Reason Magazine
- reason.com
- reason.tv
- reason.org
- Donate
- Site Search:
Reason on Facebook
Reason on Twitter
Reason on YouTube
Reason RSSGet Reason E-mail Updates!
Manage your Reason e-mail list subscriptionsadvertisements
Michael Young Handled the Weekend Political Thread...
...right here. The salon on Barack Obama and small town American vileness can continue there. Why didn't I have anything to say on the story on Friday? I was speeding through rural Pennsylvania, catching Ron Paul's final campaign appearances before the Pennsylvania primary for a story that will appear on Monday. That's me standing to the far right of the stage, craning my neck, in this photo.
Do I have anything to add to what Michael wrote? Agreement, and some additions.
- One conservative take on the story is that Obama is finally revealing his character, and that you can draw a line straight from his father to Jeremiah Wright to attacking small town white America. Let's assume that's true. We only found this out because someone taped a closed-door fundraiser. So why do we cover anything but closed-door fundraisers? The rest—speeches, debates, long sit-down interviews—obviously isn't that illuminating.
- If this is how Obama views the effects of lost manufacturing jobs, his anti-free trade campaigning in the rust belt is unforgiveable. And I'm usually inclined to forgive him for stuff like this.
- I have to go and agree with Joe Klein:
This Obama controversy... is the sort of thing we journalists blow up into massive gas, mostly because we really don't want to get down in the weeds about the things we need to get down in the weeds about...like whether trade deals really are so bad, especially with the weak dollar (I don't think so) and whether we need a pause in the withdrawal schedule in Iraq (I don't think so).
But you can't blame the media for this. Obama could have been honest to Ohioans about whether he'd personally dismantle factories in Honduras and ship them back to Youngstown for reassembling. Hillary Clinton could stop pretending she doesn't agree with Obama on this Thomas Frankian idea that getting-by small town voters are being snookered into voting Republican over Gods, Guns and Gays. Every Democratic power broker thinks this. Clinton looks sillier in populist garb than Dukakis looked in the tank.
Robert Fripp's combo gets the Politics 'n' Prog trophy this
week.
|4.13.08 @ 2:38AM|#
Huh? That's King Crimson: it doesn't get much proggier than
that.
N.B. Tony Levin is clearly the best prog bassist, G. Lee
notwithstanding.
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 7:54AM|#
Stop the presses!!!
Mrs. Clinton, in response to Mr. Obama, says her grandpa taught her
how to shoot as a little girl!!! Sounds like this one has Bosnia
potential!!!
She was also filmed banging back shots of Crown Royal at a Crown
Point, IN fundraiser.
Dillenger used a fake gun to break out of the Crown Point jail. How
long before we have a Clinton, Dillinger connection?
lefty|4.13.08 @ 7:57AM|#
Bravo bravo bravo
King Crimson. Finally some real prog.
But where the fuck is Keith Emerson?
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 7:58AM|#
Wondering when Mr. & Mrs. Obama will tapp into the Alecia Keys theory of certain music being government sponsored to kill black people?
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 8:01AM|#
Wondering when Mr. & Mrs. Obama will tapp into the Alecia
Keys theory of certain music being government sponsored to kill
Black people?
Fixed.
Fluffy|4.13.08 @ 8:35AM|#
I wonder when John McCain will shit on his years of military
service and his own good name by helping facilitate the passage of
a bill that immunizes torturers and war criminals, abrogates
various treaty obligations, and places the definition of torture
wholly in the hands of the executive?
Oh wait he already did that.
I wonder when John McCain will openly declare his hatred of
capitalism, free-market economics, everyone who works in the
private sector, and any aspect of life that does not deal with
military and government service?
Oh wait he already did that.
Fluffy|4.13.08 @ 8:45AM|#
Fox News says that billions of dollars were stolen from the
taxpayers in Iraq.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,129489,00.html
Even as tens of thousands of new combat veterans were being created
by Bush's Iraq war, men who would need medical care, psychological
services, transition assistance, etc., Bush was proposing CUTS to
veterans' spending.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58762-2004May26.html
Can someone direct me to footage of the time that McCain stood on
the floor of the Senate sternly demanding that the people who stole
from the taxpayers, and from our soldiers in Iraq, be found and
brought to justice? Or the time he demanded hearings?
Or maybe the time he stood up and denounced the President for the
way he has chosen to use up our military personnel and then throw
them away? Maybe a time when he highlighted some veteran who was
denied a disability pension for his war injuries, or who was turned
away when he requested psychological counseling?
Oh wait no one can do that because McCain never did any of that,
because he doesn't give a rat's ass about the taxpayers, our
troops, or veterans, compared to how much he cares about
cheerleading for George Bush.
|4.13.08 @ 8:56AM|#
Another big morning@ Starbucks, Guy? You must not have a date for church this week.
Fluffy|4.13.08 @ 9:04AM|#
That's pretty funny, Guy.
You know what you did at 7:58 and 8:01?
Posted rhetorical questions where you made it clear that you
thought it reasonable for us to assume that because one black
person thought something stupid, it meant that Obama might think
it, too.
Because, after all, all black people think the same things, and any
black person running for office has to properly account to you for
the thoughts and statements of all black people, everywhere.
Tell me, since Barack Obama has to answer for the thoughts of
Alicia Keys, has John McCain answered for the thoughts of Noam
Chomsky yet? After all, McCain and Chomsky are both white. They
must think the same things, because they're both white. Or at
least, McCain should realize that he has to assure us that he
doesn't share the odd beliefs of any stray white person we can dig
up, and he should therefore make a statement, or perhaps address
the issue during a press conclave. Right?
Fluffy|4.13.08 @ 9:11AM|#
OK Guy, let's assume your earlier double post was a joke.
What would make it funny? Explain the joke to me.
There's no way to explain the joke without including some variant
of "Well, they're both black, so...."
tarran|4.13.08 @ 9:22AM|#
Fluffy,
Rule #1 of arguing politics with Guy Montagh is don't even
bother.
The guy has a brain, but he's too lazy to use it. so mostlyu you
get sneering circular arguments that lead nowhere.
I think some hippie touched him in a bad place when he was a kid
and he never got over it.
Episiarch|4.13.08 @ 9:36AM|#
Fluffy, I like your seething white-hot hatred of McCain. It goes
nicely with mine.
It's irrelevant whether Obama fucked up this time. It seems that he
may have a penchant for fucking up in interestingly subtle ways. If
he wins the nom, we'll see. I hope so--McCain is a loose cannon, so
having dueling gaffe-masters running would be pretty great. Every
day a new headline.
Elemenope|4.13.08 @ 9:36AM|#
Hillary Clinton could stop pretending she doesn't agree with
Obama on this Thomas Frankian idea that getting-by small town
voters are being snookered into voting Republican over Gods, Guns
and Gays. Every Democratic power broker thinks this.
No, no, NO! Democrats don't think that mid-western conservative
voters are somehow "snookered" into voting about God, Guns, and
Gays.
They believe, rather, that because these mid-western conservative
voters have lost hope of influencing those decisions that (they
believe) inflict emotional devastation upon them, that *all they
have left* to affect is social issues; that's all they feel they
still have influence over.
That's a very different argument.
|4.13.08 @ 9:38AM|#
I hear Pope Benedict will grace us with his presence this week. Maybe the God/Guns/Gays crowd will forget their bitterness and return to their full-time shallowness for a while.
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 10:11AM|#
Fluffy,
I have already seen here that there is no explaining anything to
you, so pointing out that the Keys conspiracy theory goes right
along with what Sen. Obama's preacher of over 20 years was
preaching every time he took the pulpit is a waste of time.
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 10:23AM|#
1970 440 6-Pack Cuda for only $81,000 on "Bidding Wars"? Wow,
seems there might be something to this "tanking economy" stuff the
MSM is making up talking about.
Fluffy|4.13.08 @ 10:28AM|#
I have already seen here that there is no explaining
anything to you, so pointing out that the Keys conspiracy theory
goes right along with what Sen. Obama's preacher of over 20 years
was preaching every time he took the pulpit is a waste of
time.
Right, but the thing that Keys has in common with Wright that makes
your association with her humorous is...what?
It is that she is black.
Therefore, my assertion that you automatically associate Keys'
nutty statement with Obama [via Wright, if that makes you happy]
because of the fact that she's black is...true.
Your defense here appears to be "Yeah, but it's only common sense
to associate all black people and everything they say" and that
really isn't a defense of what I posted, but an affirmation.
|4.13.08 @ 10:31AM|#
Elemenope is exactly right. This is why I'm having a hard time understanding any real outrage about this (politically driven faux outrage I get). What did Obama say that's in any way controversial? My wife is from small town Pennsylvania. Those aren't happy places by and large. Does anyone really want to argue with that? How many Reason readers are ready to move to Blossburg, PA? I travel a lot too, and there's no question in my mind that central PA and upstate NY are some of the most miserable unhappy parts of the US. The smart kids all leave as soon as they graduate high school, there's very little economic opportunity, and the weather sucks. The people in these towns do feel left behind and resentful. "Bitter" may be too strong, but there's no question that there's a lot of resentment of "elites" in those towns and that resentment does drive people to place more emphasis on social issues than people in more prosperous communities might. The big loser in the latest fake Obama scandal, once again, seems to be Clinton not Obama. She keeps attacking Obama from the right - killing her credibility with her own base and doing nothing to improve her standing with Democrats.
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 10:35AM|#
Yea, I knew it was useless to point out related wacky concepts
and the only thing you can think of is that some of the people
involved are Black.
BTW, if you are so concerned about this perhaps you will start
capitalizing that word when used for a race.
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 10:38AM|#
vanya,
So Roadhouse really was a documentry and not just a silly
movie?
Fluffy|4.13.08 @ 11:00AM|#
Yea, I knew it was useless to point out related wacky
concepts and the only thing you can think of is that some of the
people involved are Black.
Yup, that was what you did.
It's just a coincidence that Keys is black. That's not what you
meant at all.
I'm sure you also joke about whether Obama agrees with Fred Phelps
and Alex Jones. After all, you're just associating wacky concepts.
It has nothing to do with race at all.
Sorry, Guy. My bad. I had judged it all wrong.
Wondering when Mr. & Mrs. Obama will tapp into the John
Birch theory of water flouridation being government sponsored to
allow future introduction of mindcontrol substances into the water
of white people?
See? I'm down with the program now.
BTW, if you are so concerned about this perhaps you will start
capitalizing that word when used for a race.
No such usage rule exists, Guy.
Actually, the opposite is true. The reflexive use of capitals to
talk about White people and Black people is pretty much a "World
Church of the Creator" style usage.
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 11:10AM|#
Breaking news: On the coast of Lake Michigan, in the 'gun-free
zone' of Chicago, students at the University of Chicago are asked
to stay off all three campuses on Friday, 14 April, after a
"threatening note" was left warning of violence.
According to news reports, 14 April is the anneversary of the
Virginia Tech shootings. If you recall, the VA Tech shooter was an
English major, something they have no shortage of in and around the
UC campus.
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 11:11AM|#
Correction: Monday is 14 April, must have misheard the day of the week.
SIV|4.13.08 @ 11:14AM|#
·Black is sometimes capitalized in its racial sense,
especially in the African-American press, though the lowercase form
is still widely used by authors of all races.
The Right Wing controls the MSM and the World Church of the Creator
controls the African American press?
robc|4.13.08 @ 11:17AM|#
The smart kids all leave as soon as they graduate high
school, there's very little economic opportunity
It appears there is plenty of economic opportunity. And the smart
kids found it.
The people in these towns do feel left behind and
resentful.
Did the smart kids cut off their feet on the way out of town? Even
if so, greyhound is cheap.
Is this libertarianism?|4.13.08 @ 11:20AM|#
Has anybody seen this?
http://www.takimag.com/site/article/who_is_matt_welch/
From Reason's editor...
I'm a liberal. I take liberalism to mean a belief in policy
geared toward easing poverty, extending rights to every walking
human who hasn't utterly forfeited them, getting the government out
of the morality business, regulating markets judiciously, ensuring
the pervasive yet hopefully efficient delivery of non-market goods
such as education, health care and national defense, and otherwise
having the sense to let the private sector handle private concerns.
