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Urban Dance Squad
Last Saturday night, a group of about 20 D.C.-area libertarians headed down to the Thomas Jefferson Memorial for some flash mob fun. The prank was harmless revelry: To ring in Jefferson’s birthday, we would meet on the steps of the memorial at 11:55pm, wearing iPods, then dance for about 10 minutes, capture the whole thing on video, and leave.
I had planned to participate, but was about 10 minutes late. By the time I arrived it was already over. The National Park Police broke the whole thing up just a few minutes in, punctuating their lack of a sense of humor by arresting one of the dancers, a friend of mine and a regular at reason events (she's asking her name be kept private until she can speak with an attorney). She was cuffed, taken out to a paddy wagon, then booked and held at a Park Police station. Everyone I spoke with says there was no noise, there were no threats, and no laws broken. The woman who was arrested was stone-sober, wasn't aggressive or threatening, and the dancers weren't trespassing—the Memorial is open to the public 24 hours. Even if one were to assume this was a "demonstration"—a stretch, anyway—permit are required only for 25 or more people. There were about 20 at the Memorial.
At the time, the police refused to answer any questions, referring all calls to the communication number of the Park Police. They also refused to give their badge numbers.
After being held for five hours, the woman was booked and released. She was charged with "interfering with an agency function," which sounds to me like a handy catch-all. Her crime was apparently to ask “why?” when the park police told the group they had to disperse. I'd probably have asked the same thing if I hadn't been late. This all happened at around midnight. No one was bumping into tourists, or obstructing anyone’s way. The only conclusion one is left to draw is that it’s apparently illegal to dance on the steps of the Jefferson Memorial–even with headphones. In this post 9/11 world, whimsy, frivolity, and any straying from the routine will not be tolerated. Also, never question a cop's authority.
Of course, the real irony here is that all of this happened at the Jefferson Memorial, in observance of Jefferson’s birthday. Go out to celebrate the birth of the most hardcore, anti-authoritarian of the Founding Fathers, get hauled off in handcuffs. The photo is almost poetry. One of history’s most articulate critics of abuse of state authority looks on as a park police cop uses his elbow to push a female arrestee into one of said critic’s memorial pillars.
The dancers I spoke with say the other officer pictured in the foreground of this photo was also rather rude, telling other dancers to “shut the fuck up” when they inquired about their friend's arrest. When one person politely asked why it was necessary to use the word “fuck,” the officer replied, strangely, that if the questioner used any more profanity, he too would find himself arrested.
Elemenope|4.14.08 @ 11:28AM|#
Also, never question a cop's authority.
All the rest is piffle. This was the real crime. Good LORD, never
question a cop! How dare you!
TallDave|4.14.08 @ 11:32AM|#
OTOH, I think this demonstrates perfectly the Jeffersonian notion that those in authority will inevitably abuse that authority.
Taktix®|4.14.08 @ 11:32AM|#
Radley,
If you get me this guy's badge number, I'll write a letter a day
denouncing this action.
It may include the word "fuck." Repeatedly.
|4.14.08 @ 11:36AM|#
- You won't get any of that here.
- What's that?
- Dancing. There's no dancing.
- That's right.
- Why?
- It's illegal.
Jump back!
It's true.
Guy Montag|4.14.08 @ 11:38AM|#
permit are required only for 25 or more people
When did that change? At a "Free Kevin" event in front of the USSC
around 1998 we found (and were told by the cops too) that groups of
five (5) or more people needed a permit. We stayed in
groups of 3 or less, seperated by at leadt 3 yards, the whole
time.
Counter to Morgan's view, the paddies really do need to have wagons
named after them. Perhaps if they were ever on the wagon
it would have a different name.
wah, wah, wah|4.14.08 @ 11:38AM|#
Dancing has been illegal in NYC for years, and you don't see us complaining about it!
|4.14.08 @ 11:39AM|#
It amazes me how profanity from police officers is tolerated. I once got pulled over by one of Chicago's finest for allegedly cutting him off, and every other word was of the four-letter variety. Having grown up in the city, I initially shrugged it off as nothing unusual. But then I thought about it... In what other job can you swear at your "customers" without fear of retribution? Seriously, can any of you imagine a scenario in which you swore at a customer/client and didn't get fired?
|4.14.08 @ 11:40AM|#
Morgan,
I agree. It should be "Black Maria" or nothing at all.
Let's see: false arrest, kidnapping, assault and battery. These
cops are looking at some serious charges.
Anyone else watching John Adams? The guy playing Jefferson
is fantastic, magnetic personality and actual intelligence seem to
come through. And the guy playing Hamilton looks like an evil
dog-kicking fucker. Maybe a couple of closet libertarians on the
producing team?
TallDave|4.14.08 @ 11:41AM|#
When one person politely asked why it was necessary to use
the word "fuck," the officer replied, strangely, that if the
questioner used any more profanity, he too would find himself
arrested.
Isn't that eerily like that scene from The Wire?
|4.14.08 @ 11:42AM|#
we would meet on the steps of the memorial at 11:55pm,
wearing iPods, then dance for about 10 minutes, capture the
whole thing on video, and leave.
So, was the whole thing captured on video? If so is it on YouTube?
If not, why... Oh fuck that noise if you got video Posterity
demands it be YouTubed.
Taktix®|4.14.08 @ 11:43AM|#
Seriously, can any of you imagine a scenario in which you
swore at a customer/client and didn't get fired?
The construction industry. Everyone from the C.E.O. and managers to
the trash pick-up guy swears like a fucking sailor.
Episiarch|4.14.08 @ 11:44AM|#
Anyone else watching John Adams?
Only seen the first episode so far (I'm recording it in HD on the
DVR). I'm using it to educate my European girlfriend about
Revolutionary history so it had better be good.
The Democratic Republican|4.14.08 @ 11:45AM|#
These are the situations that reveal the truth of our times.
TallDave|4.14.08 @ 11:45AM|#
Anyone else watching John Adams? The guy playing Jefferson
is fantastic, magnetic personality and actual intelligence seem to
come through.
Yeah, too bad the next episode is the last. I'm really hoping they
do "Jefferson" as a sequel.
It would be nice to see the Alien and Sedition acts repealed
(except of course for the one that's still in force). Maybe that
happens next week.
And the guy playing Hamilton looks like an evil dog-kicking
fucker
Yeah, I was ready for Burr to come on set and shoot him
already.
|4.14.08 @ 11:47AM|#
Let's see: false arrest, kidnapping, assault and battery.
These cops are looking at some serious charges.
It would be a nice chance to turn "ignorance of the law is no
excuse" around for once.
Taktix®|4.14.08 @ 11:47AM|#
Anyone else watching John Adams? et al
Epi,
Yes, it is very good. I am unfortunately not looking forward to
last night's episode, however, as it will be the one dealing with
Adams's split with Jefferson due to the Alien and Sedition
Acts.
Maybe a couple of closet libertarians on the producing
team?
I am convinced that anyone that actually studies
the founding fathers can't help but turn to the dark side...
|4.14.08 @ 11:49AM|#
National Park Police is a truly dysfunctional agency. WaPo has
been documenting their troubles for some time. Unfortunate choice
of venue for Reason.
When did that change? At a "Free Kevin" event in front of the
USSC around 1998 we found (and were told by the cops too) that
groups of five (5) or more people needed a permit.
Assuming that USSC means US Sentencing Commission, which presumably
is not in NPS/USPP jurisdiction. Each jurisdiction has different
rules.
"Free Kevin" event. Harumph.
Ethnic slurs not funny.
District Park Police|4.14.08 @ 11:49AM|#
It's all about seurity.
The public must be protected from capering, careening, questioning
flash mobs.
Guy Montag|4.14.08 @ 11:53AM|#
Tonio,
In this case USSC means United States Supreme Court, the on on
Capitol Hill. Sorry if I plucked a frequently misused acronym.
Episiarch|4.14.08 @ 11:54AM|#
This is what happens when you give a mall cop a gun and new
title.
This is what happens when you give Eric Cartman a gun and
authoritah.
Elemenope|4.14.08 @ 11:54AM|#
... In what other job can you swear at your "customers"
without fear of retribution?
Dude, you are not his customer.
|4.14.08 @ 11:55AM|#
Epi,
It's a good look at John Adams, but as for the whole RevWar, I'm
not too sure. They actually have no scenes of the them writing the
Constitution, for example. And the war is glossed over because
Adams was in Europe for most of it.
