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It's Bailout Time
The L.A. Times reports:
The Bush administration said it would ask Congress to authorize the Treasury Department to lend Fannie and Freddie more money than current limits permit and buy stock in the two companies.
Also Sunday, the Federal Reserve agreed to permit the companies to borrow directly from the central bank, as investment firms were allowed to do after the near-collapse of Bear Stearns Cos. in March. The money would tide Fannie and Freddie over while the administration and Congress rush the emergency measures through....
The plan is certain to be highly controversial, with critics saying it bails out shareholders of companies that took excessive risks during the housing boom in recent years.
Critics of government intervention say such rescues encourage irresponsible investing -- thus bringing about financial-market bubbles -- because investors believe the government will bail them out at taxpayer expense.
Well, yes. Meanwhile, Karen De Coster makes a pertinent point:
In listening to the constant chatter about the Fannie-Freddie crisis, one thing struck me as funny -- Bloomberg analysts appeared to be perplexed that both companies are ranked Aaa by the credit-rating oligopoly, yet derivatives traders were trading both at levels that implied a credit rating at least five levels lower.
Credit ratings by the government-granted oligopolists are not the market; trading actions based on actual knowledge and/or informed interpretations of known events are the market. The act of trading credit-default swaps (tied to debt sold by Fannie and Freddie) does not hinge on implied promises on the part of the government. Sure, implied government backing has caused the security prices to be skewed for Fannie and Freddie. But what's happening here is that the market participants, in spite of an implicit government guarantee, are coming to their senses and realizing the insolvency...of both Fannie and Freddie.
JMR|7.14.08 @ 9:46AM|#
Can someone please provide me with an honest sounding (honest is
too much to ask) explanation for:
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2008/02/17/business/20080217_SWAP_2_GRAPHIC.html
this graph? Thanks.
JMR
JMR|7.14.08 @ 10:02AM|#
The problem with that NYT graph is that it's "old," and a newer
bloomburg story (can't dig it up at the moment, but trust me) says
the actual number is more like $60(!) Trillion, instead. There is
no coverage on TV media of this despite a full court press from me
(apparently, e-gold & the Ron Paul copper dollar the only
financial problems worthy of enforcement instead of taxpayer
subsidy). It's so fiscally stupid it drives me NUTS, and there's NO
WAY we'll see ANY mention of it on Cavuto until shit hits fan
completely following the election. Until the election, it's "give
the addict his financial heroin" no matter how socialist it looks.
But hard money libertarians like me are "crazy," so we can't
possibly be worth listening-to, much less trusted with
leadership.
JMR
|7.14.08 @ 10:04AM|#
When can we expect a Senate investigation of the InBev-Anheuser
deal, on National Security grounds?
Jesus- what if they start printing the labels in Portugese?
robc|7.14.08 @ 10:08AM|#
P Brooks,
Im hoping the InBev deal goes thru so I can make fun of Bud
drinkers for drinking "sissy Belgian beer".
Sam Adams will be the largest American brewer after that deal.
Pabst will be the largest American beer company, but they are
contract brewed, so arent a brewer.
robc|7.14.08 @ 10:09AM|#
Did Portugal invade Belgium? Did I miss the war? Or was it like a soccer bet during Euro 08 or something?
JMR|7.14.08 @ 10:10AM|#
Didn't find the Bloomburg one, but here's a story
http://everythingwarrenbuffett.blogspot.com/2008/05/reutersbuffett-backs-fed-over-bear.html
that also mentions $60 Trillion instead of "just" $45 Trillion or
so (but what's $15 Trillion among friendly taxpayers??). For some
"how deep is this shit, anyway?" context:
That's over 4x the 2007 est. US GDP and just under (90%) the ENTIRE
PLANET'S flappin' GDP fer Chrissakes.
US GDP: $13.8 trillion
World GDP: $65.6 trillion
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2001rank.html
Sigh.
