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Are We a "Nation of Whiners"?
Back in the olden days, when GOP presidential candidate John McCain admitted he knew nada about economics, he brought in failed presidential candidate and former Sen. Phil Gramm (R-Texas) to burnish his cred. Gramm's main contribution to date? Either fearlessly telling the truth or being a headline-grabbing, poll-killing idjit. You decide:
McCain was already running into a stiff headwind because of an ailing economy, and his task only became tougher after former senator Phil Gramm...suggested that the United States has "become a nation of whiners."
Gramm, who has helped shape McCain's presidential campaign and is a close friend of the candidate, expressed no regret on Thursday for the comments he made in an interview with the Washington Times, saying: "I'm not going to retract any of it. Every word I said was true."
McCain's official response?
Gramm "does not speak for me. I speak for me. I strongly disagree," McCain said during a press availability here, which took place at the same time Gramm was wrapping up a discussion with the Wall Street Journal editorial board about the candidate's economic program.
"The person here in Michigan who just lost his job isn't suffering from a mental recession," McCain added. Asked whether Gramm would play a significant role in shaping economic policy in a McCain administration, the senator joked: "I think Senator Gramm would be in serious consideration for ambassador to Belarus, although I'm not sure the citizens of Minsk would welcome that."...
For the first time since August 2002, the Labor Department said, every metropolitan area registered unemployment rate increases over the previous year, with Detroit-Livonia-Dearborn leading the way with a 2.1-percentage-point leap. The region lost 47,400 payroll jobs, nearly double the next highest job-loss total, in the Los Angeles-Long Beach area.
I almost think McCain should lose for the Belarus joke alone.
What say you, Hit & Run readers? Are we a nation of whiners? Or a nation of winners?
John McCain's eight greatest gag lines.
Bonus: In a 1978 reason article, Phil Gramm, then an economics professor at Texas A&M wrote:
"We might rely on collectivism to produce goods that we don't really need and goods we have a lot of substitutes for; but those things that we must have—that we cannot live without, at least in the manner in which we choose to live—those things have got to be reserved for private production, not government production."
Click here to see exactly what changed Gramm's mind in 1997. The answer may surprise you.
Episiarch|7.11.08 @ 8:57AM|#
"Since I started studying the fire ants issue, I see them
everywhere. I had a dream the other night they were conspiring to
kill me," Gramm told the Associated Press.
This is pleasantly surreal. It reminds me of that dream where you
see yourself standing in sort of sun-god robes on a pyramid with a
thousand naked women screaming and throwing little pickles at
you.
Why am I the only person that has that dream?
|7.11.08 @ 9:02AM|#
you know, we never hear about the menace of killer bees and fire ants anymore. I guess we've reached some sort of armistice with these creatures, because surely we haven't rolled them back from whence they came. I'd be curious to find out how prolific they've become or whether nature has restored balance and halted the progress of them.
Rimfax|7.11.08 @ 9:06AM|#
I must be politically retarded. Until I got to the "cunt" crack and the Chelsea crack, I was starting to warm up to Mc's sense of humor.
Josh|7.11.08 @ 9:06AM|#
Guys were eaten by fireants all the time in my highschool. It was no big deal.
|7.11.08 @ 9:08AM|#
Josh,
By eaten, do you mean bitten? Because I think it would be a big
deal if high school students were routinely carried off by armies
of fire ants to feed their queen.
|7.11.08 @ 9:09AM|#
Also, I tend to agree with Mr. Gramm, except for the "become" part, unless he's referring to a period of time long before anyone alive was born.
Fluffy|7.11.08 @ 9:11AM|#
I think Gramm's comments make sense to him because his mental
template of what a recession is probably was set from
1973-1981.
But not every recession will impact unemployment in the same
way.
Frankly, it is likely that due to the vigorous expansions of the
last twenty-five years, the employment equilibrium point has moved
down on the curve, so a movement back towards 6% unemployment
represents a significant change, even if we aren't seeing the
double-digit unemployment we saw in 1981.
If you combined that with a bear market that has destroyed a vast
amount of wealth, AND a housing price systemic decline that has
wiped out a similar amount of wealth, then you have a major
economic event.
I don't think that people who suffer major wealth declines and
increased employment insecurity are "whiners" if they don't like
it. Especially when these events can be seen to be related to
government fiscal and monetary policy, which are things that people
are, you know, entitled to have opinions about.
Gramm seems to be saying, "Sure, our fiscal and monetary policies
and our war policy have undermined your economic well-being, but
it's not as bad out there as 1981 yet so if you complain about our
performance you're a whiner." Fuck you, Phil.
