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"If you're off the grid, I'll listen to you"
Via Brooklyn Vegan, I see that post-punk heroes Sonic Youth have announced the track listing for Hits Are for Squares, a new "best of" compilation that will be available exclusively at Starbucks stores. The album's other gimmick is that each song has been selected by one or more of the band's famous fans (Beastie Boy Mike D, Juno screenwriter Diablo Cody, etc.). But what about the dread charge of selling out? And to Starbucks, no less?
Here's bandleader Thurston Moore talking sense to the Boston Globe:
There's no difference between working with Starbucks and working with record labels like Universal and Geffen. It's a knee-jerk reaction from PC watchdogs. I mean, really, which long-distance company do you use for your cellphone? Are you on the grid? If you're off the grid, I'll listen to you.
Whole interview here. Back in 2002, Senior Editor Brian Doherty took a stage dive into "the strange politics of millionaire rock stars." Read that here.
|5.22.08 @ 11:23AM|#
Think they get any grief for still calling themselves "Sonic
Youth?" They've gotta be pushing 50.
Great band, though.
Elemenope|5.22.08 @ 11:23AM|#
Way back in the day, RATM front-guy Zach de la Rocha addressed this issue. Basically he said that when you live in a capitalist economy, you must use that system to deliver your product, even if that product's message is putatively anti-capitalist. It isn't selling out; it's just working with what you've got.
|5.22.08 @ 11:31AM|#
The only musician I know of who never "sold out" was Woody
Guthurie. He refused to take out copyrights on his music. All the
rest of them are strictly speaking sellouts in that they make music
and sell it and keep the rights to it as a way to make a living.
They are not doing it only for the art sake but also to make a
living. Selling out in the context of the typical hipster dufus
music snob means someone off of the approved cool list buying your
record.
And Joe "Sonic Middle Age" just doesn't have the same ring to
it.
Old Bull Lee|5.22.08 @ 11:37AM|#
Even though he's technically "sold out" in the past, Trent
Reznor is pretty much his own record label these days - giving away
his music online and selling the CDs himself.
I saw SY live once, even though their records were getting
repetitive and boring by that time, they were really entertaining
to watch.
They're almost old enough to pull of the name "Sonic Boom[er]."
|5.22.08 @ 11:41AM|#
Sonic Boomers. Heh.
The only definition of "selling out" that ever made much sense to
me was to change your music to make it more commercially-appealing.
Not because the changes are what the artist wants to do from an
artistic point of view, but because it will sell more
records.
I can see how an underground band signing to a major label can make
it easier for this to happen, but the music is the music. I'm
pretty sure that reissuing already-recorded music through a new
vendor isn't going to degrade the quality of that music.
Matt Moore|5.22.08 @ 11:44AM|#
Old Bull Lee - NIN's latest record was released (for free!) under a creative commons license that explicitly encourages others to sample and remix it.
|5.22.08 @ 11:48AM|#
Here's bandleader Thurston Moore talking sense to the Boston Globe:
There's no difference between working with Starbucks and working with record labels like Universal and Geffen. It's a knee-jerk reaction from PC watchdogs. I mean, really, which long-distance company do you use for your cellphone? Are you on the grid? If you're off the grid, I'll listen to you.
Well said. The man recognizes hypocrisy when he encounters it.
|5.22.08 @ 11:55AM|#
"The only definition of "selling out" that ever made much sense
to me was to change your music to make it more
commercially-appealing. Not because the changes are what the artist
wants to do from an artistic point of view, but because it will
sell more records."
Of course that often ironicly results in you selling less records
not more. Take Peter Frampton for example. In the early to mid 70s,
he was a serious musician; Humble Pie, the wah wah pedel that
sounded like a voice, Do You Feel Like I Feel, and all of that.
Then after Frampton Comes Alive made him one of the biggest acts on
the planet the record companies started managing his music. He sold
out in ever sense of what you are talking about. He ended up doing
Sergeant Pepper with the Bee Gees and "I am In YOu" and destoying
his career in short order.
