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Perfectly Sane Scientist Apprehended
Victor Deeb, a retired chemist in Marlboro,
Massachusetts, called the fire department because his second floor
AC unit was on fire. The next thing you know, he's barred from the
house he's lived in for 20 years for three days because of gear for
his hobby found in the basement. And no, his
hobby doesn't involve grow lamps. The Worcester Telegram
and Gazette reports:
[Deeb], who stored hundreds of chemicals in his house, was allowed to return home yesterday after authorities spent three days dismantling his basement laboratory.
None of the materials found at 81 Fremont St. posed a radiological or biological risk, according to the state Department of Environmental Protection. No mercury or poison was found. Some of the compounds are potentially explosive, but no more dangerous than typical household cleaning products.
Deeb has several patents on file and more pending, including something involving "aromatic alcohols" that is "usable in numerous elastomeric applications including interior and exterior vehicle parts, roofing, asphalt, and any other applications," and something else that has to do with grinding things and "elastomer slurry," not to mention a "method and apparatus for introducing colorant to resinous materials."
In other words: This is a legit, productive guy who wanted to keep working after retirement. He had nothing in his basement that posed a risk to himself or his neighbors—just a lot of jars and boxes of chemicals. They don't really know if there's even a rule against this: "I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere," is the best that Pamela A. Wilderman, Marlboro’s code enforcement officer, can come up with.
The most disheartening quote of all:
“He’s been very cooperative,” Ms. Wilderman said. “I won’t be citing him for anything right at this moment.”
Via Rimfax
Elemenope|8.13.08 @ 11:53AM|#
Am I a bad person for reading his name "Mr. Dweeb" at
first?
Back on topic, I learned way back in legal theory that Amerikan law
operates on the "Legality Principle", i.e. something can only be
proscribed if there is a specific law proscribing it. As opposed to
the "Analogy Principle" of many other nations, which allows
proscription of any activity analogous to a behavior already
proscribed by law, or the "Arbitrary Principle", which allows
proscription of any activity that the authorities don't care
for.
Fuck, my education is out of date.
NoStar|8.13.08 @ 11:57AM|#
Velcom to ze new improved Amerika: If it isn't specifically allowed, it is verbotten!
|8.13.08 @ 11:58AM|#
has Reason already forgotten the lawyer you posted that told us never to talk to the police, because "there are so many laws nobody knows what they all are." Especially my favorite, bringing a lobster into the country if it breaks the law of ANOTHER COUNTRY.
Nigel Watt|8.13.08 @ 12:00PM|#
Or to quote the Fark headline from last week, "Intelligence and curiosity are illegal in Massachusetts".
New World Dan|8.13.08 @ 12:01PM|#
There are a lot of questions to be answered, though. Was he
venting reaction fumes in a residential area? Proper storage and
disposal of chemicals? People are a lot more fearful of chemicals
today, in part because we do know more about them.
For reference, I was a chemistry major in college. I'm rather
appalled at my work habits and lack of safety back in those days.
I'm also a woodworker; a hobby that involves storing a variety of
solvents, dies, varnishes, and other toxic substances. My safety
and ventilation is improving, but still has a ways to go.
The Extispicator|8.13.08 @ 12:04PM|#
There are no innocent Americans, only pre-guilty. That is, people who have "crossed a line somewhere," although the government has not yet discovered how or determined what line. These people are, therefore, not being cited at this very moment, but will be as soon as Big Brother decides what you did wrong.
|8.13.08 @ 12:05PM|#
How do we know the guy wasn't making meth and selling it to
children?
Or PCP?
Or some "synthetic" drug that will get you hooked after one
puff?
Douglas Gray|8.13.08 @ 12:05PM|#
"I think Mr. Deeb may have crossed the line somewhere?"
I would make Pamela Wilderman's position in the City Government a
volunteer one, maybe filled by 14 yr olds from the local junior
high school, but then again, forgive me for insulting all the
intelligent junior high kids in this area.
|8.13.08 @ 12:11PM|#
new world dan,
no, they already answered those questions by implication. they
specifically said there were no chemicals that posed a direct
threat. And if he had been venting chemicals in the area, you can
bet your ass they would have said as much, and cited him for
it.
