Killer Chic: Hollywood's Sick Love Affair with Che Guevara

Nick Gillespie | December 11, 2008

Gisele Bundchen wears him on the runway, Johnny Depp wears him around his neck, and Benicio Del Toro becomes him in the new, highly acclaimed, two-part epic film from Steven Soderbergh, Che. Ernesto "Che" Guevara, the revolutionary who helped found communist Cuba, is the celebrity that celebrities adore. And be it Madonna, Rage Against the Machine, or Jay-Z, musicians really dig Che.

It's something that baffles Cuban jazz legend Paquito D'Rivera. "Che hated artists, so how is it possible that artists still today support the image of Che Guevara?" Turns out the rebellious icon that emblazons countless T-shirts actually enforced aesthetic and political conformity. D'Rivera explains that Che and other Cuban authorities sought to ban rock and roll and jazz.

"Che was an inspiration for me," D'Rivera tells reason.tv. "I thought I have to get out of this island as soon as I can, because I am in the wrong place at the wrong time!" D'Rivera did escape Cuba, and so far he's won nine Grammy awards playing the kind of music Che tried to silence. But D'Rivera says Che's crimes didn't end with censorship. "He ordered the execution of many people with no trial." Che served as Castro's chief executioner, presiding over the infamous La Cabana prison. D'Rivera says Che's policy of killing innocents earned him the nickname-the Butcher of La Cabana.

"We're rightly horrified by fascist murderers like Adolph Hitler," says reason.tv's Nick Gillespie. "Why aren't we also horrified by communist killers?" Certainly, Che's body count isn't anywhere near Hitler's. But what about someone Che idolized, someone whom he might have liked to wear on his chest?

"Che, Castro, all the communist regimes idolized only one thing that Mao personifies—violence." Kai Chen grew up in China under the reign of Mao Zedong. Although he won gold medals for China's national basketball team, Chen's was far from the celebrity life of an NBA star. Says Chen, "You have no right to talk, and you have no right to think."

The punishment for questioning Mao's authority was often death. The Black Book of Communism estimates that Mao is responsible for the deaths of 65 million people—a figure that dwarfs even Hitler's body count. "Mao is a murderer," says Chen. "The biggest mass murderer in human history."

And yet, like Che, Mao's image is becoming an increasingly popular way to move merchandise. You can buy Mao t-shirts, mugs, caps-you name it. Near Chen's Los Angeles home there's even a restaurant called Mao's Kitchen. "Can you imagine a restaurant called Hitler's Kitchen?" asks Gillespie.

Neither D'Rivera nor Chen understands why communist killers are considered Chic, but each finds his own way to have the last laugh on these anti-capitalist icons.

"Killer Chic" is written and produced by Ted Balaker. Director of Photography is Alex Manning.

Go here for embed code, related materials, and iPod and HD versions.

Comments

Shrill Leftist|12.11.08 @ 7:11AM|#

At least Mao provided free health care for his people! Something the US has still failed to do!!

anarch|12.11.08 @ 7:27AM|#

Sure did.

Lamont Cranston|12.11.08 @ 7:34AM|#

This type of article is so unnecessary.

Is there any worse fate for the revolutionary communist than becoming the ultimate embodiment of kitschy consumerism?

Having that as his legacy would be the last thing he would have wanted, and is thus ideal.

|12.11.08 @ 7:35AM|#

Technically, I don't think Gisele picks what she wears on a runway.

VM|12.11.08 @ 7:37AM|#

kinda like the "KGB" kitsch. or in germany, "ostalgie"

|12.11.08 @ 7:46AM|#

OK, everyone. Altogether now. And a one, and a two, and a three:

But, but, Bush......

Abdul|12.11.08 @ 7:57AM|#

Che chic is blatantly superficial. If Che looked like Raul Castro, he'd just be another commie douchebag like Raul Castro.

Travis|12.11.08 @ 8:02AM|#

"Che is a murderer," says Chen. "The biggest mass murderer in human history."

Did he mean Mao was the biggest mass murder in history?

Mao|12.11.08 @ 8:06AM|#

Cracks about my weight are not appreciated.

Gilbert Martin|12.11.08 @ 8:13AM|#

"We're rightly horrified by fascist murderers like Adolph Hitler," says reason.tv's Nick Gillespie. "Why aren't we also horrified by communist killers?" Certainly, Che's body count isn't anywhere near Hitler's.

But both Stalin's and Mao's body count exceeded Hitler's and yet Hitler is the one who is most often offered up as the very epitome of evil.

|12.11.08 @ 8:14AM|#

Wearing a tee shirt is not a sick obsession.

Running twice weekly articles about tee shirts, on the other hand...

|12.11.08 @ 8:26AM|#

Gisele Bundchen wears him on the runway

How disappointing. She was so attractive before I read that.

-jcr

SIV|12.11.08 @ 8:27AM|#

"Can you imagine a restaurant called Hitler's Kitchen?"

Well yeah

ed|12.11.08 @ 8:28AM|#

a restaurant called Hitler's Kitchen

It probably wouldn't do as well as Che's Cocina.

What A Shock!|12.11.08 @ 8:28AM|#

joe defends communist totalitarians and the people who love them. come on, joe, tell us how the bullet to the head not so bad as long as a champion of the people is holding the gun.

Elemenope|12.11.08 @ 8:29AM|#

Amazingly, Gil, wiping an entire people from the face of the Earth captures more people's attention and imagination than killing what amounts to people who weren't there as "just some peasants". It may not be right, but these sorts of things are factors.

Also, the Nazis' atrocities were well-documented and well-advertised, while being engaged as an enemy in a world war. One of the reasons that the crimes of the USSR against its own people went largely unnoticed was because they were a critical wartime ally.

|12.11.08 @ 8:31AM|#

I think it comes down to several things: liberal college students that don't know what the fuck they're talking about is one. Another is that it's usually the same picture of Che, and he looks kind of hip and revolutionary in that picture and it looks good on a t-shirt. Hitler was kind of ugly and had a weird mustache -- his face wouldn't look good on any t-shirt. Some people that idolize Che that I know have said retarded things like, "George Washington murdered thousands of people and we still idolize him" as a justification for conveniently forgetting about Che's murders. I think also, people that dig Che don't give a shit about South Americans and they probably see the people that Che murdered as faceless nobodies that probably deserved it anyway.

Then again, I sometimes see Ted Bundy on t-shirts... hey, people like murderers. I saw "The Motorcycle Diaries" which was a nice movie, but I wish they then showed the parts about him murdering people later on.

|12.11.08 @ 8:42AM|#

Many actors/artists/models are superficial retards. This is a shock...to whom?

Personally, I like the Che t-shirts, because if I see someone wearing one, I know they are a fucking moron immediately. Takes the guesswork out of it.

cunnivore|12.11.08 @ 8:42AM|#

Wearing a tee shirt is not a sick obsession.

Copied, pasted, and catalogued for the next Confederate flag thread, joe. You'll not escape my sticky hands again.

But, I must note again that we have a frothy mixture of murderers and slaveholders adorning most of our currency, so it's not like we've got much moral high ground. Like Mal Reynolds said, every man who had a statue put up of him must have been one kind of sumbitch or another; it's not about him, it's about what the people who put him up need to believe.

|12.11.08 @ 8:42AM|#

One of the reasons that the crimes of the USSR against its own people went largely unnoticed was because they were a critical wartime ally.

That, and the fact that pinko scumbags like Walter Duranty were willing to lie in the pages of the New York Times on Stalin's behalf.

-jcr

Ska|12.11.08 @ 8:45AM|#

Have you tried the jaeger schnitzel at Hitler's Kitchen? Fried porky goodness I tell ya!

|12.11.08 @ 8:45AM|#

Agree with Jon. It's ridiculous to throw Bündchen in with the others because a designer had her wear something on a runway. That's like criticizing Bruno Gantz for playing Hitler on screen. This is the second time Reason has wronged the world's last remaining supermodel in less than a month. Is there an agenda at work here?

Elemenope|12.11.08 @ 8:48AM|#

Personally, I like the Che t-shirts, because if I see someone wearing one, I know they are a fucking moron immediately. Takes the guesswork out of it.

But what if they are wearing it ironically? That would stymie your moron-detection apparatus.

cunnivore|12.11.08 @ 8:49AM|#

Some people that idolize Che that I know have said retarded things like, "George Washington murdered thousands of people and we still idolize him" as a justification for conveniently forgetting about Che's murders.

And some people I know use the fact that it's Che supporters who say that to avoid wondering why we have slaveholders held in such high esteem. Don't get me wrong, I don't think people should wear Che shirts, but I also refuse to wear a t-shirt with anyone's picture on it (well, except for my HP Lovecraft shirt), and I also always try to discharge some type of disgusting bodily fluid on Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, and Jackson's pictures on our currency, in a silent protest.

ed|12.11.08 @ 8:50AM|#

the crimes of the USSR against its own people went largely unnoticed

JCR beat me to it, but:

They were plenty noticed. Reporters like this scum and the Hollywood propaganda machine simply refuse(d) to acknowledge it.

|12.11.08 @ 8:50AM|#

But what if they are wearing it ironically?

Well, that narrows it down to either a lack of taste or a lack of intelligence. Either way, you know that someone in a Che shirt need not be taken seriously.

-jcr

|12.11.08 @ 8:50AM|#

Have you tried the jaeger schnitzel at Hitler's Kitchen? Fried porky goodness I tell ya!

Schnitzel is traditionally made with veal, not pork. I'm reporting you to the Einsatzgruppen.

That's like criticizing Bruno Gantz for playing Hitler on screen.

He was fucking amazing in Der Untergang.

|12.11.08 @ 8:52AM|#

But what if they are wearing it ironically? That would stymie your moron-detection apparatus.

Attempting to wear it ironically would be an epic fail, so the wearer would still be a moron. Therefore, detection still successful. I can't lose!

cunnivore|12.11.08 @ 8:55AM|#

What if it's laundry day?

The Bachelor Code [Art. 3 Sec 56(a)] expressly permits wearing any random thing you can find in your apartment on laundry day.

|12.11.08 @ 8:58AM|#

= Jon Lee Anderson, author of the 850 + page 'Che Guevara: A Revolutionary life', who spent 5 years researching the man.

"I have yet to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed an innocent. Those persons executed by Guevara or on his orders were condemned for the usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath: desertion, treason or crimes such as rape, torture or murder."

@ The Legacy of Che Guevara" at PBS Online Newshour Forum (20 November 1997)

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/forum/november97/che1.html

P|12.11.08 @ 8:59AM|#

that was REALLY good!

Xeones|12.11.08 @ 9:02AM|#

and I also always try to discharge some type of disgusting bodily fluid on Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, and Jackson's pictures on our currency, in a silent protest.

Um. I recently acquired some disgusting currency that i need to have words with you about.

|12.11.08 @ 9:03AM|#

--- "... HITLER ..." ---

REDUCTIO AD HITLERUM: dog Latin for "reduction (or argument) to Adolf Hitler (or the Nazis)" - is a modern informal fallacy in logic. It is a variety of both questionable cause and association fallacy. The phrase reductio ad Hitlerum was coined by an academic ethicist, Leo Strauss, in 1953. Engaging in this fallacy is sometimes known as playing the Nazi card.

+

GODWIN'S LAW: (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies) is an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states:

"As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

The law is now applied to any threaded online discussion: electronic mailing lists, message boards, chat rooms, and more recently BLOG COMMENT THREADS and wiki talk pages.

|12.11.08 @ 9:08AM|#

To Mike in Boston, (above)

It's politically blasphemous to say anything positive, or even nuanced about Che around right-wing Americans. Worldwide, however, the loathing of Che is an extreme minority view.

Che was more complex and contradictory an historical figure than some people understand.

However simple minded Americans like their characters to be unambiguous and simple: Good OR Bad; Black OR White; Saint OR Sinner, etc. In reality, things are rarely so simple.

That's one of the reasons that ADOLF HITLER is so often pulled out in an argument: There are relatively few people who embody absolute evil so clearly and readily.

The hysteria and the manic frustration expressed by right-wingers regarding the continuing-and growing-popularity and iconic status of Che is in itself very revealing. Complexity is not their strong suit. Seeing more than the surface is a little hard for right-wingers. Everyone must fit into the "Superman vs. Lex Luthor" box. Reality is harder to pigeonhole.

Can most conservatives tell you anything at all about Fulgencio Batista? Do they mention the 20,000 Cubans killed by Batista's mafia based police state? Do they discuss the difference in how Che's men released all captured enemy soldiers, while Batista's goons gouged their eyes out and tortured them?

Nah ... to a right-winger (the kind that wanted to hand the nuke codes to a half-literate ex beauty queen who believes in witchcraft & a fatherless messianic carpenter zombie) there are only heroes and villians. Just like in their biblical fables they cling to so much.

cunnivore|12.11.08 @ 9:08AM|#

As a threaded discussion grows longer, the probability of ASCII art of walruses fucking being posted also approaches one, since adding posts can't reduce the probability (and the Infinite Monkey Theorem shows that the probability is exactly one given an infinite number of posts).

So can I get a law named after me?

|12.11.08 @ 9:12AM|#

Che defenders are fucking hilarious. Keep up the good work, dudes. I need the amusement.

cunnivore|12.11.08 @ 9:13AM|#

However simple minded Americans like their characters to be unambiguous and simple: Good OR Bad; Black OR White; Saint OR Sinner, etc. In reality, things are rarely so simple.

I'm totally comfortable with my "simplistic" inability to consider a mass murderer a hero. I'd have a similar negative opinion about Batista or Allende or Shah shirts, by the way, but nobody wears them.

Travis|12.11.08 @ 9:18AM|#

Epi,

I'm hoping someone will compare Che to Jesus again.

|12.11.08 @ 9:19AM|#

Worldwide, however, the loathing of Che is an extreme minority view.

America: 1
Rest of the World: 0

Seward|12.11.08 @ 9:19AM|#

Neiman Marxist,

I think it is safe to say that the popularity of Che has little or nothing to do with Che's deeds and mostly to do with a particular photo of the guy. That's about how "complex" the situation is.

As for Che, he was a complete and abject failure in his activities outside of Cuba.

|12.11.08 @ 9:20AM|#

There's nothing more tedious than politically correct culture criticism from the right. I swear you guys are as tone deaf as bell hooks.

|12.11.08 @ 9:22AM|#

Travis,

I'm hoping someone will compare Che to Jesus again.

The whole Che/Jesus thing is all the Bolivians fault for letting this picture be taken. Maybe a Shroud of La Cabana will show up.

|12.11.08 @ 9:22AM|#

Executing people for desertion

ah well thats just fine and dandy

If the state sez you gotta kill
you gotta kill
and if you say no then you get killed as well

Pinko F@ck wit

Elemenope|12.11.08 @ 9:23AM|#

...the Infinite Monkey Theorem shows that the probability is exactly one given an infinite number of posts...

That is only true if each post is required to be unique from any other post. If not, there is no necessity for any given configuration to arise even in an infinite series.

Elemenope|12.11.08 @ 9:24AM|#

Executing people for desertion

ah well thats just fine and dandy

If the state sez you gotta kill
you gotta kill
and if you say no then you get killed as well

Pinko F@ck wit

Yes. Clearly only leftist armies execute soldiers for desertion.

Fuck wit.

.|12.11.08 @ 9:25AM|#

GODWIN'S LAW: (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies)...

...is over-utilized. Hitler actually did exist (unlike the characters on, say, Battlestar Galactica) and his crimes serve as a useful benchmark. Shouting down Hitler analogies is childish, and yelling "Drink!" whenever he is mentioned is moronic, to be charitable.

Citizen Nothing|12.11.08 @ 9:25AM|#

What? You haven't seen all the Batista tees at the Young Republican meetings?

The beauty part is, guys like Neiman Marxist don't realise they are self-parodies.

|12.11.08 @ 9:26AM|#

Uncle Sam needs to think twice before making Martyrs ...


"We predict that Guevara will be eulogized as the model revolutionary who met a heroic death."

--- October 1967, Bureau of Intelligence and Research report for US Secretary of State Dean Rusk

Citizen Nothing|12.11.08 @ 9:27AM|#

I also love it when the politically naive tell me that I'm on "the right."
No, I really do. They're precious.

|12.11.08 @ 9:30AM|#

I'm hoping someone will compare Che to Jesus again.

