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Virginia Cop Killed in Drug Raid; Suspect Says He Was Defending His Home
Officer Jarrod Shivers was shot and killed while executing a search warrant in Cheseapeake, Virginia Thursday night.
The suspect had no criminal record (at least in the state of Virginia). And he says in an interview from jail he had no idea the undercover cops breaking into his home were police. The suspect, 28-year-old Ryan David Frederick, also says a burglar had broken into his home earlier this week.
Though the raid was apparently part of a drug investigation, police aren't saying what if any drugs were found. They won't even confirm that police had the correct address. But they have arrested Frederick and charged him with first-degree murder.
More to come, I'm sure.
|1.19.08 @ 5:02PM|#
Thanks, Radley. Too much of this gets forgotten about, so we're counting on you.
Andrew Jackson|1.19.08 @ 5:03PM|#
This is an unfortunate occurance, but it appears to be an accident. If the police did not identify themselves, in addition to this being the wrong house, I cannot imagine one would hold that man responsible. People get freaked out judicial activism, but I am more worried about militarization of law enforcement.
|1.19.08 @ 5:07PM|#
Thanks Radley. It's interesting that the article takes the whole attitude that "these unfortunate events are on the rise" without at all mentioning that someone is actually making the decision to put both cops and potential innocents in grave danger when they do this shit. No one questions the wisdom of no-knock and forced-entry raids. People seem to have internalized the notion that it's okay for cops to forcibly enter houses in plain clothes in the dark based on the thinnest of pretexts. I will be interested to hear more info on this case as is filters in.
Elemenope|1.19.08 @ 5:09PM|#
some dude --
In many states, First-degree murder encompasses more than
premeditated murder.
It often also includes murder undertaken during the commission of
another felony (such as robbery-murder or rape-murder), even if the
killing itself was unintentional or of the moment. It can also
include murders of certain classes of public official (police,
fire, rescue) if the murderer had reason to believe that the victim
was a member of one of those groups (i.e. an announcement, badge,
or uniform in view).
|1.19.08 @ 5:12PM|#
Perhaps the police were monitoring his Google searches and e-mail via the domestic wiretapping program and discovered this anti-American activity going on close by. We should be proud of our newfound surveillance capabilities - the collateral damage suffered in these raids are a small price to pay for a compliant citizenry.
|1.19.08 @ 5:12PM|#
"If the police did not identify themselves, in addition to this
being the wrong house, I cannot imagine one would hold that
man responsible."
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
LarryA|1.19.08 @ 5:14PM|#
I cannot imagine one would hold that man
responsible.
"One" isn't. The cops and prosecutor are.
"Unfortunately, these types of events are increasing instead of
decreasing. And it's a very sad trend."
Agreed, but probably not the way he meant it.
I wonder why the gun control folks, who jump on every other kind of
shooting, aren't touting this as a reason to disarm people?
|1.19.08 @ 5:19PM|#
I wonder why the gun control folks, who jump on every other
kind of shooting, aren't touting this as a reason to disarm
people?
I would say that a lot of the gun-control crowd receives its
intellectual fuel from the Left, who have an anti-authoritarian
streak in them.
javier|1.19.08 @ 5:31PM|#
He should get a metal and a ticker tape parade.
if you mean the guy that is sitting in jail now, yes. It is our
right to shoot anybody that kicks down our doors. do you think he
tried ringing the doorbell and saying 'police department. I have a
warrant to search the premise'. of course not, they think they in
fallujah or some shit.
javier|1.19.08 @ 5:33PM|#
I still can't get over it. PLAIN CLOTHES. who the fuck serves a warrant in plain clothes?
|1.19.08 @ 5:34PM|#
He should get a metal and a ticker tape parade.
Mouth-breathing asshole!
Only someone who's a Wannabe TUFF GUY would say vile shit like
that.
The last thing anybody wants after taking a human life is to get a
bunch of pats on the back. Taking a life isn't an easy thing to do,
and the glib manner you treat it with shows you're a superficial
little fucker.
|1.19.08 @ 5:37PM|#
I'm sure, Ayn_Randian, you would have been cool with it had it been the other way around. The homeowner in a pool of blood over a mistaken raid. Know where you stand.
|1.19.08 @ 5:38PM|#
"I wonder why the gun control folks, who jump on every other
kind of shooting, aren't touting this as a reason to disarm
people?"
I can only speak for myself, as someone who thinks there should be
some control and regulation on firearms.
I, and lots of other folks like myself, think the confines of one's
home is sacred and inviolable space and that it's entirely
reasonable for someone to use his/her right to bear arms to fire
first when an unidentified someone kicks in your door.
I think it's fine to keep a gun at home. I'm just not into rocket
launchers, assault rifles, and gun fetishism in general. But I will
be a co-belligerent with gun enthusiasts in such cases as this.
What Randian said as well.
|1.19.08 @ 5:41PM|#
I'm sure, Ayn_Randian, you would have been cool with it had
it been the other way around. The homeowner in a pool of blood over
a mistaken raid. Know where you stand.
I'm sure you need to put down the crystal ball, Kreskin.
No sympathy for the state's hired thugs.
Oh really? I suppose that includes Servicemembers too then?
Where does the death parade end for you, Hagbard? Should all cops
be drug out on to the street and shot?
What about the legislators? The prosecutors? The judges? The
clerks? All of their secretaries?
Bill Cooke|1.19.08 @ 5:43PM|#
My email to the police.
I do feel sympathy for anyone killed, but in life you pay for your
poor decisions.
--------------------------
"Why the gentleman who was defending his house should be charged
with murder is beyond me. When police officers insist on dressing
up like ninjas and acting like terrorists these things are bound to
happen. If anyone comes busting down my door in the middle of the
night he can also expect to get shot. I'm sorry the fellow died.
But if you have to charge someone the police command should be
charged with manslaughter for their reckless disregard for human
life in setting up these absurd raids.
I hope I'm on the jury.
sic semper tyrannis"
Hagbard|1.19.08 @ 5:43PM|#
"Servicemen", dam right. The state's hired hitmen and mass murders. The legislators, prosecutors and judges all the a fair trail before we hang'm.
VikingMoose|1.19.08 @ 5:44PM|#
Ayn_Randian | January 19, 2008, 5:34pm | #
He should get a metal and a ticker tape parade.
Mouth-breathing asshole!
Only someone who's a Wannabe TUFF GUY would say vile shit like that.
The last thing anybody wants after taking a human life is to get a bunch of pats on the back. Taking a life isn't an easy thing to do, and the glib manner you treat it with shows you're a superficial little fucker.
you said it!!! well played, Sir!
|1.19.08 @ 5:45PM|#
No obscenties. I promised myself.
So...difficult...to....restrain...my...fingers...
VM|1.19.08 @ 5:48PM|#
jsub -
i got it - hay hagbard. wishing for the death of another human is
really twaddlenockish. you are a twaddlenock.
TWADDLENOCK. You scruffy-looking nerf herder. Quixelnosh.
there.
Hagbard|1.19.08 @ 5:50PM|#
Shows how superficial your commitment is basic rights when you'd let armed thugs just gun you down in your own homes. The cops (and solders) are the one's who are willingly choosing to commit the aggressive acts, why should I not be pleased when things go the other way? Come back and tell me what an ass I am when the last of your pathetic liberties have been extinguished.
|1.19.08 @ 5:51PM|#
The state's hired hitmen and mass murders.
*Bewilderment*
Um, Hagbard? Perhaps you should just man up then and stop paying
the State to hire us.
Or did you think that money came out of thin air?
So, here's what you meant to say:
"The state's Hagbard's hired hitmen
and mass murders.
The legislators, prosecutors and judges all the a fair trail
before we hang'm.
Ah, a show trial, then, given that you've already predetermined
their fate.
We need a new term for the anti-state Zealots. I mean other than
Bloviating Fuckbags; that one's already taken for O'Reilly.
VM|1.19.08 @ 5:51PM|#
thank you for all of your work on this topic, Radley. Comfort
and condolences to officer Shivers's family. Comfort and
condolences to Mr. Frederick and family.
another useless death courtesy of the drug war.
|1.19.08 @ 5:54PM|#
Hagbard -
Fuck you. Fuck you till the sun is a red giant. Eat mokey shit for
the rest of your godforsaken, cocksucking, flea bitten life. You
are no better the the pimple on a crack whores syphillitic
cunt!
We will now return you to the kinder, gentler, J sub D.
|1.19.08 @ 5:55PM|#
Come back and tell me what an ass I am when the last of your
pathetic liberties have been extinguished.
THE HIGH-PREIST OF THE CHURCH OF THE ANTI-STATE HAS SPOKEN
THUS:
"THE END TIMES ARE UPON US, AS I HAVE PREDICTED. ALL HAIL ME AND MY
AMAZING INSIGHT!
"I AM SO SPECIAL; I GET TO SEE THE END TIMES AND I PREDICTED
THEM!"
And Pilly Pecker replies:
"OHM...OH THE SWEET ESCHATON..."
Or, Hagbard, in other words, you're jumping at shad...look a black
helicopter!
|1.19.08 @ 5:55PM|#
the Left, who have an anti-authoritarian streak in
them
Funny stuff.
they think they in fallujah or some shit
Soldiers don't have the delusion of invulnerability-when-armed that
cops do, and they know this is how you get shot.
Should all cops be drug out on to the street and
shot?
That would be unfair. They can get capped in their beds like the
rest of us.
|1.19.08 @ 5:57PM|#
Ayn_Randian - I'm totally innocent. Never given them a
dime.
