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The U.S. Is Already a Majority-Minority Nation
The New York Times reports that "ethnic and racial minorities will comprise a majority of the nation's population in a little more than a generation." But ethnic and racial minorities already comprise a majority of the nation's population. The current U.S. population is about 300 million. There are roughly 46 million Hispanic Americans, 40 million African Americans, 35 million Irish Americans, 16 million Italian Americans, 15 million Asian Americans, 10 million Polish Americans, 3 million Greek Americans, and 3 million Russian Americans. That's a majority right there, and I've left out a bunch of ethnic groups.
What the Times really means, of course, is that "Americans who identify themselves as Hispanic, black, Asian, American Indian, Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander will together outnumber non-Hispanic whites." We've become so accustomed to this arbitrary definition of "ethnic and racial minorities" that it's easy to lose sight of how bizarre it is. Is there a single objective criterion that unites these particular ethnic and racial minorities while distinguishing them from all the excluded groups? Is there any rational reason why a descendant of Spaniards, say, should count as a real minority, whether or not his ancestors spent time in Latin America, while a descendant of Italians does not? What is it, exactly, that makes Indians more ethnic than Albanians?
While some Americans view the arrival of the milestone heralded by the Times with horror, others see it as a sign of progress. I'd say obsessing about it one way or another indicates a lack of progress.
short, fat bastard|8.14.08 @ 2:32PM|#
Short fat guy of Irish, English, Scots, Dutch, and Dane
ancestory. So what what ethnic group covers the descendants of
various pillagers and rapist.
Remember boys, first pillage, then rape, AND THEN burn the
village!
Elemenope|8.14.08 @ 2:34PM|#
We are rapidly approaching the point where it will become
impossible to not have met a person of a different color skin than
you.
Oh the horror. I imagine the Lonewacko is preparing his seppuku
knives as we speak.
Nigel Watt|8.14.08 @ 2:34PM|#
I agree. I don't see why the Census should even bother with race, if we're to have a Census in the first place.
Senator Bulworth|8.14.08 @ 2:36PM|#
. . . everyone just keeps fucking everyone until we're all the same color.
|8.14.08 @ 2:38PM|#
While some Americans view the arrival of the milestone
heralded by the Times with horror, others see it as a sign of
progress. I'd say obsessing about it one way or another indicates a
lack of progress.
QFT. When cut, we all bleed red. The racial and ethnic bean
counting is counterproductive to the goal of ending
reducing* prejudice and intolerance.
* Bigoted idiocy will be with us always. I try to set realistic
goals.
|8.14.08 @ 2:39PM|#
And mutts and mongrels will outnumber all of them within a
generation.
Now, who want's a little Scotish in 'em?
|8.14.08 @ 2:41PM|#
I don't see why the Census should even bother with race, if
we're to have a Census in the first place.
In 2000 the wife and I left that blank. They got age and sex and
nothing else. Amazingly enough they didn't come back and ask for
more data.
Naga Sadow|8.14.08 @ 2:43PM|#
Non hispanic. I've always wondered what that meant. My grandmother is Mexican so where does that leave me?
Jozef|8.14.08 @ 2:44PM|#
I don't see why the Census should even bother with race, if
we're to have a Census in the first place.
When I did some research on the One Drop Rule (which I learned
about thanks to some commenters here) I found out that the issue of
race in census is a political one, and pushed especially by
non-white groups. In fact, it took years of negotiations to include
- for the first time - "multiracial" as a category in the 2000
Census. Up to that point, thanks to the black leaders, people were
forced to pick only one of five races.
Episiarch|8.14.08 @ 2:45PM|#
My grandmother is Mexican so where does that leave
me?
On LoneWackjob's shitlist? Which is a good place to be.
|8.14.08 @ 2:50PM|#
Last census, I tried to screw up their statistics as much as
possible. Since the theory is that all humans originated in Africa,
everyone in my household was listed as "African-American" (or
whatever PC term they used). And I listed our unborn child as a
member our household, date of birth as of the estimated date of
conception, since damned if I'm going to accept their implied
hypothesis that life only begins when you exit the birth
canal.
If they're gonna ask for stuff beyond the enumeration allowed by
the Constitution, they're gonna get wildly misleading stats from
me.
Naga Sadow|8.14.08 @ 2:51PM|#
Episiarch,
I meant where does that place me in the census category of race.
But as for your comment . . . fuck lonewacko!
|8.14.08 @ 2:56PM|#
"Non hispanic. I've always wondered what that meant. My
grandmother is Mexican so where does that leave me?"
In the real world it leaves as an American. In bizzaro PC world it
leaves you as one of the oppressed Latino masses. When you think of
your grandmother do you feel oppressed? Do you feel the pain of
your brothers and sisters around you and the injustice of American
imperialism?
|8.14.08 @ 2:59PM|#
Is there a single objective criterion that unites these
particular ethnic and racial minorities while distinguishing them
from all the excluded groups?
Well, in theory the objective criterion is that the "minority"
ethnicities were historically oppressed in our society. Of course,
that breaks down in practice. As you pointed out, Spanish-Americans
shouldn't count as minorities just because some of their ancestors
came to the New World and cohabitated with natives. And of course,
Irish, Italians and most Eastern Europeans were all discriminated
against at some point in our country's history. That being said, I
suppose the British were the first "majority" and the easiest thing
to do is to define anybody that doesn't look like them as the
minority.
|8.14.08 @ 3:00PM|#
Oh brother, more census hate. And this from folks deriding another as "Lonewacko."
Naga Sadow|8.14.08 @ 3:01PM|#
Come to think of it John . . . I do feel a little oppressed. Not from white people though. I work in an Asian restaurant now and I'm one of only 5 non-Asian workers in the restaurant. They call me "Me-chung" which they claim means white people but I'm convinced it means white monkey! The horror of it all!
bubba|8.14.08 @ 3:01PM|#
My Spanish colleagues delight in listing themselves as
Hispanics.
Why the hell do the Conquistadors get the same privileges as the
Natives?
|8.14.08 @ 3:02PM|#
The whole hispanic thing re the census is interesting as someone
can be from one of any of the other groups and still be hispanic.
If you are a white Hispanic, are you considered a minority?
Also I think being an Eskimo puts you in the the same group as a
Hawaiian. I imagine both parties think that is a bit silly. What do
these groups culturally have in common? Of course, the same could
be said for "Black" in an area that contains immigrants from all
across the continent of Africa.
|8.14.08 @ 3:02PM|#
Is there a single objective criterion that unites these
particular ethnic and racial minorities while distinguishing them
from all the excluded groups?
Sure. Skin tone.
In 2000 the wife and I left that blank.
As I did, and plan to, forevermore. It would be nice if some
crackpot rich-guy activist funded a campaign to encourage people to
boycott State-sponsored racial pigeonholing.
My grandmother is Mexican so where does that leave
me?
