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The Friday Political Thread: Diamond Club Edition
SUNDAY UPDATE: I'll be appearing on Jim Babka's Downsize DC at 3 p.m. ET, discussing the ins and outs of the Ron Paul campaign. Listen live here.
UPDATE II: A small story on Saturday was the tumble of Barack Obama in two tracking polls - he went from up 8 to up 1 on Clinton in Rasmussen, and from up 5 to up 1 in Gallup. Dean Barnett wondered whether the Jeremiah Wright controversy would curdle and Obama would keep falling. For now: Nope. Obama rose by 2 points in both polls on Saturday night. At Intrade, Obama shares hardly moved at all. The candidate fell from around 76 dollars to 72 dollars when the Wright story went nuclear, and rose from 72 to 73 dollars the next day.
I don't think the story can drag on unless a researcher finds
video of Obama in the audience as Wright drops one of the lines
Obama said he did not hear. I'm not that surprised. I presume that
if Obama had swept the March 4 primaries and knocked Hillary
Clinton out of the race, he'd have done a mea culpa tour on Wright
and Tony Rezko by now. Best to knock this stuff out early and steer
the narrative.
Unconvincing Quote of the Week
"I must now dedicate some time to regain the trust of my family." -
disgraced New York Gov. Eliot Spitzer, March 10.
The Week in Brief
- Barack Obama easily won the
Mississippi primary, the last Democratic contest until
Pennsylvania on April 22.
- The Western Front 1915-style conflict between the Clinton and
Obama surrogates continued. Advisors in trouble this week including
Geraldine Ferraro, who claimed being black gave Barack Obama an
unfair leg up, and Obama's
Rev. Jeremiah Wright, whose habit of saying lunatic things
finally produced video evidence.
- John McCain laughed and pocketed
millions of dollars.
- The mayor of Detroit imploded in a
manner almost as amusing as Eliot Spitzer.
- The House passed its own
version of FISA. Are you enjoying the deadlock? So are the
terrorists.
- The Democrats
lurched toward mulligan elections in Michigan, and maybe in
Florida, to decide their nomination. Hey, remember when they were
about to win the presidency?
Below the Fold
-
Amanda Carpenter watches Kay Bailey Hutchinson knock herself
out of McCain's veepstakes.
- Matt Yglesias has, to my mind, the
best take on Jeremiah Wright.
- Dan Zarella
starts to make the libertarian case for net neutrality, an
issue I haven't thought enough about lately.
- Mary Kane makes
the completely strange argument that our endless wars may be
affecting the economy adversely.
- John Zmirak
ponders the alternate universe where Distributists won the
battle of ideas.
- Scott Jordan
asks David Vitter (remember him?) about Eliot Spitzer.
This week's Politics 'n' Prog winners: Soft Machine.
|3.14.08 @ 5:06PM|#
Yes, the Friday thread
Where, pray tell, is Click n' Learn
With his weekly tripe?
|3.14.08 @ 5:15PM|#
Why has today become "Haiku Day" on H&R? I saw you link to a post from last year, but how did this originate?
|3.14.08 @ 5:16PM|#
Here's how Obama should handle the Wright issue:
"Reverend Wright is from a previous generation. The same generation
as Senator Clinton. And Senator McCain. And President Bush." blah
blah blah how bad politics were in Teh Sixties. "I want to move
this country beyond those politics, that divide us, that set us
against each other, that define our fellow Americans as the
enemy."
Episiarch|3.14.08 @ 5:19PM|#
I should have banged her
One more time for old time's sake
No more whores for me
|3.14.08 @ 5:22PM|#
Oh, bloody hell - let's say 'cash' rather than 'money'... clearly my mind was elsewhere.
|3.14.08 @ 5:25PM|#
It has been a fun week. Everything that libertarians and
Republicans have said about the dangers of Democratic race/gender
identity politics, and about the ruthlessness of the Clintons, is
now on display for everyone. Even Paul Krugman is complaining about
it. Heh.
The Spitzer thing was interesting on many levels. Who knew there
were $4,300 hookers? And that that dough only gets you
this? Not bad, but for $4,300 I'd want a weekend threesome with
the physical reincarnations of
Rita Hayworth,
Paulette Goddard, and
Hedy Lamarr.
Episiarch|3.14.08 @ 5:33PM|#
Who could have known that
The feds track large wire transfers
Oh, me--that is who
Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L|3.14.08 @ 5:33PM|#
Not bad, but for $4,300 I'd want a weekend threesome with
the physical reincarnations of Rita Hayworth, Paulette Goddard, and
Hedy Lamarr.
That's Hedley!
Click \'n\' Learn|3.14.08 @ 5:36PM|#
1. My roundup of the Spitzer affair
has several links at the end about his previous contempt for the
laws of the land. While I wouldn't have predicted his downfall
would be because of hookers, the previous incident showed that he
was corrupt. He even went as far as changing the MotorVoter
rules for all those who'd get those forms with their new
NY DLs.
2. I have to admit that some - just some - of Wright's comments
aren't that "lunatic" and might warrant more discussion. Even more
so with GF's comments; her point was that "being black gave Barack
Obama an unfair leg up" because of the media and at this particular
point in time and not so much at other times. Perhaps Reason could
consider, instead of supporting MMFA-style witchhunting, an open
discussion of controversial topics.
3. CorporateGlobalGovernance? Thank
a Cosmotarian.
4. New! This week's prog antidote is available in
both the original
extra-strength version as well as a special, gentle,
Safe-for-SIV version.
highnumber|3.14.08 @ 5:46PM|#
Soft Machine's a change
from the usual prog crap.
It's tolerable.
Politics and Punk
That would be more to my taste
What do you say, Dave?
|3.14.08 @ 5:47PM|#
being black gave Barack Obama an unfair leg up
Even assuming that being black somehow gave Obama a leg up, I can't
conceive of a way in which it is 'unfair.' I fail to see much
'fair' in the American political process, especially at the
presidential level. To me, saying Obama's race gave him an 'unfair'
leg up is like saying Hillary already being a household name due to
having been First Lady gave her an 'unfair' leg up. When we talk
about 'fairness' shouldn't we talk about dishonest behavior that
people can alter?
|3.14.08 @ 5:50PM|#
So, first he was a secret Muslim, but now they're attacking his preacher? Make up your mind.
|3.14.08 @ 5:53PM|#
Perhaps Reason could consider, instead of supporting MMFA-style witchhunting, an open discussion of controversial topics
I especially take exception to this. I do think "reason" has
encouraged open discussion on these topics. All sorts of
perspectives have been expressed in these threads. I think the site
typically gives appropriate latitude to us amateur pundits.
Relax...have a drink!
|3.14.08 @ 5:54PM|#
Not bad, but for $4,300 I'd want a weekend threesome with
the physical reincarnations of Rita Hayworth, Paulette Goddard, and
Hedy Lamarr.
Wouldn't that be a foursome? Or would you not be there?
Fluffy|3.14.08 @ 5:56PM|#
I tend to look askance at historical revisionism and
anti-western-culture hatred of the "Anthropology Department"
variety, I really don't find all that much very objectionable in
Obama's pastor's comments.
For most of its history, the United States did not possess a
legitimate government from the perspective of its African-American
population. That makes the sort of smug tut-tutting coming out of
shitholes like the Corner about how "wrong" it is for this guy to
damn America a bit tough to take.
I really can't think of any reason for any black Christian leader
to NOT do a continual impersonation of the prophet Jeremiah.
Fluffy|3.14.08 @ 6:07PM|#
I hate Haiku Day.
At least it's only once a year.
And no, I don't want to be visited by the Ghosts of Haiku Day past,
present and future, either. A-hole ghosts can talk to the hand.
Fluffy|3.14.08 @ 6:11PM|#
Joe, I think the way to handle the Wright thing is to say:
The only people who think black people shouldn't critique their
experience with America are slavery apologists and segregation
apologists. If America had treated Africans in a Christian way,
America wouldn't have to worry about the recriminations of black
Christians.
In other words, Go Fuck Yourself.
I know, I know. I always advise the Go Fuck Yourself
approach. But it's just always the most satisfying.
|3.14.08 @ 6:15PM|#
Oops, that would be a foursome . . . the fantasy interfered with my arithmetic skills. . . .
|3.14.08 @ 6:17PM|#
The Wife's Lament
Standing at his side
it finally hits her
She probably shouldn't support
Men named Spitzer.
Dan Zarella starts to make the libertarian case for net
neutrality, an issue I haven't thought enough about
lately.
No one has. Anyone who has attempted to educate themselves about
the issue ends up being found at their desks 10 minuets later in a
boredom-induced coma.
|3.14.08 @ 6:21PM|#
Joe, to claim AIDS was invented to kill blacks, that drugs are a government plot, to say "God damn America" from a pulpit, etc. etc. isn't a "critique" of the "black experience with America," it's far-left lunacy. But hey, let's see Obama try your approach. At least his b.s. post-racial/trans-partisan mask would off.
Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L|3.14.08 @ 6:24PM|#
Pi Day is today
A magazine called "Reason"
Ignores it, so drink.
|3.14.08 @ 6:26PM|#
I forgot it's pi day. I'm posting my best pie recipes today,
then.
Zuccotto
Nonstick cooking spray
1 (12-ounce) loaf pound cake
1/4 cup brandy
6 ounces bittersweet chocolate, chopped
2 cups chilled whipping cream
1/2 teaspoon pure almond extract
1/4 cup powdered sugar
1/2 cup sliced almonds, toasted, coarsely crumbled
Unsweetened cocoa powder
Spray a 1 1/2-quart bowl with nonstick cooking spray. Line the bowl
with plastic wrap. Cut the pound cake crosswise into 1/3-inch-thick
slices. Cut each slice diagonally in half, forming 2 triangles.
Line the bottom and sides of the prepared bowl with the cake
triangles. Brush some of the brandy over the cake triangles lining
the bowl. Reserve the extra triangles.
