Barack's New Deal

Michael Young | April 12, 2008

Over at Powerline, there is an interesting post on how Barack Obama backtracked in his Indiana speech yesterday to counter "his elitist disparagement of ‘small town' voters" in an earlier speech in San Francisco.

In San Francisco, Obama had said: "So it's not surprising then that [when voters] get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

In Indiana, he polished this, so that it came out:

People don't vote on economic issues because they don't expect anybody is going to help them. So people end up voting on issues like guns and are they going to have the right to bear arms. They vote on issues like gay marriage. They take refuge in their faith and their community, and their family, and the things they can count on. But they don't believe they can count on Washington.

While Obama is indeed engaging in spin, there is a far more disturbing aspect to his interpretation. He misses the essential nature of modern culture. People don't end up focusing on issues like the right to bear arms, gay marriage, faith-based and family-based issues, and the like, because of bitterness against Washington or a sense that they can't effect change there. People focus on these issues because modern American political culture is, effectively, about subcultures, variety, pursuing parochial aims, and shaping one's identity and personal agendas independently of the state.  

What Obama implicitly regards (in both his statements) as signs of disintegration, as reflections of popular frustration, are in fact examples of a thriving culture. Exceptions to this, of course, are anti-immigration sentiment and bigoted protectionism, both of which Obama conveniently dropped in his Indiana comments. Yet Obama's approach betrays a very suffocating vision of the state as the be-all and end-all of political-cultural behavior. Outside the confines of the state there is no salvation, only resentment. This is nonsense, but it also partly explains why Obama is so admired among educated liberals, who still view the state as the main medium of American providence.      

Comments

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 4:54AM|#

Wasn't his lack of suprise at people expressing this 'clinging' behavior because they had lost their jobs 25 years ago or some nonsense like that? When I saw the longer quote on TV it read like he was trying to tell one group that another group does not act like them because they have been out of work for a long time, or something.

I want to see the stats on just how many people in the USA have been involuntarily out of work for 25 years and how you still buy a decent gun or clothes for Church in that situation.

GunsRfun|4.12.08 @ 5:16AM|#

So none of us cling to our guns because people in Washington wish to sieze them, violating a right enshrined in the constitution?

I didn't realize the vast majority of us were just waiting for the right handouts to be bought off

BoscoH|4.12.08 @ 5:21AM|#

Why is everyone skipping over the hypocrisy on the trade issue? In Ohio, he wants to renegotiate NAFTA -- and simultaneously assuring Canada that he's kidding. So now, he tells his San Francisco audience that the troglodytes don't like free trade, but he does. Let's get to the core of Obama. He is a pander bear, worse than your standard issue politician. It is hard to figure out what he really believes and what he'd really do.

Anonymous|4.12.08 @ 5:24AM|#

I was going to vote for him for sure if he won the nomination.

Now I may be right back to "throwing my vote away" on third parties.

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 5:34AM|#

Anybody wanna start taking bets on when Sen. Obama will imply that Sen. McCain was a "junkie" because he was in Vietnam? He seems to be tossing out every other fictional Leftist invictive, that one must not be far behind.

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 5:39AM|#

[bulb lights up]

It almost sounds like Sen. Obama has been getting his views of America from some old radicals from the 1960s and 1970s. Like he has been hanging out with folks from the Weather Underground/Students for a Democratic Society or something. Naaaa, can't be, that sould have been in the news or somethng . . .

Anon|4.12.08 @ 5:47AM|#

I think Ill still take Obama over 100 years in Iraq.

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 6:06AM|#

Anon,

Mrs. Clinton said she wants to be in Iraq for 100 years? Wow, she must have said that late at night when she was tired. Hope it was not during one of those 0300 phone calls. Have the direct quote someplace?

Fred C.|4.12.08 @ 6:28AM|#

Why is being anti-immigration a "sentiment" but being protectionist "bigoted"? Seems back-assward.

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 6:41AM|#

Fred C.,

Welcome to the house of mirrors in the world of the extreme. Words are really meaningless, but if they are going in the correct emotional direction, they are just fine. Maybe Sen. Obama is trying to be the Pat Buchanan of the Left?

|4.12.08 @ 6:48AM|#

John Mellencamp - Small Town
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eDkAG3R0h8
Vote Barack Obama 08!

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 6:57AM|#

Next thing you know we will have someone like the head of The Village Voice saying that one of his Black coworkers was his human property for many years, but it's all okay because it was said at a First Amendment ceremony, or something.

|4.12.08 @ 7:26AM|#

I have lived in a small town on the NJ/PA border for twenty-five years. Believe me, there's bitterness to go around. But it's there in upstate NY, NH and plenty of other small town regions. They have a right to be bitter, but they do cling to their guns.

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 7:31AM|#

Liz,

Are you one of the folks who has been out of work for 25 years? Not seeing what all the bitterness is for/from, other than those nannystate politicians, high taxes and, maybe, not being able to save enough money to move South.

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 7:35AM|#

I saw a documentry on small town life a few years ago. Roadhouse showed how small towns can be ruled by evil white guys who will smash your property with a monster truck if you don't do what they tell you to do.

In comparison to Mikael Moore's documentry on Canada, Canadian Bacon, small town America looks pretty evil.

Daniel Reeves|4.12.08 @ 8:08AM|#

People don't vote on economic issues because they don't expect anybody is going to help them. So people end up voting on issues like guns and are they going to have the right to bear arms. They vote on issues like gay marriage.

What Obama said here-- saying that people vote on social issues and not the economy (no mention of foreign policy)-- is patently false.

is patently false. Votes are influenced the most by unfavorable wars and the economy. Read this (pdf) or at least scroll down to the graph on the fourth page to understand.

It is true, however, that the president doesn't have that much control over the economy. Business cycles, the federal reserve, and the actions of the corporate elites control the economy the most. And that's the problem: we elect people assuming that they're going to do a lot for the economy, and the most influence they can have over an economy is bad, not good.

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 8:13AM|#

the actions of the corporate elites control the economy the most.

dude, it is much too early for me to drink. I will settle for lighting a cigarette with a dollar bill.

Mad Max|4.12.08 @ 8:15AM|#

Of course, the people of San Francisco focus *exclusively* on economic issues. That's why their mayor refuses to waste everyone's time with divisive cultural issues like gay marriage.

Mad Max|4.12.08 @ 8:17AM|#

Also, San Franciscans are too sophisticated to allow themselves to be distracted from the all-important economic issues by the emotional issue of guns.

|4.12.08 @ 8:17AM|#

People don't vote on economic issues because they don't expect anybody is going to help them.

Well, lots of people do vote for politicians who promise to line their pockets, but the disturbing thing isn't that he's wrong on the facts, its that he seems to believe government is supposed to transferring wealth.

So people end up voting on issues like guns and are they going to have the right to bear arms.

Yeah, the nerve of people. Voting on the basis of whether a politician will protect their Constitutional rights.

In Obama's mind, you should vote for someone because he will take from someone else and give to you, not because he will abide by the Constitution as written.

The Ron Paul Political Report|4.12.08 @ 8:20AM|#

I have had reports from my volunteers to the attitude in the inner cities in Philadelphia. They can't stop shooting their neighbors. So it's not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations. It also explains why they have kids they can't afford with no regard to the financial hardships that creates, food stamps, WIC, and welfare decrease their incentive to work. Thus the need for Latino workers.

Elemenope|4.12.08 @ 8:20AM|#

The Whole Quote:

"When I go around and I talk to people there is frustration and there is anger and there is bitterness. And what's worse is when people are expressing their anger then politicians try to say what are you angry about? This just happened - I want to make a point here today.

"I was in San Francisco talking to a group at a fundraiser and somebody asked how're you going to get votes in Pennsylvania? What's going on there? We hear that's its hard for some working class people to get behind you're campaign. I said, "Well look, they're frustrated and for good reason. Because for the last 25 years they've seen jobs shipped overseas. They've seen their economies collapse. They have lost their jobs. They have lost their pensions. They have lost their healthcare.

"And for 25, 30 years Democrats and Republicans have come before them and said we're going to make your community better. We're going to make it right and nothing ever happens. And of course they're bitter. Of course they're frustrated. You would be too. In fact many of you are. Because the same thing has happened here in Indiana. The same thing happened across the border in Decatur. The same thing has happened all across the country. Nobody is looking out for you. Nobody is thinking about you. And so people end up- they don't vote on economic issues because they don't expect anybody's going to help them. So people end up, you know, voting on issues like guns, and are they going to have the right to bear arms. They vote on issues like gay marriage. And they take refuge in their faith and their community and their families and things they can count on. But they don't believe they can count on Washington. So I made this statement-- so, here's what rich. Senator Clinton says 'No, I don't think that people are bitter in Pennsylvania. You know, I think Barack's being condescending.' John McCain says, 'Oh, how could he say that? How could he say people are bitter? You know, he's obviously out of touch with people.'

"Out of touch? Out of touch? I mean, John McCain-it took him three tries to finally figure out that the home foreclosure crisis was a problem and to come up with a plan for it, and he's saying I'm out of touch? Senator Clinton voted for a credit card-sponsored bankruptcy bill that made it harder for people to get out of debt after taking money from the financial services companies, and she says I'm out of touch? No, I'm in touch. I know exactly what's going on. I know what's going on in Pennsylvania. I know what's going on in Indiana. I know what's going on in Illinois. People are fed-up. They're angry and they're frustrated and they're bitter. And they want to see a change in Washington and that's why I'm running for President of the United States of America."

Mad Max|4.12.08 @ 8:20AM|#

California appellate court strikes down gun control measure approved by SF's sophisticated, rational, non-emotionally-driven voters:

http://www.ktvu.com/news/15013899/detail.html

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 9:07AM|#

Ah, I misremembered the 25 years jobs thing. He has a list ov everybody's jobs that were "shipped overseas" and he is going to bring those jobs back! Why is he the only one with the bill of lading anyway? Shouldn't that list exist someplace where scholars and economists can study it?

So, what about the jobs that were shipped overseas and the person who the job was stolen from died because they could not eat any more? Is there some procedure for a next-of-kin to get that job that belonged to their ancestor?

How about those jobs that these kids just won't do? If that stolen job was family property, is it okay if these new kids working in banks and IT, etc., turn down, say, a "recovered" mill job? Maybe some illegal immigrants can do those jobs when Sen. Obama brings them back in a truck and sorts them out on the job warehouse floor?

Dude, this guy is deep. The more he talks the more questions I have.

Elemenope|4.12.08 @ 9:07AM|#

FWIW, I think there is something to the idea that many people are cynical about government (for non-ideological reasons; Libertarians are *professionally* cynical about government, and so they don't count) because of political anomia, economic frustrations, etc., and many people do start voting according to cultural or racial clades, focusing upon desired social values when prosperity slips out of reach.

You guys don't think people are bitter and that bitterness doesn't play a role in how people vote?

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 9:16AM|#

E,

Um, more like people make all sorts of irrational emotional choices when they are deciding who they are voting for and it is not limited to folks in small towns, nor is it limited to "bitterness".

Mark|4.12.08 @ 9:18AM|#

While it's true that there's a lot of racism/homophobia/nativism, etc. in those areas of the country, to claim that this is the result of people distrusting government is absolutely silly. If people distrusted government, the last two people they would support would be Hillary Clinton and John McCain. Especially Hillary Clinton, who not only is an even bigger believer in government than Obama, but also happens to be married to the man whose government allegedly failed these voters.

|4.12.08 @ 9:28AM|#

I do wish people addressing immigration would acknowledge that there is a difference between being anti-immigration and anti-illegal immigration. It's getting old.

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 9:30AM|#

I think I solved the bitterness puzzle.

Those folks in the rust belt are pissed off that some guy from Chicago has been holding their stolen jobs hostage until they vote for him. As a United States Senator he could have restored these jobs that were shipped overseas, ore even pressed for reperations to the people whose jobs were taken, packed and shipped to India. BUT, he did not do anything about it and won't until his coronation, as long as everybody stays in line.

Yea, if my $50/hour (after union dues) machine shop job were packed up and shipped away I would be pissed too.

dilemma|4.12.08 @ 9:34AM|#

The Powerline precisely frames the dynamic of the fatal flaw in Obama's inital comment and follow-up. The suredness of his analysis trumps all others view of the world. It IS condescending and he does not still realize why. How tone deaf, and he want's to be a uniter of these poor bitter folks?

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 9:38AM|#

john doe,

If you are looking for that distinction you might want to check The National Review online. Here at Reason/The Nation/Slate/The New Republic/the World Socialist Web Site , immigration is immigration and if you are against any restrictions on it, then you, Sir, ar a racist.

No, that is not my view, I actually agree with you, but don't expect the editors here to change their view.

MK2|4.12.08 @ 9:39AM|#

"Outside the confines of the state there is no salvation, only resentment. This is nonsense..."

It's also a fucking straw man. Like the fundamentalist you are, you twist everything to fit your cherished dogma. Recognizing that the state has a role to play in providing the economic stability that is a neccesary condition for the pursuit of private aims is not at all the same as saying there is no salvation outside the state.
The problem with building a movement on anything as inexact and arguable as economics is that you end up a mindless dogmatic--like a marxist or a libertarian.

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 9:40AM|#

dilemma,

If we were not evil racist corporatist tools we would realize what a uniter Sen. Obama is.

|4.12.08 @ 9:42AM|#

Guy Montag, how many cups of coffee did you have this morning?

SIV|4.12.08 @ 9:46AM|#

Does Obama intend to require the PA yokels to denounce Jesus when they turn in their guns for a Government job?

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 9:52AM|#

anono,

2 pints, whatever that works out to. On my way out for some breakfast and a Starbucks mocha.

I think the biggest effect is that phentinal finally wearing all the way off (I think), and that other stuff that starts with a V, from Thursday morning.

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 9:54AM|#

SIV,

Shush! That is part of the secret plans that will have to be worked out later, like pulling out of Iraq in a month.

Episiarch|4.12.08 @ 9:58AM|#

No, I'm in touch. I know exactly what's going on. I know what's going on in Pennsylvania. I know what's going on in Indiana. I know what's going on in Illinois. People are fed-up. They're angry and they're frustrated and they're bitter. And they want to see a change in Washington and that's why I'm running for President of the United States of America.

Does anyone besides me find this hilarious? That he would even say that he "knows"? I can't tell yet if he's Jesus, Dr. Who, or a Cylon. We don't know who the twelfth model is yet, people--it could be him.

Elemenope|4.12.08 @ 10:01AM|#

Does Obama intend to require the PA yokels to denounce Jesus when they turn in their guns for a Government job?

My favorite part is how there are real, actual Americans who believe this is what it would be like.

Oh, you weren't kidding, were you, SIV. How awkward.

Elemenope|4.12.08 @ 10:03AM|#

I can't tell yet if he's Jesus, Dr. Who, or a Cylon.

There is only one candidate in this race who is clearly a Cylon, and that's McCain. I mean, how else did he get his eye back?

Colin|4.12.08 @ 10:05AM|#

"I think Ill still take Obama over 100 years in Iraq."

You'll get Obama and a hundred years in Iraq. And you'll like it.

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 10:10AM|#

Does anyone besides me find this hilarious?

Yes.

|4.12.08 @ 10:11AM|#

Guy Montag | April 12, 2008, 8:13am | #

the actions of the corporate elites control the economy the most.

dude, it is much too early for me to drink. I will settle for lighting a cigarette with a dollar bill.

Guy, that was blatantly dishonest. Let's roll the tape -

It is true, however, that the president doesn't have that much control over the economy. Business cycles, the federal reserve, and the actions of the corporate elites control the economy the most.

The above statement is not a leftist anticorporate whine, it is arguably contains a good bit of economic truth.

Don't ever let me see you complain about an out of context quote. I'll throw this in your face.

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 10:12AM|#

Enough of this, where is the weekend thread? Or is it three threads back and I missed it with my random, mindless scrolling?

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 10:16AM|#

JsD,

It contained a decent bit of truth until he got to the Leftist whine at the end. And, no I do not normally drink alcohol before noon but today I might make an exception.

Thinking red wine might go well with a Mexican omlet.

|4.12.08 @ 10:17AM|#

Enough of this, where is the weekend thread? Or is it three threads back and I missed it with my random, mindless scrolling?

I hereby, on my own authority, declare this to be the weekend political thread.

As the late, great, Admiral Grace Hopper once noted "It is easier to get forgiveness that to get permission."

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 10:19AM|#

JsD,

Her park is right down the road from me, but they do not mention that she was an Admiral on her sign.

|4.12.08 @ 10:25AM|#

Are you saying that the actions of the corporate elite don't have a large effect on the economy?

Bear Stearns? ↓
WalMart? ↑
Enron? ↓
Google? ↑

SIV|4.12.08 @ 10:25AM|#

LMNOP,


My favorite part is how there are real, actual Americans who believe this is what it would be like.

Yes there are. The well-heeled donors at the san francisco fundraiser where Obama made the original remarks.

I don't believe it--the government can't create that many jobs! The patronage woudn't go to rural PA caucasian working class people if he could

|4.12.08 @ 10:27AM|#

Or is it three threads back and I missed it with my random, mindless sctrolling?

Sorry, guy; that just leapt out at me, and I had to see it on the screen.
You're doing fine, although I did think the "coffee" question was right on the money.

|4.12.08 @ 10:28AM|#

Her park is right down the road from me, but they do not mention that she was an Admiral on her sign.

