The One and Only Billy Ayers...

I'm not convinced that painting former Weather Underground jefe Bill Ayers and Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama as a post-American Century version of Brian Piccolo and Gale Sayers is a) effective negative politics or b) particularly relevant in the glimmering twilight of late capitalism (by which I mean of course enduring capitalism that will hopefully still be around to help increase my kids' standard of living every bit as much as it has mine). As someone who lives in Ohio half the time, I've seen the McCain "Know Enough?" attack ad about Ayers a million times. My seven-year-old son thought it was convincing; my 14-year-old thought it was irrelevant and weak. Go figure.

But Bill "I don't regret setting bombs" Ayers really is a jackass of the highest degree and deserves all the opprobrium this latest turn in the spotlight affords (his last big burst of publicity came from the ill-timed release of his kaboom-filled autobiography right around the 9/11 attacks; not a good moment to talk about, other things, blowing up the Pentagon).

Here's City Journal's Sol Stern with a strong piece about Ayers' post-radical life as an "education reformer":

Calling Bill Ayers a school reformer is a bit like calling Joseph Stalin an agricultural reformer. (If you find the metaphor strained, consider that Walter Duranty, the infamous New York Times reporter covering the Soviet Union in the 1930s, did, in fact, depict Stalin as a great land reformer who created happy, productive collective farms.) For instance, at a November 2006 education forum in Caracas, Venezuela, with President Hugo Chávez at his side, Ayers proclaimed his support for "the profound educational reforms under way here in Venezuela under the leadership of President Chávez. We share the belief that education is the motor-force of revolution. . . . I look forward to seeing how you continue to overcome the failings of capitalist education as you seek to create something truly new and deeply humane." Ayers concluded his speech by declaring that "Venezuela is poised to offer the world a new model of education - a humanizing and revolutionary model whose twin missions are enlightenment and liberation," and then, as in days of old, raised his fist and chanted: "Viva Presidente Chávez! Viva la Revolucion Bolivariana! Hasta la Victoria Siempre!"

More here.

reason on the Weather Underground.

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  • ||

    "What did you learn in school today?"


    "I learned that America is a racist, militarist country and that the capitalist system is inherently unfair and oppressive."

    School reformers may just save us all.

  • ||

    No way I'm voting for that guy.

  • PR||

    "Viva Presidente Chávez! Viva la Revolucion Bolivariana! Hasta la Victoria Siempre!"

    easy there Bill, you sound like joe.

  • Abdul||

    the glimmering twilight of late capitalism (by which I mean of course enduring capitalism that will hopefully still be around to help increase my kids' standard of living every bit as much as it has mine)

    I picture Nick Gillespie's kids playing "Monoploy" in a hidden room in the basement when there's a sudden, ominous knock at the door. . . .

  • Hogan||

    Another very good Sol Stern article about Ayers and "social justice" education here. Worth knowing about since these kinds of projects were apparently what Obama and Ayers were throwing millions at.

  • Hogan||

    Just pisses me off, like a billion things about Obama, because I was very favorable to his candidacy back last December when he was purported to have New Democrat-like attitudes towards school choice (and, OT, affirmative action). Instead he's about as stupid lefty as you can get on this shit.

  • ||

    Hogan, your hope for change has changed? If so, then Obama did bring you change!

  • Jerry||

    late capitalism = you're screwed if you're the last trying to get your savings out of the bank.

  • Hogan||

    Epi - It's like he delivered-- by failing to deliver...

    /mindfuck

  • ||

    The guy is a professor of education...isn't that contemptible enough?

  • ||

    Epi - It's like he delivered-- by failing to deliver...

    (head explodes)

  • ||

    Wow, this Ayers dude must have killed millions to make Obama's old "connection" to him the moral equivalent of McCain's ongoing public support of Bush foreign policy.

    Why haven't I ever heard of any of the victims? Must be the liberal media, right? Boy do they need to get their priorities straight.

  • ||

    Mr. Gillespie,
    thanks for the Sgt. Peppers nod. A good song to have stuck in my head.

  • ||

    Ayers is a piece of used asswipe. Still he and Obama's "connection" to him had absolutely nothing to do with me finally deciding that I could not in good conscience vote for CHANGE!

    Lest I wasn't clear, Ayers is a cowardly contemptible jackass (the Democrats mascot).

  • Nigel Watt||

    Ayers is a sellout.

  • BDB||

    This attack won't work not because Ayers isn't a leftist asswipe (he is ) but because he doesn't look particularly scary. He looks like some mild mannered community college professor. Willie Horton this is not.

  • Hogan||

    Ayers is a sellout.

    I only wish he would have done more.

  • BDB||

    Plus, the % of the population that remembers the 1960s continues to dwindle every election cycle.

  • Nigel Watt||

    He looks like some mild mannered community college professor.



    That's why I despise him. He was all balls-to-the-wall revolutionary when it was cool, but he sold out and went peaceful without apologizing. Either continue the stupid violent bullshit or apologize.

  • ||

    In the 1960's the humane thing to do was bomb the Pentagon which was delivering death and destruction to millions in Southeast Asia.

  • BDB||

    "That's why I despise him. He was all balls-to-the-wall revolutionary when it was cool, but he sold out and went peaceful without apologizing."

    This is different from every other person in his generation, how again?

  • Jilly||

    For a second I thought he was standing near that hideous Nathan Bedford Forrest statue off of I-65.

  • ||

    "Homelessness, crime, racism, oppression-we have the resources and knowledge to fight and overcome these things."

    So this is the kind of stuff Ayers is now teaching? OMG! What a frightening radical! I found those articles high on accusations and low on specifics. Not to excuse him from the 60's crap he was involved in. He should have done time. But please, that article was written clearly from a biased point of view.

  • BDB||

    One thing I don't get--how come he never did time in prison if he was a "domestic terrorist"?

  • JP||

    For a second I thought he was standing near that hideous Nathan Bedford Forrest statue off of I-65.

    Wait a minute ... There's a Nathan Bedford Forrest statue? In public?

  • ||

    Plus, the % of the population that remembers the 1960s continues to dwindle every election cycle.

    While the % that is sick of tired of listening to people have the same stupid arguments with the same people about the same things they were arguing about in the SixtiesMan continues to grow.

    John McCain made a Woodstock joke during the primary. A Woodstock joke.

  • Jilly||

    http://www.roadsideamerica.com/tip/3289

  • Nigel Watt||

    This is different from every other person in his generation, how again?

    He pretends he didn't.

  • BDB||

    "John McCain made a Woodstock joke during the primary. A Woodstock joke."

    Well, to be fair at that time he thought he would be running against the Clintons.