Oh, a societal parasite, huh fucktard? Many will mourn the cop's
death. I'll shit on your grave. Fuck you again.
|1.19.08 @ 5:57PM|#
I'm totally innocent. Never given them a dime.
Oh, good...a saint in the New Church of the Anti-State
(Reformed).
Is it because you've never been gainfully employed? Or perhaps is
it because momma ain't thrown you from the basement?
|1.19.08 @ 5:59PM|#
They can get capped in their beds like the rest of
us.
I'm curious to know how death wishes are helping any.
Do you think that the descriptor "thinks cops should be executed"
is a helpful label in today's modern political discourse?
What planet are you from?
|1.19.08 @ 6:01PM|#
I've seen maggots feeding on dogshit that I have more respect for than you, Hagbard. Your lack of basic human consideration must make your mother so proud. Oh, she disowned your worthless ass? If you aren't a case for retroactive abortion, there is none.
Hagbard|1.19.08 @ 6:02PM|#
What's your problem Rand? Dirty Harry offs the bad guys and everyone applauds. Which side are you on? Those defending themselves or those attacking them? Oh wait, you've already told us the answer to that.
|1.19.08 @ 6:02PM|#
I'm old and gainfully employed. Next guess?
I'm not giving you any more attention than you deserve, which,
coincidentally, is none at all.
Curious, though, how you justify using state services (which you
undoubtedly do) and not paying for them?
Is being a man too hard for you or something?
Although I should have guessed you were old, given that said age
group typically has a problem with constipation. Not
coincidentally, your mental constipation shows the same point of
origin as the more typical kind.
|1.19.08 @ 6:04PM|#
Hagbard, you're an ignorant lying asshole to boot. Go find a septic tank to feed in.
Episiarch|1.19.08 @ 6:04PM|#
I have a question. Of those arguing here, who has already started drinking? I'm just about to start myself.
Minion of URKOBOLD|1.19.08 @ 6:05PM|#
BZZT. HAGBARD DOESN'T REALIZE THAT AYN_RANDIAN WASN'T GUESSING.
IT IS YOU WHO IS MISTAKEN.
YOU ARE IN YOUR GRANDMA'S BASEMENT. WITH EMPTY CHEETOS BAGS ALL
AROUND.
AND YOUR UFC WWE COSTUME WRINKLED ON THE FLOOR WITH BLOOD, MUCUS,
FECAL MATTER, AND SEMEN NEARBY.
WE DO NOT WANT TO KNOW WHAT TYPE OF BATIN YOU'RE INTO, BUT IT LOOKS
EPIC.
EPI - SAME HIER. ABOUT TO START.
|1.19.08 @ 6:07PM|#
Those defending themselves or those attacking
them?
Big words for a little mind.
Maybe you should get out there and start killing police officers
and Soldiers. You know, put your tuff-guy words where your mouth
is.
Come on, man up and go prove yourself, you little coward.
Which side are you on?
How about the 'side' that says this is tragic all around and
someone dying is almost always a sad event?
The 'side' that says human life is precious, can be gone any second
and is really wasted on crap like the Drug War?
The 'side' that realizes that trying to change things doesn't
involve dancing on the graves of police officers and
Soldiers?
You know, truth...justice...and that good stuff.
|1.19.08 @ 6:09PM|#
Damn, people like that wothless lying scum just fire me up. Ha Ha, somebody with a family who loves and depends on them is dead. I'll just post in anonymity and act like I'm some sort of badass when reallly I'm a worthless cowardly cunt. Fuck him. He's not even worthy of my bile.
Elemenope|1.19.08 @ 6:13PM|#
Hagbard, you're an ignorant lying asshole to boot. Go find a
septic tank to feed in.
Not that he doesn't deserve it, but what happened to the "kinder,
gentler J sub D" we were promised?
|1.19.08 @ 6:18PM|#
>sits quietly in the shadows offering J sub D some mouthwash
and unconditional absolution...
and a pat on the back
javier|1.19.08 @ 6:18PM|#
We need a new term for the anti-state Zealots
Consistent?
I've already started drinking. I have my drug dealer's bachelors
party tonight!!!
Bill Cooke|1.19.08 @ 6:19PM|#
I think our line should be this:
1. We are sorry the fellow is dead.
2. We have concern for the poor bastard sitting in jail who
probably didn't realize this guy was a cop and thought he was a
burglar.
3. We must resolve to stop the drug war, or at least the reckless
way these raids are carried out.
Even if you think this cop was a scumbag, it is not right to gloat
about it. Express some sympathy for him and continue to work to
stop these things from happening in the future.
|1.19.08 @ 6:23PM|#
javier -
Please. I could destroy your tiny-minded little anarchism in a
second, and have done so against much smarter opponents than
you.
you're out of your league, Sonny Jim.
FWIW, you already have a Savior in your Religion: the
Anarchrist.
I have my drug dealer's bachelors party tonight
If I were less benevolent I would hope that you overdose, but I'm
not an evil little fuck like you are.
|1.19.08 @ 6:23PM|#
...but what happened to the "kinder, gentler J sub D" we
were promised?
He'll be back. I'm doing control exercises as I type. Most people
are deserving of being addressed in a polite, or at least civil,
manner. Regretfully some aren't, and I find it very difficult to
give it to them.
One of my shortcomings, no doubt.
Elemenope|1.19.08 @ 6:23PM|#
I have a question. Of those arguing here, who has already
started drinking? I'm just about to start myself.
Not I, although I once read Reason while Robo-tripping,
and it suddenly seemed much more...reasonable.
Drink!
Elemenope|1.19.08 @ 6:27PM|#
He'll be back. I'm doing control exercises as I
type.
I hear that deep nose-to-abdomen breathing cools the encephalic
cavity a good degree and a half or so. Apparently, the human brain
works much more efficiently when cooler. For me, however, it just
makes me dizzy.
Most people are deserving of being addressed in a polite, or at
least civil, manner. Regretfully some aren't, and I find it very
difficult to give it to them.
One of my shortcomings, no doubt.
Oh not at all. I generally agree, but there are occasionally
individuals that need to be called out abusively, or rather without
the false modulation of politeness to blunt the
contempt.
javier|1.19.08 @ 6:29PM|#
Please. I could destroy your tiny-minded little anarchism in
a second, and have done so against much smarter opponents than
you.
who said I was an anarchist???
If I were less benevolent I would hope that you
overdose,
I'll give it a shot but its just pot. I stay far from the hard
stuff.
|1.19.08 @ 6:31PM|#
javier,
Once upon a time I dealt drugs. Unlike you, I retained my humanity
throughout the whole experience. I'm sorry you're too mentally weak
to do that. Like many people, you lack strength, mental and
moral.
|1.19.08 @ 6:32PM|#
Kathryn Johnston.
She was the 92-yr old killed by three cops on a forged no-knock
warrant in Atlanta about a year ago. The cops then planted drugs in
her home.
I bring it up because the tone was Soooooo much different on
Reason.com back then.
http://www.reason.com/blog/show/116863.html
Its hard to have sympathy for any jack-boot in this war on the
American people.
|1.19.08 @ 6:33PM|#
You "libertarians" are such frauds it makes me
lmao.
Who's the fraudulent old bastard who lets others fight his
"Death-Unto-All-Cops" jihad?
Chickenhawk.
|1.19.08 @ 6:37PM|#
Its hard to have sympathy for any jack-boot in this war on
the American people.
Tell you what: go to the family of a police officer killed in the
Drug War and say that to their face. Then post it on YouTube.
Anything less makes you an amoral little twerp.
I find it strange that someone would wish death upon those who are,
for the most part, good people doing what they think is the right
thing.
Perhaps you can tell me this: any sympathy for fallen Soldiers in
the Iraq War?
.|1.19.08 @ 6:37PM|#
Ayn_Randian | January 19, 2008, 6:23pm | #
javier -
Please. I could destroy your tiny-minded little anarchism in a
second, and have done so against much smarter opponents than
you.
you're out of your league, Sonny Jim.
FWIW, you already have a Savior in your Religion: the
Anarchrist.
I have my drug dealer's bachelors party tonight
If I were less benevolent I would hope that you overdose, but I'm
not an evil little fuck like you are.
Well it looks like Habard doesn't win the asshole intartube tuffguy
title for this thread.
Nancy_Randian for the win!
Hagbard|1.19.08 @ 6:39PM|#
No, I'm telling it like it is. But you can't handle the truth.
And no Jim Bob, I'm not a cop. I'm one of the few libertarians left
here.
Looks like poor Rand and J sub D having nothing better to do than
post to ever topic on Reason. Who's paying you?
Elemenope|1.19.08 @ 6:44PM|#
No, I'm telling it like it is. But you can't handle the
truth. And no Jim Bob, I'm not a cop. I'm one of the few
libertarians left here.
I dunno, Hagbard. For me, ideological purity plays second fucking
fiddle to being a human being.
When your beliefs cause you to celebrate the misfortunes of others,
it's time to reassess your beliefs.
|1.19.08 @ 6:49PM|#
Looks like poor Rand and J sub D having nothing better to do
than post to ever topic on Reason.
I'm in a different time zone and I'm fortunate enough to not be
doing "work" right now. I'll leave it at that.
I'm one of the few libertarians left here.
Of course you are; that's what they all say:
"I'm the TRUE LIBERTARIAN around here!"
"But you were once sympathetic to that one police officer who
died...HERETIC!"
|1.19.08 @ 6:53PM|#
Well, I'm sure the police have learned their lesson from this: all no-knock warrants must be served by SWAT teams.