Mine, too. Actually, I think she may have been almost all Navajo
(Apache is a more remote possibility - she was from some little
crossroads in northern NM). Nobody really knows - that generation
of my family just died out, and they never volunteered (and we
never asked).
|8.14.08 @ 3:07PM|#
I had a collegue who is whiter than I am and from a rich family in Mexico. He went to Columbia undergrad and NYU law school and is now a political appointee of fairly high rank. He was telling me yesterday who his daughter scored a whoppin 1100 on her SATs but is getting letters from Harvard and Penn because she is a "hispanic". Oh the joys of modern racial America.
Nigel Watt|8.14.08 @ 3:07PM|#
Yeah, why the hell is "Native Alaskan/Pacific Islander" a single ethnic group?
|8.14.08 @ 3:08PM|#
U.S. Const. Art. I Sec. II "The actual Enumeration shall be made
within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the
United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in
such Manner as they shall by Law direct."
Prole-Did you get that "in such manner as they shall by Law direct"
part?
LarryA|8.14.08 @ 3:09PM|#
if we're to have a Census in the first place.
Population figures are required to apportion seats and determine
voting districts in the U.S. House of Representatives. The census
also keeps a lot of academic types off the streets.
ethnic and racial minorities will comprise a majority of the
nation's population in a little more than a generation
If instead of "who do you identify with" we counted by DNA
"multiracial" would take over.
Non Hispanic.
My sister-in-law, born of Scotch-Irish parents, was counted as
"Hispanic" for two of her marriages. "Spanish surnamed."
I just love it when our TV News talking heads go on about San
Antonio's (>60%) "Hispanic minority."
BDB|8.14.08 @ 3:10PM|#
"Hispanic" is a fabrication anyway, made up in t he 70s (Nixon was behind that I think). Before they marked white, just as people with other "ethnic" backgrounds do. And if they had continued too, we would be 80% "white" well into the next century.
EJM|8.14.08 @ 3:11PM|#
I came across
this official Census map on Wikipedia some time ago--and, as
someone of German and Norwegian heritage, appreciate the large
amount of light blue (or is it blue-gray?).
P.S.: I filled out the ethnicity portion of my Census 2000 form,
but I did play havoc with their insistence on "first name, middle
initial, last name".
|8.14.08 @ 3:11PM|#
As in Congress may, by law, direct the Census.
So maybe you think it's an unwise use of constitutionally granted
authority for Congress to direct the Census in its current fashion,
but it ain't unconstitutional.
Taktix®|8.14.08 @ 3:11PM|#
Americans who identify themselves as Hispanic, black, Asian,
American Indian, Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander will together
outnumber non-Hispanic whites.
I still never understood why Hawaiians got their own category. Was
it part of a treaty or something?
robc|8.14.08 @ 3:12PM|#
J sub D,
In 2000 the wife and I left that blank. They got age and sex
and nothing else. Amazingly enough they didn't come back and ask
for more data.
I got the long form in 2000. They got my name*, phone number*,
address, number of people in household. That was it.
*I gave them these in case they wanted to contact me/charge me for
failing to fill out my census form properly.
I gave them everything they needed for determining house districts
and electoral votes.
BDB|8.14.08 @ 3:13PM|#
What the hell do Chinese have in common with Polynesians anyway?
Two very distinct groups put under the same heading. Stupid.
For that matter, East Indians, Chinese, and Polynesians are all the
same category. They need to re-think those labels.
BDB|8.14.08 @ 3:13PM|#
That map really shows how black population is still heavily concentrated in the South.
|8.14.08 @ 3:14PM|#
"I just love it when our TV News talking heads go on about San
Antonio's (>60%) "Hispanic minority."
I lived in San Antonio for several years. I suppose if you lived on
the South side you might feel out of place, but living on the north
side in the good areas of towns I never felt like I was anywhere
but the US.
One of my friends' family was from Monterey, Mexico. He was fairly
light skinned and very American. He hate Tajano music. Tajano music
is basically Mexican cowboy music. On the news "Mexican music"
always meant Tejano music. Used to drive him nuts. Of course us
pointing to the Tejano stage at Fiesta every year and going "Carlos
your people" didn't help.
robc|8.14.08 @ 3:14PM|#
MNG,
Who hates the census? I just gave the constitutionally required
information. I dont hate THAT part of the census.
BDB|8.14.08 @ 3:15PM|#
John IIRC Texan Hispanics are much more Americanized than their Californian brethern.
robc|8.14.08 @ 3:16PM|#
MNG,
Actually, I think it is unconstitutional for them to require any
questions other than those needed for the censuses purpose. If "as
the law directs" including sacrificing your children as a part of
the census process, would that be constitutional? And would you do
it?
robc|8.14.08 @ 3:20PM|#
Although my county shows up on the map posted above as "german", Im proud that my state appears to have the highest percent of counties claiming "American" as our ancestry.
|8.14.08 @ 3:22PM|#
robc-It's clearly constitutional for the Census to ask any questions "directed by Law." See the Constitution.
Nigel Watt|8.14.08 @ 3:24PM|#
Texan Hispanics are very much American, and they want to be even more so (from my experience). Except LULAC.
robc|8.14.08 @ 3:24PM|#
MNG,
Its not at all clear that they can ask any questions beyond those
needed. I think I could make a reasonable 5th amendment argument,
for one thing. "As the law directs" would mean "by paper, or by
internet, or by a census taker stopping at your house", its not
referring to what questions they are allowed to ask.
|8.14.08 @ 3:26PM|#
I have taken to calling myself a "Heinz57-American" after my great aunt traced the family tree back. She lost track of the lines in Ireland, England and Italy and unfortunately the Sioux were not known for keeping written records.
Taktix®|8.14.08 @ 3:29PM|#
I came across this official Census map on Wikipedia some
time ago
Decent showing for my Irish side, but damn, only one county in
the whole U.S. is majority Polish?!? I guess that side
couldn't figure out how to fill out the form...
robc|8.14.08 @ 3:29PM|#
MNG,
To clarify even more, the constitution only allows for "an
enumeration...in such manner as they shall by law direct"
Anything beyond an enumeration is not allowed. Asking about race,
sex, age, number of miles I drive to work, etc, etc, goes beyond an
enumeration. The last part allows for different means of collecting
the enumeration.
|8.14.08 @ 3:29PM|#
The current U.S. population is about 300 million. There are
roughly 46 million Hispanic Americans, 40 million African
Americans, 35 million Irish Americans, 16 million Italian
Americans, 15 million Asian Americans, 10 million Polish Americans,
3 million Greek Americans, and 3 million Russian Americans. That's
a majority right there, and I've left out a bunch of ethnic
groups.
What the FUCK!!
What about the Cornish?!?!?!
I guess i should not bitch i do have some Russian and polish and
probably some Irish to boot. Still my Welsh blood is boiling with
indignation.
Anyone else notice we have more Irish then Ireland
|8.14.08 @ 3:29PM|#
That's pretty broad language, suggesting a broad grant. Direct
would certainly and reasonably mean the kind of questions asked.