Jesse Walker|5.22.08 @ 11:55AM|#
"Sonic Middle Age" just doesn't have the same ring to
it.
On the other hand, I kinda like "Sonic Geezers." In another decade
or two...
|5.22.08 @ 11:58AM|#
Jesse,
If I had the time to start a band, "Sonic Geezers" would be the
name. I like that, although "Sonic Boomers" is pretty good to.
B|5.22.08 @ 11:59AM|#
What joe said.
If Sonic Youth started to sound like Coldplay, I'd say they sold
out.
fyodor|5.22.08 @ 12:01PM|#
The only definition of "selling out" that ever made much
sense to me was to change your music to make it more
commercially-appealing. Not because the changes are what the artist
wants to do from an artistic point of view, but because it will
sell more records.
And even then only if you ever claimed, or had an image that
implied, being too morally superior to do such a thing. For
instance, it would be hard to imagine saying that ABBA, or for that
matter, Jack Jones, "sold out." Music was their vocation, so
what?
BTW, I once heard one of the New Riders of the Purple Sage quote
Jerry Garcia as saying, "Sell out? Where do I sign??" And then he
elaborated that all it means is that you're getting paid
more.
That said, signing with Starbucks somehow seems a little gauche,
just on abstract aesthetic principles, but beyond that, eh.
Old Bull Lee|5.22.08 @ 12:06PM|#
Matt Moore - I almost mentioned that, but wasn't sure how it
related to the concept of selling out or not. It is something his
label had resisted, but now he's free to do it.
I would also add that somebody established and financially secure
like Reznor is more able to do this kind of thing than your typical
indie band, or even someone like Sonic Youth who don't have the big
numbers like Coldplay. That might explain why Kim Gordon has her
own overpriced trendy clothing line.
fyodor|5.22.08 @ 12:07PM|#
Of course that often ironicly results in you selling less
records not more. Take Peter Frampton for example. In the early to
mid 70s, he was a serious musician; Humble Pie, the wah wah pedel
that sounded like a voice, Do You Feel Like I Feel, and all of
that. Then after Frampton Comes Alive made him one of the biggest
acts on the planet the record companies started managing his music.
He sold out in ever sense of what you are talking about. He ended
up doing Sergeant Pepper with the Bee Gees and "I am In YOu" and
destoying his career in short order.
I dunno, are you sure he didn't make a lot more money during that
period than he did as "a serious musician"? I would guess he did
(that I personally think he sucked then is another matter). That he
didn't last much longer doesn't mean much as he probably wouldn't
have maintained the commercial success of Frampton Comes Alive
regardless. That said, it does seem that the industry has
a spotty record of improving record sales by telling artists what
to do. Devo blamed their demise on listening to their manager too
much, from what I've heard, and I guess there are other like
stories....
Episiarch|5.22.08 @ 12:08PM|#
Way back in the day, RATM front-guy Zach de la Rocha
addressed this issue. Basically he said that when you live in a
capitalist economy, you must use that system to deliver your
product, even if that product's message is putatively
anti-capitalist. It isn't selling out; it's just working with what
you've got.
I remember way back in the early to mid 90's I heard on the radio
that RATM was supposed to be on SNL. At the last minute they
demanded more more money and refused to play unless they received
said money.
De La Rocha is a hypocritical douchebag, sorry.
|5.22.08 @ 12:14PM|#
"And even then only if you ever claimed, or had an image that
implied, being too morally superior to do such a thing. For
instance, it would be hard to imagine saying that ABBA, or for that
matter, Jack Jones, "sold out." Music was their vocation, so
what?"
I object to the whole concept of "sellout" because it mistakes
attitude for aptitude. It is really hard to write listenable music
that millions of people like. The music press and some sections of
serious fans wind up being so obsessed with who is geniune and not
a sellout that they lose sight of the value of popular music.