It's already been done in spirit.

I also love it when the politically naive tell me that I'm on "the right."

Dude, you don't love a murderer named Che. That makes you more right-wing than Sean Hannity.

ed|12.11.08 @ 9:30AM|#

I'm hoping someone will compare Che to Jesus again

Like this you mean? (Che-Christ shows up toward the end.)

|12.11.08 @ 9:31AM|#

"Che ate babies, he stole my mansion which had 45 bedrooms in it, life was heaven in Cuba before Che with United Fruit owning the island ... then he personally shot 3,500,000,000 people and then drank their blood one by one. My Grandmas sisters aunts brothers neighbor who was blind, one time saw Che bite the head off of a young kitten."

~ Every bitter former oligarch exile 'Gusano' I run into in Miami

Seward|12.11.08 @ 9:32AM|#

When does Tania the Guerilla get her t-shirt?

|12.11.08 @ 9:33AM|#

Elemenope

"Yes. Clearly only leftist armies execute soldiers for desertion"

Ain't a question of left or right its a question of authoritarian vs libertarian

The state has no right to forcing someone to fight be it left or right

people who think otherwise are known as fuckwits

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 9:34AM|#

Technically, I don't think Gisele picks what she wears on a runway.

It's ridiculous to throw Bündchen in with the others because a designer had her wear something on a runway.

Guys, this is Gisele we are talking about here. I guran-damn-tee you that she has the kind of negotiating power to say "I am not wearing Che up there."

Shall I regale you with the facts, or just say she's worth more than the entire GDP of small island nations?

|12.11.08 @ 9:34AM|#

Let the 'beaners' have their heroes ...


"Che is fairly intellectual for a Latino."

- Declassified CIA Document

Seward|12.11.08 @ 9:36AM|#

Elemenope,

Yes. Clearly only leftist armies execute soldiers for desertion.

You do realize that libertarians oppose conscription in toto, right? I certainly can't think of a situation where a libertarian would support it.

Don the libertarian Democrat|12.11.08 @ 9:37AM|#

It's a mystery. He's hardly icon material. More like Chamber of Horrors. I could be wrong about this, but didn't the Bolivian peasants tell him to the get the hell out of here?

|12.11.08 @ 9:38AM|#

im hoping someone will compare Che to Jesus again


"The resemblance to aspects of Christ's life on earth can be easily traced in the life of Che. Both were doctors - Christ as miracle healer, Che as the trained physician, and were active as such, even or especially so when they were fighting, doctoring when others were resting or escaping. Both men were particularly concerned with leprosy, the disease of the downtrodden and outcast, as The Motorcycle Diaries (books and film) have reminded us in the case of Che. Like Che, Jesus was an egalitarian, a communist in terms of owning little and sharing all, and his disciples were bidden to hold all in common. Both were strict disciplinarians, who insisted on individuals leaving families, friends and privileges behind to join them, sacrificing comforts and, if need be, their own lives."

-- David Kunzle, author of Che Guevara: Icon, Myth, and Message

Citizen Nothing|12.11.08 @ 9:42AM|#

And it's a well-known fact that Jesus had Judas shot for desertion.

|12.11.08 @ 9:42AM|#

Its interesting the Christ gets mentioned

I'm still undecided as to who I hate more bible bashers or pinkos

|12.11.08 @ 9:43AM|#

What a shock, people who feel the need to make shit up about me won't put their names one their comments!

joe defends communist totalitarians and the people who love them.

Yeah, fucknuts, where was that again? Could you point it out? What's that, you can't?

Didn't think so.

|12.11.08 @ 9:45AM|#

cunnivore,

Copied, pasted, and catalogued for the next Confederate flag thread, joe. You'll not escape my sticky hands again.

Whatever floats your boat, d00d. I don't believe I've ever written a word about confederate flag tee shirts.

I don't like 'em, but I really don't feel the need to hold forth on them, either. Hence, my comment about a sick obsession.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 9:45AM|#

yet again, joe goes for the title of "Queen Attention Whore".

You know what you did, joe.

Citizen Nothing|12.11.08 @ 9:46AM|#

I want a tee with joe's face on it. You got one a them revolutionary hats, joe?

|12.11.08 @ 9:46AM|#

joe, I am only saying this because I care--there're a lot of decaffeinated brands on the market that are just as tasty as the real thing.

Elemenope|12.11.08 @ 9:48AM|#

MM --

I agree with you only in the context of conscripted armies. Volunteer armies are another thing again. Presumably a recruit in such an army knows for what they are signing up. Since desertion during combat can jeopardize the lives of others in the unit, it is reasonable for there to be a harsh punishment for it. And while I am by default against the death penalty for use by the government, in times and places where the death penalty has been acceptable, it is notable that punishing desertion and treason has nearly always been considered one of its legitimate applications.

So your criticism I think is misplaced.

Citizen Nothing|12.11.08 @ 9:48AM|#

Actually, one with joe on the front and Optimist on the back would be perfect.

I actually do have a Che bandana. I haven't found the right event to wear it to, though. Maybe next time I'm at a Federalist Society meeting.

Citizen Nothing|12.11.08 @ 9:49AM|#

Or a Ron Paul meet-up

Xeones|12.11.08 @ 9:50AM|#

Che-lover, KNOW YOUR AUDIENCE. Posting inane defenses of a totalitarian icon on a libertarian website isn't a terribly productive way to be. But then, if you were a productive, intelligent person, you wouldn't find anything admirable in Che in the first place.

|12.11.08 @ 9:50AM|#

When I visited Bolivia a few years back I was suprised at how many times I saw Che compared to Jesus or mentioned as a saint etc. Hell I even saw pictures of Che alongside who I guess was the virgin Mary.

The Observer wrote an article about later called "The Final Triumph of Saint Che".

As a Libertarian Athiest I could care less. In fact to me "The God" of the Bible sounds similar to Che ...

James 5:1-6: "Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter. You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you."

|12.11.08 @ 9:51AM|#

Episiarch,

You've written twice as many comments on the thread as I have, and you're telliing me to switch to decaf?

Talk about your sick obsessions.

Xeones|12.11.08 @ 9:52AM|#

Yeah, but joe, Epi is funny.

|12.11.08 @ 9:52AM|#

The hysteria and the manic frustration expressed by right-wingers regarding the continuing-and growing-popularity and iconic status of Che is in itself very revealing. Complexity is not their strong suit.

Tell me about it. These are people who can't distinguish between the statements "obsessing over Che tee shirts is weird" and "Che is a hero."

Travis|12.11.08 @ 9:52AM|#

"Both men were particularly concerned with leprosy, the disease of the downtrodden and outcast, as The Motorcycle Diaries (books and film) have reminded us in the case of Che."

My favorite part of the Motorcycle Diaries is when Che swam across the Amazon River to be with the Lepors.

|12.11.08 @ 9:53AM|#

No American hero ever presided over an extrajudicial execution? Really?

What makes you so sure that George Washington wasn't an admitted murderer? What other American icons have participated in a rogue execution or three? I don't have a positive view of Che Guevara, but Nieman Marxist is spot on at 9:08.

shecky|12.11.08 @ 9:53AM|#

Te Right's ability to get so pissed off over such a meaningless symbol as a Che tshirt only goads folks into producing more Che stuff. Nobody else really cares about him.

|12.11.08 @ 9:53AM|#

JESUS: "I came to bring a sword"

CHE: "I Brought it !"

|12.11.08 @ 9:54AM|#

joe, way to completely miss the Real Genius quote.

(tosses quarter to joe)

Go downtown and see if you can buy a used sense of humor. And maybe have a rat gnaw that chip off your shoulder too.

(hint--that's an Uncle Buck reference)

|12.11.08 @ 9:56AM|#

You got one a them revolutionary hats, joe?

You mean like the Batman hat in Red Son?

"Why shouldn't Batman have a warm hat?"

|12.11.08 @ 9:58AM|#

Che Biographer Jon Lee Anderson points out how after El Che's body was brought to Vallegrande ...

"Among the hospital's nuns, the nurse who washed his body, and a number of Vallegrande women, the impression that Che Guevara bore an extraordinary resemblance to Jesus Christ quickly spread; they surreptitiously clipped off clumps of his hair and kept them for good luck."

That's why it is important for us non-believers who support "reason" to attack all primitive fetishism of religion.

|12.11.08 @ 9:58AM|#

I find it amusing that Che has become a lifestyle accessory for the very people he wanted to eradicate.

"Sweatshop" t-shirts emblazoned with the iconic likeness of the Great Liberator, subject to copyright disputes. Tee hee.

Fuck you, you rat bastard.

|12.11.08 @ 9:58AM|#

As for Che the murder...

I can't imagine that Castro would have condemned anyone to La Cabana who wasn't an actual deserter, war criminal, or spy. The notion of a communist dictator unfairly locking up political enemies and sentencing them to death after seizing power in a bloody coup is so fanciful only blinkered right-wing extremists like libertarians could possibly believe it.

|12.11.08 @ 9:58AM|#

Totally whiffed on the Real Genius quote.

Now THAT'S embarrassing.

Not as embarrassing as admitting to having seen Uncle Buck, though.

Citizen Nothing|12.11.08 @ 9:59AM|#

I thought the profit motive was what "goaded" people to produce Che tees.

Elemenope|12.11.08 @ 9:59AM|#

"I don't get all choked up over American flags or yellow ribbons either. Those are symbols, and I leave symbols to the symbol-minded."

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 9:59AM|#

What makes you so sure that George Washington wasn't an admitted murderer?...I don't have a positive view of Che Guevara, but Nieman Marxist is spot on at 9:08.

Lamar, what is your malfunction?

You want me to prove a negative? If you want to prove that Washington participated in an execution, then by all means, provide some proof.

Right now you are just implying guilt without evidence.

What other American icons have participated in a rogue execution or three?

Yet again, go prove it and get back to me and stop alluding to shadowy guilt sans proof.

|12.11.08 @ 10:01AM|#

Not as embarrassing as admitting to having seen Uncle Buck, though.

Are you slagging John Candy, dude?!?

|12.11.08 @ 10:01AM|#

I hate what Che stood for
I hate Communism
I hate Che kitsch

But as a woman, let me tell you, the guy looked damn good. That's why he's popular. Because he's hot!

Citizen Nothing|12.11.08 @ 10:01AM|#

OK, joe. I admit I had to look up the Red Son reference. But that hat would be perfect!

Seward|12.11.08 @ 10:02AM|#

Elemenope,

Presumably a recruit in such an army knows for what they are signing up.

Guerilla groups (of all ideological stripes) throughout the 20th century were pretty notorious for pressing the unwilling into service (particularly young men). Given that, I think one has to explore just how voluntary the military wing of the group behind the Cuban revolution was.

|12.11.08 @ 10:04AM|#

I can finally put my VHS of Real Genius out to pasture. The DVD is only $6.99 on amazon. It's had a good life. I rescued it from a used video bin at a Movie Warehouse in 1987.

Seward|12.11.08 @ 10:07AM|#

TAO,

Washington did have some folks executed while he was a commander of the Continental Army.

|12.11.08 @ 10:07AM|#

to The Angry Optimist

Would the nuking of 250,000 civilian Japanese count?

As for George Washington (large slave holder who raped his female slaves while they were shackled in barns) --- he EXECUTED 10 French ambassadors in 1754 at Jumonville Glen as a 22 year old Lieutenant Colonel in the Virginia militia.

Check mate.

|12.11.08 @ 10:08AM|#

"Volunteer armies are another thing again. Presumably a recruit in such an army knows for what they are signing up. Since desertion during combat can jeopardize the lives of others in the unit, it is reasonable for there to be a harsh punishment for it. And while I am by default against the death penalty for use by the government, in times and places where the death penalty has been acceptable, it is notable that punishing desertion and treason has nearly always been considered one of its legitimate applications."

Volunteer army

meaning voluntary

as in you have the right to walk away at anytime

also known as desertion

As soon as desertion becomes a crime the army can no longer be classed a volunteer army

By your reasoning Gerorge Orwell should have been shot for leaving a volunteer army

Lurker|12.11.08 @ 10:08AM|#

I don't wear shirts with Washington on them either.

|12.11.08 @ 10:09AM|#

The DVD is only $6.99 on amazon

It took them ages to put that out on DVD. What were they thinking? Why didn't Anchor Bay step up to the plate?

Citizen Nothing|12.11.08 @ 10:09AM|#

"Washington did have some folks executed while he was a commander of the Continental Army."

See? Che tees for everybody!

Seward|12.11.08 @ 10:09AM|#

I'm curious. Do the biographies of Che sell as well as the t-shirts? Biographies of Marilyn Monroe and Elvis seem to sell pretty well. How do the latter compare to the former?

|12.11.08 @ 10:10AM|#

Yeah, that's a pretty sweet hat.

Che is popular because he broke with Castro over Castro's governing methods. He's seen, rightly or wrongly, as a socialist revolutionary who didn't like communist dictatorship, and thought that the regime Castro set up after coming to power was too tyranical and a betrayal of the ideals it was supposed to represent.

Which is a pretty gross simplification and distortion of what actually went down, but because Che 1) criticized what Castro did after coming to power, 2) left Cuba and chose full-time revolutionizing over being a communist apparatchik and 3) got "martyred," this idea has grown up that he represents an alternative to the Castro/USSR/Eastern European version of communism.

So the appearance of Che iconography is not meant by the people wearing it to be an endorsement of Castroism, but of some vague, ephemeral version of socialist revolution that is supposed to stand in contrast to Castro.

|12.11.08 @ 10:11AM|#

Washington doesn't need Tee's

His face is on U.$. currency, his name is on hundreds of schools, a state and a capitol.

Citizen Nothing|12.11.08 @ 10:11AM|#

Where are all the Trotsky tees?

Seward|12.11.08 @ 10:11AM|#

scarface,

Well, we should also keep in mind that the lash was still used as a punishment in 18th century armies and navies.

|12.11.08 @ 10:12AM|#

TAO: I'm not required to be your freaking history teacher, but George Washington's attacks on the French at Jumonville, and subsequent "confession" are part of the historical record.

So, in a sense, you have proven at least one negative.

Citizen Nothing|12.11.08 @ 10:13AM|#

Never mind. I found one. And it's sweet.
http://www.radicaljack.com/trotsky.html

Seward|12.11.08 @ 10:13AM|#

joe,

Che is popular because he broke with Castro over Castro's governing methods.

I doubt that. Most people have no idea what the relationship between those two figures were.

|12.11.08 @ 10:14AM|#

TAO really stands out not just for his capacity to know things that aren't actually true and not know other things, but to do so with a passion that is easily aroused into fury at hearing something that disturbs his misunderstandings.

|12.11.08 @ 10:16AM|#

Do the biographies of Che sell as well as the t-shirts?

The 3 main biographies: 'Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life' by Jon Lee Anderson - 'Companero: The Life and Death of Che Guevara' by Jorge G. Castaneda - & 'Guevara, Also Known as Che' by Paco Ignacio Taibo II ... are all best sellers.

Pretty good reads all 3 of them, with Taibo being the best in my opinion.

Seward|12.11.08 @ 10:17AM|#

Anyway, if all that we had to contend with of the disasterous policies of the left of the 20th century were some Che t-shirts I'd gladly take that.

|12.11.08 @ 10:17AM|#

Seward,

Like I said, the description I just provided is a gross simplification and distortion of what actually happened.

But there's a nugget of truth - Che did break with Castro, and didn't like seeing The Revolution turn into a stifling bureaucratic state - around which the myth has grown up.

My point was to describe the mindset of those Americans to whom Che is an icon. I'm certainly not claiming that represents accurate history.

heretic|12.11.08 @ 10:18AM|#

"We're rightly horrified by fascist murderers like Adolph Hitler," says reason.tv's Nick Gillespie. "Why aren't we also horrified by communist killers?"

That one is a piece of cake. Who benefited from communism, and who didn't benefit from fascism? The same group of people. Think about it.

Seward|12.11.08 @ 10:18AM|#

LiberaCHE,

How do they compare to the biographies of Elvis and Marilyn Monroe?

|12.11.08 @ 10:19AM|#

"My point was to describe the mindset of those Americans to whom Che is an icon."