How would you argue that the language "direct" rules out the kind
of questions asked? I'd like to hear that one...
Your 5th Amendment argument is silly, you're only protected there
in "any criminal case."
This is a case of libertarians reading what they think SHOULD have
been in the Constitution into the text.
robc|8.14.08 @ 3:31PM|#
Taktix,
only one county in the whole U.S. is majority
Polish?
We also did a good job separating the frenchies as far apart as
reasonably possible.
|8.14.08 @ 3:32PM|#
Enumerate means literally "to determine the number of : count." That's what they do when they count race, sex, commuting time, etc.
robc|8.14.08 @ 3:33PM|#
MNG,
1. enumeration is not a broad grant, that is a very specific
word.
2. The 5th amendment argument is kinda silly, but it isnt just
criminal. The last clause "nor shall private property be taken for
public use, without just compensation". Information about my
household is private property and they are trying to get it for a
public use. Without paying. The fair market value for knowing how
far I drive to work is really damn expensive too. I realize that
clause has virtually no meaning anymore, but Im not ignoring
it.
|8.14.08 @ 3:34PM|#
If it said "an enumeration of the number of voting age citizens"
then you might have some kind of case.
It doesn't, btw. It just says enumerate and then further clarifies
and suggests a very broad idea of that by adding "as directed by
law."
|8.14.08 @ 3:34PM|#
What a mind-bogglingly naive things to write.
Ever seen the mall cops follow around two Irish kids?
|8.14.08 @ 3:35PM|#
"The current U.S. population is about 300 million. There are
roughly 46 million Hispanic Americans, 40 million African
Americans, 35 million Irish Americans, 16 million Italian
Americans, 15 million Asian Americans, 10 million Polish Americans,
3 million Greek Americans, and 3 million Russian Americans. That's
a majority right there, and I've left out a bunch of ethnic
groups."
If you consider the "one drop rule" that needs to be rewritten to
read that 46 million Americans have some form of Hispanic
background and so forth. That is really all it means. Under the
current system RC Dean with is Apache grandmother counts as a
"native American" just as much as a Navaho who has never left the
reservation. The catagories have long since lossed their
meaning.
|8.14.08 @ 3:37PM|#
robc-
How many voting age citizens are in a district is also information
that people pay for all the time, and noone thinks you the Census,
in getting that, it "taking" your private property.
You're just being weasley now.
robc|8.14.08 @ 3:37PM|#
MNG,
Enumerate in that context means "count number of people". The
compiling of the other statistics are not part of this
enumeration.
The constitution should never be read broadly, especially in the
main articles. It was meant to grant very specific powers to the
federal government that wouldnt otherwise exist. The need to count
people for representation and direct taxastion requires was all
that was needed and thus, all that was granted.
robc|8.14.08 @ 3:39PM|#
MNG,
If it said "an enumeration of the number of voting age
citizens" then you might have some kind of case.
Voting age citizens doesnt matter. Representation and direct
taxation are determined by total number of residents (+ 3/5ths of
all slaves), whether voting age or not, whether citizen or not.
|8.14.08 @ 3:39PM|#
Lots of straw being thrown about about the "one drop rule." If you actually think that somebody with seven white great-grandparents and one black great-grandmother is going to be considered black either by law or in their everyday life, you're nuts.
robc|8.14.08 @ 3:40PM|#
MNG,
You keep leaving off the work "manner". The "manner" of the
enumeration can by as law directs: paper, everyone gathering in
town square, census collector, internet, phone, yelling really loud
all at once, whatever stupid means of saying "aye" in a collectible
way that congress comes up with.
|8.14.08 @ 3:41PM|#
"Enumerate in that context means "count number of people". The
compiling of the other statistics are not part of this
enumeration."
On what do you base that meaning?
The broad language of the grant? The lack of the specifying words
that would lend some credence to your reading?
BDB|8.14.08 @ 3:41PM|#
IIRC even in 1790 the census did more than just count people. The people who actually wrote the Constitution were still alive and in power and didn't cry foul at that.
|8.14.08 @ 3:44PM|#
You don't think "whatever manner" Congress decides on includes
the very questions asked?
If you take a "Methods" class in social science they won't stop at
whether you should do a phone survey or a mail survey, they will
cover the actual questions to be asked. It's all included in the
"manner" of collecting data.
robc|8.14.08 @ 3:44PM|#
BDB,
They added on age and sex at some point, but I dont think it was
until the 2nd or 3rd census. I have looked thru early 1800s census
record, they had names of adults and number of kids and sometimes
ages and sometimes even the names and ages of the kids, but that
was inconsistent.
For more than that, you had to get to much later censuses.
The initial congresses did lots of stuff that was unconstitutional.
Alien and Sedition Acts anyone?
|8.14.08 @ 3:46PM|#
"noone thinks
I do. Thus, you are wrong."
robc
So you are maintining that the 5th Amendment takings clause
prohibits the Census from counting how many people live in your
house (the most narrow and strained view of "enumeration")? SO on
the one hand the Constitution mandates this taking, and then
prohibits it?
You see the nonsense your view on this leads to.
BDB|8.14.08 @ 3:46PM|#
Robc-
They did do race in 1790. The country was 80% white, 20%
"African".
By the late 1800s the race categories were truly strange.
"Mulatto", "Octaroon", "Quadroon", etc.
|8.14.08 @ 3:47PM|#
"If you actually think that somebody with seven white
great-grandparents and one black great-grandmother is going to be
considered black either by law or in their everyday life, you're
nuts."
Certainly by the dopes who run Universities and government programs
they will be. Could they avail themselves of discrimination laws?
That depends. First, just because you only have one out of eight
great grandparents who is black doesn't mean you will not look
black. It depends on how the genes work out. Second, it also
depends on how you identify yourself. Certainly, a lot of people
with very little actual Indian DNA identify themselves as Indians.
If you identify yourself publicly as an Indian or a Hispanic and
have one drop of blood to that effect, you are protected from
discrimination under the law. If that isn't being "treated as a
minority" I don't see what is.
BDB|8.14.08 @ 3:48PM|#
John is right about that. Thats how Ward Churchill passed himself of as "Native American" even though hes 7/8ths white or something.
|8.14.08 @ 3:49PM|#
But beyond that Joe, you are right in some ways in that if you are only 1/8th black you probably are not black in any cultural sense. But you are still counted by the census as "black" which renders their numbers pretty meaningless.
robc|8.14.08 @ 3:50PM|#
MNG,
You cant use modern data collection methods and terms to determine
what they meant in the 1780s. They needed a method to collect
counts. Nothing more.
Look, they felt they needed to include this clause for a reason,
its because without the clause, a census would be unconstitutional.