You are f*ing kidding me?
That is an outrage. Call the parks commisioner and verbally slap him around for a while. All of her pioneering work in computer science was done as a naval officer.

Mega-Sheesh.

|4.12.08 @ 10:42AM|#

Oops- sorry about the small "G."

And as for the topic at hand, I'm thinking of the old adage, "When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

Obama is a Senator; of course he sees himself as the saviour of the (ignorant, pathetic, feckless) little guy, and that salvation can only come through government intervention in the economy.

Thinking back to the thread about Michelle O and her comments bout their totally random, accidental successes in life, I cannot help wondering if he would ever admit to writing his book out of purely pecuniary motives. I mean, just because *he* can raise his sights above the daily grind and find a way to improve his situation, that doesn't mean a bunch of embittered honkeys can (barring the benficent ministrations of their betters in the government).

|4.12.08 @ 10:49AM|#

It's a good thing I never give anybody grief about not proofreading what they post.

stupid keyboard

MK2|4.12.08 @ 10:54AM|#

P Brooks

An economy free of government intervention is a complete unknown. You've never lived in one, and neither have I.

charlie|4.12.08 @ 11:13AM|#

I stopped reading at "Over at Powerline, there is an interesting post..."

|4.12.08 @ 11:19AM|#

I would like to know what is wrong with outspending someone during an election. Obviously Obama knows how to run a campaign. It takes a lot of money to counter the Clinton machine. Most people would have been swallowed by now ... just ask Monica .That is all I ever hear. He out spent us ... he out spent us. What is he supposed to do with his money , put it in an IRA? After the new polls come out, Obama is going to be ahead by a few points. Hillary made a huge mistake by pouncing on Obama for his "bitter "remark because the voters are pretty smart. All she had to do was sympathize with the voters, even if she had to pretend. She would have locked up the Pennsylvania vote. If Obama would have apologized, he would have lost my vote. He spoke the truth.If only people could read, they would know exactly what he meant..... Both Clinton and Mcain have skirted around this issue, but didn't have the B-A-L-L-S to say it. I can see Clinton jumping on this because she is desperate, but McCain, he must have alzheimers, because he forgets what he stood for last week.

|4.12.08 @ 11:27AM|#

Doesn't the anti-gay marriage and the anti-immigrant sentiments and movements that Obama says people turn to when the state fails to help them (whether it can or not) economically also related to state action? I mean, the movement is for the feds to bar any state from recognizing gay marriage and for the feds to take an active role in stopping and rounding up immigrants. So I'm not sure what Young is getting at when he says that these two movements are healthy manifestations of non-governmental subcultural issues. WTF? Can't he stick to crazy analysis of foriegn policy? If those two movements were indeed non-state related subucultural issues they would involve people simply voluntarily choosing to not live around gays or immigrants. But they ain't they are not...

|4.12.08 @ 11:28AM|#

"But they ain't and they are not"

|4.12.08 @ 11:31AM|#

BTW-I hear a fair amount here on H&R about why the average American opposes immigration and trade so much, and a lot of it paints the public as a fair bit more misdirected and mistaken as Obama's quote does...

MK2|4.12.08 @ 11:40AM|#

Let's stop the bickering and pause for a prayer.

Hail Market,
Full of grace,
Prosperity is with thee.
Blessed art thou among systems,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Capital.
Holy Market,
Mother of Goods,
pray for us consumers now,
and at the hour of our bankruptcy.
Amen.

|4.12.08 @ 11:42AM|#

stupid keyboard

Tt is a poor workman who blames his tools. ;-)

|4.12.08 @ 11:43AM|#

It, not Tt!

stupid fingers.

|4.12.08 @ 11:52AM|#

Re: MK2 | April 12, 2008, 11:40am

♫Hes a one trick pony
He either fails or he succeeds
He gives his testimony
Then he relaxes in the weeds
Hes got one trick to last a lifetime
But thats all a pony needs♫

Trolls require more.

Peder|4.12.08 @ 11:56AM|#

JsD,
MK2 must have given in to the bitterness if it's come to prayer.

Elemenope|4.12.08 @ 11:58AM|#

It is a poor workman who blames his tools.

Unless his tools are really shitty. :)

MK2|4.12.08 @ 11:59AM|#

Market fundamentalists of the world unite! You have nothing to lose because you'll never win.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 12:02PM|#

Once again this shows how out of touch liberal Barack Obama is with the real heartland of America is.

Like his extremist liberal wife, he may play well with the New England-San Francisco-Chicago-Harvard-Yale elitist crowd, but out in the real world of Pennsylvania hes going to get trounced by the white working class voters he just threw under the bus as fast as he did his grandma.

I hope the Democrat Party nominates him, because between this and his extremist race-bating reverend Allahamba O'Govern will be lucky to win 50 electoral votes.

|4.12.08 @ 12:05PM|#

Unless his tools are really shitty.

Hey! I used my smoothest rock, and my sharpest stick, to make that.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 12:12PM|#

I also love how the leftist liberal Democrat Party can't decide on which affirmative action victim-pimping group to reward.

|4.12.08 @ 12:20PM|#

"It's being reported that my opponent said that the people of Pennsylvania who faced hard times are bitter; well, that's not my experience," Mrs. Clinton told an audience at Drexel University. "Pennsylvanians don't need a president who looks down on them; they need a president who stands up for them, who fights for them, who works hard for your futures, your jobs, your families."

-Hillary

She's different. She wants to fight for their futures. Because they would be helpless without her.

Fritz|4.12.08 @ 12:21PM|#

It strikes me now that a President Obama will probably be the Democrats' Reagan: someone who goes out and speaks inspiring rhetoric (taylor-made for the recipient audience, of course), but leaves the policywork to his underlings.

Orange Line Special|4.12.08 @ 12:22PM|#

Michael Young:

Thanks for the laugh! Included in your examples of a "thriving" culture is IdentityPolitics, CorporatePluralism, and the like.

As for the part of BHO's original statement involving trade and imm., you are, needless to say, wrong: Obama was being misleading.

Reason Magazine, Where Every Day is OppositeDay!

|4.12.08 @ 12:23PM|#

I don't get why people are getting a hair up their asses about the religion part. It's pretty common knowledge that people become more religious during trying times. Alcoholics Anonymous is built on this theory.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 12:24PM|#

Fritz Reagan was a real American who understood the heartland and didn't look down on it from some Harvard ivory tower like Obama. Obama is just a liberal San Francisco-Chicago-Harvard big city elite, Reagan was a real American.

psyclone|4.12.08 @ 12:24PM|#

People didn't vote for Bush because they thought he was competent - they voted for him because he represented their world view - albeit a third grade world view. The same holds true for the current slate.

Elemenope|4.12.08 @ 12:30PM|#

Because they would be helpless without her.

Since he was a former community activist and organizer, I have a really hard time believing that Obama thinks people are helpless without government. For that matter, I doubt somehow that Hillary believes it either.

More likely, he believes what most liberals believe: that government is the only force powerful enough to countervail other powerful and sometimes hostile forces in people's lives, and unlike most of those other forces, people actually have a say in their own government.

Now, one may say (with a great deal of warrant) that this view is naive in that it fails to take into account just how badly government may go sometimes, is overly optimistic in predicting the effectiveness or efficiency of regulation, and is sometimes counterproductive in that it causes a whole host of unintended consequences.

It is not usually predicated on condescension and/or pity, and so it is obnoxious to continue to set up this straw man.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 12:33PM|#

Elemenope you're wrong liberal Democrats think people who didn't go to the big ivy leagues or live in the big city are stupid hicks who need to be "educated" into the liberal Democrat world view.

They think you're stupid. They think SUVs are stupid. They think supporting the troops is stupid. They think owning a gun is stupid. They think going to church twice a week is stupid. They think flying the flag on the 4th of July is stupid. They think unless you live in a handful of big cities and have a high-dollar liberal arts education you're stupid.

They don't like America.

Elemenope|4.12.08 @ 12:41PM|#

"They" talk a lot, don't they, Neil.

I think it was Nietzsche who first pointed out that for every detractor of a party or movement, the most effective was the true believer who was a fucking idiot. That person's sole purpose in life was to serve you as a reminder of just why you don't belong to that group.

|4.12.08 @ 12:44PM|#

-Hillary

She's different. She wants to fight for their futures.

She can crawl up my ass and fight for air. Hugo Chavez in a pant-suit.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 12:46PM|#

Way to be an elitist Elemenope. No wonder you defend Allahamba.

Why don't you accuse me of "clinging" to guns and religion next?

alan|4.12.08 @ 12:46PM|#

Word from inside the campaign has it that Obama is actually an excellent bowler but he made the political calculation that the small town proles would be more forgiving of a bad performance than his San Fransisco supporters would be forgiving of a good one.

Elemenope|4.12.08 @ 12:47PM|#

alan, ROFL!

Neil|4.12.08 @ 12:52PM|#

How can you seriously defend a guy who wouldn't even put his hand on his heart during the national anthem? Isn't that just a little weird and un-American?

LT Nixon|4.12.08 @ 12:52PM|#

Why do we always want to line up to take our pills from Nurse Ratched. How sad has America become.

|4.12.08 @ 12:52PM|#

More likely, he believes what most liberals believe: that government is the only force powerful enough to countervail other powerful and sometimes hostile forces in people's lives

And in what way does this refute my (admittedly simplified) assertion that these self-described liberals believe the little guy desperately needs their help?

In the long version of Obama's statement (quoted earlier by you), is this:

And for 25, 30 years Democrats and Republicans have come before them and said we're going to make your community better. We're going to make it right and nothing ever happens.

That sounds to me like he's saying, "I won't let you down, like those other guys; *this time* you shall be saved. By me."

|4.12.08 @ 1:01PM|#

It is not usually predicated on condescension and/or pity, and so it is obnoxious to continue to set up this straw man.

I'm going to argue that leftist political thinking is often predicated on condescension towards the average American. Particularly towards the average red voting American. I'm not saying they are wrong in that belief. I believe tha average republican voter is a moron. This is somewhat counterbalanced by my firm conviction that the average democrat voter is of sub normal intelligence as well.

The snide comments from the left about Reagan and GW Bush's lack of intelligence are too numerous to bring up. The Alzheimers jokes about McCain have already started and will be coming to a screen near you before November. The right's disingenuous disparaging the patriotism of those on the left side of the spectrum is equally prevalent and odious.

It is not just boilerplate, these folks really believe the crap they are spouting. Sad, but true.

|4.12.08 @ 1:04PM|#

While I was composing my previouss post, Neil was buttressing one of my points about the right.
Thanks Neil!

Neil|4.12.08 @ 1:07PM|#

You don't think its just a little bit STRANGE that Obama had his hand down by his side instead of over his heart during the national anthem J sub D?

Allahamba probably thinks you're just an idiot who "clings" to guns and religion. The bottom line is the liberal Democrat Party doesn't understand our culture, only San Francisco-Manhattan-Malibu culture.

alan|4.12.08 @ 1:09PM|#

Of course there is truth in what Obama said. I recall a recent conversation I had with a transplant friend from upper state New York (and thank God for them, Northern women find me more attractive than Southern ones for some reason) talking about how girls from stable working class families with whom he went to high school taking up working for escort services in Canadian cities after the rust belt bust.

However, there is the assumption in Obama's rhetoric that smacks of old Marxist rhetoric concerning false consciousness that if the proles could see their economic interest for what it is they would not be distracted by Kulturkamf. If they recognized their economic interest they would throw out their entrenched political elites whose pro union, anti corporate policies make their localities unattractive for economic growth.

|4.12.08 @ 1:10PM|#

I'm retired military, Neil. I don't get my tits in a flutter over meaningless symbolism. I guess that means I'm unpatriotic as well.

|4.12.08 @ 1:12PM|#

Neil - we don't care about archaic shows of pseudo-patriotism. Both Team Blue and Team Red (that's your side, asshole) have shown themselves patently incapable and unwilling to respect and follow The Supreme Law of the Land. That's unpatriotic.

J sub - so the left makes hay out of how dumb the right is, the right shoots back with how dumb the left is, and libertarians are just misanthropic?

We really need a more positive outlook. I don't think people are dumb so much as relatively misguided (albeit reasonable and intelligent, for the most part)

|4.12.08 @ 1:12PM|#

I'm deeply thankful for a President who holds his hand over his heart as the National Anthem is played; even as he is busily wiping his ass with the Constitution, with the other one.

It's the single most important thing.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 1:13PM|#

Well what do you think about his wife and her leftist academic racial hustling at Yale? The rumor is, her parents were Comsymp fellow travelers, or even party members.

Mad Max|4.12.08 @ 1:15PM|#

Sen. Obama's position seems like an example of the "waste of time" theory of "cultural issues" - the idea that the important political questions are economic (in the narrow sense), and therefore anyone who focuses on other issues - issues which are not directly economic - is wasting time and diverting his focus and attention from the true, economic issues. In this particular case, Sen. Obama is spinning this that the people haven't been offered real economic solutions, so they've been forced to wank off with the cultural issues - use them as a security blanket because there haven't been enough statesmen like Obama to show revive their faith in economic interventionism.

I wonder if the Senator is willing to apply his principles consistently. If he truly believes that God, guns and gays [to take a sample of purportedly non-economic issues] are distractions from real issues, then that would seem to apply regardless of a person's position on the three Gs. In other words, if God-guns-gays are timewasting issues, then they're a waste of time for *everyone* who focuses on them, whether they're in the NRA or the Brady Campaign, the Christian Coalition or the Gay Rights Campaign.

I would love to see Sen. Obama try and play out this idea - maybe have a Sister Souljah moment or two with traditional Democratic constituencies.

"Sen. Barack Obama today, in a speech before Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, urged his audience to 'focus on the real issues.' The Senator said: 'why are you spending so much time worrying about religious monuments in courthouse squares when the Republicans are trying to steal your Grandpa's pension?'

"In another speech, in front of the Coalition for Victim Disarmament, derided the 'excessive focus' on gun control. 'Gun control isn't important,' said Obama. 'What's important is that I have a plan to save your grandma from being thrown out into the snow - or what *would* be snow if it wasn't for that darn global warming.'

"In a third speech, Obama told the San Francisco Gay Club that 'it's time you stopped worrying about gay rights. Who cares? Never mind what I think about gay rights, the important thing is that I have a wonderful plan to save your jobs."

I wonder how that would go over? I wonder if those Deep Thinkers who don't want people to be distracted by cultural issues would support Obama on that one?

|4.12.08 @ 1:16PM|#

Neil,
Judging by conservative reaction to the Harriet Meiers nomination and her educational background, the conservative elite thinks the same thing. They pretend they don't believe it in order to get votes. Heck, look how they responded to the Huckabee nomination. And how is hating on the urban and liberal centers any different than doing the same for the heartland. You seem to hate America just as much, just a different part.

As for the national anthem thing:

Modern custom does not require a hand over the heart, said Anne Garside, director of communication for the Maryland Historical Society, home of the original manuscript of the Star-Spangled Banner. "I think the bottom line is that you show respect with your demeanor," she said. "Whether you put your hand over your heart, hold your hat at shoulder level or waist level, is really in this day and age irrelevant."

I'm more concerned over someone who bases their voting decision on something like this. It's not like he was cracking jokes and making fart noises during the anthem.

Personally, I hate SUVs and think they're dumb in an urban/suburban environment, but I don't give a shit what you do if you don't drive like a moron (which isn't a given). However, it's my right as an American to believe what I want and I won't stop you from doing what you want.

Mad Max|4.12.08 @ 1:16PM|#

"Well what do you think about his wife and her leftist academic racial hustling at Yale? The rumor is, her parents were Comsymp fellow travelers, or even party members."

Neil, please stop, you're going to turn me into a Democrat.

alan|4.12.08 @ 1:21PM|#

First of all, I don't vote for a candidate based on whom his misguided heart fell in love with at one time. I have been a sucker for love, too.

I do recognize that our current system gives wives some power, I want all funding cut for first ladies and the wives of Vice Presidents as well. It is crazy we accept this publicly financed arrangement. It isn't suppose to be a serial monarchy, after all.

Last of all, I don't like her. I can see where right wing rhetoric about her may prove to be effective because she is easily reduced to a cartoon figure of the uppity, ingrate diva by her own mouth. I have no problem with Obama on the basis of his public persona, I even find him likable.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 1:23PM|#

You guys can dismiss these issues if you want (you probably live in blue states anyway) but down in the heartland they are going to sink Obama. Just watch it, hes going to be the next McGovern/Dukakis who can't connect to real Americans because of his elitist, globalist background.

Elemenope|4.12.08 @ 1:24PM|#

["waste of time theory"], I wonder if the Senator is willing to apply his principles consistently.

If he did, it would be a red letter day in American politics.

Of course, he also has to win an election, so I doubt somehow that he's going to say that *everyone's* pet peeve issues are pointless.

I suppose we could hope, though. I hear he's big on that.

|4.12.08 @ 1:27PM|#

Neil - who are you supporting for the Presidency? McCain "The Patriot" who stepped all over the First Amendment?

|4.12.08 @ 1:27PM|#

Max,
Don't blame him, he's just regurgitating something he read in the Corner. Be careful, it's vile stuff. Of course, Schiffren is Dan Quayle's former speechwriter, which says it all.