Stir the chocolate in a large metal bowl set over a saucepan of
simmering water until the chocolate melts. Allow the chocolate to
cool slightly. Using an electric mixer, beat 1 cup of cream in
another large bowl until it is thick and fluffy. Fold 1/4 of the
whipped cream into the chocolate. Fold half of the remaining
whipped cream into the chocolate mixture. Fold in the remaining
whipped cream. Spread the chocolate cream over the cake, covering
completely and creating a well in the center. Cover and refrigerate
if not assembling cake right away.
In another clean large bowl, add the remaining 1 cup of cream and
almond extract. Using an electric mixer with clean beaters, beat on
medium speed and gradually add the powdered sugar. Beat until firm
peaks form. Fold in the nuts. Spoon the cream mixture into the
center of the well of the filling.
Brush the remaining cake slices with brandy and arrange them,
brandy side down, over the cake, covering the filling completely
and trimming to fit, if necessary. Cover the cake with plastic wrap
and refrigerate at least 3 hours and up to 1 day.
Invert the cake onto a platter. Remove the bowl and the plastic
wrap. Sift the cocoa powder over and serve.
|3.14.08 @ 6:28PM|#
"Do you really the sex?"
Ha, ha! joe can't count
Typical dirty hippie
Get a job, hippie!
Click \'n\' Learn|3.14.08 @ 6:30PM|#
Art-P.O.G. opines: I do think "reason" has encouraged open
discussion on these topics.
I can look through my saved Reason comments for all the times I've
pointed out when they've substituted smears (nativist, xenophobe,
etc.) for a "reason"ed discussion of the matter. At least when the
profits of crooked corporations are at stake, Reason is anything
but interested in a fair debate.
Click here to read my previous comment.
Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L|3.14.08 @ 6:32PM|#
Math is really cool,
Though it doesn't do a thing
To help me get laid.
Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L|3.14.08 @ 6:33PM|#
for a "reason"ed discussion of the matter.
Thanks, Lonewacko. That's a legit drink!
|3.14.08 @ 6:36PM|#
Math is really cool,
Though it doesn't do a thing
To help me get laid.
Yet Steven Hawkings
gets lot of ass. The problem
must just be your own.
Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L|3.14.08 @ 6:37PM|#
Two Guinnesses in
My belly ain't enough to do it.
Bye fuckers - later!
|3.14.08 @ 6:37PM|#
to say "God damn America" from a pulpit,
I prefer the Serenity Prayer. And truthfully, I'm more of an
optimist.
|3.14.08 @ 6:38PM|#
I don't think the country will elect a black guy with two years in the Senate whose middle name is "Hussein" and is tied to Chicago politics, basically. If he were a Republican, he could win, but Democrats always run shitty campaigns.
Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L|3.14.08 @ 6:43PM|#
My friends, my dear friends,
My wonderful friends, my friends
My friends, vote for me.
|3.14.08 @ 6:43PM|#
Nee Ashley Youmans.
Now Dupre. Alexandra
is her middle name.
But, how hot is she?
Did she learn her sex technique
in North Korea?
Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L|3.14.08 @ 6:45PM|#
It wasn't that great,
But at least I typed it quickly
Haikus are for tools.
Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L|3.14.08 @ 6:46PM|#
Bet on the Clintons
Even though they are behind
They'll beat him, I swear!
Click \'n\' Learn|3.14.08 @ 6:47PM|#
Now that everyone's had their drinks, guess how many accounts I have here.
Paul|3.14.08 @ 6:48PM|#
"I must now dedicate some time to regain the trust of my
family."
yes, so long as his family includes, but is not limited to, the
following:
The State of New York.
The People of the State of New York.
The Law.
The spirit of the law.
His party.
The office of the governor.
Democracy.
Every criminal ever put in jail for doing the exact same
thing.
The American Bar Association.
Libertarianism.
Me.
Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L|3.14.08 @ 6:48PM|#
Sorry I think I have some syllables wrong in some of these. I really do need some more to drink.
|3.14.08 @ 6:50PM|#
In a time of war
The promise of a better future
Is not always clear
Other Wars my friends
Theres going to be other wars
Other wars my friends
|3.14.08 @ 7:30PM|#
Actually, he's going back up, in all the tracking polls, to a statistically significant lead over Clinton.
|3.14.08 @ 7:30PM|#
LoneWacko, poor man
thinks hard, still comes up empty
wetbacks took his jarb
accounts he has none
at another location
ban hammer enforced
Episiarch|3.14.08 @ 7:44PM|#
The people loved me
Then I "loved" Dupre, and now
Ho no!, says the Post
Jim Morrison|3.14.08 @ 7:46PM|#
"This week's Politics 'n' Prog winners: Soft Machine."
Great cover of "Riders on the Storm"!
|3.14.08 @ 7:50PM|#
He was gifted but
trust me endowment is a
prison of its own.
Cooperate or
Defect? It does not matter
When you're in his bed.
Fluffy|3.14.08 @ 7:53PM|#
Papaya, every one of the Old Testament prophets called down the
damnation of God upon Israel.
Moses called down the damnation of God upon Egypt. To the point of
the mass extermination of innocents.
America didn't do that much better by Africans than Egypt did by
the Hebrews. And by the standards of the Bible, we're not much
better than late Israel before the Babylonian Captivity.
Hey, it's not MY Bible. But Christianity is supposedly based on it,
and this guy Wright is supposedly a Christian, right?
And as for the AIDS and drugs stuff, 30 years ago I would have
pronounced it ludicrous if someone claimed that the CIA would sell
drugs in the inner city to fund its operations. But that turned out
to be true. When ludicrous shit about your government turns out to
be true, I forgive you if you believe other ludicrous shit about
the government.
This is like when the Corner cunts demand "denunciation" of the
asinine things Harry Belafonte sometimes has to say. And you know,
the thing about a guy like Belafonte is that he's old enough to
have been kicked out of Vegas if he tried to sleep in a hotel where
he performed, or to have been chased out of towns in the South if
someone in his tour bus failed to show some cracker the proper
"respect". On that basis, if he says something stupid I cut him
some slack.
|3.14.08 @ 8:00PM|#
On that basis, if he says something stupid I cut him some
slack.
four years in a concentration camp didn't make primo levi say
stupid things.
(if you want to count that as a nazi reference, then, drink! i have
a bolognani moscato)
|3.14.08 @ 8:22PM|#
Peanut Butter Pie
6 1/2 ounces chocolate wafers
1 tablespoon sugar
5 ounces unsalted butter, room temperature, divided
1 batch AB's homemade peanut butter, recipe follows
3 ounces powdered sugar, approximately 3/4 cup
1 teaspoon vanilla extract
2 ounces good quality bittersweet chocolate, chopped
1/4 cup plus 1 tablespoon heavy cream
Preheat the oven to 350 degrees F.
In the bowl of a food processor, combine the wafers and 1
tablespoon sugar. Process until the wafers are fine crumbs. Melt 3
ounces of the butter and drizzle into the crumb mixture. Pulse to
combine. Press this mixture into the bottom, up the sides and just
over the lip of a 9-inch metal pie pan. Place in the oven on the
middle rack and bake for 10 minutes. Remove from the oven and cool
completely.
After the crust has cooled, place the peanut butter and remaining 2
ounces of butter into the bowl of the food processor. Process for 1
minute. Add the powdered sugar and vanilla and process for another
1 1/2 to 2 minutes or until smooth. Carefully spread the mixture
into the pie shell and return to the oven to bake for 10 minutes.
Remove from the oven and allow to cool while preparing the
topping.
Place the heavy cream into a heat-proof bowl and microwave on high
just until simmering, approximately 30 seconds. Remove the cream
from the microwave and add the chocolate. Make sure the chocolate
is completely submersed in the cream. Allow to sit for 2 minutes.
Gently whisk until the chocolate is melted and combined with the
cream, approximately 2 to 3 minutes.
Spread the chocolate mixture over the pie and chill in the
refrigerator for 1 1/2 hours before serving.
Homemade Peanut Butter:
15 ounces shelled and skinned AB's roasted peanuts, recipe
follows
1 teaspoon kosher salt
1 1/2 teaspoons honey
1 1/2 tablespoons peanut oil
Place the peanuts, salt and honey into the bowl of a food
processor. Process for 1 minute. Scrape down the sides of the bowl.
Place the lid back on and continue to process while slowly
drizzling in the oil and process until the mixture is smooth,
approximately 1 1/2 to 2 minutes. Place the peanut butter in an
airtight container and store in the refrigerator for up to 2
months.
Yield: approximately 1 1/2 cups
Roasted Peanuts:
2 pounds in-shell raw peanuts*
2 tablespoons peanut oil
1 to 2 tablespoons kosher salt
*Cooks note: If eating peanuts roasted right out of the shell, use
Virginia or Valencia peanuts. If utilizing roasted peanuts to make
peanut butter, use Spanish peanuts as they have a higher oil
content.
Preheat the oven to 350 degrees F.
Rinse the peanuts under cool water to remove excess dirt. Pat dry
and place in a large bowl and toss with the peanut oil and salt
until well coated.
Place on 2 half sheet pans, making sure to spread them out into a
single layer. Roast in the oven for 30 to 35 minutes, rotating the
pans halfway through cooking. Once you remove the peanuts from the
oven, let them cool slightly before eating. They will continue to
"cook" and become crunchy as they cool.
If using peanuts to make peanut butter, remove shells and discard.
Remove the skin by rubbing the peanuts together in your hands held
over a salad spinner, allowing the peanuts and skins to fall into
the bowl. Once the skin has been loosened from all of the peanuts
close the salad spinner and spin until all of the skin has been
separated from the peanuts.
Yield: approximately 2 pounds roasted peanuts in shell
|3.14.08 @ 8:22PM|#
Well, Fluffy, the evidence for the CIA dealing drugs in US
cities "to fund operations" is thin to nonexistent, but I suppose
that never stops conspiracy theorists from grasping at what straws
they can.
