Reason Magazine
- reason.com
- reason.tv
- reason.org
- Donate
- Site Search:
Reason on Facebook
Reason on Twitter
Reason on YouTube
Reason RSSGet Reason E-mail Updates!
Manage your Reason e-mail list subscriptionsadvertisements
The One and Only Billy Ayers...
I'm not convinced
that painting former Weather Underground
jefe Bill Ayers and Democratic presidential candidate
Barack Obama as a post-American Century version of Brian Piccolo and Gale
Sayers is a) effective negative politics or b)
particularly relevant in the glimmering twilight of late capitalism
(by which I mean of course enduring capitalism that will hopefully
still be around to help increase my kids' standard of living every
bit as much as it has mine). As someone who lives in Ohio half the
time, I've seen the McCain "Know Enough?" attack
ad about Ayers a million times. My seven-year-old son thought
it was convincing; my 14-year-old thought it was irrelevant and
weak. Go figure.
But Bill "I don't regret setting bombs" Ayers really is a jackass of the highest degree and deserves all the opprobrium this latest turn in the spotlight affords (his last big burst of publicity came from the ill-timed release of his kaboom-filled autobiography right around the 9/11 attacks; not a good moment to talk about, other things, blowing up the Pentagon).
Here's City Journal's Sol Stern with a strong piece about Ayers' post-radical life as an "education reformer":
Calling Bill Ayers a school reformer is a bit like calling Joseph Stalin an agricultural reformer. (If you find the metaphor strained, consider that Walter Duranty, the infamous New York Times reporter covering the Soviet Union in the 1930s, did, in fact, depict Stalin as a great land reformer who created happy, productive collective farms.) For instance, at a November 2006 education forum in Caracas, Venezuela, with President Hugo Chávez at his side, Ayers proclaimed his support for "the profound educational reforms under way here in Venezuela under the leadership of President Chávez. We share the belief that education is the motor-force of revolution. . . . I look forward to seeing how you continue to overcome the failings of capitalist education as you seek to create something truly new and deeply humane." Ayers concluded his speech by declaring that "Venezuela is poised to offer the world a new model of education - a humanizing and revolutionary model whose twin missions are enlightenment and liberation," and then, as in days of old, raised his fist and chanted: "Viva Presidente Chávez! Viva la Revolucion Bolivariana! Hasta la Victoria Siempre!"
|10.7.08 @ 9:33AM|#
"What did you learn in school today?"
"I learned that America is a racist, militarist country and that
the capitalist system is inherently unfair and oppressive."
School reformers may just save us all.
PR|10.7.08 @ 9:37AM|#
"Viva Presidente Chávez! Viva la Revolucion Bolivariana!
Hasta la Victoria Siempre!"
easy there Bill, you sound like joe.
Abdul|10.7.08 @ 9:39AM|#
the glimmering twilight of late capitalism (by which I mean
of course enduring capitalism that will hopefully still be around
to help increase my kids' standard of living every bit as much as
it has mine)
I picture Nick Gillespie's kids playing "Monoploy" in a hidden room
in the basement when there's a sudden, ominous knock at the door. .
. .
Hogan|10.7.08 @ 9:40AM|#
Another very good Sol Stern article about Ayers and "social justice" education here. Worth knowing about since these kinds of projects were apparently what Obama and Ayers were throwing millions at.
Hogan|10.7.08 @ 9:42AM|#
Just pisses me off, like a billion things about Obama, because I was very favorable to his candidacy back last December when he was purported to have New Democrat-like attitudes towards school choice (and, OT, affirmative action). Instead he's about as stupid lefty as you can get on this shit.
|10.7.08 @ 9:44AM|#
Hogan, your hope for change has changed? If so, then Obama did bring you change!
Jerry|10.7.08 @ 9:51AM|#
late capitalism = you're screwed if you're the last trying to get your savings out of the bank.
|10.7.08 @ 10:13AM|#
Wow, this Ayers dude must have killed millions to make
Obama's old "connection" to him the moral equivalent of McCain's
ongoing public support of Bush foreign policy.
Why haven't I ever heard of any of the victims? Must be the liberal
media, right? Boy do they need to get their priorities
straight.
|10.7.08 @ 10:22AM|#
Mr. Gillespie,
thanks for the Sgt. Peppers nod. A good song to have stuck in my
head.
|10.7.08 @ 10:24AM|#
Ayers is a piece of used asswipe. Still he and Obama's
"connection" to him had absolutely nothing to do with me finally
deciding that I could not in good conscience vote for
CHANGE!
Lest I wasn't clear, Ayers is a cowardly contemptible jackass (the
Democrats mascot).
BDB|10.7.08 @ 10:32AM|#
This attack won't work not because Ayers isn't a leftist asswipe (he is ) but because he doesn't look particularly scary. He looks like some mild mannered community college professor. Willie Horton this is not.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 10:33AM|#
Plus, the % of the population that remembers the 1960s continues to dwindle every election cycle.
Nigel Watt|10.7.08 @ 10:34AM|#
He looks like some mild mannered community college professor.
That's why I despise him. He was all balls-to-the-wall
revolutionary when it was cool, but he sold out and went peaceful
without apologizing. Either continue the stupid violent bullshit or
apologize.
|10.7.08 @ 10:37AM|#
In the 1960's the humane thing to do was bomb the Pentagon which was delivering death and destruction to millions in Southeast Asia.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 10:37AM|#
"That's why I despise him. He was all balls-to-the-wall
revolutionary when it was cool, but he sold out and went peaceful
without apologizing."
This is different from every other person in his generation, how
again?
Jilly|10.7.08 @ 10:38AM|#
For a second I thought he was standing near that hideous Nathan Bedford Forrest statue off of I-65.
|10.7.08 @ 10:41AM|#
"Homelessness, crime, racism, oppression-we have the resources
and knowledge to fight and overcome these things."
So this is the kind of stuff Ayers is now teaching? OMG! What a
frightening radical! I found those articles high on accusations and
low on specifics. Not to excuse him from the 60's crap he was
involved in. He should have done time. But please, that article was
written clearly from a biased point of view.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 10:42AM|#
One thing I don't get--how come he never did time in prison if he was a "domestic terrorist"?
JP|10.7.08 @ 10:43AM|#
For a second I thought he was standing near that hideous
Nathan Bedford Forrest statue off of I-65.
Wait a minute ... There's a Nathan Bedford Forrest statue? In
public?
|10.7.08 @ 10:46AM|#
Plus, the % of the population that remembers the 1960s
continues to dwindle every election cycle.
While the % that is sick of tired of listening to people have the
same stupid arguments with the same people about the same things
they were arguing about in the SixtiesMan continues to grow.
John McCain made a Woodstock joke during the primary. A Woodstock
joke.
Nigel Watt|10.7.08 @ 10:47AM|#
This is different from every other person in his generation, how again?
He pretends he didn't.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 10:48AM|#
"John McCain made a Woodstock joke during the primary. A
Woodstock joke."