And, as is clear from other places, despite modern interpretations
(like commerce clause), they rarely gave broad powers, only
specific ones. They needed a means to count people for
representation purposes. They granted congress the power to make
this happen and left the methodology to congress. To collect more
information than that does not make sense with the way the rest of
the constitution works (although it makes perfect sense with the
way the rest has been treated - if you also favor a broad commerce
clause and a broad general welfare clause then you are, at least,
being consistent).
|8.14.08 @ 3:52PM|#
Certainly by the dopes who run Universities and government
programs they will be.
No, they won't. You just completely made that up, and don't have a
shred of evidence. I defy you find a case of someone with one black
great-grandparent and 7 white ones who was listed as
African-American by a university or treated as such by the
admissions department. Alternately, you could find a statement from
a university indicating that it is their policy to do that. Until
then, I'll continue to use the word "nuts" to describe this
belief.
Second, it also depends on how you identify yourself.
Which refutes the assertion that there is a "one drop rule," since
a "one drop rule" is about defining people's racial categories
regardless of how they define themselves.
robc|8.14.08 @ 3:52PM|#
MNG,
You see the nonsense your view on this leads to.
Why are you arguing with something I called a "silly" argument. I
said I could make a 5th amendment argument, I didnt say it would be
any good, that one probably doesnt hold up too well. :)
The base reading of the Article in question, however, holds up
well.
|8.14.08 @ 3:53PM|#
The 1790 Census asked about race. This was right after adoption
of the Constitution whose original meaning we are trying to
discern.
http://www2.census.gov/prod2/decennial/documents/1790b-02.pdf
|8.14.08 @ 3:54PM|#
BDB,
When it became known that Ward Churchill was only 1/8 American
Indian, it destroyed his reputation as an American Indian scholar,
and he was widely derided as a fraud.
robc|8.14.08 @ 3:54PM|#
MNG,
As I pointed out, so was the Alien and Sedition Acts. Well, late
90s, but same frickin guys.
|8.14.08 @ 3:55PM|#
John,
But you are still counted by the census as "black" which
renders their numbers pretty meaningless. No, you're not. If
such a person checked white, they'd be counted as white. If he
chacked multi-racial, he'd be counted as multi-racial.
|8.14.08 @ 3:56PM|#
Look at the II Article of the Constitution. You don't have to be
Bushite unitary executive to think that broad grants of power were
not that unusual in the Constitution.
For that matter the 1st Article had plenty of broad grants. The
Congress may have the powers "To make Rules for the Government and
Regulation of the land and naval Forces."
To make rules. That's a pretty broad grant!
|8.14.08 @ 3:57PM|#
John,
...and if you didn't fill out the census form, and the census
bureau sent someone around to fill in the blanks, a person with 7
white great-grandparents and 1 black great-grandparent would almost
certainly be put down as white.
|8.14.08 @ 3:59PM|#
Here you go Joe from your own hometown paper
http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2004/10/10/on_ethnicity_thinking_out_of_box/
"For students of mixed ethnic backgrounds, such choices raise one
key question: How will picking one or the other affect my chances
of getting in?
Admissions counselors at colleges that have this choice say that
such students receive the same preference in admissions or
affirmative-action programs that they would if they checked only a
single minority box. Dan Lundquist, vice president for admissions
and financial aid at Union College in upstate New York, says such
students should receive the benefits of affirmative action because
"they represent an important element of diversity."
Lundquist acknowledges that some students may claim multiple ethnic
backgrounds on the basis of "being 1/64th American Indian" and he
says that there is some "vanishing point" at which such applicants
aren't adding much diversity. But he says that admissions
counselors' "vigilance and professionalism" prevents abuses."
Some vanishing point? Whatever that is. That is functionally a one
drop rule. If someone puts themselves down as black or hispanic or
whatever, and they really do have some of that backround, I find it
very difficult to believe that any college will deny them on
it.
|8.14.08 @ 4:00PM|#
btw-I don't buy the amorphous reading of the Commerce Clause,
and I think the General Welfare clause is just preamble. I probably
agree on more of this Constitutional stuff than you may imagine,
but I just think it's a hard case to state that the Census, even in
its bloated form, is unconstitutional. Unwise policy, maybe.
Unconstitutional, hard to argue...
Bottom line, the Founders were more libertarian than our current
lot, but they were certainly not "libertarians" nor did they design
the Constitution to be a libertarian manifesto...
|8.14.08 @ 4:01PM|#
"and if you didn't fill out the census form, and the census
bureau sent someone around to fill in the blanks, a person with 7
white great-grandparents and 1 black great-grandparent would almost
certainly be put down as white."
I am not so sure about that. If I were 1/8th black I would be
putting down black on every government form I filled out. I suspect
I am not alone in that.
robc|8.14.08 @ 4:03PM|#
joe,
Depends if they send by the random sampling double checker. I got
that guy in 2k, he checked off white as my race even though I
refused to give him an answer to the question of my race.
He also guessed at my age. At that point I closed the door on
him.
BDB,
Actually, they didnt ask race in 1790. They had 5 columns of
information (plus name of HoH):
Free White Males 16+
Free White Males under 16
Free White Females
Other Free persons
Slaves
While I would argue that they only needed 2:
Free People
Slaves
it could be argued that other info was needed for determining
number of members of the militia, but I think that is an abuse of
the census department, but maybe not much of an abuse.
Personally, I dont have much problem with the census asking the
extra questions as long as it is voluntary. There are a few
mandatory questions.
robc|8.14.08 @ 4:05PM|#
To make rules. That's a pretty broad grant!
Not really, it only applies to land and naval forces, thats a
narrow grant.
|8.14.08 @ 4:06PM|#
John,
Nope, fail. The fact that there is a "vanishing point" is exactly
the opposite of a One Drop Rule.
The fact that what someone puts down is involved in the decision
makes that exactly the opposite of the one-drop rule.
The One Drop Rule - which actually existed in the law - stated that
a person with any African ancentry was considered black, regardless
of how they self-identify. If someone with a black ancestor can be
considered white, bam, no one drop rule. If somone with a black
ancestor can be considered white under any circumstances, bam, no
one drop rule.
The term One Drop Rule has an actual meaning. You're applying it
wrongly, and I think you're doing it purely for emotional
effect.
robc|8.14.08 @ 4:07PM|#
MNG,
Bottom line, the Founders were more libertarian than our
current lot, but they were certainly not "libertarians" nor did
they design the Constitution to be a libertarian
manifesto...
I agree. Hell, most of them werent libertarian at all, just enough
of them to force certain issuees. But, considering the
anti-federalist pressures, they couldnt make too strong a central
government, no matter what Hamilton wanted.
When I reread constitutional debates, I tend to think the
anti-federalists were right.
|8.14.08 @ 4:07PM|#
One more thing Joe. As people intermarry more and more, they answers they give on those questions mean less and less. This is especially true with regard to Hispanics where there is a high intermarriage rate. There are a ton of people out there who have one parent who is first generation hispanic immigrant and one parent who is white. Are they really hispanic? A lot of them will probably say so on the census form but I don't see how that answer says much one way or another.
robc|8.14.08 @ 4:08PM|#
joe,
There was always a vanishing point. We are all descendents of at
least one black person (actually, we are all descendents of very
many black people), so the rule was never applied strictly as
written.
|8.14.08 @ 4:09PM|#
No Joe, you misunderstand my point. Those numbers, whatever they are, are not reflective of the reality of society since fewer and fewer people are only of one race.