What makes me not "liberal" in the way that people who call
themselves 'progressives' are seen as "liberal," is that I don't
think the U.S. is the primary fount of global wickedness, I am
heartily in favor of the war against Al-Qaeda,"
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 11:25AM|#
But you can't blame the media for this. Obama could have
been honest to Ohioans about whether he'd personally dismantle
factories in Honduras and ship them back to Youngstown for
reassembling.
Wow, this is a bigger project than I was lead to believe. I thought
Sen. Obama just had a list of jobs and who they belonged to so when
he became President he could just pass them out to the people they
were stolen from. Actually moving the stolen factories back to PA
is a tall order. Perhaps if he came up with a catchy name, like the
Philly Project, or maybe begin it with an experiment, it would
catch on a little better.
|4.13.08 @ 11:27AM|#
I think this song had a big influence on Obama.
This says it all, and so well...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHmUsoqi8Pk
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 11:30AM|#
If this Matt Welch quote is accurate:
. . . I don't think the U.S. is the primary fount of global wickedness, I am heartily in favor of the war against Al-Qaeda . . .
Seems that Matt is on my side, but I think we disagree on that
little issue of discomfort being 'torture', oh and on using the
Atomic Bomb against Japan.
Mike C|4.13.08 @ 11:42AM|#
vanya,
Totally agree with you. I am from metro Detroit and I can tell you
that the rust belt bitterness is very present in MI. Many of my
friends who have no hope of a good job in their home state have
been reduced to one issue voters. I know several people who voted
for the anti gay marriage amendment (which passed) but did not fill
out anything else on that ballot. The way one of them put it: the
dems and republicans have fucked us over for the past 20 years, it
doesn't matter who is in power, but at least with this issue I can
prevent those gays from getting more rights.
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 11:49AM|#
DD,
Shhh! He is on a roll showing us how smart he is about putting
people into his little racist boxes. Since her dad is Black, then
she and all who follow in her bloodline will be Black too and any
comment about her views must be tied to this fact, in the world
according to Fuffy.
|4.13.08 @ 11:56AM|#
Many of my friends who have no hope of a good job in their
home state have been reduced to one issue voters.
Poor, helpless things! Won't somebody save them?
I've got it! The government should nationalize the automobile
industry, and hire them all for a million dollars per annum, to
stand around talking about their boats, and how drunk they got
while they were "fishing."
And every so often, they can cross-thread a brake caliper bolt onto
a passing car.
BakedPenguin|4.13.08 @ 11:57AM|#
DoubleDutch, Norah Jones is .5 WASP / .5 South Asian (she's the daughter of Ravi Shankar). Keys is .5 WASP / .5 Jamaican.
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 11:58AM|#
Speaking of the attitudes around Lake Michigan, in the 1960s and
early 1970s we used to visit relatives in the Cedar Lake/Crown
Point, IN area. Not sure if I met a higher concentrated collection
of racist folks in my life, with a heavy mix of what I later
identified as pathalogical Burchite syndrome.
Second place was Cook County, IL, where we were living at the
time.
Was quite relieved when we moved to Knoxville, TN and we got a
break from that nonsense. Added bonus: I go to start meeting and
hanging out with people from all over the world while in
Knoxville.
I wonder when the the DC area will stop being so self segregated
and a lot more integrated, like things were back home.
|4.13.08 @ 12:04PM|#
We only found this out because someone taped a closed-door
fundraiser.
And what may we deduce from this? Either Obama is a complete idiot,
because he should know, by now, that there is no such thing as a
"closed door, off the record" event, or he made this statement with
the expectation that it would be widely circulate, because he
believed (correctly or not) it would have more good than bad
effect.
Whatever else he is, I'm assuming he's not an idiot.
MK2|4.13.08 @ 12:04PM|#
Anybody who is still following Ron Paul around at this point doesn't deserve to be taken seriously on anything.
Fluffy|4.13.08 @ 12:04PM|#
Guy Montag, you are an even more dishonest and disreputable cunt
than Lonewacko.
So you tell a racist joke, and now you're going to try to weasel
out of it by claiming it's not really a racist joke, because Alicia
Keys and Barack Obama are actually both of mixed race?
You pathetic racist fuck. I think you should change your name to
SecondWacko. Why don't you take your racist,
John-McCain-dick-sucking self over to FreeRepublic? You'd fit in
better there.
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 12:08PM|#
Fluffy, there was nothing racist about it other than in your
imagenation. As all can see, your tortured emotional response is
nothing more than an attempt at distraction from your own
bigotry.
Now run along, I am applying the joe rule to you.
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 12:09PM|#
MK2, I can almost agree with you on that one, but Dave is a good writer to give us the postmortum on that traveling circus.
TallDave|4.13.08 @ 12:11PM|#
I was speeding through rural Pennsylvania
Careful, David, I hear there's a lot of gun-clutching bitterness
out there.
There's an odd parallel here with Wright's bitter grasping at
racist government AIDS conspiracies. Obama gave pretty much the
same explanation there, too -- not enough socialism.
The era of big government is here, and it shall save us all!
alan|4.13.08 @ 12:16PM|#
50cent: So, why you don't like my new album?
His FBI Handler: In this lyric here, you go talk with the Crip who
had been saying shit about you behind your back.
50cent: So?
His FBI Handler: We don't pay you to rap about negotiating, we pay
to rap about capping somebody's ass. Got to keep the gangs hustling
and flowing or we G-Men are out on our asses. You don't
know what it is like in the 'burbs, man. Mortgages, putting kids
through college.
Fiddy: Okay, I hear you. I'll put some more violence into it. Hell
of a way to pay off
that Masters in English.
TallDave|4.13.08 @ 12:17PM|#
Fox News says that billions of dollars were stolen from the
taxpayers in Iraq.
Actually, what it says is that auditors can't trace it, not that
anyone stole it. Imagine that, we're missing receipts in a war
zone. Shocking. Hey, maybe they're under that RPG over there.
Bush was proposing CUTS to veterans' spending
A smaller increase is not a cut.
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 12:19PM|#
Dave Weigel,
Wait! You were speeding? Did you have a rental car or was it that
Ford you own? If the latter, be careful, that two-toned paint job
is not 2 paint colors, one is paint and the other is rust.
Friends don't let friends drive Fords.
|4.13.08 @ 12:24PM|#
Imagine that, we're missing receipts in a war
zone.
Ok, time-out on the field.
It has been five years. Five. And over a trillion dollars, and
you're still using the "Fog and Chaos of War" excuse for fraud,
waste and abuse?
So is it so bad over there that accountability goes out the window,
or is it so good and this is a big deal?
MK2|4.13.08 @ 12:25PM|#
We on the left feel superior to you right-wing Reaganite morons for one very good reason:WE ARE SUPERIOR. We're smarter, better educated, and far more sophisticated.
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 12:25PM|#
TallDave,
Frequently the "cuts" in Veteran's spending that are reported are
the result of programs being de-funded for not spending their
allocation several years in a row, or when the spending
requirements are not as large as before. Even if the funds are
reprogrammed into other areas, a "cut" is reported.
This, in addition to what you pointed out, of course.
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 12:29PM|#
A_R,
It has been five years. Five. And over a trillion dollars, and
you're still using the "Fog and Chaos of War" excuse for fraud,
waste and abuse?
Not speaking for him, but I would characterize it as bad accounting
practices. Seems there is still a lot of that "cut through the red
tape" attitude going around, which as we all know, means dropping
various accounting procedures. There are probably piles of hand
reciepts that have never been entered into an automated system, but
the audits are being conducted with the automated systems, and
similar bad practices.
|4.13.08 @ 12:30PM|#
This just in, from an unimpeachable source:
We on the left feel superior to you right-wing Reaganite morons
for one very good reason:WE ARE SUPERIOR. We're smarter, better
educated, and far more sophisticated.
|4.13.08 @ 12:31PM|#
Guy,
If waterboarding isn't torture, don't you think we owe the Japanese
an apology for charging their soldiers for War Crimes when they
waterboarded our men?
Kolohe|4.13.08 @ 12:32PM|#
Even as tens of thousands of new combat veterans were being
created by Bush's Iraq war, men who would need medical care,
psychological services, transition assistance, etc., Bush was
proposing CUTS to veterans' spending.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58762-2004May26.html
Um, this was an internal (i.e. White House budget office level)
memo made in Feb '04, leaked in May '04 (you know before the *last*
election) that proposed broad cuts in just about everything
discretionary in FY 06 (Oct '05 - Sep '06), as in the year ahead of
what they were actually working on. The veteran's affairs budget
was a cut of $910 million out of $29.1 billion (3%). From the
perspective of Feb '04, before we realized we had nothing like a
plan for the first 2 years in Iraq, believing in Feb '04 that we
would be producing *fewer* combat veterans by Oct '05 was not a
ridiculous judgment. Plus, demographically, most of the ww2 and
korean guys are no longer with us, and we are starting to pare down
the vietnam generation. And last since it was a cut to the entire
dept, possibly some overhead would be cut, not benefits (ok, I
can't say the last one and keep a straight face).
But seriously, that 2nd article @8:45 in no way knocks McCain.
Nonetheless, I concede I probably would not find youtube for your
questions, would I care to look.
TallDave|4.13.08 @ 12:37PM|#
It has been five years. Five. And over a trillion dollars,
and you're still using the "Fog and Chaos of War" excuse for fraud,
waste and abuse?
No, this is CPA money. The CPA was dissolved on June 28, 2004. This
is from four years ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_Provisional_Authority
Kolohe|4.13.08 @ 12:38PM|#
I hear Pope Benedict will grace us with his presence this
week. Maybe the God/Guns/Gays crowd will forget their bitterness
and return to their full-time shallowness for a while.
Slightly more Papists(TM) are still Democrats, even if only count
the white (i.e. non-Hispanic) ones. (There was a brief time right
after 9/11 where is was slightly the other way)
|4.13.08 @ 12:38PM|#
Guy, I thought the exact same thing when The Hildebest said she
went hunting as a little girl--Bosnia story.
As you said, it was probably with a $20 bill at Kroger. It makes me
cringe that this woman, whose husband's administration gave us the
Scary Looking Weapons Ban is trying to be some kind of Second
Amendment hero.
I also love it (sarcasm) when pols think the purpose of the Second
is to gaurantee my right to hunt.
|4.13.08 @ 12:40PM|#
Guy -
I don't doubt some error, but I don't believe for a second that
there isn't quite a bit of fraud occurring:
Remember when
This whole thing broke out?
I hate that because all of the sudden DCMA had 2000 auditors on
their way. Boo.
Or, apparently, we're just handing out money for
old-ass weaponry
|4.13.08 @ 12:40PM|#
As for the war money, its probably going to Al-Malaki's Swiss bank account a la Arafat.
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 12:40PM|#
Mo, or is that Eisenstein?
Waterboarding is not the Water Cure, this has been pointed out here
to you and others who bring it up for months.
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 12:44PM|#
A_R,
I don't doubt some error, but I don't believe for a second that
there isn't quite a bit of fraud occurring:
I don't doubt that a bit either. There has already been a multiple
suicide case involving an Army Major, Contract Officer, and his
spouse, in the largest Contracting Officer fraud/misappropriation
case in the history of the USA. That one began last year. Makes
Bushrod Johnson look like small beans.
TallDave|4.13.08 @ 12:46PM|#
I think we'd have to stop waterboarding our own soldiers in training first.
Michael Ejercito|4.13.08 @ 12:46PM|#
The whole interrogation thing could be resolved if we shipped terrorists to Israel for interrogation.
|4.13.08 @ 12:46PM|#
Guy,
"They laid me out on a stretcher and strapped me on. The stretcher
was then stood on end with my head almost touching the floor and my
feet in the air. . . . They then began pouring water over my face
and at times it was almost impossible for me to breathe without
sucking in water."
Sounds exactly like what the CIA did.
|4.13.08 @ 12:49PM|#
Guy -
Heh, follow my first link! I wasn't actually in Baghdad when MAJ
Davis killed herself, but I was there for when DCMA was flying in
some gargantuan amount of auditors in response.
|4.13.08 @ 12:50PM|#
TallDave,
We only do it in training to our soldiers (not all of them, just
special ops) precisely because they may be tortured by the enemy.
It's even more likely to be used against them now that it's well
known that we do it.
|4.13.08 @ 12:50PM|#
I think we'd have to stop waterboarding our own soldiers in
training first.