Well, to be fair at that time he thought he would be running
against the Clintons.
|10.7.08 @ 10:49AM|#
This whole Ayers thing has clinched it for me--I am changing my
vote, from Barr to Obama. I now feel compelled to cancel out one
moron Republican (please forgive the the now near-complete
redundancy).
Any of you guys know a specific GOPer resident in Florida shouting
"But what about Ayers!"? If so, please tell him I am canceling out
his ass.
Hogan|10.7.08 @ 10:52AM|#
BDB - Charges were dropped due to COINTELPRO-related
prosecutorial misconduct. I dunno that domestic terrorist deserves
scare quotes since he did organize bomb attacks on the Pentagon,
Congress, NYPD Headquarters, Haymarket Square and a planned attack
on a ROTC dance that led to an accidental explosion killing fellow
Weathermen. Sum total I think two cops were killed in these.
Z - My issue with the social justice ed stuff is less that's it's
muy asustadizo and more that the idea is for the focus of early
childhood education to be on indoctrinating leftist talking points
in schoolkids, and Obama evidently agreed.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 10:54AM|#
I did read the teachers union's in Chicago absolutely hated Ayers. I don't know if they hated him for the right reason, though.
Nigel Watt|10.7.08 @ 10:55AM|#
henry - You're voting for Obama because people are criticizing
him for hanging out with a sellout?
You might as well be walkin' on the sun
Mrs. Choate|10.7.08 @ 10:56AM|#
Now I know where I saw him. He stole my marble rye. I change my vote!
|10.7.08 @ 10:57AM|#
"Either continue the stupid violent bullshit or
apologize."
He should be punished by being forced to falling down drunk,
chasing anything that has an 'innie', enrolled in some secretive
organization that pays homage to a skull, then taught to kill
things from the air at mach 2 be it people or wolves or caribou.
Then when sucessful at that given a trust fund and a blond heiress.
Save the cheerleader, be the savior of the world...
BDB|10.7.08 @ 10:57AM|#
I think Henry is voting against McCain because McCain has apparently made Sean Hannity his new campaign strategist.
c|10.7.08 @ 10:59AM|#
also, they blew up a pipe bomb in san fransisco that killed a cop and also an armed hold up of a armored truck in the 80s that resulted in the murder of a security guard.
c|10.7.08 @ 11:00AM|#
oh, and also:
Lest I wasn't clear, Ayers is a cowardly contemptible jackass
Seconded.
Hogan|10.7.08 @ 11:04AM|#
OK - Having researched more, the cop deaths were from the SF
things c mentioned. The bombings I listed didn't result in deaths.
They also firebombed a judge's house and bombed military recruiting
stations in Manhattan. Also I said it was a ROTC dance but it was
for the Army at Fort Dix.
Also apparently they had the gayest
possible logo in the history of terrorists.
|10.7.08 @ 11:04AM|#
If Obama wins, Ayers will get a lot of respectability. When the
subject of Ayers comes up the response will be that that is old
news and we had an election and the people didn't care. Being
closely associated with the President opens a lot of doors. Even
though Obama can't get away with talking to Ayers directly, I
gaurentee you Ayers will have lots of connections in an Obama
Presidency and lots of access and lots of respectability to go with
it.
I once joked that there should be a pool on who gets to spend a
night in Lincoln Bedroom first, Ayers and Dorn or Jerimiah Wright.
I don't think he will get a night in the Lincoln Bedroom, but he
will get access and respectability and no doubt any number of big
money federal grants to continue his assault on American education
if Obama wins.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 11:06AM|#
John thinks that Bill Ayers will be the Secretary of
Education?
You're sounding as loony as the leftist moonbats in 2004 that
yammered about the coming of Halliburton Fascism.
Losing elections makes otherwise reasonable people become
nutbags.
|10.7.08 @ 11:08AM|#
BDB.
Read the post. I don't think he will be Secretary of Education. I
do think he will be well connected to a lot of Obama people and
will gain a veneer of respectability he would not have otherwise
had. He will also no doubt have a better shot at feeding at the
federal trough and funding his nutbag programs.
If you are going to accuse someone of being nuts, at least read
their posts first.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 11:09AM|#
I'm pretty sure he hardly knows the guy John.
Are you scared about the treasonous Alaska Independence Party
having respectability and access when Sarah Palin becomes VP? No?
Then you don't have a leg to stand on.
Hogan|10.7.08 @ 11:10AM|#
BDB - So long as Ayers doesn't fall out with Obama like Wright, he'll get more federal funding for his projects or projects he's associated with. Guaranteed. If there's one thing Obama knows how to do as a legislator (and there might only be this one thing), it's throwing money at hard-left associates, political donors, or his wife's relatives/employers. Nuthin' loony about John's projection at all.
dhex|10.7.08 @ 11:10AM|#
thanks for reminding us how incredibly shitty city journal
is.
it's like the new yorker on opposite day, but without any decent
10k word pieces on trends in linguistics or water collection
technology in the amazon rain forest.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 11:11AM|#
Yes Hogan, and when Bush is re-elected, Diebold will control all of us with mind rays!
|10.7.08 @ 11:11AM|#
John thinks that Bill Ayers will be the Secretary of
Education?
That would seem to be the post his background makes him best suited
for.
But then, I understand he's done some work at the Pentagon,
too.
|10.7.08 @ 11:11AM|#
BDB,
I am pretty sure he knows the guy pretty well. Why else did Ayers
host Obama's first political fund raiser? Why else is Obama lying
about how well he knew him? Why else are they so touchy about the
CAC papers? Further, with power it is all about access. Like I
said, even Obama is not dumb enough to actually have contact with
Ayers, but the people around him will. Whenever a President comes
to Washington from the outside, they bring their local mafia with
them. Obama will bring his Chicago mafia with him and many of them
will know Ayers quite well.
Hogan|10.7.08 @ 11:12AM|#
BDB - You seem to know very little about this. Ayers hosted Obama's career kickoff part in his house. He gave him his first (and only) executive position heading up the CAC, which dispensed moneys to radical education projects Ayers approved of. They served together on the Woods Fund board. They appeared together at at least two symposiums about education. Obama praised one of Ayers books on the jacket. Hardly knows the guy my fucking ass.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 11:13AM|#
Did you learn all that from World Net Daily Hogan?
Is it TOO HOT FOR TEH MSM?
BDB|10.7.08 @ 11:16AM|#
Will the newly established ACORN Stormtroopers force me to become a vegan and listen to NPR?
|10.7.08 @ 11:16AM|#
BDB,
What Hogan is saying is true. That doesn't mean that Obama is going
to appoint Ayers as SecDEF or give him a night in the Lincoln
bedroom. But it does mean that Ayers and Obama ran in the same
crowd and worked for the same ends in Chicago. I think it is pretty
safe to assume that Ayers will get better access and more
respectability if Obama wins. I mean hell the guy is already a prof
at UIC. It is not like he isn't already mainstream in Chicago at
least. What does that mean? Ayers will get a few million to waste
on stupid projects that continue to make Chicago schools worse. Not
exactly the end of the world, but it still sucks.
|10.7.08 @ 11:16AM|#
FYI:
Nathan
Bedford Forrest State Park
And more from wiki:
Obelisks in his memory were placed at his birthplace in Chapel Hill and at Nathan Bedford Forrest State Park near Camden. A statue of General Forrest was erected in Memphis's Nathan Bedford Forrest Park. A bust sculpted by Jane Baxendale is on display at the state capitol building in Nashville. The World War II Army base Camp Forrest in Tullahoma, Tennessee was named after him. It is now the site of the Arnold Engineering Development Center.