Che was a good-looking California surfer, with a dark side.....

|12.11.08 @ 10:20AM|#

Ok im a Cuban American who hates Castro and communism & I even hate Che for the most part - but even I struggle explaining to young Cuban American kids why they shouldnt like el Che. His face is now seperate from the man it seems. and yes many of my countrymen in Cuba absolutely adore the man as hes the saint of the island for the most part which is sad.

Seward|12.11.08 @ 10:21AM|#

joe,

Your gross simplification doesn't really make much sense to me.

|12.11.08 @ 10:22AM|#

That one is a piece of cake. Who benefited from communism, and who didn't benefit from fascism? The same group of people. Think about it.

Communists?

"Not much fun in Stalingrad."

"Make joke! Not head of Gestapo at all!"

Citizen Nothing|12.11.08 @ 10:22AM|#

"The same group of people."

Ah. Yes. Clear as mud.
Choose one from the following list.

1)The proletariat
2)The Communist apparatchik
3)Big Business
4)The Joose
5)The Queen of England
6)The Black Guelphs
7)Some mercenary now living in Fiji
8)Milton Friedman

Seward|12.11.08 @ 10:23AM|#

Lamar,

Yeah, that he was a good lookin' fella explains about 99% of the romanticism associated with him.

Citizen Nothing|12.11.08 @ 10:23AM|#

Although, technically, 5, 7 and 8 aren't a group of people, so we can probably cross them off the list of suspects.

Seward|12.11.08 @ 10:25AM|#

Citizen Nothing,

Clearly Charles II (the Stuart King of England, Scotland and Wales) was the chief benefactor of 20th century Communism.

Citizen Nothing|12.11.08 @ 10:25AM|#

Of course!
(slaps head)

|12.11.08 @ 10:25AM|#

"at least Mao provided free health care for his ppl something the US has failed to do".... wow.. truly and obliviously ignorant or just expressing severe down syndrome in your brain....

Would praise the USA if it provided free health care to its people but killed 65 million, sent all who oppose to death/work camps????

either way.. Mao DID NOT provide free health care to his people... there were 1BILLION chinese at the time and China was one of the poorest countries were over 70% of its ppl had no education!!... yep.. def. retarded you are!

|12.11.08 @ 10:26AM|#

As a professional photographer I can state that "Guerrillero Heroico" is a damn cool picture.

As for Che's life - who cares.

Seward|12.11.08 @ 10:28AM|#

Citizen Nothing,

Oh, we need a group? Charles II and his Protestant mistresses; not the Catholic ones though.

Citizen Nothing|12.11.08 @ 10:28AM|#

Uh, kalelo. While I'm sure we all appreciate your effort, you should probably check out the poster's name in that post you reference.

|12.11.08 @ 10:33AM|#

As for George Washington (large slave holder who raped his female slaves while they were shackled in barns) --- he EXECUTED 10 French ambassadors in 1754 at Jumonville Glen as a 22 year old Lieutenant Colonel in the Virginia militia.

You may be new here, so I'll cut you some slack just this once.

No linkee, no believee.

PR|12.11.08 @ 10:33AM|#

Che is a good commie. Do they make cadaver Che t-shirts?

|12.11.08 @ 10:34AM|#

Clearly Charles II (the Stuart King of England, Scotland and Wales) was the chief benefactor of 20th century Communism.

20th century communism = Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

|12.11.08 @ 10:35AM|#

J sub D:

Check out the link at my 10:12 post.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 10:35AM|#

Not to be a pedant, but if you do not see a substantive difference between "executing enemies during wartime in the 1750s" and "executing gays in Communist prison", I cannot help you.

I was historically and factually mistaken. That does not negate the attempt here to draw some kind of stupid analogy between GW and Che Guevara.

|12.11.08 @ 10:35AM|#

As an Existentialist, I hold the opinion of the philosopher Jean Paul Sartre in high esteem.

This is what he said about Che Guevara (whom he personally knew):

~ "Not only an intellectual but also the most complete human being of our age."

~ "Our era's most perfect man."

~ "He lived his words, spoke his own actions and his story and the story of the world ran parallel."

Let's see ... One of the 20th centuries greatest philosophical minds ... or an imbittered Cuban Jazz musician ??? (tough one)

|12.11.08 @ 10:35AM|#

Che was a good-looking California surfer, with a dark side.....

Bullseye, Lamar. Funny.

Seward,

Well, it's not my gross simplification, but it seems pretty straightforward to me. Implausibly straightforward, actually, which is how you can tell it's a myth.

|12.11.08 @ 10:37AM|#

"Gisele! Take off that shirt!"

|12.11.08 @ 10:37AM|#

I have an answer. We're a sick, deranged species.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 10:37AM|#

Lamar,

The wikipedia article does not seem to mention anything at all about executions.

Citizen Nothing|12.11.08 @ 10:39AM|#

Sounds like Sartre had a thang for Che.

|12.11.08 @ 10:39AM|#

As long as we're discussing disturbingly ignorant sickening amoral leftist fawning over scum -

FREE MUMIA!

Seward|12.11.08 @ 10:39AM|#

Existentialist,

Sartre also defended the killing of the Israeli athletes at Munich.

|12.11.08 @ 10:40AM|#

That does not negate the attempt here to draw some kind of stupid analogy between GW and Che Guevara.


Ed Sullivan & President Harry Truman both referred to Che Guevara as:

(A) "The George Washington of Cuba."
(B) "The George Washington of Cuba."
(C) "The George Washington of Cuba."
(D) All of the above


As for posting a link (earlier request) what html code is needed ?

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 10:41AM|#

Scarface - are Harry Truman and Ed freakin' Sullivan some kind of authoritative source I have to bow down to?

</|12.11.08 @ 10:42AM|#

Che panties

|12.11.08 @ 10:43AM|#

TAO: This is from Jumonville's entry:

Joseph Coulon de Villiers, Sieur de Jumonville (8 September 1718 - May 28, 1754) was a French Canadian military officer. His defeat at the Battle of Jumonville Glen and his murder after surrendering to George Washington would help spark the French and Indian War (Seven Years' War).

|12.11.08 @ 10:46AM|#

Ed Sullivan & President Harry Truman both referred to Che Guevara as:

(A) "The George Washington of Cuba."

A! No, C! No...Pass! No Whammies no whammies no whammies...

At lot of 50s-era covert propaganda in the west was aimed at winning over democratically-inclined socialists, who were pretty much the only "swing voters" during the Cold War. The CIA helped distribute Animal Farm, by that socialist George Orwell.

Talking up Che after his break with Casto, making it look like the pro-Moscow dictator was an apostate from the true principles of socialism, would have fit right into that strategy.

|12.11.08 @ 10:47AM|#

The , html doesn't work ... which do you use for this site ?

|12.11.08 @ 10:48AM|#

Lamar,

The wikipedia article does not seem to mention anything at all about executions.

Documented shackled slave rape also seems to be missing.

But hey, that doesn't matter, I read it on the intertubez so it must be true.

|12.11.08 @ 10:48AM|#

I've been trying to figure out a way to say that both George Washington and Che Guevara had one thing in common: they have come to symbolize something so much that their actual actions have ceased to be what they are known for.

Then I remembered that big hunk of paper on my bookshelf: "In historic events, the so-called great men are labels giving names to events, and like labels they have but the smallest connection with the event itself. Every act of theirs, which appears to them an act of their own will, is in an historical sense involuntary and is related to the whole course of history and predestined from eternity."

|12.11.08 @ 10:49AM|#

Lamar:

"Washington treated Jumonville as a prisoner of war and extended him the customary courtesies due a captured military officer. Washington attempted to interrogate Jumonville but the language barrier made communication difficult. During their conversation however, the Half King walked up to Jumonville and without warning struck him in the head with a tomahawk, killing him."

He was killed by the Seneca chief.

Also:

"Other accounts state that de Jumonville was not in fact captured but was one of the first killed by Washington's expeditionary forces. Adam Stephen, a military officer who had accompanied Washington to the scene stated that Jumonville "was kill'd the first fire." No reference was made to Jumonville's having been captured and unsuccessfully interrogated by Colonel Washington. [1] Also, it is unclear as to whether de Jumonville's life was dispatched by bullet or tomahawk. In his journal, George Washington stated that Half-King 'was credited in certain quarters with having slain that officer [Jumonville] with his hatchet; but this was without any foundation in fact.'"

Washington was not a saint, but he doesn't seem to have executed anyone here.

|12.11.08 @ 10:50AM|#

What about Mandela ?

"Che's life is an inspiration for every human being who loves freedom. We will always honor his memory." ~ Nelson Mandela

(The GAP must've been running a promotion)

|12.11.08 @ 10:51AM|#

The US killed far more than Che. But, I guess those were for a good cause.

Dello|12.11.08 @ 10:51AM|#

"Che was pretty fly for a white guy."

--CIA memo

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 10:51AM|#

Lamar, given the fact that Jumonville is clearly a very weak attempt, let's go for round two on this one, shall we?

What makes you so sure that George Washington wasn't an admitted murderer?

Not my job to prove a negative.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 10:52AM|#

The US killed far more than Che. But, I guess those were for a good cause.

Must be...some kind of drive to draw equivalence between the United States and Commie executioners.

Because all deaths are created equal, right, anon?

|12.11.08 @ 10:53AM|#

To black Guy (above)

"Long live our cry of freedom. Long Live Che !" --- Jesse Jackson, in 1984 at the University of Havana

Dello|12.11.08 @ 10:53AM|#

anon,
"The US killed far more than Che. But, I guess those were for a good cause."

You'll notice how few smart people there are wearing US presidents on their T-shirts (well, after the election anyway).

|12.11.08 @ 10:53AM|#

TAO: Your mad dash to the Wikipedia and related sources in order to explain, justify, or otherwise harmonize killing people with your vision of Washington as a hero should enlighten you to how people explain, justify or otherwise harmonize killing people with their vision of Che as a hero.

Feddajien|12.11.08 @ 10:53AM|#

The story of Che is complex, people who boil it down to "I HATEZ HIM BECAUSE ALL THE BEAUTIFUL GIRLS LIKE HIM" and "CHE IS A GOD" are both idiots.

Citizen Nothing|12.11.08 @ 10:55AM|#

"The US killed far more than Che"

USA! USA!
USA RULZ!

|12.11.08 @ 10:55AM|#

To Dello (above lol) a real quote ...

"There was no person more feared by the company than Che Guevara because he had the capacity and charisma necessary to direct the struggle against the political repression of the traditional hierarchies in power in the countries of Latin America." --- Philip Agee, CIA Agent

Dello|12.11.08 @ 10:57AM|#

J sub D,
"Documented shackled slave rape also seems to be missing."

I can recommend a few good clubs for this around the Northwest, if you're looking...

Kyle|12.11.08 @ 10:57AM|#

"One of the 20th centuries greatest philosophical minds ... or an imbittered Cuban Jazz musician ???"

Complimenting a friend/acquaintance is hardly objective. What seems lost in this somewhat disappointing discussion is that there is a critical difference between Che as a person and Che as a symbol.

As a person, most would agree his words generally tracked his actions, which is an admirable trait. But, his words also tracked his ideas, which have been fairly thoroughly discredited.

As a symbol, he represents revolution, change, and idealism. These are worthwhile ideas, even for a libertarian. It is a moving picture that is so often worn- and that symbol has come to mean something entirely different than what the man himself stood for.

Compare to the christian cross- at different time, a symbol of the violence of the crusades, the evil of the inquisition, or the care of an aid worker. People project their own idealism on to the symbol to make it their own.

So, stop bitching. The guy was a nut, but an idealistic revolutionary is going to play well to college freshman and holly-tards no matter what the ideas behind it.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 10:58AM|#

Your mad dash to the Wikipedia and related sources in order to explain, justify, or otherwise harmonize killing people with your vision of Washington as a hero

Lamar, you're the one who freakin' linked to Wikipedia in the first place!!!.

I went over there, checked it out to verify what you were saying was correct, and guess what? It wasn't!

There was no "mad dash" on my part. There was an unfounded assertion on your part, followed by a link to Wikipedia (again, by you), followed by both Epi and I looking at it and going "nope. You're filled with fecal matter"

Dello|12.11.08 @ 10:59AM|#

Scarface,

Wow! He WAS pretty fly...!

Dello|12.11.08 @ 11:01AM|#

Kyle,
"So, stop bitching. The guy was a nut, but an idealistic revolutionary is going to play well to college freshman and holly-tards no matter what the ideas behind it."

And he might even get you laid...

|12.11.08 @ 11:02AM|#

To me Che Guevara is one of the most heroic figures in world history who is a stoic example of what all those who speak of "revolution" should espouse to be.

This was a man who left a bourgeoisie comfortable life of the upper class, a potential well compensated career as a medical doctor, and a high regarded governmental position --- each time to slog through the jungle and fight guerrilla wars against impenetrable odds = for a better and more equitable society.

I find his life not only fascinating but deeply inspiring.

Guevara despite his crippling and acute asthma which would debilitate him almost daily to inches from death, directed "suicide squads" in the battle against the U.S. armed and backed Dictator Batista where with less than 300 men; he literally took on 10,000 Batista soldiers armed with tanks, jets, and U.S. weaponry, and came out victorious at and leading up to the victory at Santa Clara.

In Bolivia, Guevara spent almost over 1 hellish year in the festering jungle battling a disease which left his hands as mounds of swollen flesh, the fact that his allergic reaction to mosquito bites would leave walnut sized welts all over his body, kept fighting even when he was without food for nearly a month, went shoeless, without blankets, and STILL with less than 30 men took on a force of 1,800 Bolivian U.S. armed rangers with an air force, green beret advisors, and CIA technology. Despite these odds Guevara's men killed 30 Bolivian troops before they even lost their first Guerrilla. Moreover, displaying his character, despite all these hardships, when Guevara could have simply taken the food of Bolivian campesinos to eat, he insisted on paying for everything.

Throughout his life Che tended to thousands of sick campesinos, helped construct dozens of schools throughout Cuba, worked in a Leper colony to helped those afflicted, and even when he was literally tied up in a small mud school house awaiting his own execution ! , still complained to the local teacher that in a nation where the leaders drove Mercedes … it was a travesty that the peasants were taught in a dilapidated place like he was in.

Although I don't believe in religious dogma (neither did Che), and view myself as an atheist, I do find it telling that the person Che was so often compared to by those who knew him was Jesus Christ. Because of his implacable character, unbending morals, and innate desire to fight in favor of the afflicted, I think that those who knew him were left with no other figure to compare him to.

Was he perfect? Of course not. No human is. But in mind he was awfully close considering the circumstances and cards he was dealt. I also find it telling that the best "canard" his detractors and those propagandists of monopoly capitalism can come up with - was his short stint at La Cabana prison. Where Che simply reviewed the cases and convictions of war criminals convicted by revolutionary tribunal (modeled after Nuremburg). The same secret police and Batista backed torturers that killed 20,000 people and tortured tens of thousands more. The fact that Che saw to it that justice was delivered cold to the Cuban people to me only makes him more heroic. He knew that a "pedagogy of the wall" was the only thing that could cleanse a society from the thousands of goons who raped and terrorized it with impunity.

Yet I'm amazed how people apply some sort of "perfectionist" fallacy to Guevara or more foolishly overlook his heroism on the basis of the fact that Capitalists profit from his defiant image. This is exactly what the capitalist vampires want. They will take every hero of the toilers and the left and revise them into "terrorists" … they will take every noble guerrilla who fought against imperialism and craft them into "mad men" so as to make you think that heroism and socialism/Marxism etc are antithetical concepts. If this doesn't work … the Capitalist/Imperialists will try to make real heroes into caricatures, or "de-fanged" banal symbols of popular culture - so as to "devalue" their serious and conceptual analysis on behalf of the working class. Thus Che dawns a bikini, Mao dawns a purse, and Lenin dawns your Zippo lighter.

I would implore those who give credence to the idea of a "revolution" … to give much deserved recognition to one of the few men in the past century who literally threw aside "the arm chair" and went out to (imperfectly) create it.

If the world had 100 Che's … or hell even 10 … we would be in much better shape.

Hasta la Victoria Siempre !

|12.11.08 @ 11:02AM|#

Pooh has done bad things. He eats too much honey and sometimes forgets appointments.

Stalin did some bad things. He killed millions of peasants and ganged up with the Nazis for fun.