Fire ant #3489128399345611823|7.11.08 @ 9:12AM|#
In fairness, we were conspiring to kill Graham for a brief period in the late-90s. In the end though, we gave it up when we got a cushy dot-com job. You may have seen the Super Bowl ad for FireAntz.com. After the bubble burst, we were able to walk away debt free, but it's been too hectic since then (to say nothing of the new DHS restrictions…) to really take the time out to conspire to kill more than a few random dogs and five year olds each year for old times sake.
Fluffy|7.11.08 @ 9:14AM|#
I guess we've reached some sort of armistice with these
creatures, because surely we haven't rolled them back from whence
they came.
I think what has happened is that US southerners are leading the
way when it comes to turning into Wall-E humans. Since they are too
fat and sedentary to go outside, they no longer mind the fact that
their yards are infested with fire ants and that swarms of killer
bees are attacking everything in sight. Insect hysteria is a quaint
relic of a prior time, a time when southern Americans could still
rise from their La-Z boys and walk through their yards.
Nigel Watt|7.11.08 @ 9:18AM|#
I think what has happened is that US southerners are leading the way when it comes to turning into Wall-E humans. Since they are too fat and sedentary to go outside, they no longer mind the fact that their yards are infested with fire ants and that swarms of killer bees are attacking everything in sight. Insect hysteria is a quaint relic of a prior time, a time when southern Americans could still rise from their La-Z boys and walk through their yards.
Are you failing at being funny, or do you just hate the South?
|7.11.08 @ 9:21AM|#
Given that the link of past McCain "jokes" was to a web site
that just oozed Obama-mania, I think these snippets may have been
just a tad cherry-picked. Besides I found most of them pretty
funny...they reminded me of that old Seinfeld SNL skit with the
game show called Comedy Killers. Of course if McCain had made a
joke about the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand no one
would be laughing!
As for whether we're a nation of whiners...doesn't the media
reaction to this comment just prove that Gramm's spot on?
Benjamin
Episiarch|7.11.08 @ 9:23AM|#
I think what has happened is that US southerners are leading
the way when it comes to turning into Wall-E humans.
Duck, because all the Southerners here are going to be gunning for
your New England ass (you're from New Hampshire, right?).
By the way, I am neither approving or condemning his joke. Jokes
are jokes, lighten up.
Fluffy|7.11.08 @ 9:25AM|#
I'm not making fun of all southerners.
Just the fat ones.
If that ends up being quite a few of them, that's hardly my
fault.
robc|7.11.08 @ 9:25AM|#
I once sat on a fire ant hill. Needless to say, fire ants are
now my mortal enemy.
I was in college and chatting with some hot chicks when the
incident occurred. Needless to say, suddenly having a thigh that
looked like a relief map of the world isnt a turn-on.
Damn you to HELL, fire ants!
|7.11.08 @ 9:26AM|#
The "whiners" quote is a news non-issue and was intentionally
planted in the media to psychologically prepare the American public
for being "stoic," as they lose their standard of living, their
pensions and their retirement.
The road to socialism and then communism is going to be tough, so
don't be a whiner. If we learn not to whine, then we certainly
aren't going to question the loss of our civil liberties and our
Constitutional freedoms, are we?
I think it's funny that the central bankers are actually worried
the ignorant, gullible and mentally lazy American public is going
to rise up and actually challenge the military industrial complex.
So worried that they need to plant BS items like this in the
media.
To all the naysayers, I congratulate you on your overly-human, and
very predictable, ignorance of your own situation. The central
bankers are depending on you to remain that way. Guess who gets to
sit at the top of the food chain when socialism is here to stay?
It's certainly not you, brothers -- despite your blind and eager
support.
|7.11.08 @ 9:27AM|#
I thought the Chelsea joke was pretty funny. It reminds me of Will Ferrell playing Janet Reno on SNL.
|7.11.08 @ 9:27AM|#
Are We a "Nation of Whiners"?
Not really. I'd estimate the only 49.6% of Americans are
"whiners".
|7.11.08 @ 9:30AM|#
We've been seeing Republican lackeys insist that the economy is
just terrific throughout the Bush presidency, regardless of what it
was actually doing at the time. There was not recession in 2001,
right up until there was, at which point it was Clinton's fault.
TallDave and the Montag pout on about three threads a day over the
evil media saying there are problems with the economy, exactly like
Gramm.