  • ||

    This whole Ayers thing has clinched it for me--I am changing my vote, from Barr to Obama. I now feel compelled to cancel out one moron Republican (please forgive the the now near-complete redundancy).

    Any of you guys know a specific GOPer resident in Florida shouting "But what about Ayers!"? If so, please tell him I am canceling out his ass.

  • Hogan||

    BDB - Charges were dropped due to COINTELPRO-related prosecutorial misconduct. I dunno that domestic terrorist deserves scare quotes since he did organize bomb attacks on the Pentagon, Congress, NYPD Headquarters, Haymarket Square and a planned attack on a ROTC dance that led to an accidental explosion killing fellow Weathermen. Sum total I think two cops were killed in these.

    Z - My issue with the social justice ed stuff is less that's it's muy asustadizo and more that the idea is for the focus of early childhood education to be on indoctrinating leftist talking points in schoolkids, and Obama evidently agreed.

  • JP||

    Thanks, Jilly. God, that thing is ugly. (Appropriately so, I suppose.)

  • BDB||

    I did read the teachers union's in Chicago absolutely hated Ayers. I don't know if they hated him for the right reason, though.

  • Nigel Watt||

    henry - You're voting for Obama because people are criticizing him for hanging out with a sellout?

    You might as well be walkin' on the sun

  • Mrs. Choate||

    Now I know where I saw him. He stole my marble rye. I change my vote!

  • ||

    "Either continue the stupid violent bullshit or apologize."

    He should be punished by being forced to falling down drunk, chasing anything that has an 'innie', enrolled in some secretive organization that pays homage to a skull, then taught to kill things from the air at mach 2 be it people or wolves or caribou. Then when sucessful at that given a trust fund and a blond heiress. Save the cheerleader, be the savior of the world...

  • BDB||

    I think Henry is voting against McCain because McCain has apparently made Sean Hannity his new campaign strategist.

  • c||

    also, they blew up a pipe bomb in san fransisco that killed a cop and also an armed hold up of a armored truck in the 80s that resulted in the murder of a security guard.

  • c||

    oh, and also:

    Lest I wasn't clear, Ayers is a cowardly contemptible jackass

    Seconded.

  • Florida GOPer||

    What about Ayers!?

  • Hogan||

    OK - Having researched more, the cop deaths were from the SF things c mentioned. The bombings I listed didn't result in deaths. They also firebombed a judge's house and bombed military recruiting stations in Manhattan. Also I said it was a ROTC dance but it was for the Army at Fort Dix.

    Also apparently they had the gayest possible logo in the history of terrorists.

  • ||

    If Obama wins, Ayers will get a lot of respectability. When the subject of Ayers comes up the response will be that that is old news and we had an election and the people didn't care. Being closely associated with the President opens a lot of doors. Even though Obama can't get away with talking to Ayers directly, I gaurentee you Ayers will have lots of connections in an Obama Presidency and lots of access and lots of respectability to go with it.

    I once joked that there should be a pool on who gets to spend a night in Lincoln Bedroom first, Ayers and Dorn or Jerimiah Wright. I don't think he will get a night in the Lincoln Bedroom, but he will get access and respectability and no doubt any number of big money federal grants to continue his assault on American education if Obama wins.

  • BDB||

    John thinks that Bill Ayers will be the Secretary of Education?

    You're sounding as loony as the leftist moonbats in 2004 that yammered about the coming of Halliburton Fascism.

    Losing elections makes otherwise reasonable people become nutbags.

  • ||

    BDB.

    Read the post. I don't think he will be Secretary of Education. I do think he will be well connected to a lot of Obama people and will gain a veneer of respectability he would not have otherwise had. He will also no doubt have a better shot at feeding at the federal trough and funding his nutbag programs.

    If you are going to accuse someone of being nuts, at least read their posts first.

  • ACORN Stormtrooper||

    We will send you all to Liberal Fascist GULAGS!

  • BDB||

    I'm pretty sure he hardly knows the guy John.

    Are you scared about the treasonous Alaska Independence Party having respectability and access when Sarah Palin becomes VP? No? Then you don't have a leg to stand on.

  • Hogan||

    BDB - So long as Ayers doesn't fall out with Obama like Wright, he'll get more federal funding for his projects or projects he's associated with. Guaranteed. If there's one thing Obama knows how to do as a legislator (and there might only be this one thing), it's throwing money at hard-left associates, political donors, or his wife's relatives/employers. Nuthin' loony about John's projection at all.

  • dhex||

    thanks for reminding us how incredibly shitty city journal is.

    it's like the new yorker on opposite day, but without any decent 10k word pieces on trends in linguistics or water collection technology in the amazon rain forest.

  • BDB||

    Yes Hogan, and when Bush is re-elected, Diebold will control all of us with mind rays!

  • ||

    John thinks that Bill Ayers will be the Secretary of Education?

    That would seem to be the post his background makes him best suited for.

    But then, I understand he's done some work at the Pentagon, too.

  • ||

    BDB,

    I am pretty sure he knows the guy pretty well. Why else did Ayers host Obama's first political fund raiser? Why else is Obama lying about how well he knew him? Why else are they so touchy about the CAC papers? Further, with power it is all about access. Like I said, even Obama is not dumb enough to actually have contact with Ayers, but the people around him will. Whenever a President comes to Washington from the outside, they bring their local mafia with them. Obama will bring his Chicago mafia with him and many of them will know Ayers quite well.

  • Hogan||

    BDB - You seem to know very little about this. Ayers hosted Obama's career kickoff part in his house. He gave him his first (and only) executive position heading up the CAC, which dispensed moneys to radical education projects Ayers approved of. They served together on the Woods Fund board. They appeared together at at least two symposiums about education. Obama praised one of Ayers books on the jacket. Hardly knows the guy my fucking ass.

  • ||

    Schaden-what?

  • BDB||

    Did you learn all that from World Net Daily Hogan?

    Is it TOO HOT FOR TEH MSM?

  • Hogan||

    BDB - just google around.

  • ||

    Well put Hogan. To quote Stan Laurel: "They are like two peas in a pod".

  • BDB||

    Will the newly established ACORN Stormtroopers force me to become a vegan and listen to NPR?

  • ||

    BDB,

    What Hogan is saying is true. That doesn't mean that Obama is going to appoint Ayers as SecDEF or give him a night in the Lincoln bedroom. But it does mean that Ayers and Obama ran in the same crowd and worked for the same ends in Chicago. I think it is pretty safe to assume that Ayers will get better access and more respectability if Obama wins. I mean hell the guy is already a prof at UIC. It is not like he isn't already mainstream in Chicago at least. What does that mean? Ayers will get a few million to waste on stupid projects that continue to make Chicago schools worse. Not exactly the end of the world, but it still sucks.