But face facts: Rev. Wright is a far-left nut, and Obama's decades
of close association and support make this more than "guilt by
association." You can make all the excuses you want, but this sort
of Ward Churchill b.s. is despised by 80%+ of the American public,
thankfully.
If McCain went to a church where whose tenets included a "white
value system" and "allegiance to Caucasia" and gave awards to David
Duke, would that bother you at all? Is that sort of racialism only
OK for certain groups? Because I dislike it anywhere I see it.
|3.14.08 @ 8:24PM|#
I've been friends with people who hold political views from socialist to neo-conservative and everywhere inbetween. Believe it nor not, it IS possible to be a good friend with someone without holding their political views. Yes, even one with nutty views.
Sambo|3.14.08 @ 8:25PM|#
"he's old enough to have been kicked out of Vegas if he tried to
sleep in a hotel where he performed, or to have been chased out of
towns in the South if someone in his tour bus failed to show some
cracker the proper "respect". On that basis, if he says something
stupid I cut him some slack."
This is 21st century America. Let it go.
|3.14.08 @ 9:00PM|#
This is a good exchange:
On that basis, if he says something stupid I cut him some
slack.
four years in a concentration camp didn't make primo levi say
stupid things.
Nobody - certainly not Barack Obama - is holding up this guy as an
important political thinker, edna.
Tell you what: I'm totally not going to vote for Jeremiah
Wright.
|3.14.08 @ 9:02PM|#
Well, years of being tortured did make John McCain say "I hate the fucking gooks, and always will" edna.
|3.14.08 @ 9:14PM|#
Three point one four two
Eight five seven one four two six...
Ice cream or Cool Whip?
Fluffy|3.14.08 @ 10:16PM|#
If McCain went to a church where whose tenets included a
"white value system" and "allegiance to Caucasia" and gave awards
to David Duke, would that bother you at all?
Hagee and Robertson = Farrakhan and Wright.
Actually, I think the first pair might win the hand. A pair of
queens beats a pair of jacks.
Personally, I think the war on drugs and the prison industrial
complex alone justify a black religious leader saying "Fuck
America". The only reason I personally don't walk around saying
"Fuck America" 1000 times a day is because I draw a distinction
between America the nation and my political enemies. Not everyone
can avoid the cognitive trap of conflating the nation with the
dominant factions of its political class, I guess.
Wright-style radicalism, while misguided, is still about a billion
times more justified than thinking the Catholic Church is a demonic
conspiracy, or saying that God should punish the US with terrorist
attacks for allowing homosexuals to walk free and women to work
outside the home.
|3.14.08 @ 10:25PM|#
If McCain went to a church where whose tenets included a
"white value system" and "allegiance to Caucasia" and gave awards
to David Duke, would that bother you at all? Is that sort of
racialism only OK for certain groups? Because I dislike it anywhere
I see it.
No, I don't consider a commitment to the advancement of the
African-American community to be the equivalent of a commitment to
the advancement of the white race.
But then, I have a passing familiarity with the history of this
country, in addition to the ability to construct facile linguistic
parallels. I am actually familiar with what it means to have a
commitment to the former - like Martin Luther King did, like the
NAACP did - and with what it means to have a commitment to the
latter - like David Duke did, like the NSDAP did - and I don't
consider them to be the same thing. Because they are not, and have
not ever been, the same thing.
Fluffy, this country has a lot to answer for in its treatment of
black people, but inventing AIDS to kill Africans isn't a part of
that.
Click \'n\' Learn|3.14.08 @ 10:30PM|#
~~~~~~ URGENT LIBERTARIAN ACTION ALERT ~~~~~~
On tonight's ABC show, JohnStossel will be discussing the age of
consent. A fake poll they showed asked what age you would select,
and had those ages listed as... wait for it... 18, 16, and
14.
PLEASE WRITE ABC NEWS ABOUT THIS OUTRAGE!
Clearly, they've gotten to JohnStossel, forcing him to raise the
AOC from the libertarian-suggested 1 to the shockingly-high and
unlibertarian 14.
14????? What do they think libertarians are, the Democrats????
GunnerMan|3.14.08 @ 10:33PM|#
Man named Carmack,
fortune made on his math skill,
Got a wife named Kang,
Who is hotter than hell.
Someone Who Doesn\'t Want to L|3.14.08 @ 11:39PM|#
OK I had enough to drink now! By the way, got a woman's
number!
Ali: Drew Homer Simpson eating a pie on my chalkboard today, so no
shame in not getting to Pi day before me.
I have won the thread
Since I have said so in a
Haiku, no quibbles...
|3.14.08 @ 11:58PM|#
Who wants to bet we're gonna see a lot of 527 ads with
Wright in them?
Oh, you betcha! The Republicans and their backers are going to run
with this like only "rich white people" can. It's going to stick
too.
|3.15.08 @ 12:21AM|#
man...tucker carlson's msnbc show was cancelled today. :/ no reason to watch msnbc anymore.
Bingo|3.15.08 @ 2:20AM|#
~~~~~~ URGENT LIBERTARIAN ACTION ALERT ~~~~~~
On tonight's ABC show, JohnStossel will be discussing the age of consent. A fake poll they showed asked what age you would select, and had those ages listed as... wait for it... 18, 16, and 14.
PLEASE WRITE ABC NEWS ABOUT THIS OUTRAGE!
Clearly, they've gotten to JohnStossel, forcing him to raise the AOC from the libertarian-suggested 1 to the shockingly-high and unlibertarian 14.
14????? What do they think libertarians are, the Democrats????
wtf
|3.15.08 @ 2:36AM|#
First, let me say that I don't agree with Wright's comments, but
let me say that I understand them within a context.
Fire-and-brimstone preachers typically seem to have left-wing or
right-wing politics in the weft of their sermons. If you've ever
been to a large Black church in an urban area, you'll probably see
race and distrust of the government as recurring themes.
As far as why churches sometimes seem to be segregated, I've
certainly been to predominantly white and predominantly black
churches where "outsiders" didn't seem too welcomed.
I'm trying to say that Wright is not some isolated nut that Obama
has tracked down, but actually sort of a recurring cultural
phenomenon.
My mom walked out of a church once because one of the deacons was
basically telling people to vote democrat. Interestingly, this sort
of thing once encouraged African-Americans to get out en masse to
vote for Clinton and now is probably encouraging voters to go for
Obama instead of Hillary.
For the record, I think churches should be about moral support and
charity and not so much politics, but "it is what it is".
alan|3.15.08 @ 3:31AM|#
I'm a Deist by instinct, and from my perspective, though the
remark was crude, the 'God Damn America' was not so much offensive
as it was in error. Like Dylan's tune, 'God on Their Side', with
the refrain, 'too many have died with God on their side', there is
no nation that has God on their side, and conversely, none that are
uniquely damned by God.
Many Black leaders speak of America as if she were uniquely evil
instead of being all too typical of the human condition. It is the
same smugness, but in drag, that we find in Neocon Nationalist who
preach of the goodness of these United States.
I particularly hated Stephen Ambrose's rhetoric about the unique
nature of the American soldier as a beacon of hope instead of a
force of terror in the world. It is historical bullshit, as there
have been a few instances where we were greeted as liberators, and
far many more where our tanks rolled on the battle field in
deliverance of collateral damage.
For me, it brings about a few questions: given the propensity
towards irrational sentimentality that preachers have and the
influence they weld on a large number of people, to what extent are
they a destructive force in society?
BTW, on a lighter note, if you were to reword 'God Bless America'
into its opposite tune, how would it go?
God Damn American, My Hell, bitter Hell?
alan|3.15.08 @ 3:34AM|#
I particularly hated Stephen Ambrose's rhetoric about the
unique nature of the American soldier as a beacon of hope instead
of a force of terror in the world.
To be clarify, he was stating that the American soldier was unique
as unlike every other nation's soldier, he was not feared by the
people, but brought them hope.
alan|3.15.08 @ 3:35AM|#
to be clear, to clarify, I couldn't make up my mind which phrase sounded better, so I mangle both as a compromise.
|3.15.08 @ 6:42AM|#
Certainly no one, including Rev. Jeremiah Wright, should
compliment Louis Farrakhan. If this what Hit & Run is referring
to by calling him a "lunatic," fine.
It seems, however, to be another time this blog has teamed up with
Talk Radio to denounce people who are not stringent
nationalists.
(see the blog's praise of war-monger and neocon jackass Jonah
Goldberg)
The things Wright has been denounced for saying by Talk Radio are a
bit hyperbolic but, like Art-P.O.G. said, it makes sense in
context.
Wright denounces America's unjust wars, foreign policy blunders,
human rights violations and, whether white men like me like it or
not, the fact that public policy tends to favor rich and powerful
(white) people and fuck over minorities, particularly black men
(i.e. the war on drugs and the justice system.)
Eric Dondero|3.15.08 @ 7:47AM|#
Next shoe to drop:
Obama identitied as participant in Farrakhan's Million Man March on
DC.
|3.15.08 @ 7:51AM|#
Many Black leaders speak of America as if she were uniquely evil instead of being all too typical of the human condition. It is the same smugness, but in drag, that we find in Neocon Nationalist who preach of the goodness of these United States.
Very well said.
|3.15.08 @ 7:58AM|#
Obama identitied as participant in Farrakhan's Million Man March on DC
I think Spike Lee, Goodie MOb and Lord knows who else were there,
too. Even though Farrakhan's views are way out of the mainstream,
"The Million Man March" got Farrakhan some respect as an organizer.
If this sort of thing passes as "controversy" I really don't know
what to say.
onlyalad|3.15.08 @ 8:40AM|#
Sigh. The same bunch of folks who jumped all over Ron Paul for
his newsletters are willing to give Obama a pass for what I think
is more or less the same thing.