Tennessee has dedicated 32 historical markers linked to Nathan Bedford Forrest, more than are dedicated to the three Presidents who came from the state-Andrew Jackson, James K. Polk, and Andrew Johnson.[citation needed] Finally, the Tennessee legislature established July 13 as "Nathan Bedford Forrest Day."
"And that's what I like about the Sooouuutttthh!"
BDB|10.7.08 @ 11:19AM|#
If you're going to talk about Ayers I'd like you to also talk about the Alaska Independence Party. If you want to talk about associations.
|10.7.08 @ 11:20AM|#
Its not really about Ayers.
Its about Obama, what role Ayers has played in his life, what he
did with the job Ayers got him at the Annenberg Foundation, and
what it tells us about Obama that he has had a decades-long
association with Ayers that has never repudiated and has tried to
minimize/cover up.
|10.7.08 @ 11:21AM|#
Sugerfree,
There are a few things you ought to know. First, Forrest was
probably the finest cavalry commander of the war. Second, he and
R.E. Lee were instrumental in making sure that Southern forces
surrendered and went home in April 1965 rather than starting a
partisan war like Jefferson Davis wanted them to. They both saved
the South and the country a lot of pain. He did found the KKK, but
when he founded it it was a joke organization for him and his war
buddies. That is why the KKK has such ridiculous titles like grand
wizard and such. He never intended it to be the terrorist
organization it became and was never a part of the terror it
perpetrated.
Forrest was a slave trader and in many ways a bad guy. But he is no
worse than many and gets unfairly I think slapped with the "started
the KKK" mantra. He also never gets credit for helping to
peacefully end the war.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 11:22AM|#
John is right about Forrest, he regretted founding the Klan and worked for it's abolition later on.
|10.7.08 @ 11:22AM|#
"If you're going to talk about Ayers I'd like you to also talk
about the Alaska Independence Party. If you want to talk about
associations."
They are not terrorists. They want to achieve their ends peacefully
through an election. I don't agree with them, but it is a free
country and they have a right to advocate peacefully and through
elections for anything they like. To compare them to scum like
Ayers who tried to kill people is really unfair and wrong.
|10.7.08 @ 11:23AM|#
Are you scared about the treasonous Alaska Independence
Party having respectability and access when Sarah Palin becomes VP?
No?
When they start killing cops and bombing buildings, give me a
call.
Hell, when they start spending millions of dollars trying to
subvert the Anchorage school system, give me a call.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 11:23AM|#
So how is a guy (the founder of the AIP) that says his hatred for America is like the fires of hell any different from Rev. Wright?
Hogan|10.7.08 @ 11:24AM|#
BDB -
Party No. 1: Head of ticket had extensive, ten-year personal and
political relationship with former head of Weathermen terrorist
organization. They worked together on projects to help realize
their common goal of injecting "social justice" theory into the
Chicago school system.
Party No. 2: Vice president's spouse was member of Alaskan
secession party for seven years.
You have a right to think those things are completely
equivalent.
|10.7.08 @ 11:24AM|#
Yes. Forrest was one of the very first commanders to understand the effectiveness of completely mobile warfare.
economist|10.7.08 @ 11:25AM|#
Ayers is no more batshit than your typical lefty liberal arts
college professor.
Which scares me shitless.
Grand Wizard of the South Park|10.7.08 @ 11:27AM|#
Our next contest is "Who has the silliest thing on under their robe?"
economist|10.7.08 @ 11:29AM|#
Sorry, my last post should have said "batshit insane" rather than just "batshit".
|10.7.08 @ 11:30AM|#
The yammering about the school reform work gives the game away.
If you have a legitimate case about someone "palin' around with
terrorists there," you talk about that.
If you're segueing into education policy and theory, you're just
doing ordinary left-right shit, and acknowledging that the alleged
terrorist sympathies are bullshit.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 11:31AM|#
I just want everyone to promise they won't scream about ACORN stealing the election.
|10.7.08 @ 11:32AM|#
You know, there aren't many things I could think of that would
convince me to vote for Obama or McCain, but if either of them
strangled Ayers with their bare hands, I might reconsider.
-jcr
economist|10.7.08 @ 11:32AM|#
"Viva la Revolucion"
Given that in most socialist/communist states setting bombs in
government buildings is often grounds (if not always officially, at
least in practice) for summary execution, he might want to take
back that statement. Oh, that's right, he doesn't have to worry
because it won't happen in his lifetime.
|10.7.08 @ 11:35AM|#
BTW, regarding the KKK. It's worth pointing out that at the
height of its terrorist activities, it was basically the armed
faction of the Democratic party. During the occupation, the
resistance consisted of two parts, pretty much like Sinn Fein and
the IRA.
-jcr
Hogan|10.7.08 @ 11:38AM|#
Joe - It's two issues.
A) Many people would refuse to associate with Ayers because of his
loathsomeness. Obama didn't, and they were political associates and
(reportedly) friends. You might not care, which is straight, but
many people probably would. Especially since this kind of thing is
a trend with him.
B) Probably not that important to many people (which is why I'm
sure McCain won't bother with it), but they did have a radical
education agenda they worked on together. This emphasizes that
Obama is much further to the idiot left than he presents
himself.
Won't matter to some people. For me it's like reasons #5689 and
#5690 why Obama should not be president.
|10.7.08 @ 11:40AM|#
John,
I know plenty about the Civil War, thanks. It's a large part of
what I do for a living. The after-the-fact canonization of
Confederates like Forrest is, was, and will also be the most
sickening aspect of the post-war South. It was only the general
amnesty that kept Forrest and many like him from being hung as war
criminals.
The South may not be honoring him for creating the KKK, but they
shouldn't be honoring him for what he did in the war either:
Fort Pillow
On April 12, 1864, General Forrest led his forces in the attack and capture of Fort Pillow on the Mississippi River in Henning, Tennessee. The Battle of Fort Pillow led to great controversy about whether a massacre of surrendered African-American Union troops was conducted or condoned by General Forrest.
Forrest's men insisted that the Federals, although fleeing, kept their weapons and frequently turned to shoot, forcing the Confederates to keep firing in self defense.. The Union flag was still flying over the fort, which indicated that the force had not formally surrendered. A contemporary newspaper account from Jackson, Tennessee, states that "General Forrest begged them to surrender," but "not the first sign of surrender was ever given." Similar accounts were reported in many Southern newspapers at the time.