Go back some time and read the critics "ten best" albums list from
twenty or thirty years ago. You find them filled with records that
were fogotten before the vinyl had dried on the press. There are a
few bands like The Police or U2 that achieved both commercial and
critical success but those are rare. Meanwhile bands like Abba and
Led Zepplin and Cheap Trick sold millions of records and still have
fans today but never made one "ten best list" in their entire
careers.
Jesse Walker|5.22.08 @ 12:24PM|#
I remember way back in the early to mid 90's I heard on the
radio that RATM was supposed to be on SNL. At the last minute they
demanded more more money and refused to play unless they received
said money.
De La Rocha is a hypocritical douchebag, sorry.
He probably thought of it as "going on strike." A working class
hero!
Episiarch|5.22.08 @ 12:26PM|#
Hey, a working class hero is something to be. If you want to be a hero, well, just follow me.
Elemenope|5.22.08 @ 12:31PM|#
I remember way back in the early to mid 90's I heard on the
radio that RATM was supposed to be on SNL.
Ummm, they were on SNL. The reason I remember it was
because they hung an American flag upside down during one of their
songs (People of the Sun, IIRC) and got the broadcast clipped
because of it. It was a big deal, made the news for the few days
following.
Perhaps you are remembering some other vaguely lefty
anti-corporatist early '90s artist? There are so many they
sometimes just sort of run together...
|5.22.08 @ 12:31PM|#
The only definition of "selling out" that ever made much
sense to me was to change your music to make it more
commercially-appealing. Not because the changes are what the artist
wants to do from an artistic point of view, but because it will
sell more records.
I heard this quite a bit about many punk bands that survived more
than a 1 or 2 albums. It rarely occurred to the "sell out" heckler
that the band members were just becoming better
musicians.
|5.22.08 @ 12:32PM|#
"He probably thought of it as "going on strike." A working class
hero!"
He is one of a million douche bags. Billy Bragg is another.
Committed comunist who lives in wonderful house in a very exclusive
and fashionable area of London. When the revolution some day comes,
he can live in a party flat like everyone else, but until then, I
guess a guy has to live somewhere.
BakedPenguin|5.22.08 @ 12:33PM|#
That said, it does seem that the industry has a spotty record of improving record sales by telling artists what to do.
In one unusual case, I'd heard Peter Gabriel's label wanted him to
keep his music experimental (like on his first couple solo album),
where he wanted to make his music more accessible. Of course, in
that case, it probably wasn't that hard to convince
them.
Taktix®|5.22.08 @ 12:33PM|#
I take a free market approach to the whole thing.
If a band presents themselves as anti-selling-out to their
customers (fans in this case), you must stay consistent or risk
losing your customers.
But someone like, say... Clay Aiken, who sold out before he
started, should not be chastised for selling out, because his fans
expect that sell-out music. It boils down to what type of audience
you're shooting for.
You want the anti-establishment crowd? Don't play rib
festivals.
You want a bunch of grannys picking up the latest album from
Wal*Mart? Don't take a dump on stage.
|5.22.08 @ 12:34PM|#
re RATM. I recall Reason doing a piece on "millionare marxists"
a while back.
Too lazy to search....
|5.22.08 @ 12:35PM|#
I heard an interview one time with Eddie Vetter. So Vetter is talking about how he supported Ralph Nader for the Presidency and how all his ideas are great and the like. I would have given anything to ask Vetter what he planned to do if Nader were elected President and put a 100% tax on all income above $200,000 a year (something that Nader really does support). Would Eddie pay the tax and live like an ordinary upper middle class guy or move to another country and continue to be a millionaire leftist? I would love to have seen the look on his face when asked that question.
Gahan|5.22.08 @ 12:36PM|#
...If you're off the grid, I'll listen to you.
Then when he started pitching Verizon's new Off the Grid™ plan with
bonus minutes for every hour of long-distance calling, he really
lost all credibility.