Hmm, yes...there's no difference at all if you volunteer for the
training as opposed to having it forced on you.
Are you one of the assholes who calls rape "surprise sex" too?
|4.13.08 @ 12:50PM|#
wish that you had put the video of "Sheltering Sky" that's on their concert DVD instead of the tune that you used. still King Crimson is always a welcome sight.
Michael Ejercito|4.13.08 @ 12:51PM|#
Sounds exactly like what the CIA did.
So then if the CIA did this in Los Angeles, then the LAPD can
arrest the offending agents?
Michael Ejercito|4.13.08 @ 12:52PM|#
It's even more likely to be used against them now that it's well known that we do it.
Used against them by whom ?
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 12:53PM|#
Mo,
My Eisenstein suspicion is confirmed and I don't talk to guys who
use two hands to bowl.
A_R,
Follow links? PLEASE! I came here from Slashdot ;)
TallDave|4.13.08 @ 12:55PM|#
Hmm, yes...there's no difference at all if you volunteer for
the training as opposed to having it forced on you.
So, it's okay to "torture" an innocent U.S. soldier, as long as
they "volunteered" for it (they get kicked out of the program if
they refuse), but it's not okay for three senior AQ terrorists that
have knowledge of plots to kill Americans? Just want to be clear on
this.
Neil|4.13.08 @ 12:56PM|#
A few minutes of discomfort for some scumbag terrorist is
nothing if it can save American lives.
If waterboarding is torture so is basic training!
|4.13.08 @ 12:56PM|#
So then if the CIA did this in Los Angeles, then the LAPD
can arrest the offending agents?
We would hope that the other two branches of the Federal Government
might have something to say about failure to apply due
process.
Or, you know, the United States being better than that and all
might be incentive enough for *us* to put a stop to it.
In case you missed it, a SERE Instructor said Waterboarding is
Torture
So, it's okay to "torture" an innocent U.S. soldier, as long as
they "volunteered" for it (they get kicked out of the program if
they refuse)
Do you even know what that "program" is, or are you just cribbing
from The Corner and Glenn Beck?
|4.13.08 @ 12:58PM|#
Used against them by whom?
Iraqi militants, Afghan fighters, heck maybe even the N. Koreans or
Iranians. It's not like we can denounce it, call it torture or call
for war crimes tribunals under the Geneva Conventions. Especially
since our special ops guys aren't always uniformed.
|4.13.08 @ 12:59PM|#
Anywho, for your question, TallDave: You don't see a substantiative difference between volunteering to say, be whipped 'cause you're into that sort of thing and me just running up and whacking you out of the blue with a cat o' nine tails?
Neil|4.13.08 @ 12:59PM|#
"Iraqi militants, Afghan fighters, heck maybe even the N.
Koreans or Iranians. It's not like we can denounce it, call it
torture or call for war crimes tribunals under the Geneva
Conventions. Especially since our special ops guys aren't always
uniformed."
Hahaha like they care about international law anyway!
TallDave|4.13.08 @ 12:59PM|#
In case you missed it, a SERE Instructor said Waterboarding
is Torture
Nance also misstated how it actually works, according to other
SEALs.
Mike's secondary specialty in the SEAL force is as an advanced
combat medic. Without getting into specifics on his experiences,
Mike strongly disputes Nance's exaggerations of waterboarding.
There is a word for people who have "pint after pint of water"
filling their lungs: dead. "In fact," according to Mike, "they
would be very, very dead. By definition, anyone who has drowned is
in fact dead. A large percentage of true drownings do not involve
ANY water entering the lungs because the epiglottis closes off the
air passages as water enters the throat. People who die immediately
from being immersed in water actually die of suffocation, not water
entering their lungs. Not only that, many people who survive a
near-drowning who do have even small amounts of water that slip by
the epiglottis and enter their lungs can die later of fluid shifts
and pneumonia. I can assure you that we do not use any technique
that involves true suffocation or aspiration of water into the
lungs. One cannot get questions to answers from people who
suffocate or have water fill their lungs in any interrogation
technique, which would render that technique more than a little
self-defeating. Dead men tell no tales -- and also make rather poor
soldiers."
Christopher Morton|4.13.08 @ 12:59PM|#
We could interrogate them with pinking shears and then feed
them
through a wood chipper.
No harm, no foul.
|4.13.08 @ 1:00PM|#
If waterboarding is torture so is basic training!
Once you're done dick-swinging, maybe I should ask if you've
actually been through either event?
Michael Ejercito|4.13.08 @ 1:00PM|#
Iraqi militants, Afghan fighters, heck maybe even the N. Koreans or Iranians. It's not like we can denounce it, call it torture or call for war crimes tribunals under the Geneva Conventions.
What do you suppose that they would do to American spies that they
capture?
TallDave|4.13.08 @ 1:01PM|#
You don't see a substantiative difference between
volunteering to say, be whipped 'cause you're into that sort of
thing and me just running up and whacking you out of the blue with
a cat o' nine tails?
I didn't realize our soldiers were just S&M freaks, or that
senior Al Qaeda people were just picked up and interrogated "out of
the blue" for no good reason.
I'm learning a lot here today!
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 1:02PM|#
A_R,
During the last Democrat presidential primary campaigns, a retired
Army General and candidate was reciting points from the Communist
Manifesto and calling them founding values of our country. Does
that make it so? BTW, I think he went to that vocational school in
New York.
Neil|4.13.08 @ 1:04PM|#
Hey Ayn Randian, when we capture Al Qaeda thugs do you want them
to be able to say "Hey you can't do anything to us, you're papers
say you can't torture us! Haha!"
Or do you want the interrigator to be able to say "Fuck our papers,
we're going to get information from you anyway we can to save
American lives!"
Which is better to you?
|4.13.08 @ 1:04PM|#
I didn't realize our soldiers were just S&M
freaks
It was an analogy. If you're going to persist in being an asshole,
we can consider this conversation over.
|4.13.08 @ 1:07PM|#
Hey Neil, recommend you familiarize yourself with
the fallacies of "Loaded Questions" and "False Dichotomies". And
given that you're not actually here to learn anything or engage in
discussion (you just want to win childish "Debating Points" and
feel all Mommy-Loves-Me), I'm not going to sit here and unpack all
that crap you just asked me.
Figure out how to ask a real question and we'll go from there. I'll
start:
What do you think of senior intelligence officials saying that
waterboarding is ineffective because people will say anything to
make it stop?
Orange Line Special|4.13.08 @ 1:08PM|#
1. Clearly, Bob Barr doesn't
want to be president. If he did, he'd modify his policies to
match what most Americans want and what they aren't getting from
the major candidates. In the real world (not the fantasy world),
there's very little to differentiate him from his opponents, and
he's almost the same as McCain where McCain is most
vulnerable.
2. Obama said
something stupid, but the really stupid parts are the ones no
one else is covering.
3. Need a laugh? AmandaMarcotte is being purged:
lonewacko.com/blog/archives/007627.html
4.
Twirl, twirl, twirl the prog away.
TallDave|4.13.08 @ 1:08PM|#
It was an analogy.
A very poor analogy, as I pointed out.
Our soldiers volunteered to serve their country. Al Qaeda
lieutenants volunteered to be terrorist leaders. It's an odd sort
of morality that says the first choice makes waterboarding them OK
and the second doesn't.
Neil|4.13.08 @ 1:10PM|#
"What do you think of senior intelligence officials saying that
waterboarding is ineffective because people will say anything to
make it stop?"
The point IS to make them say anything. Better to get them to say
SOMETHING that might be true rather than not say anything at all
and laugh at us in comfort.
Why do you care about Khalid Sheikh Muhammad's comfort so much
AR?
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 1:10PM|#
Is it going to be another two weeks before we hear from Mrs. Clinton about going shooting with her grandpa? If she is just ripping off that Gov. Romney story I am going to be so pissed! She needs to top the Bosnia story. Well, on the outside chance that this story is true, then she needs to get the details out quick before some 'blogger blows it up into another big deal, hehehe.
|4.13.08 @ 1:12PM|#
Michael,
I don't know about you, but I don't want to be held to the same
moral standards as our enemies. If we don't hold ourselves to
higher standard of morality than people who oppress their women,
then we're just rooting for flags.
Guy,
Ok, douche then explain to me the substansive difference between
these two.
Today: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and
head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the
prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag
reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost
instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.
WWII: They laid me out on a stretcher and strapped me on. The
stretcher was then stood on end with my head almost touching the
floor and my feet in the air. . . . They then began pouring water
over my face and at times it was almost impossible for me to
breathe without sucking in water.
Is cellophane the fine line between torture and discomfort?
|4.13.08 @ 1:13PM|#
well, for all the people who claim to be enamored with "the
leaders on the ground":
Defense Intelligence Agency Director says Waterboarding is
Inhumane
A very poor analogy, as I pointed out.
No, it isn't. You're just too dumb (or willfully obtuse) to figure
it out. It's OK; I'll do it for you.
Our soldiers volunteered to serve their country. Al Qaeda
lieutenants volunteered to be terrorist leaders. It's an odd sort
of morality that says the first choice makes waterboarding them OK
and the second doesn't.
Did you get to figuring out what program it is that waterboards
Soldiers? Did you figure out that those Soldiers volunteer to be
waterboarded, whereas the people who may or may not be AQ didn't at
all?
You're also assuming that everybody we waterboard (or have in the
past) was AQ. That's a bold assertion with no proof.
|4.13.08 @ 1:15PM|#
Why do you care about Khalid Sheikh Muhammad's comfort so
much AR?
Did you look up loaded question yet, Neil?
Learn to ask a real question and we'll have a real discussion. Like
this one:
Do you believe that the information garnered from torture is worth
trading in a very powerful propaganda tool, that is, that the US is
a beacon for freedom, justice and liberty?
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 1:16PM|#
A_R,
The facts, as we know them, from the same places that we know that
waterboarding was conducted on a total of THREE terrorists, is that
it provided actionable intelligence in all three cases.
You are really upset with the intel guys batting 1.000 on something
that important?
This whole issue is like, as I have said before, a bunch of
not-first-born-children whining "he's looking at me" to mom.
Neil|4.13.08 @ 1:17PM|#
AR they're going to hate use as long as we are alive. Even if
we're lovey-dovey with them they're still going to hate us and want
us DEAD.
Why don't you look up the Munich Conference and appeasement?
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 1:21PM|#
I suspect this whole shift in interrigation techniques is a plot by people who own milk and cookie stocks.
|4.13.08 @ 1:21PM|#
Guy - torturing three people is three too many. It's not worth
our integrity.
Why don't you look up the Munich Conference and
appeasement?
You're saying if we don't waterboard suspects, we're going to lost
the Sudetenland?
WTF?
AR they're going to hate use as long as we are
alive.
Who's they? How do you go about proving who "they" is? And should
you be able to torture anybody whom you SUSPECT is a "they"?
|4.13.08 @ 1:22PM|#
The facts, as we know them, from the same places that we
know that waterboarding was conducted on a total of THREE
terrorists, is that it provided actionable intelligence in all
three cases.
You are really upset with the intel guys batting 1.000 on something
that important?
That's hearsay. Do you really think they're telling the whole
story? If you do, I have a bridge to sell you.
When was the last time our intel services batted 1.000 on
anything?
TallDave|4.13.08 @ 1:22PM|#
Did you get to figuring out what program it is that
waterboards Soldiers?
We don't know for sure because of OPSEC, but it's very likely to
include SEAL, Force Recon, and USASF.
A very poor analogy, as I pointed out
It was an incredibly stupid analogy. For soldiers, there is a
reward for enduring and a punishment for failing to endure it; they
are doing it to serve our country and protect us. It's not anything
like someone getting off on a sexual fetish. Nor is being struck by
someone out of the blue anything like being captured after planning
operations that killed thousands of Americans.
Did you figure out that those Soldiers volunteer to be
waterboarded, whereas the people who may or may not be AQ didn't at
all?
No, they volunteered for a program. They can choose to be
waterboarded or fail the program. AQ volunteered to be terrorists,
and they can choose to cooperate or be waterboarded.
You're also assuming that everybody we waterboard (or have in
the past) was AQ. That's a bold assertion with no proof.
It was leaked some time ago that only three people were ever
waterboarded.