.|1.19.08 @ 6:56PM|#
Please. I could destroy your tiny-minded little anarchism in
a second, and have done so against much smarter opponents than
you.
still waitin'
or do you have a madrassa to go paint ?
|1.19.08 @ 6:59PM|#
Looks like poor Rand and J sub D having nothing better to do
than post to ever topic on Reason.
I'm retired. Wise and weary. You're a cowardly punk who lacks human
compassion and morality.
|1.19.08 @ 7:02PM|#
Well, I'm sure the police have learned their lesson from
this: all no-knock warrants must be served by SWAT
teams.
Unfortunately, that is what they'll conclude. Amped up, poorly
trained, paramilitary goons kicking in the door accompanied by
flashbangs and mass confusion.
|1.19.08 @ 7:05PM|#
still waitin'
For what? Ask a question; open your mouth and speak, son. It's what
most intelligent people do when they want to know something.
or do you have a madrassa to go paint ?
Don't you have a Furry Convention you're late for?
Tired for Liberty|1.19.08 @ 7:34PM|#
I consider myself to be a civilized human being. And yet, I feel no remorse for the death of this cop. None. Goddammit, when you execute a search warrant in plain clothes, knock down a door, unannounced ... you should expect to face some well deserved fire. If you die ... oh well, I guess. I suppose I have heard one too many of these stories, and my capacity for compassion is being drained. I truly wish it weren't so ...
|1.19.08 @ 7:36PM|#
Hagbard, as a gun-toting, AR-owning gun nut who thinks that the
home owner made the right decision to defend his domicile, I find
your ghoulish delight in this death to be absolutely
despicable.
In other words, pretty please, with sugar on top, stay the FUCK off
of my side.
Elemenope|1.19.08 @ 7:38PM|#
I consider myself to be a civilized human being. And yet, I
feel no remorse for the death of this cop. None.[...]If you die ...
oh well, I guess.
Your 'human being' card is hereby revoked. Please drop off your
silly man-suit at the coat check on the way out.
Elemenope|1.19.08 @ 7:39PM|#
In other words, pretty please, with sugar on top, stay the
FUCK off of my side.
Also, what he said.
Minion of URKOBOLD|1.19.08 @ 7:40PM|#
Don't you have a Furry Convention you're late
for?
"." is the 'worst yiffing partner, EVAR', QUOTH THE
WEIBSKOBOLD.
TIRED. Mr. STEVEN CRANE CONSIDERS HIMSELF TALL. YOU ARE BOTH
MISTAKEN. SENSELESS DEATH IS HORRIBLE AND AWFUL. WE ARE SORRY FOR
THE DISRUPTED, DESTROYED LIVES AND FAMILIES.
MEDIAGEEK AND RANDIAN AND JSUB AND OTHERS HEREBY WIN THE
THREAD.
*proves this by withering the aforementioned Mr. Steven Crane's
taint*
|1.19.08 @ 7:42PM|#
Finally!! A REAL libertarian! Did he march through a Nebraska
blizzard with a clipboard? (That is how one becomes a real
libertarian, right?)
Seriously, is this discussion actually happening?
I'm going to pour a Maker's, try to find any leaf I may have left,
and try to forget anything I've just read.
Lurkers: welcome
Trolls: go away
People who relish in others death and the family's despair: go far
far far away.
P.S. I'm thankful people like Rand and Jsub post regularly (and
many others), it lets me save time by lurking and not actually
posting.
|1.19.08 @ 7:43PM|#
I suppose I have heard one too many of these stories, and my
capacity for compassion is being drained. I truly wish it weren't
so ...
Oh, good...you let the State take away your humanity. Way to give
them that victory.
|1.19.08 @ 7:46PM|#
"Though the raid was apparently part of a drug
investigation, police aren't saying what if any drugs were found.
They won't even confirm that police had the correct
address."
The police need to get their li..,er story straight. You know, some
evidence needs to be created and some must be shredded. It's how
the "New Professionalism" works.
|1.19.08 @ 7:46PM|#
Humanity is what should lead one to the self evident conclusion that these sorts of raids must absolutely be ended or at least only used in the most dire of circumstances.
|1.19.08 @ 7:46PM|#
Look, is it possible to:
1.) Mourn for the cop, and feel sorry for his family
and
2.) Acknowledge that his own actions (and a SWAT culture in police
departments) led fairly directly to his own death
?
|1.19.08 @ 7:48PM|#
Chancelikely, yes, it is.
But even a cursory skimming of Hagbard's posts show that he seems
to take great delight in the deaths that resulted from this
situation.
Elemenope|1.19.08 @ 7:52PM|#
Of course it is, chancelikely.
But it is more than a hop, skip, jump from understanding what
factors played into the cause of someone's death all the way to
feeling no sympathy or pain (never mind rocking out the
schadenfreude) over the same.
One is a decent intellectual reaction. The other is
sociopathic.
|1.19.08 @ 7:59PM|#
chancelikely - what everyone else said.
But, let me ask you this: what's the better way to stop the
raids:
1) Scream "DEATH UNTO PIGS!!", thereby decreasing the
intellectualism and the political and social acceptability of
libertarian views
OR
2) Say "This could have been avoided!" and explain
how.
ktc2|1.19.08 @ 8:03PM|#
At exactly what point does use of force against all the state
thugs (cops), henchmen (prosecutors, judges, politicians), etc.
become the correct moral response?
Are we really that far from it now?
As I recall our founders were blowing their heads off for far less
than we endure now.
|1.19.08 @ 8:12PM|#
As I recall our founders were blowing their heads off for
far less than we endure now.
I believe the rallying cry was "no taxation withot
representation".
I'm not saying that a 2nd revolution won't be necessary, but we
do have representation.
Elemenope|1.19.08 @ 8:16PM|#
J sub D --
And besides, there is good reason to believe that they (at least at
the beginning) cared a great deal more about the "no taxation" part
than the "representation" part...especially since representation by
population in parliament would have led to a token delegation and
the same taxes as ever.
I fairly doubt any parliamentary representation offer would have
been accepted by the colonies.
|1.19.08 @ 8:26PM|#
I would like to suggest the following:
Maybe a fund should be started so that the family of the Officer
can sue the asses off of the Police Department, legal types, and
government departments involved in rubber stamping this warrant in
an effort to change how a warrant is obtained/served in the future.
Oh, and for a little $$$ so that any orphans can still go to
college when the time comes. \wipes dog turd from the bottom of
shoe, lest some of it be soiled when kicking the hell out of
Hagbard\
|1.19.08 @ 8:27PM|#
As I recall our founders were blowing their heads off for
far less than we endure now.
If by that you mean "Attempting to formally redress their arguments
with a dictatorial king and then, finding themselves rebuffed,
reluctantly choosing to start a revolution" than, yes.
ktc2, once that formal and informal redressment evaporates AND the
government has shown itself to be unresponsive to the will of the
People, then it might be the time. Maybe. But it requires
intellectual thought and serious commitment, not just blind and
random violence. And even then I'd be hesitant.
Remember the American Revolution only had, what, 30% or less
popular support?
Don't forget, though, that "the People" are NOT libertarian, so
don't use that as an excuse.
I fairly doubt any parliamentary representation offer would
have been accepted by the colonies.
Well, perhaps the taxation part was the practical catalyst, but the
representation argument for revolution would have been seriously
undercut by said token delegation.
Remember that people were pretty desperate NOT to have to revolt; a
token delegation would've strongly undercut the "moral" argument
for revolution in the eyes of many supporters.
Heh...if Britain didn't have a crazy king we could all still be
subjects of the Crown. Huh.
|1.19.08 @ 8:30PM|#
Milo - not only is that a humane thing to do, but it's brilliant
strategy to boot.
It puts government in check (hopefully) and makes the
rubber-stampers think twice; it has a "human interest" face to
it.
Awesome.
ktc2|1.19.08 @ 8:31PM|#
Who (outside the government) still thinks the government is
responsive to the people?
Nobody I know.
I'm not saying grab your guns and march on D.C. or your state
capital.
I'm asking is there a "litmis test" so to speak for when armed
rebellion (however futile) is justified?
Anonymoose.|1.19.08 @ 8:35PM|#
I'm asking is there a "litmis test" so to speak for when armed rebellion (however futile) is justified?
I think the absolute line is when they try to take your guns. Up until then, use your best judgment.
Elemenope|1.19.08 @ 8:36PM|#
I'm asking is there a "litmus test" so to speak for when
armed rebellion (however futile) is justified?
The following is true of at least 25% of citizens: You and three
people you know personally have a family member or close friend who
was grievously victimized by the man.
Or if they'll be punch and pie afterwards.
But not cake. The cake is a lie!
|1.19.08 @ 8:41PM|#
Who (outside the government) still thinks the government is
responsive to the people?
I think the fact that politicians still pander to different
interest groups prove they are VERY responsive to the people. I
just don't happen to LIKE what most of "The People" prefer.
ktc2 - we don't have anything approaching "sham" or "farcical"
elections, do we? I mean, most people walk into the booth, pull the
lever and the shit becomes (or fails to become) law.
That sounds pretty responsive to me.
Johncjackson3rd- VP Cosmotaria|1.19.08 @ 8:48PM|#
Well, at least the shooter is a white guy. That means he might have a chance with the self-defense claim ( in case you didnt know, only white people have the right to property, gun rights and self defense in many areas/minds. the "populist paleos" like it that way).
ktc2|1.19.08 @ 9:16PM|#
Hmm...don't know about that. I'd say our elections are pretty
much a farce.
In fact the South Park episode with the choice between the giant
douche and the turd sandwich is a pretty damn good representation
of them.
|1.19.08 @ 10:16PM|#
"The last thing anybody wants after taking a human life is to
get a bunch of pats on the back. Taking a life isn't an easy thing
to do, and the glib manner you treat it with shows you're a
superficial little fucker."