Guy Montag|4.14.08 @ 11:58AM|#
They actually have no scenes of the them writing the
Constitution, for example.
Splicing in some scenes from 1776 should fix it.
|4.14.08 @ 12:01PM|#
Video is available here:
http://freethejefferson1.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/this-is-how-it-went-down/
|4.14.08 @ 12:01PM|#
Dude, you are not his customer.
Sorry. I didn't realize that whole "SERVE and protect" thing was a
joke...
Episiarch|4.14.08 @ 12:02PM|#
As long as it properly depicts what these guys thought about liberty, it's a good start.
|4.14.08 @ 12:03PM|#
Sorry. I didn't realize that whole "SERVE and protect" thing
was a joke...
Okay, that's a half-truth.
Kevin Breen|4.14.08 @ 12:10PM|#
"'To serve and protect' is the motto on the door of the police cruiser. It's not a lie if you understand it means 'to serve and protect the state.'" -Bob Jackson
|4.14.08 @ 12:14PM|#
Epi,
It does have Jefferson deliver this line to Adams during the
drafting of the Declaration of Independence:
But I am one of those, too, who, rather than submit to the
rights of legislating for us, assumed by the British Parliament,
and which late experience has shown they will so cruelly exercise,
would lend my hand to sink the whole Island in the
ocean.
It was from a letter to John Randolph in 1775.
|4.14.08 @ 12:15PM|#
Dude, you are not his customer.
Actually, you're both his customer and his employer.
the innominate one|4.14.08 @ 12:15PM|#
The dancers I spoke with say the other officer pictured in
the foreground of this photo was also rather rude, telling other
dancers to "shut the fuck up" when they inquired about their
friend's arrest. When one person politely asked why it was
necessary to use the word "fuck," the officer replied, strangely,
that if the questioner used any more profanity, he too would find
himself arrested.
The correct response to that would be "what the fuck for?"
The real tragedy of this is that we won't get to see Radley Balko
dancing of the steps of the Jefferson Memorial.
Seriously, though, that whole situation is ridiculous. I think it's
time for a new American revolution.
Billy Beck|4.14.08 @ 12:16PM|#
"Aren't these the guys that whacked Vince
Foster?"
No. They're just the patsies who fronted the "investigation".
|4.14.08 @ 12:17PM|#
they could have been TERRORISTS!
Are you kidding? Those cops were scared shitless.
|4.14.08 @ 12:20PM|#
The prank was harmless revelry
There is no such thing as harmless revelry. We're at
war, for fuck's sake.
Rhywun|4.14.08 @ 12:21PM|#
Come on, guys, they could have been TERRORISTS!
Perhaps part of the "Dalai clique" I've been hearing so much about
lately.
|4.14.08 @ 12:21PM|#
Just try something like that dancing thing again! Next time
we'll taser your asses!
WOOOOOO!
Respect me bitches!
|4.14.08 @ 12:22PM|#
The real tragedy of this is that we won't get to see Radley
Balko dancing of the steps of the Jefferson Memorial.
And here I was thinking that was the silver lining of this whole
mess.
fyodor|4.14.08 @ 12:23PM|#
Her crime was apparently to ask "why?"
Reminds me of the scene in Polanski's The Pianist in which
a Jewish woman asks the Nazi officer, "Where are you taking us?"
and he immediately and casually shoots her in the head.
Oink, oink.
Elemenope|4.14.08 @ 12:24PM|#
Actually, you're both his customer and his
employer.
Let me know when you wake up. I'll make you a nice, strong
coffee.
|4.14.08 @ 12:27PM|#
I hope that there will be a follow up post to tell us how this story ultimately concludes.
PC|4.14.08 @ 12:27PM|#
"Dude, you are not his customer."
Yes more of a "no strings attached" benefactor.
|4.14.08 @ 12:29PM|#
Ok, you're only his customer if you consider that you're receiving services that you paid for. If you consider that you have no choice as to whether or not you pay for the services and very very very very very little control over the terms attached to the services you purchased... then yes, I see what you mean.
Fluffy|4.14.08 @ 12:29PM|#
I don't care if police swear.
I'm more angry about the idea that if a citizen "swears", it's
somehow disorderly conduct.
Personally, I think if you shout at the top of your lungs, "Please,
ma'am, pass the jelly, if you don't mind!" while you jump up and
down waving a machete, your conduct is disorderly. And if in a
conversational tone while seated with your hands in your lap, you
say, "Officer, you are a dirty no good fucker," your conduct is NOT
disorderly.
|4.14.08 @ 12:31PM|#
But the real question, is were they dancing with tears in their
eyes?
"Dancing with tears in my eyes
Weeping for the memory of a life gone by
Dancing with tears in my eyes
Living out a memory of a love that died"
Fluffy|4.14.08 @ 12:35PM|#
Kevin Bacon was in a movie called Footloose, where John
Lithgow is a preacher who makes dancing illegal in a small town,
and Bacon must fight him with his spear and magic helmet.
I have never seen this movie, but I hear it sucks.
The Kenny Loggins centric soundtrack also sucks and has haunted
light rock stations ever since.
|4.14.08 @ 12:36PM|#
Instead of dancing you guys should have done push-ups instead. They would not have even noticed you.
|4.14.08 @ 12:43PM|#
Somehow, we have managed to become a nation where the police can arrest you without regard to whether or not you have actually broken any law. How on earth did this happen? Of course, it has happened all along, but previously it was viewed as an anomaly. Now it's generally accepted that the police are free to detain and arrest you simply because they feel like it. It is so fundamentally UnAmerican - and yet we accept it as normal.
|4.14.08 @ 12:44PM|#
I suppose the first red flag for the Park PD was that people were at the Jefferson Memorial at all.
Elemenope|4.14.08 @ 12:44PM|#
Personally, I think if you shout at the top of your lungs,
"Please, ma'am, pass the jelly, if you don't mind!" while you jump
up and down waving a machete, your conduct is disorderly. And if in
a conversational tone while seated with your hands in your lap, you
say, "Officer, you are a dirty no good fucker," your conduct is NOT
disorderly.
Tell you what. I'll do the first, you do the second.
We'll see what we see.
Fascist Pig|4.14.08 @ 12:46PM|#
Personally, I think if you shout at the top of your lungs, "Please, ma'am, pass the jelly, if you don't mind!" while you jump up and down waving a machete, your conduct is disorderly. And if in a conversational tone while seated with your hands in your lap, you say, "Officer, you are a dirty no good fucker," your conduct is NOT disorderly.
You're getting tasered either way, citizen.
|4.14.08 @ 12:46PM|#
What's the Kevin Bacon reference about?
DumbGuy, you've earned your moniker.
Now get thee to an '80s-revival film festival.
Episiarch|4.14.08 @ 12:49PM|#
Footloose is an earnestly goofy film that doesn't suck
so much as blows. For those who were kids in the 80's it has some
nostalgia and amusement value.
Of course, it was hugely popular and made $80 mil, so they are of
course remaking it for 2009. I will enjoy watching the new one
bomb.
|4.14.08 @ 12:54PM|#
So what's next year's plan? Everybody brings Jefferson a birthday cake? Can we rent a pony?
Guy Montag|4.14.08 @ 12:56PM|#
So what's next year's plan? Everybody brings Jefferson a
birthday cake? Can we rent a pony?
I hope by next year we can at least bring shotguns, maybe even
pistols.
Guy Montag|4.14.08 @ 12:57PM|#
SugarFree,
Yea, I saw on a 30 second docmentry that ponies eat shingles and
bite.
fyodor|4.14.08 @ 12:58PM|#
LMNOP,
Are you arguing what "is" or what "ought"?
Cause if it's what "is", in regard to how the police act, then
you're only repeating what everyone else here knows and is, indeed,
complaining about.
If you're arguing what "ought," that the police should
treat a calm insult as disorderly conduct and not respect the
citizenry as the folks they are serving, well then please come out
and say so, so that we can address it directly. Thanks.
Mike Laursen|4.14.08 @ 12:59PM|#
It would be a nice chance to turn "ignorance of the law is
no excuse" around for once.
Notice that nobody ever bothers using that phrase anymore?
|4.14.08 @ 1:02PM|#
Sorry. I didn't realize that whole "SERVE and protect" thing was a joke...
Okay, that's a half-truth.
More accurately, it's incomplete. The whole motto is "To Serve and
Protect Ourselves".
|4.14.08 @ 1:05PM|#
I've watched the videos of young libertarians prissily
proclaiming their rights to security guards at the Jefferson
Memorial.
