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Liberpalooza!
Breaking news: reason subscriber Mike Gravel, who when last spotted was still running for president as a Democrat, has just joined the Libertarian Party. Commenters are invited to debate the relative merits of a Barr/Gravel or Gravel/Barr ticket.
In other LP news, Mary Ruwart, whose book Healing Our World presents libertarianism with a leftish, new-agey slant, has entered the race for the LP's presidential nomination. So...Ru/Paul? Ru/Barr? Barr/Chong?
Update: Gravel definitely wants to be the Libertarian presidential candidate. No word on whether he's willing to settle for second billing -- or if he'll stick around if the party rejects his bid.
Nash|3.25.08 @ 9:05PM|#
Bob Barr's mustache, Mike Gravel's eyeball and Ron Paul's Texas
twang.
Unstoppable.
This just in. Mike Gravel wrote some newsletters a while back. I
expect Jesse to get right on this!
SIV|3.25.08 @ 9:13PM|#
In other LP news, Mary Ruwart, whose book Healing Our World
presents libertarianism with a leftish, new-agey slant, has entered
the race for the LP's presidential nomination.
So how do you represent a far right wing ideology with a leftish,
new-agey slant?
A free download of the 1993 version is available at
www.ruwart.com.
I suppose I could find out easy enough.....
Wonder if she passes my "single issue" test?
|3.25.08 @ 9:15PM|#
So how do you represent a far right wing ideology with a leftish, new-agey slant?
Barr/Gravel Unity '08!
Gravel is right on guns, and though I'm not a gun owner myself that
issue says a lot about how a politician feels about the masses.
|3.25.08 @ 9:18PM|#
Is this supposed to be a good thing? We have Ron Paul, the kindly old grampa, and now Mike Gravel, the weird, angry old grampa.
thoreau|3.25.08 @ 9:19PM|#
and though I'm not a gun owner myself that issue says a lot
about how a politician feels about the masses
No, it really doesn't. There are plenty of authoritarians (often of
the socially conservative sort) who nonetheless oppose gun control,
and plenty of ACLU types who oppose most restrictions on personal
activity but support gun control. Most people, for good or for ill,
do not view gun control as an ideological issue. It's more of a
Kulturkampf thing. A lot of the conservative politicians who oppose
gun control would change their minds about the laws if they decided
that they don't like guns (or don't like the people who own
them).
|3.25.08 @ 9:25PM|#
Could someone explain the running "reason subscriber Mike
Gravel" gag to me?
A lot of the conservative politicians who oppose gun control
would change their minds about the laws if they decided that they
don't like guns (or don't like the people who own them).
One of our local talk radio guys hates gun control, but at the same
time believes that guns should only be sold to either homeowners or
people with dependents, depending on which day you listen to him.
Douche.
|3.25.08 @ 9:28PM|#
http://www.gravel2008.us/issues
I think his positions on the environment, education, immigration,
health-care and social security all leave something to be
desired.
SIV|3.25.08 @ 9:30PM|#
CD #1
Industrial Hemp: The Hidden Agenda Behind the War on Drugs. Raymond
R. Carr, a registered pharmacist, suggests that the War on Drugs is
really a war on a plant that could save the planet!
How Liberty Can Save the Environment. Dr. Ruwart demonstrates that
liberty, not government, is the environment's best friend. Recorded
live at the 1999 ISIL World Conference in Costa Rica.
$10/CD
Whewwww! For a second I thought she was a hemper, but that is
somebody else on the flipside of her lecture CD.
Question
"Will any libertarians concede that the natural environment --
resources themselves, animals that live off them -- have natural
rights, in the same way that humans assign natural rights to
themselves?
Answer
"The libertarian philosophy addresses relationships between human
beings, not humans and other species. Many people are looking for a
coherent way to address this issue, so please give some thought to
developing one."
She seems OK!
Run! Mary Run!
BakedPenguin|3.25.08 @ 9:31PM|#
Jonathon: Mike Gravel subscribes to Reason. No gag. So far as I
know, he hasn't ever threatened to cancel his subscription.
Which radio guy was that?
|3.25.08 @ 9:39PM|#
Baked-Bud Hedinger.
Even though I disagree with him a lot I like the guy. He's one of
the least aggressive talk show hosts when it comes to the people
who call in
|3.25.08 @ 9:46PM|#
I always thought it was odd that the guy considered to be on the
fringe right (Paul) and they guy considered to be on the fringe
left (Gravel) had the most in common.