JMR
|7.14.08 @ 10:14AM|#
Sam Adams will be the largest American brewer after that
deal.
No kidding? That's just weird.
High-quality craft-work performed by an American company, while its
lower quality, mass-produced, cheapter competitors are from Old
Europe.
Wait a sec, does that make US the "Chocolate-makers?"
Nigel Watt|7.14.08 @ 10:14AM|#
Wait, since when is anything in our monetary, controlled by the Federal Reserve, "unregulated"? And is the NYT trying to say "It's big, so regulate it!"?
Ralphie|7.14.08 @ 10:20AM|#
Dear Santa:
I want a Red Ryder carbine-action 200-shot range model BB gun for
Christmas.
|7.14.08 @ 10:21AM|#
"Belgian-Braqzilian" brewer, InBev...
2004 when the Belgian company Interbrew and the Brazilian
company AmBev merged, creating the world's largest
brewer.
[from the wiki]
JMR|7.14.08 @ 10:21AM|#
Yes, Nigel, the NYT's headline is typically NYT-left-biased, and
I neglected to point it out, so thanks. How I saved the graph URL
in my bookmarks was under the single word, "criminality." With a
government this-big, NOTHING and NOBODY is ever anything like
"unregulated."
JMR
robc|7.14.08 @ 10:24AM|#
joe,
High-quality craft-work performed by an American company, while
its lower quality, mass-produced, cheapter competitors are from Old
Europe.
Well, while Im not a big fan of Sam Adams, I dont disagree with the
assessment. However, Yuengling will be #2 - Im not willing to call
them High-quality craft-work. They just never got as big as
Bud/Miller/Coors did (probably do to remaining private/family
owned).
Wait a sec, does that make US the
"Chocolate-makers?"
I have no problem with that. For a while now, some of the best beer
in the world has been made in the US. It was just starting to get
noticed overseas. Maybe this will remove the "bad US beer" bias
from the snooty Europeans.
robc|7.14.08 @ 10:26AM|#
P Brooks,
Belgian-Brazilian
Ah, that explains the portuguese comment. InBev is headquartered in
Belgium though. However, although SABMiller is headquartered in
London, I always refer to them as a South African company. I guess
to be consistent, I should refer to them as British. Ah, screw
consistency, its funnier my way.
|7.14.08 @ 10:28AM|#
What is the point of having all those printing presses, if you
can't print money at will?
"I can't be broke- I still have checks left."
|7.14.08 @ 10:30AM|#
JMR,
What does that 45/60 Trillion dollar figure actually represent? It
can't represent the price paid for the swaps, since there simply
isn't that much money. Is it simply a measure of the risk insured
by such swaps? And if so, how it is at all valid to compare that to
other marketplaces?
robc|7.14.08 @ 10:34AM|#
MP,
I think its the value of the swaps on the open market, based on
last trading prices of them. Obviously, they couldnt all be sold at
that price. Same holds for the stock market, for that matter.
I dont quite get JMR's ramblings over them. Its obviously a bad
sign that they have increased so much in value the last few years
(they were undervalued when issued, the risk measurement was WAY
off).
|7.14.08 @ 10:34AM|#
Oh boy! We can look forward to a socialized home mortgage market. What could possibly go wrong?
|7.14.08 @ 10:36AM|#
You market worshipers are hilarious!
As long as it's the market doing it I guess it's ok then! You
support bailouts of large corporations but the second it comes time
to bail out the normal tax payer you cry foul.
Do you want our economy to go into a worse depression than we've
ever had? Meanwhile people are losing their homes, losing their
jobs, and trying to make ends meet and all you want to do is worry
about investors!
JMR|7.14.08 @ 10:37AM|#
My "ramblings" are about something that (like manipulating the
price of precious metals) is distorting markets in order to
disguise massive hyperinflation, which WILL be timed to hit the fan
after the election, after which I'll say "I told you so" and other
people will continue to accuse me of "rambling." I've got
experience with this shit...