And yet, we're not going to see the wingnuts come on this thread,
laud Gramm, and repeat the argument they've making about the
economy throughout this election, because it now runs contrary to
what John McCain has said. Sad.
|7.11.08 @ 9:32AM|#
McCain's jokes were, for the most part, neither funny nor
offensive. #8 was actually pretty clever, and #1 was pretty
tasteless. The rest were all standard "he's the bad guy and he said
the following bad things" crap that you get from many partisans.
Yawn.
Also, at the risk of sounding like I'm defending Phil Gramm (I'm
not), I'll point out that unemployment is nowhere near what it was
in the early nineties. Just sayin'.
|7.11.08 @ 9:34AM|#
Considering how the definition of unemployment has been finessed over the last few decades, I'd hardly say we could measure modern unemployment with historical unemployement.
Dave B.|7.11.08 @ 9:40AM|#
Given that the link of past McCain "jokes" was to a web site
that just oozed Obama-mania, I think these snippets may have been
just a tad cherry-picked.
The list is titled "McCain's Eight Most Inappropriate Jokes." Did
you expect them to be chosen randomly from a representative sample
of his speeches?
|7.11.08 @ 9:41AM|#
Well, I lived in the Midwest for a while, and its residents
tended to be much heavier than people in my part of the South.
Don't know about New England, though I bet the same can be said.
When I was in law school, the vast majority of the healthy looking
people came from Florida or California.
As for the bugs, we've tamed them and are training them to fight
our enemies. Similar to our work with alligators, snakes, sharks,
and coconut palms.
|7.11.08 @ 9:41AM|#
Of course we're a nation of whiners, and that's a good thing. Whining is a luxury good.
Mr. Chartreuse|7.11.08 @ 9:42AM|#
This is pleasantly surreal. It reminds me of that dream
where you see yourself standing in sort of sun-god robes on a
pyramid with a thousand naked women screaming and throwing little
pickles at you.
Why am I the only person that has that dream?
Wow, Chris Knight! How's Mitch doing these days?
|7.11.08 @ 9:44AM|#
I got coated in fire ants trying to light my burn pile last week. One got in my shorts and bit my ass. But I'm not whining. And Fluffy does us southerners a favor by confirming our conceptions of Yankee elitism.
Episiarch|7.11.08 @ 9:48AM|#
Wow, Chris Knight! How's Mitch doing these days?
Eating a lot of popcorn.
ed|7.11.08 @ 9:49AM|#
lackeys insist that the economy is just terrific throughout
the Bush presidency, regardless of what it was actually doing at
the time
Jesus, joe, the Dow nearly doubled from its 2002 trough to its peak
last fall.
Not exactly a depression, was it?
Fluffy|7.11.08 @ 9:49AM|#
I think Reason needs a thread about the looming deaths of Fannie
and Freddie, and the potential taxpayer liability arising from
that.
An interesting case study in the way public/private partnerships
warp the market and paper over huge risks.
Fluffy|7.11.08 @ 9:50AM|#
Oh, to tie that last bit into the thread, I guess I should have
added:
If Fannie and Freddie have to be bailed out by the taxpayers, if
anyone complains about that, ar they "whiners"?
|7.11.08 @ 9:52AM|#
Are you failing at being funny, or do you just hate the
South?
These are not necessarily mutually exclusive, you know.
|7.11.08 @ 9:53AM|#
If Fannie and Freddie have to be bailed out by the
taxpayers, if anyone complains about that, ar they
"whiners"?
no single raindrop believes its to blame for the flood.
Guy Montag|7.11.08 @ 9:53AM|#
A radio show this AM had a good take on this. They played a recording Sen. Obama mentioning the whining thing to a crowd, who proceded to whine righ after he mentioned it.
|7.11.08 @ 9:54AM|#
And Fluffy does us southerners a favor by confirming our conceptions of Yankee elitism.
Great, now regional stereotypes are confirmed by offhand comments on message blogs...
Guy Montag|7.11.08 @ 9:57AM|#
James Ard,
Does chlordane* work on fire ants? Or does one need some chemical
that the enviro-types have gotten banned?
*Not sure if it is still available. It went through a cycle of
being banned and unbanned a couple of decades ago.
|7.11.08 @ 9:57AM|#
A radio show this AM had a good take on this. They played a
recording Sen. Obama mentioning the whining thing to a crowd, who
proceded to whine righ after he mentioned it.
That had to be a hoot and a hollar.
Guy Montag|7.11.08 @ 9:58AM|#
Oh boy, seems there is another round of geographical bigotry brewing from someone I no longer bother reading.
Guy Montag|7.11.08 @ 9:59AM|#
LIT,
Did not write that clearly enough. The crowd began to whine, not
the Senator.
I would have spewed coffee if I had any at the time.