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 1:23PM|#
A_R,
I agree that torture should not be used. We are talking about
waterboarding.
How much Nabisco stock do you own?
Neil|4.13.08 @ 1:24PM|#
"They" are the Islamofascists (the people who fly planes into
buildings and commit suicide bombings against Israel), and I trust
our military and CIA to be right more often than not. Therefore its
worth it, its worth it to keep us safe and to win the Global War on
Terror.
What I'm saying about Munich is, you think if we play nice with
them and give into their demands they will leave us alone. Guess
whaT? they won't.
In WWII we did all kinds of nasty things to suspected German
sabatoours, why can't we do the same to AQ?
Neil|4.13.08 @ 1:27PM|#
We're fighting in a part of the world where people are beheaded regularly, and AR is concerned about what they might think of waterboarding.
|4.13.08 @ 1:28PM|#
For soldiers, there is a reward for enduring and a
punishment for failing to endure it; they are doing it to serve our
country and protect us. It's not anything like someone getting off
on a sexual fetish.
Not the sexual fetish part, you dumbass. The fact that you
volunteer to undergo something because there's a risk/reward
calculus is far different from just having it applied to you
against your will. What's pissing me off is you knew that and now
you're just wasting everyone's time.
Are you going to stop being dumb on purpose?
AQ volunteered to be terrorists, and they can choose to
cooperate or be waterboarded.
Oh my god. What an intellectually dishonest argument. So, everyone
we waterboard is AQ, and we know that because we waterboarded them
until they told us they were AQ?
Tell me something: are you that ideologically screwed up that you
want us to lose this war? 'Cause shit like that is going to help us
lose faster than anything.
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 1:29PM|#
TallDave,
One of our SGMs at work has been waterboarded and he has only been
in Infantry specialties. Will ask him tomorrow, if I remember, what
school it was part of. SERE school probably does it too.
I think one of the GS-14s did too when he was in uniform.
BTW, SGM says uncomfortable vs. torture.
|4.13.08 @ 1:29PM|#
It was leaked some time ago that only three people were ever
waterboarded.
Was the leaker traitor ever brought to justice? Was he
aggressively interrogated until he confessed? Was he
executed for his crimes against America?
My God! If those heathen savages think their chances of being
waterboarded are that low, they'll run roughshod over us. I can
hear them laughing, now.
|4.13.08 @ 1:30PM|#
It is SERE, where they also beat the hell out of you. That must be OK to do to suspects in the GWOT too, then, right TallDave? I mean really just wail the shit out of a suspect? Our troops volunteer to do it, so it must be OK to just beat the crap out of suspects?
|4.13.08 @ 1:33PM|#
"They" are the Islamofascists (the people who fly planes
into buildings and commit suicide bombings against
Israel)
Hint: people who flew planes into buildings and are suicide bombers
are already dead.
As P Brooks pointed out, you guys want it both ways: waterboarding
is so uber-effective (but not torture!) and yet, we've only used it
three times:
Guess it doesn't have much of a deterrent effect, does it,
Neil?
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 1:33PM|#
A_R,
Oh my god. What an intellectually dishonest argument. So,
everyone we waterboard is AQ, and we know that because we
waterboarded them until they told us they were AQ?
Come on man, all three were AQ. The entire set was AQ. 100% were
AQ. How many different ways do you need this datapoint? They were
admitted AQ before we captured them, especially that John Belushi
looking one.
Neil|4.13.08 @ 1:35PM|#
Its so cute that AR thinks that people who live in a region of the world where people are beheaded and stoned to death are going to think waterboarding is so terrible!
TallDave|4.13.08 @ 1:37PM|#
The fact that you volunteer to undergo something because
there's a risk/reward calculus is far different from just having it
applied to you against your will.
There's no "risk/reward" calculus in a masochistic sexual fetish.
The discomfort is the reward.
And yes, analogizing our troops' devotion to duty and country to a
sexual fetish is incredibly stupid.
So, everyone we waterboard is AQ, and we know that because we
waterboarded them until they told us they were AQ?
Where are these innocent people you claim were waterboarded until
they claimed to be AQ? Perhaps they were waterboarded by the same
people who created the AIDS virus to kill black people? These lefty
delusional fantasies are certainly entertaining.
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 1:39PM|#
A_R,
I just want it one way: we win, they lose. Unless you break that
into two ways, then fine with me.
I don't give waterboarding a deterrant factor, it is an information
gathering technique. If all the being nice while being strong did
not work to deter them, then we move to other measures.
You still did not answer the Nabisco question. Are you profiting
off of the new, kinder, gentler cuddleboarding policy?
|4.13.08 @ 1:39PM|#
Guy - Come off it. Why did the Administration go through about
8,000 different legal contortions, arguments, memoranda etc. if it
was just three well-known and established AQ dudes?
Why go through all the trouble?
Its so cute that AR thinks that people who live in a region of
the world where people are beheaded and stoned to death are going
to think waterboarding is so terrible!
Neil, it's so cute YOU think it's so terrible that it's going to
have a deterrent and investigative purpose to the tough-as-nails
people you just described. So which is it, Neil: It's ineffective
because they live in a tough region, or it's effective because it
really does suck that much?
TallDave|4.13.08 @ 1:40PM|#
Was the leaker traitor ever brought to justice?
Dude, don't you read the NYT? Anyone who leaks damaging
intelligence is a national hero.
Michael Ejercito|4.13.08 @ 1:41PM|#
Today: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.
WWII: They laid me out on a stretcher and strapped me on. The stretcher was then stood on end with my head almost touching the floor and my feet in the air. . . . They then began pouring water over my face and at times it was almost impossible for me to breathe without sucking in water.
Is cellophane the fine line between torture and discomfort?
Yes.
The cellophane prevents any water from being breathed in.
Of course, I should also mention that the people who do this are
not entitled to POW protections. There is a reason spies can do
things that would get soldiers billeted to Leavenworth.
There is no uniformed component of Al Qaeda, so they can
all be given a spy's treatment.
|4.13.08 @ 1:42PM|#
And yes, analogizing our troops' devotion to duty and
country to a sexual fetish is incredibly stupid.
Please stop mouthing empty platitudes and masturbating to me,
TallDave. If you really gave a shit about me and my guys, you
wouldn't have sent us after a country that didn't have anything to
do with 9/11 and continue to support that action to this day.
Where are these innocent people you claim were waterboarded
until they claimed to be AQ?
Again, why did the Administration go through so many hoops to cover
themselves if this was a legal application made on Bad Dudes?
Something stinks.
Neil|4.13.08 @ 1:42PM|#
I'm sure if B. Hussein Obama was President he'd be real sensitive and give the terrorist milk and cookies, and after we were so nice to them of COURSE they'd tell us the information we need! LOL
TallDave|4.13.08 @ 1:42PM|#
Why did the Administration go through about 8,000 different
legal contortions, arguments, memoranda etc. if it was just three
well-known and established AQ dudes?
Gee, maybe because they're serious people seriously attempting to
balance what is morally acceptable with the need to protect
Americans in the wake of attacks that killed 3,000 and caused $2
trillion in damage?
|4.13.08 @ 1:43PM|#
Guy,
Why don't you indicate the difference between what we did and the
Japanese did first. You can't just assert "the water cure isn't
water boarding" and leave it at that. Is it the cellophane or the
fact that they're not Americans? Instead, when you lose an argument
you enter odd non-sequitors like asking A_R if he owns Nabisco
stock.
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 1:43PM|#
TallDave,
We might be able to find some waterboard victims in one of those
Iraq war Vets for Surrender groups. Has Jessee MaCbeth claimed it
yet, along with his claim of being a Ranger with only 60 days of
actual service?
Maybe when PV2 Scott Thomas Beauchamp completes his service he
could write about how he heard another soldier tell him about
it.
|4.13.08 @ 1:43PM|#
There is no uniformed component of Al Qaeda, so they can all
be given a spy's treatment.
What a *man*...you're so *tough* Michael.
God help you if you're ever declared an "enemy combatant" and/or
"shown to have provided aid and comfort."
TallDave|4.13.08 @ 1:44PM|#
If you really gave a shit about me and my guys, you wouldn't
have sent us after a country that didn't have anything to do with
9/11 and continue to support that action to this day.
Hey! Look over there! A squirrel!
Something stinks.
Yep, sure does.
TallDave|4.13.08 @ 1:46PM|#
We might be able to find some waterboard victims in one of
those Iraq war Vets for Surrender groups.
Could be some small-towners bitter about being waterboarded, too.
Keep an eye out for anyone clutching a Bible or a gun.
|4.13.08 @ 1:47PM|#
No, TallDave, that's not misdirection. I just want you to cease
your faux "Our troops are so teh awesome I can't believe you made
an analogy!"
Quit being such a little girl.
TallDave|4.13.08 @ 1:48PM|#
God help you if you're ever declared an "enemy combatant"
and/or "shown to have provided aid and comfort."
Yes, I'm sure Michael is going to mastermind a plot to fly a 747
into the Sears tower any day now.
But hey, if he does, you can defend his right to not be
waterboarded while we clean up the giant pile of corpses and steel.
That'll be nice. A good bonding moment.
Guy Montag|4.13.08 @ 1:49PM|#
A_R,
Guy - Come off it. Why did the Administration go through about
8,000 different legal contortions, arguments, memoranda etc. if it
was just three well-known and established AQ dudes?
Because it is Executive branch business, not leaky Legeslative
branch business.
BTW, you were not sent to Iraq because it had anything to do with
9/11 and nobody in any position of authority to send you there ever
claimed that either. Now YOU are the one being really silly. Even
if you were not a Lieutenant, you are still smart enough to know
that a global war has many fronts, Iraq being just one.
Michael Ejercito|4.13.08 @ 1:49PM|#
If you really gave a shit about me and my guys, you wouldn't have sent us after a country that didn't have anything to do with 9/11 and continue to support that action to this day.
What about a country that sponsored Palestinians terror?
TallDave|4.13.08 @ 1:51PM|#
What about a country that sponsored Palestinians
terror?
Bah, next you'll tell us Jews are people too.
Fluffy|4.13.08 @ 1:56PM|#
Guy, it seems apparent that you can't recognize your own racism,
so I will be happy to explain it to you.
Say you were the host of a political talk show. This afternoon,
you're going to have Barack Obama on your show.
Shortly before your show airs, a prominent black person says
something outrageous - let's say that Al Sharpton gets a little
angry about something, so he says "Maybe if African Americans blew
up some office buildings their issues would get more attention!" or
something like that.
If your first instinct is to adjust your notes to make sure that
this comment is a prominent part of the questions you ask Obama -
if you present it as something that you want him to explain - you
are a racist.
You may claim that you would just be asking one Democrat activist
about something said by another Democrat activist, but that would
be a lie. The truth would be that you would instinctively act as if
one black man is responsible for or "needs to account for" or
"needs to reassure us that he doesn't share the views of" every
other black person in America.
There is no uniformed component of Al Qaeda, so they can all be
given a spy's treatment.
Great. Fantastic. If all AQ are spies, then try them as spies under
our domestic laws or under the UCMJ if they were caught in a war
zone, and then hang them. Of course, torture is still out, because
torture of spies is not legal under US military or civilian law, or
at least it wasn't until John McCain made it his business to make
it legal.
|4.13.08 @ 2:00PM|#
What about a country that sponsored Palestinians
terror?
That's Israel's problem, let Israel handle it. It's not like we did
anything to people that supported IRA terror.
|4.13.08 @ 2:01PM|#
you are still smart enough to know that a global war has
many fronts, Iraq being just one.
The assertion that Iraq is a "front" in the GWOT is just that, an
assertion. It hasn't been sufficiently demonstrated that it was a
wise strategic move to invade in the first place and it hasn't been
shown that it makes strategic sense to remain.
What about a country that sponsored Palestinians
terror?
If you're so hung up about Palestinian terror, you go do something
about it. It's not a justification for 1 trillion dollars, 4,000
American lives and 100,000 Iraqis.
|4.13.08 @ 2:02PM|#
Because it is Executive branch business, not leaky
Legeslative branch business.
It's the job of the Executive branch to ensure they are
executing the laws of the land in COMPLIANCE with the laws
of the land. It certainly is Legislative business. Lack of
legislative involvement is what's gotten so far down the
anti-freedom road in the first place.
|4.13.08 @ 2:04PM|#
you can defend his right to not be waterboarded while we
clean up the giant pile of corpses and steel. That'll be nice. A
good bonding moment.
