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But Whatever You Do, Don't Legalize It
A new study by Freakanomics guru Steven Levitt comes to some uncomfortable conclusions about prostitution in Chicago. First, Levitt finds that prostitutes are more likely to have sex with city police than they are to be arrested by them:
They estimate that roughly 3 percent of all tricks performed by prostitutes who aren't working with pimps are freebies given to police to avoid arrest. In fact, prostitutes get officially arrested only once per 450 tricks or so, leading the authors to conclude that "a prostitute is more likely to have sex with a police officer than to get officially arrested by one."
Worse...
When freebies given to gang members are factored in, about one in 20 tricks go solely for protection and the "privilege" of plying their trade.
And worst-est...
Just as with recent studies of Mexican and Indian prostitutes, Levitt and Venkatesh find that payments go up substantially when condoms aren't used. And plenty of johns are apparently happy to pay the premium: Condoms only get used about 20 percent of the time, the authors estimate.
So every one of these problems is the result of prostitution being illegal, no? In Nevada's legal brothels, condom use is 100 percent. There's no "protection sex" for crooked cops or gang members, and there hasn't been a single case of HIV since 1988.
|1.12.08 @ 11:09AM|#
So every one of these problems is the result of prostitution
being illegal, no? In Nevada's legal brothels, condom use is 100
percent.
But doesn't forcing legal prostitutes to always use condoms create
a black market for condom-free sex? I mean, the libertarian line is
that when you try to ban something people want to buy, they'll just
buy it on the black market, and your stats show that people
definitely want condom-free sex.
The Wine Commonsewer|1.12.08 @ 11:11AM|#
condom use is 100 percent
Once upon a time in Fallon, Nevada, long, long ago, nobody had to
shower in a raincoat, laddie. :-)
Fifteen bucks went a hell of a long way, too even if the chicks,
were a long way from tens.
Back on base, Married Dave stopped by Sick Bay and demanded
penicillin from the Corpsman on duty (who LOL and declined). Told
him he shoulda used a....wait for it....CONDOM.
Excellent write-up, Radley,
The Wine Commonsewer|1.12.08 @ 11:15AM|#
Crime, there are a couple of other things that Nevada's legal
hookers are prohibited from doing. Or so I've heard.
I'm guessing that sometimes arrangements can be made.
SIV|1.12.08 @ 11:16AM|#
I advocate the strict separation of State and prostitution. As a non-member of the proposed new libertarian community I can't be purged for my radical wacko view on the matter.
|1.12.08 @ 11:23AM|#
Told him he shoulda used a....wait for
it....CONDOM.
Maybe he was just trying to be a good Catholic.
DavidS|1.12.08 @ 11:35AM|#
Actually, Levitt finds that payment doesn't go up much when
condoms are not used ($2 dollar premium for oral, $6 for vaginal,
$13 for anal).
Strong contrast with the Mexican study:
"Prostitutes in their sample report using condoms 90 percent of the
time, compared to only 25 percent in our sample for vaginal sex,
and 21 percent for anal sex. Among their Mexican prostitutes,
condom use is the default from which customers must bargain away,
potentially inducing large increases in prices. In contrast, in our
sample no condom appears to be the default choice, perhaps making
it harder for the prostitute to credibly argue for a higher price
if no condom is used."
|1.12.08 @ 11:39AM|#
Maybe he was just trying to be a good Catholic.
Good Catholics are prohibited from condom use as well as birth
control pills. The rhythm method for monogamous married couples is
acceptable. Usong this canon approved method, my mother had only
seven pregnancies in ten years. If any more is needed, this is
further evidence that white folks have no rhythm.
|1.12.08 @ 11:50AM|#
Of course condom use in Nevada's legal borthels is 100%. But,
there is also a whole lot of illegal hookers in Nevada as well. I
am sure they are taking extra money to have sex without a condom.
Legalizing prostitution is not going to achieve 100% condom use.