These denials, however, are contradicted by accounts of the massacre found in the letters of the Confederate soldiers who were there. Achilles Clark, a soldier with the 20th Tennessee cavalry, wrote the following in a letter to his sister penned immediately after the battle. "The slaughter was awful. Words cannot describe the scene. The poor, deluded, negroes would run up to our men, fall upon their knees, and with uplifted hands scream for mercy but they were ordered to their feet and then shot down. I, with several others, tried to stop the butchery, and at one time had partially succeeded, but General Forrest ordered them shot down like dogs and the carnage continued. Finally our men became sick of blood and the firing ceased."
Tell me again how the KKK was all just a joke.
No culture that erects monuments to and names elementary schools
after a fuckhead like that has any legitimacy or sense of
honor.
|10.7.08 @ 11:42AM|#
I understand the talking points just fine, Hogan.
You use the Weathermen background to make the education reform seem
really scary, and then use the scary education reform to make Ayers
look like he's still a terrorist. Why is Hussein palin' around with
a guy who's a terrorist?
For me it's like reasons #5689 and #5690 why Obama should not
be president. That is precisely who this will matter to.
Ben|10.7.08 @ 11:42AM|#
Remember, Chicago is an awful place because people hang out with
Bill Ayers there.
But the South is the Real America, where they build statues to
people who made war against the USA.
Ok. Right.
Just Plain Brian|10.7.08 @ 11:43AM|#
I once joked that there should be a pool on who gets to spend a night in Lincoln Bedroom first, Ayers and Dorn or Jerimiah Wright
That's not even a contest - it will be Michael Dorn, and it damn
well should be. I mean, the guy played Lt. Commander Worf, he
should at least get to stay in the Lincoln bedroom.
|10.7.08 @ 11:45AM|#
No culture that erects monuments to and names elementary
schools after a fuckhead like that has any legitimacy or sense of
honor.
So, you'll be demolishing the Lincoln memorial, I take it?
-jcr
|10.7.08 @ 11:45AM|#
Tell me again how the KKK was all just a joke.
It is interesting to see such a...NUANCED meditation on guilt and
its attenuation on coming from someone pushing the "Ayers means
Obama is a terrorist!" line.
|10.7.08 @ 11:45AM|#
I am fully aware of the Fort Pillow incident. Of course we
errect monuments to Sherman as well. He sent out Confederate
prisoners to clear mindfields. It was a nasty war. Regardless of
what happened at Pillow, Forrest started the KKK as a joke and
never supported its terrorist activities. Further, Forrest always
claimed that the troops at Fort Pillow didn't surrender. Is he
right or the letter right? I don't know and neither do you.
BTW, I am anything but a Southern sympathizer. I just think the
hatred of Forrest is overblown.
|10.7.08 @ 11:46AM|#
Good god, the narrow minded ignorance in these comments astounds. The scary thing is that some of you are actually old enough to vote, even if just barely.
|10.7.08 @ 11:47AM|#
As for reasons why Obama shouldn't be president, palling around
with washed-up terrorist has-beens is pretty low on the list for
me, too. I would put voting to ensure the onset of the second great
depression up at the top of the list.
-jcr
|10.7.08 @ 11:48AM|#
Joe,
It doesn't mean Obama is a terrorist. It just means that Obama has
terrible judgment about his friends and no moral backbone. He sat
for 20 years and listened to Wright's hate mongering and did
nothing. Do I think he agrees with Wright? No. But, I think that
Obama really doesn't care what Wright thinks and only cared that
going to the church got him somewhere. It is the same thing with
Ayers. Knowing Ayers was good for Obama so it didn't matter that
Ayers is a scumbag. This story is important not because Obama and
Michelle are going to be out planting bombs. It is important
because it shows Obama to be a pretty unprincipled opportunist.
|10.7.08 @ 11:49AM|#
Forrest started the KKK as a joke and never supported its
terrorist activities
They adopted the hoods and capes for the specific purpose of
terrorizing freed slaves during night rides. That costume was
created with the founding of the Klan. That was the fun Forrest
intended to enjoy with his war buddies.
Hogan|10.7.08 @ 11:50AM|#
Joe -
I wasn't intentionally blending the terror history and the
education reform. If it came off that way forgive it - an
inelegance of expression. The education reform isn't "scary," it's
just really stupid and suggests that Obama enjoys him some stupid,
New Left policy ideas. That Ayers is now in education reform isn't
why his terrorism is still relevant. I think a lot of that has to
do with his insistence that he still thinks what he did was right,
and that he thought this throughout his relationship with
Obama.
That you or others don't care is fine. I wasn't insisting that you
reconsider your estimation of Obama. If only the Republican base
will care, surely the man will come out and own up that at the very
least Ayers was more than a guy in his neighborhood. Shouldn't be
any electoral consequences at all.
Not to insist that this be that last word or anything, but I'm
bowing out from this thread for lunch.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 11:50AM|#
"Black nationalism
Southern nationalism
related? the same?"
I'd say the former is a horrible reaction to the latter.
|10.7.08 @ 11:50AM|#
"Black nationalism
Southern nationalism
related? the same?"
Close to the same and if obama were chumming around with Nathan
Bedford Forest he would have a lot to answer for.
Abdul|10.7.08 @ 11:52AM|#
I don't know how this thread became a civil war reanctors
messaging board, but I once heard a "fact" that Nathan Bedford
Forrest holds the record for American generals (if you define
"american" to include confederates) for most people personally
killed by his own hands.
Y'all know if that's true?
|10.7.08 @ 11:52AM|#
This story is important not because Obama and Michelle are
going to be out planting bombs. It is important because it shows
Obama to be a pretty unprincipled opportunist.
Wait a minute, I thought it showed that he was a devoted
radical.
And also, that he doesn't see America the way real Americans
did.
This story seems to show whatever spin the GOP decides to put on it
on any particular day, or event.
|10.7.08 @ 11:54AM|#
if obama were chumming around with Nathan Bedford Forest he
would have a lot to answer for.
Oh, I think I'd forgive an awful lot if he invented a time machine.
That could come in very handy.
-jcr
|10.7.08 @ 11:55AM|#
palin' around.
chummin' around.
Oh, gersh, you even see the language kinda seepin' down,
dotcha?
economist|10.7.08 @ 11:56AM|#
So...Obama pals around with socialists who hate America?
I'm shocked, simply shocked.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 11:56AM|#
I'd like to know why McCain didn't start the swiftboating back
in July.
It doesn't work 28 days out when your opponent has higher
favorabilities (and ones well over 50%) and lower negatives than
you do.
|10.7.08 @ 11:59AM|#
In the spirit of giving credit where credit is due, I will thank
Barack Obama for removing the threat of a Hillary Clinton
presidency for at least one election cycle.
-jcr
SIV|10.7.08 @ 12:00PM|#
if you define "american" to include confederates)
I'll bite on this one. What does the "A" stand for in CSA ? The
Confederate States broke away from the Union. They remained
American.
|10.7.08 @ 12:02PM|#
Is he right or the letter right? I don't know and neither do
you.