Should she have been arrested? No. But there's a lot of high minded
rhetoric about rights and constitutions and what "Thomas Jefferson
would've done" which is pretty silly.
First, if we want to get really libertarian about it:
1) gov't shouldn't be in the business of building monuments to dead
presidents;
2) it's unlikely Jefferson would've wanted a monument built by a
massive federal government to himself;
3) if you want to dance in honor of Jefferson's birthday, that's
super. Put up a picture of the man in your back yard, and knock
yourself out.
As for the whole civil disobedience angle, I'm pretty unimpressed.
First, they may have been violating a requirement that they have a
permit. If not, that was a judgment call by rude Park Police. The
one person got arrested, she was released a few hours later. Big
deal.
Had they been, you know, protesting some real abuses by government
- I don't know, Gitmo and the War in Iraq come to mind - I'd be a
little more sympathetic.
As it is they got more or less what they expected to get.
|4.14.08 @ 1:11PM|#
Steve Cook doesn't get it.
Oh, well. Somebody has to occupy the left part of the bell
curve.
Guy Montag|4.14.08 @ 1:12PM|#
Mr. Cook,
I would add, if a monument to a dead president is built, by
anybody, they should make the quotes accurate. Not looking it up
now, but many of the quotes in the Jefferson Memorial are manglings
others work mashed in with his.
|4.14.08 @ 1:17PM|#
I'm with Steve.
Fuck that "right" of assembly shit! Probably just something
right-wingers made up!
The Democratic Republican|4.14.08 @ 1:20PM|#
Steve Cook:
The very point of the situation was that it HAD no meaning and
something shouldn't HAVE to have meaning to be tolerated. A general
attitude of leaving people alone unless something is REALLY
happening is something that should be expected of police and
everyone.
It's no big deal that she was released? So it would matter more if
she had been beaten? Falling for the quick release is the dumbest
idea in the book.
|4.14.08 @ 1:20PM|#
Guy Montag:
Oh, and the "Jefferson Memorial" was conceived of by that most
libertarian of presidents, FDR, as a New Deal-era homage to
Jefferson oh, and by the way, an overweening federal
government.
Next time young libertarians want to dance on Thomas Jefferson's
birthday, maybe they should pick a location more befitting the man:
private, modest, and conducive to revelry: The Velvet Lounge!
|4.14.08 @ 1:20PM|#
The Jefferson Memorial is free as are many of the museums on the
mall.
The security people in all these places are and have been, in my
experience, unprofessional, rude and hostile. I've been down there
enough and seen it enough times that I know it's more than just a
coincidence that I keep seeing the behavior.
It's a case of getting what you pay for, I guess.
|4.14.08 @ 1:20PM|#
Had they been, you know, protesting some real abuses by
government - I don't know, Gitmo and the War in Iraq come to mind -
I'd be a little more sympathetic.
OMG! You are so right! Also people please stop feeding your pets,
there are starving people in Africa.
|4.14.08 @ 1:21PM|#
I'm also with Steve.
Clearly the libertarians got what they expected to get because they
KNEW that dancing on the steps of the Jefferson memorial was
grounds for police intervention. You can't provoke the police and
then complain when they act accordingly!
|4.14.08 @ 1:23PM|#
Those kids should be out shopping! Not prancing around like a bunch of degenerate fairies!
|4.14.08 @ 1:24PM|#
"Fuck that "right" of assembly shit! Probably just something
right-wingers made up!"
Holy crap! Has the Supreme Court between Saturday and this morning
eviscerated its "time manner place" restrictions on the right of
assembly? And the Park Police has no power to enforce permit
restrictions?
Anyhow, as I said at the top of my comment: No, she shouldn't have
been arrested.
But she spent 5 hours in jail, and on the scale of human rights
abuses, that's pretty far down at the bottom.
Guy Montag|4.14.08 @ 1:25PM|#
The security people in all these places are and have been,
in my experience, unprofessional, rude and hostile. I've been down
there enough and seen it enough times that I know it's more than
just a coincidence that I keep seeing the behavior.
No kidding! A retired CSM of the National Guard (and about 3 tour
Vietnam vet) I used to work with got barked at by one of those
revenuers while he was running, on his morning workout, past the
Korean War Memorial. "No running near the monuments".
Guy Montag|4.14.08 @ 1:26PM|#
OMG! You are so right! Also people please stop feeding your
pets, there are starving people in Africa.
Does that mean the pony is out for sure next time?
Fluffy|4.14.08 @ 1:27PM|#
Reinmoose, are you being facetious?
You can of course provoke the police and then complain. What if the
entire point of your provocation was to demonstrate that the police
would react incorrectly? In that instance, you pretty much HAVE TO
complain, or you've stopped your project in the middle.
NeonCat|4.14.08 @ 1:28PM|#
When whimsy is outlawed, only outlaws will have whimsy. Unfortunately, most outlaws are too serious to be whimsical.
|4.14.08 @ 1:29PM|#
Fluffy -
Yes. I was just going with the flow of sarcastically agreeing with
Steve Cook.
Maybe next time my mocking-comments shouldn't sound so
realistic?
|4.14.08 @ 1:32PM|#
Look, this is DC. If you aren't spending 5 hours in jail regularly then you just aren't getting out enough.
Guy Montag|4.14.08 @ 1:32PM|#
Unfortunately, most outlaws are too serious to be
whimsical.
So are most cops. Unless those are the outlaws you were talking
about.
Lord Exeter|4.14.08 @ 1:32PM|#
Dare you mock such majestic speech?
Scorn and defiance; slight regard, contempt,
And any thing that may not misbecome
The mighty sender, doth he prize you at.
Thus says my king; an' if your father's highness
Do not, in grant of all demands at large,
Sweeten the bitter mock you sent his majesty,
He'll call you to so hot an answer of it,
That caves and womby vaultages of France
Shall chide your trespass and return your mock
In second accent of his ordnance.
Fluffy|4.14.08 @ 1:34PM|#
Steve -
Try as I might, I can't seem to find the words "time, place, or
manner" anywhere in the 1st Amendment.
But if you want to talk about it anyway, the entire [very lame]
theoretical justification for time, place and manner restrictions
on public assembly is to prevent situations where such assemblies
disrupt the rights of others to access public property, to move
freely across public property, etc. How exactly did this assembly
disrupt any right of anyone else?
Actually, the "time, place and manner" theory is a pretty good
example of a case where something that started out as a pretty
benign limitation on assembly ["your assemblies should not block
public highways for days at a time"] has evolved into an all
purpose tool of authoritarianism ["anyone who carries a placard
outside of the fenced free speech zone will be immediately tasered
and beaten with truncheons"]. So fuck it, I'm now a happy right of
assembly absolutist now. Our government has shown that it cannot be
trusted with the accomodationist concession of being granted the
power to put time, place and manner restrictions on the assembly
right.
Ben F. Gates|4.14.08 @ 1:35PM|#
"I would add, if a monument to a dead president is built, by
anybody, they should make the quotes accurate. Not looking it up
now, but many of the quotes in the Jefferson Memorial are manglings
others work mashed in with his."
A lot of the other buildings in DC have rather ambiguous slogans
written on them. Many just glance at them but a few might find them
a little more interesting.
fyodor|4.14.08 @ 1:36PM|#
Translation of Steve Cook:
As long as cops are harrassing people for something I have no
interest in doing, it's not a big deal, so quite whining,
losers!
|4.14.08 @ 1:36PM|#
Does that mean the pony is out for sure next
time?
Not unless we feed the pony to starving Africans. And protest
Gitmo. And the Iraq War. And adhere the the gutting of the right of
assembly by a quisling Supreme Court. And complain about a monument
built before most of us were born. And think it's "no big deal" to
get shoved against a pillar and arrested and booked for something
that's not a crime.
Did I miss anything?
Episiarch|4.14.08 @ 1:38PM|#
Hey Steve, you know that arrests, even without convictions, are on your record, right? So getting released 5 hours later, besides being total bullshit, could actually be a problem for her in the future. But that's OK, right, because she dared to dance around at 11:55 PM on Federal property?
|4.14.08 @ 1:43PM|#
Episiarch -
at least get it right. < sigh >
She wasn't arrested for dancing. She was arrested for asking why
she wasn't allowed to dance. This is a MUCH more serious offense,
and the distinction is very important.