Kolohe|4.12.08 @ 1:28PM|#

They think unless you live in a handful of big cities and have a high-dollar liberal arts education you're stupid.

Neil, FWIW, I have a public university engineering education and live in the 54th largest metro area, and I also think you're an idiot.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 1:31PM|#

Ayn Randian McCain isn't perfect (I would've preferred Romney and then Huckabee) but hes a hundered times better than Obama.

He gets the important issues right--trade, the economy, taxes, the Global War on Terror, gun rights, abortion. I agree with him 80% of the time and so do most Americans. This is a center-right nation and people aren't going to vote for some globalist with a comsymp background and a race-hustling wife who wants to cut and run from the jihadists.

alan|4.12.08 @ 1:32PM|#

You guys can dismiss these issues if you want (you probably live in blue states anyway) but down in the heartland they are going to sink Obama.

It doesn't matter if he loses the blue states so long as he gets the red and purple ones.

I'm a Tarheel, btw.

Jay McDonough|4.12.08 @ 1:33PM|#

from swimming freestyle:

"This video is exactly how Obama should have raised the issue: In the environment these voters live and with an appropriate anger. Rural working class voters have gotten the shaft. They have every right to be frustrated and even bitter about what's happened to them.

Obama now finds himself having to address the issue defensively, Unfortunately, the issue will now likely be obscured by the hysterical anti-Obama rants by the Clintons and McCains. Obama gave them that gift when he spoke in San Francisco last weekend."

http://swimmingfreestyle.typepad.com

|4.12.08 @ 1:33PM|#

Since he was a former community activist and organizer, I have a really hard time believing that Obama thinks people are helpless without government.

You do understand that most leftist "community organizing" consists of organizing people to demand things from the government? They're not usually planting little vegetable gardens or babysitting each other's kids.

Face it, this comment is Obama's mask slipping again. He's a condescending crypto-Marxist who believes that rural whites exist in false consciousness, "clinging" to religion and guns and racism because they don't understand that the cause of all their problems are the big bad corporations. But don't worry, Obama will come and increase taxes and subsidies and regulations until everyone has a good job with nice benefits.

|4.12.08 @ 1:34PM|#

comment by MK2

What? I can't hear you. Speak up!

|4.12.08 @ 1:34PM|#

"They don't like America."

Hey Neil,
Liberal here. Not so much. They just don't like your retarded version of America.
Tell me wise one, which meangingless version of kissing the king's ring will get you to shut it? A plastic magnet on the bumper? A full-throated chorus of God Bless America?

You are a giant douche, a walking, talking confirmation of just about every stereotype my team has ever been guilty of perpetuating. Keep up the work.

|4.12.08 @ 1:35PM|#

you know, as a side note, when I was in Iraq we were told to drop the "Global" from the "Global War on Terror."

To claim that the campaign against those who attacked us on 9/11 should have gone to Iraq is NOT getting the GWOT "right". Also, Neil, I'll note your boy is enamored with the "green" movement. How conservative of him.

|4.12.08 @ 1:37PM|#

You guys can dismiss these issues if you want (you probably live in blue states anyway) but down in the heartland they are going to sink Obama.

Yeah, everybody I know wanted to lynch the guy when he came to Montana.

Episiarch|4.12.08 @ 1:39PM|#

Neil, does belonging to Team Red make you feel all warm and tingly? That you know who your enemies are (Team Blue)?

Thinking hard. Me join team, not need think.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 1:40PM|#

Ayn Randian he got the war right when he went against the Rumsfeld strategy and supported the Surge which is now working beautifully. He's been right from the beginning, striking the right course between Rumsfeldian failure/incompetence and liberal cut-and-running.

As for the environmentalist crap, hes just throwing a bone to them so we don't get something worse.


Pinko, How about you leave my guns, peoples religion, and their patriotism alone, how bout that? How about you RESPECT our Commander-in-Chief instead of mocking him and undermining our war effort? How about you see the threat of Islamofascism for what it is? That would be a start. "Pinko" is an appropriate name for you, btw, because you seem to be a Socialist.

|4.12.08 @ 1:43PM|#

J sub - so the left makes hay out of how dumb the right is, the right shoots back with how dumb the left is, and libertarians are just misanthropic?

We really need a more positive outlook. I don't think people are dumb so much as relatively misguided (albeit reasonable and intelligent, for the most part)

I only claim to speak for myself. Depending on the mood I'm in, my opinion of humanity changes quite substantially. I will never, be accused of over estimating my fellow humans intelligence. I really don't consider myself an elitest, as I've met many smarter than myself. But I do consider myself a realist, and I have met Scads, tonnes, oodles and gazillions of people less intelligent.

Not less human. Not less valuable. Not less kind, important, or good. Just less intelligent.
Shaq can realize that most people are shorter and weaker without being elitist. Why can't intelligent people do the same?

Episiarch|4.12.08 @ 1:43PM|#

How about you RESPECT our Commander-in-Chief instead of mocking him and undermining our war effort?

Why? Maybe he could respect the Constitution first. Do you automatically respect authority figures? That seems like bad policy to me. Would you respect Hillary if she became Prez?

alan|4.12.08 @ 1:45PM|#

How about you RESPECT our Commander-in-Chief instead of mocking him and undermining our war effort?

I don't have a commander in chief because I a citizen, a civilian, and most importantly, a free man. I find your sentiment their repugnant and anti-American.

You started it by trashing Blue states, so what the fuck are you getting defensive about, you sanctimonious jackass?

alan|4.12.08 @ 1:50PM|#

Did you show Bill Clinton the same respect?

Did you know the late, great Republican Senator Robert Taft questioned the motives of FDR in WW2?

Robot citizens make for good Soviets but make piss poor Americans.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 1:53PM|#

"Did you show Bill Clinton the same respect?"

In fact I did when he went into Haiti, Bosnia, and Kosovo. Also when he bombed Al Qaeda after they bombed our embassies. In matter of foreign policy I will ALWAYS show our President respect,and you should too (politics stops at the water's edge).

Yes, if Hillary became President I'd show her respect in foreign policy and actually believe shes not too bad in that area and would keep America safe. Its her socialist tendencies at home I don't like. But I believe she wants to keep this country safe.

I'm NOT sure Obama has the best interests of America at heart, though, if you know what I mean.

alan|4.12.08 @ 1:58PM|#

So was candidate George W. Bush wrong in criticizing Clinton's activism by promising a more humble foreign policy (I recall it getting the Weekly Standard dopes panties all in a twitter at the time)?

Mad Max|4.12.08 @ 1:58PM|#

"I'm NOT sure Obama has the best interests of America at heart, though, if you know what I mean."

I have in my hand - oops, not that hand, the other one - I have in my hand a list of known Communist operatives who are currently directing policy in the Barack Hussein al Mahdi Obama Presidential campaign.

Wake Up, People - America Is In Danger!

Kolohe|4.12.08 @ 1:59PM|#

who can't connect to real Americans because of his elitist, globalist background.

Neil, let's roll the tape:
Bush II - Yale/Harvard, Oil industry exec, Professional sports team owner
Clinton - Yale, Rhodes Scholar
Bush I - CIA Head, heir of New England blue bloods.
Reagan - Hollywood Actor
Carter - 1st president born in a hospital, Naval Officer
Ford - quarter century in US congress
Nixon - big city lawyer
Johnson - another life long senator
Kennedy - another Harvard, New England blue blood
Ike - won ww2

Yep, no elitist, globalist background in any dudes lately. (The streak does end with Truman)

And your boys: McCain, son and grandson of naval officers? Romney, son of a governor and himself CEO of hedge fund? These guys define global elitists (NTTAWTT).

I give you credit for your boy Huckabee however; he does in fact not have a single iota of the globalist elitist background. But that's because he is, in the words of another, a ignorant hillbilly wackjob preacher. Over this give me global elitism any day of the week (and twice on Sunday.)

|4.12.08 @ 2:01PM|#

Its her socialist tendencies at home I don't like.

right...as opposed to the Republican tendency to buy votes on credit, to the tune of a 9 trillion dollar deficit and a trillion-dollar war. Is it any wonder the dollar sunk, given our current tendency for our government to treat the American people as a credit cow to curry favor?

As for this "respect the CIC thing":

- My oath talks about the Constitution first.
- You're not a Servicemember, you don't HAVE a Commander in Chief.
- You're nationalistic militarism is really embarrassing. I fight for the Republic, not for one man.

|4.12.08 @ 2:01PM|#

In matter of foreign policy I will ALWAYS show our President respect,and you should too (politics stops at the water's edge).

Why am I suddenly thinking about Napolean Bonaparte?
Neil, you witless baboon, in our nation's history our government has engaged in immoral as well as stupid foreign policies and wars. Why would a "patriotic" American "respect" the perpetrator of these fuckups?

|4.12.08 @ 2:01PM|#

I'm NOT sure Obama has the best interests of America at heart, though, if you know what I mean.

Can someone explain the logic of this to me. If someone wanted to bring down the US from the inside, running for president is the worst fucking idea in the world. The key to being a double agent is people not paying attention to you. The only thing that gets more attention than a presidential candidate is Paris Hilton's cooter. If he wanted to bring down the US from the inside, he could do it from other positions a lot easier and with greater certainty, since winning the presidency is hardly a given.

|4.12.08 @ 2:04PM|#

Carter - 1st president born in a hospital, Naval Officer

Where were the rest born?

Episiarch|4.12.08 @ 2:05PM|#

I'm NOT sure Obama has the best interests of America at heart, though, if you know what I mean.

Obama is the Manchurian Candidate? Who is Angela Landsbury, then? His white racist grandma?

alan|4.12.08 @ 2:05PM|#

and talking about Communist sympathizers. Care to check Norm the Pod's background, Neil? I understand Bush and Cheney have him up for visits from time to time.

Check out that 2nd inaugural address Bush gave where at the heart of Bush's expansionist rhetoric is a quote from a Communist.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 2:06PM|#

Ayn Randian the debt isn't a big deal, neither is the cost of the war. As a percentage of our GDP its a drop in the bucket! As long as we keep growing our GDP, thereby keeping the debt down as a % of the GDP, we can easily afford a large debt. Its not a big deal, and not nearly as destructive as liberal tax hikes.

hittin\' \'n\'runnin\'|4.12.08 @ 2:06PM|#

"I didn't realize the vast majority of us were just waiting for the right handouts to be bought off"

Well, then, you're just dumb.

The candidate who promises free doctor's visits, a cure for cancer at no cost and cheap gas, cheap houses with mortgages at 3pc, and comfortable lifetime pensions at 50 while at the same time promising that he'll (or she'll - listen Hitlery) stop the homos from buttfucking eachother is a shoein to become president.

Mencken had a thing or two to say about the intelligence of the American voter.

Do you really think that at the bottom the average American joe is different from your average frenchie who loves his government because it's pretended to give him all of the above.

Mad Max|4.12.08 @ 2:06PM|#

While Barack Hussein abu Jihad al-Obama sips Chardonnay in the faculty lounge at Harvard, or quaffs a cappuccino in some overpriced Brooklyn coffee shop, plain ordinary Americans in the heartland are getting fed up. Fed up, I say! Fed up with the limpwristed liberal defeatists who scoff at the threat of Islamofascistdoodyheadism which threatens to drown America while liberal professors who can't park a bicycle straight laugh up their sleeves at hard-working ordinary blue-collar salt-of-the-earth Americans who . . .

Oh, look at the time! I'm late for my wife's Lamaze class.

alan|4.12.08 @ 2:11PM|#

Why would I shoe respect for a president who quotes and sips Chardonnay with Communist, Neil? My pappy put those fuckers in the ground to keep us free, and there your man is dining with them.

alan|4.12.08 @ 2:13PM|#

shoe

Freudian slip. As in shoe up his pasty Constitution hatin' ass.

Kolohe|4.12.08 @ 2:14PM|#

Where were the rest born?

I'm guessing in their (parents') homes, the same as just about everyone for the first 8000 years (more or less) of human civilization up until 1920CE or so.

Ali|4.12.08 @ 2:25PM|#

Carter - 1st president born in a hospital, Naval Officer

Born in a hospital? That elitist!

|4.12.08 @ 2:26PM|#

"How about you leave my guns, peoples religion, and their patriotism alone, how bout that?

Check. I was singling you out for being a total fuckwit.
"How about you RESPECT our Commander-in-Chief instead of mocking him and undermining our war effort?"

I didn't do that. I'm not in the military. And...did I already point out that you are a drooling mouthbreather?
"How about you see the threat of Islamofascism for what it is?"
Yeah, a nuisance that calls for (get ready for it, cover up your codpiece) GLOBAL police work.

"That would be a start."
Really, you'd shut your chawhole if I just did this much.

"Pinko" is an appropriate name for you, btw, because you seem to be a Socialist."
Precisely, genius...it gets a rise out of fuckwits like you who still have a coldwar hangover and wake up sweating thinking oh noes teh commies.

|4.12.08 @ 2:29PM|#

1. Please just ignore Neil.

2. Isn't Obama just reading out of that book "What's the Matter with Kansas"?

hittin\' \'n\'runnin\'|4.12.08 @ 2:33PM|#

"How about you RESPECT our Commander-in-Chief instead of mocking him..."

Holy fucking shit. Is this guy for fucking real?

|4.12.08 @ 2:35PM|#

In matter of foreign policy I will ALWAYS show our President respect,and you should too (politics stops at the water's edge).

Upon reflection, I realized how really dumb this is:

1. We're not at the water's edge, we're in America, criticizing our government's foreign policy
2. The "politics stops at the water's edge" is supposed to be an admonition that you don't speak ill of Americans and American policy to foreign countries or nationals. That is, Bush can bash Obama (or vice-versa), but if they're together at NATO, then they stand together.

It has absolutely nothing to do with worshiping the President in all times and in all places with respect to foreign policy. I suppose that Alexander Hamilton was being unpatriotic when he said that TJ had "a womanish attachment to France and a womanish resentment of Great Britain."?? Yeah, damn him and his traitorous ways!

|4.12.08 @ 2:42PM|#

1. Please just ignore Neil.

I would, but if we never engage the dumb ones, well, how are we going to see any progress?

Ali|4.12.08 @ 2:42PM|#

"Pinko" is an appropriate name for you, btw, because you seem to be a Socialist.

I think "purple" is the new socialist.

Neil-

You should may be consider watching this 3-part film. It is an eye-(and-brain-)opener.

|4.12.08 @ 2:42PM|#

1. Please just ignore Neil.

B.P. You don't understand. Neil serves a valuable purpose around here. He is rapidly becoming the H&R equivalent of a punching bag. Get a little light practice in without any danger of being hit back.

Other Matt|4.12.08 @ 2:44PM|#

Holy fucking shit. Is this guy for fucking real?

No.

Hey, dontcha all know it's against some rule somplace to toss out disparaging remarks about Obamamama before joe gets up in the morn?

Elemenope|4.12.08 @ 2:48PM|#

Thinking hard. Me join team, not need think.

Speaking of teams, anyone see BSG on Friday? I mean, holy shit.

alan|4.12.08 @ 2:51PM|#

Joe is probably in the living room watching America's Team, The Boston Red Sox play some ball.

Ali|4.12.08 @ 2:52PM|#

Speaking of teams, anyone see BSG on Friday? I mean, holy shit.

BSG, seriously, what the hell is that?

|4.12.08 @ 2:58PM|#

Battlestar Galactica?

Elemenope|4.12.08 @ 3:01PM|#

Yes, Battlestar Galactica. Since this has become the de facto Friday thread, and there are plenty of fans who hang out here, I thought I might ask.

Ali|4.12.08 @ 3:04PM|#

So, who won the battle? The good guys or the bad guys? Us or them?

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 3:07PM|#

I think I found the source for the bitterness quote. It came to me after a few more cups of coffee and a couple of glasses of murh-lot (you know, I am one of those 'heartland' types).

In the documentry by D. Knight, To Serve Man we learn that folks from rural areas truly are bitter, quite "gamey" tasting. City people, not so much. That was a key reason why the visitors concentrated on the large cities, rather than the rural areas.

J sub D | April 12, 2008, 10:25am | #,

Are you saying that the actions of the corporate elite don't have a large effect on the economy?

Yes and the evidence you brought is proof of a small effect, that is corrected by the market shortly. The Wal*Mart does not really fit as they are still successful by not making the same mistakes as A&P, K-Mart and others. When they do, some better firm will replace them as a market leader.

You are f*ing kidding me?
That is an outrage. Call the parks commisioner and verbally slap him around for a while. All of her pioneering work in computer science was done as a naval officer.

I believe it is on private property, created by the owners of the apartment complex where she lived near the Pentagon. It is across the street from the Pentagon Row shopping mall. If you watch the opening sequence of No Way Out, you can see the apartment building, second one from I-395, IIRC. But that was shot before the mall was built and while Adm. Hopper was still alive.

Mo,

The most of the presidents before Mr. Carter were born at home rather than in a hospital. Mr. Truman would have probably wished folks believe he was born on a Grayhound bus rolling down highway 41, but I do not believe that was the case.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 3:17PM|#

Allahamba O'Govern just lost the election, hes really getting slammed for his "bitter" comment even by other liberal Democrats.

But what I would I know? I'm just a "typical white person" whose "bitter" and "Clings to guns".