  • ||

    FYI:

    Nathan Bedford Forrest State Park

    And more from wiki:

    Obelisks in his memory were placed at his birthplace in Chapel Hill and at Nathan Bedford Forrest State Park near Camden. A statue of General Forrest was erected in Memphis's Nathan Bedford Forrest Park. A bust sculpted by Jane Baxendale is on display at the state capitol building in Nashville. The World War II Army base Camp Forrest in Tullahoma, Tennessee was named after him. It is now the site of the Arnold Engineering Development Center.

    Tennessee has dedicated 32 historical markers linked to Nathan Bedford Forrest, more than are dedicated to the three Presidents who came from the state-Andrew Jackson, James K. Polk, and Andrew Johnson.[citation needed] Finally, the Tennessee legislature established July 13 as "Nathan Bedford Forrest Day."



    "And that's what I like about the Sooouuutttthh!"

  • BDB||

    If you're going to talk about Ayers I'd like you to also talk about the Alaska Independence Party. If you want to talk about associations.

  • ||

    Its not really about Ayers.

    Its about Obama, what role Ayers has played in his life, what he did with the job Ayers got him at the Annenberg Foundation, and what it tells us about Obama that he has had a decades-long association with Ayers that has never repudiated and has tried to minimize/cover up.

  • ||

    Sugerfree,

    There are a few things you ought to know. First, Forrest was probably the finest cavalry commander of the war. Second, he and R.E. Lee were instrumental in making sure that Southern forces surrendered and went home in April 1965 rather than starting a partisan war like Jefferson Davis wanted them to. They both saved the South and the country a lot of pain. He did found the KKK, but when he founded it it was a joke organization for him and his war buddies. That is why the KKK has such ridiculous titles like grand wizard and such. He never intended it to be the terrorist organization it became and was never a part of the terror it perpetrated.

    Forrest was a slave trader and in many ways a bad guy. But he is no worse than many and gets unfairly I think slapped with the "started the KKK" mantra. He also never gets credit for helping to peacefully end the war.

  • BDB||

    John is right about Forrest, he regretted founding the Klan and worked for it's abolition later on.

  • ||

    "If you're going to talk about Ayers I'd like you to also talk about the Alaska Independence Party. If you want to talk about associations."

    They are not terrorists. They want to achieve their ends peacefully through an election. I don't agree with them, but it is a free country and they have a right to advocate peacefully and through elections for anything they like. To compare them to scum like Ayers who tried to kill people is really unfair and wrong.

  • ||

    Are you scared about the treasonous Alaska Independence Party having respectability and access when Sarah Palin becomes VP? No?

    When they start killing cops and bombing buildings, give me a call.

    Hell, when they start spending millions of dollars trying to subvert the Anchorage school system, give me a call.

  • BDB||

    So how is a guy (the founder of the AIP) that says his hatred for America is like the fires of hell any different from Rev. Wright?

  • Hogan||

    BDB -

    Party No. 1: Head of ticket had extensive, ten-year personal and political relationship with former head of Weathermen terrorist organization. They worked together on projects to help realize their common goal of injecting "social justice" theory into the Chicago school system.

    Party No. 2: Vice president's spouse was member of Alaskan secession party for seven years.

    You have a right to think those things are completely equivalent.

  • ||

    Yes. Forrest was one of the very first commanders to understand the effectiveness of completely mobile warfare.

  • economist||

    Ayers is no more batshit than your typical lefty liberal arts college professor.

    Which scares me shitless.

  • Grand Wizard of the South Park||

    Our next contest is "Who has the silliest thing on under their robe?"

  • economist||

    Sorry, my last post should have said "batshit insane" rather than just "batshit".

  • ||

    The yammering about the school reform work gives the game away. If you have a legitimate case about someone "palin' around with terrorists there," you talk about that.

    If you're segueing into education policy and theory, you're just doing ordinary left-right shit, and acknowledging that the alleged terrorist sympathies are bullshit.

  • BDB||

    I just want everyone to promise they won't scream about ACORN stealing the election.

  • ||

    You know, there aren't many things I could think of that would convince me to vote for Obama or McCain, but if either of them strangled Ayers with their bare hands, I might reconsider.

    -jcr

  • economist||

    "Viva la Revolucion"
    Given that in most socialist/communist states setting bombs in government buildings is often grounds (if not always officially, at least in practice) for summary execution, he might want to take back that statement. Oh, that's right, he doesn't have to worry because it won't happen in his lifetime.

  • economist||

    In the US, that is.

  • ||

    BTW, regarding the KKK. It's worth pointing out that at the height of its terrorist activities, it was basically the armed faction of the Democratic party. During the occupation, the resistance consisted of two parts, pretty much like Sinn Fein and the IRA.

    -jcr

  • Hogan||

    Joe - It's two issues.

    A) Many people would refuse to associate with Ayers because of his loathsomeness. Obama didn't, and they were political associates and (reportedly) friends. You might not care, which is straight, but many people probably would. Especially since this kind of thing is a trend with him.

    B) Probably not that important to many people (which is why I'm sure McCain won't bother with it), but they did have a radical education agenda they worked on together. This emphasizes that Obama is much further to the idiot left than he presents himself.

    Won't matter to some people. For me it's like reasons #5689 and #5690 why Obama should not be president.

  • Ben||

    Is Chicago the new Massachusetts, which of course was the new Arkansas?

  • BDB||

    Won't matter to some people anyone but the Republican base.

  • ||

    John,

    I know plenty about the Civil War, thanks. It's a large part of what I do for a living. The after-the-fact canonization of Confederates like Forrest is, was, and will also be the most sickening aspect of the post-war South. It was only the general amnesty that kept Forrest and many like him from being hung as war criminals.

    The South may not be honoring him for creating the KKK, but they shouldn't be honoring him for what he did in the war either:

    Fort Pillow

    On April 12, 1864, General Forrest led his forces in the attack and capture of Fort Pillow on the Mississippi River in Henning, Tennessee. The Battle of Fort Pillow led to great controversy about whether a massacre of surrendered African-American Union troops was conducted or condoned by General Forrest.

    Forrest's men insisted that the Federals, although fleeing, kept their weapons and frequently turned to shoot, forcing the Confederates to keep firing in self defense.. The Union flag was still flying over the fort, which indicated that the force had not formally surrendered. A contemporary newspaper account from Jackson, Tennessee, states that "General Forrest begged them to surrender," but "not the first sign of surrender was ever given." Similar accounts were reported in many Southern newspapers at the time.

