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Do Drug Offenders Have the Right to Home Protection?
Two Georgia men are asking the Georgia Supreme Court to prevent prosecutors from seeking the death penalty against them. Two years ago, the two fired on police as they conducted a 1 am no-knock drug raid on the group house where the men lived. They say they thought they were being robbed, perhaps by rival drug dealers.
There's no question there was drug activity going on in the home. But other witnesses present for the raid say they had no idea the raiding officers were police. There also seem to be some problems with the warrant, which relied on two confidential informants, one of whom was later deemed unreliable by a state judge. In the months after the raid, the prosecutor initially tried to charge everyone in the house with murder, including one man who lived at the house but wasn't present at the time of the raid.
These guys obviously aren't poster children for the problems with no-knock raids. Let's put aside the question of whether or not they deserve the death penalty. The case also illustrates the point that these raids make things less safe for police, too. It's hard to believe even most drug dealers would knowingly take on a team of raiding police, unless they have a death wish. Drug penalties are severe, but knowingly killing a police officer is almost certain death, either at the scene or once the criminal justice system is through with you. Deadly force to prevent a rival dealer from stealing your supply? I can see that. Deadly force against a raiding police force? Seems far less likely.
Dep. Joseph Whitehead may well still be alive today had he and his fellow officers found a less volatile and confrontational way of serving their warrant.
The outcome certainly couldn't have been much worse.
|4.17.08 @ 2:08PM|#
Hell, if they don't have fourth amendment rights, why would
anyone think they have the right of home protection.
Get with the program.
|4.17.08 @ 2:11PM|#
Do Drug Offenders Have the Right to
That's as far as I read but I am gonna go out on a huge limb and
say the courts will rule "No, they don't"
TallDave|4.17.08 @ 2:13PM|#
It's sort of sad that neither party can admit this whole problem
could be solved by eliminating the laws that make drug trafficking
so profitable and simultaneously unregulatable.
We created conditions that ensured the most violent and ruthless
drug dealers would best prosper, and then we're shocked at the
natural result.
I'm especially disappointed in the GOP. They're supposed to
understand market distortions. It's too bad the mindless so-cons
have hijacked it.
Choir Leader|4.17.08 @ 2:14PM|#
Deadly force to prevent a rival dealer from stealing your supply?
Well, if there was no WoD in the first place, etc. etc. ...
TallDave|4.17.08 @ 2:15PM|#
Hell, if they don't have fourth amendment rights
Yeah, that's the core problem. How the hell did we lose the right
to decide what can ingest?
|4.17.08 @ 2:16PM|#
The case also illustrates the point that these raids make
things less safe for police, too. It's hard to believe even most
drug dealers would knowingly take on a team of raiding police,
unless they have a death wish. Drug penalties are severe, but
knowingly killing a police officer is almost certain death, either
at the scene or once the criminal justice system is through with
you.
When arguing about the inanity of no knock raids, this is a point
that may convince some otherwise unreasonable people.
|4.17.08 @ 2:52PM|#
Radley Balko,
Drug penalties are severe, but knowingly killing a police
officer is almost certain death, either at the scene or once the
criminal justice system is through with you. Deadly force to
prevent a rival dealer from stealing your supply? I can see that.
Deadly force against a raiding police force? Seems far less
likely.
Criminals routinely react to police in ways which are guaranteed to
worsen their fate. For example, why would any rational person ever
resist arrest or engage in a protracted car chase? The odds of
improving their situation by doing so is minimal and yet criminals
engage in such self-defeating behavior routinely.
Criminals are not rational actors calmly weighing the benefits and
risks of their actions. As a group they are impulsive and
self-destructive. Drug use exacerbates this problem.
If a cop calmly knocks on the door to non-violently warrant, some
meth head whose been tweaking for 3 days straight will think that
shooting the officers is a perfectly rational strategy.
Part of the drive towards these lightening no-knock raids comes
from cops tired of burying their colleagues after a seemingly low
risk situation turned fatal after a suspect did something
incredibly stupid.
If I have one criticism of your stellar work on this matter it is
the apparent lack of any input from the perspective of law
enforcement. You might consider investigating their rationales for
employing these dangerous tactics.
|4.17.08 @ 2:56PM|#
If you want to wage war on U.S. Citizens, you've got to expect
some casualties.