While thats true, takeing a HUMAN life is a difficult thing, that
isnt part of the issue here....he didnt take a HUMAN life, he shot
a pig...even if it was a pig in human clothing...it was still a
pig...if everybody would do the same we might see a free country in
our lifetime
The Wine Commonsewer|1.19.08 @ 11:12PM|#
Well, that was strange. The entire comment was there when I tapped submit
Cactus|1.19.08 @ 11:13PM|#
Good. The only crime is that the homeowner didn't kill the
entire entry team.
These home invasions will only stop when multiple members of the
entry teams have to be hauled out in body bags every time the thugs
bust down a door.
Elemenope|1.19.08 @ 11:14PM|#
Dose, you don't believe that and I can prove it.
Yikes! It's tinfoil hat time, people!
The Wine Commonsewer|1.19.08 @ 11:14PM|#
Trying it again........
He should get a metal and a ticker tape parade.
That would be Medal.....
...he didnt take a HUMAN life, he shot a pig.....
Wait, did I just walk through the looking glass into the sixties?
Apparently I shouldn't be mixing the Oxycodone with the Pinot
Noir.
The Wine Commonsewer|1.19.08 @ 11:19PM|#
A First Degree Murder charge? Somebody needs to explain to me
how this was, in any way, premeditated.
And they wonder why some folks call them pigs.
|1.19.08 @ 11:30PM|#
Check this, and many like it, out.
http://www.policelink.com/news/articles/9395-cop-killer-in-custody-after-standoff
In all of the list I read, not one person questioned the
situation.
And Law Enforcement wonders at the growing distaste for it.
A sampling:
"Godspeed Brother! ........ OK, I don't want to jump to
conclusions, but I am getting SICK AND TIRED of hearing about
Officers getting shot and our fellow Warriors not returning fire!
Hello, F-ing cover fire Gents, get the job done! This is really
something that pisses me off, we are breeding a bunch of victimsnot
warriors! If your fellow Warrior is going to be on point and he/she
takes a round or gun fire???? Lay down SUPPRESSIVE FIRE A.S.A.P. so
you can get your fellow Officer out of the kill zone! We out here
on LAPD had a bunch of Officers serving a warrant on a 187 suspect
and after the knock and notice, he put 7 , 45 caliber rounds from a
Glock 21 through the door, and NO ONE in the stack laid down any
cover fire!!! WTF??? Those little hand canons you have on your hips
and the boom sticks you have while on point are not for show, they
are for business, so get the job done! Decide RIGHT NOW weather or
not you can take a life and if you can't I have two words for you,
Paper or Plastic! Wow, this shit pisses me off, suspect in
custody??????? Congratulations! One shot fired, yeah, by the
suspect, are you F-ing kidding me? My fellow Warriors who do not
have their minds right, better shit or get off the pot!
Unbelievable!"
|1.19.08 @ 11:32PM|#
TWC,
They have decided that the actual defining characteristic of Murder
1 no longer applies when dealing with governmental
functionaries.
Shoot The Man(tm) and it's the injection express.
A. Sol.|1.19.08 @ 11:33PM|#
"What would things have been like if every Security operative,
when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain
whether the would return alive and had to say good-bye to his
family?"
Would you apologist clowns be so quick to clamor in defense of a
mafia goon, shot dead by a frightened man targeted for a kidnapping
in the wee hours of the morning? C'mon, the mobster's got a family
at home that "loves and depends on him" and everything...
I didn't think so...
but make the goon a cop, and shitheels can't help but salute, even
though the act is virtually identical.
Rimfax|1.19.08 @ 11:58PM|#
Uh, this thread really turned into a complete circle-jerk around Hagbard's comment. Is anybody keeping score? How many drinks do I need to take to catch up?
|1.20.08 @ 12:23AM|#
Wow Troubleshooter. That posting is something else...like someone held up a mirror to Hagbard. Maybe we can arrange a meeting between the two of them, and they could eliminate each other. Seems like a win-win.
|1.20.08 @ 12:32AM|#
Apparently I shouldn't be mixing the Oxycodone with the Pinot Noir.
Awesome.
In other news, the cops probably won't knock when they come to
check that Oxycodone script.
douglas gray|1.20.08 @ 1:02AM|#
Thanks for the post Radley, it looks like Cory Maye all over again. It'll be interesting to see how the case unfolds..........
|1.20.08 @ 2:56AM|#
If you make a living breaking into people's houses with guns
causing problems for them you should expect to get shot and killed.
And that is what happened to this king shit cop.
Horror and moral terror are your friends. Use them. The courts will
not help you. Only when these assholes become afraid of being
summarily executed upon entering your home will this bullshit
stop.
Burrow Owl|1.20.08 @ 3:29AM|#
TWC Wrote:
"A First Degree Murder charge? Somebody needs to explain to me how
this was, in any way, premeditated.
And they wonder why some folks call them pigs."
Well said.
Throughout this thread,a common theme seems to have emerged: ie,
That we should pity those who have died in the act of persecuting
others. Why should we take pity on someone who gets their ass
kicked while they are engaged in the act of suppressing personal
freedom?
To hell with the fascist fuckwits.
As much as I would prefer to see a peaceful resolution to the WOD,
I have pretty much come to the conclusion that the insanity will
not end unless and until the citizenry makes it absolutely clear
that the continuation of present policy can (and will) be hazardous
to the health of the oppressors.
|1.20.08 @ 3:32AM|#
Wow, I see a lot of handles I don't recognize spouting evil. Who
sent the H&R url to Ron Paul's mailing list?
Hagbard, I believe the word you were looking for at 5:20 was
'medal.' Thank you so much for coming back (at 5:37) and offering
us the false choice between being a statist asshole and
anti-statist asshole. Good show. To you and all your sock puppet
friends, know that when you express glee at the death of police
officer, you lose any hope of (positively) influencing anyone
outside of your .01%. That's why people are saying, "stay off my
side." Your attitude inoculates people against what ever you stand
for.
To the regulars, you're wresting with a pig, with all that that
implies.
Bill Cooke|1.20.08 @ 4:43AM|#
Again one should not be happy over the death of another. But looking at the criminal case, the cop does look like a criminal. That is generally the case with undercover cops as they want to blend in with the criminal element. If a man looking like that showed up at my house - and he wasn't in uniform - I would shoot him too in self-defense.
|1.20.08 @ 7:50AM|#
I'm reminded of a cracked.com quote:
"You may be wearing that Smurfs shirt for super-ironic reasons, but
at the end of the day, you're a grown man in a Smurfs shirt."
You all may have perfectly valid reasons (in your own mind) that
it's OK to take glee in the death of a police officer.
At the end of the day, you're still a grown man advocating for the
death of a police officer: what's the difference between you and
somebody else who thinks that breach of a moral code should mean
death to the offender?
ktc2|1.20.08 @ 10:27AM|#
Um . . . perhaps because the cop INITIATED violence against
another human being and was subsequently killed by that person in
self defense?
I'm not advocating we go out and start executing cops. I'm not a
blood thirsty moron but putting myself in the position of the
person at home I can see how this happened and why it's morally
justified.
He did what was right. Should he get a medal? No.
Should he be tried for murder one? No.
What should happen (and definitely will not) is a good review of
what led to this situation, how it could have been
avoided/neutralized and steps taken accordingly.
This will NOT happen because our moronic WOD where the ends (which
will always be unattainable) justifies any means.
Fluffy|1.20.08 @ 10:49AM|#
when you express glee at the death of police officer, you
lose any hope of (positively) influencing anyone outside of your
.01%.
Well, there are two questions to consider here:
The first question is "Under what circumstances would violence
against representatives of the state be moral?"
The second question is "Under what circumstances would violence
against representatives of the state be prudent?"
They don't produce the same answer. Your point is relevant to the
second discussion, but not the first.
There is an infinite field for philosophical discussion of the
relationship between the individual and the state that is entirely
outside the second, prudential question.
anarcho agoro|1.20.08 @ 11:38AM|#
anarcho agoro
That it was cops doesn't even come up on my radar. It was armed men
kicking a man's door down in the dark of night, with the intent of
kidnapping the sleeping occupant and seizing his property, for the
"crime" of engaging in non state sanctioned free market
transactions.
Even if it is in your state sanctioned job description, surprise
invasions of someone's home, by force, with guns drawn, is risky
business. Maybe if it were riskier, they'd stop doing it.
|1.20.08 @ 11:44AM|#
Anyone who kills a cop in uniform performing his duty, deserves
the death penalty no questions asks. Any cop who kicks in someone's
door without clearly identifying himself as a cop and giving the
person a reasonable chance to surrender, deserves to get his head
blown off. If you want to hold anyone responsible for this guy's
death, hold the police chief who ordered him there to conduct this
kind of raid. I am sorry but I don't have any sympathy for the cop
in this case unless it some other facts are revealing showing that
the raid was anything but a chaotic home invasion.
Sadly, the lesson the police will learn from this will be to shoot
more often and be more militant. The lesson should be, "gee maybe
we should stop kicking in people's doors and be more open about the
fact that we are cops and you know like wear uniforms and badges
and knock on people's doors so there is no question that they know
who we are." Fat fucking chance that will happen.
|1.20.08 @ 12:17PM|#
ktc2 - I agree with most of your practical solutins (review,
let's not glory in it on either side, let's get it fixed.
But this:
Um . . . perhaps because the cop INITIATED violence against
another human being and was subsequently killed by that person in
self defense?
Define "initiation of violence".