What an elitist.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 3:19PM|#

Hey, pinko, want to defend Obama about that quote? What do you think he meant by that?

Are you going to denounce it, or do you also think that people who own guns, go to church, and drive SUVs, and shop at Wal-Mart are just sutpid and bitter waiting to be enlightened by their San Francisco liberal masters?

Ali|4.12.08 @ 3:21PM|#

Neil- You're paranoid.

Elemenope|4.12.08 @ 3:21PM|#

Are you going to denounce it, or do you also think that people who own guns, go to church, and drive SUVs, and shop at Wal-Mart are just stupid and bitter...

That's not what he said.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 3:27PM|#

Do you denounce his dispariging statements about white, rural, working class gun owners and religious people, Elemenope?

|4.12.08 @ 3:28PM|#

Neil, you have some substantiative criticisms of your positions to address.

I understand, though, that latte-sipping "libruls" and your bone-headed KULTUR WAR are more important hot-topics than actually thinking.

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 3:29PM|#

I buy my shotgun shells at the Wal*Mart, usually drive over there in my Jeep. However, I do use the finest organic hydrocarbons for fuel to/from. Haven't been to Church lately, but the only time I go is when I am out with some chick who is nuts about going.

Elemenope|4.12.08 @ 3:32PM|#

Do you denounce his disparaging statements about white, rural, working class gun owners and religious people, Elemenope?

Have you stopped beating your wife, Neil?

That's what we in the business call a "loaded question".

|4.12.08 @ 3:33PM|#

Do you denounce his dispariging statements about white, rural, working class gun owners and religious people

I do renounce him.

Do you denounce his flag-hating ways and his cloaked Islamism?

I do renounce them.

Ali|4.12.08 @ 3:35PM|#

Why is Michael Young discussing local politics? I thought he's the middle east guy, no?

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 3:38PM|#

I thought he's the middle east guy, no?

Yea, but this thread is about Senator B. Hussein Obama, so I guess it counts.

|4.12.08 @ 3:40PM|#

his thread is about Senator B. Hussein Obama, so I guess it counts.

Please tell me that you're using that in an ironic, hipster fashion rather than as having some kind of significance...

Ali|4.12.08 @ 3:41PM|#

Yea, but this thread is about Senator B. Hussein Obama, so I guess it counts.

Oh, yes, you're right. Because of the Chicago church things with Wright, I totally forgot about the "Hussein" factor and the fact that Obama is a madrassah-educated Islamist.

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 3:43PM|#

A_R,

Must I tag every comment with [sarcasim] for you?

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 3:45PM|#

Ali,

Also, don't forget, for many on the West Coast, Chicago is the "Middle East", sometimes even to the geography majors.

|4.12.08 @ 3:47PM|#

I am just a dumb LT, so take that FWIW.

Sometimes, though, the snark, sarcasm and "ironic usage of terrible terms" gets so deep in here that I get confused.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 3:51PM|#

Ok, is this a loaded statement?

"Do you denounce what Barack Obama said about working class white voters?"

I think everyone on this thread should answer.

I denounce him.

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 3:52PM|#

No way! I thought you would be a CPT by now!

Neil|4.12.08 @ 3:54PM|#

Ayn Randian, you're in the military right? I guess you can tell us first hand that the surge is working? Do you support General Patreaus?

|4.12.08 @ 3:55PM|#

Neil - where is the word "white" in the full quote? Did I miss it? Or are you playing at racial identity politics?

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 3:55PM|#

Neil,

If you can not glean my attitude toward Sen. Obama, along with the attitudes of several others here, then there are no words or phrasing, simple enough in the Englis language, for you to understand.

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 3:57PM|#

Or in the English language either, for that matter.

|4.12.08 @ 4:00PM|#

No way! I thought you would be a CPT by now!

For some reason the government sees fit to codify discrimination against Reservists, even though all the Army branches are expected to perform and deploy at the same level.

My Active duty brethren make CPT in 39 months from commission date; I make it five years from commission date. Don't ask me why.

Ayn Randian, you're in the military right? I guess you can tell us first hand that the surge is working? Do you support General Patreaus?

- Yes, I am.
- I can't tell you whether it was working on a theater-wide level. I can tell you that the portion of Baghdad I was in (SW) got a lot better around November, but my understanding is that those gains may have been reversed.
- I support whoever the Army tells me to support, unless he's a criminal.

Believe it or not, Neil, most of us on the tactical level really don't know or care much about the dudes with stars on their chests, only that we have to clean up the AO when they come to visit. That's the truth.

Fritz|4.12.08 @ 4:01PM|#

Neil--

Nothing you've since posted seems to address what I originally said. Reagan may have "understood the heartland"(whatever that means), and he spoke eloquently of American values, but behind the actor was a corporation of Religious Rightists and neoconservatives who set much of his administration's agenda. The neoconservatives' push in the 90s for another "Reaganesque" president was a push for someone who could appeal to the public while their guys could conduct policy in relative anonymity. Since Obama's strengths are largely rhetorical, and since he seems inexperienced enough on actual policy issues, we could possibly see a repeat of that dynamic.

Besides that, your juxtoposition of "heartland" and "Real American" with "San Francisco-Chicago-Harvard big city" seems odd to me. All of those places happen to still exist in America (really!), but the fact that they're different from your own ideals makes you act as if they don't. In effect you seem to be doing the very thing you accuse Obama of in his statement.

This gets to the heart of distinctions between the left's and the right's views on modern culture. Leftists hate modern culture because its epicenter isn't the state, or collective political action, which they tend to worship. Rightists, on the other hand, really loathe, fear and try to block out the heterogenity that is actual American culture; they prefer to think of their rustic ideal of the "heartland" as the Real America, even if it isn't. The left and the right, when presented with aspects of culture they don't like, each take refuge in their own religions, in this way.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 4:01PM|#

Come on, Ayn Randian, blacks vote Democrat 95% of the time hes obviously talking about white voters. You know, the "typical" ones like his grandma which he threw under the bus.

|4.12.08 @ 4:04PM|#

I never understood the "City Mouse/Country Mouse" split, although I guess the whole "Cosmo/Paleo" thang is another manifestation of it.

I mean, I work in an affluent neighborhood in Columbus, OH, and I still hear people say astonishingly-dumb yokeltarian kind of things. One lady said that Hillary was trying to bring socialism to the United States, just like Pincohet.

blargh

|4.12.08 @ 4:05PM|#

I believe tha average republican voter is a moron. This is somewhat counterbalanced by my firm conviction that the average democrat voter is of sub normal intelligence as well.

J sub D -- so you believe the average American is below average?

|4.12.08 @ 4:05PM|#

Come on, Ayn Randian, blacks vote Democrat 95% of the time hes obviously talking about white voters.

There's a difference between saying "The voters about whom he is likely talking are white" and saying that he's "attacking white voters". One is statistical fact; the other is loaded race-baiting.

SIV|4.12.08 @ 4:06PM|#

Oh, yes, you're right. Because of the Chicago church things with Wright, I totally forgot about the "Hussein" factor and the fact that Obama is a madrassah-educated Islamist.

That is one of the problems with Comrade Obama, he can't make up his mind what kind of America Hater he really is!

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 4:08PM|#

Ahem . . . most of us on the tactical level really don't know or care much about the dudes with stars on their chests . . .

What is wrong with the senior Aviators and Parachutists?

|4.12.08 @ 4:09PM|#

Where were the rest born?

Log cabins, or possibly mangers. Like FDR.

|4.12.08 @ 4:11PM|#

there are no words or phrasing, simple enough in the Englis Anglais language, for you to understand.

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 4:12PM|#

PB, no hable

Neil|4.12.08 @ 4:13PM|#

Come on Ayn Randian. What if John McCain said something like this? :

"There are a lot of young, urban voters in the inner city who are bitter because they're dependent on welfare, dependent on the government, and they grow up in a culture of dependancy. So they cling to welfare hand-outs and identity politics."

You and the liberal media would be screaming RACIST! RACIST! wouldn't you?

More P.C. double standard.

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 4:14PM|#

Wait! Did I miss a warning from the Left that whitie is still keeping me down?

This PC stuff is really making me miss the key warnings.

|4.12.08 @ 4:14PM|#

What is wrong with the senior Aviators and Parachutists?

They have their heads in the clouds?

(ooo...bad joke)

Actually, I've only met a couple senior and master airborne dudes and ONE guy who did the Panama jump.

|4.12.08 @ 4:14PM|#

I will never, be accused of over estimating my fellow humans intelligence. I really don't consider myself an elitest, as I've met many smarter than myself.

J sub D -- I think you ran afoul of joe's law on this bad puppy. I count 4 errors here.

Does this call for a drink?

|4.12.08 @ 4:16PM|#

You and the liberal media would be screaming RACIST! RACIST! wouldn't you?

Ready...

...
...
...

No. I wouldn't.

You know the media isn't liberal: it's definitely "moderate with some lap-dog tendencies toward government", just like much of America. I wish they WERE liberal, then they'd actually investigate the Drug War and the War in Iraq.

|4.12.08 @ 4:19PM|#

There are more races than black and white. Most of them are working class too.

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 4:19PM|#

A_R,

Partial my-bad there. I am still used to the "old" uniforms. When I read "stars on chest" I thought senior qualification badges, not rank, that now hangs in the center of the chest, rather than on collars or sholders (dress uniform).

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 4:21PM|#

Most of them are working class too.

And their best friend comes from the bottom of a glass . . .

MK2|4.12.08 @ 4:21PM|#

God bless
Libertopia,
The land that never was
What is,is and one can spend it
But what never was will never end
And it's so easy to defend it
God bless
Libertopia!

|4.12.08 @ 4:23PM|#

J sub D -- so you believe the average American is below average?

I am soooo embarrassed. You caught me. I meant to convey that average isn't really all that smart. It's more of a realistic (pessamistic?) view of the human race. I'll try to be more careful with my phrasing in the future.

Eric Dondero|4.12.08 @ 4:24PM|#

Did you all catch Obama's response now up on YouTube and HotAir.com? Priceless.

Check out how choreographed the event is. All whites in the background, except one single black lady and a Filipina straight out of central casting. They even have a fat white guy in a bright red shirt with the letters USMC emblazoned loudly. And next to him an old white guy with a VFW cap.

And scores and scores of soccer moms nodding their heads to Obama's every word.

They are experts at image. Unfortunately, bloggers and internet junkies are far too sophisticated these days to believe his choreographed spin.

|4.12.08 @ 4:27PM|#

Oh great, Dondi's here to bestow upon all of us how open-ended wars are "libertarian".

Dondi - I don't see the substantiative difference between that kind of "image spin" than any other kind. The fact that you read racial significance into it says more about you than him.

|4.12.08 @ 4:29PM|#

Guy - hey, I wore BDUs too (year of 2000 enlistee), but I just adopted the right terminology faster, which is easier for us young ones :-D

Ali|4.12.08 @ 4:30PM|#

Unfortunately, bloggers and internet junkies are far too sophisticated these days to believe his choreographed spin.

It's not like you, Eric, don't know anything about the art of spin.

Hey, with Obama not getting your precious support, tell me, Eric, who is more mainstream libertarian --McCain or Hillary?

alan|4.12.08 @ 4:30PM|#

You know the media isn't liberal: it's definitely "moderate with some lap-dog tendencies toward government", just like much of America. I wish they WERE liberal, then they'd actually investigate the Drug War and the War in Iraq.

Every time I pick up the NYT, it seems to me they are backing Neil's 'COMMANDER_AND_CHIEF' (cue Souza) in his latest shit for brains iteration of foreign policy. Not only are the Neil's beating a dead horse, they are splashing red paint on her establishment gray coat.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 4:31PM|#

So, Ayn Randian, I guess you agree with B. Hussein Obama on his statements right?

Ali|4.12.08 @ 4:31PM|#

It's not like you, Eric, don't know anything about the art of spin.

Actually, Eric, lest you believe you're good at spin, you suck at it.

Ali|4.12.08 @ 4:33PM|#

So, Ayn Randian, I guess you agree with B. Hussein Obama on his statements right?

Neil, have you ever considered the possibility that if someone disagrees with you may actually not be in agreement with the other side (if such other side in fact does exist)?

alan|4.12.08 @ 4:33PM|#

Amazing, no one feeds that troll over there who is singing to himself, yet he comes back for more peanuts?

|4.12.08 @ 4:37PM|#

Bwa ha ha, I love watching Dondero get pwned by a Muslim.

see, Ali, Neil never would have considered that because he lives the slogan "If you're not with us, you're against us". Some people are just how they are.

|4.12.08 @ 4:39PM|#

I want to be the first. DONDEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

alan|4.12.08 @ 4:41PM|#

Ali, I think my Redder State than thou response confused the poor bastard. Would a pansy like Frum have a place in my red stateadministration? No.

Would (so-called) former Communist be giving me advice on foreign policy? Hell no.

Would the speech writer who inserted John Reed quotes in one of my speeches be hanging from a tree on the White House lawn with shrapnel between the eyes? Of course.

Ali|4.12.08 @ 4:42PM|#

Seriously though, AR, I really wonder how many more Neils, Donderos, etc actually exist out there?

|4.12.08 @ 4:48PM|#

Seriously though, AR, I really wonder how many more Neils, Donderos, etc actually exist out there?

Unfortunately, people cannot take the good points that the Red Team makes and separate it from the crazy pants stuff that they say to sell books and make television appearances.

For example, if you look at Rush Limbaugh, he makes a lot of economically conservative points and, from my understanding, is a relative social hendonist (divorces, drinks, pill-popping, girlfriends and massive estates) and disdainful of the evangelicals. For whatever strange reason, the evangelicals glom onto him even though he'd sooner die than play golf with a Moonie. He just makes money off of them.

Sometimes I think that all of the talking heads really just disagree with each other to make money. Secretly they all drink together at Washington bars and figure out how to manipulate the "proles" next.

If War is good for Business, than the Culture War is the Golden Goose.

Ali|4.12.08 @ 4:48PM|#

Hey, alan, wikipedia says that Frum is a senior (senior!) editor of The American Prospect. How the hell can that be? I thought the Prospect was liberal. I am confused.

Elemenope|4.12.08 @ 4:49PM|#

Check out how choreographed the event is. All whites in the background, except one single black lady and a Filipina straight out of central casting. They even have a fat white guy in a bright red shirt with the letters USMC emblazoned loudly. And next to him an old white guy with a VFW cap.

Lots of white people. A smattering of color. A few vets. Sounds pretty much like America to me.

You know, a guy's giving a speech and you spend your time staring at the crowd. But of course, why would you listen to the speech. He's from an Indonesian madrassa: Nothing he says will be the truth, right?

And scores and scores of soccer moms nodding their heads to Obama's every word.

As is their right, if they wish. You do believe that, right? They can choose who to support?

They are experts at image. Unfortunately, bloggers and internet junkies are far too sophisticated these days...

Yeah, OK. You had me at "hello" Dondero. The gifts you give to your movement are immeasurable.

Elemenope|4.12.08 @ 4:52PM|#

Would the speech writer who inserted John Reed quotes in one of my speeches be hanging from a tree on the White House lawn with shrapnel between the eyes? Of course.

You're a pleasant fellow.

Ali|4.12.08 @ 4:54PM|#

Eric,

BTW, my real name is not Ali. There!

|4.12.08 @ 4:56PM|#

Michael Young, in attempting to chastise Obama for failing to understand the difference between political activity and private or community life manages to misunderstand the difference between political activity and private or community life.

People don't end up focusing on issues like the right to bear arms, gay marriage, faith-based and family-based issues, and the like, because of bitterness against Washington or a sense that they can't effect change there. People focus on these issues because modern American political culture is, effectively, about subcultures, variety, pursuing parochial aims, and shaping one's identity and personal agendas independently of the state.

Obama's comments weren't about people living their lives, pursuing parochial aims, and shaping their personal identities. He was talking about how they VOTE - how they behave SPECIFICALLY IN THE REALM OF POLITICAL ACTIVITY.

He's not talking about about people who take up shooting sports or go to church in contrast with voting in their economic interest, but about people who VOTE on gun issues or VOTE on religious issues or VOTE on immigration issues, as opposed to voting for their economic interest.

alan|4.12.08 @ 4:58PM|#

Ayn_Randian,

Many years ago, I heard Limbaugh on his show braving the waters on religion. He expressed doubt about the legitimacy of the Book of Revelations as a canonical work in the bible(to be fair, it does contradict matters that are attributed to Jesus). If this was well known by the evangelicals, his ratings would sink.

Pretty surprising he would tread there, but he did.

|4.12.08 @ 4:59PM|#

Sometimes I think that all of the talking heads really just disagree with each other to make money. Secretly they all drink together at Washington bars and figure out how to manipulate the "proles" next.

impoceros

|4.12.08 @ 5:01PM|#

joe, how cynical of a worldview does Obama have to think that voting for other reasons other than economic interest is somehow a bad thing?

Shoot, joe, you've got libertarians thinking that it'd be better to vote for Obama (who's probably against our economic outlook) on foreign policy grounds. Is that different in some way?

Neil|4.12.08 @ 5:01PM|#

Good luck with that long, complicated explination out in the heartland, Joe. It won't fly there.

alan|4.12.08 @ 5:03PM|#

You're a pleasant fellow.