First you hide your arguments behind "The Troops"
Then dead victims.
And then you invoke anti-semitism, as if failing to invade Iraq
would somehow mean Jews aren't people, or something.
You're a fucking embarrassment.
Neil|4.13.08 @ 2:09PM|#
Why is it so hard for you to understand AR?
Nows not the time to start moaning about 2003. There is Al Qaeda
there NOW, theres Iranian Islamofascists in Iraq NOW, its clearly
been made the central front of the GWOT.
We can fight both there and in Afghanistan at the same time, just
like we fought both the Germans and Japanese in WWII, its quite
similar.
Yeah, war costs money, but as a % of the GDP the debt isn't abig
deal. Its still lower as a % of the GDP than it was under Reagan
(and liberals still whined about it then).
|4.13.08 @ 2:13PM|#
Nows not the time to start moaning about 2003. There is Al
Qaeda there NOW, theres Iranian Islamofascists in Iraq NOW,
its clearly been made the central front of the
GWOT.
Maybe if you go in circles fast enough, you'll disappear up your
own ass.
|4.13.08 @ 2:15PM|#
Neil:
The debt is 9 trillion. GDP is 13 trillion a year. You say it's
"not a big deal", and I would normally (yikes) agree with you, but
the interest payments and the lack of creditor faith in the United
States is what has led to the weak dollar and high prices.
Also, I guess you can say "hey, a trillion here or a trillion
there, what's the dif? It takes real leadership to make tough
choices to ensure the Government doesn't end up in default. I know
you have visions of a giant Visa paying for millions of Soldiers
and Tanks to roll across the globe in search of terrorists, but
real life doesn't work that way, little boy.,
|4.13.08 @ 2:18PM|#
There is Al Qaeda there NOW, theres Iranian Islamofascists
in Iraq NOW, its clearly been made the central front of the
GWOT.
Who made it that way?
Was that a smart move?
Has it made us safer?
Is it worth the cost?
What about the moral quandry of making a neutral nation a
battleground for a war they had no part in making?
These are questions adults ask. These are questions patriots ask
because we want to insure national security. You just want to go
gallivanting about the globe, sword in one hand and checkbook in
the other.
|4.13.08 @ 2:23PM|#
Every Democratic power broker thinks this. Clinton looks
sillier in populist garb than Dukakis looked in the
tank.
Ouch!
|4.13.08 @ 2:27PM|#
More questions I'm sure won't get answered by the Iraq
hawks:
- What is the end-state objective of the GWOT?
- What are the objectives?
- What's the timeline?
- What does victory look like in the GWOT?
- When does it end?
BakedPenguin|4.13.08 @ 2:29PM|#
Clinton looks sillier in populist garb than Dukakis looked in the tank.
Careful - she knows how to use a gun.
|4.13.08 @ 2:35PM|#
Thank you, AR. The silence from the neoconservatards after you asked those questions is truly stunning.
Michael Ejercito|4.13.08 @ 2:41PM|#
What about the moral quandry of making a neutral nation a battleground for a war they had no part in making?
What neutral nation was that?
Michael Ejercito|4.13.08 @ 2:42PM|#
That's Israel's problem, let Israel handle it
Those Palestinian terrorists are our enemies too.
Michael Ejercito|4.13.08 @ 2:44PM|#
Of course, torture is still out, because torture of spies is not legal under US military or civilian law, or at least it wasn't until John McCain made it his business to make it legal.
Correct.
Our soldiers can not legally torture spies.
Of course, what law do our spies operate under?
|4.13.08 @ 2:46PM|#
Since when is Israel a part of the United States?
Who the hell are you, a modern day Citizen Genet?
|4.13.08 @ 2:48PM|#
What neutral nation was that?
Iraq. Unless you can demonstrate that they were somehow significant
players in 9/11.
That is what the GWOT is about, isn't it? Yes, Iraq was
conventionally hostile to us, but if our truck is with radical
Wahabbists and Shia, you have a hard time saying that the
secular-Sunni Hussein junta is somehow not a neutral party.
Those Palestinian terrorists are our enemies too.
So, the justification to invade Iraq was because Saddam gave some
cash to people who haven't done anything to us?
If the Palestinian terrorists are our enemies, why didn't we invade
Palestine?
|4.13.08 @ 3:02PM|#
So we invaded Iraq because their government gave cash to the
families of suicide bombers who were attacking a foreign
nation?
Thats so weak, even for a war supporter.
alan|4.13.08 @ 3:06PM|#
Michael Ejercito | April 13, 2008, 2:42pm | #
That's Israel's problem, let Israel handle it
Those Palestinian terrorists are our enemies too.
If you want to shit stir Palestinians
do it on your own dime and some other
Nations flag. We have too many concerns under our own national
interest to get involved in a disagreement with the conflicts of
the worlds most primitive tribes.
alan|4.13.08 @ 3:08PM|#
I will add, compared to the Israelis-Palestinian conflicts,
Kenyans
as shown by the judicious resolution of recent events are a model
of enlightenment.
Oh yeah, and thank AR.
|4.13.08 @ 3:10PM|#
Yeah seriously, if you love Israel that much go join the IDF or set up a foreign legion or something. But don't do it with our tax money and our army. They aren't there to be used for other nations interests.
|4.13.08 @ 3:10PM|#
Michael (or TallDave, or Neil, or DONDEROOOOO)...do any of you have any answers to the questions I posted @ 2:18 and 2:27?
|4.13.08 @ 3:12PM|#
Oh yeah, and thank you, AR.
Pff...I didn't do anything special, but I appreciate the uhh,
appreciation nontheless :-D
|4.13.08 @ 3:17PM|#
I really, really really hope Bob Barr raises enough money to go up in the polls and be included in the debate. McCain would look like such an ass when he asks him questions about the war.
TallDave|4.13.08 @ 3:18PM|#
The assertion that Iraq is a "front" in the GWOT is just
that, an assertion. It hasn't been sufficiently demonstrated that
it was a wise strategic move to invade in the first place and it
hasn't been shown that it makes strategic sense to
remain.M
Sure, there were other options: we could have let Saddam have
Kuwait back in 1991, or we could have kept bombing Iraqis forever
while keeping troops on Muslim holy ground in SA to deter him, or
we could have just packed up and left while he restarted all his
WMD programs. Meanwhile, in any of those scenarios, all the support
for terrorism would have continued, as well as the massive
repression and huge death tolls.
So we invaded Iraq because their government gave cash to the
families of suicide bombers who were attacking a foreign
nation?
One of the many, many reasons, yes.
TallDave|4.13.08 @ 3:24PM|#
Who made it that way? Al Qaeda, by opposing democracy in
Iraq.
Was that a smart move? No, they got their asses kicked and made
themselves immensely less popular.
Has it made us safer? Yes, we haven't been attacked in all that
time, while AQ has been steadily enervated by their losing effort
in Iraq.
Is it worth the cost? Yes. By helping the Mideast liberalize, we
can prevent incidents like the one that killed 3,000 Americans and
cost $2 trillion; Saddam may not have been behind 9/11, but his
brand of repression and the need for the U.S. to "contain" him was
a factor. Also, some semblance of freedom and democracy for 25M
Iraqis is very much worth it.
What about the moral quandry of making a neutral nation a
battleground for a war they had no part in making? A good question
to ask Al Qaaeda. I'm sure it keeps them up nights. Iraqis still
believe the U.S. invasion was the correct decision. They are not so
sanguine about Al Qaeda.
Kolohe|4.13.08 @ 3:27PM|#
Note: Not an Iraq 'hawk'. and I hate the term 'global war on
terror.' It's like declaring in Dec '41 a war on Zeros. However, I
have no better one. And 'war on islamofascism' is even worse
because it furthers muddies the concept of what we're trying to
do
But I think you can be for the lack-of-a-better-term GWOT, and be
in favor of withdrawing from Iraq. In fact, IMO, doing the second
helps the first.
So as to your questions:
- What is the end-state objective of the GWOT?
The elimination of radicalized groups that execute violence toward
the established order, and/or their co-option into the political
order of where they operate. I include groups of all stripes in
this, so not just Al Queda and JI, but also FARC and Tamil Tigers,
for instance. Interestingly, I would 'engage' with Hamas by this
criteria, because they have indeed joined the political process.
(Note also that engagement != allied or even favoring)
- What are the objectives?
To assist allied nations with logistical and/or direct support in
their conflicts with internal or transnational terrorists groups
operating within their borders. Additionally, to use this leverage
to get host countries to open up and reform their political
processes so that potentially radicalized groups have less of a
beef.
- What's the timeline?
At least a decade, probably a generation.
- What does victory look like in the GWOT?
See above
- When does it end?
See above.
Just some dashed of thoughts. YMMV of course.
TallDave|4.13.08 @ 3:27PM|#
- What is the end-state objective of the GWOT?
Terrorism no monger a major threat.
- What are the objectives?
To reduce the capabilities of terrorist orgs.
- What's the timeline?
Wars generally don't follow timelines.
- What does victory look like in the GWOT?
I would say ten years of fewer than 100 people killed by terrorists
would do it.
- When does it end?
When that happens. The enemy gets a vote in war.
Any more softballs to lob?
Tacos mmm...|4.13.08 @ 3:33PM|#
Sure, there were other options: we could have let Saddam have Kuwait back in 1991, or we could have kept bombing Iraqis forever while keeping troops on Muslim holy ground in SA to deter him, or we could have just packed up and left while he restarted all his WMD programs. Meanwhile, in any of those scenarios, all the support for terrorism would have continued, as well as the massive repression and huge death tolls.
So, basically, we had to invade because we stuck our right fist in
the tar baby a few decades ago, and so now we had to give it what's
what with our left fist, too.
That's the problem with interventionism. Once you get started, one
thing leads to another, and the next thing you know, you're
pointlessly occupying a country for fifty years*
*The Philippines. We'll be in Iraq for a hundred.
Tacos mmm...|4.13.08 @ 3:36PM|#
Terrorism no monger a major threat.
Well, thank God. I don't feel it's a major threat now. Compared to
things like malaria, cancer, drunk drivers and poor economic
policy, in fact, it's downright benign.
Any more softballs to lob?
Yeah, when will the war on drugs end?
Tacos mmm...|4.13.08 @ 3:37PM|#
I would say ten years of fewer than 100 people killed by terrorists would do it.
So, basically, terrorism is a problem on the scale of lightning
strikes and shark attacks?
|4.13.08 @ 3:37PM|#
I would say ten years of fewer than 100 people killed by terrorists would do it.
All terrorists? Worldwide?
Are we counting non-Muslim terrorism? Do we count the Basques? IRA?
Sepratists? The Marxist PKK in Kurdistan?
For that matter, do we count Tibetans who bomb Chinese? Drug lords
in Colombia? Leftist rebels in Nepal? Kurdish rebels in Turkey and
Iran?
TallDave|4.13.08 @ 3:41PM|#
So, basically, terrorism is a problem on the scale of
lightning strikes and shark attacks?
Sure, and homicide is s smaller problem than cancer and heart
disease. Let's get those cops off the streets and into the lab!
|4.13.08 @ 3:43PM|#
Oh, heres one to think about. What if BOTH sides in a conflict
are carrying out terroristic acts (ex. Hindus and Muslims in
Kashmir)?
International terrorist groups.
Ok, so then the Palestinians don't count because they carry out
terrorism WITHIN a nation, right?
But what if say, the PKK is getting funded by drug lords in
Colombia? Is it then counted as "international"?
What if their goals are national, but they use areas of another
nation as bases for staging attacks?
|4.13.08 @ 3:44PM|#
vanya,
Two things. First, upstate NY weather is terrible in comparison to
which US region's weather? There's bad aspects to the weather
everywhere. I sure as heck would take a couple of months of cold
and snow over living in a frickin' desert year round. The economic
conditions are pretty rough, but that's largely a function of being
in a state run by NYC politicians. Businesses might put up with
Vampire State taxes and regulations so they can operate in
Manhattan, but they sure as hell ain't gonna do it so they can
operate in Buffalo.