Bonus questions: Is that a faith to which you adhere, that is, you
can reflexively point to any situation and declare guilt and
innocence?
Principles are not substitutes for thinking.
John...let me fix that for you:
I am sorry but I don't have any sympathy for the
cop Soldier in this case unless it some other facts
are revealing showing that the raid Iraq War was
anything but a chaotic home invasion. act of
aggression
You know, John, some people think that Soldiers in so-called
"immoral" wars deserve death; you're a lot closer to a lefty than
you want to admit.
Maybe if it were riskier, they'd stop doing it.
Best you wire your house with Claymores, then.
Oh wait, you're not in the at-risk group? Then quit the hysterics
and come up with some practical solutions to fixing.
Hint one: violence, or the advocation thereof, will not help.
M|1.20.08 @ 12:33PM|#
Question for the historians about the advice given by some here to encourage policy revision by freelance negative reinforcement: Has there ever been an instance in which private armed resistance to state-terrorism has resulted in any state's backing off without entirely ceasing to govern the resisting population? Ie, is there a known successful precedent for the strategy of guerrilla counter-terrorism (self-defense) merely pushing back a government's reach to status quo ante levels?
|1.20.08 @ 12:48PM|#
In all of the list I read, not one person questioned the
situation.
I'll note that our "side" has failed to do the same
thing...instead, some of us heard "drug raid" and "dead cop" and
started spouting disgusting bullshit.
anarcho agoro|1.20.08 @ 12:54PM|#
your debate style here, as balanced against your chosen
"Ayn_Randian" moniker, rankles me.
Maybe, so as not to sully Ayn's name and work with your decidedly
low rent contributions hereabouts, you oughta change your forum
name to "snarky and shrill statist".
Just a suggestion.
Do what you're gonna do.
The Wine Commonsewer|1.20.08 @ 12:57PM|#
AR, I tend to side with us but I am reserving judgment to an
extent because we has been sandbagged before. Things sometimes are
not as they appear.
OTOH, I can assure you if you come busting through my door you're
going to get shot. I ain't afraid of much, but I am afraid of home
invasion robbery.
BUT, nobody in their right mind is going to shoot a cop if they
know that the cops are there to serve a warrant. That's movie
script madness but rarely happens in real life because there is
only one very predictable end to it.
I am not terribly surprised but I am deeply disturbed by the LAPD
post by Trouble shooter. Known enough cops to not doubt the
accuracy of the quote.
Interesting response to John, BTW.
The Wine Commonsewer|1.20.08 @ 1:00PM|#
Oh, and busting down somebody's door on a drug raid is pretty
much initiating force. To get around that you might want to have
the PD show up in uniform with a search warrant and knock politely
on the front door during the day. You might also want to give the
guy the opportunity to make a call to the PD to verify the
warrant.
What? Can't do that? Oh, because he might flush the coke down the
sewer.
Dave W.|1.20.08 @ 1:03PM|#
Has there ever been an instance in which private armed
resistance to state-terrorism has resulted in any state's backing
off without entirely ceasing to govern the resisting population?
Ie, is there a known successful precedent for the strategy of
guerrilla counter-terrorism (self-defense) merely pushing back a
government's reach to status quo ante levels?
They are starting to wire houses to explode in Iraq.
The Wine Commonsewer|1.20.08 @ 1:03PM|#
Maybe if it were riskier, they'd stop doing it
Funny story about a guy I used to know and that response to cops
writing traffic tickets but I can't tell it because this bb is
being monitored by The Man
The Wine Commonsewer|1.20.08 @ 1:08PM|#
Burrow, thanks.
I knew an LA County Sheriff that once arrested an old man for
pulling out in front of him and causing an accident. I asked him
why he would do that and his response was something like anyone
who would pull out in front of a cop with lights and sirens on is
either drunk, on drugs, or mentally incompetent. In any case,
they're going to jail.
And I see the whole arrest thing in this case as a manifestation of
that kind of thinking. We do know that the guy shot the cop. It is
possible that if the guy shot a civilian in the same circumstances
that he may have been arrested (or not). It is highly unlikely that
he would have been charged with the maximum possible charges.
Actually, the guy is lucky they didn't simply kill him (and his
dog).
miche|1.20.08 @ 1:28PM|#
From the article:
...charged him with first-degree murder and use of a firearm in the commission of a felony.
Anybody else here think that the firearm charge is weird?
|1.20.08 @ 1:48PM|#
Maybe, so as not to sully Ayn's name and work with your
decidedly low rent contributions hereabouts, you oughta change your
forum name to "snarky and shrill statist".
Maybe you should actually think some stuff through, instead of
reflexively associating Ayn Rand's name with cop-killing
anarchism.
"The use of physical force-even its retaliatory use-cannot be left
at the discretion of individual citizens." - Ayn Rand
And what, pray tell, is "statist" (an ill-understood label thrown
around by the small-minded) about my posts?
Saying that we should reserve judgement instead of leaping to
conclusions until the full facts of the case are known?
Not leaping to endorse the "KILL THE PIGS!" attitude I'm snarky
about?
your debate style here, as balanced against your chosen
"Ayn_Randian" moniker, rankles me.
Life be hard. If that's what rankles you, I suggest you get some
thicker skin. Sounds to me like you don't know too much about Ayn
Rand.
|1.20.08 @ 2:02PM|#
"Sadly, the lesson the police will learn from this will be
to shoot more often and be more militant. The lesson should be,
"gee maybe we should stop kicking in people's doors and be more
open about the fact that we are cops and you know like wear
uniforms and badges and knock on people's doors so there is no
question that they know who we are." Fat fucking chance that will
happen."
I agree with you John. All I can see on the horizon is an
escalation of the violence and mayhem. As our police become more
militarized and are adopting tactics used by special ops we
citizens should be concerned enough to mobilize against this and
put a stop to it.
Regrettably, those of us who see this decay in our social fabric
are too small in number to be more than a nuisance to those who
pull the strings.
As an old soldier that stood up to defend the ideals we as a nation
held for so long and to see them crushed by the innumerable
tresspasses of our government masters is almost too much to bear
sometimes. Each of these actions add to the outrage and up the
ante.
Unfortunately, I see no solution other than cover yours and your
buddies' asses, keep low and try to defend your ground if you have
to, and know when you need to fade into the background to continue
the struggle.
Christ on a Cracker|1.20.08 @ 2:22PM|#
"It often also includes murder undertaken during the
commission of another felony (such as robbery-murder or
rape-murder), even if the killing itself was unintentional or of
the moment. It can also include murders of certain classes of
public official (police, fire, rescue) if the murderer had reason
to believe that the victim was a member of one of those groups
(i.e. an announcement, badge, or uniform in view
I don't have a problem with this. However, the cops involved (at
least on the top ones that planned the operation) also must be held
to a high standard. If ANYTHING happened outside of the official
procedure, wrong address, obviously bad information, etc., the
responsible persons must also be charged with officer's death. This
was the logical, forseeable outcome from their negligence.
The cops have a higher standing under the law. The must also bear a
higher responsibility. You can not have it both ways.
CoC
|1.20.08 @ 2:48PM|#
Ryndian,
You are an amazing moron. I am mean truly amazing. Police work is
not war. The police are not and should not be conducting war on our
own citizens. To the extent that the police are conducting war on
our own citizens they forfeit their moral authority.
As far as soldiers in war, the fact is that it is part of the job
to get killed sometimes. They die so you don't have to. I say that
as a veteran and someone who accepted that fact when I really was
in danger. It is a tragedy when a soldier dies but ultimately it is
part of his job description. As far as "amoral wars" go, well you
are rooting for our soldiers to get killed you are rooting for the
other side to win. If you are so stupid that you can't see the
moral distinction between say the US and the Taliban, then frankly
you are not worth the time it takes to respond to you.
Perhaps if you had better tastes in authors you might be a little
brighter. But then again, if you were brighter, you probably
wouldn't have wasted so much time reading Rand. Sort of a chicken
and an egg thing I guess.
|1.20.08 @ 2:50PM|#
Zig Zag Man,
Sadly you are right. I don't see a good answer to it. I would love
to go run for DA but I doubt a "I am going to keep the dumb ass
police from kicking in your door and shooting you" would win that
many votes and even if it did, my district would be one island of
sanity and respect in a ocean of insanity and dispect for
fundemental rights.
|1.20.08 @ 2:59PM|#
Wow, we have a tragic number of jerks on here today.
It sounds like me to have been a lamentable incident.
The rationale for all these enhanced police powers: no knock
warrants, "dynamic entries", sophisticated surveillance, and
plainclothes officers in the first place, is that police (and
politicians) have become frustrated by the increasing
sophistication of criminals (although one wonders if anything the
dopers do is actually more sophisticated than the bootleggers in
the thirties) and have tried to give the police tools to make it so
that there are ways to catch even the most sophisticated
criminals.
One problem with this is that these tools are inherently more
risky, to civilians, to officers, to criminals, and to our
liberties, and I don't think they've really taken that risk into
account. I mean, how significant could the case against this guy
have been? Why couldn't they have just knocked?
It's horrible that this guy got himself killed, but the
first-degree murder charge tells me that the law-enforcement
establishment is giving the suspect no benefit of the doubt. They
don't seem to be accepting any of the blame as an institution; they
talk at length about how hazardous a job it is, but don't seem to
realize that they have some control over how hazardous it is. Given
that it'll probably be difficult to say what really happened,
because the two best witnesses are dead or not obligated to
testify, The prosecutor must think he can railroad this guy based
on "police officer good/ man who shoots police officer bad"
thinking. It's sad that this can't be chalked up to a horrible
accident. The police in that town would probably harass that guy to
his dying day anyways.