    These denials, however, are contradicted by accounts of the massacre found in the letters of the Confederate soldiers who were there. Achilles Clark, a soldier with the 20th Tennessee cavalry, wrote the following in a letter to his sister penned immediately after the battle. "The slaughter was awful. Words cannot describe the scene. The poor, deluded, negroes would run up to our men, fall upon their knees, and with uplifted hands scream for mercy but they were ordered to their feet and then shot down. I, with several others, tried to stop the butchery, and at one time had partially succeeded, but General Forrest ordered them shot down like dogs and the carnage continued. Finally our men became sick of blood and the firing ceased."



    Tell me again how the KKK was all just a joke.

    No culture that erects monuments to and names elementary schools after a fuckhead like that has any legitimacy or sense of honor.

  • ||

    I understand the talking points just fine, Hogan.

    You use the Weathermen background to make the education reform seem really scary, and then use the scary education reform to make Ayers look like he's still a terrorist. Why is Hussein palin' around with a guy who's a terrorist?

    For me it's like reasons #5689 and #5690 why Obama should not be president. That is precisely who this will matter to.

  • Ben||

    Remember, Chicago is an awful place because people hang out with Bill Ayers there.

    But the South is the Real America, where they build statues to people who made war against the USA.

    Ok. Right.

  • Just Plain Brian||

    I once joked that there should be a pool on who gets to spend a night in Lincoln Bedroom first, Ayers and Dorn or Jerimiah Wright



    That's not even a contest - it will be Michael Dorn, and it damn well should be. I mean, the guy played Lt. Commander Worf, he should at least get to stay in the Lincoln bedroom.

  • ||

    No culture that erects monuments to and names elementary schools after a fuckhead like that has any legitimacy or sense of honor.

    So, you'll be demolishing the Lincoln memorial, I take it?

    -jcr

  • ||

    Tell me again how the KKK was all just a joke.

    It is interesting to see such a...NUANCED meditation on guilt and its attenuation on coming from someone pushing the "Ayers means Obama is a terrorist!" line.

  • ||

    I am fully aware of the Fort Pillow incident. Of course we errect monuments to Sherman as well. He sent out Confederate prisoners to clear mindfields. It was a nasty war. Regardless of what happened at Pillow, Forrest started the KKK as a joke and never supported its terrorist activities. Further, Forrest always claimed that the troops at Fort Pillow didn't surrender. Is he right or the letter right? I don't know and neither do you.

    BTW, I am anything but a Southern sympathizer. I just think the hatred of Forrest is overblown.

  • ||

    Good god, the narrow minded ignorance in these comments astounds. The scary thing is that some of you are actually old enough to vote, even if just barely.

  • BDB||

    How many Americans did Forrest kill?

  • ||

    As for reasons why Obama shouldn't be president, palling around with washed-up terrorist has-beens is pretty low on the list for me, too. I would put voting to ensure the onset of the second great depression up at the top of the list.

    -jcr

  • ||

    Joe,

    It doesn't mean Obama is a terrorist. It just means that Obama has terrible judgment about his friends and no moral backbone. He sat for 20 years and listened to Wright's hate mongering and did nothing. Do I think he agrees with Wright? No. But, I think that Obama really doesn't care what Wright thinks and only cared that going to the church got him somewhere. It is the same thing with Ayers. Knowing Ayers was good for Obama so it didn't matter that Ayers is a scumbag. This story is important not because Obama and Michelle are going to be out planting bombs. It is important because it shows Obama to be a pretty unprincipled opportunist.

  • Ymichelson||

    Black nationalism

    Southern nationalism

    related? the same?

  • ||

    Forrest started the KKK as a joke and never supported its terrorist activities

    They adopted the hoods and capes for the specific purpose of terrorizing freed slaves during night rides. That costume was created with the founding of the Klan. That was the fun Forrest intended to enjoy with his war buddies.

  • Hogan||

    Joe -

    I wasn't intentionally blending the terror history and the education reform. If it came off that way forgive it - an inelegance of expression. The education reform isn't "scary," it's just really stupid and suggests that Obama enjoys him some stupid, New Left policy ideas. That Ayers is now in education reform isn't why his terrorism is still relevant. I think a lot of that has to do with his insistence that he still thinks what he did was right, and that he thought this throughout his relationship with Obama.

    That you or others don't care is fine. I wasn't insisting that you reconsider your estimation of Obama. If only the Republican base will care, surely the man will come out and own up that at the very least Ayers was more than a guy in his neighborhood. Shouldn't be any electoral consequences at all.

    Not to insist that this be that last word or anything, but I'm bowing out from this thread for lunch.

  • BDB||

    "Black nationalism

    Southern nationalism

    related? the same?"

    I'd say the former is a horrible reaction to the latter.

  • ||

    "Black nationalism

    Southern nationalism

    related? the same?"

    Close to the same and if obama were chumming around with Nathan Bedford Forest he would have a lot to answer for.

  • Abdul||

    I don't know how this thread became a civil war reanctors messaging board, but I once heard a "fact" that Nathan Bedford Forrest holds the record for American generals (if you define "american" to include confederates) for most people personally killed by his own hands.

    Y'all know if that's true?

  • ||

    This story is important not because Obama and Michelle are going to be out planting bombs. It is important because it shows Obama to be a pretty unprincipled opportunist.

    Wait a minute, I thought it showed that he was a devoted radical.

    And also, that he doesn't see America the way real Americans did.

    This story seems to show whatever spin the GOP decides to put on it on any particular day, or event.

  • BDB||

    It means, "oh shit oh shit oh shit we're about to lose" is what it means.

  • ||

    if obama were chumming around with Nathan Bedford Forest he would have a lot to answer for.

    Oh, I think I'd forgive an awful lot if he invented a time machine. That could come in very handy.

    -jcr

  • ||

    palin' around.

    chummin' around.

    Oh, gersh, you even see the language kinda seepin' down, dotcha?

  • economist||

    So...Obama pals around with socialists who hate America?

    I'm shocked, simply shocked.

  • BDB||

    I'd like to know why McCain didn't start the swiftboating back in July.

    It doesn't work 28 days out when your opponent has higher favorabilities (and ones well over 50%) and lower negatives than you do.

  • SIV||

    Nathan Bedford Forrest bashing?

    I'm refusing to be trolled.

  • ||

    In the spirit of giving credit where credit is due, I will thank Barack Obama for removing the threat of a Hillary Clinton presidency for at least one election cycle.

    -jcr

  • SIV||

    if you define "american" to include confederates)

    I'll bite on this one. What does the "A" stand for in CSA ? The Confederate States broke away from the Union. They remained American.

  • ||

    Is he right or the letter right? I don't know and neither do you.