Rhywun|5.22.08 @ 12:36PM|#
I was never under the impression that Sonic Youth were concerned about being accused of "selling out" - are they very political at all? - or needed to defend themselves from such a charge. But hey, if it helps avoid any confusion with the likes of RATM, more power to 'em.
Rhywun|5.22.08 @ 12:38PM|#
put a 100% tax on all income above $200,000 a year
(something that Nader really does support)
Link, please.
Ian Whalen|5.22.08 @ 12:40PM|#
pretty similar situation involving Of Montreal a few months ago
when Outback Steakhouse covered a song of theirs in a commercial.
Long letter by lead singer Kevin Barnes about how its impossible to
sell out here:
http://stereogum.com/archives/commercial-appeal/of-montreal-art-brut-do-tmobile_007208.html
|5.22.08 @ 12:41PM|#
Too lazy to search....
Or to read either. It's the last link in the post. D'oh.
jimmy|5.22.08 @ 12:43PM|#
i'm so glad i'm older now and don't have to pay attention to music much anymore. sonic youth is cacophanous noise. RATM was a front man w/ a whiny voice and cheesy wicky-wicky guitar licks that would've gotten them thrown into the gulag in any worker's paradise worth its salt.
Episiarch|5.22.08 @ 12:44PM|#
Ummm, they were on SNL. The reason I remember it was because
they hung an American flag upside down during one of their songs
(People of the Sun, IIRC) and got the broadcast clipped because of
it. It was a big deal, made the news for the few days
following.
This was a different time, IIRC. It was many years ago. I just
remember the radio jocks mocking them for being anti-capitalist and
then demanding more money.
Rhywun|5.22.08 @ 12:52PM|#
sonic youth is cacophanous noise
Some of it. "Daydream Nation" is sheer brilliance but I'm not too
aware of anything other than the "hits" that came later.
Let\'s Make This Thread About |5.22.08 @ 12:54PM|#
I heard an interview one time with Eddie
Vetter...
Every story that starts like this ends in assholery. Here's
one.
I heard an interview one time with Eddie Vedder where he was
bemoaning the corporate-systemic evil that made it so it was
second-raters like himself who made all the millions off the
"grunge" fad, while the real pioneers like Mark Arm were still
stuck in crummy day jobs.
Write him a check, cunt. You know the guy.
BakedPenguin|5.22.08 @ 12:59PM|#
You want a bunch of grannys picking up the latest album from Wal*Mart? Don't take a dump on stage.
Heh heh. GG!
|5.22.08 @ 12:59PM|#
"I heard an interview one time with Eddie Vedder where he was
bemoaning the corporate-systemic evil that made it so it was
second-raters like himself who made all the millions off the
"grunge" fad, while the real pioneers like Mark Arm were still
stuck in crummy day jobs.
Write him a check, cunt. You know the guy."
No kidding. When I saw Pearl Jam, there were about 17,000 people
there who paid at least $100 a ticket. That is $1,7 million take
for one night. Even if you knock off 700K for expenses, I am
guessing old Mike could quit his day job if you gave him a cool
million. Come on Eddie, a one night stand for justice!!
dhex|5.22.08 @ 1:05PM|#
cacophanous noise
this is a bad thing?
anyway, i don't like of montreal but that guy's essay (in the link
above) was fairly spot on, if far too long. if you like an indie
band, and you hear them on tv, you should be all "hey, good for
them!"
it means they can maybe make up for 50% of their fanbase not paying
them for their albums. :)
|5.22.08 @ 1:11PM|#
Most importantly, the track listing is pretty good.
It could use a few tracks from Sister imo, but it gets
pretty close to getting it right
Russ 2000|5.22.08 @ 1:35PM|#
Didn't RTFA.
If it's simply a "best-of", doesn't it make MORE sense for a band
like Sonic Youth to try a different marketing/distribution channel?
If you use the same channels as before, you'll merely aim for the
same customers.
Billy Bragg is another. Committed comunist who lives in
wonderful house in a very exclusive and fashionable area of
London.
