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Bin Laden Denounces "Pope of the Vatican," Has No Comment on Pope of Greenwich Village
There's a new tape out (or maybe it's old) from Osama bin Laden (or maybe it's someone else). Transcript here. The big news, if there is any news, is that bin Laden believes those Muhammad cartoons -- remember them? they were a big deal in 2005 -- "came in the framework of a new Crusade in which the Pope of the Vatican has played a large, lengthy role." This is presumably a reference to Benedict XVI's controversial remarks about Islam, which were a big deal in 2006. CIA experts say this new evidence will help them determine when exactly bin Laden's tape recorder ran out of batteries.
|3.21.08 @ 2:10PM|#
Murder rap? Nobody came within twenty feet of that yo-yo. He dived into that hole like a fucking gopher!
|3.21.08 @ 2:14PM|#
Ahem. Crusade? Does Mr. bin Laden appreciate the sheer
destructive force of the West at this time? If Europe and the
United States wanted to launch a crusade, the Middle East would be
a giant theme park under our control. Let's not forget that despite
our difficulties in the occupation of Iraq, we are refraining from
using many means that "crusading" armies would not refrain from
using. Cartoons! Ten thousand years of cartoons would hurt Islam
how? But him getting the non-Islamic world totally annoyed with
Muslims, even the innocent, peaceful ones--well, what does that do
for the religion?
This guy pisses me off to no end.
bill|3.21.08 @ 2:32PM|#
Isn't the Pope against all non-Catholic religions? Hasn't Bin Laden ever heard of the Inquisition?
|3.21.08 @ 2:34PM|#
Man Osama's really just going through the motions. Maybe he needs to do a musical episode.
Inigo Montoya|3.21.08 @ 2:37PM|#
M. bin Laden:
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it
means.
Episiarch|3.21.08 @ 2:50PM|#
Bin Laden is just pissed because Charlie and Paulie slipped him enough laxative to loosen up a horse. PRANKD
|3.21.08 @ 2:56PM|#
I think Bin Ladin is dead. Think about it, were he alive and well, why wouldn't he be making videotapes of himself holding yesterday's New York Times and taunting the evil infidels for their failure to capture him? His still being alive is a great propeganda coup for Al Quada. Here is a guy who stuck a finger in the eye of the great Satan and lived to tell about it. Yet, Al Quada only manages to release a few legacy tapes that could have been made at any time and no real pictures of the guy in years. I think he died sometime time a go.
Guy Montag|3.21.08 @ 3:00PM|#
You can't do that man. I mean you don't abuse 'em once in a
while they'll shit all over you. I don't mean you walk around
morning to night whackin' 'em upside the head like someone from the
other side but you terrorize 'em once in a while just to keep 'em
in line. Know what I mean?
(now I forgot that noise Paulie made when he was whacking the heavy
bag as if it were Darryl Hannah's butt)
|3.21.08 @ 3:04PM|#
WTF kind of fucked up reasoning is required to conclude that an insult (cartoons) is a more serious offense than murder?
Guy Montag|3.21.08 @ 3:15PM|#
Jeebus, that's all he's got? The Pope and some
cartoons.
I think we won, then.
Cool, more troops for Iraq!
Episiarch|3.21.08 @ 3:16PM|#
John, he may not be dead, but properly paranoid about how much
the CIA wants to find him. The amount of resources they are capable
of bringing to bear on this search are staggering. If he were to
post a video from a cave, I guarantee you the CIA brings in
geologists and ask where in the world that type of rock might be;
they analyze the tape, where it was made, follow the sales trail;
and on and on and on.
This hasn't enabled them to find him yet (we all know how efficient
government is), but if he makes one small mistake that gives them a
relative clue as to where he is, he is fucked.
|3.21.08 @ 3:28PM|#
I think that more people should read Bin Laden's entire body of
work (if that's the right term).
To many people seem to operate under the assumption that Bin Laden
and others like him are "rational actors" as Westerners would
define the term. The believe that he holds the same general world
view and the same basic models of causation as an educated
Westerner.
He doesn't. His entire world model is substantially different. He
believes that all human events, indeed all human history, revolve
around the struggle of muslims to implement God's will on earth. He
believes that that events that we believe have nothing to do with
Islam, say the French and Indian war, are ultimately driven by the
desire by infidels to thwart Muslims in their sacred mission.