Morally equivalent!

|12.11.08 @ 11:03AM|#

For those making comparisons between Washington and Che,

Washington was like a lot of people, a flawed human being who because of necessity, practicality, or circumstance, couldn't always live up to his ideals of liberty. Most of the founders fall into this category as well. If you expect perfection out of a human being your going to be looking a long time. It's best to take what good stuff you can and try not to make their mistakes.

What I've read of Che, which admittedly is not exactly comprehensive, he strikes me as someone in the same vein of the less reputable African mercenaries in the 60s and 70s who routinely overthrew their employers. Someone who's goal isn't the result of the fight, but the fight itself. Che just used communism as his excuse instead of money. So it does not surprise me that he left Cuba due to the "stifling bureaucracy." It's no fun killing people by signing bits of paper. So as a murderous thug he lived up to his own ideals quite well.

|12.11.08 @ 11:05AM|#

I wonder who linked here.

|12.11.08 @ 11:06AM|#

Pooh has done bad things. He eats too much honey and sometimes forgets appointments.

If the world had 100 Poohs … or hell even 10 … we would be in much better shape.

Hasta la Miel Siempre!

|12.11.08 @ 11:06AM|#

TAO: Fecal matter? Washington signed a statement saying that he killed Jumonville. Are you denying that? During peace time, Washington's men attacked a French squad, then they killed their leader after he surrendered. Washington was captured a month later and signed a statement that he killed Jumonville. Justified or not, those are the bare facts.

A more colored version

More documentation of historical fact you are bent on denying.

Just like to say your inability to accept historical facts is proving my 10:53 post beyond my wildest expectations.

Xeones|12.11.08 @ 11:06AM|#

The ideas Washington fought for led to more freedom in the world. The ideas Guevara fought for lead to demonstrably less freedom in the world. So, fuck Guevara.

|12.11.08 @ 11:09AM|#

I am getting the feeling Lamar really doesn't like "the father of our country". Who also had wooden teeth.

Jordan|12.11.08 @ 11:09AM|#

So the appearance of Che iconography is not meant by the people wearing it to be an endorsement of Castroism, but of some vague, ephemeral version of socialist revolution that is supposed to stand in contrast to Castro.

Yeah right. Most of these fuckwits couldn't tell you anything beyond the guy's name.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 11:10AM|#

Washington signed a statement saying that he killed Jumonville. Are you denying that?

No. I'm also "not denying" that your own link seems to indicate that Washington either was A) forced to sign it or B) didn't know what he was signing because he didn't speak French.

During peace time, Washington's men attacked a French squad, then they killed their leader after he surrendered.

Who killed him again? According to your own link, Tanacharison killed Jumonville.

Washington was captured a month later and signed a statement that he killed Jumonville.

And, again, due the coercive nature of that signing and the language barrier, the veracity of that document is in heavy doubt.

Yeah, you're full of it, dude.

|12.11.08 @ 11:11AM|#

joe,

I wonder who linked here.

I imagine, much like the Catholic Church, that Che-fans monitor the entire internet for critical blog posts so that they can whine. (Much like the last three surviving supporters of Bush who haunt Kos.)

"The Motorcycle Diaries" imdb page had a huge and hilarious slugfest over Che when the movie came out, but they've deleted it.

|12.11.08 @ 11:11AM|#

What if he wasn't a beautiful, brown-eyed, black-hearted, rebel boy? What if he was Aaron Neville?

|12.11.08 @ 11:12AM|#

Washington and Guevara are in no way moral equivalents. I only highlighted the Jumonville Affair because I suspected somebody would engage in the very same justifications that they so despise in Che lovers. TAO took the bait.

Episiarch: You are right the history disputes whether Washington himself or one of his men actually killed Jumonville. Washington signed a confession, but we all know the value in that. But let's not forget the fact that Washington ordered the attack in the first place. Washington wrote a letter to his brother after the battle: "I can with truth assure you, I heard bullets whistle and believe me, there was something charming in the sound."

|12.11.08 @ 11:14AM|#

TAO: Well done. You've gone to great lengths to focus on whether Washington himself murdered the leader of all the men his unit had just killed! If Washington himself didn't "murder" Jumonville, then he is absolved of killing the rest of the French. Good show.

Now, imagine you love Che, and are willing to go to such great lengths to justify his brutality....

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 11:14AM|#

I suspected somebody would engage in the very same justifications that they so despise in Che lovers. TAO took the bait.

What bait? You said some bullshit about Washington and got called on it.

Wow, you sure *got* me. Good job, guy. No, really, you got me, I swear.

|12.11.08 @ 11:15AM|#

Any moderately-informed person will acknowledge the atrocities sanctioned by the US in Latin America (Reagan backed Contra Death Squads anyone) and, therefore, the legitimacy of the goal of overthrowing blood-thirsty dictators installed by the US.

There's a reason that Meyer Lansky (the famed mobster) chose Havana, Cuba - under Batista to be his home. 1950's Cuba was the "pleasure Island" for rich white Americans to go get buy some Spanish-lolita poonanny & gamble alongside Frank Sinatra (a regular).

Then poor CHE wrecked all the fun ... boooo !

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 11:15AM|#

You've gone to great lengths to focus on whether Washington himself murdered the leader of all the men his unit had just killed!

You called him a murderer, so I thought it might be relevant to focus on, y'know, whether or not he actually murdered somebody.

But keep going Lamar...you really *got* me sooooo goooood. Call your mom and tell her.

Elemenope|12.11.08 @ 11:16AM|#

Volunteer army

meaning voluntary

as in you have the right to walk away at anytime

also known as desertion

As soon as desertion becomes a crime the army can no longer be classed a volunteer army

By your reasoning Gerorge Orwell should have been shot for leaving a volunteer army

Wow, just wow.

When one voluntarily agrees to take on a certain responsibility, it does not follow that the person can simply at any time convenient abrogate that responsibility. If you sign up for a three-year tour and you skedaddle without leave before your three years are up you can, and should, be punished.

Can at least one of the many, many military and former military folks on this site chime in here at any point?

|12.11.08 @ 11:17AM|#

Wait a second, did Che carry a rifle in the firing squad?

Or was that his men?

|12.11.08 @ 11:18AM|#

Whoops, sorry. See Baby Selling thread.

|12.11.08 @ 11:18AM|#

What if he wasn't a beautiful, brown-eyed, black-hearted, rebel boy? What if he was Aaron Neville?

What if he was Robert Neville? He is Legend, after all.

|12.11.08 @ 11:18AM|#

George Washington OWNED hundreds of Slaves that he purchased as property !

Yet "Libertarians" defend him and the other founders ... while bashing CHE

... 'Real Men of Genius' alright :o)

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 11:19AM|#

El - I got this.

When people contract with the military, they agree to a certain set of terms and conditions. Among these are yielding to complete governance by the UCMJ.

If you volunteer to join the military, and the military has a law that says "No desertion during wartime, lest ye be shot", you are volunteering to be subject to that law for a set number of years. Ergo, if you desert, you are subject to that punishment, by your own volition and free will.

|12.11.08 @ 11:20AM|#

TAO: Look what I said: "No American hero ever presided over an extra judicial execution?" and "What makes you so sure Washington wasn't an admitted murderer?"

As you can see, I took great pains to avoid calling Washington a murderer. Some historians say it was murder, others do not. Some say it matters that somebody else may have done the deed, others say it was an execution. But you've gone on and on to defend the killing of people during a time of peace, yet you fail to understand why others would do the same.

I don't know if it was a murder most foul, but let's not pretend Washington didn't like the smell of napalm in the morning.

|12.11.08 @ 11:20AM|#

Whoops, sorry. See Baby Selling thread.

Exactly what I was thinking of, d00d.

|12.11.08 @ 11:21AM|#

Any moderately-informed person will acknowledge the atrocities sanctioned by the US in Latin America (Reagan backed Contra Death Squads anyone) and, therefore, the legitimacy of the goal of overthrowing blood-thirsty dictators installed by the US.

See, this is what drives me nuts with these kinds of discussions. You argue that some left-wing nut job is evil because he killed countless innocent people, and the response is, "well, so did some right-wingers!" This may be hard to understand, but some of us are against killing innocent people not because the killers have a right-wing ideology or a left-wing ideology but because they're fucking killing innocent people. The fact that somebody else may have been doing it as well is irrelevant.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 11:23AM|#

But you've gone on and on to defend the killing of people during a time of peace

I did? Where?

wifebeater|12.11.08 @ 11:23AM|#

Sartre was an inspiration to me as well.

|12.11.08 @ 11:23AM|#

1950's Cuba was the "pleasure Island" for rich white Americans to go get buy some Spanish-lolita poonanny & gamble alongside Frank Sinatra (a regular).

You have to admit that does sound pretty great.

"Three coins in a fountain..."

Mister DNA|12.11.08 @ 11:25AM|#

Fuck it. I'm buying a Thomas Paine t-shirt.

|12.11.08 @ 11:25AM|#

Anyone with military leadership training will immediately understand Che's actions as a warrior (even though I dispise his ideology).

As a matter of fact, his manual on "Guerrilla Warfare" has been studied by both the C.I.A. and the Army (I was assigned it in Officers school). Not to mention that Guevara's 'Guerrilla Warfare' was the main manual for the Viet Cong who at worst fought the U.S. (and are moronic capitulating govt) to a stand still.

I have no desire to argue about Che 'the man', but Che the military tactician was a strategic genius in many respects.

Seward|12.11.08 @ 11:25AM|#

Carlos/Miami,

I don't see any important, significant, etc. reason to defend either Castro or Batista. I certainly don't see Castro's Cuba being an improvement on Batista's.

|12.11.08 @ 11:26AM|#

But both Stalin's and Mao's body count exceeded Hitler's and yet Hitler is the one who is most often offered up as the very epitome of evil.

Locking people in prison and starving them to death while picking some of them off if they get too unruly is an abomination. Starting factories which are dedicated entirely to the murder of human beings, 18 hours a day, seven days a week...that's something beyond. Reading about the way that places like Treblinka actually worked and were set up to be well-oiled murder machines is one of the best ways to understand why it is that the Nazis have a special place in the imagination.

|12.11.08 @ 11:27AM|#

Fuck it. I'm buying a Thomas Paine t-shirt.

Not this one, dude? I'm disappointed.

|12.11.08 @ 11:28AM|#

One man's Superman is another man's Benedict Arnold

|12.11.08 @ 11:29AM|#

"But you've gone on and on to defend the killing of people during a time of peace"

You aren't defending Washington's actions? I guess I misunderstood. At least you equally condemn Washington and Guevara as killers of men during peace time.

|12.11.08 @ 11:29AM|#

TAO: Your mad dash to the Wikipedia and related sources in order to explain, justify, or otherwise harmonize killing people with your vision of Washington as a hero should enlighten you to how people explain, justify or otherwise harmonize killing people with their vision of Che as a hero.

I only went there because of a link that you posted a,d later called to my attention.

Still we are stalled at
No likee, no believee.

Abdul|12.11.08 @ 11:29AM|#

There's a reason that Meyer Lansky (the famed mobster) chose Havana, Cuba - under Batista to be his home. 1950's Cuba was the "pleasure Island" for rich white Americans to go get buy some Spanish-lolita poonanny & gamble alongside Frank Sinatra (a regular).

Good thing Che put a stop to the whoring! That's probably why Sinatra doesn't go there anymore.

Seward|12.11.08 @ 11:30AM|#

Carlos/Miami,

I'll take a rule utilitarian tack and state that with the fruits that the revolution in the U.S. produced it is somewhat easier to defend Washington than it is to defend Che or communists in general.

|12.11.08 @ 11:31AM|#

"Are We Not On A T-Shirt?"

|12.11.08 @ 11:32AM|#

to Seward

I don't defend Castro either. But I admire Che (whose been dead for 41 of the 50 years since the Cuban Revolution).

Che should not be used as a scapegoat. He was an imperfect brave man who picked up a gun several times and risked his life to overthrow corrupt dictators (Batista, Mobutu, Barrientos) that is admirable, despite the fact that Castro became one himself.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 11:33AM|#

At least you equally condemn Washington and Guevara as killers of men during peace time.

What planet are you on? As far as your source is telling me, the events went like this:

1. Some French soldiers drove out CPT Trent.
2. More French soldiers approached Washington to tell him to get the hell on.
3. Some citizen of the territory said that the French were attacking his house.
4. Washington attacked the French.

Leo|12.11.08 @ 11:33AM|#

Nelson Mandela referred to him as "an inspiration for every human being who loves freedom". This site should be renamed idiot.com.

|12.11.08 @ 11:34AM|#

"No likee, no believee."

You have to believee. I believe that Washington's actions were justified and akin to wartime actions. But I am an American, and I justify the dirty deeds of our heroes.

Seward|12.11.08 @ 11:35AM|#

Shem,

Closing the borders to the Ukraine and purposefully starving people to death seems about as bad as creating industrialized murder to me. Indeed, it could be considered more horrifying because at least the industrially murdered were murdered quickly. BTW, the latter is the reason why they (the Nazis) created the industrialized death system that they did. Rounding up and shooting thousands of Jews, etc. was just too disturbing and too harmful to morale (indeed, Himmler got physically ill when he witnessed such an event).

|12.11.08 @ 11:35AM|#

TAO: That was ironic. Everything you've written so far has been an explanation of why killing the French was not a bad thing.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 11:36AM|#

I'm sorry, Lamar, but where did you prove that the "deeds" done by Washington were "dirty", again?

Anyway, I want this pic on a T-shirt.

|12.11.08 @ 11:38AM|#

I'm sorry. I should have said that I justify the peace time killing of men which is in no way dirty because I have justified it.

|12.11.08 @ 11:38AM|#

Killing is dirty business no matter how justified.

Seward|12.11.08 @ 11:39AM|#

Carlos/Miami,

If Che had overthrown the governments in the Congo, Bolivia, etc. what would they look like today? Would they be dictatorships?

Mister DNA|12.11.08 @ 11:40AM|#

Epi, I've got this one, only it's white, and the "DEVO" is in the classic red/green/yellow/purple letters.

I'm looking for the one that has "DEVO" with the AC/DC lettering.

GG|12.11.08 @ 11:40AM|#

Killer Chic: Hollywood's Sick Love Affair with Che Guevara

Fashions for the Ignorant Celebrity

"The difference between Che Guevara and Pol Pot was that Guevara never studied in Paris."
--Anthony Daniels

I imagine, much like the Catholic Church, that Che-fans monitor the entire internet for critical blog posts so that they can whine.

Even so, this thread is incomplete without a visit from the Urkobold.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 11:40AM|#

Killing is dirty business no matter how justified.

THAT'S been your point the entire time?

Thanks for the insight, Dalai.

|12.11.08 @ 11:41AM|#

It's also interesting to note the Che racially integrated all the schools in Cuba, years before blacks and white kids could even share a water fountain or swimming pool in the U.S. South.

Some historical perspective would be nice.

HYF|12.11.08 @ 11:43AM|#

if you think healthcare is expensive now, wait until it's free!

Daniel Lynch|12.11.08 @ 11:43AM|#

Perhaps the way to look at Che and Mao on capitalist t-shirts is to see it as their total capitulation. Icons of the Communist fury emblazoned across capitalist wares is, I would argue, the ultimate boot rubbed in their face.

Should Mao and Che be banned from public display to the same degree as Hitler? Perhaps it should be in reverse -- perhaps the best way to discredit Hitler and Nazism is to put Hitler's image on plastic objects pressed in China, on the retail shelf next to Hello Kitty, Mao, Martha Stewart and Che. Un-banning the icons of the Nasties is the best way to discredit them, by turning them into meaningless banality.

Mister DNA|12.11.08 @ 11:45AM|#

Anyway, I want this pic on a T-shirt.

"¡Hasta La Autopsia Siempre!"

Seward|12.11.08 @ 11:45AM|#

Carlos/Miami,

It is also interesting to note that the Cuban government expropriated nearly all private land within a year or two of coming to power. Talk about an attack on freedom.

|12.11.08 @ 11:45AM|#

"THAT'S been your point the entire time?"

No, my point is that you justify and defend Washington's killings or murders, yet take Che to task for them. In short, you are a big fat hypocrite.