Guy Montag|4.14.08 @ 1:45PM|#
SugarFree,
Okay, I will get a permit to protest the proposed closing of the
detention facility at Guantanimo Bay (wearing my Club G'tmo
t-shirt), the looming pull-out in shame in Iraq, gripe about the
quotes on the Jefferson Memorial, try to find the hottest chick fed
to shove me around (I hope she is a motorcycle officer, nice
boots), BUT THAT IS AS FAR AS I AM GOING! The pony stays here, not
on a BBQ! Will send them some Montag Hanukkah Hams instead.
Guy Montag|4.14.08 @ 1:50PM|#
SugarFree,
I love BBQ! Can we cook pork ribs by the Memorial while we clean
our shotguns and take turns riding the pony?
BTW, will have a shotgun holster on the ponie's saddle too.
|4.14.08 @ 1:54PM|#
Hey Steve, you know that arrests, even without convictions,
are on your record, right? So getting released 5 hours later,
besides being total bullshit, could actually be a problem for her
in the future.
Yeah. That sucks if she doesn't get it expunged. I'll shed a little
tear tonight. Of course she can pay a few bucks - in NC it's $60 -
and arrests and dismissed charges are expunged - in NC it takes
about 90 days - depending on local law. She then can legally deny
she was ever arrested.
You would not believe the number of people arrested on phony
baloney charges that I see every day. Of course, they usually
aren't out looking for a confrontation, they're just driving their
cars to work with expired registration tags or whatever. Because
they're poor, it ends up being a real infringement on rights.
Maybe I'll post some youtube videos and all you libertarians can
pawn your iPods to raise some money for those folks to get their
records expunged too!
Guy Montag|4.14.08 @ 1:57PM|#
Yeah. That sucks if she doesn't get it expunged. I'll shed a
little tear tonight. Of course she can pay a few bucks - in NC it's
$60 - and arrests and dismissed charges are expunged - in NC it
takes about 90 days - depending on local law. She then can legally
deny she was ever arrested.
Actually, that is a bit incorrect. The record of the arrest is
still there, they do not destroy the record. All they do is cover
it up and the reason for the arrest is normally not revealed to
casual inquiries.
Certain government agencies, like the ones that require or do
clearances, do get access to the arrest record and charges.
|4.14.08 @ 1:58PM|#
That's right Steve.
She totally asked for it, and it would do her well to pay up and
shut up. Who ever heard of asking the police a question?
|4.14.08 @ 1:58PM|#
I'm going home this weekend to have real BBQ, Western Kentucky
BBQ! Woo!
(Shredded meat, thin spicy vinegar-based sauce; an emphasis on
mutton as a regional specialty)
Although, I've never really found a cuisine of BBQ I didn't like.
As for critters, well: Possum was a bit dodgy, raccoon horribly
greasy, squirrel looks a little to much like a roasted fetus, and
rabbit is better in a braise.
|4.14.08 @ 2:01PM|#
As long as cops are harrassing people for something I have
no interest in doing, it's not a big deal, so quite whining,
losers!
I watched the video. I wouldn't call it "harassment" so much as
Park Police rudely enforcing what they took to be the law - which
is that you need a permit to have an organized activity at the
Jefferson Memorial. Maybe my perception was clouded by the prissy
lecturing by the libertarians involved about "What Thomas Jefferson
Would Think" or indignant waving of Cato Constitutions, as if the
Constitution is the final word on government action.
|4.14.08 @ 2:01PM|#
Well, Steve, it sure looks like you taught those nasty libertarians a thing or two. Your work here is done. That warm blanket of "social justice" should keep you warm all night.
Episiarch|4.14.08 @ 2:01PM|#
You would not believe the number of people arrested on phony
baloney charges that I see every day.
Really? What do you do that you see all these arrests?
Guy Montag|4.14.08 @ 2:03PM|#
I really do not like mustard based BBQ sauce, but I do like both
tomato and vinegar based varieties.
A fine white wine goes with opossum, do not make the mistake many
Northerners make by serving red wine with it. They just don't know
how to apply that red/white rule when it comes to marsupials.
Barry Hobama|4.14.08 @ 2:06PM|#
"Aren't these the guys that whacked Vince Foster?"
No that was Hillary after she threw back a shot and a beer.
|4.14.08 @ 2:06PM|#
Actually, that is a bit incorrect. The record of the arrest
is still there, they do not destroy the record. All they do is
cover it up and the reason for the arrest is normally not revealed
to casual inquiries.
Certain government agencies, like the ones that require or do
clearances, do get access to the arrest record and
charges.
There is nothing incorrect about what I wrote. She could deny that
she was arrested on a bar application, for instance, if the arrest
is expunged.
I didn't say the arrest went completely away, and yes if she wants
to work for the NSA (or similar organization), she will have to
answer a question about it.
Eternal Vigilance is the Price of Liberty, so I'm sure that's a
price she's happy to pay. And if she wants to work for the NSA or
CIA, well then, our problems are only just beginning.
She totally asked for it, and it would do her well to pay up
and shut up. Who ever heard of asking the police a
question?
Well, now she knows doesn't she? Lesson learned, and at a fairly
small cost.
As I said, are you aware of how many people are arrested every day
on these kinds of charges? And they aren't out celebrating Tom
Jefferson's birthday looking for a confrontation on Federal
Government land.
|4.14.08 @ 2:07PM|#
. . .as if the Constitution is the final word on government action.
But that's what they told me in law school! Wonder if I can get my
money back? Of course, we also spent two weeks on the Commerce
Clause, learning repeatedly that it is not a grant of general
police power to Congress, only to learn that, for exam purposes, it
is a grant of general police power to Congress.
Vinegar-based sauces are okay, but tomato-based are the way God
meant us to barbecue.
|4.14.08 @ 2:08PM|#
A retired CSM of the National Guard (and about 3 tour
Vietnam vet) I used to work with got barked at by one of those
revenuers while he was running, on his morning workout, past the
Korean War Memorial. "No running near the monuments".
I ALWAYS run by the Korean War Memorial. That shit is creepy!
Fluffy|4.14.08 @ 2:08PM|#
Steve,
I don't think you realize it, but it is precisely the fact that you
regard what you're hearing as "prissy lecturing" that makes you a
dick.
It makes you a carbon copy of the rightards I talk to who bitch
that the ACLU "goes too far", or "is elitist", or "sticks up for
the wrong people". I'll bet they would say, if questioned, that
they don't like the ACLU's "prissy lecturing".
Dave W.|4.14.08 @ 2:08PM|#
There is nothing incorrect about what I wrote. She could
deny that she was arrested on a bar application, for instance, if
the arrest is expunged.
On the bar application I am filling out they say that you have to
disclose it anyway, even if expunged.
Episiarch|4.14.08 @ 2:10PM|#
And Dave's been arrested many times, so it hurts.
Steve, again, what do you do that you see all these arrests? Are
you a cop?
|4.14.08 @ 2:12PM|#
On the bar application I am filling out they say that you
have to disclose it anyway, even if expunged.
You must be in a thuggishly authoritarian state.
But that's what they told me in law school! Wonder if I can get
my money back? Of course, we also spent two weeks on the Commerce
Clause, learning repeatedly that it is not a grant of general
police power to Congress, only to learn that, for exam purposes, it
is a grant of general police power to Congress.
Yeah, you should definitely get your money back because that is a
bunch of fucking nonsense. You routinely counsel your clients to
look to the Constitution to figure out how their rights play out
vis-a-vis the gov't?
And the commerce clause has never been a general grant of police
power, and is certainly not, post Lopez and Morrisson, a general
grant of police power.
|4.14.08 @ 2:12PM|#
But she spent 5 hours in jail, and on the scale of human
rights abuses, that's pretty far down at the bottom.
And the arresting officer was disciplined how? Nobody accuses you
of being the brightest bulb in the string, do they?
Fluffy|4.14.08 @ 2:13PM|#
As I said, are you aware of how many people are arrested
every day on these kinds of charges?
Have you ever visited this site before or what?
Two third's of Balko's work is documenting unfair arrests and
prosecutions.
Every last YouTube video of some kid tasered for skateboarding is
posted here to the appropriate level of cop-denunciation.
Guy Montag|4.14.08 @ 2:13PM|#
There is nothing incorrect about what I wrote. She could
deny that she was arrested on a bar application, for instance, if
the arrest is expunged.
Well, we see that is incorrect too.
Now, if you want to try something like 'she could tell a bum on the
street she was never arrested and he will never be the wiser' that
little bit would be "correct", but the rest of your statement would
still be wrong.