After all the fracas, it looked like RP's newsletters were written
by someone else. Clearly it wasn't Obama himself who said God Damn
America either. But both candidates are closely associated with the
people who did say/write those things. If you expected Paul to
immediately explain himself, why not Obama?
I don't think Obama believes in those things himself (although
judging by his wife's comments I do wonder what kind of talk goes
on in the Obama home) but it looks bad all the same, and will
probably hurt him in the general election because let's face it,
the GE is all about image anyway.
As far as putting Wright's remarks "into context" making them
understandable and all...well that only works if you buy into the
idea that "blacks can't be racist." They can be and are all the
time, maybe even more so than whites.
|3.15.08 @ 8:58AM|#
if you buy into the idea that "blacks can't be racist." They can be and are all the time,
Dude, I'm black. You don't have to tell me. In fact I subscribe to
"ego trip's Big Book of Racism" theory that everybody is basically
some kind of bigot.
I personally didn't jump all over Paul and I didn't jump all over
Obama either. So at least from my perspective, my behavior is
consistent.
Fluffy|3.15.08 @ 8:58AM|#
Onlyalad,
For the most part, Wright's Afrocentrism hasn't really been the
part to "stick" in the faux-outrage game being played here. It's
been the anti-Americanism.
I think the Afrocentrism is juvenile and sophmoric.
But it's just silly for libertarians in particular to walk around
shaking our heads and muttering about this guy's supposed
anti-Americanism, because as I've pointed out before if you add up
all the things libertarians say are unjust and wrong about America,
we pretty much "hate" America too.
Read this blog for a couple of days. Just about every entry is a
lament of the foolishnes, mendacity, injustice or cruelty of the
political class. Just about every one. And most of our heroes don't
appear on no stamps either.
If Radley Balko was a preacher, would he at some point have said,
"God damn Mississippi"? I think he would have.
Episiarch|3.15.08 @ 9:51AM|#
Who cares what Obama's preacher had to say? These guys are
insane already: they believe in voices in the sky*.
However, I would say that this torpedoes Obama's campaign (cue
scary "Hillary did it" music). But since Spitzer (my favorite
subject) also kneecaps Hillary to an extent, and Obama is ahead in
delegates, this merely evens them again.
Which increases the chances of a convention bloodbath. I love
it!
I'm afraid of when Spitzer is out of the headlines. I'm like a drug
addict; his fall is my fix, and when it's gone I'm going to crash
:-(
* can't take it with you when you die
|3.15.08 @ 10:39AM|#
onlyalad,
If you expected Paul to immediately explain himself, why not
Obama?
I do, and he did. He denounced what Wright said, and could do so
more credibly than Paul, because Wright's sermons weren't going out
above Obama's name, with his endorsement.
VM|3.15.08 @ 11:01AM|#
onlyalad -
what joe said. your confirmation bias is alive and kicking, it
appears.
|3.15.08 @ 11:15AM|#
I'm afraid of when Spitzer is out of the headlines. I'm like
a drug addict; his fall is my fix, and when it's gone I'm going to
crash :-(
Not to woory, Episiarch. Click here
for the next couple of weeks. It's an intro to loads and loads of
sleazy pleasure.
Neu Mejican|3.15.08 @ 11:19AM|#
If Radley Balko was a preacher, would he at some point have
said, "God damn Mississippi"? I think he would have.
Or "Mississippi, God Damn."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckarOiWLLtY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEX19zLQezU
BTS|3.15.08 @ 11:25AM|#
A day late, I know:
Kill Ms. Clinton
I'll love you forever
But you'll go to jail
Neu Mejican|3.15.08 @ 11:33AM|#
Open thread?
This paper, then, is a serious analysis of a ridiculous
subject, which is of course the opposite of what is usual in
economics.
http://www.princeton.edu/~pkrugman/interstellar.pdf
Neu Mejican|3.15.08 @ 11:44AM|#
Ali,
Would have gone better in the "Doritoes in Space" thread, but I
figured the H&R crowd had the right intersection between sci-fi
geek & economic theorists that someone would enjoy it.
3quarksdaily.com for more of this kind of stuff.
A great blog.
|3.15.08 @ 11:59AM|#
Many Black leaders speak of America as if she were uniquely evil instead of being all too typical of the human condition. It is the same smugness, but in drag, that we find in Neocon Nationalist who preach of the goodness of these United States.
Great statement, one of the best analysis I've heard. People often
act like the United States is either God almighty or Satan himself.
The truth, as always, is in the middle.
I'm sick of hearing both attitudes, but I've heard the former much
more than the latter, particularly around 2002-2003. It made me
sick.
|3.15.08 @ 12:04PM|#
Speaking from a purely political viewpoint, though: this is going to dog him the rest of the campaign.
Ali|3.15.08 @ 12:12PM|#
NM- Cool website. The video of Wafa Sultan is full of a lot of crap, though.
|3.15.08 @ 12:32PM|#
Speaking from a purely political viewpoint, though: this is
going to dog him the rest of the campaign.
Agreed.
|3.15.08 @ 1:16PM|#
And its unfortunate that it will. Swiftboat politics at its
"best".
I am assuming that this is all from the Clinton campaign or it's
shadow supporters. It seems to me if the McCain folks had this,
they'd hold onto it until after the Democratic convention. Never
over estimate the voters attention spans. This will all be water
under the bridge by November.
Whipper|3.15.08 @ 1:17PM|#
So now Reason promotes loveable old wheelchair-bound Stalinists? Must be a cosmo thing.
|3.15.08 @ 1:20PM|#
J sub D-
I agree its probably from Clinton. McCain, to his credit, doesn't
seem to want to run that kind of campaign.
But I don't think it will be forgotten. Remember, it was none other
than Al Gore who first brought up Willie Horton against Dukakis in
1988.
|3.15.08 @ 1:40PM|#
BTW, in case anyone missed it, we lost our spot for the first time as the worlds largest economy this week thanks to the weak dollar.
|3.15.08 @ 2:02PM|#
Cesar- Who did we loose it to? China, I am guessing.
Nope. European Union.
If "European Union" is an economy, shouldn't NAFTA signatories be one economy as well? If so, how does that stack up?
|3.15.08 @ 2:03PM|#
J Sub D-
I should've said "Euro zone". It doesn't include the countries
which haven't brought their economies up to get the Euro yet in
Eastern Europe.
NAFTA would probably be larger, though I'm not sure. Nevertheless
we don't have a common currency so thats why its not compared.
|3.15.08 @ 2:19PM|#
NAFTA would probably be larger, though I'm not sure.
Nevertheless we don't have a common currency so thats why its not
compared.
I see. Somehow I'm unconcerned. Along those (NAFTA) lines, I
propose expanding the agreement across the Pacific by including
Australia and New Zealand.. The North American Australasian Free
Trade Agreement (NAAFTA) would be something to behold. Lonewacko
could then start railing about Maoris.
|3.15.08 @ 2:22PM|#
J sub D, I can tell our economy is in the shitter every week when I go to the grocery store. Food prices are outrageous now. Have you seen what a pound of beef or chicken costs?
|3.15.08 @ 2:34PM|#
Cesar | March 15, 2008, 12:04pm | #
Speaking from a purely political viewpoint, though: this is going
to dog him the rest of the campaign.
Sure it will, but that doesn't mean it will necessarily be fatal.
Questions about Dubya's National Guard service dogged him through
the 2004 campaign.
He did a good job minimizing it last night. It's not gone, of
course. It's just, as the firefighters say, contained, or mostly
contained.
|3.15.08 @ 2:38PM|#
Joe I think this is more like Kerry throwing his Vietnam medals over the fence and then making that ridiculous speech in front of a Senate committee than Bush's national guard service.
|3.15.08 @ 2:39PM|#
J Sub D, Cesar,
I am assuming that this is all from the Clinton campaign or
it's shadow supporters.
I think it's notable that this story came out immediately after
McCain took hits for associating with two loony reverends of his
own.
McCain, to his credit, doesn't seem to want to run that kind of
campaign. He hasn't, but a certain segment of his supporters
certainly do.
I think Obama is in a better position to beat this back than
Dukakis, because the message he's been preaching the entire
campaign - the post-racial, unity, hopeful message, and the
wonderfulness of a country where someone like him can be a
presidential candidate - run directly counter to what Wright has
been saying. So, unlike Dukakis being charged with being "soft on
crime," Obama can point to his own record and statements to refute
the charge.
He's also a much more skilled politician than Mike Dukakis.
Ali|3.15.08 @ 2:40PM|#
I never had a rent increase by as much as $100 due to inflation. Tuition, at a couple of colleges that I am acquainted with, have increased their tuition by 12%. All the time, incomes will probably stay the same.
vm|3.15.08 @ 2:40PM|#
china??? you have got to be kidding!
those measurements are pretty silly anyways.
|3.15.08 @ 2:42PM|#
Cesar,
Joe I think this is more like Kerry throwing his Vietnam medals
over the fence and then making that ridiculous speech in front of a
Senate committee than Bush's national guard service. How
so?
I think this is unlike both of them, since in both of those
situations, it was the candidate himself who engaged in the
questionable activities.
And what was wrong with Kerry's speech? Have you ever read it?
|3.15.08 @ 2:42PM|#
Joe, Republican attacks turned John Kerry from a war hero to a leftist coward. That ran counter to the facts mostly, too. It didn't stop it from being effective.
|3.15.08 @ 2:43PM|#
I think anyone who followed the 2004 election heard Kerry's speech many times in the swiftboat ads. You know, the stuff about limbs being cut off and testicles being electrocuted. Nice stuff.
|3.15.08 @ 2:45PM|#
Cesar,
Few people ended up believing the Swift Boat smears. The harm those
charges did to Kerry came from his absent, inadequate response,
which made him look like he couldn't fight back and run an
effective campaign.