I learned everything in politics from Hillary and Pinochet (this is going to kill the hipster factor, but scroll up to Neil's accusation of Michelle Obama's parents being Communist sympathizers, and you'll see what I am up to).

|4.12.08 @ 5:04PM|#

Yes! Dondero has endorsed McCain and Clinton!

All over, folks.

|4.12.08 @ 5:06PM|#

Indeed, P Brooks, I will thrash them from top to bottomus.

alan - I'm sort of surprised by that as well, not that he thinks that way, but that he'd say it.

I was listening to Jason Lewis stand in for Rush this week, and he went on and on about how the tax incentives for employer-provided healthcare is a bad thing, about how insuring a check-up is just as silly as insuring oil changes, about how the housing bailout is a bad thing because we have to let the market work...etc. etc.

It's obvious to me that conservatives like him and Rush are not necessarily the enemy.

Elemenope|4.12.08 @ 5:07PM|#

He expressed doubt about the legitimacy of the Book of Revelations [sic] as a canonical work in the bible (to be fair, it does contradict matters that are attributed to Jesus). If this was well known by the evangelicals, his ratings would sink.

To be fair, both Martin Luther and John Calvin thought it was an apocryphal piece of crap, and many of the early church fathers agreed (from what we can tell from their writings).

Many rank-and-file Christians are aware of this; some bibles even make note of it in a preface to the text (e.g. the copy I own does, and it's a fairly mainstream distribution). So it might not place him in as hot water as you might think.

|4.12.08 @ 5:07PM|#

Ayn Randian,

joe, how cynical of a worldview does Obama have to think that voting for other reasons other than economic interest is somehow a bad thing?

Not cycnical at all, when talking about a population that consistently ranks economic issues at the top of their concerns, who then vote based on other issues they themselves consider less important. Remember, he was talking specifically about blue-collar workers in midwestern states that have seen significant economic displacement.

I don't think it takes any cynicism whatsoever to think it's regrettable that people despair of the political system addressing the issues that are most important to them.

|4.12.08 @ 5:08PM|#

It's not like you, Eric, don't know anything about the art of spin.

Don't listen to him, Dondero. He's a fifth columnist of the Muslim Plot To Destroy America. See item #19.

First, Hit & Run, then... the World!1!

|4.12.08 @ 5:08PM|#

Neil | April 12, 2008, 5:01pm | #

Good luck with that long, complicated explination out in the heartland, Joe

Wow, what a fucking elitist. So, Neil, do you think it's geography or genetics that makes people in the midwest incapable of rational thought?

I guess people like me and Barack Obama hold the ability of blue collar people in the midwest to think and understand in higher esteem than you.

Elemenope|4.12.08 @ 5:09PM|#

you'll see what I am up to

Oh, I know, alan. The "redder-state-than-thou" ploy. Problem is, you need to turn into a caricature to pull it off, and even then folks like Neil will swear they bleed the American Flag in technicolor and quote from Pauline epistles backwards in Hungarian just to out-Jesus you.

|4.12.08 @ 5:13PM|#

Especially after the attempt to stampede the American public into a racial panic over Obama's pastor failed - he's actually doing better vs. Hillary than before that story hit - it's a particularly bad idea to bet against the American public's ability to think at a mature level.

|4.12.08 @ 5:14PM|#

Just for Neil's edification, I'm an undecided voter in Ohio, probably the most important* state for the election. And you're not helping your side in anyway of winning me over.

Is it too much to ask for that prominent conservatives get disaffected with McCain and endorse Barr, btw? I don't understand the hold that the Iraq war has on the conservative rank-and-file.

hittin\' \'n\'runnin\'|4.12.08 @ 5:15PM|#

"Haven't been to Church lately, but the only time I go is when I am out with some chick who is nuts about going."

Got to admit, man. I'll go to church if there's a chance I'll get a piece of ass too.

Ali|4.12.08 @ 5:15PM|#

Happy Jack- That is some very entertaining stuff in that link you provide!

Neil|4.12.08 @ 5:16PM|#

Joe people out here don't appreciate costal elites telling us why we should be bitter. We LIKE going to church and having guns, we're not stupid.

What he said was insulting and hes just lost the election. Like McGovern and Dukakis he just can't connect to people out here.

Hes a big city machine politician, and he won't fly.

AR-

Conservatives won't vote for Barr because we don't want our chance for McCain winning to be Nader'ed.

McCain is tied in the polls. TIED even though everyone said this would be a big Democrat year. Hes even tied in New York State against Obama!

Its 1972 all over again.

|4.12.08 @ 5:17PM|#

Because I want Dondero to answer directly (and I'm not really afraid of the internet like that), I'm going to go with my real name on this one and ask:

Eric Dondero, why do you see significance in the racial make-up of the crowd at an Obama rally? Are you really trying to claim that Republican candidates don't do the same thing? (that is, make it appear that their support comes from an average "Cross-Section of America"). And why do you feel the need to race-bait the black candidate?

|4.12.08 @ 5:17PM|#

A-R,

I don't understand the hold that the Iraq war has on the conservative rank-and-file.

You have to go back to the post-9/11 political strategy that Karl Rove and the Republicans adopted. They purposely vociferously worked to make issues of terrorism and war into partisan wedges. Being a conservative became synonymous with idealizing Commander Guy and supporting the Iraq War. Being a liberal meant you wanted to give Saddam Hussein a backrub, and let Osama bin Laden put your daughter in a burka.

|4.12.08 @ 5:19PM|#

Yes! Dondero has endorsed McCain and Clinton!

With Dondi's track record, Michelle might as well start picking out a new china pattern for state dinners.

|4.12.08 @ 5:19PM|#

Conservatives won't vote for Barr because we don't want our chance for McCain winning to be Nader'ed.

McCain is NOT a conservative, and it's about time you "conservatives" started voting your conscience and your beliefs rather than worry about "The Other Side". This is why I'm not a Republican anymore: so-called "conservatives" really just hate Democrats, instead of being true conservatives a la Bob Barr and WFB.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 5:21PM|#

AR sure McCain is a maverick, but is still much more conservative than B. Hussein Obama, by a LOT. The ACU gave McCain a very good rating, while Obama got a ZERO!

McCain will be a one-termer anyway due to his age, and then we can get a real conservative like Jindal in there in 2012.

|4.12.08 @ 5:21PM|#

That's funny, Neil, I thought Barack Obama lost the election when the Reverend Wright video broke, and when he gave the A More Perfect Union speech.

I don't think you're going to be able to convince people in the midwest who are bitter about what the economy has been doing that Barack Obama is bad for noticing that.

This insistence that everything is JUST FINE and everybody is happy happy happy in the midwest - especially blue collar workers - is what is not going to fly this election.

alan|4.12.08 @ 5:22PM|#

Elemenope,

You are probably right. However, he might also be so riled by the idea he actually looks into these people like Norm the Pod. Since Neil is not familiar with dialectical methodology, he assumes the Pod is RedBloodist like himself, and when he finds out that when the Neocons speak of democracy they have something quite a bit different in mind by the meaning of that word than, say, Alexis DeTocqueville, he might further question his misguided allegiance.

I'm probably too much an optimist, though.

|4.12.08 @ 5:23PM|#

I do agree, though, that Bobby Jindal is going to be the GOP's nominee in 2012.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 5:24PM|#

Why is he tied in NEW YORK STATE then joe? NEW YORK! Against a Republican! LOL!

Looks like the Democrat Party is unable to hit the football once again.

Ali|4.12.08 @ 5:25PM|#

sure McCain is a maverick

I have no idea what "maverick" means in that context. What is so maverickish about McCain. Would someone explain?

|4.12.08 @ 5:25PM|#

joe - yeah, I remember being at the 2003 CPAC and expressing doubts about the war and wearing an ACLU button.

But I've always had a little hedonist/libertine in me. That's how I ended up in Playboy.

This insistence that everything is JUST FINE and everybody is happy happy happy in the midwest - especially blue collar workers - is what is not going to fly this election.

joe, I don't see anything particularly "progressive" about bashing free-trade agreements or pandering to unions.

|4.12.08 @ 5:26PM|#

how cynical of a worldview does Obama have to think that voting for other reasons other than economic interest is somehow a bad thing?

There are tons of libertarians on this very board that think this very same thing. Think of the "Kerry would be worse" folks or the "how could you vote for Obama/Hillary when they'll raise taxes" group.

Elemenope|4.12.08 @ 5:27PM|#

We LIKE going to church and having guns...

If you're in the Midwest, then I seriously doubt anybody is gonna try to take either of those away from you anytime soon. And hey, if they try you can always just shoot them and then pray for their immortal souls.

I mean, seriously? Church? Are you for fucking serious? Who's gonna take church away from you?

|4.12.08 @ 5:30PM|#

Regardless, I hope McCain does get "Nader'd"...the Republican party needs to get it handed to them, go out in the wilderness and get rid of this neocon/national greatness/big spending contingent that is driving all of us away.

I'm so pissed at the Republican Party that I want to see them split.

|4.12.08 @ 5:30PM|#

Neil | April 12, 2008, 5:24pm | #

Why is he tied in NEW YORK STATE then joe?

Because Obama and Hillary are still whacking at each other, and McCain has been able to stage a Look How Wonderful I Am Tour without taking many shots form his opponents.

McCain started closing the gap immediately after he secured the nomination, and the trend has been steady since then. It's even started to creep back down over the past week or so, to where Obama is now a point or so ahead nationally (after being a point or so behind for a couple of weeks).

Elemenope|4.12.08 @ 5:31PM|#

That's how I ended up in Playboy.

Hey A_R, good article.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 5:33PM|#

Thats right Joe. This is the best Democrat Primary EVER!

I love it! The Democrat Party is going to loose because the liberals can't decide which victim/affirmative action group (blacks or femminists) to reward!

|4.12.08 @ 5:33PM|#

Ayn Randian,

You don't see anything progressive about environmental and worker protections? It is their absence that Obama (and Hillary) have criticized.

You don't see anything progressive about unions?

Um. OK.

|4.12.08 @ 5:35PM|#

Neil,

If a nominating contest had gone this long under the old schedule, you could very well have been right.

But even the worst case scenario has this contest decided in June, five full months before the election.

To put that in perspective, there as a "conservative revolt" against McCain in the media less than a month ago.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 5:38PM|#

LOL Joe! Its going to be decided at the convention. Hillary isn't dropping out. There might even be riots in Denver like 1968.

You need three months to unite a party usually.

That means....September..October...OVER!

I never thought Hillary Clinton would give a Republican an easy victory, but I'm happy to see it happen!

|4.12.08 @ 5:38PM|#

Happy Jack,
That list was awesome. My favorite was, "5. Take control of the media and the internet by buying the corporations or a controlling stock." I mean a Jewish group spreading fear about another group taking over the media. Hell, the whole thing reads like someone copied the Protocols for the Elders of Zion into Word and did a Find-Replace of Jewish with Muslim.

|4.12.08 @ 5:39PM|#

joe - in terms of "progress", no, I don't see that much as progress. I suppose the connotative definition of progressive is what you're after, but I can't understand pandering to unions as truly being "progressive". Also, there's an element of yokeltarian "THEY TOOK OUR JERBS" to the NAFTA-bashing that Obama decided to engage in Ohio. If Ohio wants to get its shit straight, we should stop being a high-tax, high-regulation, so-con/econ-lib state and quit blaming others and glomming onto others who do.

Hey A_R, good article.

Thanks! That Coyote Ugly is in D.C.'s Chinatown, and it was 5 bucks "All you can drink night"...I didn't make it to the conference the next day, needless to say...

|4.12.08 @ 5:40PM|#

Yeah, the forced laughter thing: it doesn't really come across the way you're hoping.

Anyway, the contest is more or less done already. Hillary can keep being a pain in the ass if she wants, but she can't win. It's going to be settled, and the winner going into general election mode, months before the convention. It's just a question of how many months.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 5:43PM|#

Hillary already said shes going to stay in until August Joe. There are going to be some nasty battles at the convention.

Hillary is a b***ch and will use her knowledge of dirty politics to make it as hard as possible for Hussein at the convention. Battles after battle on all the comitteees.

Meanwhile, John McCain will be well rested after a unified convention and go onto win, especially wiht all of B. Hussein Obama's boneheaded statements and his wife.

|4.12.08 @ 5:44PM|#

One final thought: how well do you think someone who thinks that equating Barack Obama to the New Deal is a slam actually understands and speaks for blue collar voters in the the midwest?

Mr. Young, you don't like the New Deal? Congratulations. A whole lotta people do, you know.

Ayn Randian, you don't like unions? That's nice. Do you know who really, really does like unions?

|4.12.08 @ 5:46PM|#

Sure, Neil. Even though the ranking elders of the Democratic Party have all said that the contest will be finished before then, only people who call Obama "Hussein" really understand the awesome power of teh Hidlebeast.

No, you're totally right; she owns the party, and she's just going to crush him on Super Tuesday.

|4.12.08 @ 5:48PM|#

Ayn Randian, you don't like unions? That's nice. Do you know who really, really does like unions?

In theory I do, but I don't much care for American Unions and the way the leadership screws the members.

And no, I don't know who really, really does like unions.

|4.12.08 @ 5:50PM|#

Meanwhile, John McCain will be well rested after a unified convention and a nice nap, before catching the Early Bird special at Denny's.

all of B. Hussein Obama's boneheaded statements

Yeah, poor guy. It's just so unfortunate he's so bad with words, and so toothless when it comes to pushing back when his political opponents try to use rhetorical ploys and tight edits to frame him.

Poor fella, he might have gone somewhere in politics, if it weren't for that handicap.

|4.12.08 @ 5:51PM|#

A-R,

Blue-collar workers in traditional manufacturing states, really, really like unions.

Although they could probably tell you a whole lot more about their problems than you could tell them.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 5:53PM|#

BTW Joe, the next shoe to drop is that Obama participated in Farakkahn's Million Man March.

What do you think swing voters will think of that?

Elemenope|4.12.08 @ 5:54PM|#

Oh, Neil, you still haven't answered my question.

Which politicians running for office right now said they wanted to take church away from you?

A cite would be great.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 5:55PM|#

"Which politicians running for office right now said they wanted to take church away from you?"

Given the religious background of Obama (mother atheist, father Muslim) it shouldn't be hard to figure out which.

|4.12.08 @ 5:56PM|#

joe - remember Jack Stanton (ed note, yes I know he's fictional), where he tells the union workers "your jobs aren't coming back?" That's progressive...that's looking at a problem and trying to figure a solution, not promising to work all kinds of impossible miracles to "get these jobs and this factory back".

|4.12.08 @ 5:56PM|#

Given the religious background of Obama (mother atheist, father Muslim) it shouldn't be hard to figure out which.

And Neil pushes me further away from his candidate.

You really are either a child or a lunatic.

|4.12.08 @ 5:59PM|#

I mean, seriously? Church? Are you for fucking serious? Who's gonna take church away from you?

Well, they might try to take you and yours away from your church.

|4.12.08 @ 6:00PM|#

Every one of Barack Obama's greatest hits - the events where he really stuck it to his opponents or put together a strong case that impressed people - have come as "counterpunches" or "ju jitsu" reversals against attacks from his opponents.

Think about it. "Just Words?" "A More Perfect Union." "Well, I've got something to tell John McCain." "Right on Day One." You go back through this race, and that same pattern keeps popping up over and over.

Now, he's managed to turn this little kerfluffle into a contest between "let's argue over the meaning of the word bitter" vs. "those people don't realize you're hurting."

The man emerged from a scandal in which the entire country saw his pastor yell "God Damn America," and he refused to denounce him, STRONGER than before he went in! And he did so by giving a speech in which he spoke to the public about complicated and nuanced ideas and asked them to see things from someone's else's point of view - in the middle of a racially-charged atmosphere.

I don't see how a someone with that much political talent loses to a grouchy old guy in a year when the political balance is so absurdly tilted in favor the Democratic candidate.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 6:01PM|#

Ok Randian, well how about this?

Obama will:

Raise your taxes

Go back to protectionism and scrap free trade

Get the feds to intervene in the economy more

Spend more

Give us European-style Socialized medicene

Restrict the First (fairness doctrines) and Second (gun control) amendments

Appoint far-left liberal Democrat judges to the Supreme Court

Is that enough reason to vote for McCain now?

|4.12.08 @ 6:02PM|#

joe, I think he's got quite a few things working against him, IMHO:

1. He's a liberal. Almost too liberal for Purple America.
2. He advocates a quick withdrawal from Iraq, which I am not convinced is the majority position in America
3. Let's face it: he IS black and WAS a Muslim, and call be a snobbish elitist, but that does, coupled with the Rev. Wright thing, does not play well in the South. It's just facts.

|4.12.08 @ 6:03PM|#

Regardless, I hope McCain does get "Nader'd"...the Republican party needs to get it handed to them, go out in the wilderness and get rid of this neocon/national greatness/big spending contingent that is driving all of us away.

I'm so pissed at the Republican Party that I want to see them split.

Fuck the POTUS contest. I'm trying to decide if I can vote for anyone in the GOP come November. Punishment is exactly my thinking.

|4.12.08 @ 6:03PM|#

What do you think swing voters will think of that?

Before, or after, he puts together a media offensive explaining his thoughts on the matter?

Still betting that Barack Obama can't calm a racially-charged media stampede? REALLY?

'Kay.

|4.12.08 @ 6:06PM|#

Is that enough reason to vote for McCain now?