Nigel Watt|7.11.08 @ 10:01AM|#
If Fannie and Freddie have to be bailed out by the taxpayers, if anyone complains about that, ar they "whiners"?
They don't "have" to be bailed out; things would be far more stable long-term were they allowed to crap out.
|7.11.08 @ 10:04AM|#
For serious, do people really care that they're called whiners
by some old guy? When was the last time I heard that... oh wait! It
was the LAST time I talked to some old guy!
This is just a revamped form of "kids these days..."
Guy Montag|7.11.08 @ 10:04AM|#
They don't "have" to be bailed out; things would be far more
stable long-term were they allowed to crap out.
Or sold off.
Guy Montag|7.11.08 @ 10:05AM|#
Wait, does the government even own them, or are they just on perpetual welfare?
Abdul|7.11.08 @ 10:05AM|#
In full context, Gramm's quotes don't seem like that much of a
campaign-killer.
'You've heard of mental depression; this is a mental
recession,' [Gramm] said, noting that growth has held up at about 1
percent despite all the publicity over losing jobs to India, China,
illegal immigration, housing and credit problems and record oil
prices. 'We may have a recession; we haven't had one yet.'
" 'We have sort of become a nation of whiners,' he said. 'You just
hear this constant whining, complaining about a loss of
competitiveness, America in decline' despite a major export boom
that is the primary reason that growth continues in the economy, he
said.
" 'We've never been more dominant; we've never had more natural
advantages than we have today,' he said. 'We have benefited
greatly' from the globalization of the economy in the last 30
years.
"Mr. Gramm said the constant drubbing of the media on the economy's
problems is one reason people have lost confidence. Various surveys
show that consumer confidence has fallen precipitously this year to
the lowest levels in two to three decades, with most analysts
attributing that to record high gasoline prices over $4 a gallon
and big drops in the value of homes, which are consumers' biggest
assets.
" 'Misery sells newspapers,' Mr. Gramm said. 'Thank God the economy
is not as bad as you read in the newspaper every day.'"
Telly|7.11.08 @ 10:06AM|#
The whole world is a bunch of whiners now. Some things truly
deserve being discussed. But worrying about what kind of food is
served at a convention and whether the non-important people try to
get away with riding in air conditioned cars like the upper class
does, instead of being satisfied with sweating away on their bikes,
is just too precious for words.
Fluffy's comments sound a lot like Obama hating on the gun owners
when he thinks they're not listening.
Sometimes this place seems so far to the left that I forget I'm on
Reason and start to think I'm on Rosie Odonnell's blog.
LarryA|7.11.08 @ 10:07AM|#
America is not a nation of whiners. When we get down we turn to guns and religion. I have that from the Donkey's mouth.
Guy Montag|7.11.08 @ 10:08AM|#
Telly,
Stop your whining and get off my lawn! [shakes fist in air]
:)
|7.11.08 @ 10:12AM|#
I think President McCain (or Obama) should make Gramm head of the TSA; he can promptly replace all screening procedures with "No Whining" signs.
|7.11.08 @ 10:22AM|#
Sometimes this place seems so far to the left that I forget
I'm on Reason and start to think I'm on Rosie Odonnell's
blog.
What do the people on Rosie's blog drink?
Cosmopolitans?
|7.11.08 @ 10:26AM|#
I think we are a Nation that is just tired of corruption and the
Bush Regime. maybe its time to stop whining and TAKE BACK what was
once ours!
www.FireMe.To/udi
toshiro_mifune|7.11.08 @ 10:28AM|#
They don't "have" to be bailed out; things would be far more
stable long-term were they allowed to crap out.
Or sold off.
Who would we sell this off to?
Goldman, JP, etc. have used FNM and FRE as a dumping ground for all
of the crap that was on their books.
Most foreign entities don't want anything to do with dollar
denominated assets `cause the dollar is worthless (increasingly
so).
robc|7.11.08 @ 10:28AM|#
Guy,
I dont know about the specific chemical that you mentioned but
killing off ants is part of the problem with fire ants.
Here is an example. I have a field that is 80% black ants and 20%
fire ants. Not liking the fire ants, I use some chemical to kill
them (and the black ants) off. Guess who colonizes faster? Thats
right, a few years later the field will be 100% fire ants.
Fire ants, kudzu, killer bees. Three problems solved by moving just
far enough north.
Re: chicks in the south v midwest. The women at the U of Wisconsin
were noticably chunkier (and less attractive in other ways too)
than the women at, oh, lets say, Clemson. Fair comparison of random
cow colleges. I would take either over New England women.
|7.11.08 @ 10:30AM|#
Phil and I have one thing in common: we both see fire ants
everywhere! They're crawling all over my body right now! But-and
this is the important part-I am definitely not whining! I can take
it, goddamn it!