Jose Marti|12.11.08 @ 11:46AM|#

George Washington worked toward the establishment of the United States, a pretty successful experiment in providing a place where people could enjoy life, liberty and the pursuit of hapiness. This is NOT to gloss over the grotesque sins committed by some Americans either independently or in the name of the USA. We can all pick a list of US perpetrators, however, I think most of us living here would admit that it's a pretty good place to live and exercise our conscience.

Che however represents the farcical world envisioned by many revolutionaries that "once we get rid of all the baddies, we'll usher in a new age of peace, love and inderstanding." Of course, when they realize that this will only be accomplished by the force of guns, they either rationalize it or try to forget about it by running away like Che and trying anew in a new place to set up the same farce.

Che isn't so despicable because of his body count, he is despicable because he represents this quixotic bullshit story that only right-wing oligarchs are evil. All oligarchies are evil. And unfortunately shitty commie oligarchies are all communists can provide to replace shitty right-wing oligarchies.And yes his iconification cements this idiot idea in voters heads.

Xeones|12.11.08 @ 11:48AM|#

Right on, Jose.

|12.11.08 @ 11:48AM|#

Well, big fat hypocrite is too strong. What I mean is that you take a hard-line position against Che lovers while overlooking similar flaws in your own heroes. Pretty predictable actually.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 11:50AM|#

You have yet to establish the flaw you claimed existed, Lamar.

What did Washington do wrong at Jamonville?

Your constant attempts to draw equivalence and falling fucking flat.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 11:51AM|#

in other words, you said that what Washington did was *justified*, meaning it cannot, by definition, have been morally wrong or flawed.

|12.11.08 @ 11:51AM|#

Epi, I've got this one, only it's white, and the "DEVO" is in the classic red/green/yellow/purple letters

Not bad. I should get one, but it has to be perfect. I'll know it if I see it.

I do have this, though.

Seward|12.11.08 @ 11:54AM|#

Anyway, we've probably squeezed out of this topic about as much as we are going to.

|12.11.08 @ 11:55AM|#

There are only about 5-6 definitive and documentable stories of Che actually executing anyone with his own gun.

There were:
- A man under his command that fell asleep while on guard duty
- Eutimo Guerra a peasant guide who was found to be a traitor who kept giving away their position to Batista's forces
- A local mayor that raped a young peasant girl
- One of his own men who raped some campesino women
- And a few deserters that fled during combat leaving his units flank vulnerable.

All of these are acceptable and understandable under his circumstance.

|12.11.08 @ 11:56AM|#

Anyway, I want this pic on a T-shirt. (Link goes to picture of a military officer poking at a corpse.

Killing is dirty business no matter how justified.

One of these people sees even the most necessary killings as regrettable.

One of them thinks it's wicked awesome when da bad guyz get all shotted up. A Keyboard Kommando, so speak.

|12.11.08 @ 11:56AM|#

TAO: I can't continue this. Washington did nothing wrong at Jumonville because you have justified it (after first not even knowing about it - that was a quick study!!). To the minds of Che lovers, they have justified Che's killing of people. Whether the people are innocent, or deserved to die, it part of the justification.

You justify Washington's executions, others justify Che's executions. I suspect it has everything to do with the last paragraph in Jose Marti's post at 11:46.

|12.11.08 @ 11:58AM|#

Let's put Milton Friedman on a T-shirt !

on second thought let's not

he looked like a douche

Egosumabbas|12.11.08 @ 11:59AM|#

Well, it seems that Washington wasn't an executioner:

"After the firing had stopped, Jumonville handed Washington some papers and insisted that he read them. While Washington did so, Tanacharison came up and smashed Jumonville's skull with a tomahawk, killing him.[3]"

D'oh! Bummer dudes, it looks like Che is still an evil douche.

|12.11.08 @ 12:00PM|#

How many people that bash Che, have ever read his own diaries ?

I would guess very few.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 12:00PM|#

One of them thinks it's wicked awesome when da bad guyz get all shotted up. A Keyboard Kommando, so speak.

If you have something to say to me, joe, say it directly and knock off the passive-aggressive simpering.

No, joe, I am not sad when people who need to die, die.

And what does "Keyboard Kommando" mean? Define that term, please.

|12.11.08 @ 12:00PM|#

On Stalin and Mao vs. Hitler: Hitler was in power for 12 years. His wars and the Holocaust lasted 6. In his military adventures, he was held in check and defeated.

Between the revolution and his rule, Mao had about twice as long. Nobody stopped him.

Stalin began his career as a revolutionary about 40 years before he died in office. Once again, nobody stopped him.

Can you imagine what Hitler's body count would be if he'd had 40 years? Or if he'd succeeded in World War 2?

This "worse than Hitler" line is nonsense. I can buy "equivalent," but the only reason Hitler's body count didn't surpass Mao's and Stalin's was because he lost, and they won.

Egosumabbas|12.11.08 @ 12:01PM|#

"Let's put Milton Friedman on a T-shirt !"

I saw a friend of mine wearing a Rothbard T-shirt that said under it "Enemy of the State". It was glorious.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 12:01PM|#

after first not even knowing about it - that was a quick study!!

Where did I say I didn't know about it?

Mister DNA|12.11.08 @ 12:02PM|#

Epi, how about this? A DEVO license plate frame. I think I know what I'm getting myself for Christmas...

Egosumabbas|12.11.08 @ 12:03PM|#

"How many people that bash Che, have ever read his own diaries ?

I would guess very few."

Yes, they're full of statements on how he relished butchering his captives. My favorite quote:

"I ended the problem with a .32 caliber pistol, in the right side of his brain.... His belongings were now mine."

|12.11.08 @ 12:03PM|#

Let's not forget that Che visited Hiroshima after the U.S. had nuked the place (to impress the Soviets).

He saw first hand the "spoils" of spoils of American liberty ... and was thus willing to give Uncle Sam a taste of his own medicine during the Cuban missiles crisis.

The Ghost of Posts Past|12.11.08 @ 12:05PM|#

What A Shock! | December 11, 2008, 8:28am | #

joe defends communist totalitarians and the people who love them. come on, joe, tell us how the bullet to the head not so bad as long as a champion of the people is holding the gun.

"This "worse than Hitler" line is nonsense. I can buy "equivalent," but the only reason Hitler's body count didn't surpass Mao's and Stalin's was because he lost, and they won."

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 12:05PM|#

joe, you going to back up that "Keyboard Kommando" remark?

|12.11.08 @ 12:05PM|#

If you have something to say to me, joe, say it directly and knock off the passive-aggressive simpering.

OK. You're one of those sick internet tuff guyz who gets off on politicized death porn, like when the National Review writer responded to the Abu Ghraib photos with "Good job, kick one for me."

No, joe, I am not sad when people who need to die, die. There are a lot of things I'm "not sad" about that I don't want to put on a tee shirt, either.

You don't look at death as a necessary evil. You think it's awesome, and I don't just disagree with you, but I think less of you as a person for it. Is that direct enough, asshole?

The contrast with Lamar's expression of decency cried out for commentary.

|12.11.08 @ 12:05PM|#

BTW, you don't know what the word "simpering" means.

|12.11.08 @ 12:07PM|#

You know who is worse than Hitler, Stalin, and Mao combined? Gaius fucking Baltar, that's who. 20 billion dead makes the other guys look like amateurs.

Epi, how about this? A DEVO license plate frame. I think I know what I'm getting myself for Christmas...

Excellent.

Egosumabbas|12.11.08 @ 12:07PM|#

Hey look, another quote from Che's precious diary:

"We don't need proof to execute a man. We only need proof that it's necessary to execute him. A revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate."

|12.11.08 @ 12:08PM|#

If I were trying to argue that "Hitler's body count was lower than it would have been because he was defeated" was a defense of a mass murderer, I wouldln't put my name on it, either.

Hell, I wouldn't even use a handle that could be recognized.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 12:10PM|#

yes, I do. You simper. You just pretend like you're being tough about it.

You don't look at death as a necessary evil.

There is no such thing as a necessary evil, joe. Something that is necessary must be good.

You think it's awesome

For some people, yes. You think I am less of a person because some people need to die and I am glad when those terrible people do, in fact, die?

That's fine. You can adhere to that squishy moral subjectivism all you like. It makes you soft-headed, but whatever.

You're one of those sick internet tuff guyz

Look who's talking.

|12.11.08 @ 12:10PM|#

The Angry Optimist | December 11, 2008, 12:05pm | #

joe, you going to back up that "Keyboard Kommando" remark?

A Keyboard Kommando is someone who sits at his keyboard and writes about how awesome shooting people is.

IE, you. Put that on a tee shirt, asshole.

|12.11.08 @ 12:12PM|#

sim⋅per   /ˈsɪmpər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [sim-per]

-verb (used without object) 1. to smile in a silly, self-conscious way.
-verb (used with object) 2. to say with a simper.
-noun 3. a silly, self-conscious smile.

It sort of sounds like whimper, with the initial sound of snivel, but guess what? That's not what it means.

You're welcome.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 12:12PM|#

I don't think shooting people is awesome, you fucking loony toon. I do think it's awesome when people who are muderous sons-of-bitches die.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 12:14PM|#

huh, you're right. I had the wrong definition in my head.

Thanks!

You're still a fucking prick.

|12.11.08 @ 12:14PM|#

i find it amazing that people are still willing to gripe and crap about this guy when he's been dead for 40 frick'in years!
grief, grow up and get a life people. who cares?

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 12:15PM|#

Apparently it's ok to worship murderous assholes by glorifying them on T-Shirts, but heaven forbid you be happy that some murderous asshole is dead.

|12.11.08 @ 12:16PM|#

A decent human being thinks it's regrettably necessary when a murderous son of a bitch is killed.

It's necessary for animals to be killed to feed people. I don't gloat over their corpses, either.

I remember being a teen-aged boy. Life is cheap to teen-aged boys.

Maybe I'm being to harsh, and you just need to grow up.

|12.11.08 @ 12:18PM|#

The Angry Optimist | December 11, 2008, 12:15pm | #

Apparently it's ok to worship murderous assholes by glorifying them on T-Shirts, but heaven forbid you be happy that some murderous asshole is dead.

The people who wear Che tee-shirts are just ignorant, thinking he represents revolution without the killing. Or, at worst, they're willing to accept the killing an necessary for a greater good.

I've never seen anyone pine for a tee-shirt with a Batista secret policeman's corpse on it.

|12.11.08 @ 12:19PM|#

Hold on, hoss. Baltar only negligently contributed to the deaths of 20 billion people.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 12:19PM|#

I'm not a teenager, and I don't need to be talked down to an Internet Warrior who routinely talks about "kicking ass" as it pertains to these here discussion boards.

A decent human being thinks it's regrettably necessary when a murderous son of a bitch is killed.

No, a decent human being *pretends* that it was regrettably necessary. If you think I believe for one second that your reaction at the news of Osama Bin Laden's death will be "Oh boy, that's sad that he had to die", I'll call you a liar and you will be a liar.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 12:20PM|#

I've never seen anyone pine for a tee-shirt with a Batista secret policeman's corpse on it.

Sure. If people want to wear it, that wouldn't bother me in the slightest, but it certainly would not be recognizable to 99% of people walking around, whereas "Che" is iconic and I wouldn't mind a shirt that was happy that that murderous icon died.

MNG|12.11.08 @ 12:21PM|#

"Something that is necessary must be good."

TAO
I'd love to see you flesh out that argument...

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 12:22PM|#

MNG - I'd love to see you present an argument against it before I just go spouting off.

|12.11.08 @ 12:23PM|#

If your going to wear a Che shirt ironically, just get the www.thedissidentfrogman.com version. Its che with mickey ears. Close enough to rile up the idiots thinking your a fan, until they ask and you point out the obvious, and funny to the people who know.

MNG|12.11.08 @ 12:24PM|#

"If you think I believe for one second that your reaction at the news of Osama Bin Laden's death will be "Oh boy, that's sad that he had to die", I'll call you a liar and you will be a liar."

TAO
You're such a miserable human being full of youthful and unwarranted self confidence and confidence in your chosen ideology that you often have trouble seeing what others opposing you are getting at, so let me help: what people are getting at here is that if you were the one killing Osama bin Laden, while his death is certainly warranted if you did it with glee and were happy about it like "wow, that was GREAT when I killed him" then something is wrong with you regardless of how evil the guy was and how much a better place the world is because you did that.

|12.11.08 @ 12:24PM|#

Hold on, hoss. Baltar only negligently contributed to the deaths of 20 billion people.

Why am I not surprised that you are an apologist for cylon-wing mass murderers?

MNG|12.11.08 @ 12:25PM|#

Oh no TAO, it was you that threw out such a broad stupid statement. Go ahead, tell us what the hell was meant by it. I haven't had my laugh for today

|12.11.08 @ 12:26PM|#

I don't need to be talked down to an Internet Warrior who routinely talks about "kicking ass" as it pertains to these here discussion boards.

I use the term as a metaphor, to refer to winning an argument.

You want to gloat over a picture of a military officer poking at a human corpse.

I think you rather obviously need to be talked down.

Now watch this:

Something that is necessary must be good. - TAO

We don't need proof to execute a man. We only need proof that it's necessary to execute him. - Che

None of that bougeois morality for The Angry Optimist.

|12.11.08 @ 12:30PM|#

Egosumabbas forgot to quote Che when he said:

"At the risk of seeming ridiculous, let me say that the true revolutionary is guided by a great feeling of love. It is impossible to think of a genuine revolutionary lacking this quality... We must strive every day so that this love of living humanity will be transformed into actual deeds, into acts that serve as examples, as a moving force."


El Che Vive Puta !

|12.11.08 @ 12:31PM|#

Seward-

It's hard to argue about which is worse, because the sort of atrocity that make a person wonder if there's any hope for the species. My point is that it's not the numbers that have created Hitler's enduring legacy, it was the mechanization of his mass-murder. Starvation, even on such a massive scale, just doesn't have the same shocking power that hearing about people being herded into gas chambers, then tossed into crematoria (while their friends and neighbors either look the other way or help the process along) does. I believe that, more than anything, is the reason why we don't hear about the crimes of Stalin or Mao.

|12.11.08 @ 12:31PM|#

Apologist? Tell me how Baltar was supposed to know that Number Six wasn't some industrial spy but, in fact, a Cylon supermodel bent on the destruction of the human race?

Seward|12.11.08 @ 12:31PM|#

joe,

Between the revolution and his rule, Mao had about twice as long. Nobody stopped him.

Actually, they did. The U.S. and its allies spent a lot of resources containing China within its current borders. Indeed, the Chinese tried to break out of those borders on a number of occassions, but was ineffectual in doing so.

Stalin began his career as a revolutionary about 40 years before he died in office. Once again, nobody stopped him.

A lot of resources and nations were arrayed against the expansion of the Soviet Union from the 1920s onward, though which nations were in the forefront of that changed over time. Stalin's whole "socialism in one country" was merely a tactic to build up the regime there; once he had an oppurtunity (the pact with the Nazis, etc.) he jumped on it. Indeed, one could cogently argue that it was the Nazis that stopped Soviet expansion for a time.

|12.11.08 @ 12:31PM|#

For all your 'Che Quote' needs ...

WIKIQUOTE

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Che_Guevara

.|12.11.08 @ 12:32PM|#

Sheesh, I go away for a couple of hours and lo! A joe vs. the world free-for-all ensues.
What are the chances?

|12.11.08 @ 12:32PM|#

Hold on, hoss. Baltar only negligently contributed to the deaths of 20 billion people.

Why am I not surprised that you are an apologist for cylon-wing mass murderers?

What? You wouldn't kill 20 billion people to sleep with Cylon 6? What are you gay?

Seward|12.11.08 @ 12:33PM|#

Shem,

...just doesn't have the same shocking power that hearing about people being herded into gas chambers...

It does to me. I nearly was momentarily physically ill the first time I read about the government orchestrated starvation in the Ukraine.

|12.11.08 @ 12:33PM|#

"If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine." ---Che Guevara

Ska|12.11.08 @ 12:34PM|#

My favorite Che shirt is the one of Cornelius from Planet of the Apes.

|12.11.08 @ 12:35PM|#

Most of this video seems to be plagiarized with no credit given ...

CHE GUEVARA IN POPULAR CULTURE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara_in_popular_culture

|12.11.08 @ 12:37PM|#

"He looked a lot like Che Guevara
Drove a diesel van
Kept his gun in quiet seclusion
Such a humble man."