Anyway, is it too much to ask to get a Libertarian candidate that
is charismatic, young, remotely electable, and won't make the the
party look kookier than we already are?
shecky|3.25.08 @ 9:48PM|#
Thoreau:
My sense is that gun control tends to play out as more of a culture
war thing rather than ideological freedom issue. A quick rundown of
the big gun forums seems to indicate that gun nuts tend to be quite
an authoritarian/conservative lot. Even statist on gun issues.
SIV|3.25.08 @ 9:49PM|#
and though I'm not a gun owner myself that issue says a lot
about how a politician feels about the masses
No, it really doesn't.
Yes it really does. Support of gun rights is support of property
rights and individual autonomy.Anti-gun leftists-including your
"ACLU types" generally oppose such things right now.
The Bearded Hobbit|3.25.08 @ 9:49PM|#
though I'm not a gun owner myself
.. may I suggest these as a start??
http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=3§ion=products
http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=1705&return=Y
http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/BoltAction22/981T.aspx
.. Hobbit (who has no financial connection to any of the companies
listed but thinks that these are good products for the money)
thoreau|3.25.08 @ 9:53PM|#
SIV-
A lot of socially authoritarian politicians oppose gun control. A
lot of the people most staunchly opposed to warrantless wiretaps
and detention without trial support gun control. Gun control seems
to be one of those issues that correlates with party and culture
more than ideology.
shecky|3.25.08 @ 9:53PM|#
Regarding fringe right/left:
It seems to me that viewing the political spectrum as a linear
model breaks down too much. I think of it more as circular, where
the further a person goes down one side, the more they begin to
loop around and resemble the fringe of the the other side.
Bingo|3.25.08 @ 9:54PM|#
Hobbit:
Mr Ruger is famous for saying this:
no honest man needs more than 10 rounds in any gun
He wrote a letter that influenced the drafting of the 1993 Assault
Weapons Ban. Ruger makes some damn fine guns, but they will never
get a cent of my money.
Jeff Wartman|3.25.08 @ 9:54PM|#
SIV|3.25.08 @ 9:55PM|#
shecky,
I've been reading those gun forums heavily recently to research a
gun purchase.They are nearly all anti-authoritarian.I read posters
on a Southern State hunting and fishing oriented forum (as opposed
to gun rights and self defense) bitching about no-knock raids and
the militarization of police departments.
|3.25.08 @ 9:56PM|#
http://phillies2008.org/
I'm supporting the Physics Professor for the LP nomination. He's
not charismatic, but he's smart, serious, and a physicist. We need
more physicists. (not you, thoreau; sit down already.)
|3.25.08 @ 9:56PM|#
though I'm not a gun owner myself
.. may I suggest these as a start??
http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=3§ion=products
http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=1705&return=Y
http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/BoltAction22/981T.aspx
.. Hobbit (who has no financial connection to any of the companies
listed but thinks that these are good products for the
money)
I'm going to a local gun show this weekend, and have been thinking
about buying a gun for a while-any tips?
SIV|3.25.08 @ 9:58PM|#
Bingo,
Ruger has passed away and they are offering hi-cap magazines now.I
was just looking at "honest" 5 shot SP101 s though.I don't like the
aesthetics of their auto-pistols.At least they don't put those
damnable internal locks on their guns like S&W.
Bingo|3.25.08 @ 9:59PM|#
Is orange the official libertarian color? Will we get some orange sprinkles on our purple frosting in November?
thoreau|3.25.08 @ 10:00PM|#
gp-
That's OK. I'm currently angling to become John McCain's running
mate.
See here for explanation:
http://highclearing.com/index.php/archives/2008/03/24/8036
Ben Kalafut|3.25.08 @ 10:05PM|#
The LP has needed a reboot ever since Rothbard and Co drove out
the people actually interested in advancing a libertarian agenda
(and got that Bill Evers-penned, pompously stupid platform
passed!)
Barr/Gravel '08 could be our best chance at LP 2.0. Perhaps it's
not precisely what this "cosmotarian" would like, but look at it
this way: it reattaches the party's left arm (Gravel) and reverses
its lobotomy (Barr).