Actually, Phil has a point, sort of. The recession we're in right
now is not exactly terrible, even though a 20% drop in the stock
market is not a lot of fun, not to mention the fact that it's
probably going to drop even farther, particularly if Freddie and
Fanny fuck up even more (love those "f's!). I feel pity for John
McCain trying to defend free trade in Michigan, which is
practically in a depression, particularly since the only honest
answer he can give those folks is "sell your homes (at a loss) and
move to Arizona, where we have some jobs! And, if you insist on
being an auto worker, better check out Mississippi or Alabama!"
Guy Montag|7.11.08 @ 10:33AM|#
The recession we're in right now . . .
Stop right there and show some proof of two consecutive quarters of
economic decline please.
toshiro_mifune|7.11.08 @ 10:34AM|#
The recession we're in right now is not exactly terrible,
even though a 20% drop in the stock market is not a lot of
fun
Wait til they devalue the dollar even more to paper over the $5
trillion on FNM books.
Devaluing our way to prosperity !
toshiro_mifune|7.11.08 @ 10:38AM|#
The highest bidder.
I don't know if you're watching either right now but nobody wants
them. You will be stuck with this bill, we all will.
|7.11.08 @ 10:43AM|#
Guy, with twenty or thirty mounds, there's no chemical I could afford since the mounds reappear after every rain, which has been every day this summer. The do-it-yourself pest control store advertises a chemical that supposedly works all summer, but I rather my five year old get bit than prance about in poison. Plus I'm hoping ant bites will act as anti-venom when I step on the snake.
robc|7.11.08 @ 10:45AM|#
toshiro_mifune,
You saying no one would bid $1 for Fannie or Freddie? That might be
the case, in which case we just let them fail, someone will buy
their assets.
SIV|7.11.08 @ 10:46AM|#
Stop right there and show some proof of two consecutive quarters of
economic decline please.
Recessions are arbitrarily defined see below:
In the United States, the National Bureau of Economic
Research's (NBER) Business Cycle Dating Committee ultimately
decides whether the economy has fallen into a recession. The NBER
defines a recession as "a significant decline in economic activity
spread across the economy, lasting more than a few months, normally
visible in real GDP, real income, employment, industrial production
and wholesale-retail sales."
How much of the growth is price inflation and dollar
devaluation?
Episiarch|7.11.08 @ 10:47AM|#
Fire ants, kudzu, killer bees. Three problems solved by
moving just far enough north.
You're just trading insects in for bears, deer, mountain lions,
fisher cats, horse and deerflies, and black flies.
|7.11.08 @ 10:49AM|#
Gramm shows his age. Should have said, "America is ..."
A) A nation o' drama queens
or
B) The worldwide epicenter of emo
toshiro_mifune|7.11.08 @ 10:51AM|#
robc - I do say let them fail.
We all know that wont be allowed to happen. Especially with $5
trillion in balance. No one at the Fed Res, Fed Gvt. or banking
sectors wants to see what happens when that amount of mortgages and
RMBS go on a fire sale. That's the same reason why BSC was bailed,
and to prevent JP from going under from the derivatives
exposure.
Guy Montag|7.11.08 @ 10:52AM|#
How much of the growth is price inflation and dollar
devaluation?
None, because those are supposed to be accounted for to see if you
have real growth.
Also, how much price appreciation are you calling price
inflation?
|7.11.08 @ 10:53AM|#
twenty or thirty mounds, there's no chemical I could afford
since the mounds reappear after every rain,
Have you considered a flamethrower?
robc|7.11.08 @ 10:54AM|#
You're just trading insects in for bears, deer, mountain
lions, fisher cats, horse and deerflies, and black
flies.
Im trying to figure out which of these I need to worry about. Deer
would be most likely but they arent really a problem, no more than
in the deep south anyway. A friend of mine hit a deer with his
rental in downtown Atlanta.
I wasnt talking about moving out of the south, just far enough
north to excape those particular pests.
Guy Montag|7.11.08 @ 10:57AM|#
robc,
We don't have the killer bee problem or the fire ant problem in
Northern VA, but they have a rodent problem right across the river
in DC. They have a handgun and smoking problem over there too that
we have not caught yet.
robc|7.11.08 @ 10:58AM|#
Just googled for anteaters and fire ants. They dont eat the
queens, because they want the colony to thrive so they can eat more
ants later.
An anteater may keep colonies contained however.