JMR
robc|7.14.08 @ 10:37AM|#
We can look forward to a socialized home mortgage
market.
BTW, for those who follow it, whats the talk re: the mortgage
market on the raging lefty blogs? From what little I have seen in
other places, leftists seem to oppose the bailouts as pro-business.
So, what are they suggesting?
JMR|7.14.08 @ 10:38AM|#
Hey Democrat, who's supporting ANY sort of a bailout on the
truly-libertarian side? Sure as shit ain't me!!
JMR
|7.14.08 @ 10:39AM|#
FYI - Here's the source (pdf) of the $60T figure. It's $62T, actually. What's $2T between friends?
|7.14.08 @ 10:40AM|#
Hey Democrat, who's supporting ANY sort of a bailout on the
truly-libertarian side? Sure as shit ain't me!!
The Moose is Loose! Don't be fooled again.
robc|7.14.08 @ 10:40AM|#
JMR,
The "credit default insurance market" isnt a market distorting
tool. Its a market measuring derivative. This is what I dont get.
Yeah, its price points out a big problem, but that doesnt seem to
have anything to do with your posts.
Im not sure what you are trying to say.
|7.14.08 @ 10:42AM|#
Well, if these are not sure signs of recession, I do not know
what is!
JT
www.Ultimate-Anonymity.com
|7.14.08 @ 10:43AM|#
Jesse: Linking to Karen de Coster? Don't you know she's one of those... those... ROCKWELL types? Prepare for the onslaught of ire once they see that you have dared to mention them on your site. I can hear Justin Raimondo's keyboard overheating already...
|7.14.08 @ 10:44AM|#
You support bailouts of large corporations but the second it
comes time to bail out the normal tax payer you cry
foul.
"Egad! Unmasked, I am."
*Twirls moustache, flicks speck of dirt from spats with gold tipped
rhinoceros-penis walking stick.*
Fluffy|7.14.08 @ 10:45AM|#
Although I'm opposed to the bailout, I think a couple of points
need to be made to cut down the hysteria a little:
The agencies already had a credit line with the Treasury Department
for ~2 billion. They've never tapped that line. Basically the
portion of the bailout plan that increases the size of that line is
like your credit card company raising your limit on a card you've
never used.
I think the events of the last couple of weeks have been a "raid"
on the agencies. Many of the major money center banks have never
liked the existence of the agencies, because they commoditized the
mortgage business and brought margins steadily down on the
conforming side of the business. So they engineered a panic in the
stock to discredit the agencies, and also to attempt to make
impossible some pretty run of the mill recapitalizations that were
coming up. If they can imperil the ability of the agencies to raise
capital, they can destroy them.
The current Treasury actions - raising the limit on the untapped
Treasury lines of credit, and telegraphing that they'll invest in
the agencies if necessary - seem less like a bailout and more like
a market intervention to smack around the raiders. If the raiders
know that they can't dry up the agencies' access to capital, they
can't win. But if the raiders abandon their raid, the Treasury
department will probably never actually have to advance any funds
on the updated lines or invest any funds directly. It just looks
more like a PsyOp than an actual bailout.
Nigel Watt|7.14.08 @ 10:51AM|#
And here I was hoping that nobody would bring up that DeCoster posts on LewRockwell. I read both LRC and Reason, and I'm sure plenty of other people do too.
JMR|7.14.08 @ 10:53AM|#
I think its price points out a big problem, so that's what I'm
trying to say, and I'm not sure what you don't understand. Markets
are being distorted, and that means we can no longer credibly argue
that they're anything like "free." Inflation IS being masked by
this distortion so that its worst effects can be delayed until
after the next election, when the REAL problems will start. And
when I'll be saying "I told you so." Oops. Rambling "I told you
so."
JMR
T|7.14.08 @ 10:55AM|#
My biggest problem with bailing out both agencies is that, as
near as I can tell, both agencies have been run by incompetent,
dishonest morons. The handwriting has been on the wall for a while
now that things were amiss, but everyone involved tried to cover it
up and gloss over the problems rather than address them. Fuck 'em.