Obama doesn't have that problem, because he responded
immediately.
|3.15.08 @ 2:46PM|#
So, no, you didn't read his speech.
It was a good speech, and his charges have been borne out. Yes,
Virginia, the US military really did commit atrocities in
Vietnam.
|3.15.08 @ 2:48PM|#
Joe, Vietnam Veterans Against the War was and is a pretty fringe group. He wasn't helped by his membership in it.
|3.15.08 @ 2:49PM|#
I hope Obama if hes the nominee and McCain make some kind of agreement about 527s. Clinton wouldn't, though.
|3.15.08 @ 2:49PM|#
He's also a much more skilled politician than Mike
Dukakis.
Zippy the Pinhead is a more skilled politician than Dukakis.
Click \'n\' Learn|3.15.08 @ 2:53PM|#
J sub D writes: The North American Australasian Free Trade
Agreement (NAAFTA) would be something to behold. Lonewacko could
then start railing about Maoris.
Gosh, useful idiots are such fun, aren't they? See the third point
in my first comment on this thread.
There are other useful idiot opportunities too. For instance, you
can see a movie funded by
the MexicanGovernment that, oddly enough, supports that
government's efforts to profit from IllegalActivity.
|3.15.08 @ 2:55PM|#
VVAW did, indeed, become a very fringe group, Cesar, especially
later. But by all accounts, Kerry was a moderating influence. He
also quit when it started to go hard-left.
His testimony to Congress was completely defensible. Which made it
that much more frustrating that he refused to defend it. I found it
on a site from "Vietnam Veterans Against John Kerry." It's mostly
about the poor quality of the treatment veterans were getting, and
the pointlessness of the war.
|3.15.08 @ 2:56PM|#
BTW, does anyone know who "The weathermen" are? Some right-wing sites keep saying Obama was part of the "Weathermen" or had some kind of connection to them. Sounds like a band name.
|3.15.08 @ 2:57PM|#
Zippy the Pinhead is a more skilled politician than
Dukakis.
I've seen Mike Dukakis person. He's witty, charismatic, quick on
his feet, and highly intelligent and educated.
I think it was a problem of letting his consultants over-ride his
own judgement in '88, like Kerry did in '04.
|3.15.08 @ 3:05PM|#
Obama is on CNN right now, speaking from Indiana.
He's doing what I wrote earlier, casting Wright's inflammatory
statements as an example of what he's running against: old,
racially divisive thinking.
Nice ju-jistu. It casts those who bring up Wright as the ones
promoting racial divisiveness.
|3.15.08 @ 3:07PM|#
It's a tough trick to pull off, but he's able to do it, because
he's spent over a year pushing that same message.
It might end up helping him, and not only with the Muslim thing. He
just might be able to use this to highlight how different his
beliefs are from people like Wright.
|3.15.08 @ 3:08PM|#
I've seen Mike Dukakis person. He's witty, charismatic,
quick on his feet, and highly intelligent and educated.
giving him his due, he did double George Wallace's 1968 electoral
vote tally. Face it joe, Massachusetts hasn't produced a full assed
national politician since JFK. Lots of half assed national
politicians, (Dukakis, Teddy Kennedy, Mitt Romney, some guy in
2004), but nobody who could go national.
|3.15.08 @ 3:09PM|#
Well, I'm not sure if you can really count Mitt Romney as "from Massachusetts". Hes kind of a Michiglander-via-Utah to Massachusetts.
|3.15.08 @ 3:15PM|#
J sub D,
John Kerry came closer to unseating an incumbent wartime president
than anyone in American history. He covered the spread, and that's
not too bad.
|3.15.08 @ 3:21PM|#
I'll say that Kerry was a better candidate than Gore. Closely losing the election challenging an incumbent when the country really isn't doing that great is more impressive than closely losing when you're party is in power at a time of peace and economic prosperity.
|3.15.08 @ 3:41PM|#
Anyone can write a haiku. highnumber laid down a challenge to me
over at Urkobold: he wanted a sonnet.
Whaddya think?
Attorney General destroyed his prey
And didn't let a single one avoid
The perp walk, or the elocution day.
He left the Street's brash titans paranoid.
So pitiless, so certain of his own
Propriety and his unspoiled name.
He made them twist, he hunted them for fun
The state house, just the next square in his game.
But we all know the gods can play games, too,
And think in four dimensions when they choose.
And when they formed his heart, by Jove they knew
The drive that raised him high would make him lose
All that he'd gained from rooting out the grime
That gathered under other people's nails.
When your own ship has bilges full of slime,
Don't put to sea with alabaster sails.
|3.15.08 @ 3:46PM|#
joe -
Not bad, Shakespeare is not worried by the competition, but not bad
at all.
My mother was also frightened at a medieval festival while carrying
me. Hence, no fucking sonnets.
|3.15.08 @ 3:47PM|#
CNN just now: "A group of black pastors plans to denounce Barack
Obama for denouncing Reverend Wright."
Ohnoes! Please don't throw him in the briar patch!
|3.15.08 @ 5:00PM|#
A group of black pastors plans to denounce Barack Obama for denouncing Reverend Wright."
If thats true this could be Sistah Souljah again.
alan|3.15.08 @ 5:21PM|#
I am assuming that this is all from the Clinton campaign or
it's shadow supporters. It seems to me if the McCain folks had
this, they'd hold onto it until after the Democratic convention.
Never over estimate the voters attention spans. This will all be
water under the bridge by November.
I have always wondered who slipped the mentalhealth records of
General Powell's wife to the press in 1995 when it looked like
there was a chance he would run for the presidency. Clinton's camp?
Doles, or
someone else who was running that year.
BTW, this may be something you never hear anyone say, but put all
political matters to the side, I like John Kerry. He
appeals to my sense of blue blood propriety.
Click \'n\' Learn|3.15.08 @ 5:23PM|#
Barack Obama is not a former member of TheWeatherman... at least
as far as I know. He could have been, but I'm not sure.
However, is does have some association with a former leader of that
group. That leader bombed some
buildings and is a self-admitted terrorist.
alan|3.15.08 @ 5:26PM|#
Cesar, you always
so down on Barack's chances.
Why harsh my mellow?
He is just being realistic. Take the Obama support with the youth
vote in current polls and slice that baby in half and you will get
a better idea of his standing. The youth don't vote, and the
seniors who are very positive towards McCain will give him the
election. While we Xers and Boomers in the middle will look
perplexed and ask, 'how the hell did that happen? The polls had
Obama up by 10 points just the day before the election?'
|3.15.08 @ 5:34PM|#
Lonewhacko,
Do you really believe that anybody with multiple funcutioning
neurons gives a shit about that non-story? If that is the best that
his detractors can come up with, get used to the term President
Obama.
Sheesh!
|3.15.08 @ 5:38PM|#
Ok, "The Weathermen" were active in the late 60s. Obama was in elementary school at the time. Either hes the worlds youngest terrorist or this is a really sorry attempt to inject the 60s into a campaign where the target of the attack WAS A CHILD at the time.
|3.15.08 @ 5:38PM|#
The youth don't vote, and the seniors who are very positive
towards McCain will give him the election.
The youth have been voting in the primaries. They don't
like the war, and I will make the bold(?) prediction that we will
see a large uptick in under 30 voting this November.
|3.15.08 @ 5:44PM|#
John Kerry came closer to unseating an incumbent wartime
president than anyone in American history. He covered the spread,
and that's not too bad.
In other words, he did better than Thomas Dewey in 1944. That's a
pretty small sample size, isn't it?
The only other elections taking place during foreign wars were 1952
and 1968, and the incumbent wasn't running in either of those.
|3.15.08 @ 5:47PM|#
Oh yeah, I guess 1972 counts as well. So he outperformed Dewey and McGovern. Yay for him.
|3.15.08 @ 6:01PM|#
McClellan wasn't during a foreign war.
I don't know about the other guy, when did he run?
|3.15.08 @ 6:04PM|#
I don't know about the other guy, when did he run?
DeWitt Clinton of New York (perhaps a relative of Bill?) ran as a
Federalist against Madison during the War of 1812. Joe just said
"war" not "foreign wars" though both are rare during Presidential
elections.
Scooby|3.15.08 @ 6:24PM|#
John Kerry came closer to unseating an incumbent wartime
president than anyone in American history.
I don't know that there are enough data points for a valid
comparison. There have been only 3 incumbent wartime presidents up
for re-election during real wars: FDR in 1944, Lincoln in 1864,
Madison in 1812. If you count Vietnam, Johnson was 1 for 2
(forfeiting in 1968), and Nixon got a gimme in 1972.
Did Bush's handling of the war gain him any votes in 2004, or did
it merely not lose him enough votes?
Click, Read, and Think|3.15.08 @ 6:25PM|#
If you'd clicked the earlier link, you'd
find that that links to
this, which discusses recent events, not 1972:
...we are talking about [BHO's buddy from TheWeathermen]
hosting a fundraiser for Barack Obama and actively working with him
to secure Barack's first electoral victory in Illinois. But wait,
there is more. Barack and [TheWeatherman] also served on the board
of the Woods Fund. And they worked together to give money to some
other folks, including a group with ties to the PLO.
alan|3.15.08 @ 7:33PM|#
The youth have been voting in the primaries. They don't like
the war, and I will make the bold(?) prediction that we will see a
large uptick in under 30 voting this November.
Yep, optimistically, that will give him around fifty percent of the
total who say they will vote for him actually coming out on
election day.
|3.15.08 @ 7:46PM|#
Alan, Let us not forget there are white men in their 50s considering casting a ballot for him, rathet than John (campaign finance reform/100 years in Iraq) McCain.
|3.15.08 @ 7:51PM|#
It would be supremely ironic if Barack Obama becomes the first Democrat to win a majority (or even plurality) of the white male vote since LBJ.