    Of course we'll never know. But when weighing the testimony of someone who has every interest in lying, and someone who has no interest in lying--indeed no reason to bring up what he is testifying about except as a confession to his moral revulsion in a private letter to his daughter--where does jurisprudence find the balance? What would you do as a lawyer, John?

    I don't give a crap about Forrest, really, but the canonization of every side and every personage in the Civil War sickens me to the core.

  • ||

    joe, do you think it tells us anything at all about Obama that he has had a long, professionally significant relationship with Bill Ayers?

    Or do you think it is just not relevant who a Presidential candidate's associates are?

  • ||

    Honestly,

    I don't think Obama is a radical. I don't think he is anyting. He is Bill Clinton without the bimbos or the exceptional intelligence. If he wins, and I am not convinced he will, he will let the left go haywire just like Bill did, get his ass kicked in the off year election and then start back peddling and trying to save himself. He really is an empty suit who doesn't know much beyond the fact that it is good to be Obama.

  • BDB||

    That doesn't sound so bad compared to the guy we have in there now, John.

  • ||

    The Bill Ayers angle hasn't worked the last 6 to 8 months, what makes McCain think its going to work now? Is this an Ayers Surge?

  • BDB||

    Lamar--

    McCain is fucking desperate, that's why.

  • ||

    yes or no question.

    Was John McCain personally involved in torture of a prisoner for over 5 years as a member of the U.S. Navy?


    there. see how that works?

  • ||

    BDB,

    The only real danger of an Obama administration is that world leaders know that Bush will come and screw them over if they fuck with him. Putin and company are going to look at Obama and laugh their asses off. They are going to try to work him over just like Kruschev did to Kennedy. The problem is that no US President, not even one as weak as Obama can be that weak. If they push him far enough, we might get a real war. Kennedy damn near gave us World War III over Cuba. The other problem is that out of fear of looking weak, he will go looking for a war. He will go out and try to be more Catholic than the pope to prove he is not as weak as everyone thinks he is.

  • ||

    "Do you think it tells us anything at all about Obama that he has had a long, professionally significant relationship with Bill Ayers?"

    Whenever I see that formulation, I always wonder why they leave the "anything at all" to our imagination. What exactly does it say? Ask yourself if it says something that can't equally be said about McCain. Only then will you have traction.

  • ||

    That's not even a contest - it will be Michael Dorn, and it damn well should be. I mean, the guy played Lt. Commander Worf, he should at least get to stay in the Lincoln bedroom.

    Worf is a traitor to the Klingon Empire! He fought on Chancellor Gowron's behalf in the Klingon Civil War!

    (it is rare that we can parallel a Civil War argument over the merits of a particular General with Star Trek)

  • ||

    If only the Republican base will care, surely the man will come out and own up that at the very least Ayers was more than a guy in his neighborhood. Shouldn't be any electoral consequences at all.

    Right, the only possible reason a political candidate doesn't devote his campaign to discussing attacks brought up by his opponent is a knowledge of guilt.

    Gersh, why won't John McCain give a speech about how he's not too old to be president?

  • SIV||

    SugarFree
    What collections are in your library?
    Just curious, I'm a relatively inactive Americana collector. I've bought, sold and handled Civil War photographica.

  • BDB||

    John--

    The world is laughing at Bush right now because they know he can't do shit with two wars going on because our army is tied down. If we didn't have Iraq or Afghanistan on our plate Putin would have never gone into Georgia.

  • BDB||

    Not to mention, the Iranian President wouldn't be running off at the mouth nearly as much.

  • ||

    RC,

    joe, do you think it tells us anything at all about Obama that he has had a long, professionally significant relationship with Bill Ayers? I guess that's one way of describing "served on charitable boards with" someone.

    Not one an honest person would use, but a way nonetheless.

    Oh, to answer your question - no, it doesn't tell me anything that he served on charitable boards with a guy who used to be a bomb thrower in the SixtiesMan, and later became an educrat and college professor. It tells me less than the fact that he attended Trinity United Church.

  • ||

    "If we didn't have Iraq or Afghanistan on our plate Putin would have never gone into Georgia."


    Yes he would have. What are we going to do about Georgia, go to war with Russia? I don't think so. We could have done nothing about 9-11 and given Bin Ladin that tenured position at the Kennedy School, they no doubt would like to give him, and Putin still would have played local bad boy with Georgia. The thing with Georgia has nothing to do with us and everything to do with Russia running out of people and wanting to take back every Russian minority they can find.

  • Abdul||

    SIV,

    I suppose I could have been more clear. I meant "american" as in "citizen of the United States of America." Under your definition of "american," canadians and argentinians could be "americans" because they come from the American continents.

    Some confederates have refused to acknowledge citizenship in the USA. I believe former president John Tyler said something before his death of being proud to die a citizen of the CSA and not the USA. While Forrest lived on after the war, he was never an American general in the sense that he served in the USA.

  • ||

    world leaders know that Bush will come and screw them over if they fuck with him

    Right, like Russia in Georgia. Or Pakistan. Or North Korea. Or the Chinese. They're just quaking in their boots over Bush's tough talk.

  • BDB||

    I do know McCain's response to Georgia made me swear I would never ever vote for him after that point. He really his jonesing to re-fight the Cold War.

  • ||

    We could have done nothing about 9-11 and given Bin Ladin that tenured position at the Kennedy School, they no doubt would like to give him...

    I suppose it's possible that we'll see people who don't talk like this who consider Bill Ayers to be important.

    But so far, not so much.

  • BDB||

    Oh, and Palin would be a real tough cookie if McCain croaks. Yes, sir. Putin would shit himself!

  • ||

    Joe,

    Obama, if he is ever President will get a real education in reality once in office. After he goes out and grovels to Putin and Iran and finds out that doesn't work, it is going to be a real sad day in the Whitehouse. If it wasn't the country involved, it would be funny to watch. The only thing that really worries me about an Obama Presidency is his use of thuggery against opponents like in Missouri. It is not like the MSM will ever do anything to watchdog him and anyone who criticizes him will be immediately tagged a racist. I honestly can't imagine him doing anything that would actually draw real criticism from the media once he is in office. A President with the MSM functioning as essentially a ministry of truth is pretty scary. I am not sure what he would do with that power, but it is more than a bit unnerving.

  • Just Plain Brian||

    Oh, and Palin would be a real tough cookie if McCain croaks. Yes, sir. Putin would shit himself!



    Well, during her watch Putin has never reared his head into her airspace. Coincidence? I think not.

  • SIV||

    Abdul,

    I'm saying holding allegiance to their State over that of the Union didn't make the Confederates any less American, particularly by the standards prevailing antebellum.