They can go pound sand like everybody else who can't run a
business. This also applies to Bear Stearns, all the airlines,
farmers, the steel industry, automakers and everybody else. Adapt
to the market or die.
Also, putting off the inevitable correction only makes it that much
worse when it actually happens.
|7.14.08 @ 10:58AM|#
I read them both every day and enjoy them both differently. I'm just trying (and apparently failing) to humorously address the rancor which those at LRC often hurl at cato and reason (especially Karen de Coster and Justin Raimondo). There is in fact even today a blog post at LRC dressing down (t)reason for pooh-poohing the gas tax holiday proposal.
|7.14.08 @ 10:59AM|#
How many average American citizens do you guys think have even a rudimentary understanding of what is happening here?
kinnath|7.14.08 @ 11:01AM|#
Adapt to the market or die.
Forest fires are necessary to the health of the forest. When
mankind spends 70 or 80 years suppressing them then says "hands
off" . . . Well then you see a little hell on earth.
robc|7.14.08 @ 11:01AM|#
JMR,
WTF? I told YOU so 20 years ago. Who fucking cares that you can see
the obvious?
You need to write more clearly. Your ramblings sounded like you had
an issue with the credit swaps.
EVERYONE reading this is well aware of the Fed market manipulating
ways. I thought you were trying to give us some new info or
something. Or trying to get some, via your first post.
|7.14.08 @ 11:01AM|#
Guys, if you check Energized Democrat's email address you'll
figure out his post was sarcasm.
Of course it was hard to identify as such since it's statements are
the kind that seem to be supported by a majority od the voting
public.
robc|7.14.08 @ 11:03AM|#
Isaac,
Argh. Damn you Reinmoose. What happened to Reinmoose as...Energized
Democrat?
|7.14.08 @ 11:04AM|#
JMR said:
Markets are being distorted, and that means we can no longer credibly argue that they're anything like "free."
The problem I'm having with your statements is that you're pointing
to the price level of the credit derivatives market and saying that
it's obviously distorted simply due to the price level. Personally,
I need a more detailed analysis before I would be ready to buy into
that assertion. Given the nature of Credit Default Swaps, which are
relatively complex instruments, an argument which simply points to
the price level of these swaps is too simplistic.
|7.14.08 @ 11:07AM|#
Jim Rogers doesn't seem too impressed.
Rogers said he had not covered his so-called short positions in Fannie Mae and would increase his bet if it were to rally. Short sellers borrow stock and then sell it in an effort to profit by repurchasing the securities later at a lower price and returning them to the holder.
The U.S. economy is in a recession, possibly the worst since World War II, Rogers said.
``They're ruining what has been one of the greatest economies in the world,'' Rogers said. Bernanke and Paulson ``are bailing out their friends on Wall Street but there are 300 million Americans that are going to have to pay for this.''
JMR|7.14.08 @ 11:09AM|#
Ok, like I said, I have no honest (or honest sounding)
explanations. I think it's safe to assume manipulation. One thing
I've found is that those who think I'm unclear on the internet tend
to be unclear themselves. Today's obviously no exception. Anyway,
if you think there's an honest explanation for the size/growth of
that "market," please enlighten me and prevent me from "rambling"
further. I'll be forever in your debt.
JMR
JMR|7.14.08 @ 11:15AM|#
No, you didn't "tell me so" 20 years ago, unless you can provide
proof. Accept it. I am now warning that in the future, I'm likely
to be saying (excuse me, "rambling") I told you so. Best policy is
to deal with it.
JMR
robc|7.14.08 @ 11:16AM|#
JMR,
I explained it above. The swaps were originally underpriced, due to
a mismeasurement of risk. They have shot up in price as
a: conditions worsened
b: the real risk level was determined
I have no idea if they are currently priced properly. They may be
too low in value, for all I know. I dont think there is any overt
manipulation going on, other than that manipulation that led to the
banking issues in the first place (and there was plenty of
that).
|7.14.08 @ 11:16AM|#
robc
Trouble was that as sarcasm or satire it didn't quite work.