Neil, every year you Republican shills get us conservatives* he same schtick: "X Democrat Candidate Would Be Worse, So you have to Swallow your Objections..."

I'm done with it. Republicans have been promising us the "conservative/Libertarian moon" for years and years, and I'm tired of the lies. That's all you've done is lie, lie and betray.

-"Humble Foreign Policy?"
-"Massive Deficit Spending and Wars of Choice?"
-"Ag Subsidies, Medicare Part D"
-"Campaign Finance Reform" (oh don't worry the Court will take of it!)

ALL YOU REPUBLICANS DO IS LIE TO US. Always and forever. I'm NOT in your party anymore, and it's coming that you're going to be abandoned by conservatives.

*I am now libertarian, but got there by being betrayed by Republicans.

|4.12.08 @ 6:07PM|#

Randian,

1. It's 2008.

2. He's for a staged withdrawal from Iraq, not a Kucinich/Gravel/Paul-style withdrawal. Haven't you seen how the "fast withdrawal" people (libertarians and liberals alike) have lit into him?

3. That certainly can't help, but fuck the South. The Democrats don't need the South, any more the Republicans need New England or the Pacific coast. They need their traditional base states, plus some gains in non-southern areas like the southwest, mountain west, midwest, or the now-mid-Atlantic state of Virginia.

|4.12.08 @ 6:08PM|#

Punishment is exactly my thinking.

YES! Anyone who dares say that "well, conservatives just have to suck it up this year and vote McCain" makes me mad enough to spit.

The Republican betrayal of us is so blatant and unforgivable that they deserve to lose. And lose badly.

|4.12.08 @ 6:10PM|#

A-R,

He's a liberal. Almost too liberal for Purple America. This is the candidate that got record cross-over votes. He is 1.3 million popular votes ahead of Hillary, and yet behind her in votes from Democrats.

Elemenope|4.12.08 @ 6:10PM|#

Well, they might try to take you and yours away from your church.

Well, I suppose it is a little different when one of the tenets of your church dogma is serial child rape. We may not all agree on much, but very few of us see no government role in investigating and punishing organized rape.

So long as searches were undertaken and arrests made with warrants only secured after having demonstrated probable cause to a judge, and they have a speedy and impartial trial, I have no real cause to cry.

That being said, I might have inadvertently just now walked into endorsing the persecution of the Roman Catholic Church. Oops. At least for them it isn't an article of faith. Seriously, they're lousy with kiddie rapists and they don't even have the excuse that they believe "it was God's will". At least the laity turned against them when it came out.

alan|4.12.08 @ 6:13PM|#

I should recuse myself from any discussion of unions; I have good reason to be bitter, homicidally bitter, on the subject.

However, that doesn't mean I can't be objective on their broader, political application which is -- they are troglodytes who coerce membership, use Medieval guild like means to force association, economic luddites who believe in a primative pre-Menger theory of value, use political status to change laws in their favor and force workers to go through a byzantine system to collect liabilities due to them instead of through the more rational (though not always so)means of our civil courts, steal your pappy's pension and force you to pay your own way through college; oh wait that last one is strictly personal (but not as uncommon as joe would have you believe).

Elemenope|4.12.08 @ 6:15PM|#

Neil, let's try this again. Slower this time; try to read every word.

Which politicians running for office right now *said* (including but not limited to: position papers, policy speeches, off-hand comments, press interviews, dramatic soliloquies, interpretive poems, drug-induced delirious ramblings) they wanted to take church away from you?

See, I even highlighted the all important action-verb of the sentence.

A cite would be great. Please, don't skimp. If you are right and he has said something like this, it would be BIG NEWS (tm). Do your country a service and enlighten with your evidence.

|4.12.08 @ 6:18PM|#

Elemenope - he has nothing but shadowy speculation and odious implications, but I am sure you already knew that :-D

I want Neil to stand up and say why THIS time it's OH-SO-IMPORTANT that we vote Republican, because THIS TIME is the most crucial time ever for limited government and conservative ideals....

Because I hear it from Red-Party Shills every....freakin'...election. All promises; no delivery.

|4.12.08 @ 6:20PM|#

Hey Neil, about those divisive primaries:

The presidential primary season may prove to be a decisive factor in Campaign 2008, not only for who won, but for the way the winners emerged from the process in the eyes of the voters. Al Gore was clearly helped, and George W. Bush was just as clearly hurt. The vice president has improved his personal image, while making gains among two key groups whose support had eluded him last year, independents and men. In contrast, many people have come to dislike Bush personally, especially former supporters of John McCain. As a consequence, the Texas governor now trails Gore for the first time in a nationwide Pew Research Center survey, by 49%-43%.

…. For the first time since the presidential race began to take shape more than a year ago, Gore has a lead among independents, 47%-39%. This marks a substantial gain for the vice president among these swing voters, who supported Bush by a 56%-36% margin before the primaries began.

….

Moreover, Gore leads Bush by a 51%-44% margin among voters who say they backed McCain during the primary process.

So don't count those chickens yet.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 6:24PM|#

LOL you're comparing the 2000 Republican Primary to the 2008 Democrat Primary? How are they ewven comparable?

There was never any serious threat of McCain going to the convention. This one is much more divisive, its tearing the liberal Democrat Party apart and I love it!

And just wait until McCain chooses Dr. Rice or General Patreaus as his running mate.

|4.12.08 @ 6:27PM|#

Elemenope, (Who is totally a guy, and whose manliness would only be questioned by a fool. Heh.),

I'm troubled by the detention of all of those children between infancy and puberty.

Yes, the weirdos make their teenaged daughters marry grown men, and may they rot in jail for that.

But I haven't even heard rumors that they were anything but good, loving parents to their younger children, and taking 2- and 5- and 8- and 10-year-olds away from their mothers like that is really extreme, absent an imminent threat to those little kids.

|4.12.08 @ 6:28PM|#

its tearing the liberal Democrat Party apart and I love it!

I am personally going to do my best to see that the Barr campaign pulls the Republican party as far apart as it can pull it.

This is the Rs bed; now they get to lie in it.

|4.12.08 @ 6:29PM|#

This one is much more divisive, its tearing the liberal Democrat Party apart and I love it!

Uh huh. And Ann Coulter is going to campaign for Hillary Clinton.

It's going to take about two weeks for the Democrats to get lovy-dovey. Yeah, this is the most divisive primary since the last one.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 6:31PM|#

Yeah Joe, just like 1980 when Kennedy got love dovey with Carter.

Oh yeah thats right, it didn't happen.

Or how about 1968? Yeah, they got unified real fast! Wait--they didn't!

|4.12.08 @ 6:31PM|#

Blue-collar workers in traditional manufacturing states, really, really like unions.

UAW lost 73,500 members in 2007
Ranks hit lowest level since 1941

No comment is necessary.

|4.12.08 @ 6:33PM|#

Barack Obama is a closeted homosexual man -- not that there's anythign wrong with that!!

alan|4.12.08 @ 6:37PM|#

I am personally going to do my best to see that the Barr campaign pulls the Republican party as far apart as it can pull it.

This is the Rs bed; now they get to lie in it.

I endorse everything you have said on the subject of the Republican betrayal. I hope they get it good and
hard, and are reduced to the permenant status of a minority party for giving us a Bush II second term.

I'll likely go LP this year, though if the yokels keep it up about Obama, I may revisit that option. Ultimately, I have a modest dream, America splits its vote 39% Obama, 23% LP, 18% write in for Cthulu, and the Republican/Zombie alliance can have the rest.

|4.12.08 @ 6:37PM|#

And just wait until McCain chooses Dr. Rice or General Patreaus as his running mate.

Neil,
Either choice would hand the election to Obama. McCain would either hitch his wagon to one of the least popular administrations since WWII or he would delegitimize his whole "stay the course" argument. If he brought Petreaus over, he'd say the whole stay the course, the surge is working is bullcrap because he brought back the manager of the whole effort. Heck, the bumper stickers write themselves, "General Petreaus got to leave Iraq, why can't our troops?"

|4.12.08 @ 6:38PM|#

Neil | April 12, 2008, 6:31pm | #

Yeah Joe, just like 1980 when Kennedy got love dovey with Carter.

I'm going to type "LoL," but only because I actually, in meatspace, laughed out loud at you, Neil.

We can't compare the 2008 election to the 2000 election, so we should compare it to an insurgent primary campaign against a sitting president, and the Democratic primary during the height of the Vietnam War?

Boy, Neil, you sure do have an insightful understanding of the Democratic Party, and political history in general.

|4.12.08 @ 6:40PM|#

And just wait until McCain chooses Dr. Rice or General Patreaus as his running mate.

Well- there is no reason whatsoever to pretend the Republicans are not stupid enough.

|4.12.08 @ 6:40PM|#

alan - Right on! I wish that I could reach more disaffected conservatives, but most of them (well, the pseudo-conservatives, anyway) seem to only feel betrayed on immigration, where I disagree with them.

I seem to notice that "True Libertarian" Eric Dondero failed to reply to me, even though I used my real name and everything. Is he afraid to answer the question, or did he see a Muslim across the street and is currently in residence under his bed?

|4.12.08 @ 6:40PM|#

J sub D,

You might not know this, but whether you get to join a unions isn't actually a consequence of your desire to join one.

Some people - no, seriously - who lose their jobs in unionized industries then go to work in non-unionized workplaces.

No, really, it's true!

And not just that, but there have been large job losses in industries where unionized shops are more common in the midwest.

No, seriously, that actually happened! You can look it up.

|4.12.08 @ 6:41PM|#

Since it's an open thread (I should know, I declared it so), I can't really be off topic.

Leonard Pitts is one of the better Op Ed writers in the US. Even when you don't agree, you find yourself nodding at his points. This is what he penned about the mayor of my fair(?) city -

Frankly, Mr. Mayor, you remind of me of Eliot Spitzer, but without the class. What he did to a prostitute, you're doing to a people.

For that, sir, you should be ashamed.

Ya gotta laugh if you live here.

Ali|4.12.08 @ 6:43PM|#

J sub D- Did he do it to you?

|4.12.08 @ 6:43PM|#

BTW, 2007 was the first year in decades that actually saw an increase in union membership.

|4.12.08 @ 6:45PM|#

It's "Petraeus", Neil...if you're going to fall down and worship the man, the least you could do is spell his name correctly.

Mo - insightful commentary about McCain's VP pick. I can't believe that Charlie Crist is still a credible pick; yeah, two old white guys...that's not stereotypical Republican or anything.

|4.12.08 @ 6:45PM|#

joe, you really didn't get my point?

Those jobs are fucking gone forever. The UAW is as resposible as anybody for those jobs being gone forever. I don't believe you are that dense.

Perhaps they can continue their futile efforts to oirganize the Toyota and Honda workers down south. Those workers have made a choice, haven't they joe?

Neil|4.12.08 @ 6:47PM|#

IT could be Sarah Palin, too.

Not only would she be a great VP pick, but shes hot!

|4.12.08 @ 6:48PM|#

Ya gotta laugh if you live here.

I believe living in Detroit gives the rest of the country free reign to laugh too.

|4.12.08 @ 6:48PM|#

J sub D- Did he do it to you?

8.7 milliion taxpayer bucks because he didn't want his extra-marital affair found out. That price is only going to rise.

So to answer your question Ali, Yeah, I am getting fucked.

alan|4.12.08 @ 6:50PM|#

Ayn_Randian,

My current answer to them (and I engaged this argument with my mentally challenged uncle) when they use the threat of a Democratic victory is to ask them?

What is the worse the Democrats can do to us if they win everything? Turn this country in Sweden? I'm philosophically opposed to most aspects of that party, but they are less a threat to my welfare than permanent wars in the Middle East.

|4.12.08 @ 6:50PM|#

oh yeah, Neil, because if McCain needs to secure a state, it's the key state of freakin' Alaska.

I'm seriously astounded at conservative support for a man who thought about switching parties a few years ago. Or did every one forget that already? Or how he thought about being Kerry's running mate?

How embarrassing for you, Neil, that you support a Democrat in pseudo-conservative-clothing.

SIV|4.12.08 @ 6:51PM|#

BTW, 2007 was the first year in decades that actually saw an increase in union membership.

AFSCME ?


joe,

There is a difference in voting for your economic interest and voting for a candidate or Party who promises to serve your economic interest."Taxing the rich" doesn't do a thing for joe sixpack.He can expect an increase in excise taxes and fees as well.

|4.12.08 @ 6:52PM|#

BTW, 2007 was the first year in decades that actually saw an increase in union membership

Link please. Is this private sector union membership or is the figure ballooned by public employeees?

|4.12.08 @ 6:53PM|#

J sub D | April 12, 2008, 6:45pm | #

joe, you really didn't get my point?

Nope. When you put up a statistic about union membership, in response to a comment about people liking unions, and then write "No comment necessary," people are going to read that as a statement about workers' opinion about unions.

Now settle down.

|4.12.08 @ 6:54PM|#

I believe living in Detroit gives the rest of the country free reign to laugh too.

I should get angry about that, but this Mongolian gang bang known as Detroit politics does make us a national laughingstock.

Ali|4.12.08 @ 6:55PM|#

8.7 milliion taxpayer bucks because he didn't want his extra-marital affair found out. That price is only going to rise.

So to answer your question Ali, Yeah, I am getting fucked.

MI is 9M people. So, he took only something like 90 cents from you to cover up for his mess. Come on, j sub D, how much do you pay a day for a cup of coffee? Consider it charity.

|4.12.08 @ 6:56PM|#

Well, I suppose it is a little different when one of the tenets of your church dogma is serial child rape.

Link, LMNOP? Because the FLDS is essentially the mainstream Mormon church the way it was in the 1850s, and damned if I can recall anything in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, or Pearl of Great Price advocating or condoning "serial child rape." Unless you are referring to the 12th Article of Faith -- "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." Oh, wait, that says the exact OPPOSITE of what you alleged.

Some FLDS appear to have a differing view on when the age of consent ought to begin (puberty vs. 16 in Texas), and the ones who acted on those views and broke the law in Texas should be held accountable, but quit talking out of your ass, mmm-kay?

|4.12.08 @ 6:56PM|#

joe, about the UAW, I say again -

"Perhaps they can continue their futile efforts to organize the Toyota and Honda workers down south. Those workers have made a choice, haven't they joe?"

What do you think?

|4.12.08 @ 6:56PM|#

SIV,

I'm working from memory here, but IIRC, the increase came in service unions, and in the west, especially California and Nevada. Casino workers, for example, are unionizing like crazy.

And while I understand your point (that it is not actually in the economic interest of working people to vote for Democrats), I was talking about politics, not policy.

|4.12.08 @ 6:57PM|#

J sub - given that Mark Dann (the Ohio AG) is mobbed up to his eyeballs and corrupt as all hell, at least you don't live in Ohio, man.

Seriously.

|4.12.08 @ 6:59PM|#

J sub D,

I think the laws forbidding employers to enter into certain contracts with their workers - laws sometimes called "Right to Work Laws" - make it very difficult to unionize in southern states.

Not impossible - registration drives in real hell-hole industries like chicken processing tend to meet with great success - but much more difficult.

|4.12.08 @ 6:59PM|#

The virtual world is rapidly evolving into a close representation of the real world with all the opportunities and consequences of the real world. However, there may be many things possible in the virtual world that can't be done in the real world. Our challenge is to figure out what these actions are before our adversaries. To do this, we need to be able to recognize the behavior of a real threat and exploit the information that is available to us in the virtual world.

As our adversaries continue to expand their presence and use of virtual environments, we need to keep pace and possibly leapfrog their abilities; else, we will miss the indicators for the next attack.

"Gentlemen, we cannot allow a virtual terrorist gap!"

SIV|4.12.08 @ 6:59PM|#

So long as searches were undertaken and arrests made with warrants only secured after having demonstrated probable cause to a judge, and they have a speedy and impartial trial, I have no real cause to cry.


CPS doesn't need "probable cause" and warrants.
All they need is an allegation- even if it is an anonymous tip.Federal law requires any allegation of abuse or neglect be investigated, even if believed unfounded or falsely made for vindictive purposes, and the accuser has %100 anonymity. Have they found the phantom "16 year old girl" who made the phone call yet?

I'm not necessarily defending the beliefs and practices of the FLDS church.

|4.12.08 @ 6:59PM|#

prolefeed - you have to wonder, though, that even though it's not explicitly stated, if it's been occurring for a number of years, don't you have to think that there is de facto something amiss with the FLDS?

|4.12.08 @ 7:01PM|#

Here you go: Bureau of Labor Statistics

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm

|4.12.08 @ 7:02PM|#

I think the laws forbidding employers to enter into certain contracts with their workers - laws sometimes called "Right to Work Laws"

Jeez, joe, RTW Laws prohibit forcing employees to pay dues, not prohibit union membership.

|4.12.08 @ 7:02PM|#

2007 was the first year in decades that actually saw an increase in union membership.

This wouldn't have anything to do with the stupefying expansion of the government under George W Peron, would it?

Elemenope|4.12.08 @ 7:02PM|#

But I haven't even heard rumors that they were anything but good, loving parents to their younger children, and taking 2- and 5- and 8- and 10-year-olds away from their mothers like that is really extreme, absent an imminent threat to those little kids.

It's a point I had considered, and you are right that it is worrisome. On the other hand, these were the same mothers who were borderline (if not sometimes enthusiastically) complicit in their childrens' victimization.