  • BDB||

    Palin's foreign policy would either to be walked all over by everyone in the world because she would be seen as a complete joke, or to try to bring on the End Times and the rapture.

  • BDB||

    "The only thing that really worries me about an Obama Presidency is his use of thuggery against opponents like in Missouri. "

    You know who wrote the law that allows him to do that, right?

  • ||

    BDB,

    I can't see Palin as joke anymore than OBama. The man has litteraly done nothing in his life. He was head of the CAC, which he now says was no big deal because he didn't know Ayers. He has been a boringly liberal Senator for two years and he was editor of his law review. I am surprised his Campaign doesn't put out that he was presdent of his thrid grade madress class. Oh he wrote two biographies about all of the things he hasn't ever accomplished.

    Palin was a former sports caster who came from no where to be governor of a state. That is pretty kick ass when you think about. All Obama has ever done is kiss ass and make crooked deals in Chicago. And last I looked Palin wasn't running for President.

  • BDB||

    When the guy at the top of the ticket is 72 years old and has had cancer twice, you may as well be running for President.

  • ||

    BDB,

    Yes, that is how it is going to work. All of Obama's sins will be excused because the other side is worse. You are picking right up on it. One thing is for sure, if the dumb bastard wins, I don't want to hear one peep our of Reason once he is in office. They have been in the tank for him for a year now. They clearly want what they may get.

  • BDB||

    Calling Alaska a "state" is a bit much. My county has more people in it. I don't see my County Executive being qualified to be President.

  • BDB||

    My county also has a bigger budget, for God's sake.

  • Just Plain Brian||

    The man has litteraly done nothing in his life.



    For fuck's sake, john, that's not what that word means.

  • ||

    SIV,

    We collect by family and donation-groups so the general Civil War stuff is scattered, but primarily we have the papers of the Breckinridge, Hunt-Morgan, Preston, Clay, Todd, and Johnston families.

  • ||

    He is Bill Clinton without the bimbos or the exceptional intelligence.

    Anyone who gets better grades than me is "exceptionally intelligent" in my book.

    Although anyone who doesn't agree with my opinions gets marked down. So I'm in a little bit of a quandary on Obama.

    joe, do you think it tells us anything at all about Obama that he has had a long, professionally significant relationship with Bill Ayers?

    I guess that's one way of describing "served on charitable boards with" someone.


    joe, his relationship with Ayers goes much deeper and further back than that. In all probability, anyway, because there has been a pretty successful coverup of that relationship, aided and abetted by a media with no interest in investigating Obama's past.

    I suggest this this as a good place to start. I can't get through from this computer to the specific posts that detail what we know, what the gaps are, and what Obama's evasions and half-truths have been, but there's a lot more to their relationship than Obama's initial "oh, we were just neighbors" story.

  • ||

    But what does Obama's association with Ayers say about Obama that can't be said about McCain? I don't mean to say there isn't something, but I just couldn't care less about the whole thing. Give me a reason instead of just making the accusation in a glaring tone and acting indignant about it.

  • Asharak||

    I think it's funny how just because Bill Ayers is a douchebag, ersatz libertarians like John and SIV are using that as another excuse to keep kissing the asses of drug-warring, wiretap-loving Republicans who will never accept them.

    And Hogan, Obama IS a New Democrat.

  • Lmao||

    New democrat???

    Wtf is that?

  • BDB||

    Asharak--

    It's especially rich when they yammer about how Obama will use the expanded executive branch--which Republicans passed laws to expand--to bring about Teh Libruh Fascism.

    Where were these people in 2002?

  • Asharak||

    But what does Obama's association with Ayers say about Obama that can't be said about McCain? I don't mean to say there isn't something, but I just couldn't care less about the whole thing. Give me a reason instead of just making the accusation in a glaring tone and acting indignant about it.

    The Obama camp can (and likely will) just as easily bring up McCain palling around with John Hagee or all of that wacky stuff Sarah Palin's pastor has said, not to mention the blatantly anti-American Alaska secessionist movement her husband used to be a part of.

  • BDB||

    Asharak--

    They won't bring it up. They don't have to. They have an eight point lead 28 days out.

  • ||

    Palin was a former sports caster who came from no where to be governor of a state. That is pretty kick ass when you think about. All Obama has ever done is kiss ass and make crooked deals in Chicago.

    It is more impressive for a middle class girl to become Alaska's governor than for a kid who was on food stamps to become a United States Senator and beat a Clinton for the Presidential nomination.

    Apparently, because Alaska is better than Chicago, or something. Oh, I know, it's because the politicians in Chicago are corrupt!

  • ||

    New democrat???

    Wtf is that?


    "I heard he carved it from an even bigger spoon."

  • ||

    joe, actually it's because john's head is so far up palin's ass he is now channeling trigg.

  • ||

    joe, his relationship with Ayers goes much deeper and further back than that. In all probability, anyway, because there has been a pretty successful coverup of that relationship, aided and abetted by a media with no interest in investigating Obama's past.

    But you know it anyway. If only he'd post his birth certificate!

    LMAO, I've got an idea: why don't you type "New Democrat" into the google, and see what pops up, THEN laugh at somebody for using a term you don't recognize. Just a heads up.

  • ||

    brotherben,

    And when he kinda rises up into our sorta ass space, where are they?

    Alaska.

  • BDB||

    After re-reading the comments, I'd like to know, which is it:

    Is Obama a weak-need Jimmy Carter, or a brutal Chicago thug?

  • ||

    BDB,

    yes

  • BDB||

    Er, weak-kneed.

  • Hogan||

    I suspect that the Ayers back-and-forth has exhausted itself. Joe and BDB, surprisingly!, don't care. Others do. But, Asharak, how do you justify calling Obama a New Democrat?

  • BDB||

    Also, is he a radical leftist or crass triangulator?

  • BDB||

    Did you hear about his birth certificate, Hogan?

  • ||

    Joe and BDB, surprisingly!, don't care.

    BDB wasn't around then, but given how I freaked out when the Wright video surfaced, your irony falls flat.

  • ||

    BDB, it's because them islams don't keep good fambly records.

  • BDB||

    BTW, Jerome Corsi has been detained in Kenya for having an improper visa.

  • Hogan||

    BDB - in terms of his political tactics (knocking his opponents of the ballot in his first race, trying to silence critics, etc...) I'd say he's an aggressive machine politician. In terms of his foreign policy instincts, I'd say he's a Carter. They're not mutually exclusive. Nor, to Joe, is it inconceivable that Obama is a "pretty unprincipled opportunist," "radical," who "doesn't see America the way real Americans did." All three are likely true and all three are demonstrated in his relationship with Ayers.