The people that are crazy enough and have the money are always
going to be willing to pay the extra money under the table to have
sex without a condom. The legalization of prostitution in Nevada
has not stopped there being illegal prostitutes who offer services,
like under age girls, condomless sex and the like that the legal
places won't offer. That would be the case in any state where
prostitution is legal. Unless you just legalize everything don't
try to control it at all, there is always going to be an
underground of people who want services that are not legal.
I agree that prostitution should be legal. But don't pretend that
legalizing it will lead to 100% condom use. That is just not
true.
Matt|1.12.08 @ 11:55AM|#
Another interesting finding of theirs is that self-employed protitutes work longer hours and make less money than those who work for pimps. Let's hear it for division of labor!
|1.12.08 @ 12:09PM|#
I think technology will make the condom issue wrt STDs a moot point. When a hooker whips out her instant test that will test for everything, she'll know whether she needs to wrap it or not. And the john will have one on hand too, if he knows what's good for him.
SIV|1.12.08 @ 12:09PM|#
you just legalize everything don't try to control it at
all
That would be the libertarian paleo-lib thing to
do.
|1.12.08 @ 12:36PM|#
Another interesting finding of theirs is that self-employed
protitutes work longer hours and make less money than those who
work for pimps.
Does that mean that if you get to keep all that you earn, you will
likely be more willing to put in extra hours? Duh!
vm|1.12.08 @ 12:37PM|#
"Good Catholics are prohibited from condom use as well as birth
control pills"
and for them brothel = behind the altar
[keed keeeeeeed]
Matt|1.12.08 @ 12:41PM|#
Does that mean that if you get to keep all that you earn,
you will likely be more willing to put in extra hours?
Duh!
No, the prostitutes's take-home wage was higher. It was written up
in the Chicago Tribune yesterday. I think it was an average workday
of 4.5 hours and $25/hr for self-employed and 4.1 hours and $37/hr
for a "pimp-assisted" prostitute. They make more money and work
less hours even after their pimp takes his cut.
|1.12.08 @ 12:43PM|#
It is truly amazing to me that something that is legal to do for a dinner, movie and drinks is illegal to do fo $100. I'm 51 years old and have yet to hear a rational justification for that trifling distinction.
|1.12.08 @ 12:48PM|#
Oh you horrible liberal types! I knew Reason was just a shill for big whores...
|1.12.08 @ 12:49PM|#
Uh, make that 52 years old. Alzheimer's?* Well, there is
hope.
*Insert lame open thread claim here.
|1.12.08 @ 12:54PM|#
Oh you horrible liberal types! I knew Reason was just a
shill for big whores...
Standard Libertarian Disclaimer (SLD) #2 (Libertarian does not mean
libertine) goes here. I really should gin up and post a definitive
list of those. Maybe when I'm extremely bored someday.
|1.12.08 @ 12:58PM|#
"In Nevada's legal brothels, condom use is 100 percent.
There's no "protection sex" for crooked cops or gang members, and
there hasn't been a single case of HIV since 1988."
I'd bet the incidence of minors plying the trade in legal brothels
is next to nil as well.
I agree that prostitution should be legal. But don't pretend
that legalizing it will lead to 100% condom use. That is just not
true.
I don't think anybody's suggesting that there will be 100% condom
use among street prostitutes who are working in areas where
prostitution is illegal. ...or that there won't be kids working the
street.
I think the suggestion is that where legalization seems to minimize
those things criminalization doesn't. ...AND criminalization seems
to add more opportunity for law enforcement and gangs to abuse sex
workers.
penxv|1.12.08 @ 1:05PM|#
Prostitution is cool and all.
But fornicating is actually a lot more fun when the woman wants to
have sex with you back.
D.A. Ridgely|1.12.08 @ 1:25PM|#
N.B. -- From the actual working paper, the authors (1) "find a
small price premium associated with unprotected sex, and
condoms are used only 25 percent of the time" (In fact, their data
suggests that the unprotected sex premium to be on average only $2)
and (2) that [only] "prostitutes who do not work with
pimps (and thus are working the streets), roughly three
percent of all their tricks are freebies given to police." Emphasis
added.