Episiarch|7.11.08 @ 10:58AM|#
Deer would be most likely but they arent really a problem,
no more than in the deep south anyway.
If you have landscaping that you value, deer are your worst fucking
enemy. They will literally eat anything during the winter, even
supposedly poisonous shit. And running into one in your car is not
good. However, you can shoot them and eat them to recoup your
shrubbery expenses.
SIV|7.11.08 @ 10:58AM|#
Guy,
Then it comes down to if you believe those #s reflect reality and
won't be subject to revision.
How is economic growth in Zimbabwe?
robc|7.11.08 @ 10:59AM|#
Guy,
Same in Louisville. Kudzu is in KY, but only the southern parts. We
do have a Hoosier infestation problem, but, fortunately, they are
legal to shoot year round.
Guy Montag|7.11.08 @ 11:01AM|#
SIV,
Then feel free to make up whatever hysterical stuff you want and
point to anything contraty to it as being revisionist! Oh yea, you
are already doing that, LOL.
I wonder if we could apply this method to something else, like the
global climate . . .
Guy Montag|7.11.08 @ 11:03AM|#
We do have a Hoosier infestation problem, but, fortunately,
they are legal to shoot year round.
Doesn't that degrade their performance on the dirt tracks?
SIV|7.11.08 @ 11:09AM|#
Guy,
All of those economic numbers are subject to official
revision.Technically we don't know if we are in a recession but the
NBER could tell us in 6 months we have been in recession since
January 2008.
|7.11.08 @ 11:17AM|#
Same in Louisville. Kudzu is in KY, but only the southern
parts. We do have a Hoosier infestation problem, but, fortunately,
they are legal to shoot year round.
How do you tell them apart? From their driver's licenses?
|7.11.08 @ 11:30AM|#
The fact that people are whining about being told we are whiners is enough for me.
jtuf|7.11.08 @ 11:33AM|#
A better headline:
McCain and Obama complain that Gramm calls America "a nation of
whiners".
jtuf|7.11.08 @ 11:39AM|#
The US economy grew just barely in the 1st quarter this year. That means were where not in a recession during that time. Until we get the figures for the 2nd and 3rd quarters, it is premature to call the current slowdown a recession. Of course, in an age where tax cuts are labled "spending" and reduced bugdet growth is labled a "spending cut" what can you expect.
|7.11.08 @ 11:42AM|#
Gramm specifically referred to people whining about America's competitiveness.. that camp would include Lou Dobbs, Pat Buchanan, and John Edwards. Gramm clarified by saying if we can't compete against Mexico, who can we compete with? In that context, I agree 100%.
|7.11.08 @ 11:56AM|#
I was proud to have been represented by Sen. Gramm. Fire ants
are no joke, and they were pretty bad in `97,
I tell you what!
Hank Hill
|7.11.08 @ 12:02PM|#
Well argued, SIV. You wrapped that up nicely, what with your
"revisionist" habit of actually looking up the definition. No fair
no fair LOL.
The problem with the "show me two consecutive quarters" argument is
that you can't see that evidence until the end of the two quarters,
meaning it is useless for determining if we are currently in a
recession. If Q3 and Q4 2008 turn out to have negative growth, we
won't know until half way through Q1 2009, at best.
robc|7.11.08 @ 12:03PM|#
Heather,
This hot Clemson grad says right on to robc at 10:28!
You single? Have a thing for geeky Ga Tech grads?
|7.11.08 @ 12:06PM|#
I'm surprised that Nick missed the chance to title this:
It takes a nation of whiners to hold us back!
Kevin
No Name Guy|7.11.08 @ 12:08PM|#
If this isn't a recession, I don't know what is.
This year is shaping up to be like a milder form of
1980--stagflation, an energy crunch, and no growth, but on a lower
scale.
IIRC theres a lot of fuzzy math going on with the unemployment
numbers, too.
Guy Montag|7.11.08 @ 12:14PM|#
If this isn't a recession, I don't know what is.
Stopping right there would have been fine.
|7.11.08 @ 12:15PM|#
I like ed's logic above: from a carefully-selected bottom point,
we've gone up. If you ignore the period when the economy was
declining, it's grown!
No one's questioning, ed, that there was a period of growth in
between the recessions that hit on Bush's watch. My beef is with
people who, during each of those recessions, kept insisting that
the economy was actually growing strongly.
Gramm was saying the same thing at the end of the last President
Bush's term - there isn't any recession, it's just the liberal
media fooling everybody.