    The "wait yer saying he's X and also Y?!?!?! hahaha gotcha!" defense is a weak one.

  • Gilbert Martin||

    Here's a link to an excellent article by Thomas Sowell who points out that Ayers didn't just have an "association" with Ayers - he had an alliance with him.

    http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZmM1NzBkNGI4MGRkZjFmOTg4ZjU3ODVjNmE5ZGM0OGI=


    And here's another one by Stanley Kurtz who details Obama's ties to ACORN which was a player in enabling the subprime mortgage mess (and is involved in voter fraud schemes all over the country).

    http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZjRjYzE0YmQxNzU4MDJjYWE5MjIzMTMxMmNhZWQ1MTA=

  • Hogan||

    Joe - forgive me, I wasn't around re: Wright. BDB - I don't care about his birth certificate and am not claiming to.

  • BDB||

    Thomas Sowell, while he writes excellent books, is a godawful hack as a columnist.

  • ACORN Stormtrooper||

    I'm coming to get you, Gilbert Martin!!!

    I'll put you in the Gary, IN Liberal Fascist Gulag!

  • Gilbert Martin||

    Sowell is an excellent columnist - and an excellent author as well.

  • BDB||

    His columns aren't even in the same writer's "voice". I'm damn near convince they're ghost written by an RNC intern.

  • ||

    "Sowell is an excellent columnist - and an excellent author as well."

    Sowell knows economics, but he's just a dick on social issues. I don't want medical advice from a plumber, and I don't want moral direction from an economics professor.

  • SIV||

    SugarFree,

    Wow, you have a really great job!

    Got any spare original copies of Bennett H. Young's Prehistoric Men of Kentucky?

  • BDB||

    Lamar--

    Exactly. It's like how you can respect Chomsky as a linguist, but he's still a socialist dickhead when it comes to politics.

  • ||

    Asharak-

    Obama IS a New Democrat.

    No.

    Here's the first hit at google. I see a Clinton and a Richardson, but no Obama.

    Also, from wiki's entry on the DLC entry- "...while nominee Senator Barack Obama opposes the DLC - in 2003, he discussed why his positions against parts of NAFTA, the War in Iraq, and in support of universal healthcare were at odds with the DLC, saying that "... these positions make me an unlikely candidate for membership in the DLC. That is why I am not currently, nor have I ever been, a member of the DLC."

    Try again.

  • ||

    Here's a link to... National Review magazine.

    Thanks for that.

    I say this a liberal Democrat whose most frequently-read source of information on politics is Reason dot com: What sort of idiot would care about what appears in National Review magazine? Isn't there a Jack Chick pamphlet you can link to?

  • BDB||

    He links to National Review because this story is just Too Hot For Teh MSM.

  • ||

    SIV,

    It looks like we have a couple; we have an intense but friendly rivalry with The Filson Club. No smuggling out of books is on tap, but if you just want to read it, the whole thing is online here.

  • Asharak||

    No.

    Here's the first hit at google. I see a Clinton and a Richardson, but no Obama.

    Also, from wiki's entry on the DLC entry- "...while nominee Senator Barack Obama opposes the DLC - in 2003, he discussed why his positions against parts of NAFTA, the War in Iraq, and in support of universal healthcare were at odds with the DLC, saying that "... these positions make me an unlikely candidate for membership in the DLC. That is why I am not currently, nor have I ever been, a member of the DLC."

    Try again.


    Then he flip-flopped and said NAFTA wasn't so bad after all, and his "universal health care" plans still keeps the insurance companies in charge.

  • Asharak||

    plans=plan

  • SIV||

    SugarFree
    I hadn't googled the location of those family papers so I thought you might work at The Filson.

    Special collections libraries should de-accession duplicate and out of scope material(and in a formal open sale/auction). I used to bid in the William L. Clements Library sales, among others.I can't afford that hobby any more, a matter of time as much as having better things to spend and save the money for.

  • Gilbert Martin||

    "I say this a liberal Democrat..."

    Which is absolute defacto proof of you being the idiot right there.

    What you think about National Review is of no consequence.

  • Asharak||

    Sowell is an excellent columnist - and an excellent author as well.

    Sowell believes World War II internment camps were justified. Care to explain this position on a libertarian site?

  • ||

    ...and his "universal health care" plans still keeps the insurance companies in charge.

    And isn't universal. Even Hillary offered a universal plan.

    Which is absolute defacto proof of you being the idiot right there. Oh, OK, Gil. Just as long as you aren't letting partisanship bias your opinions.

    I'm sure you find every word in Jonah Goldberg Weekly quite compelling, right down the descriptions of how video of Sarah Palin makes the writers feel.

  • ||

    SIV,

    State accounting rules screws that up for most institutions. For example, we have a very large commercial record collection that falls outside our collecting interest. We can't sell or give it away it to the public or sell or give it away it to another institution. Our options are to pack them off to our remote facility for another 4 decades or throw them away. It's got so bad we don't even have good old library sales anymore. We send unwanted gifts and de-accessioned titles it to the public library for free so they can sell them. It's retarded.

    It's a nice job, but to be in an institution that cannot even conceive of how to run itself as a successful business, filled with people who don't have even the basic grasp of economics that most of illiterate trolls have is extremely tiring at times.

    It does prove a lot of teachable moments for my student workers, though.

  • Hogan||

    Asharak - while Obama rather gracelessly pivoted on several issues over the summer to recast himself as a centrist, there is nothing in his record to suggest that he's anything beyond a conventional liberal, of the pre-Clinton "Old" Democrat sort. If welfare reform is sort of a litmus for having triangulating sympathies, it's worth noting that Obama vocally opposed it at the time and now claims, falsely, to have supported it.

    It's the difference between actually working like a New Democrat in office and just mouthing positions (supports 2nd amendment, free trade's not so bad, supports offshore drilling) that contradict your former statements and voting record because you see the electoral value of doing so.

    Joe - I agree that National Review is mostly boring and douchey. But you don't come off well for reacting to the source of a link rather than its substance.

  • Chloe||

    I love the title of the graphic for this post.

  • SIV||

    Too bad,

    I know what you are talking about though. I have several nice and desirable pieces that are unique and/or unrecorded that I would love to have traded to institutions in exchange for duplicate or out of scope material.All they could offer was a tax deduction.I couldn't even pry duplicate modern reference books loose in exchange.

  • ||

    Hogan,

    Obama was attacked on the left by Hillary Clinton for his health care plan, and that's going back to 2007.

  • Asharak||

    What's really sad about all of this is that McCain and Palin might have still had a shot at pulling ahead if they pushed the taxes issue more. But instead, they took this desperate path when they should know full well that they also have plenty of skeletons in the closet themselves. It's rather pathetic.