But on the main topic, I think the problem with Obama's quote is
the condescension. He implies that if you vote the wrong way on a
social issue, it's because you're economically hopeless, NOT
because there is any merit to those positions. A superficial
judgement, perhaps, but Obama lives by superficialities, so it's
fitting he die by superficialities.
TallDave|4.13.08 @ 3:45PM|#
Yeah, when will the war on drugs end?
When politicians and voters have the common sense to read up on
Prohibition and how well it worked out.
Tacos mmm...|4.13.08 @ 3:49PM|#
Terrorism is a misnomer. What we're actually talking about here
is asymmetric warfare. A hundred years ago, civilian and military
armaments were not that different, making open, third-generation
warfare feasible for almost any nation or group. Now, however,
unless you have helicopter gunships and guided bombs, going against
a fully modern army in the field with a pretty much a losing
proposition.
As a result, you have groups turning to alternative means of
fighting. This will NEVER change as long as there are great
disparities in military power. And this is a good thing. Since
military technology is not likely to ever regress, the alternative
to enduring asymmetric warfare is enduring open war between two
superpowers. There would be a few more than 2,000 dead should that
happen.
An age of terrorism is just another way of saying an age of
peace.
Mad Max|4.13.08 @ 3:49PM|#
Oh, shit, now we're talking about how waterboarding isn't
torture!
Bill Clinton was an amateur, with his "depends on the meaning of
'is.'"
Tacos mmm...|4.13.08 @ 3:52PM|#
Sure, and homicide is s smaller problem than cancer and heart disease. Let's get those cops off the streets and into the lab!
I don't think that homocide is a great problem, either. We could
use fewer cops, since most of the ones we have are misdirected.
TallDave|4.13.08 @ 3:54PM|#
An age of terrorism is just another way of saying an age of
peace.
True, that's a good point. We're much better off than in the Cold
War.
The problem is that those asymmetric groups are also much harder to
directly deter (did AQ ever have to worry that we would nuke
Afghanistan into glass after 9/11?), and tend to do things like
crash planes into our skyscrapers. While it's probably better than
fighting proxy wars in Korea and Vietnam and Grenada, it still
merits some serious attention.
|4.13.08 @ 3:58PM|#
Fortunately the CIA videotaped the "enhanced interrogations that
weren't torture" so the armed services and intelligence committees
in congress can review the evidence and make a determination.
What's that you say? The CIA destroyed the best evidence that would
indicate that they were not engaging in torture?
Hmmm. I wonder why. Oh well, good patriotic Americans know that our
intelligence services would never, ever break the law and then
cover it up.
Nope, nothing to see here. Move along folks.
|4.13.08 @ 4:07PM|#
More proof that Teh Surge Is Working:
1,300
Iraqi troops, police dismissed
Separating the wheat from the chaff can only mean good times ahead
for Iraqi Democracy 5.3.4(d)!
|4.13.08 @ 4:07PM|#
Al Qaeda, by opposing democracy in Iraq.
You're ignoring the fact that AQI isn't the biggest threat in Iraq.
See: Muqtada Al-Sadr and JAM. A group that wouldn't have even been
a blip on the radar if Saddam was still there.
TallDave - define "terrorist".
Kneel|4.13.08 @ 4:08PM|#
"The CIA destroyed the best evidence that would indicate that
they were not engaging in torture?"
Yeah I guess you'd rather have us coddling terrorists than cause
them a little discomfort to save American lives LOL. Your a hippie
far left liberal comsymp if you think it's torture if it's torture
so is my fraternity hahaha. Go back to the 60s you lost with the
other cut and runners LOL.
PS - I'm an intellectually and morally bankrupt pile of pig
waste.
|4.13.08 @ 4:10PM|#
Has it made us safer? Yes, we haven't been attacked in all
that time
See: post hoc ergo propter hoc.
as well as the massive repression and huge death
tolls.
I suppose you support intervention in the Sudan, then? In Rwanda
when that all went down?
|4.13.08 @ 4:13PM|#
Yes. By helping the Mideast liberalize, we can prevent
incidents like [9/11]
Can you prove that at all?
TallDave - do you support war with Iran?
|4.13.08 @ 4:13PM|#
"Liberalize" in TallDave World means a country that scores as well as the Palestinian territories on the Freedom Index.
|4.13.08 @ 4:16PM|#
I'd really like to know what drug Iraq war supporters are taking
to make them feel so good about their position.
Is it cocaine?
OxyContin?
Ecstacy?
Whatever it is, can you please send some my way?
|4.13.08 @ 4:17PM|#
Iraqis still believe the U.S. invasion was the correct
decision.
Based on what poll or finding is that assertion supported?
ed|4.13.08 @ 4:27PM|#
journalists blow up into massive gas
Journalists...or bloggers?
There is a difference.
Or is there? Have we finally crossed the Rubicon?
|4.13.08 @ 4:28PM|#
I find it more strange that a so-called "conservative" like
TallDave would think that American foreign policy WRT Iraq should
be dictated by the Iraqis, regardless of their beliefs about
whether the invasion was right or wrong.
Well, I guess I don't find it strange: any port in a storm. Or "Why
I'll cling on to anything not realize how wrong I was", right?
|4.13.08 @ 4:31PM|#
AR I too find it strange that conservatives, who constantly whine about our sovreignty being under threat from the UN and MexicanImmigrants, let a combination of Iraqis and Israelis dictate our foreign policy.
|4.13.08 @ 4:32PM|#
Sure, there were other options: we could have let Saddam
have Kuwait back in 1991...
You offered absolutely no answer to my question in that post. I
said "Why should Iraq be a front in the GWOT" and you said
(basically) "uhh, 'cause Saddam might have done some bad shit later
on down the line."
The WMD thing is total bunk. Bunk, Dave, and you know it.
ed|4.13.08 @ 4:36PM|#
Eeek! I've stepped into a pissing match.
One doesn't expect that on Hit & Run.
(runs off to disinfect boots)
|4.13.08 @ 4:37PM|#
1,300 Iraqi troops, police dismissed
As they stand up ... and join the other side, we'll
stand stay forever!
Tacos mmm...|4.13.08 @ 4:41PM|#
The problem is that those asymmetric groups are also much harder to directly deter (did AQ ever have to worry that we would nuke Afghanistan into glass after 9/11?), and tend to do things like crash planes into our skyscrapers. While it's probably better than fighting proxy wars in Korea and Vietnam and Grenada, it still merits some serious attention.
We're paying too much attention to it. Fourth-generation groups
thrive on media attention, since it allows them to create fear out
of proproption to their actual ability to do damage. The best way
to approach such groups is to regard them as a police issue,
something that will never go away (like burglary), but does not
require full mobilization of a society to deal with, either.
The war metaphor, with it's implication that these conflicts will
someday end, is naieve and counterproductive, but it does serve the
ends of those who would like to use a continued state of emergency
to accumulate power.
|4.13.08 @ 4:42PM|#
Wars generally don't follow timelines.
Yeah, well, if you're not results-oriented enough to recognize that
you actually have to succeed at something within a reasonable
parameter (say, time and cost), I don't think you can rightly be
called "small-government".
You're basically willing to say that the GWOT is over whenever
TallDave says it's over, no matter the cost nor timeline. Despite
the fact you haven't shown evidence for a credible threat that's
worth the investment.
Yes, I think we should have invaded Afghanistan - they harbored the
9/11 perpetrators. Any and all individuals involved in the planning
and execution of 9/11 should have been hunted down and brought to
justice, despite whatever the "host" country said.
None of those things apply to Iraq. None.
Happy Jack|4.13.08 @ 4:49PM|#
None of those things apply to Iraq. None.
I can see that you haven't been reading Stephen Hayes. Saddam and
Osama are, like, married.
|4.13.08 @ 4:53PM|#
- What is the end-state objective of the GWOT?
The elimination of radicalized groups that execute violence toward
the established order, and/or their co-option into the political
order of where they operate. I include groups of all stripes in
this, so not just Al Queda and JI, but also FARC and Tamil Tigers,
for instance. Interestingly, I would 'engage' with Hamas by this
criteria, because they have indeed joined the political process.
(Note also that engagement != allied or even favoring)
So when is hell scheduled to freeze over? It's not our job to be
world policeman. That used to be a conservative belief. I'd guess
if Obama wins, conservatives will believe it again. They seem to
believe in increasing state power when they're at the controls.
|4.13.08 @ 5:01PM|#
Michael wrote, re waterboarding: "Used against them by whom
?"
Remember when our spy plane hit the Chinese plane, landed in China,
and the crew was held for a while?
Would you mind if China had waterboarded the crew?
|4.13.08 @ 5:04PM|#
I wonder if Neil's Mom and Dad know if their little boy is
playing on the internet.
Some parents are really negligent.
|4.13.08 @ 5:04PM|#
Hey Weigel, how's come you didn't mention the libertarian
flash mob?
Was the girl arrested for having Natalie Merchant on her Ipod?
|4.13.08 @ 5:12PM|#
More questions:
- So a stated goal is to reduce the influence of terrorist orgs.
Well, international terrorist orgs...so, like Cesar asked above,
what does it mean for a terrorist org to be international?
- Should the United States pursue terrorist orgs that are not a
direct threat to it?
- If we're hunting down individual perpetrators of violent acts,
well, why are we calling it a war?
tom|4.13.08 @ 5:15PM|#
So if waterboarding isn't torture, what have we proved? The
government uses a lot of torture methods that we know of, and I
would assume even more that they keep secret.
I mean, is anyone going to argue that
this isn't torture?
|4.13.08 @ 5:35PM|#
So the facts establish that the torture policies were settled upon and had in fact been implemented. The principal authors were facing severe blow back from career lawyers inside the government. And John Yoo was carted in to use the powers of OLC to silence lawyers protesting the illegality of what was done. I believe that an objective examination of the facts will show that this is precisely how John Yoo understood his role. In essence, he was not an independent legal advisor. He had become a facilitator, an implementor of the torture policies.
More
raving about torture.
|4.13.08 @ 6:19PM|#
I can see that you haven't been reading Stephen Hayes.
Saddam and Osama are, like, married.
See? SEE?!?
What did we tell you about the gay marriage?
Buncha little shits. Get the hell off my lawn!
|4.13.08 @ 6:21PM|#
I've never been able to understand why Iraq war supporters have
to engage in "package-dealing", that is, if you're an Iraq war
supporter, why do you HAVE to also be a torture apologist? Why do
you also HAVE to not worry about the human and financial toll that
the Iraq conflict is taking? Why do you also HAVE to paper over the
fact that the capabilities and abilities of the Armed Forces have
been diminished by this fight?
I can almost understand the "Well, we're there now and it'd be
irresponsible of us not to make the best of it", but do you also
have to continue to pretend that the WMD rationale wasn't bunk?
That the data were either misleading or cherry-picked?
Come on, Iraq-war supporters: you don't have to be a defender of
every bad thing that this conflict has generated. Be mature.
|4.13.08 @ 6:26PM|#
Come on, Iraq-war supporters: you don't have to be a
defender of every bad thing that this conflict has generated. Be
mature.
They have to take all or nothing because if they admit that Iraq
was an unconstitutional war based on lies and deception, they would
then have to support impeaching their guys on top, and possibly
trying them for war crimes.
And the one thing National Greatness Fucktards hold dear is loyalty
to each other, because they know if they don't hang together
they'll hang separately.
|4.13.08 @ 7:24PM|#
ar, compared to decapitations, electric drills through skulls, being burned alive? yeah, i'd have to say about on the level of frat-boy pranks.
|4.13.08 @ 7:32PM|#
Ayn Randian,
They behave like that, because they signed up for Team Red in the
aftermath of 9/11, when the Bush-led GOP set out to utilize war,
terrorism, Iraq, and foreign policy as wedge issues in an effort to
build a permanent Republican majority. They built a whole facade, a
whole world-view, around the idea that virtuous, manly, clear-eyed
Republicans were right about these issues - and were right as a
consequence of who they are (manly, virtuous, clear-eyed
Republicans) - and to admit that they screwed something, anything,
up makes the whole facade crash down.
I don't understand why people don't get this, or think I'm making
it up. Karl Rove gave speech after speech on this subject, making
this point explicitly. There were several articles published in
National Review and the Weekly Standard about the subject in 01-03.
They tell us quite plainly how the Republicans were going to work
to create exactly this mindset.
|4.13.08 @ 7:34PM|#
edna's torture: now, 20% less torture-y than before!