Antiglobalist|8.14.08 @ 4:11PM|#
Pluralism always fails. Whether it's ethnic, religious or even
political.
If you disagree, name the great successes of pluralism throughout
history and how long they lasted, please.
|8.14.08 @ 4:11PM|#
robc
If they reported the number of free whites vs. the number of free
blacks vs. the number of free women, vs. the number of free whites
under 16 vs. the number of free whites over 16, then how do you
figure they did not ask questions about race, sex and age?
robc|8.14.08 @ 4:12PM|#
MNG,
What race are those "other free persons"?
They didnt ask about free blacks.
|8.14.08 @ 4:12PM|#
John,
I agree with this:
As people intermarry more and more, they answers they give on
those questions mean less and less. Or, it will mean less and
less for more and more people. There will still be plenty of people
- probably a majority or close to it - in any race who marry
someone of the same race.
But on the larger point that the boundaries of racial categories
are less clear now than they were in the past, and will become even
less clear in the future, I think you're right. Still, I compare it
to (what else?) neighborhoods. Once a upon a time, the South Side
and Happyville each had a commercial center, surrounded by houses,
and a stretch of farmland in between. Today, there is the center of
South Side, the center of Happyville, and all of the area between
them is full of houses. Some of those houses are in South Side.
Some of them are in Happyville. Some could be both or neither.
Nonetheless, there is still a South Side and a Happyville.
robc|8.14.08 @ 4:13PM|#
MNG,
I guess
Please check one:
White
Other
may be a question about race, but not much of one.
|8.14.08 @ 4:14PM|#
robc,
Certainly, there is no true, hard line. Race is
socially-constructed.
But so is the value of the U.S. dollar. Nonetheless, it is very
real, we all understand it's real, it has real effects on our
lives, and we can talk about it meaningfully.
robc|8.14.08 @ 4:15PM|#
joe,
Nonetheless, there is still a South Side and a
Happyville.
This reminds me of a comment in a Niven novel/short story (I forget
which one).
It talks about the metropolis stretching from Seattle to San Diego,
but no one but historians remembered which end was which.
That story represents Brazil racially.
robc|8.14.08 @ 4:17PM|#
joe,
Certainly, there is no true, hard line.
That was my point. Even when/where the "one drop" rule existed, it
wasnt applied as written, it had some sort of cut off. Otherwise,
everyone would have been black.
|8.14.08 @ 4:19PM|#
U.S. Const. Art. I Sec. II "The actual Enumeration shall be
made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of
the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years,
in such Manner as they shall by Law direct."
The last clause gives Congress the authority to specify the manner
in which an "actual Enumeration" may be done. It doesn't give
Congress the authority to engage in anything more than an actual
Enumeration.
The real question, I think, is what counts as an actual
Enumeration. Since the purpose is to divvy up House districts, I
don't see how race, etc. comes into it.
|8.14.08 @ 4:20PM|#
My constitutional objections to answering intrusive question in
the census follows.
Specific guarantees in the Bill of Rights have penumbra, formed by
emanations from those guarantees that help give them life and
substance. Zones of privacy emanate from the First Amendment's
penumbra right of association, the Third Amendment's prohibition
against the quartering of soldiers in any house without consent in
peacetime, the fourth's guarantee against unreasonable searches and
seizures, and the fifth's privilege against
self-incrimination.
Any questions other than name, age and sex violate one of my zones
of privacy.
Is that good enough for you? You may have come across this line of
reasoning in your reading somewhwere.
|8.14.08 @ 4:22PM|#
robc
It was at least that (white, non-white), and so yes, a question on
race.
And sex and age.
robc|8.14.08 @ 4:22PM|#
The 3rd amendment: Americans strongest amendment!!
There should be a documentary or something.
|8.14.08 @ 4:23PM|#
robc,
Since nobody knew about the existence of the African origins of
homo sapiens when the One Drop Rule existed, there wasn't actually
such a cutoff.
robc|8.14.08 @ 4:23PM|#
MNG,
Notice they didnt care about the age of the women or them others
(or the age/sex of the slaves)? I dont know what to make of that.
Like I said, the 16+ for free white males might have been for
militia purposes. Not really sure.
|8.14.08 @ 4:26PM|#
The Census Bureau does conduct an actual enumeration. Then, they
do other things as well. I don't see any language saying they
govenrment can't do other forms of studies.
How is adding race and number of toilet questions (seriously, wtf?)
to the census form any less legal than having a United States
Geological Survey to make soils maps, or sending Lewis and Clark to
find mammoths?
robc|8.14.08 @ 4:26PM|#
joe,
Im not referring to the African origin, Im making a much later
reference. Im referring to the mathematical analysis that has shown
that anyone who was alive ~3000 (2k if they lived in the middle
east) years ago who has living descendents today is actually an
ancestor of everyone alive today. Of course, this analysis is only
a few years old at best.
The lack of knowledge of this analysis shows that there was a de
facto cut off (how far back we know our lineage) if not a de jure
one.
ellipsis|8.14.08 @ 4:27PM|#
I'm 1/8th Scottish, which by clan rules means I can wear a
kilt.
Also, Native American nations accept anybody with 1/8 or more of
that tribe's ancestry.
Perhaps silly, but the line has to be drawn somewhere.
robc|8.14.08 @ 4:27PM|#
joe,
I don't see any language saying they govenrment can't do other
forms of studies.
The federal government is only granted specifically listed powers.
They cant do other forms of studies because they were not given the
power to do other forms of studies. It doesnt have to say they cant
do it. It must say they can do it.
|8.14.08 @ 4:28PM|#
IIRC, the law only requires you to fill out the # of persons,
age, and sex columns. Everything else is voluntary.
It can't be a violation of your privacy rights if you can ignore it
at will.
robc|8.14.08 @ 4:29PM|#
joe,
How is adding race and number of toilet questions (seriously,
wtf?) to the census form any less legal than having a United States
Geological Survey to make soils maps, or sending Lewis and Clark to
find mammoths?
It isnt. Although, L&C might be defensible on national defense
grounds. Lewis was a Colonel or something wasnt he?
|8.14.08 @ 4:30PM|#
robc,
So, it's illegal to have a USGS. Lewis and Clark's expeditions were
unconstitutional. Gotcha.
Good luck with that one.
Rhywun|8.14.08 @ 4:31PM|#
"American"=rednecked Scots-Irish, usually.
Yeah, I was wondering about that.
only one county in the whole U.S. is majority Polish?!?
And it's not Erie County, NY (Buffalo)??