Good satire in a H&R thread needs the over-the-top hysteria of
a Juanita. Reinmoose's post could have been copied verbatim from
any one of a dozen mainline Democrat sources.
It fooled me to. MP showed that his sarcasmometer was working at
10:40am. Mine isn't set as low as his apparently.
|7.14.08 @ 11:17AM|#
In other headline-scanning news: the fucking
Peso is at or near a five year high.
But everything's okay; we've got it all under control.
|7.14.08 @ 11:21AM|#
I go for accuracy with just a hint of hysteria (which,
sometimes, represents an even more accurate sentiment).
If you only knew some of the company I keep, you'd understand why
I'm so good at this
robc|7.14.08 @ 11:21AM|#
Here is a bit from an article on John Paulson
One Wall Street specialty during the boom was repackaging
mortgage securities into instruments called collateralized debt
obligations, or CDOs, then selling slices of these with varying
levels of risk.
For buyers of the slices who wanted to insure against the debt
going bad, Wall Street offered another instrument, called
credit-default swaps.
Naturally, the riskier the debt that such a swap "insured," the
more the swap would cost. And this price would go up if default
risk appeared to be increasing. This meant an investor of a bearish
bent could buy the swaps as a way to bet on bad news
happening.
During the boom, however, many were so blind to housing
risk that this "default insurance" was priced very
cheaply. Analyzing reams of data late at night in his
office, Mr. Paulson became convinced investors were far
underestimating the risk in the mortgage market. In betting on it
to crumble, "I've never been involved in a trade that had such
unlimited upside with a very limited downside," he says.
robc|7.14.08 @ 11:24AM|#
Another bit:
One concern was that even if Mr. Paulson bet right, he would
find it hard to cash out his bets because many were in markets with
limited trading. This hasn't been a problem, however, thanks to the
wrong bet of some big banks and Wall Street firms. To hedge their
holdings of mortgage securities, they've scrambled to buy debt
protection, which sometimes means buying what Mr. Paulson already
held.
|7.14.08 @ 11:37AM|#
How many average American citizens do you guys think have
even a rudimentary understanding of what is happening
here?
< 1 million.
|7.14.08 @ 11:44AM|#
How many average American citizens do you guys think have
even a rudimentary understanding of what is happening
here?
Economists don't agree on everything, and you don't have a monopoly
on economic understanding. I think Americans understand enough to
know that if the government doesn't do something here to fix the
mistakes of the free market, they're all screwed. If you were
really concerned about the market, you would support making
reasonable safeguards against corporations, speculators, and
investors screwing up our economy. There are smart things that we
can do to fix market failures that will make sure these things
never happen again. You just want free reign by the rich, which is
alright if you are Ok with slavery.
Nigel Watt|7.14.08 @ 11:46AM|#
Economists don't agree on everything, and you don't have a monopoly on economic understanding. I think Americans understand enough to know that if the government doesn't do something here to fix the mistakes of the free market, they're all screwed. If you were really concerned about the market, you would support making reasonable safeguards against corporations, speculators, and investors screwing up our economy. There are smart things that we can do to fix market failures that will make sure these things never happen again. You just want free reign by the rich, which is alright if you are Ok with slavery.
Dude, I go to a liberal Northeastern university nine months out of the year. Do you really have to post that drivel when I'm working in Houston?
Nigel Watt|7.14.08 @ 11:48AM|#
Also, I'm amused at how the markets' reaction to this has been "Meh". They know it won't do a thing.
|7.14.08 @ 11:50AM|#
Dude, I go to a liberal Northeastern university nine months
out of the year. Do you really have to post that drivel when I'm
working in Houston?