- David Bowie, 'Panic in Detroit'

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 12:37PM|#

what people are getting at here is that if you were the one killing Osama bin Laden, while his death is certainly warranted if you did it with glee and were happy about it like "wow, that was GREAT when I killed him"

MNG - that isn't what the argument is about. The argument is about whether it's OK (i.e. are you still a good person and not a progressive Sinner in the eyes of Joe) to be glad that someone died. I say yes.

Both you and joe now have made some kind of "youth" reference. Sorry, Old Man Suspenderson, I'll get off your porch now.

I think you rather obviously need to be talked down.

Make an argument and get off your high horse. Or shut up.

Now, do either you or MNG have a refutation to "if something is necessary, it is good to do that thing?"

|12.11.08 @ 12:37PM|#

Apologist? Tell me how Baltar was supposed to know that Number Six wasn't some industrial spy but, in fact, a Cylon supermodel bent on the destruction of the human race?

More excuses. What next, you're going to tell us his Presidency on New Caprica was benevolent?

What? You wouldn't kill 20 billion people to sleep with Cylon 6? What are you gay?

Dude, I don't need to kill 20 billion people to bang a model.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 12:39PM|#

A. Some want to glorify Che's murderous ways, and put it on a T-Shirt.

B. Others (myself) am glad he's not alive to terrorize people anymore and see his death as a good thing. We want to put it on T-shirts, mainly to shock the doe-eyed little idiot college freshman who's sporting shirt "A".

|12.11.08 @ 12:40PM|#

"And if there's any hope for America, it lies in a revolution, and if there's any hope for a revolution in America, it lies in getting Elvis Presley to become Che Guevara."

- Phil Ochs, the liner notes of 'The Broadside Tapes'

|12.11.08 @ 12:43PM|#

Episiarch,

Again, you avoid the question. What knowledge did Baltar have of the Cylons' plans?

His presidency on New Caprica is another matter. Besides, he may be insane with the guilt from his negligence that, um, led to the deaths of 20 billion people.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 12:44PM|#

None of that bougeois morality for The Angry Optimist.

I know you're smart enough to figure out how those are different. But you're too much of an attention whore to admit they are.

|12.11.08 @ 12:47PM|#

-(TRAILER)- for the new film "Che" starring Benicio Del Toro

http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1808403435/video/10924831/

= Even for a Capitalist like me, the film looks pretty good.

Citizen Nothing|12.11.08 @ 12:50PM|#

TAO, I usually like the way you roll.
But, when it comes to joe, MGN and the like you've got to learn to just...walk...away.

It's called Hit & Run for a reason, baby.

|12.11.08 @ 12:50PM|#

i see the madness over t-shirts continues. as i said before, he's been dead for over 40 years... who cares?
on the bright side, watching this "argument" is providing me with plenty of entertainment. keep it up folks :D

Egosumabbas|12.11.08 @ 12:51PM|#

""At the risk of seeming ridiculous, let me say that the true revolutionary is guided by a great feeling of love. It is impossible to think of a genuine revolutionary lacking this quality... We must strive every day so that this love of living humanity will be transformed into actual deeds, into acts that serve as examples, as a moving force."


El Che Vive Puta !"

Well, since El Che loved murdering people, and the people he murdered are dead, it follows they can't be the living humanity he so cherished. I guess it's logically consistent.

By the way, I'm not a whore.

|12.11.08 @ 12:51PM|#

Again, you avoid the question. What knowledge did Baltar have of the Cylons' plans?

What other possible reason could there be for circumventing Colonial planetary defenses? Even if he didn't "know", he knew. Getting your knob polished by your own personal fembot skinjob is no excuse for not thinking.

Citizen Nothing|12.11.08 @ 12:51PM|#

I meant MNG, not Maryland Gridiron Network.

|12.11.08 @ 12:52PM|#

Seward-

But that's just it, you had to read about it. The stories are disturbing and terrible, but you have to read them (or better, hear them from a survivor) in order for their true horror to sink in. It's the difference between "he starved 5 million men, women and children" which combines numbers that nobody could possibly understand with a type of death that few in the modern world have any real experience with, versus "he herded 5 million people into gas chambers, then forced their relatives to drag their bodies into crematoria." One impresses it's horror on you in one sentence. One takes longer than that. It doesn't make either one less horrible, but it does explain why people who aren't educated about both don't truly understand just how bad the less shocking one is.

|12.11.08 @ 12:52PM|#

Is there really a difference between "Manifest Destiny" and the millions of Natives deaths it wrought, and Hitlers desire to take over the slavic countries ?

Other than the predictable 100 or so years (which apparently excuses the latter) :o/

Citizen Nothing|12.11.08 @ 12:52PM|#

Tee-shirt madness!
We're practically givin' 'em away!

ARE WE INSANE?!!!!!

|12.11.08 @ 12:53PM|#

What knowledge did Baltar have of the Cylons' plans?

Baltar knew that giving 6 the codes were wrong, and even got off on the "naughtiness" of it. A deliberate bump of a boulder so that it rolls through a village killing dozens is still homicide, no matter how small the bump.

The best defense he could mount would be to argue they were 20 billion negligent homicides.

|12.11.08 @ 12:53PM|#

Getting your knob polished by your own personal fembot skinjob is no excuse for not thinking.

Actually, I think that may be the dictionary definition of "not thinking".

|12.11.08 @ 12:54PM|#

was wrong... stupid fingers

Citizen Nothing|12.11.08 @ 12:54PM|#

Is there really a difference between "Manifest Destiny" ?
Anyone wearing a Custer tee is an asshole, too.

|12.11.08 @ 12:56PM|#

Egosumabbas likes his armed revolutionaries to be peaceful ...

"rain dance" ... "white chocolate"

MNG|12.11.08 @ 12:57PM|#

When most people read Old Yellow they cry at the end.

TAO said "hell yeah we killed that threatening mutt, it was necessary and therefore good!"

Citizen Nothing|12.11.08 @ 12:57PM|#

Speaking of Gaius Balter, why in the hell are they releasing season 4 AFTER Christmas?
My wife would do wonderful, unspeakable things to me if I could procure her a copy for under the Christmas tree.

cunnivore\'s paper boy|12.11.08 @ 12:57PM|#

I also always try to discharge some type of disgusting bodily fluid on Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, and Jackson's pictures on our currency, in a silent protest.

eewwww, gross, I'm telling my mommy!

|12.11.08 @ 12:58PM|#

This site is probably made of ugly old guys who wish they were as hot as Che is.

Loooosers

Citizen Nothing|12.11.08 @ 12:58PM|#

You should see what he does with the coins.

Citizen Nothing|12.11.08 @ 12:59PM|#

And Stacy is probably a fat chick who wishes guys as hot as Che would go for her.
Zing!

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 12:59PM|#

But, when it comes to joe, MNG and the like you've got to learn to just...walk...away.

I know! I know! I just can't quit their trollery!

TAO said "hell yeah we killed that threatening mutt, it was necessary and therefore good!"

Would it have been better for the dog to live?

Seward|12.11.08 @ 1:00PM|#

Shem,

Having done a fair amount of reading on what it takes to starve to death I suppose you may be right, but still, I think your average person can get their head around X million starved to death. Of course, I also find the fact that hundreds of thousands of Russians and other citizens of the Soviet Union died of starvation following the German invasion equally disturbing. They were told to walk in west and they simply died in droves on the roads over a short period of time. Illustrates how delicate life is. Then again, it takes a fairly severe crisis for people to actually die of simple starvation, as opposed to diseases associated with poor nutrition.

|12.11.08 @ 1:00PM|#

Che Guevara ……… hero, rebel, saint, icon, guerrilla, poet, politician, statesman, doctor, writer, theorist, etc etc

The right-wing dingbats wouldn't know a hero if one teabagged em.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 1:01PM|#

Stacy's probably not "fat" just yet, just one of those post-college girls who wishes they were still in a sorority, drinks too much beer and will probably end up doing amateur porn for 200 dollars.

|12.11.08 @ 1:01PM|#

So you've given up your apologia for Baltar, then, ProL? Good to see you coming to your senses.

Speaking of Gaius Balter, why in the hell are they releasing season 4 AFTER Christmas?

Because they're dicks?

|12.11.08 @ 1:01PM|#

Che Guevara is Old Yeller now? Bloody rampage through South America and Africa to install socialist governments is the same as a dog accidentally getting rabies.

Did your PhD come covered in rows of candy dots?

Seward|12.11.08 @ 1:02PM|#

Shem,

Or, to paraphrase a historian whose name I can't recall put it (it might be E.P. Thompson?), when people are "grass in the mouth" starving to death, you've got dire problems.

|12.11.08 @ 1:02PM|#

Che was not always a Communist; he was stirred to become one by the terrible circumstances & poverty he saw along his motorcycle journey around the continent.

Would any of us have become any different ? Maybe, maybe not?

|12.11.08 @ 1:03PM|#

TAO

Let me further threadjack:

Simpering - adjective from the thesaurus:affected

affected: Speaking or behaving in an artificial way to make an impression.

You gave up too easily! Let's start another 200+ post on whether you or joe were right!

Citizen Nothing|12.11.08 @ 1:03PM|#

To her credit, she was right about me wishing I were as hot as Che.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 1:03PM|#

I believe his PhD came perforated, so it would be easier to roll a J with it.

|12.11.08 @ 1:04PM|#

How about Che Guevara = Cujo? That's better, right?

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 1:04PM|#

bendover - dammit! I was right!

history minor in college|12.11.08 @ 1:05PM|#

Is there really a difference between "Manifest Destiny" and the millions of Natives deaths it wrought, and Hitlers desire to take over the slavic countries ?

I think it was the longterm planing and execution of the plan which makes Hitler worse. While millions of navajos did die, they were not directly murdered by troops whose expressed goal was to clean the area of them for a particular race to move in. Thye were not murdered in death facories where their bodies were also disposed of.

Here's a different question: if Hitler had secretly released a combined plague of depression, alcoholism, smallpox and measles on the slavs and then moved into their depopulated territories, would he still be considered the epitome of evil?

|12.11.08 @ 1:05PM|#

I have a revolutionary idea ... what say the Mets name their new ballpark Che Stadium?

|12.11.08 @ 1:07PM|#

Cujo chased a bat and got bitten. It wasn't his fault either.

|12.11.08 @ 1:09PM|#

Che Guevara ……… hero, rebel, saint, icon, guerrilla, poet, politician, statesman, doctor, writer, theorist, etc etc

The right-wing dingbats wouldn't know a hero if one teabagged em.

Okay seriously, what mouth-breathing site linked here? They can't even get their insults right.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 1:09PM|#

I believe Che Guevara is actually Christine. Or maybe Carrie?

|12.11.08 @ 1:10PM|#

Fine, jerk. Che = Christine? Che = Pennywise? Che = Leland Gaunt?

|12.11.08 @ 1:11PM|#

Ahh, fuck you TAO!

The right-wing dingbats wouldn't know a hero if one teabagged em.

Okay seriously, what mouth-breathing site linked here? They can't even get their insults right.

Yeah, he should have said gorilla mask.

|12.11.08 @ 1:12PM|#

Che = Patrick Bateman

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 1:12PM|#

Che Guevara = Randall Flagg. Che Guevara could also be a symbol for Shardik the Bear.

|12.11.08 @ 1:16PM|#

We're doing Stephen King, not Bret Easton Ellis, NutraSweet. Try and stay on topic.

|12.11.08 @ 1:18PM|#

Che was fighting against …

- American Oligarchy (United Fruit, Texaco, U.S. Sugar)
- The US based Mafia (1959 Havana)
- The Monroe Doctrine rationale for Latin American Imperialism (Bay of Pigs)
- The idea of "Banana Republics" (Arbenz 1953 coup)

It just kills Conservatives that such a heroic man will not go away. That is because these troglodytes can't fathom that he lives in the hearts of the hungry and the oppressed … and that ideas never die.

Hence Che Lives on !

|12.11.08 @ 1:23PM|#

well said joe "the commie"
you're the first one to write something intelligent!
congrats!
(i wonder how many of these right wingers are busy looking up the word "troglodyte" right now to find out what it means :D )

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 1:24PM|#

SugarFree reminds me of that guy from the Old Man Adam Sandler sketch:

"R---E---S---P---S!!!"

What the fuck, Sammy?"

Egosumabbas|12.11.08 @ 1:29PM|#

"Egosumabbas likes his armed revolutionaries to be peaceful ..."

Well, I'm not a fan of revolutionaries who execute people without fair trials. But I guess that makes me a right-wing dingbat.

|12.11.08 @ 1:29PM|#

Shut up, TAO or I'll quote you out of context and wrap myself in bullshit self-righteousness for 200 comments.

Egosumabbas|12.11.08 @ 1:31PM|#

@bob and joe the commie

What right wingers? Do you even know what site you're posting to? Well, since you're basement dwellers (would that fit the definition of troglodyte) you wouldn't know the difference.

|12.11.08 @ 1:34PM|#

I don't particularly like Castro, nor Cuba, nor Communism.

Still I find myself fascinated by Che Guevara.

Even a die hard capitalist like me can realize that the other side also has brave and admirable figures.

+ I wish anti-communists had a guy that looked this cool for a symbol … Ayn Rand on a baby T just doesn't really win over the ladies.

|12.11.08 @ 1:36PM|#

Why, no, Episiarch, I still maintain that his culpability is limited. And, as you so aptly stated, he may not have been in the best state of mind to evaluate the reason Number Six--whom he believed to be human, don't forget--wanted access in the first place.

Citizen Nothing,

Be careful that, after those wonderful, unspeakable events that she doesn't use you to destroy the human race. It's been known to happen.

|12.11.08 @ 1:37PM|#

When Che spoke before the U.N. in 1964, he spoke out in favor of black musician Paul Robeson, in support of slain black leader Patrice Lumumba (who he heralded as one of his heroes), against white segregation in the Southern U.S. (which still unfortunately existed), and against the white South African apartheid regime (long before it became the Western 'cause de jour').

Not a bad resume & might explain why Mandela admires him.

Egosumabbas|12.11.08 @ 1:37PM|#

@cheney's hunting partner

Does this fit the bill?

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 1:38PM|#

Shut up, TAO or I'll quote you out of context and wrap myself in bullshit self-righteousness for 200 comments.

Bwa ha ha. Perfect. 10/10.

Egosumabbas|12.11.08 @ 1:40PM|#

Actual Che quote:

"The blacks, those magnificent examples of the African race who have conserved their racial purity by a lack of affinity with washing, have seen their patch invaded by a different kind of slave: The Portugese.... the black is indolent and fanciful, he spends his money on frivolity and drink; the European comes from a tradition of working and saving which follows him to this corner of America and drives him to get ahead."

What a great man for Mandela to look up to.

|12.11.08 @ 1:42PM|#

Carlos - not to mention that when Guevara ventured to the Congo, (to battle against the brutal Mobutu, who ruled for decades afterwards) he fought with a Cuban force of mostly all Afro-Cubans (blacks) including those black Congolese fighters who he fought alongside AGAINST a force comprised mostly of white South African mercenaries ... later Guevara offered assistance to fight alongside the (black) FRELIMO in Mozambique, for their independence from the white South African apartheid regime.

White Gusanos: "But but he killed convicted war criminals !"

|12.11.08 @ 1:42PM|#

Egosumabbas: wtf? basement dwellers? HAHAHAHA! you really shouldn't leap to such conculsions. it just makes you look ill informed.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 1:43PM|#

How about this shirt?

Or maybe this one?

|12.11.08 @ 1:44PM|#

he may not have been in the best state of mind to evaluate the reason Number Six--whom he believed to be human, don't forget--wanted access in the first place

You can try your slippery lawyer tricks here, ProL, but they don't change the fact that she wanted him to compromise the planetary defenses. What possible reason could there be for that? Her intergalactic pizza delivery needed to get through?

You are an apologist for megalomaniacal horndogs.

|12.11.08 @ 1:45PM|#

Seward,

Stopping expansion is one thing. Hitler's military machine was smashed, his country overrun, and his regime forcibly removed from power. Stalin and Mao, not so much. They continued to rule, and kill, until the natural end of their lives. Decades longer than Hitler.

|12.11.08 @ 1:45PM|#

Not to mention that Guevara's 'Guerrilla Warfare' was the main manual for the Viet Cong who at worst fought the U.S. (and are moronic capitulating govt) to a stand still.