Fair's fair -- Levitt and Venkatesh stress that the paper is
tentative and incomplete. Still, several other interesting points
are worth noting. First, the sort of pimp / prostitute relationship
they study is contrary to the stereotype and much closer to the
agent / talent model. Second, (and speaking as a white guy here,
I'm shocked, shocked to discover that) Chicago prostitutes
discriminate on the basis of race, charge white tricks more and
"change the structure of the bargaining when the customer is not
black."
So far, no comment from the Ron Paul campaign on this last finding,
but I haven't received the latest newsletter yet, so....
|1.12.08 @ 1:26PM|#
"In Nevada's legal brothels, condom use is 100 percent.
There's no "protection sex" for crooked cops or gang members, and
there hasn't been a single case of HIV since 1988."
That fact sums up why prohibition of voluntary, non-violent,
exchanges of goods and services between two consenting adults is
out and out wrong. It doesn't matter if we're talking sex or drugs,
prohibition is wrong.
|1.12.08 @ 1:40PM|#
It doesn't matter if we're talking sex or drugs, prohibition
is wrong.
I agree with you. Trouble is, I don't know why any more! heh.
|1.12.08 @ 1:54PM|#
About the only problem with "legalized" prostitution in Nevada,
is a very specific anti-market basis in the law.
Technically prostitution is not legal per se in Nevada, but
"pimping" is. The "upside" is that there is no blackmarket in
no-condom sex, but the male monopoly on controlling the market is
pretty much unassailable.
It is this single fact that I have found the pro-sex liberal
factions most object to (preventing an alliance with sex workers
that could carry the model and offer market protections to
prostitutes around the country), and one I find objectionable as a
believer in the market.
Nothing wrong with having brothels run exclusively by men, if it
were a market decision, but it is not, it is one enforced by men
with guns (police). Now, if Nevada would actually open the market
to not just legalized pimping by men, but allowing independent
actors to actually market their skill set, it would become a market
affair and a model worth supporting.
Paul|1.12.08 @ 1:56PM|#
Pimpin' ain't easy.
But it's necessary...
Chasin' them ho's like Tom chases...Jerry.
Paul|1.12.08 @ 1:57PM|#
prostitutes to always use condoms create a black market for
condom-free sex?
Yeah, they have to go back to their wives.
Paul|1.12.08 @ 1:59PM|#
Actually, Levitt finds that payment doesn't go up much when
condoms are not used ($2 dollar premium for oral, $6 for vaginal,
$13 for anal).
I thought condom use was 100%?
The Wine Commonsewer|1.12.08 @ 2:02PM|#
It is truly amazing to me that something that is legal to do
for a dinner, movie and drinks is illegal to do fo $100.
Oh, I see, you're one of THOSE guys that expects the chick to go
down as a reward for a nice dinner and a couple of dates. Sexist.
Pig.
Better not ever run for president.
Melissa Farley|1.12.08 @ 2:08PM|#
I just finished a 2.5 year study of prostitution and trafficking
in Nevada. It is way naive to assume that condoms are always used
in brothels. Women who can talk freely, once OUT of the legal
brothels, tell us that while the party/pimp line is put forth, in
practice, women often perform to johns' specifications: without a
condom, just as they do in India and Mexico and in illegal US
prostitution.
Melissa Farley
Prostitution and Trafficking in Nevada: Making the
Connections
www.nevadacoalition.org
thoreau|1.12.08 @ 2:09PM|#
It's fascinating that only 5% of tricks go to protection. If
they were in the legal market, a substantially larger portion of
income would go to taxes.
The benefits of operating above ground are considerable, of course,
but it is interesting that the black market only has a 5% tax
rate.
|1.12.08 @ 2:21PM|#
I'm skeptical about the self-reported wages of pimped versus
non-pimped prostitutes, because every now and then people have been
known to lie about sex. And were these questions asked with the
pimp in the room?
"So, how much does your pimp let you keep?"
Whore sporting a black eye. "Keep? I get to ke ..."
* Stinkeye from pimp, who's idly trimming fingernails with a very
large knife
"Oh, yeah, I get to keep some, er, MOST of what I earn. Umm, yeah,
that's how it works."
|1.12.08 @ 2:28PM|#
"It is truly amazing to me that something that is legal to
do for a dinner, movie and drinks is illegal to do fo $100.