Actually, these don't seem to be "majorities" but rather
"pluralities". Otherwise how else is New York County "Dominican"?
Either way it's an exercise in silliness.
|8.14.08 @ 4:31PM|#
Lewis was a Colonel or something wasnt he?
So the entirety of your argument would vanish if the head of either
the Census Bureau or the Commerce Department held a military
rank?
C'mon.
robc|8.14.08 @ 4:32PM|#
joe,
I think you IIRC wrong. I would be okay with what you said (age and
sex are too far, but Im nothing if not reasonable. That is a
reasonable compromise on my part :) ). I got the long form and from
my reading (which may have been wrong) my failure to fill it out in
its entirety was punishable by something like a $500 fine and up to
1 year in jail.
GILMORE|8.14.08 @ 4:33PM|#
Neither here not there, but I stumbled on an interesting sort of
neo-nazi racist-nationalist website full of big-wordy data
tinkerers who use charts and graphs and stuff to say some really
fucking stupid shit =
http://majorityrights.com/index.php/weblog/comments/alon_ziv_on_race_mixing/
here they conclude that the baby that that black songwriter 'Seal'
had with ("deranged") white-hottie Heidi Klum aint nearly as pretty
as the nice white baby girl she'd had with some other whiter
fella.
Only he says it like this =
"The malformed mulatto neonate has grown into a retarded-looking
malformed toddler; contrast his features with the beauty of the
white child Heidi Klum had previously"
All this learns me is that total fucking idiots love to use lotsa
fancy words to make the crazyness less obvious. Or to make
themselves feel like they teh smarters than the darkies.
here's the thinking man's version of the Black Isrealites 12-Tribes
theory...
http://wiki.majorityrights.com/race
In case you've never seen the Black Israelites thing... =
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv1wbWGds2s
I've done this before, where I'd hang out with them, and be like,
"YEAH!... Totally! White people want to fuck dead people! Say it
again! WHoo hoo! You guys want to play fight with swords?"
Best line ever = "Germans are known all over the world for
promoting pornography with excrement"
All i can say for sure from all my research, is that racists really
like to dress up in funny costumes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOZbdKLY3Lk&feature=related
Thank god for that too.
Dude, there's so many funny videos featuring Black Hebrews vs. The
World!! It's better than the Godzilla Series!
Black Israelite vs. 2 Mormons in Bike Helmets!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q5gS2uAOSU&feature=related
Mormons get pwned!!
Warty|8.14.08 @ 4:33PM|#
When it became known that Ward Churchill was only 1/8
American Indian, it destroyed his reputation as an American Indian
scholar, and he was widely derided as a fraud.
I thought this smelled like bullshit, so I took a look around. Lo
and behold, he's not 1/8 Indian, he's 0/8 Indian:
The Rocky Mountain News, in 2005, published a genealogy of Churchill, and reported "no evidence of a single Indian ancestor" [of Churchill's]. The News reports that both of Churchill's birth parents are listed as white on the 1930 census, as are all of his other known ancestors on previous censuses and other official documents.[22] The Denver Post's genealogical investigation resulted in the same conclusion.
It amuses me that I'm more Indian than this fraud. At least I think
so...I'm somehow blood related to Will Rogers, and he supposedly
was 1/32 Cherokee or something. Whatever. This blood/tribal
bullshit is stupid.
robc|8.14.08 @ 4:34PM|#
joe,
No, that only applied to exploring the territory. Teh census bureau
isnt defending the borders. If L&C could be considered a
military trip to plan border defense, which I think it can, it
*MIGHT* survive constitutional muster.
Dont read things I didnt say into my writing. You of all
people.
|8.14.08 @ 4:34PM|#
J sub D rocks!
MNG left this out of his Constitution quote:
Art. I, Sec. 3. Representatives and direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective numbers, which shall be determined by adding the whole number of free persons, including those bound to service for a term of years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three-fifths of all other persons.
The purpose of the enumeration was outlined here as to:
1.) Count people for purposes of representation and
2.) Count people for purposes of taxation. Remember that, under the
original Constitution, Federal spending had in any state had to be
in proportion to the taxation of that state. The 3/5ths compromise
related to both representation and taxation.
So, census questions that stray from the original purpose of
determining representation in the House are ultra vires.
The Federal spending function has been rendered moot by the 16th
Amendment, unless someone can prove that its ratification was
fraudulent. [ Big :) ]
Kevin
robc|8.14.08 @ 4:35PM|#
Good luck with that one.
Im well aware that SCOTUS and I disagree on constitutional
issues.
|8.14.08 @ 4:36PM|#
I got the long form
You poor bastard. No wonder you hate the census.
I suspect the form used ambiguous language like "this form" and
didn't specify that you had to fill it out in its entirety. People
submit incomplete forms all the time. The census bureau follows up
to get the data they can get, but you can't be prosecuted unless
you blow off the form entirely.
Now I have to go back and check the most borning book in the world
from the grad course I took.
GILMORE|8.14.08 @ 4:39PM|#
as a follow up I would like to add that the Irish are a vile
breed of papists who thrive at nothing other than drink, violence,
debauchery and song, and will undermine our values and mix with our
women and destroy the fabric of our great nation.
And we're doing it too!!! In your face, America!
|8.14.08 @ 4:39PM|#
No, that only applied to exploring the territory.
Then show me the language that authorizes the government to explore
the territory.
Or record plant and animal specimens.
robc|8.14.08 @ 4:40PM|#
joe,
You poor bastard. No wonder you hate the census.
I decided before it came in 2k that I was only filling out minimum
info. The fact that it was the long form didnt change the 10
seconds or so it took to fill it out, I didnt even have to turn to
page 2. I did spend some time looking at all the dumbass questions
they asked of me.
You may be right about the law. I wasnt actually worried about
being prosecuted for failing to fill out the whole thing, but I
figured it was a possibility.
robc|8.14.08 @ 4:43PM|#
joe,
Dont fucking cut off my quotes.
"No, that only applied to exploring the territory. Teh census
bureau isnt defending the borders. If L&C could be considered a
military trip to plan border defense"
Im pretty sure I can show where the federal government has the
power to use the military to defend the borders. Finding where the
borders actually are seems to be a key part of that. :)
Im not sure if L&C was a legitimate military journey or not, Im
just saying it might be possibe to consider it one.
Heck, Im not sure the Louisiana Purchase was constitutional.
Taktix®|8.14.08 @ 4:44PM|#
What about the Cornish?!?!?!
I guess i should not bitch i do have some Russian and polish and
probably some Irish to boot. Still my Welsh blood is boiling with
indignation.
Uhh, Josh, Cornwall and Wales are two different regions.
Just sayin'.
|8.14.08 @ 4:49PM|#
Don't swear over nothing, especially when the only part of the
quote that is relevant is the fucking part I quoted.