Seriously, a whole 20%!
Look, if bad torture is this:
TTTTTTTTTT
American torture is this:
TTTTTTTT.
See? USA! USA!
|4.13.08 @ 7:47PM|#
Income tax is torture, sign me up to be water boarded instead. Shit, only 2 days left !!!
|4.13.08 @ 8:12PM|#
Bush and Cheney should swing from the gallows but the US never
joined the International Criminal Court - lucky for them.
I really believe the GOP scum are led by turbo-Christians
Domnionists who want to drive a stake through the heart of "secular
humanists" - thus their hatred of those like the brilliant
capitalist George Soros (and Open Society).
They will lose though - we are smarter. Less evil - but
smarter.
|4.13.08 @ 8:17PM|#
yeah, i'd have to say about on the level of frat-boy
pranks.
How many deaths have occurred over the past five years due to
fraternity pranks, as opposed to deaths in US custody? And how many
"detainees" were innocent?
|4.13.08 @ 8:19PM|#
edna,
So if Hillary becomes president and disbands the Congress and
Supreme Court and installs puppets in the state governments, will
you take comfort in the fact that at least she's not gassing ethnic
minorities?
It seems to me it is YOUR sense of proportion that's out of whack.
For us to be even 10% as bad as Saddam is way the fuck too
much.
|4.13.08 @ 8:26PM|#
I mean, if Saddam was clearly so terrible that we were justified in invading even though there were no WMDs, doesn't that mean that if we behave 50% as badly as Saddam did, we're coming close to the threshold for Iran to justifiably invade and kick us out of Iraq?
Michael Ejercito|4.13.08 @ 8:26PM|#
Ok, so then the Palestinians don't count because they carry out terrorism WITHIN a nation, right?
Look up the 1972 Olympics.
Look up Leon Klinghoffer.
Michael Ejercito|4.13.08 @ 8:31PM|#
Oh well, good patriotic Americans know that our intelligence services would never, ever break the law and then cover it up.
So what? It is not as if they wear the uniform. If the enemy has a
problem with them, then they can punish those spies whom they
capture.
Michael Ejercito|4.13.08 @ 8:33PM|#
I've never been able to understand why Iraq war supporters have to engage in "package-dealing", that is, if you're an Iraq war supporter, why do you HAVE to also be a torture apologist?
I favor a policy of rendition to Israel, followed by don't ask,
don't tell.
|4.13.08 @ 8:34PM|#
I favor a policy of rendition to Israel, followed by don't
ask, don't tell.
How un-American of you.
Seriously.
|4.13.08 @ 8:39PM|#
If the enemy has a problem with them, then they can punish
those spies whom they capture.
So, as asked of you previously, would you have condoned torture of
our downed pilot in China?
Would you condone torture of our SF/Delta guys?
See, here's the thing: you can either do your best to walk upright
and Do the Right Thing, or you can declare open season on humanity
and get that whole "eye for an eye" thing going.
It's probably easy for you to say all that, though, since you
wouldn't be the one out there in danger of being captured.
|4.13.08 @ 8:41PM|#
So what? It is not as if they wear the uniform. If the enemy
has a problem with them, then they can punish those spies whom they
capture.
Your statement seems to indicate that you believe that U.S.
intelligence agents are above U.S. law. Is that an accurate
reading?
If not, do you then agree that those who violate U.S. law should be
prosecuted and punished by U.S. authorities?
I'm just trying to get a handle of what the fuck point you're
trying to make.
|4.13.08 @ 8:43PM|#
I really believe the GOP scum are led by turbo-Christians
Domnionists who want to drive a stake through the heart of "secular
humanists"
Uhhh...well...no. If you ask said turbo-Christians if GWB is "their
guy" you're just as likely to get a "Heck no" than you are a
yes.
|4.13.08 @ 8:45PM|#
I'm just trying to get a handle of what the fuck point
you're trying to make.
I think he's arguing that he's an idiot.
And he's VERY convincing.
|4.13.08 @ 8:53PM|#
I'm just trying to get a handle of what the fuck point you're trying to make.
I think he's arguing that he's an idiot.
And he's VERY convincing.
CP, shouldn't we let him respond before we make that conclusion?
Maybe Michael Ejercito will admit he was talking foolishly,
speaking through his sphincter, and apologize.
And maybe not. I'll give him the chance.
|4.13.08 @ 8:57PM|#
I'm sure Michael is considered damn-near a Rhodes scholar in the
hallowed walkways of myspace.
But that lame shit don't fly here, son.
|4.13.08 @ 9:00PM|#
oof, that last one was mean!
Sorry everyone - that should have been my inside voice.
|4.13.08 @ 9:01PM|#
It is not as if they wear the uniform. If the enemy has a
problem with them, then they can punish those spies whom they
capture.
I favor a policy of rendition to Israel, followed by don't ask,
don't tell.
What a splendid display of preening and posturing; and nary a hint
of dirt on your hands.
alan|4.13.08 @ 9:03PM|#
| April 13, 2008, 8:26pm | #
Ok, so then the Palestinians don't count because they carry out
terrorism WITHIN a nation, right?
Look up the 1972 Olympics.
Look up Leon Klinghoffer.
Look up the Levon Affair, look up false flag operations, look up
USS Liberty, look up Nuclear Blackmail Sinai Peninsula 1973, look
up Jonathon Pollard.
While you are at it, look up Israel ties to Apartheid, Mugabe,
right wing death squads, Guatemala, El Salvador . . .
Seriously, I advocate absolute neutrality towards Israel because we
are currently on a collision course with them, and it wont be any
prettier than our smash up with Islamic radicals.
Les|4.13.08 @ 9:17PM|#
Yes. What J sub D and Ayn have said.
Thanks guys, you're doing the responding so I don't have to. And
you're doing it better than I could. And for free! What a deal!
|4.13.08 @ 9:19PM|#
alan - right on! I've never understood the right's blind spot for Israel (though I am more of a supporter than a critic) especially WRT Pollard.
alan|4.13.08 @ 9:32PM|#
I use to be pro Israel too, until the Pollard matter. It hit home to an extent because my brother was a submariner at the time. It was revealed Pollard passed on information about our routing of submarines which the Israelis gave to the Soviets in exchange for Russian immigrants to fill up the West Bank.
alan|4.13.08 @ 9:47PM|#
Ayn_Randian | April 13, 2008, 9:19pm | #
alan - right on! I've never understood the right's blind spot for
Israel (though I am more of a supporter than a critic) especially
WRT Pollard.
In one of the tapes, Nixon is talking about the differences between
American And Israelis Jews, in a way that disparaged American Jews.
The whole gamut of nebbish/macho, intellectuals/warriors,
cosmopolitans/nationalist, and he was clearly using the comparison
to make an Anti-Semitic statement about American Jews. I have heard
some local Rushheads say in recent years pretty much the same thing
as Nixon did way back in the early 1970's. Support for Israel for
these guys actually stems from an anti-semiticism built on false
dichotomies.
robc|4.13.08 @ 9:54PM|#
As an aside on debt related things:
The official debt number is bullshit. The GAAP debt number is much
higher now than under Reagan. Anyone who uses the official number
is a tool.
|4.13.08 @ 10:18PM|#
It seems to me it is YOUR sense of proportion that's out of
whack. For us to be even 10% as bad as Saddam is way the fuck too
much.
10% is a bit high. 1% maybe. it's not "us" who are bad, it was a
small group of guards, who were (iirc) prosecuted. and that was
some years ago now.
ok, maybe 1% is even too high.
|4.13.08 @ 10:20PM|#
How many deaths have occurred over the past five years due
to fraternity pranks, as opposed to deaths in US
custody?
depends on how you want to categorize the statistics. might make a
cute column.
Kolohe|4.13.08 @ 10:28PM|#
What those fuckwit guards did at Abu Ghraib was unprofessional and criminal, but was not torture.
|4.13.08 @ 10:31PM|#
i just spent a week on a cruise ship. now that was torture. i nearly pulled a klinghoffer at least three times.
|4.13.08 @ 10:40PM|#
What those fuckwit guards did at Abu Ghraib was
unprofessional and criminal, but was not torture.
Torture defined by the Geneva Convention:
Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or
mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as
obtaining from him... information or a confession, punishing him
for an act he... has committed or is suspected of having committed,
or intimidating or coercing him.
There's no question, Kohole, that those acts were torture. At least
five high-ranking commissioned officers were punished for Abu
Ghraib.
alan|4.13.08 @ 10:51PM|#
If American soldiers had been stacked up naked like that who among those who are excusing the matter would not be calling it torture?
|4.13.08 @ 10:56PM|#
i'll take naked stacks over drills into skulls any
day.
In America, edna, we're supposed to be better than either
one.
Quit peddling in false dichotomies. Moral cowardice!
Les|4.13.08 @ 10:57PM|#
Edna and Kolohe,
I consider sticking glowsticks up prisoners butts to be torture.
You don't consider anal rape torture?
|4.13.08 @ 11:00PM|#
it's assault, it's rape, and people were prosecuted, as they
should have been. by contrast, systematic rape of american
prisoners was and is sop, and the perps get rewarded.
i think this happened at a frat once, too.
alan|4.13.08 @ 11:00PM|#
Most of us men would take a drill to the skull than anything that even suggest of sodomy.
Kolohe|4.13.08 @ 11:02PM|#
At least five high-ranking commissioned officers were
punished for Abu Ghraib.
Really? I thought the only commissioned officer that had anything
happen to them was that BGEN that was relieved of her command. I
didn't think anyone higher than E-7 went to court martial.
Michael Ejercito|4.13.08 @ 11:03PM|#
How un-American of you.
Seriously.
What happens in Israel stays in Israel.
Michael Ejercito|4.13.08 @ 11:05PM|#
Your statement seems to indicate that you believe that U.S. intelligence agents are above U.S. law. Is that an accurate reading?
For practical purposes.
It is not as if the L.A. County Sheriff's Department can serve a
subpoena in the mountains of Afghanistan.
Of course, renditioning terrorists to Israel solves this problem,
as the treatment of terrorists falls under the jurisdiction of the
courts of Israel.
alan|4.13.08 @ 11:05PM|#
However, if it was Cindy Crawford administering the glow stick, and not Lindey, my only objection would be, "wait, let me strap the bit and ball across my face first."
|4.13.08 @ 11:06PM|#
edna - I am perplexed as to why you're so afraid to call it
torture: It was systematic prisoner abuse, with physical and mental
pain doled out regularly, which you admit was criminal and the
response was correct. So why so afraid of the "T" word?
American Soldiers tortured prisoners. They were punished; so were
there superiors, many of them on charges of "detainee abuse".
Furthermore, the Administration went through all kinds of odious
legal hoops to try to justify it, thereby enabling what you admit
was criminal activity.
I don't know what the definition of torture is, if it's not what
happened at Abu Ghraib. What, they didn't roll out the rack, so
therefore it was just "criminally frat-boy abuse?"
Also: I'd like to note that frat boys can quit and leave anytime
they want. You can volunteer to have pain and degradation
administered to you (hell, it's what makes up half of Craigslist),
but doing what was done in the prison is "torture". It undoubtedly
left lasting physical and mental scars, and got some people
killed.
|4.13.08 @ 11:08PM|#
I thought the only commissioned officer that had anything
happen to them was that BGEN that was relieved of her
command.
Not only was BG Karpinski relieved, she was demoted. A LTC
had criminal charges brought against him and a full-bird pulled a
GOMR for it. That's off of the top of my head.
Michael - true conservatives belief in the rule of law, not the
rule of men. Your condoning of illegal renditioning and
"above-the-law" intelligence officers really is un-American.
Shame.
Kolohe|4.13.08 @ 11:09PM|#
OK, looking it up I see now.
The BGEN was reduced to COL through admin action
The COL went to NJP
THe LCOL was acquitted of all charges regarding the events at
A-G.
But the rest were E-6 and below.
(wikipedia)
link
Kolohe|4.13.08 @ 11:15PM|#
What's also kinda creepy talking about this is that ROTJ just came on and they just showed the scene of the power droid getting his feet burnt.
Ali|4.13.08 @ 11:18PM|#
What happens in Israel stays in Israel.