Of course we'll never know. But when weighing the testimony of
someone who has every interest in lying, and someone who has no
interest in lying--indeed no reason to bring up what he is
testifying about except as a confession to his moral revulsion in a
private letter to his daughter--where does jurisprudence find the
balance? What would you do as a lawyer, John?
I don't give a crap about Forrest, really, but the canonization of
every side and every personage in the Civil War sickens me to the
core.
|10.7.08 @ 12:03PM|#
joe, do you think it tells us anything at all about Obama that
he has had a long, professionally significant relationship with
Bill Ayers?
Or do you think it is just not relevant who a Presidential
candidate's associates are?
|10.7.08 @ 12:03PM|#
Honestly,
I don't think Obama is a radical. I don't think he is anyting. He
is Bill Clinton without the bimbos or the exceptional intelligence.
If he wins, and I am not convinced he will, he will let the left go
haywire just like Bill did, get his ass kicked in the off year
election and then start back peddling and trying to save himself.
He really is an empty suit who doesn't know much beyond the fact
that it is good to be Obama.
|10.7.08 @ 12:05PM|#
The Bill Ayers angle hasn't worked the last 6 to 8 months, what makes McCain think its going to work now? Is this an Ayers Surge?
|10.7.08 @ 12:08PM|#
yes or no question.
Was John McCain personally involved in torture of a prisoner for
over 5 years as a member of the U.S. Navy?
there. see how that works?
|10.7.08 @ 12:09PM|#
BDB,
The only real danger of an Obama administration is that world
leaders know that Bush will come and screw them over if they fuck
with him. Putin and company are going to look at Obama and laugh
their asses off. They are going to try to work him over just like
Kruschev did to Kennedy. The problem is that no US President, not
even one as weak as Obama can be that weak. If they push him far
enough, we might get a real war. Kennedy damn near gave us World
War III over Cuba. The other problem is that out of fear of looking
weak, he will go looking for a war. He will go out and try to be
more Catholic than the pope to prove he is not as weak as everyone
thinks he is.
|10.7.08 @ 12:09PM|#
"Do you think it tells us anything at all about Obama that
he has had a long, professionally significant relationship with
Bill Ayers?"
Whenever I see that formulation, I always wonder why they leave the
"anything at all" to our imagination. What exactly does it say? Ask
yourself if it says something that can't equally be said about
McCain. Only then will you have traction.
|10.7.08 @ 12:09PM|#
That's not even a contest - it will be Michael Dorn, and it
damn well should be. I mean, the guy played Lt. Commander Worf, he
should at least get to stay in the Lincoln bedroom.
Worf is a traitor to the Klingon Empire! He fought on Chancellor
Gowron's behalf in the Klingon Civil War!
(it is rare that we can parallel a Civil War argument over the
merits of a particular General with Star Trek)
|10.7.08 @ 12:10PM|#
If only the Republican base will care, surely the man will
come out and own up that at the very least Ayers was more than a
guy in his neighborhood. Shouldn't be any electoral consequences at
all.
Right, the only possible reason a political candidate doesn't
devote his campaign to discussing attacks brought up by his
opponent is a knowledge of guilt.
Gersh, why won't John McCain give a speech about how he's not too
old to be president?
SIV|10.7.08 @ 12:10PM|#
SugarFree
What collections are in your library?
Just curious, I'm a relatively inactive Americana collector. I've
bought, sold and handled Civil War photographica.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 12:11PM|#
John--
The world is laughing at Bush right now because they know he can't
do shit with two wars going on because our army is tied down. If we
didn't have Iraq or Afghanistan on our plate Putin would have never
gone into Georgia.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 12:12PM|#
Not to mention, the Iranian President wouldn't be running off at the mouth nearly as much.
|10.7.08 @ 12:13PM|#
RC,
joe, do you think it tells us anything at all about Obama that
he has had a long, professionally significant relationship with
Bill Ayers? I guess that's one way of describing "served on
charitable boards with" someone.
Not one an honest person would use, but a way nonetheless.
Oh, to answer your question - no, it doesn't tell me anything that
he served on charitable boards with a guy who used to be a bomb
thrower in the SixtiesMan, and later became an educrat and college
professor. It tells me less than the fact that he attended Trinity
United Church.
|10.7.08 @ 12:13PM|#
"If we didn't have Iraq or Afghanistan on our plate Putin would
have never gone into Georgia."
Yes he would have. What are we going to do about Georgia, go to war
with Russia? I don't think so. We could have done nothing about
9-11 and given Bin Ladin that tenured position at the Kennedy
School, they no doubt would like to give him, and Putin still would
have played local bad boy with Georgia. The thing with Georgia has
nothing to do with us and everything to do with Russia running out
of people and wanting to take back every Russian minority they can
find.
Abdul|10.7.08 @ 12:16PM|#
SIV,
I suppose I could have been more clear. I meant "american" as in
"citizen of the United States of America." Under your definition of
"american," canadians and argentinians could be "americans" because
they come from the American continents.
Some confederates have refused to acknowledge citizenship in the
USA. I believe former president John Tyler said something before
his death of being proud to die a citizen of the CSA and not the
USA. While Forrest lived on after the war, he was never an American
general in the sense that he served in the USA.
|10.7.08 @ 12:16PM|#
world leaders know that Bush will come and screw them over
if they fuck with him
Right, like Russia in Georgia. Or Pakistan. Or North Korea. Or the
Chinese. They're just quaking in their boots over Bush's tough
talk.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 12:18PM|#
I do know McCain's response to Georgia made me swear I would never ever vote for him after that point. He really his jonesing to re-fight the Cold War.
|10.7.08 @ 12:18PM|#
We could have done nothing about 9-11 and given Bin Ladin
that tenured position at the Kennedy School, they no doubt would
like to give him...
I suppose it's possible that we'll see people who don't talk like
this who consider Bill Ayers to be important.
But so far, not so much.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 12:19PM|#
Oh, and Palin would be a real tough cookie if McCain croaks. Yes, sir. Putin would shit himself!
|10.7.08 @ 12:24PM|#
Joe,
Obama, if he is ever President will get a real education in reality
once in office. After he goes out and grovels to Putin and Iran and
finds out that doesn't work, it is going to be a real sad day in
the Whitehouse. If it wasn't the country involved, it would be
funny to watch. The only thing that really worries me about an
Obama Presidency is his use of thuggery against opponents like in
Missouri. It is not like the MSM will ever do anything to watchdog
him and anyone who criticizes him will be immediately tagged a
racist. I honestly can't imagine him doing anything that would
actually draw real criticism from the media once he is in office. A
President with the MSM functioning as essentially a ministry of
truth is pretty scary. I am not sure what he would do with that
power, but it is more than a bit unnerving.
Just Plain Brian|10.7.08 @ 12:24PM|#
Oh, and Palin would be a real tough cookie if McCain croaks. Yes, sir. Putin would shit himself!
Well, during her watch Putin has never reared his head into her
airspace. Coincidence? I think not.