The Wine Commonsewer|1.20.08 @ 3:02PM|#
.....keep low and try to defend your ground if you have to,
and know when you need to fade into the background to continue the
struggle.
The wisdom to know the difference. Amen.
Keepin' a low profile regards, TWC
|1.20.08 @ 3:03PM|#
John, you're a dumbass.
You were the one drawing moral equivalence, not me.
You think cops deserve to die because they wage an illegal
war.
Some people think that Soldiers deserve to die because THEY wage an
illegal war.
The only thing that keeps your side and the extreme left side
screaming at each other is that you don't see the similarities in
your own thinking.
FWIW, I don't think either the cop nor the Soldier deserves to die
for ill-conceived policy proscriptions.
You are such a one-way thinker it's really pathetic.
I don't see a good answer to it.
Of course you don't, because you gave up on America a long time
ago.
Instead of hollering about immoral this and immoral that, let's get
down to the grit of coming up with better, more thought out
policies that reduce human suffering at the hands of the
State.
To do this, we have to be taken seriously in the mainstream.
And let me give you a hint: if you wouldn't walk into a bar and say
"DEATH UNTO PIGS!", perhaps you shouldn't say it here, either.
|1.20.08 @ 3:05PM|#
We know this tragic event was initiated by a no-knock raid as
part of the War on Drugs Sanity.
We know that the "War"on Drugs Reason has led to the
militarization of our law enforcement community.
We know this has accomplished nothing but ratchet up the violence,
endangering cops, non-violent suspects, and innocent
bystanders.
We know that prohibition has had a corrosive effect on the
integrity of the law enforcers and the resultant distrust and
disdain of them by large parts of the citizenry.
We know that the only candidates who support ending the War on
Drugs Personal Freedom are Dennis Kucinich, and Ron
Paul, who are garnering 1 and 7 percent in their respective
parties.
Talk to your friends, neighbors, relatives and coworkers about this
ineffective, needless, madness. Millions of minds have to be
changed before we can end this insanity.
Ending it is the only sane, moral thing to do.
|1.20.08 @ 3:16PM|#
"Talk to your friends, neighbors, relatives and coworkers
about this ineffective, needless, madness."
I do this a lot. When I had a regular job, I was the resident
conspiracy theorist and Libertarian. When I would talk about the
excesses of the government, sometimes people roll their eyes and
dismiss you for a while. Then something happens and a light comes
on and they say to you, "Now I know what you have been talking
about for so long." That's when you know your efforts are not for
naught.
The Wine Commonsewer|1.20.08 @ 3:22PM|#
Also weird is the 8:30 bedtime.
I know people who crash that early on work nights, espc if they
have to be to work at 5:00am.
Or, he may have been reading in bed. Prolly The Fountainhead.
Minion of URKOBOLD|1.20.08 @ 3:23PM|#
anarcho
SILLY RABBIT. IT IS YOU WHO IS SNARKY AND LOW RENT. AND NOT ONLY DO
YOU RANKLE COCKLES, YOU MAKE THE SPINAL TAP SONG "CUPS AND CAKES"
SEEM LIKE "ROCK NOW, ROCK THE NIGHT" BY EUROPE.
NOW, GO TO YOUR ROOM.
The Wine Commonsewer|1.20.08 @ 3:25PM|#
Hey, just looked at my mail from yesterday and I see on the sample ballot that MAD MAX is running for president in the Republican primary.
VM|1.20.08 @ 3:25PM|#
"We know that the only candidates who support ending the War on
Drugs Personal Freedom are Dennis Kucinich, and Ron Paul, who are
garnering 1 and 7 percent in their respective parties."
Jsub - dunno about the former mayor of Cleveland, but RP is against
the federal drug war. these incidents wouldn't go
away with his plans. argh!!!!!!
The Wine Commonsewer|1.20.08 @ 3:30PM|#
VM, assuming that RP was elected and succeeds in ending the drug
war, I believe the incidents would diminish greatly.
Without the ongoing pressure and threats from the federal agencies
charged with drug enforcement, the states would not have as much
motivation to continue these efforts.
|1.20.08 @ 3:35PM|#
Yeah, ending the federal drug war effectively ends the state drug war. I mean, states can still enact prohibition laws if they want, but none do. Mostly because state governments don't have enough money and resources to run such an operation.
VM|1.20.08 @ 3:41PM|#
how would the incidents diminish? it's all at the state/local
level?
or if his bully pulpit has that kind of influence, then his anti
science or his DOMA support will also have a ripple effect...
re: funding - you could also imagine a more negative scenario where
the cops would be harder to stop. it's really a difficult issue,
and i really appreciate the discussion from you two!!! (head
explodes from difficulty of issue)
|1.20.08 @ 3:44PM|#
how would the incidents diminish? it's all at the state/local level?
Well, how often do you hear of the police knocking down peoples
doors in search of booze in "dry counties"?
|1.20.08 @ 3:57PM|#
Cesar, that's not a good analogy because there's no need to
store booze in a dry county when you can just store it in a non-dry
county next door. Same goes for drinking it.
I think the idea you're getting at though is that if one state
legalized drugs all the other state would too, after they saw how
much money was rushing into the drug state. So there would be much
more pressure on the states to legalize than on the federal
government.
robc|1.20.08 @ 4:08PM|#
Well, how often do you hear of the police knocking down
peoples doors in search of booze in "dry counties"?
I know of one. He owned the farm next to my grandparents. Also the
local gas station/grocery store. I think thats where you contacted
him to buy the booze, but not sure about that. It turns out
innocence can be bought.
|1.20.08 @ 4:11PM|#
Jsub - dunno about the former mayor of Cleveland, but RP is
against the federal drug war. these incidents wouldn't go away with
his plans. argh!!!!!!
The feds started the War on Drugs Minorities and
continue to encourage/bribe the states to play along. Yeah, I know
the Texas Rangers and Ohio State Police are all for it, but first
things first. Get the federal government out of the
equation.
|1.20.08 @ 4:13PM|#
I think the idea you're getting at though is that if one state legalized drugs all the other state would too, after they saw how much money was rushing into the drug state. So there would be much more pressure on the states to legalize than on the federal government.
Yes, and the fact that one is free to move between states without
having ones car searched makes enforcement difficult. If Maryland
legalized marijuana but Virginia didn't, I could just drive up to
Maryland one weekend, buy a months supply of weed, then take it
back to Virginia.
|1.20.08 @ 4:54PM|#
Cesar - I am not quite sure that would work in practice.
Example: People who "bootleg" cigarettes from KY to OH (worth it
because KY's tax is like, 3 cents and OH's is like 2 dollars) get
caught a lot, and border gas stations and the like
won't sell you 50-some odd cartons when your intent is
obvious.
And yes, that's a wise business decision, if you ask me.
|1.20.08 @ 4:58PM|#
Randian,
Ex to your Ex. Nj to DEl. they limit your amount of Cigs. when
purchasing to only what you will use in a month. It's
regulated.
|1.20.08 @ 5:01PM|#
Example: People who "bootleg" cigarettes from KY to OH (worth it because KY's tax is like, 3 cents and OH's is like 2 dollars) get caught a lot, and border gas stations and the like won't sell you 50-some odd cartons when your intent is obvious.
Well, I just remember hearing from my father when he was growing up
on the MD-WV border before there was a federal drinking age. The
drinking age was 21 in Maryland but 18 in WV, and he said there was
little problem going down to WV and getting three cases of beer or
a few handles of liquor to take back to MD for a party.
Of course that was the mid 60s so the government in general was
probably less authoritarian about things like that then they are
now.
|1.20.08 @ 5:07PM|#
If I'm close to Ohio, Ill dash across the border to get a couple
of cartons of smokes. That's $15.00. Im sure other disparities are
much larger.
Just looked it up (for Michigan only). If I'm near Indiana, I'll
double the savings. Wisconsin splits the difference. IOW any
Michigand smoker near a border, buys his smokes out of state.
|1.20.08 @ 5:13PM|#
JsubD
New Jersey does the same. We pay 60+ per carton. Del. is 28. I am
trying to quit and refuse to cross the state line to feed my
habit.
|1.20.08 @ 5:20PM|#
Cindy,
Maybe you should vow to walk to Delaware for cigarettes.
You'd save money and have another reason to quit the vile habit.
;-)
|1.20.08 @ 5:23PM|#
Save on gas, that's another issue in this state. Corzine passed a 60 cents tax over and above on our gas as well as an additional tax on Cigs, Alcohol and our toll roads are going to increase in the next 11 yrs to a trip on the parkway will cost at that time $100.00 from tip to tip of this state. We all just can't wait. Oh I'm quiting and that is why I'm on here more now...keeps my mind off of smoking.
|1.20.08 @ 5:24PM|#
Addition to last post....And I'm getting an education as well...it's a win win situation I'd say.
Wylde Bill|1.20.08 @ 5:28PM|#
Well, I'm pretty pissed that the guy defending his home was
charged with murder, when if the story had been him dead and the
cop still sucking air the worst to happen to the cop (even if it
were the wrong address) would be *maybe* a suspension (probably
with pay) from the police force, and worst case, fired from their
job for taking another person's life.
Obviously there is *not* "equality before the law" for all classes
of citizens in this country- so, yes, I understand the feelings of
those who say "good riddance" when you see one of those of the
privileged, bureaucratic class "get theirs".
This is, of course, a purely emotional response, and doesn't
recognize the individuality of the officer in question, who was,
after all, "just doing his job" (or is it "just following
orders"?)- and most likely, as someone else pointed out, with all
of the best intentions in the world (insert reference to paving
roads to hell here).