FormerMassResident|8.13.08 @ 12:19PM|#
"He's been very cooperative," Ms. Wilderman said. "I won't be
citing him for anything right at this moment."
Unfortunately, this attitude is prevalent in Massachusetts. It's
the kind of state where you have to call the town to get a "burn
permit" to have a weenie roast in your backyard.
|8.13.08 @ 12:22PM|#
I have a beef with our over-regulated society, anyway, but the arbitrariness and unbounded discretion of its enforcers is particularly galling. In fact, I'm completely begalled.
Abdul|8.13.08 @ 12:24PM|#
There was a similar, but even sillier, case in Arlington, VA. An
eccentric guy collects snakes. When a plumber saw it, he thought it
was illegal and called the cops. The snake collector refused to let
the cops in because he hadn't done anything wrong. Now the entire
neighborhood wants the snake-dude's hide because, you know, snakes
are scary. Haven't you seen Anaconda I or II?
here's one summary:
http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0508/520995.html
Salvius|8.13.08 @ 12:43PM|#
Kneel before me, or be reduced to an elastomer slurry!
They called me "mad" at Oxford. But I'll show them! I'll show them
all! AHHH-HAHAHAHAHA!!!!
|8.13.08 @ 12:46PM|#
So this is the, "If we don't understand it, destroy it."
principle in action. Makes perfect sense!
Regards,
TDL
Elemenope|8.13.08 @ 12:54PM|#
Epi -
Is today Monty Python Day, or something? This isn't the only thread
you've whipped it out on.
KenK|8.13.08 @ 12:54PM|#
"I think Mr. Deeb may have crossed the line somewhere?"
We have an official line drawer arriving shortly to draw a line
right behind where Mr. Deeb is standing now.
|8.13.08 @ 1:00PM|#
"I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere," is the best
that Pamela A. Wilderman, Marlboro's code enforcement officer, can
come up with.
Well that is certainly a good enough reason to confidcate
somebody's personal property. Bureaucratic leech.
Growing up, there was usually 10 - 20 pounds of gunpowerder in the
basement. What would Pammie Wilderman think about that?
Episiarch|8.13.08 @ 1:02PM|#
Every day is Monty Python Day. If you've enjoyed my Python quotes half as much as I have, then I've enjoyed them twice as much as you.
Elemenope|8.13.08 @ 1:06PM|#
I just couldn't handle it being silly walks day today. I'm tired, and don't want to deal with the bureaucracy.
|8.13.08 @ 1:09PM|#
we apologize for the people responsible for Episiarch's comments. they have been sacked.
|8.13.08 @ 1:10PM|#
The snake collector refused to let the cops in because he
hadn't done anything wrong.
And he didn't get SWATted and the snakes shot? Those Arlington cops
are real pikers.
|8.13.08 @ 1:10PM|#
In fact, I'm completely begalled.
I was begalled a few years ago. I still have a lot of gall, but
it's no longer being bladderized. Damn, I haven't had a proper
stool since.
I know, I know. TMI!
|8.13.08 @ 1:11PM|#
Oh, and I wonder if our intrepid experimenter will be billing the city for the repairs and restoration of his perfecly legal basement lab, that they destroyed.
Episiarch|8.13.08 @ 1:11PM|#
Come see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being repressed by TAO!
|8.13.08 @ 1:13PM|#
Begalled could also mean that I think I'm turning
Frenchified.
R C Dean,
Foolish man, this is a purely regulatory move, not a taking. Or it
can be, with a little creative thinking.
Episiarch|8.13.08 @ 1:15PM|#
Dinsdale!
Interviewer: I understand he also nailed your wife's head to a
coffee table. Isn't that right Mrs O' Tracey?
Mrs O' Tracey: Oh, no. No. No.
Stig: Yeah, well, he did do that. Yeah, yeah. He was a cruel man,
but fair.
Interviewer: Vince, after he nailed your head to the floor, did you
ever see him again?
Vince: Yeah...after that I used to go round his flat every Sunday
lunchtime to apologize and we'd shake hands and then he'd nail my
head to the floor.