In this world view it make perfect sense that the Danish cartoons
are part of wider plot because, basically, everything is part of a
wider plot. The Pope doesn't exist to lead Catholics in their
faith, he exist to wage war on Islam (an Bin Laden's form of Islam
specifically).
This type of world view narcissism is common among despots and
totalitarian ideologies. Hitler, Stalin, Mao etc all viewed the
world as revolving around them and all events as having
significance to them.
This type of world view makes finding common ground with those who
hold it almost impossible.
Episiarch|3.21.08 @ 3:32PM|#
Will bin Laden be in the new Indiana Jones movie? You know, Indy could run into him at a book burning or something.
Paul|3.21.08 @ 3:47PM|#
etc all viewed the world as revolving around them and all
events as having significance to them.
Hmm, I had a girlfriend that used to be the same way...
|3.21.08 @ 3:58PM|#
Shannon Love,
Just because Stalin was paranoid - and he was - doesn't mean that
he didn't have some reason to be. Though his reasons were as much
the result of his own actions as anything.
The classical world discussed these matters in some detail (e.g.,
Plato, Xenophon, etc.).
GG|3.21.08 @ 4:05PM|#
Someone should congratulate him for achieving at least one of
his goals. Well, I suppose it was a joint effort so we have to
give GWB at least half the credit.
And I don't know what he's using to darken his beard but he looks
15 years younger than he did in '04! Osama you vain midlifer you,
on your next video you simply have to tell us your secret. Henna or
Grecian Formula?
Mad Max|3.21.08 @ 4:06PM|#
"Isn't the Pope against all non-Catholic religions? Hasn't Bin
Laden ever heard of the Inquisition?"
The Inquisition never had jurisdiction over the unbaptized.
By the way, I think we should acknowledge that Monty Python was
wrong - the Inquisition has become totally predictable in any
H&R thread mentioning the Catholic Church.
|3.21.08 @ 4:11PM|#
Mad Max,
Non-Christians were dealt with by the secular courts (small
comfort). Of course with regard to the Inquisition in the Americas
one could argue whether many of those tried were actually
Christians.
|3.21.08 @ 4:12PM|#
Huh. He doesn't look dead. Is it totally atavistic and
uncivilized of me to ask why he isn't dead and/or in American
custody? The guy pisses me off.
I had suggested the following for a libertarian presidential
candidate, but since we're plum out of those, I give it to any
candidate left in the race:
Offer the vice presidency to the first person to bring me the head of Osama bin Laden.
|3.21.08 @ 4:21PM|#
I assume the Vatican has really, really tight security, but they might want to beef it up anyway.
Mad Max|3.21.08 @ 4:35PM|#
Calidors,
I just assumed that, if H&R posters love discussing the
Inquisition so much, they might want to know some actual
history.
|3.21.08 @ 4:43PM|#
Mad Max,
The main problem was not the Inquisition per se (though its various
incarnations were hardly enlightened affairs) but the various
religious conflicts of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation.
Whatever terrors happened in the Inquisition (as well as Protestant
and Catholic secular courts) were in many ways a side show in
comparison to the death tolls created by the religious wars between
the various confessional communities which took place during this
time (e.g., the French Wars of Religion, the German counterpart to
such, the English Civil War, etc.).
|3.21.08 @ 4:49PM|#
Mad Max,
In other words, it was a period of social disturbance with all that
entails for tolerance, liberty, etc.
|3.21.08 @ 4:54PM|#
I had a girlfriend that used to be the same way
Only one? You need to get out more.
Mad Max|3.21.08 @ 4:56PM|#
I'm seeing a lot of posts which would have been understandable
(perhaps) in the early or mid eighteenth century.
ECRASEZ LINFAMME: "OMG, look at all the crimes committed by
Christians! Obviously Christianity is to blame - I can't wait until
Europe has renounced its Christian heritage; then we'll have an era
of peace, tolerance and reason."
DIDEROTIOT: "Yeah, Ecrasez, wouldn't that be neat? Hey, have you
heard of the new Queen of France, that Austrian, Marie
Antoinette?"
TPAINE: "Yeah, I hear she has a good head on her shoulders."
Mad Max|3.21.08 @ 5:00PM|#
Here's a quote from that famous right-wing fundamentalist
William Ellery Channing, one of the founders of the Unitarian
movement - you know, the people who think the Episcopelians are too
conservative.