No Name Guy|7.11.08 @ 12:18PM|#
I have a feeling if a Republican politician made Montag eat shit, he'd say "mmm, chocolate! Its not shit! Thats just what the liberals say!".
|7.11.08 @ 12:22PM|#
LOL, robc! I am actually married now but dated a "geeky Ga Tech grad" (masters in ceramic engineering) for four years!
Guy Montag|7.11.08 @ 12:23PM|#
NNG,
Wow, such an educated response. You must have a big giant free
thinking brain.
No Name Guy|7.11.08 @ 12:30PM|#
Joe-
And then later in '92, Bush Sr. told everyone the economy was
recovering strongly (it was) and no one believed him. He turned out
to be right.
The public opinion tends to lag behind economic indicators.
No Name Guy|7.11.08 @ 12:31PM|#
Actually, if he had just admitted there was a recession earlier they may have believed him and he could've been re-elected.
|7.11.08 @ 12:38PM|#
NNG,
I'd say, the public is consistently more gloomy than the economic
indicators.
For example, they tend to be way out in front of the indicators
when we're heading into recession.
BTW, not just Bush - I recall editorial cartoons from Clinton's
first term, pinging him for saying the economy was growing and jobs
were being created. It was, and there were - just not enough, yet,
to get the economy back to where it was before the recession
hit.
zoltan|7.11.08 @ 12:51PM|#
Jesus, you guys need to learn how to take a joke. If McCain's lameass jokes are funny, then so are Fluffy's. I live in Texas where we have four of the fattest cities in the nation (and one of the fittest) and I'm pretty sure some other fatty-fat Southern cities made that list too. Get over it, there's more obesity in the South and it's way too fun to make fun of. Stop your whining - Phil Gramm
|7.11.08 @ 12:54PM|#
Massachusetts is the least obese state in the union.
Also, lowest divorce rate, lowest pedestrian fatality rate, lowest
fatal accident rate.
We do have a problem with smug levels on occasion, but whaddaya
gonna do?
No Name Guy|7.11.08 @ 12:57PM|#
Joe, you still have really shitty weather and high taxes. The latter is why so many people move to New Hampshire.
zoltan|7.11.08 @ 12:58PM|#
Come now joe, lowest divorce rate? This must be liberal bias, as
we all know letting those queers marry would destroy
marriage.*
*Education levels is more of a factor in successful marriages than
sexual orientation, yes I know.
|7.11.08 @ 12:58PM|#
I've seen an awful lot of fat people in Boston. Maybe the rest of the commonwealth is thinner?
zoltan|7.11.08 @ 1:04PM|#
Boston was ranked 13th fittest, though I disagree that "city and state initiatives" should be part of the score. Not to mention alcohol consumption.
robc|7.11.08 @ 1:05PM|#
http://recenter.tamu.edu/data/pops/
Interesting population change data there. In the years that it has
been tracked (1991-2007, except 2000), MASS has been negative in
net domestic migration every year. My state, in comparison, has
been positive every year except 1. I hit a few other states - CA
has been hugely negative every year, they make it up in foreign
immigration. Texas has been positive every year.
I was surprised at CA's numbers. The negative domestic migration
numbers dont surprise me now, but I would have expected positive in
the late 90s.
No Name Guy|7.11.08 @ 1:09PM|#
robc-
It seems the only northeastern city that stopped the exodus has
been New York City.
zoltan|7.11.08 @ 1:18PM|#
Are you NH residents part of the Liberty Project? Or whatever that thing was called.
Episiarch|7.11.08 @ 1:35PM|#
Massachusetts is the least obese state in the union.
Also, lowest divorce rate, lowest pedestrian fatality rate, lowest
fatal accident rate.
We do have a problem with smug levels on occasion, but whaddaya
gonna do?
There's a reason we call them Massholes.
We're still the richest in CT, joe. I now laugh at you in a
Thurston Howell III voice.
|7.11.08 @ 2:39PM|#
NNG,
We have middling taxes, and you don't own any property up there, do
you? Talk about high taxes!
I do like the idea that people only move to New Hampshire out of
necessity though. You and robc are probably right, it's not as if
there's anything there to draw people.
|7.11.08 @ 2:44PM|#
MASS has been negative in net domestic migration every year.
My state, in comparison, has been positive every year except 1. I
hit a few other states - CA has been hugely negative every year,
they make it up in foreign immigration. Ditto with
Massachusetts - its population increase is all attributable to
foreign immigration.
Massachusetts, like California, has a problem with housing costs.
We're in one of those "nobody goes there, it's too crowded and
expensive" situations.