Think of it this way, too. Gravel is a good deal less nuts than tax
protest "constitution scholar" Michael Badnarik, diploma-mill
doctor Campagna, conspiracy lout Aaron Russo, and some of the
libertarians currently seeking the nomination (narcissist Barry
Hess, off-the-deep-end Born Again "Purist" Christine Smith, Dan
Imperato, John Finan.) A case can be made for his having a stronger
libertarian instinct than Ron Paul. Yes, his take on healthcare is
scary, but it isn't any worse than the Paul approach to immigration
(kick 'em out), gay rights (collective right of community to
oppress), or the Establishment Clause (de-fund courts which apply
it!)
shecky|3.25.08 @ 10:07PM|#
I read posters on a Southern State hunting and fishing
oriented forum (as opposed to gun rights and self defense) bitching
about no-knock raids and the militarization of police
departments.
If libertarian meant only gun issues, I'd say you have a point.
More often, I find many more very pro drug war
pro-police/militarist/nativist/cultural conservatives than
libertarian leaning folks.
Mad Max|3.25.08 @ 10:08PM|#
"make the the [Libertarian] party look kookier than we already
are"
How, exactly, could that happen? I shudder to think, and I was a
loyal Badnarik supporter.
"Ru? Who's Ru?"
Winnie the Pooh's friend.
Jennifer|3.25.08 @ 10:08PM|#
He has a normal human skin tone, which is a definite step up over libertarians past.
SIV|3.25.08 @ 10:10PM|#
Anyone familiar with the FN Five-seveN ?
I don't favor polymer pistols but I do appreciate
the very light weight, high capacity, minimal recoil aspects of
this gun.Looks like a good plinker. Doesn't hurt that there is some
noise about banning them either.
Franklin Harris|3.25.08 @ 10:16PM|#
In other LP news, Mary Ruwart, whose book Healing Our World presents libertarianism with a leftish, new-agey slant, has entered the race for the LP's presidential nomination.
Ruwart may be right on all the issues, but that New Age thing she
has going (unfortunately, not merely an affinity for the poorly
named genre of music) makes her only a slightly more attractive LP
nominee than the guy with blue skin.
SIV|3.25.08 @ 10:18PM|#
shecky,
which gun forums are you reading? The ones I'm looking at seem to
lean heavily libertarian.
I'm not looking at political discussions there
just experience and opinion on particular weapons. The politics in
those threads(and regular posters sigs) are all
anti-authoritarian.
|3.25.08 @ 10:25PM|#
Mike Gravel is the type of guy who can really make a
splash.
He'll light a fire under the party.
Did I get there first?
The Bearded Hobbit|3.25.08 @ 10:26PM|#
I'm going to a local gun show this weekend, and have been
thinking about buying a gun for a while-any tips?
.. the Mossburg 500 is available in a combo package, with 28" and
18.5" barrels .. they go on sale every once in a while for a bit
over $200 .. IMHO should be the basis of every home protection
system ..
.. a .22 rifle and a box of ammo is about the most enjoyable
afternoon that one can spend .. enough said ..
.. to fill out the trifecta is a good quality handgun .. my
preference is a .357 Magnum revolver but I also have a 9mm
autoloader that I really, really like to shoot ..
.. ymmv
.. Hobbit
|3.25.08 @ 10:28PM|#
Support of gun rights is support of property rights and
individual autonomy.
Sure. You know. Like John Ashcroft. Big individual liberty
types.
john c Cosmo Cramer Jackson 3r|3.25.08 @ 10:30PM|#
The whole "political spectrum as a circle thing" was day 1 in my freshman PolySci class many ages ago. The whole "left" authoritarian and "right" authoritarian almost touching thing. Or "Nazis"and "Commies" being pretty close on the spectrum. Not that Paul is a nazi and Gravel is a commie or anything...Though neither gets my Cosmo seal of approval.
Bill Cooke|3.25.08 @ 10:40PM|#
Between Gravel, Ventura, Paul, and Barr, I'm going to have a
hard time trying to figure out who I should "throw away my vote" on
this year!
America may be committing suicide, but I won't go along and drink
the koolaid just because everyone else is.
|3.25.08 @ 10:43PM|#
..."make the the [Libertarian] party look kookier than we
already are"...
I'm not sure that's possible...
SIV|3.25.08 @ 10:45PM|#
joe,
You talkin' 'bout the John Ashcroft who...