What laws of war apply in this case?
Are all enemy combatants to be executed because they defend
themselves?
I know, the lawyers don't buy this argument of war. But if you
really want a WAR, don't concern yourself with body counts. All is
fair in love and War.
Just ask John Walters.
Taktix®|4.17.08 @ 3:00PM|#
Part of the drive towards these lightening no-knock raids
comes from cops tired of burying their colleagues after a seemingly
low risk situation turned fatal after a suspect did something
incredibly stupid.
So why don't they wait until said meth-head comes out of the house,
then ambush him/her with non-lethal means? I mean, they have to
leave the house at some point, even of it's only to get more
meth.
Paul|4.17.08 @ 3:05PM|#
Mmmyeah... here's the problem I see with this particular case.
When you're conducting an illegal operation in your home, and you
shoot at anyone who might be trying to invade such illegal
operation, it's hard to foster much sympathy. It seems to me that
if you truly are conducting said illegal operation, then you might
reasobly expect an invasion by law enforcement personnel. Therefore
making the blanket claim "Hey! I didn't know they were
police," is the kind of...well, a get out of jail free card, if you
will. Of course they're going to claim that.
It's a tough and very narrow line, I'll admit. It certainly does,
however, raise (again) the question of the need for no knock raids.
See Taktik's comment above.
|4.17.08 @ 3:12PM|#
Part of the drive towards these lightening no-knock raids comes
from cops tired of burying their colleagues after a seemingly low
risk situation turned fatal after a suspect did something
incredibly stupid.
Well if the protection of the cop's well being is the most
important consideration, lets just call in an air strike.
Paul|4.17.08 @ 3:38PM|#
Erik Atkinson:
from cops tired of burying their colleagues after a seemingly
low risk situation turned fatal after a suspect did something
incredibly stupid.
I agree. The alternative now is civilians are now burying their
colleagues after the cops do something incredibly stupid.
|4.17.08 @ 3:40PM|#
Zeb,
How reply to this
|4.17.08 @ 3:59PM|#
um...
you said:
Drug penalties are severe, but knowingly killing a police officer
is almost certain death, either at the scene or once the criminal
justice system is through with you.
This statement is only true if you actually get the death penalty
for killing police-if Radley has his way, and they do not get the
DP, then killing police no longer results in a death sentence,
since every criminal in a similar circumstance would then claim
that they didn't know they were police.
Just thought I'd point out a logical fallacy.
|4.17.08 @ 4:01PM|#
We should be careful not to fall for the availability fallacy
i.e. the tendency to subscribe scale and significance to a
phenomenon based on its media visibility or dramatic appeal.
We don't actually know whether on the whole no-knock warrants cost
more lives than they save. We rebel against the idea of innocent or
confused people being held accountable for killing an officer in a
circumstance designed by the police to disorient and confuse them.
However, that doesn't in and off itself not mean that ending the
use of the tactic would save lives and increase justice.
I find the often evinced idea on these threads that police are all
a bunch of muscle bound jerk who put no thought into their tactics
highly suspect.
Life's never that easy.
Observant Bystander|4.17.08 @ 4:01PM|#
"The case also illustrates the point that these raids make
things less safe for police, too."
I accept that these tactics make things less safe for suspects, but
if they also make things less safe for the police (as compared to
the available alternatives), then why do the police continue to use
these tactics?
Is your view that the police are almost uniformly miscalculating
the risks? Is this plausible?
Is it instead that the police don't care that these tactics are
less safe for them because they perceive some other benefit(s) from
using higher-risk tactics? What would these benefits be? It could
be that the police find membership on these tactical teams more
prestigious when they involve greater risks. Greater risks may also
be used to justify the military outfits and the urban tanks, which
then increase the perceived prestige of being on these teams even
more. I don't know.
But if you really think these tactics are less safe even for the
police, then we need to find some explanation for why they
continue.
Maybe you have offered or suggested an explanation elsewhere (maybe
in your Cato report), and I just haven't seen it. If so, then I may
be denounced by (some) commenters for missing it. If the
denouncement includes a link to the explanation, however, it will
be worth it.
Taktix®|4.17.08 @ 4:28PM|#
We don't actually know whether on the whole no-knock
warrants cost more lives than they save.