Oh, I see, you're one of THOSE guys that expects the chick to go
down as a reward for a nice dinner and a couple of dates. Sexist.
Pig.
Better not ever run for president."
No, no, we're all totally cool cosmotarians here. No expectations
whatsoever on a date -- they don't want to put out, cool, had a
good time. It's just that when it's time to go on a SECOND date,
that marketplace kicks in, and given two equally hot and pleasant
women available to date, do you go out with the one who gave you
head, or the one who was saving herself for marriage?
Or do you, like, hate a free marketplace.
(Disclosure: I'd prefer a good Mormon girl who held out for
marriage -- in the Temple -- but I'm not a cosmotarian.)
|1.12.08 @ 2:36PM|#
Oh, I see, you're one of THOSE guys that expects the chick
to go down as a reward for a nice dinner and a couple of dates.
Sexist. Pig.
TWC, you totally misunderstand me. I was describing what I expect
prior to proving my "LOVE SEVICES".
|1.12.08 @ 2:45PM|#
Men will pay more to have sex with a prostitute without using a
condom? Boggles the mind. Now, I love prostitution, think it should
be legal, blah blah blah, but c'mon guys, they're prostitutes. I'd
pay more to WEAR a condom.
Reminds me of the time we deployed to Thailand for Cobra Gold...one
guy came back from town swearing he'd just gone down on a
prostitute. The rest of us said "Uhm, yeah, that's nice" and
quickly changed the subject.
|1.12.08 @ 2:50PM|#
It's just that when it's time to go on a SECOND date, that
marketplace kicks in, and given two equally hot and pleasant women
available to date, do you go out with the one who gave you head, or
the one who was saving herself for marriage?
I wonder what percentage of the male members of this forum have
ever been faced with that dilemma...
D.A. Ridgely|1.12.08 @ 3:11PM|#
I'm inclined to agree with Ms Farley that any claim of 100%
condom use in legal brothels is, to put it mildly, unbelievable.
(Farley, btw, is an activist whose grasp of the concept of "fact"
seems a bit slippery to me. Kudos to her, nonetheless, for posting
here.)
The link Mr. Balko cites is a study of condom breakage and slippage
and the claim of 100% usage there wasn't the issue. (Irrelevant
aside, the linked summary states "Used condoms were collected to
verify reported breaks visually." And I thought my
graduate research assignments were unpleasant!)
Study or no study, law or no law, the notion that no prostitutes in
legal brothels are ever willing to forgo condom use for some
negotiated premium is absurd. But that's the nub of the point. Are
such women voluntarily assuming risk in return for greater
compensation or not? Almost certainly the answer is sometimes yes,
sometimes no.
|1.12.08 @ 3:13PM|#
It's just that when it's time to go on a SECOND date, that
marketplace kicks in, and given two equally hot and pleasant women
available to date, do you go out with the one who gave you head, or
the one who was saving herself for marriage?
I wonder what percentage of the male members of this forum have
ever been faced with that dilemma...
If the mother's-basement-dwelling stereotype is at all true,
perhaps none. ;)
Seriously, before I met my wife, I was on this decade-long dry
streak. Couldn't get a date to save my life. Then I placed a
personals ad in a swinging weekly (IIRC, the Seattle Weekly) and
suddenly I could go on two or three blind dates a day if I was that
masochistic. Once went on 8 blind dates in 7 days -- never again.
Man needs some downtime.
Met Ms. Prolefeed on date #70 or so.
kris|1.12.08 @ 3:29PM|#
what kind of idiot has sex with a hooker and doesn't wear a condom? ENJOY YOUR AIDS BUDDY.
|1.12.08 @ 3:50PM|#
what kind of idiot has sex with a hooker and doesn't wear a
condom? ENJOY YOUR AIDS BUDDY.
Actually a circumcised male having vaginal sex with an HIV positive
female will likely NOT result in him cotracting the virus. Of
course, walking acroos the street without looking will likely NOT
result in getting hit by a car. I prudently still look. Both
ways.