He was a leading opponent of the Clinton Administration's Clipper
encryption restrictions.
He convened the first and only Senate hearing on racial profiling,
on March 30, 2000, with Senator Russ Feingold (D-WI), where he
stated that racial profiling is unconstitutional and said that he
supported the concept of legislation requiring that statistics be
kept of police actions.
I am no fan of Ashcroft's tenure as a politician or bureaucrat,
but
for an authoritarian prosecuter for the State
you could say his civil liberties record was
"mixed".
Mad Max|3.25.08 @ 10:50PM|#
"Or 'Nazis' and 'Commies' being pretty close on the spectrum.
Not that Paul is a nazi and Gravel is a commie or anything...Though
neither gets my Cosmo seal of approval."
I'm not sure if this warrants a drink or not. Could we refer it to
our distinguished panel of judges?
shecky|3.25.08 @ 10:51PM|#
which gun forums are you reading?
glocktalk, thehighroad, calguns mostly. Interestingly, thehighroad
seems to have put a cap on politics a few months ago, unless they
relate to gun issues, probably because every other thread was about
how the Muslims/French suck so bad. Calguns is the worst I've seen,
getting onto stormfront territory on occasion. The glocktalk crowd
seems to have gotten weary of covering GWB's ass, but most are
still the same odd lot.
Clearly, there are some reasonable folks there of all political
stripes. But I don't think it's too much of an exaggeration to say
the gun forums are overly represented by the National Review
crowd.
SIV|3.25.08 @ 11:06PM|#
I'm reading a lot of thehighroad and a bit of glocktalk
Never seen calguns.I think we are sort of talking circles here as
"the National Review crowd" seems more pro liberty to me than most
left, center, and right non-libertarian ideological circles.
Excepting that idiot nutcase k-lo broad who wants to blow Romney,
of course.
Eric Dondero|3.25.08 @ 11:19PM|#
This is huge. He is the very first US Senator affiliated with
the Libertarian Party. (Sen. Orrin Hatch did speak to the 1994 LP
National Convention in SLC).
This gives the LP major Gravitas and a great deal of credibility.
And from Alaska, no less, where the LP has already won many
races.
As a Republican, I salute my friends in the LP for a job well done.
You all should be very proud of landing this big fish (or Alaska
Salmon.)
Eric Dondero|3.25.08 @ 11:21PM|#
By my count, 1 US Senator and 3 US Congressman have been
affiliated with the Libertarian Party now: Gravel, Ron Paul, Bob
Barr and Sam Steiger. Paul and Barr are still in the LP.
Plus the LP has had 12 State Legislators: 3 in Alaska, 1 1/2 in
Michigan (Steve Dresch and Leon Drolet), 6 in New Hampshire and 1
in Vermont.
\
Currently, there are two legislators affiliated with the LP: Steve
Vaillancourt in NH and Jerry O'Neil in Montana.
|3.25.08 @ 11:30PM|#
SIV,
I'm talking about John Ashcroft who brought back federal
prosecutions for dirty movies. (Did you know he reassigned FBI
agents from counter-terrorism for that?)
Ooh, "mixed." Isn't that nice. And you're looking down your nose at
the ACLU?
|3.25.08 @ 11:31PM|#
That must not be the real Dondero. I mean, he's not claiming Ron
Paul molested him as a child or anything.
No ... wait a minute. He's really touting talking points from
Dondero's website. Might just be an oversight.
Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L|3.25.08 @ 11:33PM|#
Mad Max:
I'm not sure if this warrants a drink or not. Could we refer it
to our distinguished panel of judges?
New drinking game rule:
If you ask "Does this warrant a drink or not?": DRINK!
Ben Kalafut|3.25.08 @ 11:40PM|#
Not that Steiger was anything to be proud of or brought the LP
any Barr-like gravitas.
What kind of "libertarian", presented with a plan, at a public
meeting, by a prominent local architect,to improve parking and
traffic flows downtown, not by expensive construction projects
(which was what was ultimately done) but instead by re-striping the
parking spaces, rejects it out of hand by asking "what's in it for
me?"