  • Hogan||

    Joe - There's one. Any other examples at all? Any examples from his actual legislative career?

    This was originally brought up when I noted that "he was purported to have New Democrat-like attitudes towards school choice"" Which he was, because he had made a few vague statements that suggested he wasn't doctrinaire on that issue. After that sank in enough to give the impression of centrism his campaign clarified that "Throughout his career, he has voted against voucher proposals and voiced concern for siphoning off resources from our public schools." Same case with affirmative action, union policy, etc...

    Lots of talk from Obama about moderation, very little in evidence. If you like him because y'all are both liberal Democrats, that's fine. But you can't play him as a centrist New Democrat because he isn't one.

  • BDB||

    Hogan--

    Voters, in poll after poll, call Obama a "liberal" by a large margin, but still give him a lead in the same polls.

  • BDB||

    IOW, calling him a liberal or leftist isn't going to get you very far, because the voters already know that. And they're voting for him, anyway.

  • ||

    Ironically, the Weathermen never killed anyone-- with accidental exception of two of their own members in a Village apartment in 1970--in any of their bombings. In fact, this group called in bomb threats to clear buildings prior to exploding them specifically to save lives. It is still terrorism, but in the end-of-Fight-Club kind of way, not the Al-Qaeda-kill-the-infidel kind of way. In fact, as crazy as his politics were/are, Bill Ayers seems like a pretty nice guy, if you ever actually meet him. He spoke to class I attended on the Vietnam War. Whereas, the speakers that came in to discuss the pro-war POV all seemed extreme, angry or tired. Not much unlike the Republican nominee that is running against Obama.

  • ||

    Any other examples at all? Any examples from his actual legislative career?

    He cosponsored a global warming bill with John McCain - a pretty tame one, that relied on carbon credit trading.

    He sponsored an Iraq War bill that called for a timeline for withdrawal, and when that failed, he voted for the 'emergency' appropriations bills without timelines - as opposed to the leftier members of the caucus, who voted to cut off funds.

    BTW, as far as political affinity goes, I wanted a universal health care plan and hardball on the Iraq War funding.

  • ||

    asharak,
    good point, their may be substantive issues where the right and the swing voters could be brought back in, but they decided to sling poo instead. Is that McCain/ Palins way of saying that voters in the U.S. of A. are, as a general rule, voyeuristic dumbasses?

  • Hogan||

    BDB - I don't care. If people want liberalism, by all means they can get it. I don't (I used to be very liberal until college and then smartened up), so I don't support Obama. I'm not part of the McCain campaign so I don't care if this will "get me very far." I'm glad that large margins among the polled understand that Obama is liberal though Joe and Asharak may demur.

    Tom - They bombed a San Francisco police station that killed a guy and killed two cops and a security guard in the Brinks robbery in 1981. They stuffed their bombs with nails and shit, the only purpose of which would be to increase human damage. Though it was nice of them to clear the buildings involved.

  • Hogan||

    Joe - meh. I don't know that those examples qualify for him to be numbered as a centrist in my book.

  • ||

    BDB, good points as well. Obama has said from the beginning of the race that he intended to tax the wealthy to help the poor. And redefine our infrastructure and energy needs using government monies. more wealth redistribution.
    No big surprises from a democrat. IMO the problem McCain has is that many many voters see their empty pockets as the result of the evil rich and they are ready for some bloodletting. If McCain gets far enough left to sing that song, he loses most republican voters.

  • Asharak||

    Asharak - while Obama rather gracelessly pivoted on several issues over the summer to recast himself as a centrist, there is nothing in his record to suggest that he's anything beyond a conventional liberal, of the pre-Clinton "Old" Democrat sort. If welfare reform is sort of a litmus for having triangulating sympathies, it's worth noting that Obama vocally opposed it at the time and now claims, falsely, to have supported it.

    Obama is socially liberal, yes, but he's no Dennis Kucinich.

    Amd for the record, I'm reluctantly voting for Bob Barr.

  • ||

    In fact, as crazy as his politics were/are, Bill Ayers seems like a pretty nice guy, if you ever actually meet him.

    And Stalin was supposed to be quite charming, in person.

    But you know it anyway. If only he'd post his birth certificate!

    No, joe, I've read some pretty interesting articles aggregating the piecemeal reporting on the relationship and the ever-shifting Obama account of it.

    Its pretty clear Obama has been minimizing and avoiding giving a full accounting of a guy who was pretty significant to his early career (first fundraiser, instrumental in his foundation chairmanship); a politician who is minimizing and ducking and weaving on his associates should give you pause.

    But its easier just to stick your fingers in your ears, I guess.

  • Hogan||

    RC Dean - One of my favorite Stalin anecdotes is from McCullough's biography of Truman. Marshall apparently met with Stalin in 1947 to talk about Soviet intentions in Eastern Europe and found him uncooperative. Apparently he spent the whole time doodling wolves with a red pencil. Which I think is tight.

  • ||

    Hogan,

    I think we might be talking past each other.

    If you draw a line down the middle of the country, Obama is to the left of that line; ie, a liberal.

    The question is whether, within the area left of center, he is a liberal or a moderate. He's a moderate, more like Clinton than Kucinich. He's maybe a hair to the left of the DLC. He's not even as liberal as Dodd or Pelosi.

  • ||

    RC,

    No, joe, I've read some pretty interesting articles aggregating the piecemeal reporting on the relationship and the ever-shifting Obama account of it.

    And I've read some pretty interesting articles from Laurie Mylroie aggregating the piecemeal reporting about the links between Saddam Hussein, 9/11, and the Oklahoma City bombing.

    I think we've been reading the same web sites.

    Doesn't anything strike you as odd about accusing a liberal who frequents Hit & Run of sticking his fingers in his ears?

  • Jim Treacher||

    No way I'm voting for that guy.

    How about his protégé?

  • ||

    Ah, now he's his "protege."

    This is the sound of a campaign swirling the drain.

  • Hogan||

    Worth pointing out, in the aftermath of accusations that Obama is a centrist and even a New Democrat, that he was cited multiple times as a member of the hard left New Party in 1996. The Party was specifically designed by the Democratic Socialists of America to try to drag the Dems away from DLC style centrism.

    Reaction predictions (if any):
    1. He heh you're linking to a conservative blog.
    2. Did you hear about his birth certificate? heh heh !!
    3. It won't matter cuz joe doesn't care!!!

    Pre-emptive response: just pointing this out to refute the idea that Obama has moderate instincts.

    And I'd also say that when someone hosts your political coming-out party and gives you your first real executive political position - yeah, that's like a protege.

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