Didn't your lawyer tell you this when you applied for all those
expungements?
|4.14.08 @ 2:19PM|#
If I had a dog as clueless as Steve Cook, I'd be morally obligated to spay the bitch.
Other Matt|4.14.08 @ 2:23PM|#
The construction industry. Everyone from the C.E.O. and managers to
the trash pick-up guy swears like a fucking sailor.
Point of order. Not AT each other, unless in jest. Otherwise, that
tends to cause severe fights.
Taktix®|4.14.08 @ 2:23PM|#
As I said, are you aware of how many people are arrested
every day on these kinds of charges? And they aren't out
celebrating Tom Jefferson's birthday looking for a confrontation on
Federal Government land.
I was unaware that "Federal Government land" was no longer public
land. Did I miss that somewhere?
And just because arrests happen every day doesn't make them right.
Rapes happen every day too, fuckface, does that make rape O.K. as
well?
I'm going to guess you're part of the privileged police class. I'm
sure it's funny to you to see us lowly civilians quibble about our
"rights."
But rest assured, sir, when the time comes to take or rights back,
your superiors will put the impressionable idiots like you on the
front lines as a buffer for the first volleys of tyranny popping
lead.
Fuck you.
|4.14.08 @ 2:26PM|#
And the arresting officer was disciplined how? Nobody
accuses you of being the brightest bulb in the string, do
they?
What should he be disciplined for? Being rude? Ok, fair enough.
Otherwise, seems to me he was just doing his job. If you don't want
to be arrested by the Park Police, don't go to the Jefferson
Memorial.
I haven't gone to any memorials since 2001, when it was clear to me
from various reports that the police are obnoxious and rude.
Dave W.|4.14.08 @ 2:26PM|#
You must be in a thuggishly authoritarian state.
Either that or you just don't know what you are talking about.
Episiarch|4.14.08 @ 2:28PM|#
We're waiting to hear what you do that enables you to witness all these arrests, Steve. Cop? Prosecutor? Don't want to say?
Guy Montag|4.14.08 @ 2:29PM|#
If you don't want to be arrested by the Park Police, don't
go to the Jefferson Memorial.
Is there a "Best of H&R"? That one is classic!
|4.14.08 @ 2:32PM|#
Steve Cook -
A group of law abiding citizens are celebrating one of the founding
father's birthday.
Are you still with me?
They are bothering nobody and breaking no laws.
This is where it gets really complicated, so pay
attention.
There innocuous* revelry** is halted by police because he, like
you, is an ignoramus.
Is this getting too difficult to comprehend?
One of the innocent celebrants get's arrested, another gets
threatend with arrest for exercising their first amendment
rights.
Now here comes the part you don't seem to
understand.
Freedom loving Americans are pissed about it.
Any questions?
* You can look that word up.
** That one too.
|4.14.08 @ 2:32PM|#
Me: She totally asked for it, and it would do her well to
pay up and shut up. Who ever heard of asking the police a
question?
Steve Cook: Well, now she knows doesn't she? Lesson learned,
and at a fairly small cost.
I was mocking you, Steve. I'm sorry if you didn't get that.
|4.14.08 @ 2:32PM|#
I was unaware that "Federal Government land" was no longer
public land.
Well, if you're a fool as to believe that there is a "public" that
"owns" land, then I can see how you'd be confused.
Is it your position that the individuals have the right to be dance
on any piece of land they wish any time they wish. Certainly that
doesn't go for roads, does it?
So let's ratchet down the rhetoric for a moment. This is a federal
monument. The federal government in its infinite wisdom through the
park police has various regulations (a permit is required in some
instances) and duly authorized personnel to carry out those
regulations and laws.
That's what happened here. The police were obnoxious. They may have
incorrectly interpreted the laws and regulations in arresting that
woman. That's wrong, and I weep for the loss of innocence.
But it's not a violation of her constitutional or even fundamental
rights. It's the misapplication of some regulatory rule.
In the meantime, she, and libertarians everywhere, got an object
lesson in how the government works. And I would guess they won't be
dancing at the Jefferson Memorial anymore.
Now, maybe they could turn their attention to, say, Gitmo or NSA
wiretapping or John Yoo torture memos. You know, shit that really
matters.
|4.14.08 @ 2:35PM|#
And I would guess they won't be dancing at the Jefferson
Memorial anymore.
Wow. You really don't know any libertarians, do you?
|4.14.08 @ 2:36PM|#
Oh you know what's even funnier about this shit! It's that the
some of the same libertarians who are up in arms about this little
incident supported Rudy Giuliani for President. I'm looking at
Peter Suderman.
Giuliani MADE his career on arbitrarily enforcing stupid
regulations, pursuing people who questioned his authority, ruining
perceived enemies.
Guy Montag|4.14.08 @ 2:37PM|#
Man, I am on here pretty frequently and I don't remember much support for Guilini on here, especially from me.
Episiarch|4.14.08 @ 2:38PM|#
Now, maybe they could turn their attention to, say, Gitmo or
NSA wiretapping or John Yoo torture memos. You know, shit that
really matters.
Where do you think these things come from, Steve? Maybe from a
government that is increasingly arrogant about its own power,
reflected in such actions as arresting people at public monuments?
What system do people like John Yoo rise through again?
|4.14.08 @ 2:38PM|#
Wow. You really don't know any libertarians, do
you?
Believe you me, I know far too many libertarians, including the one
who got arrested. She's actually quite a very earnest and
courageous libertarian.
It's just the blogospheric libertarians I don't like.
Dave W.|4.14.08 @ 2:39PM|#
But it's not a violation of her constitutional or even
fundamental rights. It's the misapplication of some regulatory
rule.
Why do you think it does not amount to the intentional tort of
"false arrest"?
I mean there may be qualified immunity if the misapplication was
made with sufficient good faith in judgement (or whatever you want
to call it), but if the video shows no hint of actual interference
with official duties then it seems like both the policeman and his
employer would be on the hook for false arrest.
|4.14.08 @ 2:40PM|#
Where do you think these things come from, Steve? Maybe from a
government that is increasingly arrogant about its own power,
reflected in such actions as arresting people at public monuments?
What system do people like John Yoo rise through again?
First they came for me, but I did nothing because I wasn't dancing
at the Jefferson Memorial... Yah. That ship has sailed.
Echoing what Garet Garrett said once upon a time, the revolution
passed by in the night, singing songs to Iraqi freedom.
Taktix®|4.14.08 @ 2:41PM|#
If you don't want to be arrested by the Park Police, don't
go to the Jefferson Memorial.
Oh, I see. The woman in question was supposed to know what she was
doing was illegal, despite the fact that it isn't illegal.
Right.
We've had laws encoded since 1760 B.C.E. to prevent shit like this
from happening, namely, making up laws on the fucking
spot.
Please sir, tell us what esteemed profession allows you to be so
aware of these day-to-day instances.
Let me guess, janitor at a law office?
|4.14.08 @ 2:43PM|#
Why do you think it does not amount to the intentional tort
of "false arrest"?
Because I don't think it was intentional. I think the cop was
mistaken. So it's not an intentional tort. If you've got evidence
that it was intentional - as opposed to his mistaken belief that he
was arresting her on proper grounds - then produce it. But that's
going to be a pretty tough mountain to climb.
|4.14.08 @ 2:44PM|#
I was mocking you, Steve. I'm sorry if you didn't get
that.
Steve has already established that he is not the best trained pony
in the circus.
|4.14.08 @ 2:46PM|#
Oh you know what's even funnier about this shit! It's that
the some of the same libertarians who are up in arms about this
little incident supported Rudy Giuliani for President. I'm looking
at Peter Suderman.
You are new here, aren't you?
Episiarch|4.14.08 @ 2:46PM|#
Believe you me, I know far too many libertarians, including
the one who got arrested. She's actually quite a very earnest and
courageous libertarian.
Hmm, so now you know the girl in question, see many arrests every
day, yet still won't tell us what you do or how it is you know the
girl.
Guy Montag|4.14.08 @ 2:46PM|#
Steve has already established that he is not the best
trained pony in the circus.
Pony!
KenK|4.14.08 @ 2:46PM|#
Every Cop is a criminal
The "service" you will get from the cops is the same as you'd get
from Ace Breeding, the angry, painful fucking of your life from a
big, nasty bull.
Guy Montag|4.14.08 @ 2:47PM|#
Hmm, so now you know the girl in question, see many arrests
every day, yet still won't tell us what you do or how it is you
know the girl.