Interviewer: Every Sunday?
Vince: Yeah but he was very reasonable about it. I mean one Sunday
when my parents were coming round for tea, I asked him if he'd mind
very much not nailing my head to the floor that week and he agreed
and just screwed my pelvis to a keg stand.
gorgonzola\'s foil|8.13.08 @ 1:15PM|#
So a fire occurs on a property, the fire department comes, and
after putting out the fire and in the process of investigating the
fire, the FD finds flammable/explosive materials that may or may
not be stored properly or in quantities great enough to at least
give a fire inspector the shits, and he does not clear the property
for resumed residence until the materials are further investigated
or removed, which takes 3 days. The DEP seems to have overreacted
and used the full kit (chemical, biological AND nuclear!), but
that's their budget. Nonetheless, I can't fault the FD's inital
reaction. This isn't a great poster story for private property
rights.
If the fire had spread from 2nd floor to basement, and the
chemicals actually exploded, and firefighters had been hurt or
died, would Mr Deeb be personally responsible for negligence at
minimum?
|8.13.08 @ 1:17PM|#
Given the reaction of the Boston police to the Lite-Brite caper
and the State Police to the MIT girl's electronic sweatshirt at
Logan Airport, Mr Deeb should consider himself lucky that he wasn't
gunned down by a SWAT team.
Make it in Massachusetts!*
(* unless it's an amateur chemistry or electronics project)
|8.13.08 @ 1:20PM|#
Deeb's co-operation is more understandable given that the official position of the code enforcement officer is not they don't really know if there's a rule against this as Mangu-Ward reported but that scientific research and development in a residential area is a violation of zoning laws.
|8.13.08 @ 1:26PM|#
gorgonzola's foil said: "...and the chemicals actually
exploded..."
Separated as they were in their own containers the explosive
potential was negligible. If he had some raw sodium and the jar
broke and water hit it, it would blaze up, not blow up for
instance. The Explosive potential is from mixing them into a
compoud with explosive properties. Only a few things can actually
explode instead of off-gas. Black gun powder is one. Nitro-glycerin
is another. The rest just generate a large amount of gas that can
blow a container from the over pressure. That's why a lot of stuff
is in cardboard containers - they go pop instead of boom.
Jimmy|8.13.08 @ 1:31PM|#
I work for one of the companies whose products were "discovered"
in this poor guy's basement. He had some completely non-hazardous
chemicals (thickeners) from my company.
This story has me interested because I'm a trained chemical
engineer, and dabbling inventor. I don't think the government
should be able to stop me from doing a little chemistry with
nonhazardous stuff on my own property. This guy is ucky he didn't
have his house invaded by a swat team.
Robert Goodman|8.13.08 @ 1:33PM|#
The whole bit is a manifest'n of the widespread belief that
there are such things as "chemicals", and that these are unlike the
everyday materials (whose composition we are ignorant of) we deal
with and are per se dangerous.
I too had a couple of patents issue from research I did with
"chemicals" at home.
|8.13.08 @ 1:34PM|#
If the fire had spread from 2nd floor to basement, and the
chemicals actually exploded, and firefighters had been hurt or
died, would Mr Deeb be personally responsible for negligence at
minimum?
No. Not any more than you would be in trouble for having a black
pipe full of flammable natural gas in it. How about the gasoline
cans in the garage? Hair spray? Spray paint? Ammunition?
Jimmy|8.13.08 @ 1:38PM|#
gorgonzola's foil said: "...and the chemicals actually
exploded..."
The guy was working with paint chemicals, mainly for water based
latexes (which don't explode.) Quite safe stuff. Ammonia was
probably the most dangerous chemical, hence "no more dangerous than
typical household cleaning products."
TallDave|8.13.08 @ 2:27PM|#
Argh, LEO is far too often like a guy who's only ever owned a hammer finding a screw and saying "Hey, this looks like a nail!" and proceeding to beat the crap out of it to no one's profit.
Dello|8.13.08 @ 2:35PM|#
I wonder how long before they come and take my arc welder. After all, it can create fire and is a shock hazard...
bubba|8.13.08 @ 2:36PM|#
Commerical chemistry labs are very highly regulated, and they
don't belong in residential neighborhoods.