SIV|10.7.08 @ 12:25PM|#
Abdul,
I'm saying holding allegiance to their State over that of the Union
didn't make the Confederates any less American, particularly by the
standards prevailing antebellum.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 12:25PM|#
Palin's foreign policy would either to be walked all over by everyone in the world because she would be seen as a complete joke, or to try to bring on the End Times and the rapture.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 12:28PM|#
"The only thing that really worries me about an Obama Presidency
is his use of thuggery against opponents like in Missouri. "
You know who wrote the law that allows him to do that, right?
|10.7.08 @ 12:28PM|#
BDB,
I can't see Palin as joke anymore than OBama. The man has litteraly
done nothing in his life. He was head of the CAC, which he now says
was no big deal because he didn't know Ayers. He has been a
boringly liberal Senator for two years and he was editor of his law
review. I am surprised his Campaign doesn't put out that he was
presdent of his thrid grade madress class. Oh he wrote two
biographies about all of the things he hasn't ever
accomplished.
Palin was a former sports caster who came from no where to be
governor of a state. That is pretty kick ass when you think about.
All Obama has ever done is kiss ass and make crooked deals in
Chicago. And last I looked Palin wasn't running for President.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 12:30PM|#
When the guy at the top of the ticket is 72 years old and has had cancer twice, you may as well be running for President.
|10.7.08 @ 12:30PM|#
BDB,
Yes, that is how it is going to work. All of Obama's sins will be
excused because the other side is worse. You are picking right up
on it. One thing is for sure, if the dumb bastard wins, I don't
want to hear one peep our of Reason once he is in office. They have
been in the tank for him for a year now. They clearly want what
they may get.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 12:30PM|#
Calling Alaska a "state" is a bit much. My county has more people in it. I don't see my County Executive being qualified to be President.
Just Plain Brian|10.7.08 @ 12:32PM|#
The man has litteraly done nothing in his life.
For fuck's sake, john, that's not what that word means.
|10.7.08 @ 12:35PM|#
SIV,
We collect by family and donation-groups so the general Civil War
stuff is scattered, but primarily we have the papers of the
Breckinridge, Hunt-Morgan, Preston, Clay, Todd, and Johnston
families.
|10.7.08 @ 12:36PM|#
He is Bill Clinton without the bimbos or the exceptional
intelligence.
Anyone who gets better grades than me is "exceptionally
intelligent" in my book.
Although anyone who doesn't agree with my opinions gets marked
down. So I'm in a little bit of a quandary on Obama.
joe, do you think it tells us anything at all about Obama that
he has had a long, professionally significant relationship with
Bill Ayers?
I guess that's one way of describing "served on charitable boards
with" someone.
joe, his relationship with Ayers goes much deeper and further back
than that. In all probability, anyway, because there has been a
pretty successful coverup of that relationship, aided and abetted
by a media with no interest in investigating Obama's past.
I suggest this this as a
good place to start. I can't get through from this computer to the
specific posts that detail what we know, what the gaps are, and
what Obama's evasions and half-truths have been, but there's a lot
more to their relationship than Obama's initial "oh, we were just
neighbors" story.
|10.7.08 @ 12:38PM|#
But what does Obama's association with Ayers say about Obama that can't be said about McCain? I don't mean to say there isn't something, but I just couldn't care less about the whole thing. Give me a reason instead of just making the accusation in a glaring tone and acting indignant about it.
Asharak|10.7.08 @ 12:41PM|#
I think it's funny how just because Bill Ayers is a douchebag,
ersatz libertarians like John and SIV are using that as another
excuse to keep kissing the asses of drug-warring, wiretap-loving
Republicans who will never accept them.
And Hogan, Obama IS a New Democrat.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 12:43PM|#
Asharak--
It's especially rich when they yammer about how Obama will use the
expanded executive branch--which Republicans passed laws
to expand--to bring about Teh Libruh Fascism.
Where were these people in 2002?
Asharak|10.7.08 @ 12:45PM|#
But what does Obama's association with Ayers say about Obama
that can't be said about McCain? I don't mean to say there isn't
something, but I just couldn't care less about the whole thing.
Give me a reason instead of just making the accusation in a glaring
tone and acting indignant about it.
The Obama camp can (and likely will) just as easily bring up McCain
palling around with John Hagee or all of that wacky stuff Sarah
Palin's pastor has said, not to mention the blatantly anti-American
Alaska secessionist movement her husband used to be a part of.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 12:49PM|#
Asharak--
They won't bring it up. They don't have to. They have an eight
point lead 28 days out.
|10.7.08 @ 12:51PM|#
Palin was a former sports caster who came from no where to
be governor of a state. That is pretty kick ass when you think
about. All Obama has ever done is kiss ass and make crooked deals
in Chicago.
It is more impressive for a middle class girl to become Alaska's
governor than for a kid who was on food stamps to become a United
States Senator and beat a Clinton for the Presidential
nomination.
Apparently, because Alaska is better than Chicago, or something.
Oh, I know, it's because the politicians in Chicago are
corrupt!
|10.7.08 @ 12:52PM|#
joe, actually it's because john's head is so far up palin's ass he is now channeling trigg.
|10.7.08 @ 12:55PM|#
joe, his relationship with Ayers goes much deeper and
further back than that. In all probability, anyway, because there
has been a pretty successful coverup of that relationship, aided
and abetted by a media with no interest in investigating Obama's
past.
But you know it anyway. If only he'd post his birth
certificate!
LMAO, I've got an idea: why don't you type "New Democrat" into the
google, and see what pops up, THEN laugh at somebody for using a
term you don't recognize. Just a heads up.
|10.7.08 @ 12:56PM|#
brotherben,
And when he kinda rises up into our sorta ass space, where are
they?
Alaska.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 12:57PM|#
After re-reading the comments, I'd like to know, which is
it:
Is Obama a weak-need Jimmy Carter, or a brutal Chicago thug?
Hogan|10.7.08 @ 12:59PM|#
I suspect that the Ayers back-and-forth has exhausted itself. Joe and BDB, surprisingly!, don't care. Others do. But, Asharak, how do you justify calling Obama a New Democrat?
|10.7.08 @ 1:01PM|#
Joe and BDB, surprisingly!, don't care.
BDB wasn't around then, but given how I freaked out when the Wright
video surfaced, your irony falls flat.
Hogan|10.7.08 @ 1:05PM|#
BDB - in terms of his political tactics (knocking his opponents
of the ballot in his first race, trying to silence critics, etc...)
I'd say he's an aggressive machine politician. In terms of his
foreign policy instincts, I'd say he's a Carter. They're not
mutually exclusive. Nor, to Joe, is it inconceivable that Obama is
a "pretty unprincipled opportunist," "radical," who "doesn't see
America the way real Americans did." All three are likely true and
all three are demonstrated in his relationship with Ayers.
The "wait yer saying he's X and also Y?!?!?! hahaha
gotcha!" defense is a weak one.
Gilbert Martin|10.7.08 @ 1:05PM|#
Here's a link to an excellent article by Thomas Sowell who
points out that Ayers didn't just have an "association" with Ayers
- he had an alliance with him.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZmM1NzBkNGI4MGRkZjFmOTg4ZjU3ODVjNmE5ZGM0OGI=
And here's another one by Stanley Kurtz who details Obama's ties to
ACORN which was a player in enabling the subprime mortgage mess
(and is involved in voter fraud schemes all over the
country).