I am betting that he is a jail guard.
Guy Montag|4.14.08 @ 2:48PM|#
Um, just curious, have not seen the video yet. How hot is the
arrested chick?
More importantly, does she know how to weld?
Taktix®|4.14.08 @ 2:49PM|#
Steve Cooked,
Here's my proper grounds (emphasis mine):
Congress shall make no law respecting an
establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise
thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;
or the right of the people peaceably to assemble,
and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
As for these other accusations, I'm starting to catch a whiff of
old troll on you. Dondero, is that you?
|4.14.08 @ 2:49PM|#
She used to work at the Cato Institute, so if you've been to any of that fine institution's events, you'd also know her.
|4.14.08 @ 2:50PM|#
I am betting that he is a jail guard.
I bet Steve works for a social justice-realted non-profit.
Dave W.|4.14.08 @ 2:51PM|#
. . . his mistaken belief that he was arresting her on
proper grounds . . .
According to the blog post, the only charge is "interfering with an
agency function."
Legal point: the "intentional" part of "intentional tort" only
refers to the fact that the arrest must be intentional. It
was.
Question for Cook: assuming that the interfering charge was the
only basis of the arrest, and further assuming that there is clear
audio and video of the incident, then why would it be difficult to
prove that the policeman did not have a good faith mistaken
belief?
|4.14.08 @ 2:51PM|#
http://www.youtube.com/user/freethejefferson1
The videos are there. They even say her name at one point.
Guy Montag|4.14.08 @ 2:58PM|#
Taktix®,
Seems he reads Am. 1 like the Leftists read #2, i.e., 1 only
protects reporters assembled in a house of worship complaining
about the government.
Dave W.|4.14.08 @ 3:02PM|#
Question for Cook: assuming that the interfering charge was
the only basis of the arrest, and further assuming that there is
clear audio and video of the incident, then why would it be
difficult to prove that the policeman did not have a good faith
mistaken belief?
Having seen the video, to try to answer my own question:
1. there isn't good enough video; and
2. arresting officer may have a good faith belief that he was
breaking up a demonstration that had gotten too large.
still be interested to know Cook's thoughts, though.
Fluffy|4.14.08 @ 3:05PM|#
Steve,
There are few if any Giuliani libertarians here. Eric Dondero shows
up every once in a while, and everyone else uses him as a pinata
for fun.
Now, maybe they could turn their attention to, say, Gitmo or
NSA wiretapping or John Yoo torture memos. You know, shit that
really matters.
These are issues that everyone here agitates about. So we can take
a few moments from our busy schedule of being pissed about Gitmo to
being pissed about the symbolic outrage of such an arrest at a
memorial to Jefferson.
Is it your position that the individuals have the right to be
dance on any piece of land they wish any time they wish. Certainly
that doesn't go for roads, does it?
So let's ratchet down the rhetoric for a moment. This is a federal
monument. The federal government in its infinite wisdom through the
park police has various regulations (a permit is required in some
instances) and duly authorized personnel to carry out those
regulations and laws.
Thank you for contributing material to my favorite hobbyhorse,
"Allowing the courts to 'balance' powers and rights will end with
arrests for asking the park police a question at the Jefferson
Memorial."
If federal road building can't be reconciled with the First
Amendment, than the federal government shouldn't be in the business
of building roads. If the practice of building and maintaining
public monuments can't be reconciled with the First Amendment, then
the federal government shouldn't be in the business of building
public monuments. It's pretty simple to me, really.
Next time this will be a tasering. And the pile of evidence
supporting my point will get higher. Incidents like this are
inevitable once you concede that "practical" matters like "permits,
regulations, and authorized personnel" trump the Bill of
Rights.
|4.14.08 @ 3:06PM|#
"The federal government in its infinite wisdom"
ANOTHER Best of H&R. Guy beat me to the first one.
|4.14.08 @ 3:09PM|#
""Aren't these the guys that whacked Vince Foster?"
No. They're just the patsies who fronted the
"investigation"."
Hey, everyone knows Hill whacked Vince; remember the blond hairs in
the boxers?
|4.14.08 @ 3:10PM|#
It's been nice folks! I got to head off to my shift: enforcing my town's local laws. Hopefully I'll get the chance to arrest some libertarians this afternoon. That'd certainly put a spring in my step.
Guy Montag|4.14.08 @ 3:12PM|#
It's been nice folks! I got to head off to my shift:
enforcing my town's local laws. Hopefully I'll get the chance to
arrest some libertarians this afternoon. That'd certainly put a
spring in my step.
HA! The sanitation police rarely get to arrest a libertarian. They
get a lot of hippies and Leftie squatters, but not
libertarians.
|4.14.08 @ 3:14PM|#
I got to head off to my shift: enforcing my town's local
laws.
Awww. What a hero! Thank you for your service to our country!
Bingo|4.14.08 @ 3:21PM|#
Steve is a troll, probably Edward or Dan T.
gmail doesn't allow the creation of email accounts with less than 6
characters in the username.
|4.14.08 @ 3:21PM|#
First, if we want to get really libertarian about
it:
1) gov't shouldn't be in the business of building monuments to
dead presidents;
Irrelevant.
2) it's unlikely Jefferson would've wanted a monument built by
a massive federal government to himself;
Irrelevant.
3) if you want to dance in honor of Jefferson's birthday,
that's super. Put up a picture of the man in your back yard, and
knock yourself out.
That's one option. Doing so in public is another.
As for the whole civil disobedience angle, I'm pretty
unimpressed. First, they may have been violating a requirement that
they have a permit.
They weren't. There were less than 25 people involved. Even a cop
should be able to count that high without having to take his shoes
off.
If not, that was a judgment call by rude Park
Police.
Yeah. Really bad judgment. Also a violation of her civil
rights.
The one person got arrested, she was released a few hours
later. Big deal.
I doubt you would say the same if you spent 5 hours in jail for no
good reason at all, had to go through the time and effort to get
acquitted, and then had to go through the further time and effort
to get it expunged.
And, for you information, "expunged" doesn't mean what you think it
means. The record is still there, still subject to disclosure,
either accidentally or to certain inquiries.
Color me shocked to learn in your 3:10 post that your a cop. Thanks
for confirming all our bad thoughts about such.
Dave W.|4.14.08 @ 3:31PM|#
They weren't. There were less than 25 people involved. Even
a cop should be able to count that high without having to take his
shoes off.
Eh, I think this is where the police win. Looks like it was close
enough to 25 that police get to break the thing up, and then argue
interference with a colorably legit break-up. I don't know that the
police would win a criminal trial against the arrestee, but I think
this is how they stay out of civil trouble here.
And, for you information, "expunged" doesn't mean what you
think it means. The record is still there, still subject to
disclosure, either accidentally or to certain inquiries.
Especially because private parties track these databases, and they
don't expunge anything. I thought that Steve Cook generally made a
lot of good points, and a lot of things that HitnRunners
really need to hear, but he was quite wrong about expungement.
Taktix®|4.14.08 @ 3:39PM|#
I agree that Steve made good points if the question was "How do
you avoid getting arrested like the woman above?"
However, when he implied that it is right to do what happened to
this woman, well, that's when my douche bag alarm went off.
Does anyone smell bacon?
Cody|4.14.08 @ 3:40PM|#
Everyone has a right to know what they've done wrong. Arresting someone for asking "why" is abuse of power, clear and simple.
Guy Montag|4.14.08 @ 3:42PM|#
Everyone has a right to know what they've done wrong.
Arresting someone for asking "why" is abuse of power, clear and
simple.
But didn't she know right away in that case?
[ducks]
|4.14.08 @ 3:51PM|#
I just can't get over ". . .as if the Constitution is the final word on government action". It's supposed to be exactly that. I'll grant that it increasingly isn't the final word, but there's no legal basis for making that remark or for the creeping of government away from its shackles. I'm curious about what, exactly, law enforcement personnel are taught about the Constitution.
Tommy Stinson|4.14.08 @ 3:53PM|#
" In what other job can you swear at your "customers" without
fear of retribution? Seriously, can any of you imagine a scenario
in which you swore at a customer/client and didn't get
fired?"
Punk rock band.
Ying Yang|4.14.08 @ 3:59PM|#
"Actually, you're both his customer and his employer."
Is that not a conflict of interests?
Episiarch|4.14.08 @ 3:59PM|#
I don't know if I'd believe that Steve is actually a cop, or
knows the girl. His posts were just a little too troll-like, a
little too DanT-ish, to be taken without a grain of salt.