Sam Grove|1.12.08 @ 4:05PM|#
Good Catholics are prohibited from condom use...
They are only prohibited from using condoms as birth control...not
for disease prevention.
Robert|1.12.08 @ 4:12PM|#
I'm disappointed that a Reason blogger would project the
politically-correct idea that condomless sex is bad per se, which
is akin to the idea that getting high is bad per se.
As Heinlein wrote disapprovingly, "Sex without touching!"
|1.12.08 @ 4:52PM|#
Oh, I see, you're one of THOSE guys that expects the chick
to go down as a reward for a nice dinner and a couple of dates.
Sexist. Pig.
Better not ever run for president.
Tom Leykis for President.
|1.12.08 @ 4:55PM|#
A skinny, nerdy kid I know had a helluva time getting laid, in the 50s. We were still in the Sexual Evolution as defined by Hucklebuckle.
|1.12.08 @ 5:26PM|#
What some of you free-market geniuses seem to have a hard time
understanding is that woman are human beings, not commodities. Like
it or not, we decided long ago in America that buying and selling
people is abhorrent and illegal. When a pimp sells a woman's mouth
and vagina to a john, it is a violation of her human rights.
Leaving aside the obvious public health problems involved in a
woman giving 10 blowjobs a day without a condom (not good for her,
not good for him) there should be some consideration give to the
humanity of the situation.
Would you consider giving 10 blowjobs a day to be a an acceptable
job for you? For your son? For your daughter?
Even if it paid at least mininum wage, and even if you got free
medical treatment, and even if there wasn't a violent pimp taking
half your money and threatening to kill your kids if you stop. Even
then you probably would find it to be a horrifying existence.
Brandybuck|1.12.08 @ 5:31PM|#
I just finished a 2.5 year study of prostitution and trafficking in Nevada. It is way naive to assume that condoms are always used in brothels. Women who can talk freely, once OUT of the legal brothels, tell us that while the party/pimp line is put forth, in practice, women often perform to johns' specifications: without a condom, just as they do in India and Mexico and in illegal US prostitution.
But I suspect it's still low. I recall and interview with one legal
prostitute who says they'll turn in others who don't require
condoms, because an STD can travel very quickly through a brothel.
The pimp/madam is also listening in on the negotiations, making it
harder to cheat.
The "safer sex than with your girlfriend" line is common among the
classier Nevada brothels, and is a definite draw. Part of the
reason there still so many street prostitutes is that brothels are
only legal in limited areas, and need to be licensed. There are
only a limited number of legal job opportunities in the
industry.
|1.12.08 @ 6:03PM|#
Even if it paid at least mininum wage, and even if you got
free medical treatment, and even if there wasn't a violent pimp
taking half your money and threatening to kill your kids if you
stop. Even then you probably would find it to be a horrifying
existence.
Fred makes some excellent points. They're just fragile, childlike
beings that need protected at all times. If a woman thought that
performing fellatio was less taxing and more rewarding than her job
at the foundry, she's just unimformed about the realities of the
world's oldest profession. If she argued that she could take
precautions against STDs but feared lung cancer as a result of her
present workplace, she's just being hysterical. And we all know the
etymology of that word.
This book is obviously full of half truths, fabrications and
downright lies. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it turned out to
have been written by a man or that Xaviera Hollander ended up as a
streetwalking crack
whore.
|1.12.08 @ 6:40PM|#
As a former cop, I find it very hard to believe that many officers partake of the prostitutes services. Most are drug addicts who you wouldn't want to touch without safety gloves. Do the authors say how they arrived at that number?
Christopher Rasch|1.12.08 @ 6:45PM|#
When a pimp sells a woman's mouth and vagina to a john, it
is a violation of her human rights.
Yet, curiously, I'd wager you have no problems with a singer
selling her vocal cords for entertainment, or a football player
selling his body for sport. Why don't you consider singing or
professional football violations of their rights?
Would you consider giving 10 blowjobs a day to be a an
acceptable job for you? For your son? For your daughter?
It would depend on who I was giving head to, and how much I got
paid. Clearly, women who give 10 blowjobs a day prefer it to their
alternatives, or else they would already be doing those
alternatives.