It's a tough one because I'm not crazy about these kids being raised by the state, but the parents they have thought by-and-large that child sexual abuse was normal, healthy even.

|4.12.08 @ 7:02PM|#

MI is 9M people. So, he took only something like 90 cents from you to cover up for his mess. Come on, j sub D, how much do you pay a day for a cup of coffee? Consider it charity.

Of course Detroit is < 1,000,000 people. Call it $10 each. That includes the one year olds. Wait until those text messages go public. The damage is going to be enormous and this dip shit hip hop criminal mayor* is going to be drug kicking and screaming out of the Manoogian mansian.

Like "ignorant hillbilly whackjob preacher", dip shit hip hop criminal mayor may become part of my H&R vernacular.

alan|4.12.08 @ 7:03PM|#

The governor of my state wants emergency drought legislation that will give him czar like authority. Of course, it is raining right now, has rained more days this year than not; the nineteen inches we have received already this year just falls short of an average 21 inches per year. So what is it really about?

My city recently built a large water reservoir. He would like to be able to divert its water to the suburbs of Raleigh to subsidize the growth of those 'burbs without having to pay us for it. How is that for local chicanery?

|4.12.08 @ 7:05PM|#

MI is 9M people. So, he took only something like 90 cents from you to cover up for his mess. Come on, j sub D, how much do you pay a day for a cup of coffee? Consider it charity.

Of course Detroit is < 1,000,000 people. Call it $10 each. That includes the one year olds. Wait until those text messages go public. The damage is going to be enormous and this dip shit hip hop criminal mayor* is going to be drug kicking and screaming out of the Manoogian mansian.

Like "ignorant hillbilly whackjob preacher", dip shit hip hop criminal mayor may become part of my H&R vernacular.

|4.12.08 @ 7:05PM|#

Double post, my fuckup.

|4.12.08 @ 7:07PM|#

"Thousands (of AFSCME members) Standing Around"

|4.12.08 @ 7:08PM|#

Ayn Randian,

"Right to Work" laws prohibit employers from entering into contracts with collective bargaining units that include closed-shop conditions. No, they don't forbid union membership - they just make it harder to organize workplaces, as people who join unions know they are much weaker.

And, just in case anybody is wondering, no, I'm not interested in a discussion about Right to Work laws right now. We've got some good stuff on the table right now.

P Brooks,

Probably not, since that's not where the gains were.

|4.12.08 @ 7:09PM|#

J sub D -- joe stubbornly refuses to believe that the hemorrhaging of market share by the Big 3 companies is largely due to them having workers unionized by the UAW, while Toyota and Honda have American factories deliberately picked to be far away from centers of unionized activity. Even if he lived in Detroit like you and saw each day the damage the UAW has inflicted in Michigan, joe will not take a more reality-based POV on this issue. It's a quasi-religious view immune to facts or logic.

Ali|4.12.08 @ 7:10PM|#

J sub D- Oh, you're right, we're only talking about Detroit tax payers. But, still, $10 dollars is like nothing these days.

|4.12.08 @ 7:11PM|#

joe, I think the Toyota and Honda workers view what has happened to their brethren up north and don't want to repeat those mistakes. That is not spin. That is my honest reading of the situation.

Oh! Lookattthat! Here is some more UAW news. The gist is new hires are going to be making half of the veteran line workers.

|4.12.08 @ 7:11PM|#

The only difference between Ford and Toyota is union membership in their American factories.

Only the most stubborn avoiders of reality don't understand that.

|4.12.08 @ 7:13PM|#

Ali, consider yourself placed on the J sub D shit list ofm irritating posters. ;-)

|4.12.08 @ 7:13PM|#

J sub D,

I'm curious - what, exactly, point do you think you are making to me by linking to that story? That the UAW has become flexible in its contracts in response to the trouble facing Ford and GM?

Uh...ok. That's every bit as interesting as it is relevant.

If you're going to turn this into a general, off-topic anti-union spree, you go on with your bad self. Just don't act as if I'm involved.

|4.12.08 @ 7:16PM|#

joe, I never claimed it the only difference. I do claim it is a significant one. If you can't see that, I strongly recommend LASIK.

|4.12.08 @ 7:17PM|#

That the UAW has become flexible in its contracts in response to the trouble facing Ford and GM?

joe, the general gist is that the UAW is what caused Ford and GM's problems in the first place.

The overall trend of your side's politicians to refuse to acknowledge the global economy and pander to economic protectionism is what gets my goat.

|4.12.08 @ 7:17PM|#

Joe -- I figured you'd be around at some point to talk up the deeply nuanced position of the Golden Nominee that is being tightly framed by the bareknuckled, disloyal opposition, as opposed to admitting, at least, "Yeah, 'twas a poor choice of words, especially given the audience. Time to move on."

I agree that Obama will probably have a crafty follow-up to smooth this one over, but the lack of fallout for this one will be due more to receiving a pass, coupled with more interesting things popping up in the news cycle, than some transcendent understanding between the candidate and a wise public. (It also helps that this dropped on a Friday afternoon.)

Face it, Mr. Smooth Oratory clumsily put forth a bad argument, in front of a like-minded crowd. If not, perhaps he should peddle the exact same false-consciousness bullshit to some gun-clinging rabble in the Midwest, without applying polish.

alan|4.12.08 @ 7:18PM|#

Don't try to meta up yet, Joe. You chose to defend unions, you should live with the consequences.

|4.12.08 @ 7:19PM|#

joe, open thread so I can't be off topic by calling out your B/S. The point is that son GM and Ford workers will be making LESS than Honda and Toyota workers in the United States. They will still be paying union dues of course.

|4.12.08 @ 7:19PM|#

"Right to Work" laws protect workers from being involuntarily forced to join unions and pay dues when they do not want to do so. These laws do not stop unions from organizing those workers who do feel it is in their interest to join a union, or prohibit employers from employing unionized workers or collectively bargaining with those workers' union representatives. These laws are libertarian laws preventing workers from coercion by the 51%+ majority who choose to form a union.

|4.12.08 @ 7:19PM|#

son - soon.

alan|4.12.08 @ 7:21PM|#

The lets pretend unions are doe eyed angels of social consciousness angle is not going to work. Too many people have first hand knowledge of their methods.

Ali|4.12.08 @ 7:22PM|#

Ali, consider yourself placed on the J sub D shit list ofm irritating posters. ;-)

Oh, darn!

|4.12.08 @ 7:23PM|#

Ayn Randian,

Ford and GM were unionized in the 1920s, so that seems a bit simplistic.

Unions didn't decide the Big Three should build big gas guzzlers in the early 80s. Unions didn't design the Buick Reatta.

American car companies designed and sold inferior products. It wasn't a non-unionized work force that make the Accord a better seller than the crap coming out of Detroit. The Big Three got corpulent and lazy, and couldn't react the competition.

Certainly, the UAW was a part of that, but the narrative of the mean union preventing what would otherwise have been decades of prosperity based on massive sales of K Cars is real reach.

It's an effort to shoehorn history into far too neat a narrative, and loses so much as to render what's left useless.

Ali|4.12.08 @ 7:24PM|#

But seriously, go to Europe (as I did last week) and start spending some money and you will soon realize how little $10 has come to offer.

|4.12.08 @ 7:25PM|#

Hai Neil--

Congratulations, nitwit. I'm voting for Obama now.

If you're some kind of DNC plant, you sure were effective.

|4.12.08 @ 7:26PM|#

Ohnoes, B.P! Not teh Nuance!

I kan haz sownd bite?

Ali|4.12.08 @ 7:28PM|#

If you're some kind of DNC plant, you sure were effective.

I think that this is a more plausible proposition than that there does in fact exist people as stupid as Neil.

|4.12.08 @ 7:29PM|#

Oops, there I go again, with my takes-more-than-six-words explanations.

Unions bad! No, unions good!

All the fault of unions! No, none the fault of unions.

Oh, and J sub? If you want to "call me on my bullshit," please try to pick a topic - unlike the growth of unions last year, and their popularity among industrial workers - on which I am not factually correct. You DO remember that that was the subject, right? Political opinions about unions?

Episiarch|4.12.08 @ 7:29PM|#

I would just like to note that, even though there's no chance in hell I'm going to read all these fucking posts, that joe and I are united in slamming Neil. joe, high five, baby. Keep it real for me as I get loaded and bang my girlfriend.

|4.12.08 @ 7:29PM|#

What's so nuanced about this, joe?:

I mean, John McCain-it took him three tries to finally figure out that the home foreclosure crisis was a problem and to come up with a plan for it, and he's saying I'm out of touch?

No nuance there...it's bad that John McCain wanted irresponsible companies and buyers to take their damn lumps for betting the wrong way. Oh no! says Obama...we need a PLAN to manage this!

alan|4.12.08 @ 7:29PM|#

But seriously, go to Europe (as I did last week) and start spending some money and you will soon realize how little $10 has come to offer.

On the bright side, I have a French friend who are taking advantage of the diminished value of the dollar to vacation here this summer. He asked me to find a place on the coast near Hilton Head. I'll get a free place to stay for a few weeks, and all I have to do is make the arrangements for him. Woo-hoo!

|4.12.08 @ 7:30PM|#

Keep it real for me as I get loaded and bang my girlfriend.

Yikes, well, at least I'm doing half that plan (that is, banging your girlfriend :-D :-D )

|4.12.08 @ 7:31PM|#

If you want us to believe someone would sleep with you, Ep, it's going to take more than me to "keep it real."

Do we know her? Or is she from another town we've never been to...in Canada?

;-)

|4.12.08 @ 7:32PM|#

Yeah joe, unions sure work well thats why the economy of Ohio and Michigan is booming while places like North Carolina, Georgia, and Texas are in the crapper.

Episiarch|4.12.08 @ 7:32PM|#

Yikes, well, at least I'm doing half that plan (that is, banging your girlfriend :-D :-D )

You must be a ninja, because she's just upstairs and I never saw you come in.

|4.12.08 @ 7:33PM|#

Ford and GM were unionized in the 1920s, so that seems a bit simplistic.

joe, you should read your union history lest you lose your progressive credentials. You can start with The Battle of the Overpass.

This is being unfair to joe. I grew up in a UAW household in the glory days of the big 3 (+AMC). Grasping the broaad swath of the automotive industry, the Big 3 and the UAW is not something you are going to learn in a sociology 101 curriculum.

|4.12.08 @ 7:33PM|#

A-R,

WTF are you talking about? I was responding to what BP wrote about my comments being too nuanced.

And why are you asking me about what Barack Obama said?

Episiarch|4.12.08 @ 7:34PM|#

Do we know her? Or is she from another town we've never been to...in Canada?

Uh...she's from Yellowknife...uh...she's Inuit...shit...

|4.12.08 @ 7:35PM|#

Cesar,

I find that discussions based around "unions work well" vs. "no they don't" are really, really fucking valuable. Don't you?

Allow me to retort:

Nuh-UH!!

Oh, wait, I didn't start with "Yeah, Cesar," so I guess I lose.

alan|4.12.08 @ 7:35PM|#

French friend who are taking advantage

I originally made that plural than changed it because only one is a friend, the other are clients I have not met in person. Syntactic error due to increased accuracy. My strengths are my weaknesses.

|4.12.08 @ 7:36PM|#

Oh, and J sub? If you want to "call me on my bullshit," please try to pick a topic - unlike the growth of unions last year,

Gladly, like I said, this is unfair to you.

|4.12.08 @ 7:36PM|#

LoL, Episiarch. I hope you kept that picture that comes with the wallet.

|4.12.08 @ 7:36PM|#

AR, McCain SAID he would let the market handle it, and then proceeded to favor a bail-out for Bear-Sterns

What a maverick!

Episiarch|4.12.08 @ 7:38PM|#

LoL, Episiarch. I hope you kept that picture that comes with the wallet.

Well, my mom said I can...I mean, my basement...SHIT

|4.12.08 @ 7:39PM|#

Wow, the fact that I was a decade off sure does put a stake through my heart.

I mean, the fact that the car companies starting sucking 40 years after unionization instead of 50 is so fucking important, I must now go hide my face in shame.

It's funny - you are so wound up, you're getting a woody because you caught me making a misstatement that has nothing to do with the argument.

Whatever, sub.

|4.12.08 @ 7:40PM|#

Cesar, do you admire McCane more because he's a Straight Talker, or because he's all Maverick-y?

|4.12.08 @ 7:40PM|#

I said nothing about the nuance of your comments, Joe. I was simply pointing out the predictability of you coming around to let us know that the haters are pulling, out of context, a soundbite from one of Obama's meta-fantastic speeches. We get it -- Obama is the smartest guy in the room whose words, when used against him, are not what the bad guys want you to think they seem. Just like last time.

Episiarch|4.12.08 @ 7:41PM|#

Honestly, I do have to go service my girlfriend (it sounds so mercenary), but I am glad I could pop in briefly. LMNOP, I did watch the BSG episode last night but I was fucking hammered and...can't remember what happened. I had better watch it again. Don't kill each other, guys.

|4.12.08 @ 7:42PM|#

AR, McCain SAID he would let the market handle it, and then proceeded to favor a bail-out for Bear-Sterns

What a maverick

I kinda thought, "What a pussy". But I'm a mean person who isn't concerned about the impending economic meltdown, if some folks have to pay for their irrresponsible decisions.

|4.12.08 @ 7:43PM|#

Does alan get points deducted for having a French friend, or are they cool again because Sarkozy seems neat and gets play from hot women.

I'm always behind on this stuff.

|4.12.08 @ 7:43PM|#

Joe,

The federal government (via CAFE standards) also put a world of hurt on the big three.

What the big three made well and made good money on were light and heavy pickup truck and SUVs. They faced no competition from the foreign companies in this segment and it was a cash cow for them.

The cafe standards forced them to produce a substantial amount of high mileage vehicles that they lost money on.

They were not good at making these cars, no one wanted to buy them (the Japanese produced superior products in this segment), and it forced them to compete head to head against the Japanese who were much better at building cars in this segment.

So it was not just unions and management that damaged the big three, the federal government piled on a lot of economic damage.

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 7:44PM|#

Holy crap! 300+ posts? What the hell happened? Is it raining at Fenway or something?

A_R, yea, if I ever get back on duty this will be my 3rd style utility uniform. I started with OD Fatigues, khakis and dress greens/blues.

My son was asking about breaking in these new boots. Is that shower trick for real, if you don't go out and buy Nikes instead?

Not sure who I am quoting here: "sure McCain is a maverick"

My ass, he went to the vocational school in Annapolis, MD.

BTW, at breakfast I had to skip the link sausage because I am a vagetarian and they did not have a Patti.

alan|4.12.08 @ 7:44PM|#

Yeah joe, unions sure work well thats why the economy of Ohio and Michigan is booming while places like North Carolina, Georgia, and Texas are in the crapper.

Here in G-boro, you will find a Honda Air plant, and a Volvo truck factory.
Workers in need of unions for wage discrimination and safety reasons? Get out of here, crazy kid. Maybe in the tobacco, hog, and poultry industry that received protection from liabilities though the years by the Democratic machine.

|4.12.08 @ 7:44PM|#

Oh look folks! Now Billary is touting her experience with guns!.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

|4.12.08 @ 7:45PM|#

No one on this thread, IIRC, has so far said that the UAW is the sole cause of the Big 3's troubles. A major cause, sure. The biggest cause, most likely. Basically, the problem is that it is suicidal in the short-run for one of the Big Three to try and adopt the non-unionized business models of Honda and Toyota -- the UAW would go strike until the company went under, and then force the two survivors to accept their terms. But, it is also suicidal in the long-run to do business with the UAW. The Big Three will keep on losing market share to Toyota and Honda, year after year, until they finally get finished off, one by one.

Yes, the Big Three have made some blunders, in particular chasing short-term profits in light trucks while letting their market share in small cars get taken away. That, and making shoddily built cars that break down constantly. (Yes, they've greatly improved the quality lately, but they're still significantly behind the Japanese for most of their product line.) Now that the Japanese car makers are building light trucks like the Toyota Tundra, and gas prices have further eroded the total market for this insanely profitable light truck segment, the end game is near.

|4.12.08 @ 7:46PM|#

No joe, I caught you pretending to be knowledgeable about a subject, when you aren't. Whatever. You may commence with personal attacks.

|4.12.08 @ 7:48PM|#

B.P. | April 12, 2008, 7:40pm | #

I said nothing about the nuance of your comments, Joe

Let's go to the tape:

B.P. | April 12, 2008, 7:17pm | #

Joe -- I figured you'd be around at some point to talk up the deeply nuanced position of the...

Res ip.

I was simply pointing out the predictability of you coming around to let us know that the haters are pulling, out of context, a soundbite from one of Obama's meta-fantastic speeches.

Actually, I didn't make any statements about context. Were you thinking about someone else, or do you just not know what the word "context" means?

We get it -- Obama is the smartest guy in the room whose words, when used against him, are not what the bad guys want you to think they seem. Just like last time.

And any time you'd care to take a stab at arguing that this statement is incorrect, you know where to find me.

Let me give you a hint: neither "You're comment is favorable to Obama," nor "You have made a similar comment before" is, as a matter of fact, relevant to the question of whether I am correct.

|4.12.08 @ 7:48PM|#

Does alan get points deducted for having a French friend, or are they cool again because Sarkozy seems neat and gets play from hot women.