Fluffy|3.15.08 @ 8:39PM|#
If serving on the same board as someone who has committed
nefarious deeds disqualifies you from office, we've got a problem,
because the absolutely discredited rogue Colin Powell is a
ubiquitous figure on corporate and nonprofits boards
nationwide.
When everyone who ever served on any board with Colin Powell takes
their lumps, let me know.
|3.15.08 @ 8:56PM|#
Bill Ayers made me think of this guy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh
Their backgrounds before becoming domestic terrorists clould not
have been more different. Also their "careers" couldn't have ended
much differently.
|3.15.08 @ 9:15PM|#
If serving on the same board as someone who has committed
nefarious deeds disqualifies you from office, we've got a
problem
Doesn't sound like much of a problem. McCain has a war criminal in
the position of honorary co-chair. I haven't heard any complaints
yet.
TallDave|3.15.08 @ 9:27PM|#
"I must now dedicate some time to regain the trust of my
family." - disgraced New York Gov. Eliot Spitzer, March
10.
What about the poor, innocent hookers who are now tragically
unemployed?
Won't someone please think of the hookers??
TallDave|3.15.08 @ 9:29PM|#
Art,
And only one got to hang out with a Presidential candidate.
Just goes to show: if you're going to be a terrorist, be a
left-wing terrorist. Hey, you could be on college dorm walls for
decades!
alan|3.15.08 @ 9:29PM|#
The way I really should put it is this -- if Obama has a winning
strategy, he should not count on the youth vote. People forget how
dysfunctional the 18 to 22 or so age group is -- they really will
forget trivial things like registering to vote, the date of the
vote, the correct place to vote in their district and even to send
in their ballot through the mail in states that have that.
Few of us remember those as our stupid years because we were too
stupid then to know how stupid we were. Apologies to anyone reading
this in that age group but you will forget my remarks in a few
minutes when you start thinking about that person who makes you
horny and with whom you are obsessed all over again for the one
hundredth time today.
One error that could easily slip past him is forgetting to defend
Social Security and Medicare. Being the Democratic nominee he will
assume those issues are his and the elderly will see it that way.
Republicans are good at running stealth campaigns in retirement
communities, VFW halls, and other stomping grounds of blue haired
set that are arcane to us and fly under the democratic machine
radar as well. The Republicans will tell them that the Democrats
have wild schemes to transfer the SS 'trustfund' to illegal
immagrants while McCain will be frugal with the
their hard earned savings. Crazy stuff, but it works.
alan|3.15.08 @ 9:35PM|#
bleh,
grants to any one named Imma is illegal.
Grammar police, I'll just turn myself in in the morning.
Ali|3.15.08 @ 9:49PM|#
This whole bail out of Bear Sterns is pretty stupid and unfair. Any takes on this?
|3.15.08 @ 10:22PM|#
i have a take on that. i think it's stupid and unfair. wsj had a nice editorial today about it.
Ali|3.15.08 @ 10:34PM|#
edna, my small (hypothetical) businness has some problems, shouldn't the fed then bail me out? I mean, come one, I have 2 (hypothetical) employees who are going to loose their jobs as a consequence of my poor decision making. No fairness in the world?
|3.15.08 @ 10:46PM|#
I looked at Kissinger's quote page on Wiki, and all I can say is, "if it's accurate, yikes."
|3.15.08 @ 11:06PM|#
No fairness in the world?
i'm trying to teach my seven-year-old how to play baseball. he's
having a lot of trouble with the catching. his problem boils down
to not getting the concept that the ball is going to go where it's
going to go and he'd better go where it's gonna be. it's not going
to veer toward him, he has to observe its path and act accordingly;
it's already on its way. that's the part he's not getting.
Ali|3.15.08 @ 11:13PM|#
edna- I could see multiple applications of that lesson in discussions you and I regularly have. The thing is, the ball obeys "fair" and predictable laws of nature.
Ali|3.15.08 @ 11:18PM|#
In other words, if the ball takes up its own set of physical laws, totally disregards "natural" physical laws, I see no way that your 7-year old will ever be able to deal with the ball in any rational way.
|3.16.08 @ 12:26AM|#
the point is, once launched, its path is set, he cannot affect it unless he goes to where the ball's path is going to take it. and then (and only then) he has a lot of choices. instead, he complains that the ball was too high or too low of too far to the left... it's supposed to go here not there.
|3.16.08 @ 12:43AM|#
The difference is, of course, that at least in theory we govern
ourselves. So in your analogy we can alter the ball's path by our
choices.
But if we can't influence the actions of our govt, this site is
pretty pointless, no? Wouldn't it amount to just so much
bitching?
|3.16.08 @ 1:12AM|#
edna wrote:"four years in a concentration camp didn't make primo
levi say stupid things."
20th century American racists didn't wear snappy uniforms to
distinguish them from their neighbors, nor were they beaten in war,
nor were the movement leaders prosecuted and executed.
Primo Levi could be pretty secure in knowing the people in power
weren't Nazis.
If Primo were around today, and Jews were being imprisoned to the
same proportion that blacks are, he might well have felt
differently.
|3.16.08 @ 1:15AM|#
wacko:" Barack and [TheWeatherman] also served on the board of
the Woods Fund."
So who else was on the board?
We must expunge these terrorist buddies from public life.
Fritz|3.16.08 @ 2:03AM|#
Given the fact that the government's doings have by and large
the consent, either explicit or implied, of a majority of the
populace, it would make sense, in context, to condemn it for the
shitty hand its government has dealt most blacks in the country.
After all, the black man in To Kill A Mockingbird was wrongfully
convicted of rape by a jury of citizens from the county, and the
government that put him away was enabled not just by the people of
the county but by the people of the state, and of the nation, who
were either to racist or indifferent to effect a change (or,
simply, enforce the 14th Amendment). Chalking it all up to the
abstract entity of "the government" while exonerating the American
public would seem unreasonable, no?
But I digress. Why are people going apeshit over the rhetoric of a
preacher? He's not a part of the Obama campaign, and his entire job
is emotionalism and hyperbole; it seems inappropriate to treat him
with that much intellectual rigor.
Though maybe, in the first paragraph, I did just that.
|3.16.08 @ 8:26AM|#
Primo Levi could be pretty secure in knowing the people in
power weren't Nazis.
ummmm, they were. that's why he was in auschwitz.
If Primo were around today, and Jews were being imprisoned to
the same proportion that blacks are, he might well have felt
differently.
ummmm, it was like 100%.
Here, have some kool-aid. oh, had it already?
Fluffy|3.16.08 @ 9:32AM|#
Edna, I think the comparison is being made to Levi's writing after he was out of Auschwitz.
Fluffy|3.16.08 @ 9:39AM|#
Art, earlier in the primary season I frequently pointed out the
crazy people on Giuliani's set of foreign policy advisors, because
I hoped people would consider how that group would crazify the
foreign policy of a Giuliani administration.
There's no need to do that with Kissinger and McCain because I
think everybody already knows that McCain is crazy.
Kissinger can't sell any of his crazy to McCain because McCain's
crazy bin is already full.
|3.16.08 @ 10:09AM|#
Chris Potter,
Where did you get "foreign?" As if the Civil War wasn't
"wartime?"
There have been five wartime incumbents - FDR, Wilson, Lincoln,
Nixon, and Madison - who ran for re-election. (Six, if you count
LBJ in 1964, which is borderline). All five (six) won, and they all
won by bigger margins than Bush in 2004.
Episiarch|3.16.08 @ 10:21AM|#
I would appreciate it if we could get back to talking about Spitzer. I need...more. Hold on, I have to snort something.
|3.16.08 @ 10:26AM|#
But after going through all this, it seems that to hold politicians to a higher moral standard than, say, your next door neighbor Rick is to invite disappointment. Or in the Spitzer case, for instance, delicious revelations. I don't know. At different times McCain, Obama and Clinton have all disappointed me pretty badly.
Episiarch|3.16.08 @ 10:31AM|#
Yes, who could have known that placing any trust whatsoever in people who go through the unmitigated shit that one has to go through for political office, might find that trust misplaced. Who, I ask?
|3.16.08 @ 10:42AM|#
Yes, who could have known that placing any trust whatsoever
in people who go through the unmitigated shit that one has to go
through for political office, might find that trust misplaced. Who,
I ask?
The people on Ron Paul threads?
|3.16.08 @ 10:53AM|#
Edna, I think the comparison is being made to Levi's writing
after he was out of Auschwitz.
even worse, then. the good reverend is living and speaking in the
21st century u.s. at the time of his "god damn america" screeds, he
was rich, well-connected, and had an upper-class congregation. i
don't think he was in much danger of a lynch mob.
|3.16.08 @ 10:55AM|#
joe,
A civil war is a far different creature from a foreign war. And I'm
not sure where you're getting Wilson from, as we weren't at war in
either 1912 or 1916. Also, the War of 1812 had barely begun at the
time of Madison's reelection.
In any case, we've had 54 presidential elections; I don't think a
sample of even five is very convincing.
|3.16.08 @ 10:59AM|#
Yeah, we were at peace in 1916. Wilson even ran on a slogan that said "he kept us out of war".
|3.16.08 @ 11:37AM|#
At different times McCain, Obama and Clinton have all
disappointed me pretty badly.
If a politician, even one you fervently support, hasn't
disappointed you on occasion, your thinking abilities are on par
with followers of
this guy. Fanboys are pathetic.
Scooby|3.16.08 @ 11:53AM|#
Maybe we should add in a couple of data-points (I alluded to one
in my previous post). LBJ in 1968 declined to run for re-election
because it was a lost cause. Likewise, Polk declined to run for
reelection immediately after the Mexican American War (another
somewhat unpopular war of questionable justification, although
unlike Vietnam and Iraq, it was actually declared by
Congress).