That really did happen, during Steiger's tenure as Prescott's
mayor, the highlights of which include Sergeant Bilko schemes to
enrich his cronies, the go-ahead for construction of the Taj Mahal
of Kia dealerships (those who've driven in from I-10 know what I'm
talking about!), and a taxpayer giveaway to Wal-Mart. Granted, his
LP days were long behind him by then, but he was well into senility
before he had anything to do with the LP. Guys like him make Ernie
Hancock look serious by comparison.
Despite all that, everyone remembers the jackass for having shot a
burro.
Kevin Carson|3.25.08 @ 11:55PM|#
"Mr Ruger is famous for saying this:
"no honest man needs more than 10 rounds in any gun"
Does that apply to men in uniform?
|3.26.08 @ 12:03AM|#
"Barr/Gravel '08 could be our best chance at LP 2.0."
I disagree. Unelectable fringy retreads from the two major parties
won't boost respectability. And someone with a long history of
advocating very un-libertarian ideas won't help promote a
libertarianism as a distinct alternative.
The best candidate would be an articulate, charismatic superrich
businessman, not associated with either major party, Ross
Perot-like but not insane.
|3.26.08 @ 12:24AM|#
Shecky, isn't glocktalk the host of that law enforcement circle jerk forum? Given the Glock is the weapon of choice for civilian thugs in uniform, you should exclude that site from your pool of anecdotal evidence.
|3.26.08 @ 12:40AM|#
Is this supposed to be a good thing? We have Ron Paul, the
kindly old grampa, and now Mike Gravel, the weird, angry old
grampa.
It's a wonderful thing! Being on the LP ticket means he won't even
be able to get elected dog-catcher!
SIV|3.26.08 @ 12:54AM|#
"no honest man needs more than 10 rounds in any
gun"
Ruger now serves
"dishonest men" with the 17+1 SR9 Pistol
I'm still looking at a Ruger SP101 revolver-- with an "honest" 5
shots of .357 magnum.
|3.26.08 @ 1:45AM|#
Sometimes I think it's better if we don't get a lot of attention
or "big name" politicians joining up. The more people we get and
the more attention we get, the higher the expectation will be. And
after 30 years of this, I don't think the LP is going to make a
move anytime soon. I mean, when we get Mike Gravel to join up, how
much fringier can we get?
Dondero, this isn't huge at all. If Gravel didn't yell at the other
candidates during those couple debates, he'd have been mostly
forgotten as a senator from 30 years ago. No offense, Mr.
Gravel.
Pablo Escobar|3.26.08 @ 2:41AM|#
What I don't understand is the split in the libertarian
movement.
On the one hand we have a Ron Paul REPUBLICAN Revolution that led
to over $30 million being raised and several credible second-place
finishes, and on the other, we have the geeks in the Libertarian
Party, who could only raise $1 million for their presidential
candidate last time around.
I think the choice is clear. Abandon the LP and become a Ron Paul
Republican.
Bill Cooke|3.26.08 @ 6:48AM|#
MK2 | March 26, 2008, 1:44am | #
Isn't Gravel a Holocaust denier?
No, and you can go and fuck yourself.
Taktix®|3.26.08 @ 7:35AM|#
Is this supposed to be a good thing? We have Ron Paul, the
kindly old grampa, and now Mike Gravel, the weird, angry old
grampa.
Kinda like Statler and
Waldorf?
Das Erfurt Programm|3.26.08 @ 8:02AM|#
To all the firearm fetishists who've chimed in on this
thread.
Don't worry, your commie libertarian comrades don't want to grab
your guns, we have our own to play with.
-------------------
3. Education of all to bear arms. Militia in the place of the
standing army. Decision by the popular representatives on questions
of war and peace. Settlement of all international disputes by
arbitration.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1891erfurt.html
Mad Max|3.26.08 @ 8:17AM|#
"The best [LP] candidate would be an articulate, charismatic
superrich businessman, not associated with either major party, Ross
Perot-like but not insane."
You don't ask for much, do you?
|3.26.08 @ 8:18AM|#
"I was just looking at 'honest' 5 shot SP101 s
though."
It's an excellent home defense piece. The SP101 in .357 magnum with
the 3" barrel is small, simple, powerful and reasonably accurate
(for a small gun). Plus, the flame that comes out the barrel is big
as a bus with .357 loads. Nobody imagines such a big growl from
such a small dog.
|3.26.08 @ 8:51AM|#
Jeff Flake continues to resist libertarian entreaties however.. which says something.