Lewis and Clark did far more than explore the territory for
military purposes - they explored it for scientific and political
purposes as well. It can be considered to have a military purpose
IN ADDITION TO other purposes, which were precisely the same as the
purposes of those additional census questions. If anything, the
"military purpose" was the least significant.
So, we find ourselves with two precisely equivalent studies, if we
go with your idea that the L&C mission was a military one. The
government undertakes an activity under a specifically numerated
power, then expands the scope of that undertaking to include
additional studies.
robc|8.14.08 @ 4:56PM|#
joe,
The 3rd sentence was relevant. My argument wasnt about general
exploration, it was about exploration for military purposes. The
fact that I put a 2nd sentence between there is bad form on my
part, but doesnt mean you get to split my thought up just because I
did. :)
Where did I say I considered Lewis and Clark constitutional? The
fact that it wasnt for military purpose probably means it wasnt. I
just gave TJ and out to argue from.
So, we find ourselves with two precisely equivalent studies, if
we go with your idea that the L&C mission was a military one.
The government undertakes an activity under a specifically
numerated power, then expands the scope of that undertaking to
include additional studies.
A. It wasnt my idea that it was military, I think I even put it in
the form of a question, but Im too lazy to scroll up to see.
B. Like the census, the expansion beyond the legal stuff would be
unconstitutional. So, I agree, if we take them as equivalent, they
should be treated equivalently.
GILMORE|8.14.08 @ 4:57PM|#
I propose this thread devolve into a niggling bitchfest over
some minor historical misinterpretation, where each party pretends
to have all facts and constitutional authority at their
disposal.
Or, we can talk about crazy black hebrews.??! Come on!
robc|8.14.08 @ 4:58PM|#
GILMORE,
I agree. The niggling bitchfest is clearly preferable to discussing
black hebrews.
|8.14.08 @ 4:58PM|#
BTW, I shamelessly cribbed my reasoning from that used by
Justice William O. Douglas in Griswold
vs Connecticut.
Liberals (clasical ones in particular) love this ruling.
Warty|8.14.08 @ 4:59PM|#
I was still in high school at the time of the 2000 census, and I
remember that almost every house in the neighborhood got the long
form. It's a very hoity-toity neighborhood full of doctors and
lawyers (we're the Beverly Hillbillies. We have cars in the yard
and 50 guns or something, and we blow the neighbors' minds by doing
our own house and yard maintenance), so we assumed there were some
kind shenanigans going on, like someone somewhere wanted to
artificially raise the average income figures or something. My
parents and a bunch of the neighbors didn't fill out anything
except the names and ages of the people in the household.
Some months later, I came home from school to see a car sitting in
front of the house with two stern looking middle-aged women sitting
in it. Being a little creeped out, I went over to them. They told
me that they were from the Census Bureau, and had come to collect
the information that we hadn't filled out. I think they said
something about criminal penalties, but I may have invented that
memory. It's been 8 years, after all.
Anyway, I told them to go away and went inside and drank some
stolen Genessee Cream Ale and fondled some guns. We never heard
from the Census again.
Charles|8.14.08 @ 5:01PM|#
It is a scientific fact, from some book I can't remember, that mixed race women tend to be better looking that single (?) race women.
robc|8.14.08 @ 5:02PM|#
J sub D,
Thanks for the link. I had know idea Douglas actually used the 3rd
amendment in that ruling. What a dumbass.
robc|8.14.08 @ 5:03PM|#
Charles,
Hybrid vigor?
It also explains Tiger Woods golf game. Not that I would make that
argument.
robc|8.14.08 @ 5:05PM|#
"All these emanations failed to impress dissenting Justice
Stewart, who could find no constitutional infringements whatever in
the law. In what conceivable way, asked he, did Connecticut's
birth-control law violate the Third Amendment ban against
quartering soldiers in private homes?"
From the linky J sub gave us.
robc|8.14.08 @ 5:07PM|#
If Douglas can decide Griswold on 3rd amendment grounds (in part) then I dont think my 5th amendment suggestion above is even remotely silly. In comparison.
GILMORE|8.14.08 @ 5:07PM|#
robc | August 14, 2008, 4:58pm | #
GILMORE,
I agree. The niggling bitchfest is clearly preferable to discussing
black hebrews.
Awwww.
But they have *costumes*!!
Charles | August 14, 2008, 5:01pm | #
It is a scientific fact, from some book I can't
remember...
This is one of my favorite lines ever.
I was actually technically registered in the US as an Eskimo until
i was about 21. I consistently lied on all my state required tests
like Regents and AP and SAT and whatnot, and it made its way
somehow into the system. I thought of myself as Nanook of New
York.
Hey, they didnt have 'dirty irish' as an ethnic tickbox. what do
you want.
Charles|8.14.08 @ 5:10PM|#
Hybrid vigor sounds right-ish. It also explains why so many dalmatians are so stupid.
|8.14.08 @ 5:15PM|#
Joe, you've been around here for a while. Are you really
surprised that many of us have a fairly restrictive view of what
the constitution authorizes?
And, prior to moving to Vermont, I lived in Jackson MS, Augusta GA,
and New Orleans. Can I tell you what interesting characteristic
they all share? My white ass was in the minority. You know what? I
miss the visual diversity. I wouldn't mind a little more diversity
in Vermont.
GILMORE|8.14.08 @ 5:34PM|#
robc | August 14, 2008, 5:09pm | #
GILMORE,
Land any eskimo scholarships?
In fact YES mon frere! Good read!
My dad was so pissed. Cornell and Dartmouth both invited me to
visit in a special "diversity recruiting" drive. Other colleges
sent all sorts of unexpected recruiting media to our home. My pop
finally caught on when he reviewed my transcripts, then forced me
to write letters to the schools and then to the College Board that
provided my test scores to universities to both apologize and
correct the confusion. In my heart of hearts though, i still FELT
eskimo. Even now I yearn for a chunk of raw seal meat.
I'd actually been applying to Cornell anyway and he was pissed
because i'd probably screwed any chance of getting in. Brown
probably didnt care, but he wasnt paying for me to go there in any
case (*too libberal and lamo)
I fortunately ended up going to a top-flight racist southern
university. They thought "Yankee" was fucked-up-diverse enough as
it was.
|8.14.08 @ 6:12PM|#
Yes, that language is there (I didn't cut it out for nefarious
purposes but because it is very long and obscures the point I was
making, that of the very breadth of the "as directed by law"
provision). To paraphrase, fairly I think, the Constitution here
says "congresspersons will be allocated based on a count, which
will be done however Congress decides." That's the paraphrase, and
to argue that the first part, which proposes a purpose for the
count, controls the specific grant of discretion in the second, is
a hard argument to make. I'm not sure why anyone who doesn't
already just hate to see the government do "more stuff as opposed
to less" would ever buy it.