I don't see why these two examples should be excluded from the
analysis just because they were so unpopular that they couldn't get
nominated for a second term, even if they "voluntarily" declined to
seek the nomination.
|3.16.08 @ 11:55AM|#
Polk declined mostly because he was in agony from stomach cancer. It had little to do with politics. He could've won re-election, he was an extremely successful President in what he set out to do.
|3.16.08 @ 11:58AM|#
I do not give a rat's ass about what a candidates priest or
preacher, mullah or shaman, rails about. Those that are so worried
about the minister at Obama's church, likely had no problem with
this photo op. The dogma of any religion or sect is replete
with nonsense and outright whackery. Even yours.
Some of the clergy are
firebrands, some are markedly
less so.
Perspective folks. Calling on hellfire to exhort the faithful is
not exactly a new tactic in the annals of soul saving.
Fluffy|3.16.08 @ 12:18PM|#
even worse, then. the good reverend is living and speaking
in the 21st century u.s. at the time of his "god damn america"
screeds, he was rich, well-connected, and had an upper-class
congregation. i don't think he was in much danger of a lynch
mob.
Well, it sucks that I have to stand up for the guy who was arguing
against me, but that's what that poster was saying, edna. Primo
Levi was offered as an example of the opposite reaction to
Wright's.
But honestly, it doesn't really matter if Wright's congregation was
wealthy or not. The Founding Fathers were mostly wealthy men with
comfortable lifestyles relative to the time. But when they thought
they were treated unjustly they renounced the king and killed his
servants until they gave up trying to enforce the king's writ. Did
any of them ever damn the king? I have to think it's quite
likely.
BakedPenguin|3.16.08 @ 12:25PM|#
If a politician, even one you fervently support, hasn't disappointed you on occasion...
I'm still waiting for the occasion when a politician in office
'appoints' me.
|3.16.08 @ 12:39PM|#
A civil war is a far different creature from a foreign
war.
In some ways, it is. In the sense of causing the public to rally
'round the flag, and the president gaining the boost in
near-reverential respect as the "Commander in Chief."
And while 5 is a fairly small sample size, a 100% outcome within
that sample is still highly suggestive.
edna,
even worse, then. the good reverend is living and speaking in
the 21st century u.s. at the time of his "god damn america"
screeds, he was rich, well-connected, and had an upper-class
congregation. i don't think he was in much danger of a lynch
mob. So war Primo Levi after the war. And before the war, as
opposed to Wright.
|3.16.08 @ 12:40PM|#
Not Wilson, right.
But FDR counts twice - 1940 and 1944. We were escorting ships and
girding for the war in 1940.
|3.16.08 @ 12:42PM|#
Joe, FDR said he wasn't going to "send us into any foreign wars" when he campaigned in 1940. He didn't exactly run on a war platform.
|3.16.08 @ 12:58PM|#
He was also, very publically, arming up. Lend-lease was in
effect.
It is a question of his platform - as we saw in 2004, the
incumbency benefit doesn't accrue based on the public's support for
the President's platform - but to seeing him as the Commander in
Chief during scary times, and not wanting to be seen "undermining"
that president and "sending a message" to the scary bad guys.
|3.16.08 @ 12:59PM|#
Er, it "ISN'T" a question of his platform. Nixon's platform in 1972 was "I'm ending the war."
|3.16.08 @ 1:04PM|#
Cesar | March 16, 2008, 10:59am | #
Yeah, we were at peace in 1916. Wilson even ran on a slogan that
said "he kept us out of war".
On the other hand, you might want to add McKinley. We were fighting
a pretty major war in the Philippines in 1900 which has gotten
mostly written out of the history books.
alan|3.16.08 @ 1:20PM|#
Cesar | March 16, 2008, 10:59am | #
Yeah, we were at peace in 1916. Wilson even ran on a slogan that
said "he kept us out of war".
On the other hand, you might want to add McKinley. We were fighting
a pretty major war in the Philippines in 1900 which has gotten
mostly written out of the history books.
Are you guys still arguing over that miniscule point? Still?
Howley, how about another take on feminist individualism, or
Moynihan, a dispatch from the middle east, anything but this comma
inducing argument. Anyone want to count angels on the head of a
pin? Anything.
alan|3.16.08 @ 1:21PM|#
see, you induced commas from me, way to go, jerks. Now off to slip into a coma.
VM|3.16.08 @ 1:27PM|#
alan, you're totally wrong.
it is a diminutive point. Wee, if you will. Maybe petite but
certainly not "miniscule".
Mein gott. how could you make such a basic error? You know, for a
poster named alan...
alan|3.16.08 @ 1:40PM|#
I simply meant that the argument had a limited magnitude of interest, so there for it was a miniscule argument.
alan|3.16.08 @ 1:44PM|#
I do see the point you making, I would hope for a little flexibility in syntactical usage on a sleepy Sunday afternoon.
alan|3.16.08 @ 1:47PM|#
Pat, I would like to buy an 'are'.
You mean an 'r'?
Nope, pretty sure I could use an 'are' there.
|3.16.08 @ 2:13PM|#
Did any of them ever damn the king? I have to think it's
quite likely.
of course they did. and if a protoge decided to run for house of
commons in england, it would be a legitimate question for english
voters to consider.
my own pov: who cares? it's voices-from-the-sky nonsense. but
anything that gets us closer to split, gridlocked government,
consumed with internal bickering, is a.o.k. with me.
|3.16.08 @ 2:30PM|#
If a politician, even one you fervently support, hasn't
disappointed you on occasion...
I'm still waiting for the occasion when a politician in office
'appoints' me.
Baked wins the thread!
|3.16.08 @ 4:04PM|#
He was also, very publically, arming up. Lend-lease was in
effect.
Well if all we had to be doing was "arming up" to make one a
wartime president, then the defeat of incumbents Ford and Carter
during the Cold War, to name just a couple, need to be added in as
well.
As for the topicality police complaining about this argument, I
apologize for disrupting the lively discussion of important matters
that was going on previously. [/sarcasm]
|3.16.08 @ 4:07PM|#
In the matter of 1900, the Phillippines was US territory at the time, so that wasn't a foreign war either.
Click \'n\' Learn|3.16.08 @ 4:37PM|#
In other news, our friends in the MexicanGovernment are making it harder and harder to tell the difference between useful idiots and outright traitors.
alan|3.16.08 @ 5:01PM|#
As for the topicality police complaining about this
argument
Sarcasm or not, you should apologize.
The 'my history buff(oonary)is better than your history
buff(oonary' has been a real winner and crowd pleaser since almost
the very beginning of the internet when the first message ever to
be sent over ARPANET occurred at 10:30 PM on October 29, 1969. Only
a few minutes after that the scientist doing the testing began to
argue about who was the true originator of the calculus, Newton or
Leibniz. After which there was a diversion into another discussion
concerning Buffalo Bill's accuracy with a hand revolver versus his
well known steady shot with a Winchester rifle. The contentiousness
of the second debate caused the entire system to collapse, and it
was well over a year before it could be put in operation
again.
You see, history kills and its discussion destroys.
|3.16.08 @ 5:08PM|#
Well if all we had to be doing was "arming up" to make one a
wartime president, then the defeat of incumbents Ford and Carter
during the Cold War, to name just a couple, need to be added in as
well.
Wow. Yes, Chris, 1940 was exactly like 1976.
I've got a good biography of George Marshall I can recommend if you
want to expand your understanding of the politics of that
era.
In the matter of 1900, the Phillippines was US territory at the
time, so that wasn't a foreign war either. So? I don't think
hiding behind the word "foreign war" is going to save you here.
|3.16.08 @ 5:13PM|#
Fluffy, neither Hagee nor Robertson are McCain's spiritual
mentors of 20 years. McCain hasn't (AFAIK) donated five-figure sums
to their churches. McCain hasn't (again AFAIK) written about how
influential they were in his beliefs. In fact, McCain has said
harsh things about Robertson. The relationships are not at all
comparable to that of Obama & Wright.
Joe, I suppose you're one of those "only whites can be racist"
types, but most libertarians want a level playing field for all
races. We want to get along with people regardless of their race,
and dislike singling out people's race as a means to attack them.
Giving a "lifetime achievement award" to Farrakhan, who believes
that the white race
was the creation of a mad black scientist, would be considered
pretty racist by most people.
I'll grant you every injustice ever done to American blacks, but it
still doesn't justify "allegiance to Africa," "avoiding
Middleclassness," a "black value system," "the US created AIDS to
kill blacks," and all the other Black Liberation Theology and
conspiracy crap that Wright spews. It's wrong, misguided, divisive,
and doesn't help the people he says he wants to help. If this is
common in African-American churches, that's a tragedy, not an
excuse for Wright and Obama.
alan|3.16.08 @ 5:15PM|#
To put it in perspective, you have been arguing on the validity of a point Joe made on John Kerry's presidential race in 2004 for the past two days.
|3.16.08 @ 5:16PM|#
. Yes, Chris, 1940 was exactly like 1976.
Indeed, it is preposterous to compare elections from different eras
with completely different types of wars and military buildups going
on.
Face it, the reasons John Kerry lost had very little to do with a
"don't change horses in the middle of the stream" attitude among
the American public. The guy was Bush Lite with an extra helping of
Botox and waffles.
|3.16.08 @ 5:20PM|#
I also wonder if the other candidates who lost to incumbent wartime presidents were leading in national polls the week before the election before blowing it. Or whether they were leading in the polls at all during the campaign. I really doubt either was the case in 1972 or 1944, and the others occurred before modern methods of polling developed, so we'll never know.
|3.16.08 @ 5:26PM|#
alan,
Well, I haven't only been doing that -- it's been filler
between my main weekend activities. Like...well, I did laundry this
morning...
Ali|3.16.08 @ 5:44PM|#
edna- are you missing a "shift" key on your keyboard? this thing you do is rubbing on me. i like the minimalism associated with it.
|3.16.08 @ 5:48PM|#
Papaya-
Do you honestly believe Obama shares the views of his pastor? Do
you think he really agrees with what his pastor said in those
quotes? Do you think Obama hates white people?
|3.16.08 @ 6:32PM|#
Do you think Obama hates white people?