"To those who are fond of exaggerating the wars and persecutions,
which Christianity has kindled, we would say, go and witness the
blessings of infidel philosophy, where it has been permitted to
triumph! Behold the heart hardened into stone, and all tender
feelings of our nature giving place to the ferocity of beasts of
prey. Behold murder, and perfidy, and rapine let loose, and
scattering ruin and dismay. Behold the best blood flowing in
torrents, and observe the secret tears of the widow and fatherless,
who dare not utter the anguish which consumes them! God has given
to all nations an awful monument to the nature and influence of
infidel philosophies, and I trust he has not admonished in
vain."
Two Sermons on Infidelity delivered October 24, 1813," in William
Ellery Channing, People's Edition of the Entire Works of W. E.
Channing, D. D., Volume II. London: Simms and M'Intire, 1851, pp.
536-552, at 537.
|3.21.08 @ 5:06PM|#
The Inquisition never had jurisdiction over the
unbaptized.
They didn't torture and kill Jews? If you don't mind, I'd like a
little more than a blog comment to back that up.
Mad Max|3.21.08 @ 5:16PM|#
jsd,
Baptised Catholics of Jewish descent were often accused by the
Spanish Inquisition of being "Judaisers" - that is, of following
Judsiam when they were supposed to be Catholics. Because of the
Inquisition's loose evidentiary standards, it is very likely that
numerous innocent Catholics were falsely condemned.
For a source, consult Benzion Netanyahu, *Origins of the
Inquisition,* reviewed by yours truly at
http://www99.epinions.com/content_62582591108
Mad Max|3.21.08 @ 5:31PM|#
That's probably the (tragic) history you're thinking of. The
victims of the Spanish Inquisition tended to be Catholics, not
Jews, unless you commit an anacronism and count "cultural Jews" who
rejected the religion of Judaism.
The Roman Inquisition, while not perfect, had more respect for due
process than its Spanish counterpart. This is because the Spanish
Inquisition was in practice an agent of the Spanish Crown, and the
Popes thought they were too weak to refuse the demands of the
Spanish rulers for a *de facto* royally-dominated Inquisition in
their own country.
BakedPenguin|3.21.08 @ 5:35PM|#
Mad Max - I'm gonna draw some cartoons of the pope. You don't like it, go make a video...
|3.21.08 @ 5:37PM|#
The inquisition in France and Spain was mainly about wiping out
the Cathar Christians and what was let of the Spanish
Muslims.
It worked really well there are no there are no Cathar Christians
now.
Mad Max|3.21.08 @ 5:48PM|#
Travis,
The Cathars actually held the views which hip secularists foolishly
attribute to the Catholic Church - the material world is evil,
forget about your body and focus on your pure spiritual being, blah
blah.
Mad Max|3.21.08 @ 5:50PM|#
"It worked really well there are no there are no Cathar
Christians now."
You're welcome!
|3.21.08 @ 5:52PM|#
Mad Max,
So it's okay to massacre people because they believe in a stupid
theology?
|3.21.08 @ 5:54PM|#
Who cares what the pope thinks about Islam...after his big shift
left with his 7 social sins i have written the guy off as another
comrade in red.
Can we get a new pope already this one is broken.
|3.21.08 @ 6:02PM|#
The Roman Inquisition, while not perfect, had more respect
for due process than its Spanish counterpart.
Which I'm sure was a comforting thought as you were burning at the
stake. Talk about damning with faint praise.
"Roman Inquisition, while not perfect..."
Heh. Quite a bold admission there.
White Star Line Titanic's maiden voyage, while not perfect, was
much more luxurious than its Cunard Line counterparts.
Mad Max|3.21.08 @ 6:32PM|#
"So it's okay to massacre people because they believe in a
stupid theology?"
The Church hasn't been involved in the burning of Protestants for a
long time, We leave that sort of thing to the ATF.
Mad Max|3.21.08 @ 6:34PM|#
As to the Cathars, the Church feared that the Cathar movement
would lead to the secession of what is now Southern France from
Christendom. What do do about a secession threat? Ask Abraham
Linconl.
Since there is no longer any Christendom to secede from (and what
wonderful results the abolition of Christendom led to!), then of
course the issue of using force to prevent secession does not
arise.
Mad Max|3.21.08 @ 6:35PM|#
"do you do," not "do do."
I'll get the hang of this pesky Internet thing yet!