Also, the final "admission" that he is a cop seemed more like a
convenient parting shot instead of the real thing. I have a feeling
a real cop wouldn't have been as patient while we peons insulted
him.
|4.14.08 @ 4:00PM|#
Guy,
It is according to California, anyway. Instead of "long-arm
jurisdiction" California has "gorilla-arm jurisdiction", or,
perhaps more properly stated, "Mr. Fantastic-arm jurisdiction".
|4.14.08 @ 4:05PM|#
Also, the final "admission" that he is a cop seemed more
like a convenient parting shot instead of the real thing. I have a
feeling a real cop wouldn't have been as patient while we peons
insulted him.
I'd agree, but I don't think he was as much of an intentional troll
as one of those crazy types who gets all emotional about shit and
then thinks that they can suddenly trump everyone else's comments
by being like "well, I'm black" or whatever.
Bingo|4.14.08 @ 4:09PM|#
Jeez guys, it was Dan T or Edward.
He wrote his email as scook@gmail.com... scook is only 5 characters
long and google doesn't let you register anything less than 6. Only
someone pretending to be someone else would go through the trouble
of entering a realistic but fake email address.
|4.14.08 @ 4:22PM|#
I love you guys, really. Every time I saw something that made me want to respond, one of you "regulars" already responded perfectly. Really, truly and honestly well done.
|4.14.08 @ 4:33PM|#
as if the Constitution is the final word on government
action.
he was just doing his job. If you don't want
to be arrested by the Park Police, don't go to the Jefferson
Memorial.
she, and libertarians everywhere, got an object lesson in how
the government works.
res ipsa loquitur
|4.14.08 @ 4:37PM|#
Pro Lib -
I feel pretty secure in claiming that Dan T. is still around. He
changes aliases a lot, but I've noticed his distinct brand of
shitheaddery on at least a few comments over the last several
months.
Not that I remember enough about them to find them again.
Taktix®|4.14.08 @ 4:55PM|#
res ipsa loquitur
Oh yeah, well: tho grobgar spolkvadi!
See, I can make up words too!
Mad Max|4.14.08 @ 4:57PM|#
A quote from Thomas Jefferson's buddy James Madison:
"It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our
liberties. We hold this prudent jealousy to be the first duty of
citizens and one of the noblest characteristics of the late
Revolution. The freemen of America did not wait till usurped power
had strengthened itself by exercise and entangled the question in
precedents. They saw all the consequences in the principle, and
they avoided the consequences by denying the principle. We revere
this lesson too much ... to forget it."
http://fen.net/quotes/freedom.shtml
|4.14.08 @ 5:05PM|#
To add some circumstantial evidence to the Dan T. = Steve Cook
argument, Dan T. was also from North Carolina, where Steve Cook
seems to have said he's from.
Also, "If you don't want to be arrested by the Park Police, don't
go to the Jefferson Memorial" sounds an awful lot like "if you
don't want to pay taxes, you can always just move to another
country."
Also, Steve Cook had a secretary named Dan T., and Dan T. had a
secretary named Steve Cook.
Never 4get|4.14.08 @ 5:10PM|#
The very point of the situation was that it HAD no meaning
and something shouldn't HAVE to have meaning to be
tolerated.
Well, yes. But whisper it. Balko's here.
If he hears you, he might remember that "Bong Hits 4 Jesus" kid
whose punishment he reveled in because that protest wasn't
"political" - because it wasn't in the form of a sentence - and
realize that this post is damning evidence that he's a "but not for
thee" libertarian.
So shhh.
|4.14.08 @ 5:28PM|#
Bwa?
whose punishment he reveled in because that protest wasn't "political"
Go back and read that post again. Reveling doesn't figure into it.
Radley can of course defend hi|4.14.08 @ 5:28PM|#
but this is what he
actually said, never4get.
I wouldn't call that revelling, and would point out the obvious
that the relationship between a school principal and one of his
students is a hell of lot different than a cop and random
citizen.
Tamara Stenison|4.14.08 @ 6:03PM|#
Very true, Tommy Stinson. In fact, I recall a video of Henry Rollins punching a customer in the head. Now that's service.
|4.14.08 @ 6:26PM|#
I thought that Steve Cook generally made a lot of good
points, and a lot of things that HitnRunners really need to
hear,
Really? I didn't see a single one.
Looks like it was close enough to 25 that police get to break
the thing up, and then argue interference with a colorably legit
break-up.
They don't get to break up anything because they think maybe it
needed a permit. Why can't they ask? Politely? "Pardon me, miss,
any organized gathering of 25 or more needs a permit. Do you know
who organized this? How many people are here?"
You know, act like a human being, not testosterone crazed thug with
tiny-penis syndromw.
|4.14.08 @ 6:37PM|#
I've said it before and I'll say it again. This country is heading towards a police-state. The abuse of power is growing. Granted in baby-steps. Add to that the fact that none of the three branches of the Federal government seems to worry about or try very hard to prevent or to significantly slow-down this abuse.It convinces me that a revolution, and probably a violent one, will be the only way to restore our promised liberties. I've given-up hope that a peaceful revolution is feasable. I weap over our fading liberties
|4.14.08 @ 6:39PM|#
Jefferson probably would have railed against public at his
memorial being illegal at ANY time (let alone on his birthday), but
sadly, it is.
See the current Code of Federal Regulations, Title 36 (Parks,
Forests, and Public Property), Chapter I, Part 7, specifically 7.96
with respect to the Jefferson Memorial.
PDF here:
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/03jul20071500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/julqtr/pdf/36cfr7.96.pdf
The short version is this: Group events of certain specific types
or those that are likely to draw the attention of others require a
permit if the group is numbered larger than 25. If the group is
numbered 25 or less, they are not required to apply for or acquire
said permit, but they MUST meet ALL of the other conditions of
whatever permit they would be applying for.
This group was putting on a public performance (dance) in a group
of 20, which was likely to draw public attention, so it qualifies
as needing to meet the standards of getting a permit for that site,
while not actually getting the physical piece of paper.
Can they meet all of the other conditions for the permit? No.
Permits for public events are not issued for the Jefferson Memorial
except for one specific event: The official annual commemorative
Jefferson birthday ceremony. In other words, the condition is: "Be
that specific event, or you can't get a permit." No other event
will meet the condition.
It's not surprising the group was ordered to disperse, based on the
above. Failing to do (or indicating they would immediately do so)
is probably what resulted in the charge.
Can she beat the charge? If she gets a sympathetic judge, sure. I
wouldn't personally want to bet on that though.
Dave W.|4.14.08 @ 6:40PM|#
Really? I didn't see a single one.
Well, his words are still up there for review. Trust me, this is
how a lot of ppl who aren't libertarian see you guys. However, Cook
missed the most important points of all, which is:
Get better video and audio if you want to complain
later.
|4.14.08 @ 6:41PM|#
Left a word out: Jefferson probably would have railed against public DANCING at his memorial being illegal...
|4.14.08 @ 6:42PM|#
My apologies. In the second to last sentence I should have said, "I've all but given-up hope that a peaceful revolution is feasable."
Fluffy|4.14.08 @ 7:00PM|#
Argentium,
That set of regulations is absurd.
Look, even if you don't accept my usual argument against the
concept of "time, place and manner" restrictions on assembly, I
think that it should be pretty straightforward that the power
to place time, place and manner restrictions is not the power to
destroy, and that a set of permit requirements designed to
make it impossible to actually obtain a permit are automatically
invalid and void.
Hooter_McBoob|4.14.08 @ 8:16PM|#
A couple weeks ago a friend of mine got in a fight at a bar. Me and my buddies step outside the bar, as my friend who was in the fight is taken away in an ambulance. While we're outside the bouncer/owner starts getting into it with a kid in our group who he believed to be underage. The bouncer was flipping out, screaming at my buddy, as cops looked on. I support dissent. I was not about to let an abuse of authority take place. Afterall, what authority does a bouncer have on a public sidewalk? I run up to the bouncer to let him know that he can't demand to see ID at this point, nor should he talk so disrespectfully to an adult. We start cussing. I point at the bouncer. I cop comes up to me and smacks my arm down. I turn to the cop and ask him "who the fuck" he thought he was. Then I proceeded to inform the police officer that he is "just a fucking cop." I then demanded that he either arrest me and my friends or stop abusing his authority and let us go. He gets in my face and says "my authority isn't the only thing about to be abused." At this point another police officer pulls the cop away from me and we all leave. This is how you must interact with cops. Show them who is boss. Let them know that you have rights. The worst case is that they arrest or beat you - a small price to pay, IMO.