With the British tax rates, I'd say Bragg still residing in Britain
means he's putting his tax payments where his mouth is.
ian|5.22.08 @ 1:35PM|#
SNL
Info
I was a huge fan in the day, and I never heard of any other time
they were supposed to be on SNL.
Elemenope|5.22.08 @ 1:42PM|#
Steve Forbes was the host? No wonder they freaked. ("They" being NBC corporate, not RATM).
Timmy Mac|5.22.08 @ 1:48PM|#
What I've learned today is not to take music suggestions from people who like Ayn Rand.
Elemenope|5.22.08 @ 1:59PM|#
Right, 'cause Rand liked crappy artists like Rachmaninov and
Brahms.
You don't like Beethoven. You don't know what you're missing.
Overtures like that get my... juices flowing. So powerful. But
after his openings, to be honest, he does tend to get a little
fucking boring. That's why I stopped!
You're a Mozart fan. I love him too. I looooove Mozart! He was
Austrian, you know. But for this kind of work....he's a little bit
light. So I tend to go for the, ah, heavier guys. Check out Brahms.
He's good too.
|5.22.08 @ 2:05PM|#
This was a different time, IIRC. It was many years ago. I
just remember the radio jocks mocking them for being
anti-capitalist and then demanding more money.
I don't see any conflict between being anti-capitalist and
demanding more money for the fruit of your own labor.
Kolohe|5.22.08 @ 2:13PM|#
One mild defense of Vetter:
Pearl Jam delibarately changed their 'business plan' after 10 (or
maybe it was vs); stuff like not doing MTV videos anymore.
This decision cost them money.
However, I concur that De La Rocha is an indefensible hypocritical
douchebag.
|5.22.08 @ 2:28PM|#
I would also add that somebody established and financially
secure like Reznor is more able to do this kind of thing than your
typical indie band, or even someone like Sonic Youth who don't have
the big numbers like Coldplay.
This is totally OT, but I remember reading an article in some music
mag around 1990 about Sonic Youth, and how they'd reached the
absolute peak of fame and fortune that any alternative band could
dream of. Sonic Youth in 1990 were the Big Boys on the Block, and
everyone else was trying to reach their Olympian heights of
success.
|5.22.08 @ 2:57PM|#
They're almost old enough to pull of the name "Sonic
Boom[er]."
Heh. I like that one too -- perfect! And they are old
enough!
|5.22.08 @ 3:03PM|#
"This is totally OT, but I remember reading an article in some
music mag around 1990 about Sonic Youth, and how they'd reached the
absolute peak of fame and fortune that any alternative band could
dream of. Sonic Youth in 1990 were the Big Boys on the Block, and
everyone else was trying to reach their Olympian heights of
success."
Before grunge broke, that was absolutely true. In 1990 or so it was
Sonic Youth, the Pixies, Jane's Addiction and Replacements and that
was about as popular as you could get if you were an indie
band.
NP|5.22.08 @ 3:42PM|#
Elemenope,
Most of Mozart is boring as hell. I'll take Vivaldi concerti (or
most Baroque music, for that matter) over Mozart sonatas any
day.
But hold on, Beethoven overtures? Mozart's overtures were at least
10x better. Is there something wrong with your sound system, or do
you just have a poor taste?
|5.22.08 @ 3:48PM|#
John,
Before grunge broke, that was absolutely true. In 1990 or so it
was Sonic Youth, the Pixies, Jane's Addiction and Replacements and
that was about as popular as you could get if you were an indie
band.
Tell me about it. When I was a college freshman, my roommates
started out making fun of my music. By second semester, they were
borrowing my cassettes and rockin' the plaid.
Barry|5.22.08 @ 3:59PM|#
"I was never under the impression that Sonic Youth were
concerned about being accused of "selling out" - are they very
political at all?"
Their lame attempts at "political" lyrics have aged as well as a
Judge Ito joke("I believe in Anita Hill/stupid judge is gonna burn
in hell"...oy vey.) so they've wisely backed away from that
arena.