Mad Max|3.21.08 @ 6:37PM|#
Paul,
You stole my joke:
http://www.reason.com/blog/show/125631.html#942814
Mad Max|3.21.08 @ 6:42PM|#
"'Roman Inquisition, while not perfect...'
"Heh. Quite a bold admission there."
Acknowledging human imperfection and sinfulness is hardly a "bold
admission" for a Catholic.
"White Star Line Titanic's maiden voyage, while not perfect, was
much more luxurious than its Cunard Line counterparts."
As far as failed ventures are concerned, the Catholic Church is
still around. In contrast, consider the fate of the following
anti-Catholic movements and persons:
Order of the Star-Spangled Banner ("Know Nothing Party")
Ku Klux Klan
[Deleted in accordance with the requirements of Godwin's Law]
Party
Communist Party of the USSR
The USSR
Otto Von Bismarck and his *Kulturkampf*
John Hagee's influence on the McCain campaign
etc.
Warmongering Lunatic|3.21.08 @ 6:45PM|#
Actually, it is possibly worthwhile to specify "Pope of the Vatican" in Arabic, since the leader of the Coptic Church is the "Pope of Alexandria and Patriarch of All Africa". In fact, the title Pope has been attached to the See of Alexandria for three centuries longer than it has been attached to Rome.
|3.21.08 @ 7:24PM|#
Acknowledging human imperfection and sinfulness is hardly a
"bold admission" for a Catholic.
As far as failed ventures are concerned, the Catholic Church is
still around. In contrast, consider the fate of the following
anti-Catholic movements and persons:
My statement had nothing to do with either acknowledging human
imperfection or failed ventures. Rather I was pointing out the
magnitude of the understatement that is referring to the
Inquisition as "not perfect." Indeed, if by "not perfect" you mean
an act of utter barbarism and evil, due process
notwithstanding.
Famous Mortimer|3.21.08 @ 7:58PM|#
Does anyone else share my fascination with the fact that Islamic
extremists have likely killed more Muslims than the supposed
enemies that they are targeting?
It would be slapstick if it wasn't so bloody.
Mad Max|3.21.08 @ 8:25PM|#
BC,
I discussed the various Inquisitions in order to demonstrate that
I'm happy to discuss Church history and the various distortions
thereof. But my original point stands - the Inquisition (contra
Monty Python) has become fully predictable.
The Inquisition tends to come up on any thread which in any way
touches on the Catholic Church, regardless of relevance - even when
the ostensible topic of the thread is a false accusation against
the Pope by a terrorist whose hands are stained with American
blood.
If Usama had denounced an alleged "Jewish conspiracy," the thread
would have focused exclusively on the absurdity of the charge, and
on how his willingness to spread such lies underscored Usama's
wickedness. Posters wouldn't take the opportunity to make cracks
about "that stupid Old Testament God of the Jews" or otherwise take
try to emphasize their negative attitude toward Judaism.
This particular thread is better than most, I acknowledge, because
until I presumed to take note of "bill's" remarks, most of the
comments [other than "bill's"] were focused on the badness of
Usama. Therefore, H&R posters showed an ability to focus on the
actual issue at hand, which is commendable.
|3.21.08 @ 8:33PM|#
Only 4 people coming across with lines from that wonderful
movie? (OTOH, it's good to see that anyone thinks that way.) "What
do you need a fancy suit for, you got no job to wear it to?" "What
did you say??"
But hey, let's get creative - topic-specific permutations are also
permissible, e.g.:
"Knowin' how to spend it -- I took 200 dinari off shylocks to see
Sinatra in Mecca - sat two seats away from Khomeini. That's what I
call success, pop."
|3.21.08 @ 8:41PM|#
Brian Courts,
The general point to be taken from the wars of religion, the
Inquisition, the involvement of Europe in the slave trade, the
disregard for notions of religious and political freedom, etc. is
that the RCC acted really no worse or no better than the other
corporate authorities which it was both allied with and those it
opposed during the Reformation and Counter-Reformation.
|3.21.08 @ 8:56PM|#
Mad Max,
As far as failed ventures are concerned, the Catholic Church is
still around.
Sort of. It has changed dramatically over the years. For example,
it is no longer the temporal power that it once was.
Abdul|3.21.08 @ 9:15PM|#
Osama talks tough now, but it'll be a different story when he's facing the wrong end of a halberd, with the Swiss Guard on the other end.
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