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZjRjYzE0YmQxNzU4MDJjYWE5MjIzMTMxMmNhZWQ1MTA=
Hogan|10.7.08 @ 1:05PM|#
Joe - forgive me, I wasn't around re: Wright. BDB - I don't care about his birth certificate and am not claiming to.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 1:06PM|#
Thomas Sowell, while he writes excellent books, is a godawful hack as a columnist.
ACORN Stormtrooper|10.7.08 @ 1:07PM|#
I'm coming to get you, Gilbert Martin!!!
I'll put you in the Gary, IN Liberal Fascist Gulag!
Gilbert Martin|10.7.08 @ 1:11PM|#
Sowell is an excellent columnist - and an excellent author as well.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 1:17PM|#
His columns aren't even in the same writer's "voice". I'm damn near convince they're ghost written by an RNC intern.
|10.7.08 @ 1:19PM|#
"Sowell is an excellent columnist - and an excellent author
as well."
Sowell knows economics, but he's just a dick on social issues. I
don't want medical advice from a plumber, and I don't want moral
direction from an economics professor.
SIV|10.7.08 @ 1:22PM|#
SugarFree,
Wow, you have a really great job!
Got any spare original copies of Bennett H. Young's Prehistoric
Men of Kentucky?
BDB|10.7.08 @ 1:23PM|#
Lamar--
Exactly. It's like how you can respect Chomsky as a linguist, but
he's still a socialist dickhead when it comes to politics.
|10.7.08 @ 1:24PM|#
Asharak-
Obama IS a New Democrat.
No.
Here's the first
hit at google. I see a Clinton and a Richardson, but no
Obama.
Also, from wiki's entry on the DLC
entry- "...while nominee Senator Barack Obama opposes the DLC -
in 2003, he discussed why his positions against parts of NAFTA, the
War in Iraq, and in support of universal healthcare were at odds
with the DLC, saying that "... these positions make me an unlikely
candidate for membership in the DLC. That is why I am not
currently, nor have I ever been, a member of the
DLC."
Try again.
|10.7.08 @ 1:25PM|#
Here's a link to... National Review magazine.
Thanks for that.
I say this a liberal Democrat whose most frequently-read source of
information on politics is Reason dot com: What sort of idiot would
care about what appears in National Review magazine? Isn't there a
Jack Chick pamphlet you can link to?
|10.7.08 @ 1:31PM|#
SIV,
It looks like we have a couple; we have an intense but friendly
rivalry with The Filson Club. No smuggling out of books is on tap,
but if you just want to read it,
the whole thing is online here.
Asharak|10.7.08 @ 1:56PM|#
No.
Here's the first hit at google. I see a Clinton and a Richardson,
but no Obama.
Also, from wiki's entry on the DLC entry- "...while nominee Senator
Barack Obama opposes the DLC - in 2003, he discussed why his
positions against parts of NAFTA, the War in Iraq, and in support
of universal healthcare were at odds with the DLC, saying that "...
these positions make me an unlikely candidate for membership in the
DLC. That is why I am not currently, nor have I ever been, a member
of the DLC."
Try again.
Then he flip-flopped and said NAFTA wasn't so bad after all, and
his "universal health care" plans still keeps the insurance
companies in charge.
SIV|10.7.08 @ 1:59PM|#
SugarFree
I hadn't googled the location of those family papers so I thought
you might work at The Filson.
Special collections libraries should de-accession duplicate and out
of scope material(and in a formal open sale/auction). I used to bid
in the William L. Clements Library sales, among others.I can't
afford that hobby any more, a matter of time as much as having
better things to spend and save the money for.
Gilbert Martin|10.7.08 @ 1:59PM|#
"I say this a liberal Democrat..."
Which is absolute defacto proof of you being the idiot right
there.
What you think about National Review is of no consequence.
Asharak|10.7.08 @ 1:59PM|#
Sowell is an excellent columnist - and an excellent author
as well.
Sowell believes World War II internment camps were justified. Care
to explain this position on a libertarian site?
|10.7.08 @ 2:03PM|#
...and his "universal health care" plans still keeps the
insurance companies in charge.
And isn't universal. Even Hillary offered a universal plan.
Which is absolute defacto proof of you being the idiot right
there. Oh, OK, Gil. Just as long as you aren't letting
partisanship bias your opinions.
I'm sure you find every word in Jonah Goldberg Weekly quite
compelling, right down the descriptions of how video of Sarah Palin
makes the writers feel.
|10.7.08 @ 2:11PM|#
SIV,
State accounting rules screws that up for most institutions. For
example, we have a very large commercial record collection that
falls outside our collecting interest. We can't sell or give it
away it to the public or sell or give it away it to another
institution. Our options are to pack them off to our remote
facility for another 4 decades or throw them away. It's got so bad
we don't even have good old library sales anymore. We send unwanted
gifts and de-accessioned titles it to the public library for free
so they can sell them. It's retarded.
It's a nice job, but to be in an institution that cannot even
conceive of how to run itself as a successful business, filled with
people who don't have even the basic grasp of economics that most
of illiterate trolls have is extremely tiring at times.
It does prove a lot of teachable moments for my student workers,
though.
Hogan|10.7.08 @ 2:26PM|#
Asharak - while Obama rather gracelessly pivoted on several
issues over the summer to recast himself as a centrist, there is
nothing in his record to suggest that he's anything beyond a
conventional liberal, of the pre-Clinton "Old" Democrat sort. If
welfare reform is sort of a litmus for having triangulating
sympathies, it's worth noting that Obama vocally opposed it at the
time and now claims, falsely, to have supported it.
It's the difference between actually working like a New Democrat in
office and just mouthing positions (supports 2nd amendment, free
trade's not so bad, supports offshore drilling) that contradict
your former statements and voting record because you see the
electoral value of doing so.
Joe - I agree that National Review is mostly boring and douchey.
But you don't come off well for reacting to the source of a link
rather than its substance.
SIV|10.7.08 @ 2:34PM|#
Too bad,
I know what you are talking about though. I have several nice and
desirable pieces that are unique and/or unrecorded that I would
love to have traded to institutions in exchange for duplicate or
out of scope material.All they could offer was a tax deduction.I
couldn't even pry duplicate modern reference books loose in
exchange.
|10.7.08 @ 2:35PM|#
Hogan,
Obama was attacked on the left by Hillary Clinton for his health
care plan, and that's going back to 2007.
Asharak|10.7.08 @ 2:39PM|#
What's really sad about all of this is that McCain and Palin might have still had a shot at pulling ahead if they pushed the taxes issue more. But instead, they took this desperate path when they should know full well that they also have plenty of skeletons in the closet themselves. It's rather pathetic.
Hogan|10.7.08 @ 2:46PM|#
Joe - There's one. Any other examples at all? Any examples from
his actual legislative career?