Reponder|3.26.08 @ 9:09AM|#
Gravel doesn't seem all that grumpy in that video. lol. A bit on the gruff side maybe. Even in the early Democratic debates, when he was heaving Gravelbombs at his opponents, behind the scene, you could sense something waggish about the old dog.
Reponder|3.26.08 @ 9:16AM|#
To elaborate: gruff, pertaining to his singing voice :)
"makes all the instruments sound powerful but husky"-
Virgil Thomson
robc|3.26.08 @ 9:18AM|#
Like John Ashcroft. Big individual liberty types.
Because legalizing strong crypto did nothing for individual
liberty.
I have a hard time smacking down too hard any supporters of strong
crypto. Also, anyone who quit the current admin because they
couldnt stand working for Bush.
|3.26.08 @ 9:21AM|#
"Some of the candidates on this stage frighten me."
"Which ones?"
"Well, the leading one." Looks at Biden. "And you, too. You've got
a certain arrogance about you."
How can you not love that?
|3.26.08 @ 9:24AM|#
To all the firearm fetishists who've chimed in on this
thread.
Don't worry, your commie libertarian comrades don't want to grab
your guns, we have our own to play with.
1. We don't "play" with firearms.
2. You commie libertarians couldn't lead
a bunch of drunk red necks to a pig picking.
3. and even if you could you don't have the
stones to do it.
|3.26.08 @ 9:25AM|#
Mary Ruwart will be more than acceptable to most Libertarians,
and she will ably dispell voters' perception that Libertarians are
"all for me and the hell with everyone else."
In other words, a candidate who doesn't practice the macho-flashing
you see from a number of H&R commenters.
|3.26.08 @ 9:31AM|#
From what I know of Ms. Ruwart she seems to be an excellent candidate, especially compared to the other currently running candidates. She seems to be very good at telling/showing why liberty is the way to go in most situations. I read her book and found it very good and interesting. I am pretty sure she could give the rep and dems a run for their money in a debate without coming across as being to kooky. Perhaps Karen Kwiatkowski (sp?) would be a good running mate. She has a lot of foreign policy experience. Or maybe we could somehow get David Walker to become a libertarian and run. His financial experience is top notch considering he was essentially the governments head accountant. He was going all around the country telling people about the problems with Social Security and Medicare but no one seemed to listen. Maybe they would listen if he was a candidate.
The Democratic Republican|3.26.08 @ 9:31AM|#
Mary Ruwart, whoever the hell she is, shouldn't even be
mentioned in the same sentence as Bob Barr. And the only person who
deserves less mention is Gravel.
When is the LP going to stop focusing on the every-four-years kook
show known as the presidential nominating process and focus on
building a REAL party structure at the grassroots?
The Democratic Republican|3.26.08 @ 9:33AM|#
And is Dondero even still allowed in the door at LP events, what with his incessant shilling for the Republican Party?
The Democratic Republican|3.26.08 @ 9:34AM|#
"Maybe they would listen if he was a candidate."
Are you kidding? Do you have any idea how many credibility points
you lose when you go out and campaign under the LP banner? That is
what happens when you don't build a strong, sustainable party and
you indulge every whack job that wants to be a state or county
chair.
|3.26.08 @ 9:53AM|#
"The best [LP] candidate would be an articulate, charismatic
superrich businessman, not associated with either major party, Ross
Perot-like but not insane."
T.J. Rodgers, anyone? He'd fit the bill, plus his leaving Cypress
Semi would probably boost the price of my CY stock.
|3.26.08 @ 9:54AM|#
Gravel is not Barr. He gets major libertarian props for supporting and end to prohibition. However, his "let's put the government in charge" extremist solution isn't a single issue anomaly. I say Barr is to pink. Don't let the tinfoil fool you, this guy is simply not entitled to a decoder ring.
Commie Lib|3.26.08 @ 9:58AM|#
2. You commie libertarians couldn't lead
a bunch of drunk red necks to a pig picking.
Very funny tough guy :)
It's not a matter of not being able to, it's about not wanting to.
But if that's your hobby, have at it.
And, I don't think the word you are looking for is "lead" when
talking about a pig-drunk crew; "corral" might be more appropriate.
But that would be coercive.
Oink!
|3.26.08 @ 10:01AM|#
you indulge every whack job that wants to be a state or
county chair.
How does this differentiate them from the big 2? Oh, wait, I know!