Seriously.
It's not fair to the neighbors, or to the fire department.
The fact that this guy has patents says NOTHING about his safety
practices, and plenty about his willingness to do commerical grade
chemistry. Again, it doesn't belong in his house.
|8.13.08 @ 3:12PM|#
FOOLS! Cower before my resinous materials!
I just want to point out that Jeff P has a threadwinner here. I
LOLed.
Jimmy|8.13.08 @ 3:44PM|#
bubba - "commercial chemistry labs" - this is a meaningless
phrase. This guy was doing formulating, not reactive chemistry, and
he was using manifestly non-hazardous chemicals.
It should not be difficult to understand that mixing non-hazardous
materials in one's basement is not inherently dangerous, or "not
fair to the neighbors."
So many people have a sad fear - "chemicals" are bad and dangerous.
Believe it or not, professional chemists tend to have a good sense
for safety. Here is another surprise - chemicals are not uniformly
dangerous. Yet another surprise - being "very highly regulated" is
not always necessary, or good.
|8.13.08 @ 3:55PM|#
Bubba, would you have said the following, if the cops had gone
in and destroyed someone's remodeled kitchen?
Commerical
chemistry labskitchens are very highly regulated, and they don't belong in residential neighborhoods.
Seriously.
It's not fair to the neighbors, or to the fire department.
The fact that this guy haspatentswritten cookbooks says NOTHING about his safety practices, and plenty about his willingness to do commerical gradechemistryfood preparation. Again, it doesn't belong in his house.
I ask because the type of chemistry this guy was apparently doing
is identical to the type of chemistry one does when
baking. His patents are, effectively, for original recipes.
J.P.|8.13.08 @ 4:39PM|#
I "think" Ms. Wilderman shouldn't be enforcing code/laws if she can only "think" someone violated them. I generally like my enforcement folks to "know" what laws they are trying to enforce.
|8.13.08 @ 5:29PM|#
I "think" Ms. Wilderman shouldn't be enforcing code/laws if
she can only "think" someone violated them. I generally like my
enforcement folks to "know" what laws they are trying to
enforce.
Oh come on, be reasonable!
I love the headline. "Mad" / "Perfectly sane" - HA
|8.13.08 @ 5:35PM|#
Bubba,
Commerical chemistry labs
What is the difference between "commercial chemistry labs" and a
hobby using chemicals?
How do you know his experiments were the former and not the
latter?
Cactus|8.14.08 @ 6:56AM|#
Ah the police state. Where they don't even need a law to
confiscate your property.
God forsaken fascist fucks.
|8.14.08 @ 3:51PM|#
If MA can't tell the difference between a bomb and an LED sign, why should we think they know the difference in chemicals?
|8.14.08 @ 3:54PM|#
I bet these idiots would send the hasmat team if someone reported a neighbor spraying Dihydrogen Monoxide on his lawn.
Ben1|8.15.08 @ 4:23AM|#
My friends, I have here a petition against dihydrogen monoxide.
It is drowning the planet. It is literally precipitating out of the
sky, where it is collecting in such quantities as to actually block
out the sun in some areas. Friction based electron detachments
regularly accrue, creating ions where previously there were none,
and eventually, the earth is struck with deadly electrical bolts
that turn the air to a violent plasma and transmit shock waves for
miles. In additional, rogue streams of dihydrogen monoxide often
carry off small children and animals. You can see that dihydrogen
monoxide is the worst threat we have ever faced. Please sign, have
your neighbors and friends sign, and pray for our success in
banning this vile and dangerous chemical. No one is safe from this
threat, so remember our battle cry: If we don't stop it, no one
will!
by:___________________
date:_________________
|8.15.08 @ 10:57AM|#
I am the daughter of Victor Deeb and what they did and took from my father is not only unfair but devastating to an old man whose life for the last 40 years has been chemistry. They not only took all of his chemicals (which he used in his research for non-toxic sealants for baby food jars) but 20 years of notes that were valuable only to him. Now his research notes have magically disappeared into thin air. Can someone tell me where the justice is in that?
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