The problem is that what happens there does not stay there, at
least as far as Arab observers are concerned. Just sayin'.
|4.13.08 @ 11:19PM|#
it's assault, it's rape, and people were prosecuted, as they
should have been. by contrast, systematic rape of american
prisoners was and is sop, and the perps get rewarded.
You're in the wrong blog if you think people here approve of prison
rape. You must confuse Reason with LGF.
alan|4.13.08 @ 11:20PM|#
AR, I don't understand these movement Cons attitude. I would be embarrassed to grovel when discussing any nation, but these guys do it and they describe themselves as Nationalist!
|4.13.08 @ 11:27PM|#
I would be embarrassed to grovel when discussing any nation,
but these guys do it and they describe themselves as
Nationalist!
Who knows, man. I don't get it either...Michael's basically saying
"America's so great that we'll push our problems off onto other
nations! Because, um, Americans really want to torture detainees,
but we're too afraid...USA! USA!"
Whereas edna wants to run on the banner of "America: We Won't Drill
a Hole in Your Head*"
*though we may electrocute you. Participants need not
volunteer.
|4.13.08 @ 11:31PM|#
What happens in Israel stays in Israel.
what, you've got wiretaps on the Knesset or something?
Trying to figure out how YOU managed to gain secret knowledge of
how Israel treats detainees, if "what happens there stays
there".
Apparently it doesn't, else you wouldn't be so eager to try their
methods.
|4.13.08 @ 11:41PM|#
thanks to everyone for giving team National-Greatness-Let's-Torture the AY-Rabs the drubbing they so richly deserved.
|4.14.08 @ 12:03AM|#
You're in the wrong blog if you think people here approve of
prison rape.
i missed the part where i said that. link please?
|4.14.08 @ 12:07AM|#
I am perplexed as to why you're so afraid to call it
torture: It was systematic prisoner abuse, with physical and mental
pain doled out regularly, which you admit was criminal and the
response was correct. So why so afraid of the "T" word?
i'm not afraid of it, i just don't believe that abuse is always
torture. i don't believe that assault is always torture. i do
believe that assault and abuse are generally criminal and ought to
be dealt with as such. why the dichotomy of "if you think it's not
torture you must think it's ok"?
|4.14.08 @ 12:09AM|#
Furthermore, the Administration went through all kinds of
odious legal hoops to try to justify it, thereby enabling what you
admit was criminal activity.
i call bullshit. the administration condemned it in no uncertain
terms and prosecuted the people responsible. you have a reasonable
argument (though one i disagree with)- why dilute it by lying?
|4.14.08 @ 12:20AM|#
it's not a lie, edna, you're doing yourself a disservice. It was
not in "no uncertain terms"; it was immediately after (and in
conjunction with Guantanamo Bay) that all the yammering about
"enemy combatants" and "enhanced interrogation techniques" and "is
this really illegal?" started.
Feel free to read about how the VP
created this monster and then tried to blame it on
subordinates.
The first words flying out of Don Rumsfeld's mouth were, "We're
functioning...with peacetime restraints, with legal requirements in
a wartime situation... where people are running around with digital
cameras and taking these unbelievable photographs and then passing
them off, against the law, to the media, to our surprise, when they
had not even arrived in the Pentagon.
He's more pissed that someone "illegally" passed the
photographs.
Get outta here, edna. Srsly.
Orange Line Special|4.14.08 @ 12:31AM|#
A source inside the DCPolice just sent me a secret video of what
some are starting to call MonumentGate, the no-knock travesty that
has the entire Orange Line buzzing and ready to engage in acts of
civil disobedience in order to fight the power:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=m9wiW8c1Riw
Oh, I'm sorry, this is actually it:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5xi4O1yi6b0
|4.14.08 @ 12:44AM|#
my apologies, a-r, i thought you were talking about abu ghraib, which was a specific instance of non-sanctioned abuse, not interrogation policy in general.
Kolohe|4.14.08 @ 1:26AM|#
I honest don't think anyone above the COL knew what was going on
at a-g, and I don't think even the COL knew the full extent of what
the heck was his troops were doing.
That makes them more culpable, not less, however.
And reading some more about a-g, this
this really sets me off:
"In August of 2007 Pappas was granted immunity in return for his
testimony at the court martial of his subordinate Lieutenant
Colonel Steven L. Jordan.[5]"
That's like cutting Stringer Bell a deal to testify against Bodie.
(ok, more like Wee-Bey; still you work up the chain, not
down.)
Putting yourself in a position where you are colluding with
subordinates on illegal shit is dishonorable enough, but then
hanging them out to save to your own ass is downright cowardly.
|4.14.08 @ 3:35AM|#
MY FELLOW BITTER, STUPID, WORKING CLASS PEOPLE.
YOU MIGHT BE AN IDIOT, TOO :-(
If you think like Barack Obama, that WORKING CLASS PEOPLE are just
a bunch of BITTER!, STUPID, PEASANTS, Cash COWS!, and CANNON
FODDER. :-(
You Might Be An Idiot, Too!
If you think Barack Obama with little or no experience would be
better than Hillary Clinton with 35 years experience.
You Might Be An Idiot, Too!
If you think that Obama with no experience can fix an economy on
the verge of collapse better than Hillary Clinton. Whose husband
(Bill Clinton) led the greatest economic expansion, and prosperity
in American history.
You Might Be An Idiot, Too!
If you think that Obama with no experience fighting for universal
health care can get it for you better than Hillary Clinton. Who
anticipated this current health care crisis back in 1993, and
fought a pitched battle against overwhelming odds to get universal
health care for all the American people.
You Might Be An Idiot, Too!
If you think that Obama with no experience can manage, and get us
out of two wars better than Hillary Clinton. Whose husband (Bill
Clinton) went to war only when he was convinced that he absolutely
had to. Then completed the mission in record time against a nuclear
power. AND DID NOT LOSE THE LIFE OF A SINGLE AMERICAN SOLDIER. NOT
ONE!
You Might Be An Idiot, Too!
If you think that Obama with no experience saving the environment
is better than Hillary Clinton. Whose husband (Bill Clinton) left
office with the greatest amount of environmental cleanup, and
protections in American history.
You Might Be An Idiot, Too!
If you think that Obama with little or no education experience is
better than Hillary Clinton. Whose husband (Bill Clinton) made
higher education affordable for every American. And created higher
job demand and starting salary's than they had ever been before or
since.
You Might Be An Idiot, Too!
If you think that Obama with no experience will be better than
Hillary Clinton who spent 8 years at the right hand of President
Bill Clinton. Who is already on record as one of the greatest
Presidents in American history.
You Might Be An Idiot, Too!
If you think that you can change the way Washington works with
pretty speeches from Obama, rather than with the experience, and
political expertise of two master politicians ON YOUR SIDE like
Hillary and Bill Clinton..
You Might Be An Idiot, Too!
If you think all those Republicans voting for Obama in the
Democratic primaries, and caucuses are doing so because they think
he is a stronger Democratic candidate than Hillary Clinton.
:-)
Best regards
jacksmith...
p.s.
If you don't know that the huge amounts of money funding the Obama
campaign to try and defeat Hillary Clinton is coming in from the
insurance, and medical industry, that has been ripping you off, and
killing you and your children. And denying you, and your loved ones
the life saving medical care you needed. All just so they can make
more huge immoral profits for them-selves off of your
suffering...
You Might Be An Idiot, Too!
You see, back in 1993 Hillary Clinton had the audacity, and nerve
to try and get quality, affordable universal health care for
everyone to prevent the suffering and needless deaths of hundreds
of thousands of you each year. :-)
Approx. 100,000 of you die each year from medical accidents from a
rush to profit by the insurance, and medical industry. Another
120,000 of you die each year from treatable illness that people in
other developed countries don't die from. And I could go on, and
on...
|4.14.08 @ 3:37AM|#
DON'T BE DUPED !!!
Large numbers of Republicans have been voting for Barack Obama in
the DEMOCRATIC primaries, and caucuses from early on. Because they
feel he would be a weaker opponent against John McCain. With
Hillary Clinton you are almost 100% certain to get quality,
affordable universal health care very soon.
But first, all of you have to make certain that Hillary Clinton
takes the democratic nomination and then the Whitehouse. NOW! is
the time. THIS! is the moment you have all been working, and
waiting for. You can do this America. "Carpe diem" (harvest the
day).
I think Hillary Clinton see's a beautiful world of plenty for all.
She's a woman, and a mother. And it's time America. Do this for
your-selves, and your children's future. You will have to work
together on this and be aggressive, relentless, and creative.
Americans face an even worse catastrophe ahead than the one you are
living through now.
You see, the medical and insurance industry mostly support the
republicans with the money they ripped off from you. And they don't
want you to have quality, affordable universal health care. They
want to be able to continue to rip you off, and kill you and your
children by continuing to deny you life saving medical care that
you have already paid for. So they can continue to make more
immoral profits for them-selves.
Hillary Clinton has actually won by much larger margins than the
vote totals showed. And lost by much smaller vote margins than the
vote totals showed. Her delegate count is actually much higher than
it shows. And higher than Obama's. She also leads in the electoral
college numbers that you must win to become President in the
November national election. HILLARY CLINTON IS ALREADY THE TRUE
DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE!
As much as 30% of Obama's primary, and caucus votes are Republicans
trying to choose the weakest democratic candidate for McCain to run
against. These Republicans have been gaming the caucuses where it
is easier to vote cheat. This is why Obama has not been able to win
the BIG! states primaries. Even with Republican vote cheating
help.
Hillary Clinton has been OUT MANNED! OUT GUNNED! and OUT SPENT! 4
and 5 to 1. Yet Obama has only been able to manage a very tenuous,
and questionable tie with Hillary Clinton.
If Obama is the democratic nominee for the national election in
November he will be slaughtered. Because the Republican vote
cheating help will suddenly evaporate. All of this vote fraud and
republican manipulation has made Obama falsely look like a much
stronger candidate than he really is. YOUNG PEOPLE. DON'T BE DUPED!
Think about it. You have the most to lose.
The democratic party needs to fix this outrage. Everyone needs to
throw all your support to Hillary Clinton NOW! So you can end this
outrage against YOU the voter, and against democracy.
The democratic party, and the super-delegates have a decision to
make. Are the democrats, and the democratic party going to choose
the DEMOCRATIC party nominee to fight for the American people. Or
are the republicans going to choose the DEMOCRATIC party nominee
through vote fraud, and gaming the DEMOCRATIC party primaries, and
caucuses.
Fortunately the Clinton's have been able to hold on against this
fraudulent outrage with those repeated dramatic comebacks of
Hillary Clinton's. Only the Clinton's are that resourceful, and
strong. Hillary Clinton is your NOMINEE. They are the best I have
ever seen.
"This is not a game" (Hillary Clinton)
Sincerely
jacksmith...
alan|4.14.08 @ 11:04AM|#
'Oh American People, sing praises of me though your ballots, and
I will rain upon you prosperity and peace and affordable and
perfect health care, where no one dies, through my blessed
edict"
That's the witchdoctor theory of economics you are peddling there,
and you are doing it on a libertarian forum site, no less.
We are libertarians because we reject those superstitions. You know
what, you just might be an idiot, but I suspect in you are really
just a tool.
Hat Pines|4.14.08 @ 11:06AM|#
edna - I am perplexed as to why you're so afraid to call it
torture: It was systematic prisoner abuse, with physical and mental
pain doled out regularly, which you admit was criminal and the
response was correct. So why so afraid of the "T" word?
American Soldiers tortured prisoners. They were punished; so were
there superiors, many of them on charges of "detainee abuse".
Furthermore, the Administration went through all kinds of odious
legal hoops to try to justify it, thereby enabling what you admit
was criminal activity.
Yesterday, I read in the Los Angeles Times how guards in an Orange
County jail arranged for an inmate to be beaten to death.
With all this that goes on in American jails and prisons, should we
be surprised about Abu Ghraib? Or the treatment of detainees by the
CIA?
|4.16.08 @ 1:51AM|#
As a former resident of blue-collar Pennsylvania, I can tell you this: if Barack Obama is guilty of anything, it's stating the obvious...
Site comments/questions:
Media Inquiries and Reprint Permissions:
(310) 367-6109
Editorial & Production Offices:
3415 S. Sepulveda Blvd.
Suite 400
Los Angeles, CA 90034
(310) 391-2245