The whack jobs and petty despots from the other 2 parties sometimes
win the seat for which they are running. If you come up with
another substantive difference, please let me know.
|3.26.08 @ 10:10AM|#
Christ. He's the one who was outraged that Democratic presidential candidates were putting America's foreign policy interests ahead of other countries.
Rhywun|3.26.08 @ 10:33AM|#
"the National Review crowd" seems more pro liberty to me
than most left, center, and right non-libertarian ideological
circles
When they're not busy blaming divorce on gays and unemployment on
Mexicans, yeah they're all about liberty.
Abandon the LP and become a Ron Paul Republican
I like the grass roots idea. Get a real 3rd party going. 'Cuz
otherwise your message gets lost in the mix, especially when it
contradicts half of your party's platform. And it won't attract any
votes from the other side, who like your message but not who you've
chosen to align yourself with.
The Democratic Republican|3.26.08 @ 10:34AM|#
Legate: The "substantive difference" is that "the big 2" are
already in power, and if the LP ever wants to be in power it's
going to have to play a better game than that.
You don't go in as the underdog, play at the same level as your
heavily favored and advantaged opponent, and expect to come away
with a win.
lunchstealer|3.26.08 @ 10:55AM|#
My world is really strange. I appreciate Gravel for not sugar-coating that fact, and really pushing the boundaries of the absurd in his campaign.
|3.26.08 @ 10:58AM|#
Re: Mike Gravel has just joined the Libertarian Party.
This gives the LP major Gravitas and a great deal of
credibility.
As much as I enjoy belittling Donderooooooooo, I cannot possibly
add to this comment.
Justin (THR)|3.26.08 @ 11:01AM|#
I'm on the staff of one of the gun forums that was previously
mentioned: The High Road.
It's painting with a fairly broad brush to say that the forum is
overly-populated with authoritarians.
This is not to say that there aren't any. There certainly
are.
However, it's been my observation that the debates between the
authoritarians and libertarians are generally very healthy and
conducive to thought-provoking discussions.
As a staff member, I'm often placed in having to moderate threads
on these discussions, and I've been accused of being an idealogical
crony from practically every perspective you can imagine.
It's quite amusing to get emails from people accusing me of being a
commiesimp pinko one day, and then getting accused of being a
supporter of all of the puppy-stomping jack-booted thugs the
next.
As to why we closed the politics forum; it was simply becoming a
pit. There were no constructive discussions taking place, and an
entire forum where people were just spitting at one another just
stinks. On top of that, running a political forum in an election
year is just a migraine-inducing pain.
Eegosumabbas|3.26.08 @ 11:03AM|#
Hey, if Gravel can read Adam Smith and agree with 90% of it,
give him the benefit of the doubt and let him be a spokesman. What
bothers me is his desire to use public moneys to fund education,
health care, and political campaigns. He should probably stick to
the green or democratic party. Also his "National Initiative" thing
is frightening: direct democracy cannot work in a nation of 300
million people, and you can look forward to majority oppression of
the minority. You think things are bad now? It would be a giant
clusterfuck violation of freedom.
If the LP uses Gravel as a mouthpiece, you can kiss the party's
future goodbye, as all the center and right libertarians will jump
ship for the Republican party.
squarooticus|3.26.08 @ 11:05AM|#
The only three guns any self-respecting gun-owning libertarian
need own are:
(1) A full-size 1911 in .45
(2) A .308 semi-automatic battle rifle or carbine (AR-10 and
variants like the DPMS panther are sufficiently reliable now, but
you might want to go with an M1A for ultimate reliability)
(3) A 12-gauge shotgun
Of course, more guns are never a bad idea, and having a lightweight
.38+P or .357 magnum snubbie for everyday deep concealment in areas
where the gub'mint decides you aren't responsible enough to carry
is an excellent fourth gun, but the above 3 are the absolute
minimum required.
|3.26.08 @ 11:21AM|#
The only three guns any self-respecting gun-owning libertarian
need own are:
I agree with you list, except that I would add
an 22lr such as the ruger 10-22.
Also I might add many, many rounds of ammo.
Me I own an M1A Springfield, HK93, HK M1, and
a HK USP .45; along with the 10-22. So I'm close to your list.