Not relevant, because this implies that someone must apply a value
to a life in order to weigh it against another life.
Worse still, that someone would be a law enforcement officer who is
biased and to some extent trained to be biased.
|4.17.08 @ 4:28PM|#
Take out the words drugs and meth lab and put alcohol and bootleg operation.in their place.It's a fact murder rates dropped by a huge margin after the end of prohibition.Does anyone think people would be cooking in their house if a steady,regulated drug market was in place?Very few people use meth ,the carnage is a result of unwise laws.Most drug busts are for pot,a rather harmless substance in and of its self.The danger comes frome the illegal trade.
|4.17.08 @ 4:48PM|#
"Dep. Joseph Whitehead _may_ well still be alive today had he
and his fellow officers found a less volatile and confrontational
way of serving their warrant."
"Might", not "may", is the English past conditional; "may" is a
present conditional. The substitution of "may" seems to come from
sports reporting hypotheticals.
Otherwise, a splendid post.
|4.17.08 @ 5:03PM|#
I think Shannon Love's comments are some of the more reasonable things that have been said here. Let's not get so caught up in our self-righteousness that we fail to even consider the other points of view...
NeonCat|4.17.08 @ 5:41PM|#
@ jamie
There is the supposition that the police will be shot executing
no-knock warrants, therefore the person shooting the cops will not
know they are shooting at police. If there are not no-knock
warrants, then the person shooting will know they are shooting at
police.
@ others
I think part of the reason that cops do no-knock raids is that some
(but not all) of them are adrenaline junkies. Surely busting into
someone's home knowing there could be heavily armed people on the
other side waiting to shoot you would get you high if that were the
case. So, the answer would be, (some) cops do no-knock because they
like the effects.
I also agree with Zeb re:meth/Hitler.
|4.17.08 @ 5:54PM|#
I find the often evinced idea on these threads that police
are all a bunch of muscle bound jerk who put no
thought into their tactics highly suspect.
As the initiators of these tactics, doesn't the LEO community bear
the burden of proving their necissity?
Do you have a problem with "mostly a bunch of muscle bound jerks"
vice all?
the innominate one|4.17.08 @ 5:55PM|#
Part of the drive towards these lightening no-knock raids
comes from cops tired of burying their colleagues after a seemingly
low risk situation turned fatal after a suspect did something
incredibly stupid.
Being a cop is risky. If you don't want to assume that level of
risk, don't become a cop.
Cops' tiredness of their fellow LEOs funerals does not give them
the right to abrogate our rights or put their tactics beyond
questioning.
OIF|4.17.08 @ 6:03PM|#
Well if the protection of the cop's well being is the most
important consideration, lets just call in an air strike
It's the logic we use.
|4.17.08 @ 6:20PM|#
Life's never that easy.
To a cop, it is that easy. Arguments of scale aside, they'd much
rather not have to bother respecting your rights at all. In their
eyes, they are right and the suspect is wrong, and the Bill of
Rights is a speed bump on the way to incarceration and
conviction.
Go ask a hundred cops why they became cops. See how many answer,
"to protect the rights of the accused".
We don't actually know whether on the whole no-knock warrants
cost more lives than they save.
Do we know that no-knock warrants actually save lives?
The practice runs headlong into the castle doctrine, and I'm
inclined to believe that said doctrine is of a higher priority to
society than the expedience of a no-knock warrant.
|4.17.08 @ 6:23PM|#
However, that doesn't in and off itself not mean that ending
the use of the tactic would save lives and increase
justice.
I generally find Shannon to be one of the more thoughty posters
here, but this one has me baffled.
In my mind, kicking down someone's door in order to serve a warrant
or make an arrest for a victimless/consensual crime (like playing
poker or having/selling drugs) cannot ever result in justice.
Period. Simply because arresting/punishing people for
victimless/consensual crimes is inherently unjust. It may be the
law, but that doesn't mean its just.
As for saving lives by kicking down doors, I really don't think the
doors are being kicked down because cops were getting shot while
serving warrants in a civilized manner. They are being kicked down
to prevent the perps from flushing evidence. So I don't buy the
safety argument either - no-knock raids are a more-dangerous
tactic, with the additional risk accepted as the price of gathering
evidence.