I'm always behind on this stuff.

The French are always cool. It's just like high school. Sometimes you like the cool kids, sometimes you can't stand 'em.

|4.12.08 @ 7:49PM|#

Oh look folks! Now Billary is touting her experience with guns!.

Is it time for the tank ride yet?

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 7:51PM|#

B.P.,

Does alan get points deducted for having a French friend, or are they cool again because Sarkozy seems neat and gets play from hot women.

Even I have stopped correcting others for using a capital F in that word, although I have not changed my style yet. seems you might be a bit behind, but it happens on all sorts of things. Scroll up, I did not even know that whitie was still keeping us down!

|4.12.08 @ 7:51PM|#

Hillary also said in that story that she has hunted ducks.

How much do you wanna bet that turns out to be completely false?

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 7:52PM|#

The French are always cool.

now, that is a bit much.

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 7:54PM|#

Hillary also said in that story that she has hunted ducks.

Maybe at Kroger's with a $20 bill.

|4.12.08 @ 7:54PM|#

My son was asking about breaking in these new boots. Is that shower trick for real, if you don't go out and buy Nikes instead?

Ehh, I found that the desert boots pretty much broke themselves in. I used the shower trick on the old black ones, but I wouldn't recommend showering in what are essentially suede boots!

joe - I'm more addressing the general bullshit of Obama claiming he's in favor of blue-collar workers' "economic interests" and then wanting to make them pay more in taxes to bail out McMansion buyers and house-flippers.

Incredible, really, that the people who made the responsible choice and pay their mortgage on time now have to dig deeper for the retards who don't. Thanks, Obama (and McCain, good looking out, Cesar) for wanting screw over my working-class parents for economic retards.

|4.12.08 @ 7:54PM|#

Apparently, J sub, I'm more knowledgeable than you about the growth of union membership last year.

You may commence with personal attacks.

Oh, piss off. I'm writing about unions, ideas, and facts. You throw out an irrelevant "Gotcha! You misstated a fact!" and tell me I'm not knowledgeable, and I'm the one one commencing personal attacks?

Whatever.

|4.12.08 @ 7:56PM|#

As for McCain's VP, why not another Alaskan--Ted Stevens!

alan|4.12.08 @ 7:56PM|#

J sub D, you'll have to take the brunt of the abuse because Joe likes me and wont speak ill of me.

It is funny that this thread began with most of us defending Obama, and making a prison bitch out of a National Greatness hack, and now we are back to where it usually goes -- Purple Team versus Blue Team.

B.P., I probably do deserve points deducted, but I'll be too stoned off my ass to care.

alan|4.12.08 @ 7:59PM|#

Guy Montag | April 12, 2008, 7:52pm | #
The French are always cool.

now, that is a bit much.

They really are. Sorry, but it is true.

|4.12.08 @ 8:00PM|#

Seriously, Guy, what about the Rainbow Warrior incident? I figured that would give the French cool points, if anything. Well, that and Yorktown.

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 8:00PM|#

Now is the time to see who the true 'mericans are on here. The race is about to begin.

|4.12.08 @ 8:00PM|#

Ayn Randian,

joe - I'm more addressing the general bullshit of Obama claiming he's in favor of blue-collar workers' "economic interests" and then wanting to make them pay more in taxes to bail out McMansion buyers and house-flippers

I don't know a great deal about his specific policy proposals - and, frankly, I doubt you do, either - but this housing crisis has sent the economy into a recession, which could possibly turn into the deepest recession in decades.

The economy tanking is going to hurt blue-collar workers a hell of a lot more than the minute cost a bail-out would have on them.

You would oppose a bailout whether it was good, bad, or indifferent for blue-collar workers, on philosophical grounds. Don't hide your philosophical argument behind them, the way the Iraq hawks hide theirs behind "the troops."

And while I shouldn't have to say this, there is nothing in this post which expresses an opinion one way or the other about any proposed policy regarding the mortgage meltdown, and I'm not going to respond to any comments that read one into it.

|4.12.08 @ 8:00PM|#

Yeah Joe, Obama's supposedly nuanced position, not yours. I used the word nuance, so I can see the confusion.

And context...

"... when his political opponents try to use rhetorical ploys and tight edits to frame him."

And thanks for the hint.

It's been fun, but I gotta go finish my taxes. And I just got a text from some gal from Yellowknife.

|4.12.08 @ 8:02PM|#

I was unaware this was a "blue team vs. purple team" thread.

Sad that people do that, talking about sides instead of ideas.

|4.12.08 @ 8:05PM|#

Still waiting for the link, joe. The one that diffentiates between public and private sector union growth. Y'know, like I provide link when I make assertations. If you have already provided said reference, I apologize for missing it.

|4.12.08 @ 8:05PM|#

Sad that people do that, talking about sides instead of ideas.

oh you're too much. You're sad that people take sides rather than ideas...except you said:

I don't know a great deal about his specific policy proposals

But you're on his "side" anyway. Laughable, really.

|4.12.08 @ 8:08PM|#

J sub D, you'll have to take the brunt of the abuse because Joe likes me and wont speak ill of me.

No. It's cool with me. When joe goes personal, I know I'm getting his goat and it make me feel sooooo good.*

Got that link yet, union boy?

* Not really. That was just to bother him some more.

|4.12.08 @ 8:10PM|#

You would oppose a bailout whether it was good, bad, or indifferent for blue-collar workers, on philosophical grounds.

Did you think that my philosophical beliefs somehow sprung fully-formed, Athena-like, from my head? Or do you think that real-world examples like this may have formed my beliefs?

Ponder that.

|4.12.08 @ 8:10PM|#

I already gave you a link. You want to research the question, you go on with your bad self.

Randian,

I was talking about his policy proposals in the particular topic of the mortgage meltdown. I thought that was clear from the fact that our exchange was about the particular topic, but I guess not.

And I've found that philosophy and character are more important in choosing a candidate for office than policy wonkery. In a checks and balances system, no one implements their detailed policy as stated.

But, regardless, I'm glad you were amused.

|4.12.08 @ 8:12PM|#

A-R,

Or do you think that real-world examples like this may have formed my beliefs?

I think that political differences have a lot more to do with values than anything else, even to the point of leading people to develop slanted understandings of the facts.

|4.12.08 @ 8:13PM|#

And I've found that philosophy and character are more important in choosing a candidate for office than policy wonkery.

Endlessly repeating "Hope and Change" does not a Philosophy Make.

I didn't ask Obama to be wonky; I asked him to actually say something other than empty platitudes.

|4.12.08 @ 8:13PM|#

Not really. That was just to bother him some more.

What a child.

But remember, folks, I'm a big meanie.

|4.12.08 @ 8:16PM|#

Randian, if you think that Obama has been less substantive than either Hillary or McCain, you just proved my point about people letting their philosophies interfere with their understanding of the facts.

Here's a question: have you ever gone to the candidates' home pages and made up your own mind about their levels of policy specificity? Are you actually saying that Barack Obama has not defined a clear philosophy as plainly as Hillary Clinton and John McCain?

Or are you just basing those opinions on the fact that other people have said so?

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 8:22PM|#

A_R,

Seriously, Guy, what about the Rainbow Warrior incident? I figured that would give the French cool points, if anything. Well, that and Yorktown.

Ahem, I believe you have missed some of my greatest work where that is mentioned quite early. Posted that about 5 years ago.

MK2|4.12.08 @ 8:23PM|#

joe

Randian is like every other fucking fundamentalist who posts here. If it doesn't fit the ideology it doesn't count; no thinking is necessary.

|4.12.08 @ 8:25PM|#

What a child.

J sub D | April 12, 2008, 7:46pm You may commence with personal attacks.

Can I call 'em or what?

Later folks, I have to get up early to harass the churchgoers.

|4.12.08 @ 8:26PM|#

MK2,

Ayn Randian is far, far better than most when it comes to thought and fairness, from what I've seen. I certainly wouldn't single him out like that.

|4.12.08 @ 8:28PM|#

I'm sorry, J sub D, "commence" means "start."

Which means you "commenced" the personal attacks at 6:45, when you called me dense.

But don't let that throw you. You're sexy when you pout.

|4.12.08 @ 8:30PM|#

J sub D | April 12, 2008, 7:46pm You may commence with personal attacks.
J sub D | April 12, 2008, 8:08pm | #

...

* Not really. That was just to bother (joe) some more.

Ha ha.

|4.12.08 @ 8:30PM|#

joe, all I'm saying is that I really don't understand the devotion to Obama or the pretend idea that he's more "for the people" than anybody else.

Randian is like every other fucking fundamentalist who posts here.

hmmm, how reflexive of you, to say nasty things about me without even really knowing me. Almost...fundie...that.

|4.12.08 @ 8:31PM|#

"Randian is like every other fucking fundamentalist who posts here. If it doesn't fit the ideology it doesn't count; no thinking is necessary."

Gawd, save us from the self-absorbed trolls who come here to pretend they're the objective voice of pure truth and reason.

|4.12.08 @ 8:32PM|#

Sparky - just wait 'til he starts posting about the "echo chamber"....then we'll know that he's a Prophet of Our Savior, Dan T.

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 8:33PM|#

Randian is like every other fucking fundamentalist who posts here. If it doesn't fit the ideology it doesn't count; no thinking is necessary.

Of course, reading what A_R writes is not needed for the knee-jerk reaction.

|4.12.08 @ 8:34PM|#

Well, A-R, I think that "devotion" - which is so unlike the reasoned support people give to small government conservative candidates, I guess - stems from the fact that people 1) hold political beliefs similar to his, and 2) appreciate his leadership style, and how it differs from the usual insults to our intelligence.

|4.12.08 @ 8:35PM|#

There are some echo-chamber fundamentalists among the regulars here.

But Ayn Randian? C'mon.

|4.12.08 @ 8:39PM|#

"...then we'll know that he's a Prophet of Our Savior, Dan T."

His handle is disturbingly close to another ghost of trolling past, M1EK. M1EK would at least occasionally attempt to engage in substantive discussions, but boy was he ever _really, really_ angry about it.

|4.12.08 @ 8:39PM|#

which is so unlike the reasoned support people give to small government conservative candidates, I guess

joe, well, it really is different. Small-government guys (real ones) will snap with candidates rather quickly. What baffles me is that the Democratic Party is relatively opposed to Iraq, but Obama's position is basically a phased withdrawal based on "conditions on the ground"...who does that sound like? Has he denied what Samantha Power said in March about how 16 months is the "best case scenario?"

|4.12.08 @ 8:41PM|#

There are some echo-chamber fundamentalists among the regulars here.

I'm appreciative of that, joe.

joe, I thought you were a Bill Clinton guy...what's up with letting the two main candidates bash NAFTA, anyway?

|4.12.08 @ 8:41PM|#

Randian is like every other fucking fundamentalist who posts here.

If by "fundamentalist" you mean someone who understands, based on observing real world outcomes, that private voluntary transactions tend to have much better outcomes than coerced government monopoly transactions, then use the correct terms: "radical libertarian" or (in Ayn_Randian's case) "Objectivist", rather than trying to smear us by associating us with the nutcase religious fundies.

McCain\'s New Campaign Song|4.12.08 @ 8:42PM|#

Featuring John McCain, Lindsey Graham, and Joe Lieberman singing in turn.

(John McCain)

Got me a surge
Gonna set Iran
Gonna set Iran on fire!

(Lindsey Graham)

At the end of the day
This maverick won't stray
Cause war's his hearts desiiiire

(Joe Lieberman)

I'm just an old neocon
Yeah I'm a huge choad
I can't wait
CANT WAIT
For more chinese loans!

VIVAAAAAAAAAA VIAGRA!

(repeat 4x)

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 8:45PM|#

OMG! All this "fundie" talk reminds me that it is warm enough to go back to Church!

|4.12.08 @ 8:47PM|#

Ayn Randian,

I've been talking about a phased withdrawal from Iraq since 2005, and I've opposed the war since the summer of aught-two.

The Republican talking point about a "precipitous withdrawal" isn't actually a fair description of what most Democrats want. Most of us are not like Kucinich, Paul, or Gravel.

Speaking only for myself, "We need to be as careful getting out of this war as we were careless getting in" isn't a policy that I need to sell out to support; it's what I've been saying for years.

Conditions on the ground matter. Ending this war is going to be a process, and iterative process, which each step being determined, in part, by what the previous step accomplished. I think anybody who claimed they could state what the beginning, middle, and end of that withdrawal is going to look like is being patently dishonest.

|4.12.08 @ 8:51PM|#

joe, I thought you were a Bill Clinton guy

There's really no need to descend into personal attacks.

I'm a Kerry guy. I like trade liberalization deals, but I want them to include strong worker and environmental protections - and not as poison pills, but in order to prevent the most irresponsible parties from committing depredations upon the workers and the environment in developing countries. I think that Obama and Hillary are both pretty much in the same place.

BTW, so did Bill Clinton. Prior to NAFTA's approval in the Senate in 1993, he got side-deals on labor and the environment attached to it. They're described on the Wikipedia NAFTA page.

|4.12.08 @ 8:53PM|#

A good definition of fundamentalism in political discourse is the belief that adhering to a particular set of beliefs inoculates you from ordinary human foibles, so you don't bother examining your own opinions for them.

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 8:57PM|#

BOOGITY BOOGITY BOOGITY let's go racin' boys!

|4.12.08 @ 8:59PM|#

Yeah, Guy, WTF was that?

Two outs, in the 9th, 3-2 in a one-run game here's the wind-up, and...

Fucking auto racing? WTF is"F/X?"

I blame Rupert Murdoch.

Guy Montag|4.12.08 @ 9:03PM|#

(suspending my joe rule)

That, joe, is America.

Neil|4.12.08 @ 9:21PM|#

The Obama Lemmings (like Joe) need to take a look at this:

"12 reasons 'bitter' is bad for Obama by Mike Allen:

1. It lets Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) off the mat at a time when even some of her top supporters had begun to despair about her prospects. Clinton hit back hard on the campaign trail Saturday. And her campaign held a conference call where former Iowa Gov. Tom Vilsack, a Pittsburgh native, described Obama's remarks as "condescending and disappointing" and "undercutting his message of hope."

2. If you are going to say something that makes you sound like a clueless liberal, don't say it in San Francisco. Obama's views might have been received very differently if he had expressed them in public to Pennsylvania voters, saying he understood and could alleviate their frustrations.

3. Some people actually use guns to hunt - not to compensate for a salary that's less than a U.S. senator's.

4. Some people cling to religion not because they are bitter but because they believe it, and because faith in God gives them purpose and comfort.

5. Some hard-working Americans find it insulting when rich elites explain away things dear to their hearts as desperation. It would be like a white politician telling blacks they cling to charismatic churches to compensate for their plight. And it vindicates centrist Democrats who have been arguing for a decade that their party has allowed itself to look culturally out of touch with the American mainstream.

6. It provides a handy excuse for people who were looking for a reason not to vote for Obama but don't want to think of themselves as bigoted. It hurts Obama especially with the former Reagan Democrats, the culturally conservative, blue-collar workers who could be a promising voter group for him. It also antagonizes people who were concerned about his minister but might have given him the benefit of the doubt after his eloquent speech on race.

7. It gives the Clinton campaign new arguments for trying to recruit superdelegates, the Democratic elected officials and other insiders who get a vote on the nomination. A moderate politician from a swing district, for example, might not want to have to explain support for a candidate who is being hammered as a liberal. And Clinton's agents can claim that for all the talk of her being divisive, Obama has provided plenty of fodder to energize Republicans.

8. It helps Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) frame a potential race against Obama, even though both of them have found support among independents. Now Republicans have a simple, easily repeated line of attack to use against Obama as an out-of-touch snob, as they had with Sen. John F. Kerry after he blundered by commenting about military funding, "I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it."

9. The comments play directly into an already-established narrative about his candidacy. Clinton supporters have been arguing that Obama has limited appeal beyond upscale Democrats - the so-called latte liberals. You can't win red states if people there don't like you. "Elites need to understand that middle-class Americans view values and culture as more important than mere trickery," said Paul Begala, a Clinton backer. "Democrats have to respect their values and reflect their values, not condescend to them as if they were children who've been bamboozled."

10. The timing is terrible. With the Pennsylvania primary nine days off, late-deciding voters are starting to tune in. Obama and Clinton are scheduled to appear separately on CNN on Sunday for a forum on, of all topics, faith and values. And ABC News is staging a Clinton-Obama debate in Philadelphia on Wednesday. So Clinton has the maximum opportunity to keep a spotlight on the issue. Besides sex, little drives the news and opinion industry more than race, religion, culture and class. So as far as chances the chattering-class will perpetuate the issue, Obama has hit the jackpot.

11. The story did not have its roots in right-wing or conservative circles. It was published - and aggressively promoted - by The Huffington Post, a liberally oriented organization that was Obama's outlet of choice when he wanted to release a personal statement distancing himself from some comments by the Rev. Wright.

12. It undermines Democratic congressional candidates who had thought that Obama would make a stronger top for the ticket than Clinton. Already, Republican House candidates are challenging their Democratic opponents to renounce or embrace Obama's remarks. Ken Spain, press secretary for the National Republican Congressional Committee, said: "There is a myth being perpetuated by Democrats and even some in the media that an Obama candidacy would somehow be better for their