Sorry, Bro. I'm just trying to fill in for those who aren't in
attendence today.
robc|7.14.08 @ 11:53AM|#
I go to a liberal Northeastern university nine months out of
the year.
I went to an engineering school in the south.
Pro: no* leftists
Con: no* chicks
*they both existed, just not in numbers worth mentioning
|7.14.08 @ 12:05PM|#
If you were really concerned about the market, you would
support making reasonable safeguards against corporations,
speculators, and investors screwing up our economy.
AHA! That's why Obama changed his mind and voted for the new FISA.
So the SEC can wiretap the rumor-mongers on the floor of the
exchanges.
Excellent!
zoltan|7.14.08 @ 12:26PM|#
Dude, I go to a liberal Northeastern university nine months
out of the year. Do you really have to post that drivel when I'm
working in Houston?
Yuck, I don't know which is worse. But I do live in Austin, so it's
like both of those at the same time.*
*Without the high degree of education many Northeastern colleges
have to offer...scoff.
Neu Mejican|7.14.08 @ 12:37PM|#
How many average American citizens do you guys think have
even a rudimentary understanding of what is happening here?
< 1 million.
I think, btw, that if you convert that to a percentage you can
figure out what percentage of H&R posters have the same
understanding.
I think the more important question is this...
How many of the people working to solve this problem have a
detailed enough understanding of the complexities to propose an
effective solution?
My guess: 0
|7.14.08 @ 12:42PM|#
I'll be honest here. I'd have to hit the books pretty hard to have an educated opinion on this.
robc|7.14.08 @ 12:53PM|#
How many of the people working to solve this problem have a
detailed enough understanding of the complexities to propose an
effective solution?
My guess: 0
I think you are off by (at least) 1. I have an effective solution,
let the problem take care of itself. No bailouts, end government
support of Fannie/Freddie. Blow up the federal reserve
buildings.
Problem solved.
|7.14.08 @ 1:00PM|#
Did you ever notice how dogs can't understand what you're
actually saying, but can recognize different people's voices?
So, when you speak to a dog, it will react exactly the same way,
regardless of what you are actually saying, because it only
recognizes the voice, and responds to what its little doggy brain
has learned about the speaker.
That's because dogs, while fiercely loyal to whichever pack they
adopt, just don't have much brain volume up agove eye level.
Hi, Reinmoose.
Nigel Watt|7.14.08 @ 1:02PM|#
Did you ever notice how dogs can't understand what you're actually saying, but can recognize different people's voices?
No. If I say "Want to go for a walk?" he will run towards the closet where his leash is kept. If I say "Want to go for a ride?" he will run towards the garage.
|7.14.08 @ 1:05PM|#
Hi joe! *waves*
Although it's a little disappointing to see that you've stopped
ignoring me.
I wasn't necessarily referring to you in my 11:50 comment, but if
the shoe fits...
|7.14.08 @ 1:07PM|#
Libertarians need to vigorously oppose any further bailout of
the mortgage industry, specifically any bailout of Fannie May or
Freddie Mac. Bailouts are a moral hazard of the most dangerous
kind, not only to the financial industry, but to the country. They
set a horrible moral example for our young people and exposes
America to charges of hypocrisy as a capitalist nation where all
men are created equal. That equality must include the equality to
fail, for wealthy bankers just as for everyone else. Admittedly it
will be hard times for a while, but these institutions, and the
people responsible for them, must be allowed to fail and to be held
accountable for their mistakes. In the end, it will make the nation
stronger, and that strengthening is something we desperately need
at this moment in our country's history.
You can easily contact Congress to register your oppositions to
these bailouts by visiting their home pages on the Internet or by
dialing the U.S. Capitol switchboard. To locate and e-mail your
Representative, simply enter your zip code in the "Find Your
Representative" form at the top of the House of Representative's
website at http://www.house.gov or dial them at (202) 224-3121. To
contact your Senators, simply select your state from the "Find Your
Senators" menu at the top of the Senate's website at
http://www.senate.gov or dial them at (202) 224-3121. Letters do
not need to be long or even well written. A simple statement of
support or objection is sufficient. Please make your position
known.
