTHING remotely physical - mountain bike, hike, run, swim, climb, etc?
Not quite. There's a (probably archaic) German slur for bureaucrat:
"Bicyclist" - ie, someone who continually bows beneath those above
him continually treads on those under him.
Jason Nelms|12.15.08 @ 3:28PM|#
Another thing to remember in this is that there are people(like
myself) that have health conditions which prevent us from being
able to drink diet sodas. The sweeteners used are often times worse
for the body than sugar.
But this isn't about alternatives, it is about choice and people
should be able to freely choose how fast and to what degree we
damage our own damned bodies. I mean, if we do not have ownership
of our body then what the heck do we own?
Jason Nelms|12.15.08 @ 3:34PM|#
It looks like it is time to start making your own Cola in
NY.
Open Cola - the open sourced alternative to store bought Cola is a
good place to start.
Open Cola
miche|12.15.08 @ 3:39PM|#
Au contraire Prolefeed; in NOLA Monday is washday. My only sin is not heading further East when I moved to away from Dallas. Nobody in this small town appreciates my particular brand of spicyness.
miche|12.15.08 @ 3:40PM|#
moved away from dallas- just woke up from a nap and bad dream.
Gawd! what a nightmare- somebody was trying to steal my blow.
(I know, wrong thread for the blow comments.)
|12.15.08 @ 3:50PM|#
Why the hell did Glaceau stop making the fruit-infused
water?
Frankly, I am now seriously questioning your masculinity after that
statement.
|12.15.08 @ 4:21PM|#
Frankly, I am now seriously questioning your masculinity
after that statement.
Says the guy drinking VitaminWater. Not only is your drink healthy,
it's sweet. I bet you're a girl drink drunk, too. Have
another Strawberry Daiquiri.
|12.15.08 @ 4:26PM|#
I think I've mentioned elsewhere that the public health issues
tend to split down cultural lines determined by which vices each
side has.
Republican vices include fatty foods, cigarettes and liquor.
Democratic vices include sex (including porn), drugs, and obnoxious
music (rap, hip-hop, heavy metal).
Over the decades, the culture wars have largly played out by way of
each side trying to regulate the other guy's vices. Republicans
want to clamp down on drugs, casual sex, porn, and music lyrics
promoting violence, sex or suicide. Democrats want to stop everyone
from smoking, drinking, eating hamburgers and cokes. Not to mention
non-"organic" food.
The "obesity tax" is really just another chapter in this on-going
battle. The mirror image of warning labels on rap CDs and video
games.
|12.15.08 @ 5:00PM|#
Republican vices include fatty foods, cigarettes and
liquor.
Democratic vices include sex (including porn), drugs, and obnoxious
music (rap, hip-hop, heavy metal).
Well, that's just completely off base. Most smokers I know are on
the left side of political spectrum to varying degrees. The left
wingers I hang out with at work (ie. all of my co-workers) are
pretty heavy drinkers. I'd probably be classified as right leaning
libertarian and I'm into heavy metal (and pRon, don't forget the
pRon). In other words, I think your generalization is so general as
to be essentially useless in any further analysis.
snark for snark\'s sake|12.15.08 @ 5:21PM|#
"The left wingers I hang out with at
work (ie. all of my co-workers) are pretty heavy drinkers."
Not surprising.
|12.15.08 @ 8:04PM|#
The whole point is you don't have to pay this tax if you
don't want to. Have an iced tea, or water, or a lemonade if you
simply must load up on sugar. I will save my ire for taxes I can't
avoid with trivial effort.
Unfortunately you'll pay the taxes on iced tea and lemonade, but
really, why get anything other than tap water when you're in NYC,
it's delicious!
I'm with Peterson on this. But even if you could convince me this
is a bad tax (madmike and nostar had some good arguments) I'd still
be for banning soft drink sales to minors and banning all
advertising to minors for that matter. Things are starting to get
fucked up.
Head|12.15.08 @ 8:25PM|#
Bah,
I think I've mentioned elsewhere that the public health issues
tend to split down cultural lines determined by which vices each
side has.
I think the right embraces booze, cigs, fatties because of their
base: Tennesse, North Carolina, Georgia respectively.
And vice versa for the Dems. Just playing to their base.
Oh and EVERYONE likes porn.
|12.15.08 @ 8:39PM|#
But even if you could convince me this is a bad tax (madmike
and nostar had some good arguments) I'd still be for banning soft
drink sales to minors and banning all advertising to minors for
that matter. Things are starting to get fucked up.
Yeah. That NeHi Grape has got the younger generation all fucked
up.
|12.15.08 @ 10:04PM|#
Karl, well you could also say that plenty of Republicans do
drugs, and lots of Democrats hate mysogynistic rap lyrics.
But then if you look at which interest groups are advocating for
which things and which parties they tend to donate to, that's where
you get the split.
Anti-smoking groups donate to Democrats (regardless of how many
Democratic smokers there really are). Anti-porn groups donate to
Republicans (regardless of how many Republicans are actually avid
porn consumers). Regulating musical lyrics tends to be a Republican
Party concern. Regulating food content tends to be a Democratic
Party concern.
Both sides are pretty hypocricical when it comes to vices. I think
that's sort of the nature of a "vice". One side just feels more
guilty about indulging the more taboo less-accepted vices for their
side. (i.e. a Democrat might feel worse about smoking than about
watching porn, a Republican would feel the reverse. )
|12.16.08 @ 11:59AM|#
Says the guy drinking VitaminWater. Not only is your drink
healthy, it's sweet. I bet you're a girl drink drunk, too. Have
another Strawberry Daiquiri.
Feh! It's chocolate choo-choos or nothing!
Site comments/questions:
Media Inquiries and Reprint Permissions:
(310) 367-6109
Editorial & Production Offices:
3415 S. Sepulveda Blvd.
Suite 400
Los Angeles, CA 90034
(310) 391-2245