In less long-winded terms, the cop didn't make the system, I never
knew him personally, so it's wrong to gloat over the death of this
stranger who might have been a great guy, and someone you'd like to
hang out with (as opposed to the Atlanta cops who planted dope in
the house of the old lady they'd just killed).
One doesn't know, hence one should reserve judgement- and not
express the glee one would feel if cops like these were
the one's getting lead for dinner.
IOW's I'm sorry the guy got shot, but I don't think the guy who
shot him is going to get a fair shake, and that (along with the
records of police involved in "drug task forces") get's in the way
of my pity for the cop...
|1.20.08 @ 5:40PM|#
I have conflicting ideas on this whole subject. I worked with 10 heroine addicts back 7 yrs ago and worked with my hometown PD and 3 surrounding PD's to allow me time with these addicts. Things worked out well and they are in society, functioning well now for 7yrs., which would otherwise not be. My youngest daughter majored in Criminal Justice/Forensics so I'm all over the place on this issue. I guess you would say that I am sitting on the fence with this issue. I'm not in favor of Raids and non-identification. I've seen that with my own eyes and what they do to a house and family. Not pretty. Yet hard drugs are...well I have issues with that. Maybe my compassion for people in general is getting in the way. Something needs to be done about raids such as these and about our laws in general. None of these things are working and people are dying over it.
|1.20.08 @ 5:44PM|#
Cindy-
Before 1914 one could buy pure cocaine or heroin over the counter
in their local pharmacy. The world didn't end because of that, and
I doubt it would today either.
apotheon|1.20.08 @ 5:50PM|#
I think there are some pretty odious extremes all over this
discussion. Here's my take:
1. I feel for the guy in jail for doing nothing more dastardly than
defending himself and his home from unidentified intruders.
2. I feel for the family of the cop who was killed.
3. I wish the cop wasn't killed, mostly because of the negative
impact this is having on the victim of the no-knock raid and the
potential (figurative) ammunition this will give some enemies of
liberty.
4. The cop reaped what he sowed. It's possible he thought he was
doing the right thing, but it's possible he didn't think so. Even
if he thought he was doing the right thing, though, he arrived at
that conclusion by failing to do even the minimal bit of thinking
about the character of his own actions necessary to be a
responsible, ethical human being. Anyone with an IQ over 60 should
be able to figure out that breaking into someone's house without
announcing yourself is a good way to screw up the life of people
who don't deserve such treatment. Period. This makes it difficult
for me to feel sympathy for the dead cop, though I am also not
elated at his death, either. Cheering the death of a human being is
absurd, even in circumstances like this -- but recognizing his
culpability in his own fate, and being happy that certain worse
potential outcomes were avoided, seems perfectly reasonable to
me.
5. We still don't know all the facts of this case. I reserve final
judgment until I know more.
No|1.20.08 @ 5:56PM|#
My compassion ends with the man who must spend the rest of his
life knowing he took another man's life, no matter how justified he
was in defending his home.
The man who died made the decision to break into that home,
(period). Because our courts allow badged goons this action does
not absolve him of his immoral actions.
Funny, if the home owner had killed a criminal attempting a
strong-armed robbery we would be patting him on the back for giving
society one less parasite to deal with. Why that doesn't apply in
this situation???
Or do you think it was the first time the cop had terrorized the
lives of your fellow citizens? Or is that where YOUR compassion
ends?
|1.20.08 @ 5:56PM|#
This is very true. I believe at that time, we weren't aware of just how addictive these drugs were and they were used as pain killers. Medicine was not as advanced as it is now. However, I have a problem with our future (meaning kids)getting hooked on a drug that will in effect halt their ability to function in our society. Some of these are bright kids with a future. I can't save the world and jail is no place for them. It serves no purpose. Dealers are another issue with me. Raids on the wrong house...not good. Raids without identifing yourself on entry is smart. You can be killed, even if you are doing your job or following orders. People who enter into law enforcement are made aware that there are dangers of death involved so there's just another issue. No one is immune to a bullet and in circumstances such as this article pointed out, the dangers of such a job are very clear.
|1.20.08 @ 5:58PM|#
Cindy, the big effect of making these drugs illegal was not
reducing addiction. Before 1914, the profile of the typical addict
was a middle-aged housewife. It wasn't good that they were
addicted, but at least they didn't have to commit crimes to feed
their habit. At least the could take it safely, and at least
dealers weren't looking for more and more powerful drugs that are
easier to hide. Ex. without the drug war crack would have never
been invented.
After they were made illegal, the typical addict is now a common
street criminal.
|1.20.08 @ 6:04PM|#
Cesar,
I agree. However, Imagine this, your wife taking care of your kids,
high on cocaine...where's the safety? I raised to children and
needed all my faculties to do so. A clear head to reason with them
is one example. I could not have done so high as a kite. Women back
then? Need I explain just how unhappy a lot of them were over their
lifes circumstances...which was by the way their choice in the
first place.
|1.20.08 @ 6:06PM|#
In all actuality, the drug work crack down has done enough damage. I wonder though, if, there is any turning back should we stop it.
apotheon|1.20.08 @ 6:08PM|#
"However, Imagine this, your wife taking care of your kids, high
on cocaine...where's the safety? I raised to children and needed
all my faculties to do so. A clear head to reason with them is one
example. I could not have done so high as a kite."
Now imagine the current state of affairs:
Single mothers taking care of their kids, high on crack (worse than
coke -- or the meth that the housewives were actually taking at the
time), living on the streets, doing tricks for the cash to feed
their habits, unable to provide proper care for their kids in such
circumstances even if they had clear heads.
Which is worse? This is the consequence of our "war on drug(
user)s".
|1.20.08 @ 6:08PM|#
"Example: People who "bootleg" cigarettes from KY to
OH..."
I lived outside of Kansas City when I was a kid (late 70s/early
80s), and I remember hearing of incidents of cops parked on the
state line between KS and MO waiting to pull people over who bought
booze in MO and brought it back to KS when buying was illegal in KS
(I think this was because of Sundays sales laws, and I think I have
the direction correct).
|1.20.08 @ 6:11PM|#
You know what? The powers that have been and be, have made such a mess of things. Crack may never go away and heroine either. I wonder that if this whole *drug war* thing is stopped, if the rest will calm down as well. There are those of us out there with the willingness and stamina to help those who do become addicts. Then the raids could stop. People would not be subject to the bullet. Although OD's will still happen but those were the addicts choices and that's just a fact of life in those instances. I've seen what that looks like and it's not pretty. I can even predict correctly 9 times out of 10 when that's about to occurr.
|1.20.08 @ 6:12PM|#
There are only two approaches to drugs that work:
One is legalization.
The other is the death penalty for possession. This is why
Singapore doesn't have a drug problem.
Since I prefer to live in a free society, I think the former option
is better.
|1.20.08 @ 6:13PM|#
Cesar,
Right again. This is why I just said what I did in my newest post.
I'm a long winded person who tries to shorten for the post and
doesn't get everything down in one. Please have patience with
me.
|1.20.08 @ 6:14PM|#
"Before 1914, the profile of the typical addict was a
middle-aged housewife. It wasn't good that they were addicted, but
at least they didn't have to commit crimes to feed their habit. At
least the could take it safely, and at least dealers weren't
looking for more and more powerful drugs that are easier to
hide."
But it's perfectly OK to destroy your life using legal substances.
(/snark)
I also have a problem with the AMA / Big Pharma / Big Treatment, et
al, telling me what substances I can ingest for whatever reason.
Most new legal drugs have many side effects, yet the
prohibitionistas want people to be required to use Prozac instead
of Marijuana. Prozac has been shown to cause psychosis, Marijuana
has way fewer side effects and yet it is illegal.
I want government out of my body, I want ownership of my body.
apotheon|1.20.08 @ 6:15PM|#
Cesar . . . please don't spread that around too much. There are
too many people in this country who think that the death penalty
for possession would be a good idea. I don't want to run the risk
of seeing that turned into law.
Okay, so I'm kinda half-kidding about not spreading that around.
I'm not kidding about the fact that there are quite a few people in
this country who would probably think the death penalty for
possession is a good idea.
|1.20.08 @ 6:17PM|#
Zig Zag-
Thats absolutely right. Big pharma would lose TONS of money if
marijuana were legal since its effective for a lot of things.
People could smoke that for pain instead of having to use the (much
more addictive) Oxycontin/Vicodin.
But guess what? A plant get be patented, so they can't make money
off of it.
Thats really the only reason I think marijuana is still illegal. I
can be sympathetic to people who think cocaine and heroin should be
outlawed, but I can never understand for the life of me what people
have against marijuana.
|1.20.08 @ 6:18PM|#
Zig Zag Man,
Don't even get me started on Big Pharma....that's just legalized
addiction where people are led to believe they need to be on this
stuff and it's not solving their problem. Here's what I say to
doctors (I have some health issues, I'm a cancer remission for 24
yrs now and they don't know how I'm alive still.), you mask the
problem here and create 10 new ones over there. Nothing solved and
the risks are far greater than what you can buy out on the street.
That's for certain.
|1.20.08 @ 6:19PM|#
Cesar,
It's all about the money. The almighty buck always gets in the way
doesn't it.
|1.20.08 @ 6:21PM|#
Also Maryjane is known to be the best for chemo patience and it's supposed to work better than compazine (sp.?)and it kills the pain. I know that pain well and there isn't anything that works on it.
Bob Mologna|1.20.08 @ 6:23PM|#
"Ex to your Ex. Nj to DEl. they limit your amount of Cigs. when
purchasing to only what you will use in a month. It's
regulated."