To be precise, western Massachusetts has a large net emigration,
because it's in a permanent recession, while eastern Massachusetts
has a net population gain.
|7.11.08 @ 4:32PM|#
"it's not as bad out there as 1981 yet so if you complain about our performance you're a whiner." That's about right, as far as it goes. That said, there's some scary economic stuff on the horizon: 1) shooting war with Iran will cause $10/gal gasoline in the short term, triggering global depression; 2) the Fannie Mae clusterfark ($5T liabilities) could impact the creditworthiness of the USA, with bad consequences for the greenback.
|7.11.08 @ 4:38PM|#
For fire ants, we used to use dynamite. Big holes, ants
gone.
Boom goes the dynamite!
Exham|7.11.08 @ 9:05PM|#
I have to say that fluffy disgusts me.
Not because he's a New England elitist, and not because he has a
bigoted view towards or blind hatred of the South.
It's because he referenced that festering pile of cinematic feces
"Wall-E"
Shame on you fluffy, Shame.
Mike Laursen|7.12.08 @ 12:42AM|#
Why am I the only person that has that dream?
Eric Burden wrote a song about your dream. Modulo the pickle part.
That came from your sick, sick mind.
|7.12.08 @ 11:46AM|#
A totally spontaneous random outburst. Actually, that kinda
makes it sound more interesting than it will
be...anyway...Politicians work for the citizens of the United
States right? Or is this a quaintly outdated concept.
My less than 2 cents (shrinking dollar effect)
is that I had to step out from under my rock for a sec and say he
really REALLY could have phrased this a bit differently.
|7.12.08 @ 12:26PM|#
Wow the words fly on these here blog things. That's why I'm
first timer, yup, yup. I hadn't seen this statement when I posted
my previous comment...
"For serious, do people really care that they're called whiners by
some old guy? When was the last time I heard that... oh wait! It
was the LAST time I talked to some old guy!
This is just a revamped form of "kids these days..." "
And the following posting of Gramm's complete statement is very
important as well. So diving into the issue of the "Politician's
Comment" which like ALL CONTENT is thoroughly manipulated by
whatever media source it is being regurgitated by (um, really, no
offense REASON peeps - hope you understand...) - I merely add that
I would like to see y'all (WHOOPS my parents are from the South but
I was born in the West) experienced bloggers go at it over the
concept of 'even in the context of the complete statement, which
could be proven to NOT be merely casually derogatory, was this
really valid advice, spoken with compassionate intelligence
befitting of a United States Public Servant, to be given to the
Entire Nation of the US at this point in time?'
|7.12.08 @ 2:53PM|#
Gramm is an economist. For economists, whether or not their is a
recession starts with the performance of total production. The best
evidence is that production has grown.
How much of the growth is inflation or devaluation? None. Growth is
measured by the production of goods and services.
But, there figures could be wrong. Still, it is the best
evidence.
On the other hand, production has grown much less than the long
term trend. Growing 1% is well below the trend of 3%.
During the last recession (at the beggining of the Bush
administration,) there was little reduction in production and it
was quickly reversed. It remained stagnate for some time. It was
years before it caught back up to the long term trend.
However, employment shrank a good bit and for quite a long
time.
The best evidence today is that employment has dropped. So, this
secondary sign is pointing to recession.
Asset prices (including stock prices and housing prices) are never
used to determine "recession." They may be a cause or an effect of
recession, but economists just don't buy into the view that asset
prices should always rise.
|7.12.08 @ 2:59PM|#
I think fighting the fire ant menance is a core national defense
issue. Chemical warefare has been tried. A preemptive nuclear
strike may be the only answer. Thank you Dr. Gramm!
I bet some of your libertarian anarchists believed that each
homeowner could fight off Soviet invaders by leaving poisoned
bottles of vodka around the yard! Sorry, but national defense is an
essential function of govenment. And that includes defending againt
fire ants.
|7.13.08 @ 10:32PM|#
Jay Leno got it right: the reduced buying power and worse jobs
most of us have had to put up with over the last few years DO
constitute a screwed economy, whether it meets some academic
definition of a "recession" or not.
The problem with McCain's view is that, just like his opponent,
he's misplacing the blame.
The US economy is not messed up because of free trade agreements or
deregulation or lower taxes or illegal immigration (to the extent
that these things exist), but IN SPITE of them.
The main thing that has robbed us of buying power, especially when
it comes to homes and transportation, is a deliberate set of
policies designed to deprive most people of them. The green
movement is behind those policies.
It's a pity that none of the candidates, not even Ron Paul, has
both the brains to figure this out and the balls to say it in
public.
|7.15.08 @ 12:04AM|#
Hey JDG - can you explain more about the green movement being
behind policies that are robbing us of buying power?
and, Heather, are you on my space?
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