Justin (THR)|3.26.08 @ 11:23AM|#
The only three guns any self-respecting gun-owning libertarian need own are:
Are the ones that fit their hands the most comfortably, and cover
their particular and individual needs as a gun owner.
Quite frankly, blanket statements of "X gun is the only one you
need" really chap my ass.
squarooticus|3.26.08 @ 11:53AM|#
Justin, you are absolutely right, but the approach I'd take is
to replace individual guns from my list (or some other list with a
reasonable cover of gun utility) with others that are basically
equivalent in function and power but are a better "fit" for the
user.
The idea of a minimal list is to cover the set of circumstances a
person might find himself in without breaking the bank, and is
valid.
Mike Laursen|3.26.08 @ 11:55AM|#
When is the LP going to stop focusing on the
every-four-years kook show known as the presidential nominating
process and focus on building a REAL party structure at the
grassroots?
They aren't, because there will always be a substantial number of
Libertarians who think the presidential campaign is an important
outreach and education tool. However, you can easily get involved
in your county organization just by showing up, ignore whatever the
national LP is doing, and do your own projects at the county
level.
svf|3.26.08 @ 12:03PM|#
I love Mary Ruwart but she is a lousy public speaker. I speak
from experience (almost nodding off at the 2000 convention).
Mike Gravel, while crazy, is at least entertaining. Kinda like
Russell Means.
NoStar|3.26.08 @ 1:14PM|#
My dad taught me how to shoot a .22 in a gravel
bar down by the river.
For ease of carry, low cost, and reliability, I recommend the 9mm
Makarov. If it was good enough for the STASI, it's good enough for
me.
|3.26.08 @ 3:18PM|#
My opinions of his politics or whether his mentis is compos or
non, the video has an excellent beat and you can dance to it.
It takes a lot to make me smile in this grim and seemingly
neverending death-march of a campaign. And that video did the
trick.
All we are say-ing ... is give Mike a chance!
|3.26.08 @ 3:21PM|#
# svf | March 26, 2008, 12:03pm | #
# Mike Gravel, while crazy, is at least
# entertaining. Kinda like Russell Means.
Last I heard about Mr. Means, he was seceding from the Union up in
the Black Hills region. How is that working out for him?
|3.26.08 @ 3:25PM|#
# Nash | March 25, 2008, 9:05pm | #
# Bob Barr's mustache, Mike Gravel's eyeball
# and Ron Paul's Texas twang.
Actually, I think Ron Paul's twang hails from Pennsylvania, though
he seems to have picked up a very soft drawl and a lot of Texanisms
during his years living down there. I think it is right neighborly
of his Texas constituents to keep sending a "foreigner" to DC to
represent them.
svf|3.26.08 @ 3:34PM|#
Last I heard about Mr. Means, he was seceding from the Union
up in the Black Hills region. How is that working out for
him?
... running for
president again, apparently...
|3.26.08 @ 5:21PM|#
svf (12:03pm) says "I love Mary Ruwart but she is a lousy public
speaker."
I see excellent points here. (1) We have good (and recent!)
empirical evidence that a person can't speak worth crap can still
be elected President and (2) the complaint, SVF, loves her anyway!
Whatever it is that Mary is saying, it seems to make people love
her -- that is sufficient.
My prediction: Barr will recognize he can't beat Ruwart; won't run.
Gravel will receive an enthusiastic reception and very few votes.
All others can't add up to 49%; Mary wins on the first ballot. (But
still can't make 1% in Nov.)
Brandybuck|3.26.08 @ 5:50PM|#
Yet more evidence of the ongoing dilution of the word
"libertarian". First they took the word "liberal" away from
liberal, then took "conservative" away from conservatives. Now we
are losing the word "libertarian".
Maybe I'll have to start calling myself "minimally minarchist"
instead.
svf|3.26.08 @ 6:00PM|#
My prediction: Barr will recognize he can't beat Ruwart;
won't run. Gravel will receive an enthusiastic reception and very
few votes. All others can't add up to 49%; Mary wins on the first
ballot. (But still can't make 1% in Nov.)
I agree with everything you say except the part about Barr -- if he
runs he WILL beat Ruwart. Maybe on 2nd ballot, but he will.
Especially if he gets an endorsement of some kind from Ron Paul.
Every day that passes makes it less and less likely that Barr will
enter the race, though.
So... we get Ruwart... and less than .5% of the vote. Again.
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