-----
Letter to the Editor Links...
letters@mercurynews.com -- San Jose
letters@sfchronicle.com -- San Francisco
letters@latimes.com -- Los Angeles
letters@venturacountystar.com -- Los Angeles
letters@starbulletin.com -- Honolulu
letters@honoluluadvertiser.com -- Honolulu
letters@news-gazette.com -- Champaign
talktous@rockymountainnews.com -- Denver
openforum@denverpost.com -- Denver
|7.14.08 @ 1:48PM|#
You're right, Nigel. Even dogs demonstrate more intelligence than that in certain circumstances.
|7.14.08 @ 1:56PM|#
I think JMR's graph is showing the liability held under
insurance.
ie 45 trillion $ of the worlds economy is insured.
Would JMR feel more comfortable if it weren't insured?
Steve|7.14.08 @ 1:56PM|#
I'm not one of those "< 1 million", but I do know what Joe
says about dogs is more or less incorrect.
Dogs *can* understand what you say, when its something they've been
trained to understand. Their ability to keep track of language
makes it so they can't understand much more than single syllable
commands, but once you teach a dog "sit",etc. they will respond to
that command from anyone they see as part of their "pack". For
instance, all my housemates can give most of our dogs commands and
be listened to, and a few of my friends whom our dog spends much
time with are able to as well.
Of course, if you don't train the dog then all the dog has to go by
is what it can infer from the persons tone of voice and their
physical mannerisms (facial expression and body language).
But we digress... I knew I should have taken more Econ courses
while at a "respected Northeastern engineering school"....
|7.14.08 @ 2:07PM|#
Did any one else notice that on JMR's graph the value of the US stock market doubled from 2003-2008?
|7.14.08 @ 2:10PM|#
JsD,
A more generous number than I would have thrown out, but you're
probably correct.
Neu,
Yeah, probably, and it fucking sucks.
JMR|7.14.08 @ 3:07PM|#
I guess I should have felt UNcomfortable before this new form of
insurance was invented in the late '90s? Again, no honest sounding
-- much less honest -- explanation has emerged despite all the
griping.
JMR
JMR|7.14.08 @ 3:09PM|#
Also, I presume the NYT's graph does not take inflation into
account. Lots of dollars out there...
JMR
|7.14.08 @ 3:10PM|#
Did any one else notice that on JMR's graph the value of the
US stock market doubled from 2003-2008?
Or it stayed roughly the same, as the value of the US Dollar
halved.
I imagine (assuming the graph is correct in the first place) that
the real situation is somewhere between those two extremes.
T|7.14.08 @ 3:10PM|#
Their ability to keep track of language makes it so they
can't understand much more than single syllable
commands,
Much like politicians. Tax! Spend! Regulate! Yea! Nay! Abstain!
Good politician! Here's a nice reelection for the boy.
|7.14.08 @ 3:12PM|#
I think, btw, that if you convert that to a percentage you can figure out what percentage of H&R posters have the same understanding.
I think the more important question is this...
How many of the people working to solve this problem have a detailed enough understanding of the complexities to propose an effective solution?
Assume, for a moment, you are in a casino, betting somebody else's
money.
Would you bet as conservatively as with your own?
robc|7.14.08 @ 3:16PM|#
JMR,
Again, no honest sounding -- much less honest -- explanation
has emerged despite all the griping.
Ive explained it like three times, including quotes from another
source. Whats so hard to understand?
I really dont understand what is so hard. I imagine free market New
Orleans levee break insurance would have been damn expensive in the
middle of Katrina too.
Dagny T.|7.14.08 @ 3:28PM|#
You market worshipers are hilarious!
As long as it's the market doing it I guess it's ok then! You
support bailouts of large corporations but the second it comes time
to bail out the normal tax payer you cry foul.