Dave W.|4.17.08 @ 6:37PM|#
By the way, I think the legal answer is that they do have the
right to self-defense, in pretty much every state, if: (i) they are
genuinely in fear of their lives; (ii) they are reasonably in fear
of their lives; and (iii) there is no resonable way to retreat. In
some states, even less justification is necessary.
As a legal matter, I don't think it even matters if they know that
it is police (although most tribunals would assume that police
won't shoot you if you surrender, thereby negating element (ii)
above in most cases).
As a legal matter, the drugs are irrelevant.
The problem here isn't the law, but rather the judges and juries
who decide what the true facts are.
fyodor|4.17.08 @ 6:57PM|#
I seem to remember being fed the line as a youth in the 60's/70's that no-knock raids were done to keep those sneaky drug addicts from having the chance to flush all the evidence away. Don't know if that's as likely/possible with meth labs...
|4.17.08 @ 7:26PM|#
Well if the protection of the cop's well being is the most
important consideration, lets just call in an air strike
Don't even joke about it. It
has been done.
LarryA|4.17.08 @ 7:42PM|#
If a cop calmly knocks on the door to non-violently warrant,
some meth head whose been tweaking for 3 days straight will think
that shooting the officers is a perfectly rational
strategy.
Any actual examples of this? With links?
Part of the drive towards these lightening no-knock raids comes
from cops tired of burying their colleagues after a seemingly low
risk situation turned fatal after a suspect did something
incredibly stupid.
I remember when these sudden-entry raids started. The single reason
was that suspects were flushing evidence.
"Hey! I didn't know they were police," is the kind of...well, a
get out of jail free card, if you will. Of course they're going to
claim that.
It's a lot harder to claim such if there are marked cars
surrounding the premises with lights flashing, or the cops actually
ID themselves with loudspeakers, or call the person inside on the
phone, or hit the place with spotlights, or conduct the raid in
daylight, or...
We have the technology.
We don't actually know whether on the whole no-knock warrants
cost more lives than they save.
We do know with certainty that the drug laws cost more lives than
they save. By several orders of magnitude.
As for SWAT raids, throwing half-a-dozen adrenaline-pumped cops
feeling invulnerable in their body armor armed with submachineguns
into a dark house with their vision impaired by masks and the smoke
from the flash-bang and whatever it ignited where neither interior
nor exterior walls will stop a bullet is an exceedingly dangerous
situation even without a perpetrator. Some of those officers fell
to "friendly" fire.
William Kostric|4.17.08 @ 11:52PM|#
It looks the cops ran into the first amendment while violating
the fourth. That's the way it's supposed to work.
If people can't wake up and see why it's immoral to trespass and
destroy someones property, kidnap and lock them in a cage for
growing a plant in their backyard then perhaps a body count is
what's required for change.
I personally feel zero sympathy for those cops. I reserve my
sympathy for the victims of the nonsense they initiate.
windycityatty|4.18.08 @ 12:27AM|#
Usually, most states require that the application for a no-knock
warrant cite sufficient exigent circumstances to justify a breach
of the "knock and announce" requirement. So what do cops do? They
make up the exigent circumstances to get no-knock warrants - - just
like they make up shit to get normal "knock and announce"
warrants.
Usually, a few lines regarding "suspects known to have weapons" (or
previous weapons convictions), "security cameras" "destruction of
evidence" bla bla bla - - - another day, another lie, and another
dead body. I agree with the poster above - its a fucking war. The
government declared war and is unhappy with the aftermath. It
cannot be a "war on drugs" as that is a non-sensical phrase. It is
and only can be a war on people. People with lots of guns. What the
fuck did they think would happen kicking down someone's door at 1
am. Or 6 am or whatever. Hard core drug dealers who have valuable
commodities (whether cash or drugs) in their homes sleep with guns
under their pillow or at a minimum within reaching distance. Shoot
first ask questions later is a policy shared by both the raiders
and the raidees. Can't really blame the latter group as the
situation is forced upon them unannounced and unexpected. The
raiders, on the other hand, they have options. There is a huge
difference.
Of course, it sucks that people die for such a stupid reason. And
every dead cop is another poster boy for increased penalties and
another ratcheting up of the drug war. I am reminded again and
again of Einstein's theory of insanity. Repeating the same shit
over and over but expecting a different result.
safely protect|4.21.08 @ 3:06AM|#
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