Considering that his mother is a member of the set, I consider it
extremely unlikely. Whether this will have any traction with the
great unwashed, otherwise known as the electorate, remains to be
seen. If anybody has no disagreements with their clergy about
spiritual, cultural or political subjects, speak up. Even when I
was a papist (the shame of it all!), I thought the pope was full of
it on a number of issues.
|3.16.08 @ 6:34PM|#
J sub D-
Thats what I was aiming at. Obama obviously doesn't hate white
people, he was raised by them.
|3.16.08 @ 6:35PM|#
ali, no, i lost my pinkie fingers in an accident. it involved c batteries and a wolverine. don't ask.
|3.16.08 @ 6:55PM|#
Thats what I was aiming at. Obama obviously doesn't hate
white people, he was raised by them.
Cesar, IIRC, you are in the same boat, ethnically speaking. I'll
never understand that so many people in 21st century America just
don't fuckin' get it. When the greatest golfer in history, declared
himself to be "cablanasian" I cheered him. He was politely saying
"fuck you" to all those who wanted to define him racially, ignoring
his mother. That it upset some folks, spoke loudly and poorly about
those folks, not Tiger Woods.
|3.16.08 @ 6:56PM|#
ali, no, i lost my pinkie fingers in an accident. it
involved c batteries and a wolverine. don't ask.
Tease!
Ali|3.16.08 @ 6:57PM|#
edna-
So you're not a minimalist?
It's hard not to ask --a wolverine (as in the animal?) and
batteries? Both pinkies?
|3.16.08 @ 7:18PM|#
I see only one post on the inept piece supporting government
regulaiton of internet access pricing, also known as "net
neutrality." In case you haven't read it, I'll summarize: because
the government has screwed up two services already (phone &
cable), we need them to interfere in the pricing of internet
services, too.
How many times, and how many flavors, of this argument have you
heard: because government regulation has fucked up XXX, we need
more government regulation to unfuck XXX. Did any of them get
better?
The current phase of technology has pushed the market toward land
lines, where there are two government "supervised" monopolies.
They're abusing their position (surprise!), making customers
unhappy. What do unhappy customers do?
...I mean, besides beg their congresscritters to "save" them. They
create business opportunity, that's what! I'm uploading these
comments through Alltel wireless; I switched to them after getting
irked with my phone co. It ain't a T1 line, but it ain't bad.
More regulation only creates rent seekers, who'll then lobby for
more regulation. Stop it! The market is endlessly creative; either
wait for it or seize the opportunity and make a mint by fixing
it.
|3.16.08 @ 7:25PM|#
this is one of the reasons i'm so pro-biotech: i have the hope that new ones can eventually be grown for me, then grafted back on. those shift keys... so near and yet so far...
alan|3.16.08 @ 8:01PM|#
It means nothing towards how I will vote in November, if I vote,
but the pastor matter does intrigue me.
The first question in my mind, would you expose your two daughters
to someone like Jeremiah Wright Jr.? I don't mean the rhetoric, but
the hate spitting vitriol, the screaming, the public display of
clownish excess and idiocy. I don't care if you are up on the
pulpit, doing the Jesus number, that is still not the sort of scene
I would want to be the typical Sunday afternoon of my children (if
I had kids).
You can make the same points about the inequalities of American
life, the corrupt nature of American elites, the negative roll our
war machine plays in the world without sounding fucking insane.
Those matters need sobriety and sanity and showmen trying to raise
the BAHing pitch of their sheep distract from the seriousness of
our present dilemma.
Nephilium|3.16.08 @ 8:11PM|#
piperTom:
Back up there. The main point of Net Neutrality is if you say you
are selling internet access, that's what you sell, not some service
that blocks ports, and sends invalid packets out. It's also saying
you can't double dip on service (as an example, charging Google a
certain cost to make sure that your subscribers get to them).
Nephilium
|3.16.08 @ 9:40PM|#
Papaya SF,
Stop arguing with the liberal in your head, and calling him "joe."
Here's what I had to say:
joe | March 14, 2008, 5:16pm | #
Here's how Obama should handle the Wright issue:
"Reverend Wright is from a previous generation. The same generation
as Senator Clinton. And Senator McCain. And President Bush." blah
blah blah how bad politics were in Teh Sixties. "I want to move
this country beyond those politics, that divide us, that set us
against each other, that define our fellow Americans as the
enemy."
Did you ever even bother to read anything I wrote, or did you "just
know" my position without having to?
|3.16.08 @ 9:47PM|#
alan,
I don't mean the rhetoric, but the hate spitting vitriol, the
screaming, the public display of clownish excess and
idiocy.
You have seen three or four five-second clips edited together into
a "greatest hits" by people committed to making him look as
outrageous as possible.
I really don't think it's fair to render a judgement about what
kind of person, or even what kind of preacher, he is based on
that.
I mean, seeing a pastor use the N-word from the pulpit ON
CHRISTMAS! rubs me the wrong way, too, but when you're aware that
someone is trying to manipulate you through the media, it's worth
the effort to keep an open mind.
Besides, he's not an elected official. He's not a political leader.
He's a preacher, trying to awaken people's souls to the injustice
around them. He's allowed to call down fire and brimstone.
Lefty|3.16.08 @ 11:38PM|#
This vid of Soft Machine sucked there are many more other there.
Meanwhile, where the fuck is Keith Emerson?
And no it shouldn't be politics and punk. Too left wing; they own
it. Politics and prog has a veneer of libertarianism in it. Punk
gravitates to infantile disorders
highnumber|3.17.08 @ 10:07AM|#
There's plenty of pro-individualist punk rock.
I'm not sure of Bad Religion's political affiliations (if any), but
their lyrics tend to promote a humanism and individualism.
To my ears, at least.
Neu Mejican|3.17.08 @ 11:10AM|#
Politics and prog has a veneer of libertarianism in it. Punk
gravitates to infantile disorders
Translation: politics and prog has a veneer of libertarianims in
it...and so would Punk?
;)
alan|3.17.08 @ 12:33PM|#
Too left wing; they own it.
To me it seems the punk rockers veered left ward to please the
critics, and many like the Ramones and and Sex Pistols came across
as right-populist, and so did the early Clash that produced 'White
Riot.' Going left wing was a sell out to music journalist.
Neu Mejican|3.17.08 @ 2:01PM|#
Regarding Politics and Punk.
The main advantage is the fact that you can have a two-level
super-meta-argument about what constitutes Real Punk crossed with
what constitutes Real Libertarianism...
Alan,
Joey Ramone is pretty left-wing as were the Clash.
Don't confuse "anti-authority" with politically "right-wing."
alan|3.17.08 @ 3:36PM|#
The Ramones were having too much fun to be lefty shills.
Here for you consideration:
Fourth rule is: Eat kosher salamis.
There, Joey is saying to keep sacred traditions set thousands of
years, sounds more like Russell Kirk than anything the smellier
than thou left is saying.
And, on a more serious note, as I pointed out, the music of the
early Clash:
White riot - I wanna riot
White riot - a riot of my own
White riot - I wanna riot
White riot - a riot of my own
Black people gotta lot a problems
But they dont mind throwing a brick
White people go to school
Where they teach you how to be thick
Strummer's leftism was just a cynical veneer. He knew how to pull
lefty strings because they tend to be gullible and stupid. He was
the Morris Dees of rock music.
highnumber|3.17.08 @ 3:59PM|#
Naked Raygun was another punk band that seemed pro-individual.
Check the lyrics from Understand.
"Never Follow"
Follow me
I'll take you there
You needn't think
You needn't care
On the way
We'll find some others
Baptize with lies
And make them brothers
No I will never follow
I will never follow
Your truth diseased and hollow
No I will never follow
Forget your thoughts
Forget your will
Tell that voice inside
To just keep still
If it gets too be too much
Just turn your eyes away
The free individual
Is from a bygone day
No I will never follow
I will never follow
Your truth diseased and hollow
No I will never follow
I'll be your destroyer
Your world's great annoyer
I'll be your destroyer
No worn propaganda for me
Follow me
I'll take you there
You needn't think
You needn't care
We'll all go gentle
Into that good night
There'll be no more raging
Against the dying of the light
No I will never follow
I will never follow
Your truth diseased and hollow
No I will never follow
I'll be your destroyer
Your world's great annoyer
I'll be your destroyer
No guns, knives, nor lawyers
No I will never follow
I will never follow
You can't take my will away
My dreams will never say die
"Too Much of You" is a good one, too.
There's a lot of punk that is mostly apolitical, but
pro-individual. Compare that with prog, which is mostly just
anti-you-getting-laid.
Neu Mejican|3.17.08 @ 6:07PM|#
alan,
Wow.
That is some serious work you've put into this topic.
Joey Ramone campaigned for Jerry Brown.
Those Clash lyrics don't seem to hold any right-wing message to
me...And, although I think a better case can be made for a leftward
than a right-ward lean in their lyrics, they were more
anti-authoritarian than anything else. Anti-Thatcherism,
anti-Soviet/Maoist, anti-anyone-abusing power.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clash#Politics
And then there is the motivation behind that Sandinista!
album...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandinista%21
Was it supportive or anti-Sandinista?
Your view,however, is not without precedent
http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/dossier/id1377/pg1/index.html
alan|3.17.08 @ 7:59PM|#
alan,
Wow.
That is some serious work you've put into this topic.
Thanks, I try to put my best effort to the stuff that really
matters like popular music and the garbled ideas musicians set to
beats.
|3.18.08 @ 12:55AM|#
Uh.. you know that Robert Wyatt, the drummer of Soft Machine, is a Communist Party member. I don't know the rest of the band, although I know that the bassist is also in the Radical Left music scene. I still like Robert Wyatt and Soft Machine, but just a point...
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