Richard|4.14.08 @ 9:01PM|#
I am so sorry that your friends were arrested for trespassing on government property after-hours. It's a shame that we have laws in this country that we have to abide by. If only there was some way we could change that....
Ken|4.14.08 @ 9:18PM|#
The worst case is that they arrest or beat you - a small
price to pay, IMO.
I'm sure Abner Louima feels exactly the same way.
|4.14.08 @ 9:18PM|#
Richard. You don't sound sorry at all. What's up with
that?
Oh, you were trying to make a joke?
Oh.
HAHAHAHAHAHA!
Richard|4.14.08 @ 9:34PM|#
Oh, you were trying to make a joke?
Oh.
HAHAHAHAHAHA!
Granted, it's hard to hear a sarcastic tone when just reading
words. The park has established operating hours which would be from
9:30 am to 11:30 pm. They were there at around midnight? And they
have the nerve to act surprised when the cops show up?
Please, they were trespassing. They broke a law and now they have
to pay for it, plain and simple.
Richard|4.14.08 @ 9:39PM|#
However, I am man enough to admit when I am wrong and in the case of the hours of operation I am wrong (thanks to Cog for pointing that out to me). The park is open twenty-four hours, it's just that the rangers are there until 11:30 pm. In that case, let's go back AND DANCE NAKED!!
Guy Montag|4.14.08 @ 9:42PM|#
What is reason doing for Vladimir Lenin's Birthday, aka, tree hugger Festivus, aka, Earth Day?
|4.14.08 @ 9:45PM|#
These cops are petty tyrants obsession with squelching anything
that they perceive as unorderly or "against the rules".
And nothing will every be done about it. Any supervisor of these
cops would just consider it another annoyance of dealing with "the
public" and send a due diligence memo/email restating whatever
vague regulation this woman is suppose to have violated. I hate to
be a pessimist, but that's what always happens and will happen
again.
Also, naive liberals will claim it would never happen under Clinton
or Obama.
|4.14.08 @ 9:55PM|#
"I am man enough to admit when I am wrong."
Yes, Richard, but are you man enough to dance, dance, dance, at the
Harding Memorial?
We shall see.
Yes.
We shall see.
|4.14.08 @ 10:03PM|#
"The Harding Tomb is a circular monument of white Georgia marble
containing the remains of President and Mrs. Harding.
"The monument, set in ten acres of landscaped grounds, is similar
in appearance to a round Greek temple. The simple Doric features
and spacious surroundings combine to create one of the most
beautiful presidential memorials outside Washington, D. C."
Paul|4.14.08 @ 10:06PM|#
the Memorial is open to the public 24 hours
Ah, there's the problem. I was waiting for the punchline.
"This is public property!!! You can't be in here!!!"
All public property is theft.
Guy Montag|4.14.08 @ 10:08PM|#
So, if the rangers shift ends at 2330, why were they still there
at 2355?
And you guys thought my NSA comment was just a joke.
Lights Out|4.14.08 @ 10:14PM|#
Prissy? No. Weenies? Maybe. Passive and whiney? Most
definitely.
"All the tongues waggle but we just smile
That'll keep the little buggers going for a while...
Such horror, oh such a farce, a little bit of broken glass
You should think yourself lucky that this was done
You'll have something you can whine about for years to come"
NMA - Chinese Whispers
Richard|4.14.08 @ 10:24PM|#
Citizen Nothing: Yes, Richard, but are you
man enough to dance, dance, dance, at the Harding Memorial?
We shall see.
Yes.
We shall see.
Sadly I already know I won't be able to make it up there for that.
So on Nov 2nd I will post a video of me dancing on Youtube. I'll
even include my Youtube url so you guys can remind me.
http://www.youtube.com/clownboy1138
|4.14.08 @ 10:24PM|#
"Warren Gameliel Harding
Playing cards in a smoke-filled room
Winning and losing, filling the time
I just want someone to talk to
To talk to
To talk to
Don't go down to the docks tonight
The cops are nosing around for the site
We moved the booze just before daylight
They won't find it now, it'll be alright
Warren Gameliel Harding
In Alaska running out of days
Leaving the ladies, God moves in strange ways
I just want someone to talk to
To talk to
To talk to"
|4.14.08 @ 10:35PM|#
that's irony, and I bet he's rolling in his grave at the fact that the police either hid or refused to show their badge numbers, and were abusive. I hope her lawyer helps show the ones that did this, that abusing that lil badge will someday come back upon you bigger and worse than what you did.
robc|4.15.08 @ 12:23AM|#
Just need to add this on to everything else:
[begin rant]
Flash CROWD. The term is Flash
CROWD. Not flash mob. Read your fucking
Niven.
[end rant]
I believe the story in which the term was first used is The
Last Days of the Permanent Floating Riot Club.
Billy Beck|4.15.08 @ 1:16AM|#
"If you don't want to be arrested by the Park Police, don't
go to the Jefferson Memorial. "
Can I get that on a T-shirt, you fucking asshole?
Hooter_McBoob|4.15.08 @ 1:21AM|#
:::I hate to be a pessimist, but that's what always happens and
will happen again.::::
It doesn't have to happen. If you stick up for your rights and
fight the abusers of authority tooth and nail, this b.s. will
eventually end.
|4.15.08 @ 3:34AM|#
you know 30 or 40 years ago, this kind of thing would have lead to an uproar ... people would be dancing in the streets, etc. at least some kind of shit would have hit the fan and at the VERY least, we would have heard about it on the news. its just too poetic. but no.
Robert Stacy McCain|4.15.08 @ 5:41AM|#
I am flabbergasted at the number of commenters here -- at
Reason, for crying out loud -- making
The-Bitch-Got-What-She-Deserved arguments.
Let me see if I've got this libertarian thing right:
1. Legalize dope.
2. Criminalize dancing.
That pretty much cover it?
Mad Max|4.15.08 @ 6:12AM|#
"Let me see if I've got this libertarian thing right:
"1. Legalize dope.
"2. Criminalize dancing.
"That pretty much cover it?"
Yes. Unless you want to watch a bunch of stoners try to dance,
while the police stand by helplessly.
Guy Montag|4.15.08 @ 7:00AM|#
chris duncan,
you know 30 or 40 years ago, this kind of thing would have lead
to an uproar ... people would be dancing in the streets, etc. at
least some kind of shit would have hit the fan and at the VERY
least, we would have heard about it on the news. its just too
poetic. but no.
This generation is why we have so maney problems in the world.
|4.15.08 @ 10:32AM|#
This needs to be picked up by the media. (ahahhahahahhahaa.... ahhh... well, it was a thought...)
|4.16.08 @ 11:34AM|#
I don't mean anything particularly political in terms of
comparing the governments, but having just returned from 3.5 weeks
in China one of the top five things that struck me was this:
I saw more police smiling at and interacting friendly, on the job,
with regular civilians, in any single day in a big city in China
than I have seen in *34 years* in Ann Arbor. Absolute truth.
I also saw people arguing with Chinese cops, quite loudly and
aggressively, in ways that would have gotten them tasered in
Chicago or LA, but the cops just remained calm and polite.
We have a problem with our cop culture.
|4.16.08 @ 11:44AM|#
So it's not ok to dance quietly with some friends in a place
open to the public all the time?
Why?
Oops. Did I ask that?
Should I call my lawyer?
We know why. Welcome to russia in the 50's folks.
|4.16.08 @ 12:07PM|#
Never question an American cop, at least. These guys are encouraged to behave like jackbooted thugs.
UsedtheWeb|4.17.08 @ 5:33PM|#
http://www.reason.com/contrib/show/458.html
Brooke Oberwetter is the woman in the picture. There are photos up
on Flickr of the incident.
|4.17.08 @ 5:52PM|#
Argentium:
If I read those regs correctly, there can never be a demonstration
or special event permit that would allow, say, Marion Anderson to
sing on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial, or Martin Luther King to
address a March on Washington from those same steps.
|4.18.08 @ 4:28PM|#
And people wonder why the DC cops don't want it's subjects... er, I mean "citizens"... owning or carrying guns? Heavens forbid that they be able to fight back!
|4.19.08 @ 2:00AM|#
"If you don't want to be arrested by the Park Police, don't go
to the Jefferson Memorial"
So, if I don't want to be arrested by any police, I shouldn't go
anywhere at all?
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