The funny thing about this is that it means there is more scrutiny
traveling between certain US states than there is between EU
countries. Britain isn't even a signatory of Mastricht free
movement treaty and still there is no theoretical limit to how many
smokes or how much booze you can bring from France or Holland to
the UK. The trick is to bring only one brand of smokes at a time,
calculate how long they would last if you smoke 4 packs / day and
stick to your story. For booze cruises, you are always having a BIG
wedding.
|1.20.08 @ 6:28PM|#
You know, as much shit as the EU gets one thing it does right is freedom of movement.
|1.20.08 @ 6:32PM|#
I just want to say something here and now.
This is by far one of the nicest and respectful threads that I've
been on so far. You guys are great.
|1.20.08 @ 6:44PM|#
Cindy;
It is always a pleasure to exchange ideas with someone who is
interested in solutions to the problems our country has with
substances of all varieties.
Always remember, follow the money.
|1.20.08 @ 6:49PM|#
Zig Zag Man,
Always follow the money and there in lies the root of the problem.
Legalization could take the wind out of the sails of dealers. Less
money to be made, the thrill of the risk is gone too. Big
Pharma....Big Problem and a whole lotta money there.
|1.20.08 @ 6:50PM|#
This is by far one of the nicest and respectful threads that
I've been on so far. You guys are great.
I guess you didn't read the first 100 or so comments. ;-)
I only post like that when somebody says something downright evil
and is proud of themselves. Polite people get polite conversation,
even if I think you're incredibly, stupidly wrong. Most folks here
are like that.
|1.20.08 @ 6:52PM|#
You want to know whatelse I wonder? Just how long before they make tobacco illegal? They already are calling that a drug. They are banning it from public places. I'm not against non-smokers here but the freedom and rights which are being lost with these laws. I for one, even if I do quit, will fight those laws because of the principle of the thing. Freedom and Rights.
|1.20.08 @ 6:53PM|#
The other issue I have with the war on some drugs is:
use of drug X in any quantity whether it interferes with you're
life or not.
equals
drug abuse
If you are managing your life, paying your taxes and contributing
to society, you should not be punished by government sanctioned
programs designed to keep you unemployable for metabolites in your
urine.
Maybe when the cost of drug testing interferes with the bottom line
of the economy by keeping responsible, hard working people from
being fully employed and paying a higher tax rate, instead of
barely anything (purely legally) the government will wake up.
|1.20.08 @ 6:56PM|#
Polite people get polite conversation, even if I think you're
incredibly, stupidly wrong.
I would hope that if, you think this way about me ever, that you
would point out to me, nicely, where you think I'm being stupidly
wrong. That's because I do feel that this is a learning experience.
People learn from other people and no one is 100% correct all the
time. I can have my head up my arse sometimes and not realize
it.
Bob Mologna|1.20.08 @ 6:59PM|#
Whoops, of course the UK signed Maastricht. It's the Schengen treaty they never signed. My mistake. Still, it was nice running over to Amsterdam on the ferry to buy, ummm cigarettes. Now I'm in Arizona where there are res' stores everywhere for cheap smokes.
|1.20.08 @ 7:02PM|#
Zig Zag Man,
One can only hope. However I doubt that the Gov. will see this.
They have blinders on, all gung-ho over this issue. For years now
these people by not being employed are now getting free this and
free that and it's been putting a drain on the system. We are all
paying for it. Health Care costs for one. Think about the Charity
Care. They end up on that during an OD. Oh but try to get a child
on that who's parents are hard working and just can't afford
medical care. They have to go through H*ll just to get anywhere and
many are rejected.
|1.20.08 @ 7:02PM|#
I would hope that if, you think this way about me ever, that
you would point out to me, nicely, where you think I'm being
stupidly wrong.
Nobody has ever been reticent in pointing out my stupidity and
errors as they perceive them. Not always nicely, but I'm all grown
up. The folks here will keep you honest ond on you toes. It's not
something you need to worry about at Hit & Run. Just don't get
too sensitive.
|1.20.08 @ 7:04PM|#
J sub D,
Thank you. I'm usually not too sensitive. Those times hit when I'm
over worked with not enough sleep, and everything else in my life
is well..picture a 3 ring circus and me as the ring-leader.
unbeliever|1.20.08 @ 7:37PM|#
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
|1.20.08 @ 7:49PM|#
Nothing will "fix" what just happened. One man is dead,
another's life is in tatters. Perhaps if the 4th amendmant that
Unbeliever quoted were followed by law enforcement, this wouldn't
have happened. I haven't seen anything to indicate that a 4th
amendment violation occured, but it certainly wouldn't be the first
time. IMHO, anytime a "confidential informant" is used as a basis
for a search warrant, it's a violation of the 4th.
I haven't been to law school, but I do know how to read the English
language.
|1.20.08 @ 7:53PM|#
I am in total agreement there. This amendment is broken ever single day around our country and it needs to stop. Inaliable rights are being ignored.
|1.20.08 @ 8:03PM|#
I just went back and re-read the article and the link. It would appear nothing was mentioned of an informant and I do realize the story is not complete. Odd though, that this man now in jail, had a mother who was employed by the dept? That's odd.
KenK|1.20.08 @ 9:05PM|#
I suppose the cops will just call in an air strike from now on. It is a WAR on drugs after all.
|1.20.08 @ 9:29PM|#
I suppose the cops will just call in an air strike from now
on. It is a WAR on drugs after all.
It's been done.
|1.21.08 @ 4:56AM|#
@ Ayn_Randian:
Um, Hagbard? Perhaps you should just man up then and stop
paying the State to hire us.
Or did you think that money came out of thin air?
Actually, much of that money does come out of thin air.
It's usually known as deficit spending.
The Wine Commonsewer|1.21.08 @ 10:45AM|#
Might not quite have the context right, but I don't think we get to choose to not pay the state.
Zeb|1.21.08 @ 4:35PM|#
Regarding the comparison of police to soldiers: Police are civilians (though they seem to forget that sometimes) and can quit any time they want to if they object to what they are asked to do. Soldiers get charged with desertion if they try to do that, and thus have a much stronger "just doing my job" defense when carrying out objectionable policy.
heh2k|1.21.08 @ 5:18PM|#
It really disgusts me that neither CNN nor Fox are covering these abuses of police power. It should be on the front of papers and should be a major presidential issue.
Wylde Bill|1.21.08 @ 10:33PM|#
The other is the death penalty for possession. This is why
Singapore doesn't have a drug problem.
No.
I read an article about Singapore which talked about how all of the
vice one could want there could be found across the bridge in Johor
Baru- a different city, different country, and different
laws.
That's where the folks who live there go to do all the things
that'd get them executed in their hometown.
Singapore's lack of vice is all cosmetic.
|1.22.08 @ 1:25PM|#
I'm back from my room.
"And what, pray tell, is "statist" (an ill-understood label
thrown around by the small-minded) about my posts?"
well...
since you're praying....
I contend that if it were a gangland style goon that was shot, you
wouldn't be burping sanctity of life junk like-
"The last thing anybody wants after taking a human life is to
get a bunch of pats on the back. Taking a life isn't an easy thing
to do, and the glib manner you treat it with shows you're a
superficial little fucker."
What's more statist than devoting effort towards(faux pious)
mourning of a state sanctioned goon, killed while doing his "job",
effort than you would not be affording to a private sector goon
killed under the same circumstances (given orders to go out in the
dark of night, kidnap a man at gunpoint, and search his home for
valuables to seize)?
If I shot and killed an armed Crips and Bloods style gang member
trying to kick my door down, tie everyone in the house up, and
steal our stuff? Fuck yeah I'm happy. And I'm betting you wouldn't
have much of a problem with my glee.
That your fall back position in the debate involved including
soldiers in the mix only serves to solidify my opinion.
statist!
(most of my friends are statists)
Did the cognitive dissonance kick off the statist reflex? Or was it
visa versa?
yo|1.23.08 @ 10:47AM|#
i haven't read all the comments but the ones i did fail to place the blame for this accident on the people who are responsible... that is the judge and/or prosecutor that approved the warrant based on nothing but heresy or the police officers that may have lied to get the warrant. it wouldn't have took very much 'police work' to tell if the guy had a major pot growing operation.
well informed individual.|1.29.08 @ 2:25PM|#
"Perhaps the police were monitoring his Google searches and
e-mail via the domestic wiretapping program and discovered this
anti-American activity going on close by. We should be proud of our
newfound surveillance capabilities"
WHY? We should be proud to lose our freedom to do what we please in
our own homes? This isn't right or fair, it's unjust. It seems to
be everyday we are moving more into a communism-style of government
and away from the freedoms our forefathers fought for us to have.
It's disgusting that anyone would think that this is okay.
Yes, it isn't fair what happened to the officer but it isn't fair
that this young man should be punished either. Too often people
take the easy road and want to blame the person who makes it
easier. The law can't blame the cop because then they would be
admitting fault so they instead charge this young man with first
degree murder. What about the man who is being charged with this.
The man who was sleeping comfortably in his own home? What about
his family? What about the rest of his life? No one knows the real
facts and everyone goes off what the lying cops who have had to
change their statements say because their cops. IT WAS AN ACCIDENT,
IF THE COPS HAD BEEN DOING THEIR JOB, WHICH IS TO PROTECT AND SERVE
THE COMMUNITY THEN THAT OFFICER COULD BE AT HOME RIGHT NOW WITH HIS
FAMILY AND THAT YOUNG MAN COULD BE AT HOME WITH HIS. INSTEAD PEOPLE
DO IGNORANT THINGS AND SADLY THIS COP HAD TO PAY FOR IT.
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