I was a fan in the 80s, but what sounds "groundbreaking" when
you're 19 sounds like a 1-trick-pony when you're 41. The only thing
from that era that I still listen to is The Jesus & Mary
Chain's PSYCHOCANDY: just as noisy as SY, but with actual songs
underneath the racket.
I believe the "youth" in their name was Thurston's nod to reagae
siner BIG YOUTH. I doubt thay knew they would become the No-Wave
Greatful Dead.
|5.22.08 @ 5:09PM|#
For the record I was never cool at any time in my life. I just once had friends who knew people who were cool.
lee brenn|5.22.08 @ 5:36PM|#
It's always better when they're starving and removed from
outside input, all of it.
Unless they stink, of course.
lee brenn|5.22.08 @ 6:01PM|#
"It's always better when they're starving and removed from
outside input, all of it."
Or unless it is prog we're talking about, in which case they're
probably better off a little chunky.
Elemenope|5.22.08 @ 6:36PM|#
Elemenope,
Most of Mozart is boring as hell. I'll take Vivaldi concerti (or
most Baroque music, for that matter) over Mozart sonatas any
day.
But hold on, Beethoven overtures? Mozart's overtures were at least
10x better. Is there something wrong with your sound system, or do
you just have a poor taste?
Dude, you need to bone up on your films. It's a movie quote (quite
a famous one, I might add).
Personally, I prefer Beethoven to both Brahms and Mozart.
Beethoven's 7th Symphony is one of my favorite pieces of classical
music from the romantic period. I also really, really like
Tchaikovsky's 4th Symphony. Berlioz is also good. As far as modern
stuff goes I can occasionally do Philip Glass (really liked the
Metamorphosis). Mostly, though, when it comes to modern I just
stick with Tool or System of a Down, maybe a little Live, and some
Sage Francis thrown in for spice.
|5.22.08 @ 6:47PM|#
I was a fan in the 80s, but what sounds "groundbreaking"
when you're 19 sounds like a 1-trick-pony when you're
41.
Sonic Youth were groundbreaking. When you hear their music now,
it's easy to think of bands that did it better - 8 years
later.
For the record I was never cool at any time in my life. I just
once had friends who knew people who were cool. Ditto. In
theory, there has to have been a period in between my style being
gay and everybody else doing it better, when I was actually cool,
but I'll be damned if I can figure out when it was. I think the
mathematical definition of a point applies.
NP|5.22.08 @ 7:14PM|#
Elemenope,
I thought you were actually approving what's in the quote, but
guess I was wrong. My bad.
And I prefer Beethoven to Mozart and Brahms myself, but my critique
still stands: Mozart beats Beethoven in overtures. Of Tchaikovsky's
symphonies only the Sixth has done much for me (yet). And no one
really cares much for Berlioz's Symphonie fantastique
except for its last movement, but Les Troyens is a
magnificent work, like pretty much all his monster creations.
Finally I think I'll refrain from commenting on Philip Glass 'cause
my feeling towards him is prolly the opposite of yours.
Elemenope|5.22.08 @ 7:33PM|#
Finally I think I'll refrain from commenting on Philip Glass
'cause my feeling towards him is prolly the opposite of
yours.
Hey, I'm not sensitive! A little disagreement never hurt anyone
(much).
|5.22.08 @ 11:36PM|#
D00d, Sonic Youth is an awesome, awesome band. People focus on
their "noise" stuff, but where's the love for more mellow albums
like A Thousand Leaves and their latest, Rather Ripped?
'80s alternative, underground, indie -- whatever you want to call
it -- is some great stuff. Thurston is right on calling out their
critics as being hypocrites. I know people who think they're really
cool for listening to unheard of bands and once they become
popular, they completely disown them. It's obnoxious and about as
lame as the people who suddenly started liking Sonic Youth because
Nirvana broke into the mainstream.
Anyway, Sonic Youth's great and it's rad to see that they're
standing up to the idiot critics.
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