Err, not really. The VC were pretty much wiped out after Tet. Tet was in 1968. By 1970, the communists controlled practically nothing in South Vietnam, and the North switched from the failed guerrilla tactics of the VC to the NVA. It was the NVA regular army that conquered the South.

|12.11.08 @ 1:48PM|#

That is because these troglodytes can't fathom that he lives in the hearts of the hungry and the oppressed.

Actually, he seems mostly to live on in the fashion accessories of the well-fed and the wealthy.

|12.11.08 @ 1:50PM|#

Egosumabbas: wtf? basement dwellers? HAHAHAHA! you really shouldn't leap to such conculsions. it just makes you look ill informed.

Says the guy who posts on a libertarian website and calls it right wing.

|12.11.08 @ 1:50PM|#

Egosumabbas - that racist observation came from a 22 year old Che during his Motorcycle Diaries. It was after that trip that he announced himself transformed and "not the same man that I once was".

When he became "Che" in Cuba his friend and personal bodyguard (who accompanied him at all times after 1959) was Harry "Pombo" Villegas, who was Afro-Cuban (black). Pombo accompanied Che to the Congo and to Bolivia, where he survived and now lives in Cuba. Of note, Pombo speaks glowingly of Guevara to this day.

|12.11.08 @ 1:51PM|#

If Osama bin Laden was killed, the fact that the threat he posed would be eliminated would be good, and I would be happy about THAT. About the fact that the threat had been removed. It's "the necessary."

I wouldn't get a hard-on from seeing his corpse, though.

That's the difference between the two of us, TAO.

|12.11.08 @ 1:51PM|#

You know, the difference between civilization (me) and barbarism (you).

|12.11.08 @ 1:52PM|#

R C Dean said: "That is because these troglodytes can't fathom that he lives in the hearts of the hungry and the oppressed.

Actually, he seems mostly to live on in the fashion accessories of the well-fed and the wealthy."

R C Dean, you haven't been to cuba recently have you? the people there still idolize him. they sing about him, they talk about him. and all of that is in private where they don't have to worry about government spooks listening in. in those cases they are expressing what they truly feel, and what they feel for che is admiration, gratitude and love.

|12.11.08 @ 1:52PM|#

...the difference between a firing squad in a concealed courtyard of a prison (me) and a public drawing and quartering, complete with howling crowd (you).

|12.11.08 @ 1:53PM|#

Pain: libertarian in name, but plenty of people posting here certainly are not fitting under that category.

|12.11.08 @ 1:54PM|#

Che cleaned out the war criminals and goons … and yes gave them justice against the wall. I would have loved to be there sipping a mojito and smoking a MonteCristo while these former torturers were tied to the stake.

Hell, I wish he had killed more - that way Miami wouldn't be a 3rd world hell hole today ran by the ex Havana mob & their Cocaine cartel.

|12.11.08 @ 1:55PM|#

bob's formulation of "a libertarian is someone who agrees with me" is hilarious.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 1:56PM|#

joe, now you are just making shit up.

You know, the difference between civilization (me) and barbarism (you).

Get over yourself. Bottom line: we would BOTH be happy if Osama Bid Laden was killed. You can claim that your happiness is somehow more civilized than mine, but you're wrong.

If OBL was killed, I would throw a party. I don't apologize for that. And if you're happy about it, I cannot understand what religion or sense of shame about it drives you to deny it.

|12.11.08 @ 1:57PM|#

SugarFree's ability to leap to conclusions is almost olympic in scope. too bad they don't hand out medals for being a douche.

|12.11.08 @ 1:58PM|#

1950's Cuba was the Caribbean's St Tropez, a playground to the rich. Havana was a neon-lit lair where characters such as Frank Sinatra and his Cuban counterpart, Beni More, worked the cash tills and played hard. Sultry, hot Latino girls competed with blondes from mainland America for the attention of royals and the kings of the boulevard.

= Then that adventurist "dreamer" from Argentina, Che Guevara, came and spoilt the fun :o(

Hence, the white oligarchs who fled their latifundios to Miami, have saw to it that the Cuban people (and their wage slaves) who backed the revolution - SUFFER - ever since under an unjust embargo (Communist China owns most U.$. currency).

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 1:58PM|#

...the difference between a firing squad in a concealed courtyard of a prison (me) and a public drawing and quartering, complete with howling crowd (you).

Nope. Never said anything about public, tortuous executions. Just said that someone dying does not have to be accompanied by your crocodile tears and faux-remorse.

It's OK to be glad that someone is dead.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 1:58PM|#

too bad they don't hand out medals for being a douche.

They do. You're just hogging them all (you Douche Champion you!)

|12.11.08 @ 1:59PM|#

(hands bob a huge medal)

|12.11.08 @ 2:00PM|#

God damn you, TAO! Twice!

|12.11.08 @ 2:01PM|#

DEATH COUNT:

CHE GUEVARA = few hundred of Batista's henchmen, torturers, and rapists.

REAGAN = 1 million Iraqi/Iranians by selling weapons to both sides
CONTRA death squads that lead to the deaths of 70,000 in El Salvador, more than 100,000 in Guatemala, and 30,000 in Nicaragua.

CHE < REAGAN "the real Butcher"

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 2:04PM|#

Don't worry, Epi. You can hand one to joe, too.

|12.11.08 @ 2:05PM|#

--> A NEW DEFINITION FOR "CHUTZPAH"

When someone who supports the same country that nuked 2 cities and turned 250,000 people to dust … the same country that fire bombed Dresden and burned 150,000 women and child alive, the same country that killed 15 million Natives because they felt it was their 'manifest destiny' … the same country that enslaved millions of blacks … the same country whose CIA has killed 6 million people since 1950 (John Stockwell) … the same country that invaded Iraq which has caused 950,000 + deaths …

Not to mention propped up the many brutal tyrants like Pinochet, Suharto, Marcos, and Somoza … backed contra movements through the School of the Americas …

-> HAS THE CHUTZPAH to pretend to be upset that Cuba under CHE had tribunals (just like the Nuremburg one after WWII the US had) and then as a result had a few hundred of the brutal dictator Batista's convicted henchmen, rapists, & torturers (most who were the secret police of the BRAC and who had killed 20,000 people) executed at La Cabana.

WOW … there are no words for the audacity of such insanity !

Amerikkkan Reich-Wing Propaganda would make Goebbels blush.

|12.11.08 @ 2:08PM|#

Citing Paquito D'Rivera as a credible source on Che Guevara - is comparable to citing George Bush on ancient Persian history.

-(cue up W telling us about how they make good cats)-

Egosumabbas|12.11.08 @ 2:09PM|#

"Che cleaned out the war criminals and goons … and yes gave them justice against the wall. I would have loved to be there sipping a mojito and smoking a MonteCristo while these former torturers were tied to the stake.

Hell, I wish he had killed more - that way Miami wouldn't be a 3rd world hell hole today ran by the ex Havana mob & their Cocaine cartel."

Oh, I guess you missed the part in Che's diary where he executes a boy for opposing the arrest of his father. And I suppose you also missed the part where Che refused to put people on trial and didn't care if they were innocent or not.

|12.11.08 @ 2:09PM|#

Srsly, who linked this story? This is the sorriest gaggle of idiots since the last time the National Review tried to flood us.

Egosumabbas|12.11.08 @ 2:10PM|#

Is "Viva U.$. Death Squads !" performance art? Because if so, he's really really really good.

|12.11.08 @ 2:13PM|#

BOTH SIDES CALM DOWN !

We're living in a time of instantly-gratifying selective history; if you're a conservative you can log onto Amazon right now and find a book that supports your ideology. If your a liberal - likewise. There are plenty of books expounding on the heroic feats of the liberator, Che Guevara. On the flip side there are plenty that rail against all the atrocities he committed. These are then "proven" or "disproved" by a series of other books.

There's a reason why Che (the Robin Hood myth) is still compelling. Regardless of his actual exploits, the myth depicts a character who overthrows a brutal dictatorship by rallying the common folk. He takes land from wealthy foreigners who've exploited the poor and gives it away. He fights in another continent to help free South African blacks. He thumbs his nose at a superpower which has grown incredibly arrogant and belligerent in it's meddling. There's a lot to like in that for anyone (regardless of its accuracy).

|12.11.08 @ 2:14PM|#

Episiarch, I think you're all-too familiar with megalomaniacal horndogs.

|12.11.08 @ 2:16PM|#

The revolutionary firing squads Che oversaw were supported by 93 % of Cubans at the time.

|12.11.08 @ 2:17PM|#

- In September of 2007, Che was voted "Argentina's greatest historical and political figure", and this Summer they erected a giant statue of him in Rosario.

|12.11.08 @ 2:18PM|#

NutraSweet, every email address ends with aol.com. So it's either some Che-loving aol board, or it's all the same jackass. I think it's the latter.

|12.11.08 @ 2:18PM|#

In 1999, Che was named one of the 100 most influential people of the 20th century by Time Magazine, and listed as a "Saint and Icon".

http://www.time.com/time/time100/heroes/profile/guevara01.html

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 2:19PM|#

This is the sorriest gaggle of idiots since the last time the National Review tried to flood us.

You're the one who keeps trying bring Feministing upon our heads. I figured this level of commentary is what you wanted :D

.|12.11.08 @ 2:20PM|#

It's adorable how Hispanics get so emotional and defensive over Che.
It's like he's their Babe Ruth.

|12.11.08 @ 2:21PM|#

I think RevLeft must've linked here. Too many posts to be one guy.

|12.11.08 @ 2:21PM|#

Episiarch, I think you're all-too familiar with megalomaniacal horndogs.

There's really not anything I can say back to that. Touche, ProL.

Egosumabbas|12.11.08 @ 2:21PM|#

"if you're a conservative you can log onto Amazon right now and find a book that supports your ideology."

There are very few conservatives who post on this blog. You must be new here.

"These are then "proven" or "disproved" by a series of other books."

I accept that Che was a complex person. He idealized a communist utopia, and wanted "help" the poor. He was also a murderous asshole. Don't forget that.

"There's a reason why Che (the Robin Hood myth) is still compelling. Regardless of his actual exploits, the myth depicts a character ..."

You're forgetting that Che was a real person, and not a fantasy from Imaginationland. I have the right to judge people who wear Che shirts to be either naive or delusional.

Pol Pot|12.11.08 @ 2:23PM|#

What about me? Can't I get some love?

|12.11.08 @ 2:23PM|#

This is better this way

Learn how Che admirers think

"Keep our enemies closer".

|12.11.08 @ 2:23PM|#

TAO, crawfishing:

Nope. Never said anything about public, tortuous executions. Just said that someone dying does not have to be accompanied by your crocodile tears and faux-remorse.

Actually, you wrote that you wanted a tee-shirt with a grisly picture of a Bolivian military officer poking at the corpose of Che Guevara. You don't just take pleasure in the the removal of the threat he represented, or even in knowing that he recieved justice. No, you want the visceral experience of dancing around a corpse.

And rather than saying I would feel remorse at bin Laden's death, I said I would be pleased that the threat he represented had been removed. It would be a good thing if he were eliminated, but I feel nothing but disgust at the thought of celebrating over his corpse, while you find the idea exciting.

Because you are a barbarian. It's ok. Most teenaged boys are barbarians. I was.

Egosumabbas|12.11.08 @ 2:24PM|#

"LiberaCHE | December 11, 2008, 2:16pm | #

The revolutionary firing squads Che oversaw were supported by 93 % of Cubans at the time.
LiberaCHE | December 11, 2008, 2:17pm | #

- In September of 2007, Che was voted "Argentina's greatest historical and political figure", and this Summer they erected a giant statue of him in Rosario."

etc, ad nauseam.

I believe you need to familiarize yourself with the logical fallacy known as argumentum ad populum.

|12.11.08 @ 2:27PM|#

When I was younger I admired Che (a lot)

Then I discovered Ron Paul.

.|12.11.08 @ 2:28PM|#

Almost 400 comments, and fewer than half are joe's.
Stalin would call this "progress."

|12.11.08 @ 2:28PM|#

"You're forgetting that Che was a real person, and not a fantasy from Imaginationland."

Ever read War and Peace?

|12.11.08 @ 2:31PM|#

"The application of the death penalty in Cuba against war criminals and others followed the same procedure as that seen in the trials by the Allies in the Nuremberg trials. Had the Revolutionary Government not applied severe legislation against the few hundred torturers, terrorists, and other criminals long employed by the Batista regime, the people themselves would have taken justice into their own hands--as happened during the anti-Machado rebellion--and thrown the society into chaos. It was only the population's confidence in the government's effective and cautiously selective administration of revolutionary justice that kept the society in order. The death penalty was imposed on the enemies of the people--those who had killed, tortured, and committed crimes against humanity during the revolutionary war and continued to conspire against the revolution. These were the traitorous elements that supported and participated in the Batista regime and received shelter in the United States or Falangist Spain and those that feared fulfillment of the promise to the end of class privilege, exploitation, and all abuses of the Batista regime maintained by the overthrown Cuban bourgeoisie, American corporations, and the U.S. regime."

Thirty Years of Cuban Revolutionary Penal Law
By Raul Gomez Treto
Latin American Perspectives, Vol. 18, No. 2, Cuban Views on the Revolution (Spring, 1991), pp. 114-125

|12.11.08 @ 2:33PM|#

You're the one who keeps trying bring Feministing upon our heads.

I never posted one of our threads on their site, just pulled back the curtain for our enjoyment. And I explicitly renounced going on their site to criticize them. So, to be consistent, if some fucktard who likes the taste of 40-year-dead commie cock wants to link to this thread and mock us, go right ahead. But coming here to launch a whiny sock puppet attack is perfectly denouncable on my part.

|12.11.08 @ 2:34PM|#

"Batista's forces were trained by the United States, which also armed them with tanks, artillery and aircraft."

"The Batista government reacted very strongly ... bodies were left by the side of the road .... young people suspected of being rebel sympathizers were shot and in some cases jailed and tortured."

"An estimated 20,000 people were murdered by government forces during the Batista dictatorship."

WATCH & LEARN

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NW1Yh8D-xCg

Captain Ripper|12.11.08 @ 2:35PM|#

Seward | December 11, 2008, 10:11am | #
scarface,

Well, we should also keep in mind that the lash was still used as a punishment in 18th century armies and navies.

To be fair, we were all manly men back then (even if we enjoyed a pop in the pooch every now and then on those lonely nights at sea) who could very well take a few whelps on the back without crying like candy asses.
A thrashing then was the equivalent of a night in the brig with half yer fair of rum now. When the testosterone count is taken in consideration.

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 2:35PM|#

Most teenaged boys are barbarians. I was.

joe, you know for a fact that I am not a teenager, so knock it the fuck off.

Actually, you wrote that you wanted a tee-shirt with a grisly picture of a Bolivian military officer poking at the corpose of Che Guevara

It was actually presented as a counterpoint to the original Tee, joe. But you knew that too. If some Tees celebrate the man's life, why not one that celebrates the man's death?

You're not this stupid. You're a troll.

Les|12.11.08 @ 2:35PM|#

From a good interview with Soderberg, whose work I love and admire, though I'll probably skip this one:

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/39403

Capone: Have you given any thought to what Che would think of a movie like this?

SS: I think he'd hate it. Well, I don't think he liked movies. I mean, the only reference in all of his writings that I could find to movies is literally a sentence where he says, "Children's stories, novels, and movies are ways in which the imperialists sell their propaganda." I don't think he had much use for art, period.

Capone: I never got a sense he had much place for artists in his revolution either.

SS: No, there's another line from that same essay, "Man and Socialism in Cuba," where he says, "There is no great artist who is also a great revolutionary." So, yeah, I don't exist in the society that he is going to create, which is what's funny to me, when people think that I must believe everything that he believes to make a movie about him.

Well, first of all, I wouldn't be walking the red carpet at Cannes, if I believed a twentieth of what he believes. And, secondly, literally, I have no job, you know. He feels that's all a waste of money. You could be buying books for kids with that money, and maybe he's right.

|12.11.08 @ 2:37PM|#

Enough with the political talk :o)

Let's talk about the hot Benicio Del Toro and his role as El Che

The Angry Optimist|12.11.08 @ 2:37PM|#

It would be a good thing if he were eliminated, but I feel nothing but disgust at the thought of celebrating over his corpse, while you find the idea exciting.