Do you want our economy to go into a worse depression than we've
ever had? Meanwhile people are losing their homes, losing their
jobs, and trying to make ends meet and all you want to do is worry
about investors!
It's the lack of all-out hysteria in this that makes it
particularly terrifying. These are the kinds of opinions that
aren't only tolerated, but regarded as measured and reasonable.
Well-played, Reinmoose.
(However, tossing in a "think-of-teh-children" bromide never
hurts.)
Dagny T.|7.14.08 @ 3:31PM|#
No bailouts, end government support of Fannie/Freddie. Blow
up the federal reserve buildings.
Problem solved.
robc,
But if politicians and bureaucrats didn't meddle and micromanage,
what would they do all day? Don't you care about job security? Or
would you rather see someone in Bangladesh steal those jobs
instead?!?
|7.14.08 @ 3:50PM|#
We're heading to the greatest financial calamity since the 1930s, precisely because of the deregulatory dogma you people here cling to religiously, despite ample evidence that it produces no good for anybody. If the government didn't bail out Fannie and Freddie the entire world economy would collapse. "Oh well, that's just the market," I hear you thinking. So what possible reason does anyone have to believe in your hokum, since it does nobody any good and brings civilization to near collapse when applied as it has in the US since Ronnie Reagan hoodwinked the whole country into thinking he was doing them good by helping add to the profits of corporations (which are the biggest beneficiaries of socialism around). The last 20 years prove, if nothing else, that regulation is necessary and prudent. The more the better, I say. All regulation means is the little guy gets a fair shot in a world run by corporations. Now we've run out the grand Reagan/Bush free market experiment, and corporations are tanking all around us, not a damn thing is being done to clean the world of CO2 and nobody is happy. Your philosophy is dangerous and has been proven wrong. "Blow up the federal buildings." Right. You're all anarchists. I presume none of you use tax-funded services either. It's clear you want us all living in self-built cabins feeding on local rodentia. Do it if that's what you want, but I prefer a world in which the greater good is actively sought rather than passively ignored merely for the sake of a long-discredited economic philosophy.
robc|7.14.08 @ 3:57PM|#
Reinmoose,
Trying to fool us with a changed email? Okay, if not the moose, who
is suckpuppeting Tony? I might buy that but its overplayed. Too
much in one post.
|7.14.08 @ 4:03PM|#
Again, no honest sounding -- much less honest -- explanation
has emerged despite all the griping.
huh?
OK, does this sound honest?
We are all DOOMED!!!
Anyway you have your explanation so instead of calling everyone who
does write it for you dishonest why don't you tell us what this all
means.
Dagny T.|7.14.08 @ 4:19PM|#
...the greater good is actively sought...
Drink?
robc,
Nauseatingly, I fear Tony could be for real. At least in his own
mind.
However, if someones IS faux-trolling, "...feeding on local
rodentia" was an especially nice touch.
|7.14.08 @ 6:24PM|#
"Tony" cannot be real, there is not a person on Earth, beyond an angry teenager who discovered some old issues of MOTHER JONES (and I think they're not in the REASON demo), who would use such hysterically funny tropes except as a joke, or perhaps some type of ironic "text art" piece. I vote for the art piece theory..."the grand Reagan/Bush free market experiment"...haahaha, "Tony", love your work babe.
|7.14.08 @ 6:26PM|#
All regulation means is the little guy gets a fair shot in a
world run by corporations.
Now, that is funny.
A perspective..|7.15.08 @ 4:11AM|#
on the graph that JMR provided, and some of the follow-ups
On a craps table you can have people playing both the pass and
don't pass line. Say you have about the same number of people
playing on both sides, and the point hasn't hit for a while. You
will have a lot of money accumulated around the table. So, when the
point hits (or the shooter craps out), half the players win, half
lose - who is who depends on what was rolled - but the net payout
is actually a much smaller amount than the money on the table. (and
to stress again, the table needs to be more or less evenly
divided)
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