This was originally brought up when I noted that "he was purported
to have New Democrat-like attitudes towards school choice"" Which
he was, because he had made a few vague statements that suggested
he wasn't doctrinaire on that issue. After that sank in enough to
give the impression of centrism his campaign clarified that
"Throughout his career, he has voted against voucher proposals and
voiced concern for siphoning off resources from our public
schools." Same case with affirmative action, union policy,
etc...
Lots of talk from Obama about moderation, very little in evidence.
If you like him because y'all are both liberal Democrats, that's
fine. But you can't play him as a centrist New Democrat because he
isn't one.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 2:48PM|#
Hogan--
Voters, in poll after poll, call Obama a "liberal" by a large
margin, but still give him a lead in the same polls.
BDB|10.7.08 @ 2:50PM|#
IOW, calling him a liberal or leftist isn't going to get you very far, because the voters already know that. And they're voting for him, anyway.
|10.7.08 @ 2:50PM|#
Ironically, the Weathermen never killed anyone-- with accidental exception of two of their own members in a Village apartment in 1970--in any of their bombings. In fact, this group called in bomb threats to clear buildings prior to exploding them specifically to save lives. It is still terrorism, but in the end-of-Fight-Club kind of way, not the Al-Qaeda-kill-the-infidel kind of way. In fact, as crazy as his politics were/are, Bill Ayers seems like a pretty nice guy, if you ever actually meet him. He spoke to class I attended on the Vietnam War. Whereas, the speakers that came in to discuss the pro-war POV all seemed extreme, angry or tired. Not much unlike the Republican nominee that is running against Obama.
|10.7.08 @ 2:52PM|#
Any other examples at all? Any examples from his actual
legislative career?
He cosponsored a global warming bill with John McCain - a pretty
tame one, that relied on carbon credit trading.
He sponsored an Iraq War bill that called for a timeline for
withdrawal, and when that failed, he voted for the 'emergency'
appropriations bills without timelines - as opposed to the leftier
members of the caucus, who voted to cut off funds.
BTW, as far as political affinity goes, I wanted a universal health
care plan and hardball on the Iraq War funding.
|10.7.08 @ 2:52PM|#
asharak,
good point, their may be substantive issues where the right and the
swing voters could be brought back in, but they decided to sling
poo instead. Is that McCain/ Palins way of saying that voters in
the U.S. of A. are, as a general rule, voyeuristic dumbasses?
Hogan|10.7.08 @ 2:55PM|#
BDB - I don't care. If people want liberalism, by all means they
can get it. I don't (I used to be very liberal until college and
then smartened up), so I don't support Obama. I'm not part of the
McCain campaign so I don't care if this will "get me very far." I'm
glad that large margins among the polled understand that Obama is
liberal though Joe and Asharak may demur.
Tom - They bombed a San Francisco police station that killed a guy
and killed two cops and a security guard in the Brinks robbery in
1981. They stuffed their bombs with nails and shit, the only
purpose of which would be to increase human damage. Though it was
nice of them to clear the buildings involved.
Hogan|10.7.08 @ 2:57PM|#
Joe - meh. I don't know that those examples qualify for him to be numbered as a centrist in my book.
|10.7.08 @ 2:58PM|#
BDB, good points as well. Obama has said from the beginning of
the race that he intended to tax the wealthy to help the poor. And
redefine our infrastructure and energy needs using government
monies. more wealth redistribution.
No big surprises from a democrat. IMO the problem McCain has is
that many many voters see their empty pockets as the result of the
evil rich and they are ready for some bloodletting. If McCain gets
far enough left to sing that song, he loses most republican
voters.
Asharak|10.7.08 @ 3:12PM|#
Asharak - while Obama rather gracelessly pivoted on several
issues over the summer to recast himself as a centrist, there is
nothing in his record to suggest that he's anything beyond a
conventional liberal, of the pre-Clinton "Old" Democrat sort. If
welfare reform is sort of a litmus for having triangulating
sympathies, it's worth noting that Obama vocally opposed it at the
time and now claims, falsely, to have supported it.
Obama is socially liberal, yes, but he's no Dennis
Kucinich.
Amd for the record, I'm reluctantly voting for Bob Barr.
|10.7.08 @ 3:16PM|#
In fact, as crazy as his politics were/are, Bill Ayers seems
like a pretty nice guy, if you ever actually meet him.
And Stalin was supposed to be quite charming, in person.
But you know it anyway. If only he'd post his birth
certificate!
No, joe, I've read some pretty interesting articles aggregating the
piecemeal reporting on the relationship and the ever-shifting Obama
account of it.
Its pretty clear Obama has been minimizing and avoiding giving a
full accounting of a guy who was pretty significant to his early
career (first fundraiser, instrumental in his foundation
chairmanship); a politician who is minimizing and ducking and
weaving on his associates should give you pause.
But its easier just to stick your fingers in your ears, I
guess.
Hogan|10.7.08 @ 3:39PM|#
RC Dean - One of my favorite Stalin anecdotes is from McCullough's biography of Truman. Marshall apparently met with Stalin in 1947 to talk about Soviet intentions in Eastern Europe and found him uncooperative. Apparently he spent the whole time doodling wolves with a red pencil. Which I think is tight.
|10.7.08 @ 3:53PM|#
Hogan,
I think we might be talking past each other.
If you draw a line down the middle of the country, Obama is to the
left of that line; ie, a liberal.
The question is whether, within the area left of center, he is a
liberal or a moderate. He's a moderate, more like Clinton than
Kucinich. He's maybe a hair to the left of the DLC. He's not even
as liberal as Dodd or Pelosi.
|10.7.08 @ 3:57PM|#
RC,
No, joe, I've read some pretty interesting articles aggregating
the piecemeal reporting on the relationship and the ever-shifting
Obama account of it.
And I've read some pretty interesting articles from Laurie Mylroie
aggregating the piecemeal reporting about the links between Saddam
Hussein, 9/11, and the Oklahoma City bombing.
I think we've been reading the same web sites.
Doesn't anything strike you as odd about accusing a liberal who
frequents Hit & Run of sticking his fingers in his ears?
Hogan|10.8.08 @ 3:10PM|#
Worth pointing out, in the aftermath of accusations that Obama
is a centrist and even a New Democrat, that he was cited multiple
times as a member of the hard left
New Party in 1996. The Party was specifically designed by the
Democratic Socialists of America to try to drag the Dems away from
DLC style centrism.
Reaction predictions (if any):
1. He heh you're linking to a conservative blog.
2. Did you hear about his birth certificate? heh heh !!
3. It won't matter cuz joe doesn't care!!!
Pre-emptive response: just pointing this out to refute the idea
that Obama has moderate instincts.
And I'd also say that when someone hosts your political coming-out
party and gives you your first real executive political position -
yeah, that's like a protege.
Site comments/questions:
Media Inquiries and Reprint Permissions:
(310) 367-6109
Editorial & Production Offices:
3415 S. Sepulveda Blvd.
Suite 400
Los Angeles, CA 90034
(310) 391-2245