Exciting? We all see what you're trying to do, joe. You're trying to claim I get a sexual thrill from death, and I have never, nor will I ever, say that or believe that.

So, again, I say, knock it off.

I said I would be happy if OBL was killed. And I would have a "yay, OBL is dead" party. And so would you.

|12.11.08 @ 2:38PM|#

--> A NEW DEFINITION FOR "CHUTZPAH"

When someone who supports the same country that nuked 2 cities and turned 250,000 people to dust … the same country that fire bombed Dresden and burned 150,000 women and child alive, the same country that killed 15 million Natives because they felt it was their 'manifest destiny' … the same country that enslaved millions of blacks … the same country whose CIA has killed 6 million people since 1950 (John Stockwell) … the same country that invaded Iraq which has caused 950,000 + deaths …

Not to mention propped up the many brutal tyrants like Pinochet, Suharto, Marcos, and Somoza … backed contra movements through the School of the Americas …

-> HAS THE CHUTZPAH to pretend to be upset that Cuba under CHE had tribunals (just like the Nuremburg one after WWII the US had) and then as a result had a few hundred of the brutal dictator Batista's convicted henchmen, rapists, & torturers (most who were the secret police of the BRAC and who had killed 20,000 people) executed at La Cabana.

WOW … there are no words for the audacity of such insanity !

Amerikkkan Reich-Wing Propaganda would make Goebbels blush.

And this justifies him trying to launch nuclear missles at the US during the Cuban missle Crisis thereby touching off WWIII? IIRC it was Che who orchestrated that and was pissed when the Soviets wouldn't launch them.

But hey it's all for The People right?

|12.11.08 @ 2:39PM|#

Film Clip of Del Toro as Che ...

http://www.traileraddict.com/clip/che/stay-here

Captain Ripper|12.11.08 @ 2:39PM|#

Two fucks of a shit,
that's all our posts ever meant

|12.11.08 @ 2:46PM|#

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara

Viva Wikipedia :o)

Egosumabbas|12.11.08 @ 2:51PM|#

@Carlos/Miami

What is your purpose of posting information about the Baptista regime? I don't remember defending those criminals either.

Also, keep in mind that Che in his executions, unlike the Nuremburg trials, DID NOT BELIEVE IN LEGAL TRIALS. He didn't even give show trials. He merely executed people without giving a thought as to determining their actual guilt. He also personally participated in the executions without regret.

How does this make Che a hero and not just your typical thuggish warlord murderer?

|12.11.08 @ 2:52PM|#

If you volunteer to join the military, and the military has a law that says "No desertion during wartime, lest ye be shot", you are volunteering to be subject to that law for a set number of years. Ergo, if you desert, you are subject to that punishment, by your own volition and free will.

This is indeed what happens
but it's utterly Authoritarian
voluntary means
done, given, or acting of one's own free will

that would be without coercion, this is infact at the heart of libertarian thought

Indeed the system with most statist armies specifies punishment for desertion but this is by its own nature aganist the most fundamental principles of libertarianism

However to further the point we were talking about volunteer armies in a revolutionary context such as the Spanish Civil War or the Cuban Revolution in which no contract or legal document would have be signed. Indeed George Orwell volunteered for such a group fighting for the Spanish republic, as is detailed in the book homage to Catalunia he was so disgusted by the behaviour and brutality of the Anarchists and communists that he uped sticks and left. What you would refer to as desertion. What you are insinuating is that George Orwell should have been shot (and we never would have had one of the greatest anti-authoritarain parables ever written).

Even in the event that you are an authoritarian and you accept desertion laws Che Guevarra had no legal document stating that his army could not desert. That makes him a murdering authoritarian fuck,
no different to the sum who ordered deserters shot during WW1.

|12.11.08 @ 2:59PM|#

Egosumabbas,

Che's actions did not occur in a bubble. (Should we judge Hiroshima without taking into account Pearl Harbor?) Batista is the most relevant component to the story. If Che merely wanted to execute people he could have done so in Bolivia & the Congo (yet he released all prisoners in both conflicts).

Those he had executed at La Cabana were CONVICTED by a revolutionary tribunal process of 3 judges. Albeit yes a quick one done in public stadiums most of the time and lasting only several hours. Che's job was to merely review the convictions and decide to pardon them or not. Sort of like a governor in the U.S. (Bush signed 158 death warrants as Texas Governor) = should he be the "Butcher of the Alamo"?

As for Che yes he personally executed a few people himself during a guerrilla war - but this "myth" of him as Castro's chief executioner is a joke. He was only at La Cabana for 5 months and then became an Economic Minister. Biographer Jon Lee Anderson found that 55 men were killed at La Cabana while Che was in charge there.

|12.11.08 @ 3:04PM|#

Keep this thread going forever

hahaha

Entertaining indeed [and my boss is paying me to read it]

Viva lazy Capitalism :)

|12.11.08 @ 3:06PM|#

Keep this thread going forever

We should force Catholic pharmacists to abort Palin's retard babies!

You're welcome.

|12.11.08 @ 3:06PM|#

--> A NEW DEFINITION FOR "dumbass"

When someone can't comprehend that just because you think Che was a murdering authoritarian fuck you don't automatically have to support the US government.

|12.11.08 @ 3:07PM|#

By the way this is probably where all these Miami people came from - including myself

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/americas/cuba/story/808651.html

Which linked to the story

alan|12.11.08 @ 3:13PM|#

Srongly agree with Joe about these constant posting of Guevara fashionista
articles being overdone. They attract the Che-tards who normally do not bother to post on libertarian sites, and it always cycles in monotonous discussions of 'Washington,
war criminal, blahdadeefuckingblah decadent crap' these overly washed heathens (I bet Carlos is as bourgeoisie as a vase lily) wasting their parents good money spoon feeding Marxist dialectics disguised as history lessons

alan|12.11.08 @ 3:15PM|#

Neiman Marxist

Now that is a funny play on words, I'll give you that.

|12.11.08 @ 3:20PM|#

Episiarch,

You don't really know someone until you've posted with him a few hundred thousand times on the same blog.

|12.11.08 @ 3:34PM|#

Egosumabbas: "I accept that Che was a complex person. He idealized a communist utopia, and wanted 'help' the poor. He was also a murderous asshole. Don't forget that."

"Murderous asshole" trumps all. While I typically find your comments well-founded, everything else in the above quote is extraneous and irrelevant.

How sad to listen to the apologists of Che.
Truly.
And how sad that any individual requires any hero-figure.
A governor, a rock guitarist, an actor (that's the one that takes the cake -- a person who makes a living by reading lines that someone else wrote for them, and for that they are equipped to testify before Congress on policy suggestions), a ballplayer, a President.....
Most people would step aside to let them proceed ahead of them in the ticket line. Pitiful.
I sometimes think there is no hope for this world.

Anyway, "murderous asshole" is all that needs to be written. Any further time spent on his scum-ridden life and twisted brain is an affront to all those who pursued a model of kindness and fairness and peace.

Anybody that will spend one moment, even one, to rationalize that pig's behavior is a slave. A pathetic slave. Che would have liked those folks.
Whether or not he would order their execution, or their kids, would be a decision based on the benefit of "the people." Whatever that means.

Egosumabbas|12.11.08 @ 3:37PM|#

"Carlos/Miami | December 11, 2008, 3:07pm | #

By the way this is probably where all these Miami people came from - including myself

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/americas/cuba/story/808651.html

Which linked to the story"

So Carlos, would it be safe to assume that you're Cuban? If so, your relatives fled the brutal oppression of a country that Che helped found, and now you consider Che a saint. Or am I wrong here?

|12.11.08 @ 3:45PM|#

Egosum,

No, contrary to popular belief, not all Hispanics in Miami are Cubans. (It's about 70/30)

One of the interesting clashes in the city at present are the more leftist oriented 'darker skin' Hispanics (Who admire Che) and the white Cuban exiles who obviously abhor Che/Castro etc.

|12.11.08 @ 3:47PM|#

Citizen Nothing... your right "Shrill leftist" IS retarded!

Carlos/Miami: Umm, Che couldn't execute ppl in Congo or Bolivia because those revolutions failed!! Cuba was the only revolution he fought in and won!

And by the way, what was the crime of those CONVICTED by the "revolutionary tribunal"?? because Stalin and Hilter CONVICTED all those they killed, too!

And comparing Bushs signed execution to Che?? come'on do better that man.. por el pueblo Cubano y del Istmo Centro Americano!!!

Those executed in Texas are serial rapists, murders, etc! not men executed for political and economical differences.

and Viva U.$. Death Squads! F U buddy!! we in Nicaragua are glad Reagen helped finance the Contras! if not we'd be in the same position as Cuba!

The USA should finance every movement against communist dictators!

VIVA LA CONTRA!!!!

|12.11.08 @ 3:49PM|#

an affront to all those who pursued a model of kindness and fairness and peace.

You tell em !

Those Jewish resisters in the Warsaw ghettos should have had a sit in or maybe a pow wow prayer circle.

I am sure that Batista's goons would have responded well to a bus boycott or perhaps a "freedom concert" :o)

|12.11.08 @ 3:52PM|#

Egosumabbas and Carlos/Miami=

There is also a large population of Nicaraguans in miami.. my people.. who feld Nicaragua because of Communist murders like Daniel Ortega helped and financed by Cuba's Castro/Guevara!

|12.11.08 @ 3:59PM|#

The point flies blithely over your head.
The Jewish resisters were fighting the same kind of scum that Che represents. And those Jewish resisters, like the Fench Resistance, were pursuing a model of kindness and fairness and peace. Israel and France, with their flaws, are presently representative of that model.

It was neither logical nor ethical to replace Batista's goons with Fidel's goons.
Mass slave mentality is hard to shed.

|12.11.08 @ 4:05PM|#

jg:


kuddos on your comments!

murderous asshole does trump all!

except maybe for MURDEROUS FLAMMING ASSHOLE!

|12.11.08 @ 4:10PM|#

The Jewish resisters were fighting the same kind of scum that Che represents

So does that mean Batista and his death toll of 20,000 killed in his dungeons was Gandhi ?

Since you mentioned Israel - how about Irgun ? Guess which Irgun"terrorist" went on to lead Israel? How about the "Buthcer of the King David Hotel" then

Everyones hands has blood on it.

The West far more than most.

Che - much much much less than almost all governments who bash him.

|12.11.08 @ 4:12PM|#

Kalelo,

The people of Nicaragua democractically elected President Ortega.

Seems they don't share your view.

Hasta la Victoria Siempre !

|12.11.08 @ 4:17PM|#

"Martyrs, my friend, have to choose between being forgotten, mocked or used. As for being understood - never."

~ Albert Camus

|12.11.08 @ 4:18PM|#

Che had this Jack London-style attitude to revolution as one great big unending adventure, but none of the political maturity to deal with the practical realities of making the country work. He had this Castilian Spanish upper-class guilt about the working class and peasants that he never quite overcame. For all the noble impulses that drove him, and I think there were many, Che's whole life could be read as a foredoomed attempt to leave his own class.

|12.11.08 @ 4:24PM|#

Ron Paul might actually agree with these remarks by Che ...


"The United States hastens the delivery of arms to the puppet governments they see as being increasingly threatened; it makes them sign pacts of dependence to legally facilitate the shipment of instruments of repression and death and of troops to use them."
--- Che Guevara, April 9, 1961

MNG|12.11.08 @ 4:42PM|#

I was at a long meeting, but now I'm back to spank TAO.

So TAO you have this conclusion "something necessary must be good." So your argument, if you even have an inkling of wtf you are talking about, which I doubt (you never did explain wtf you meant by this) must be

1. All necessary acts/things have quality x
2. Having quality x makes something (morally?) good.
3. Therefore all necessary actsthings are or must be good

Now Mr. Smartypants, what the hell is quality x? What is it about necessary things that makes them good? C'mon, let's hear it bro.

|12.11.08 @ 4:53PM|#

"The Jewish resisters were fighting the same kind of scum that Che represents..."
"So does that mean Batista and his death toll of 20,000 killed in his dungeons was Gandhi ?"

No, it means that Batista was scum.

"Since you mentioned Israel - how about Irgun ? Guess which Irgun'terrorist' went on to lead Israel? How about the 'Butcher of the King David Hotel' then?"

If Begin was guilty of this, then he was scum.

"Everyone's hands has blood on it."

Everyone? I don't think I do. I doubt that you do. Notice that most of your comments mix individuals with abstract group entities, such as governments; i.e., the "government killed somebody."

"The West far more than most."

What is the West? This is yet another abstraction. The "West" cannot pick up a gun.

"Che - much much much less than almost all governments who bash him."

Finally, no abstraction! Che was not an abstraction. He was a man.
He was scum.

The thrust of the article was well-stated, in my view. Why would I want to wear a shirt with the image of scum on it?
Why should we idolize anyone, anyone(!), and wear them on our chest?

Regards,
jg


P.S. Forgive my stupidity, but how does one employ the system in a Reply fashion, so that quotes are italicized? I know, dumb question, but I'm overlooking this somehow...

|12.11.08 @ 5:14PM|#

@ Calor/Miami....

He was not elected in the 80's budddy. but recently ,Umm yes, he was "democratically" elected with 37% of vote.. the other 70% did not vote for him but he changed the law so that instead of the 45% needed to be elected it is now 35% and guess what.. 2 yrs in to his presidency and he has set up a quasi-dictatorship already.. who murdered, robbed and impoverished Nicaragua and RAPED HIS STEP DAUGHTER please educate yourself b4 i pay a ticket to miami just to kick your ass.



He was a dictator back in the 80's and he still is on today!

Here you go for your education:

http://www.economist.com/world/americas/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12607338

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1858920,00.html

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1850451,00.html

|12.11.08 @ 5:15PM|#

P.S. Forgive my stupidity, but how does one employ the system in a Reply fashion, so that quotes are italicized? I know, dumb question, but I'm overlooking this somehow...

Italics are so bourgeois. I prefer the blockquote tag, myself.

|12.11.08 @ 5:21PM|#

So yes the ppl of Nicaragua do share my views along with every other Central American and South American nations and ppl... except of course Castro and Chavez.. no surprise there..

his ONLY allies are Castro, Chavez, Iran Palestine and N. Korea.. woo hooo for you

yeah" hasta la victoria siempre" another che guevara qoute!

You really have no idea of FSLN, Ortega and Nicaragua.. so i suggest you read up on the artciles i posted for you..

by the way, the EU and USA are cutting all the aid to Nicaragua because of Ortega increasing authoritarians government... we are the brink of another civil war.. even the embassy of Sweden closed down last mth here because Orteg has gotten too dictatorial for their blood...

vos debes ser un hijo de puta resentido social.. why dont you leave the USA and go live in Cuba! u fucking coward!

|12.11.08 @ 5:25PM|#

'Black Book of Communism' = 100,000,000 DEATHS

'Black Book of Capitalism' = 147,387,051 DEATHS


"Communism" ... 47 % less deadly than Capitalism.

Pac|12.11.08 @ 5:29PM|#

Kalelo,

You really need better sources, if i was going to look for objective decent information about Ortega and Nicaragua, i would definitly not be foolish enough to rely on the economist or time magazine.


Time magazine?!?!?!?!?

in other words...WTF

|12.11.08 @ 5:29PM|#

this last entry by "capitalist slave" is the most retarded one yet and unfactual

Pac|12.11.08 @ 5:31PM|#

I must say one thing, this thread has been a blast, and i really must read that big CHE book in borders that's been catching my eye. But i already have enough books to catch up on.

|12.11.08 @ 5:31PM|#

Ah Kalelo,

Don't get whiny because you tucked in the weiner and fled from poor meanie Ortega to the comfort of American Capitali$m.

Maybe if you had half the 'Cajones' that Che had, you would have tried to start your own revolution and topple him. Hell Fidel at one time was down to 12 men and came out victorious.

Then again he is one of the greatest minds and men of the last millenia - and you probably cut some rich gringos grass for a lawn company.

AL bundy|12.11.08 @ 5:31PM|#

IF Che didn't stop one man from getting married, i don't want to hear about it.