And as robc admits, the Founders were not a bunch of guys who
necessarily hated seeing the government do more stuff. They
certainly wanted it to do less stuff than our current leaders do,
but they were hardly libertarians. They wanted a national
government that was limited, yes, but also vigorous, and while they
often were very specific in their grants of power they also used
broad grants too (like "make rules for the navy and army" or "any
manner directed by law"). So there is not even really a compelling
argument to be made that historical or textual context exists to
over-ride the most reasonable explanation of the language, that
there is to be a count but done however the Congress decides. And
the Congress has decided to stick all those extra questions in.
Notably there is NO language explicitly placing ANY limit on the
type of information to be gathered. None.
|8.14.08 @ 6:14PM|#
And let's be fair to Griswold. The argument was not that the 3rd
Amendment controlled, it was that if you look at the 9th's promise
of unenumerated rights, and then in trying to discern what they are
you notice that the 1st, the 5th, the 3rd, the 4th, etc., all seem
to touch on the same abstract right of privacy (privacy of thought,
privacy of home, privacy of stuff), then you get a right of
privacy.
It's not the strongest argument in the world, but it's not as
terrible as many of its detractors make it out to be imo.
|8.14.08 @ 6:19PM|#
I don't see any language saying they govenrment can't do
other forms of studies.
And there we have the descent into the Total State in a
nutshell.
This is supposed to be a government of enumerated powers. The first
question isn't "Do you see anything that specifically prohibits the
government from doing this", its "Do you see anything that
specifically allows the government to do this".
|8.14.08 @ 6:51PM|#
And let's be fair to Griswold. The argument was not that the
3rd Amendment controlled, it was that if you look at the 9th's
promise of unenumerated rights, and then in trying to discern what
they are you notice that the 1st, the 5th, the 3rd, the 4th, etc.,
all seem to touch on the same abstract right of privacy (privacy of
thought, privacy of home, privacy of stuff), then you get a right
of privacy.
I am fair to Griswold. I'm a libertarian for cryin' out
loud. Privacy rights exist in "the specific guarantees in the Bill
of Rights [that] have penumbras formed by emanations from those
guarantees that help give them life and substance". It may be
crappy composition but he was right. And whether I consider myself
white, black or a Turk is a private matter and noe of the
governments goddam business. Just like whether I use a rubber or
smoke a little reefer now and then.
Understand?
|8.14.08 @ 7:19PM|#
RC if the people felt it was necessary to jump through whatever
hoops were necessary to make most of what it now does "enumerated"
they would (a la the 16th Amendment). Most of the modern state is a
direct result of the people asking for it to fix what they saw as
horrible problems.
J sub D
As noted, the've been asking a race question since 1790, so they
must find it useful for something!
Seriously though, you don't find it interesting for example that we
are reaching a minority majority status? Of that New Meixco is xx%
Hispanic and was xx% Hispanic ten or twenty years ago? I think the
information provided by the Census to be a genuine public good,
accessible to anyone interested. I imagine those not interested are
quite dull fucking people ("I don't care about what's happening out
there, now gimme my remote control!").
Oh yeah, remembering what site I'm on I should mention that the
private sector would not provide such accessible and comprehensive
information. Since they HAVE to count anyway, why not ask the extra
questions? Wtf?
|8.14.08 @ 7:39PM|#
Even a broke clock is right twice a day. The Census is one of those golden things the government does.
|8.14.08 @ 7:58PM|#
Mr. Nice Guy,
Unfortunately, statistics are not the mere intellectual amusement
for far too many social engineers that they are for you.
This was well known by the person most responsible for the miracle
that is Hong Kong, viz.:
Asked what is the key thing poor countries should do, Cowperthwaite once remarked: "They should abolish the Office of National Statistics." In Hong Kong, he refused to collect all but the most superficial statistics, believing that statistics were dangerous: they would led the state to to fiddle about remedying perceived ills, simultaneously hindering the ability of the market economy to work. This caused consternation in Whitehall: a delegation of civil servants were sent to Hong Kong to find out why employment statistics were not being collected; Cowperthwaite literally sent them home on the next plane back.
|8.14.08 @ 8:11PM|#
Seriously though, you don't find it interesting for example
that we are reaching a minority majority status?
WTF? Are there going to be more foreigners than Americans or
something?
I'm a apostate catholic atheist, I could give a shit if "white"
people pecome a plurality vice a majority. I've been a minority my
whole life.
|8.14.08 @ 8:56PM|#
J sub D
So like Colbert, you don't "see race?"
I'm interested in social phenomena. You should look into it (in
fact, you do, as evidenced by your participation here). Our
understanding of it is GREATLY influenced by government collected
stats.
MikeP
I'm well aware of the libertarian hard on for Hong Kong.
Hong Kong is a city, not a country. The NYC economy is much better
than most counties in NY state. To quote economist Adam Sandler
"whoopedy-doo!"
Antiglobalist|8.14.08 @ 11:12PM|#
Forgive me for that last message, folks. I'm just a pathetic
neo-Nazi troll/loser and my mommy didn't hold me enough as a child.
I'm also a hypocrite for being a Nazi and listening to metal, which
has its roots in rock n' roll (which used to be called nigger music
by my Klan buddies).
I think pluralism doesn't work because I've never heard of
Stitzerland or Singapore before.
I'm also still a virgin. Please pity me.
Paul|8.15.08 @ 12:00AM|#
So maybe you think it's an unwise use of constitutionally
granted authority for Congress to direct the Census in its current
fashion, but it ain't unconstitutional.
Enumeration.
e·nu·mer·ate (ĭ-nōō'mə-rāt', -nyōō'-) Pronunciation Key tr.v.
e·nu·mer·at·ed, e·nu·mer·at·ing, e·nu·mer·ates
To count off or name one by one
Not "statistical sampling". Oh hey, that reminds me. I wonder if
our left-leaning friends are going to shut the fuck up about
filling out all the little boxes about race and religion-- you
know, so the government can keep track of what persuasion you are,
not just how many you are-- since 9/11?
I'm wondering if the government couldn't do a little data-mining on
everyone who checks "muslim".
The Census is one of those golden things the government
does.
*smiles*
Despite their desperate-- I say 'desperate'-- attempts to fuck it
up for the 2000 census.
|8.15.08 @ 10:42AM|#
Minorities like blacks and Latinos have lagged in socioeconomic indicators because of institutional discrimination. Minorities like Asians had been excluded to even enter the US for a certain period because of discrimination in immigration policies specifically aimed at them, such as the Chinese Exclusion Act. Non-hispanic whites largely did not experience institutional or cultural discrimination. That is why that majority-minority marker is noteworthy. Having said that, I must say that the US has come a long way and have made great progress. So, I am dubious about the relevance of the majority-minority nation by the year 2042 or 2050.
|8.15.08 @ 12:07PM|#
I couldn't agree more. That headline was slathered all over the internet yesterday, with the obvious intention of riling 'whites', whoever they may be.
GILMORE|8.17.08 @ 10:32AM|#
Answers =
1. The oppressed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN5StQAr7n0&feature=related
2. The oppressors
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmK07gRcVo0
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