Thus, by making prostitution more costly due to the risk of
imprisonment, you condemn those women to jobs that are, by their
own lights, worse than giving 10 blowjobs a day.
if there wasn't a violent pimp taking half your money and
threatening to kill your kids if you stop.
And if busybodies didn't use the power of the state to enforce
archaic religious dogma, prostitutes could turn to the police for
protection, and wouldn't need pimps to begin with.
Nevada Police Officer|1.12.08 @ 6:51PM|#
"The legalization of prostitution in Nevada has not stopped
there being illegal prostitutes who offer services, like under age
girls, condomless sex and the like that the legal places won't
offer."
You wouldn't happen to know where these prostitutes are offering
these services, would you? I mean, to arrest them of course...
|1.12.08 @ 6:53PM|#
"Would you consider giving 10 blowjobs a day to be a an
acceptable job for you? For your son? For your daughter? "
Better or worse that working at Cato?
Gahan|1.12.08 @ 7:17PM|#
"...I find it very hard to believe that many officers partake of
the prostitutes services. Most are drug addicts who you wouldn't
want to touch without safety gloves."
...and the prostitutes are even worse.
The Wine Commonsewer|1.12.08 @ 7:18PM|#
err, make that SERVICES.
OK, if you make that drinks instead of dates. :-)
The Wine Commonsewer|1.12.08 @ 7:24PM|#
Would you consider giving 10 blowjobs a day to be a an
acceptable job for you? For your son? For your daughter?
No, I don't. Times 3.
But that's irrelevant, because my personal likes and dislikes
aren't yours. Here's one:
Do you think it would be an acceptable job to have another guy beat
the crap out of you for 15 rounds every Saturday night until you
get brain damage? Well, I think that is the stupidest thing ever,
worse than turning tricks, because it assures brain damage and is
nothing but a glorification of violence and the whole idea is to
put the other guy's dick in the dirt by beating him
unconscious.
|1.12.08 @ 7:47PM|#
How the hell do you know there hasn't been a single case of HIV since 1988? That's one of the stupidest assertions I've heard in a while.
|1.12.08 @ 7:48PM|#
There's two legal brothels about a hour from Vegas, and a couple
more up Reno way, and the price is said to run $300 - $500
depending on what you negoiate.
That's what happens when the government gets into the business.
Would be the same with drugs, and more after the tort attorneys
started suing for damages and 'dose' control.
Legal vs illegal prostitution in Nevada is probably 1:10K
respectively, if that word applies.
|1.12.08 @ 8:17PM|#
I just don't understand why you can't charge for it yet you can give it to anybody??
Warmongering Lunatic|1.12.08 @ 8:20PM|#
SERJ -
In Nevada's legal brothels, monthly HIV tests are mandatory by law
for all prostitutes. Not one of these prostitutes has ever been
found to be HIV positive in the twenty years of testing. That's
"how the hell" he knows.
The Wine Commonsewer|1.12.08 @ 8:25PM|#
Think anyone knew I was talking about boxing? Would have been nice to actually say the word. Boxing. Boxing. The fights.
st4rbux|1.12.08 @ 8:42PM|#
for Fred:
Are you a
prostitute or a consultant?
"The difference between consultants and prostitutes is: There are
some things a prostitute won't do for money."
When my pimp manager sells my mouth and
vagina brain to a john client, is it a
violation of my human rights? I thought I was in a mutually
beneficial contractual arrangement -- oh who am I kidding, I've
been a victim for years.
Mr. Chartreuse|1.12.08 @ 9:03PM|#
Think anyone knew I was talking about boxing? Would have
been nice to actually say the word. Boxing. Boxing. The
fights.
I figured boxing or UFC. But you see, violence is always preferable
to sex in the minds of the do gooders. So being a boxer or UFCer is
fine, but legalized prostitute is not.
The Wine Commonsewer|1.12.08 @ 9:18PM|#
Dude!
Mr Green, er, Chartreuse, you were comment 69 on a HOOKER
POST!
You win, free 69. See Nick (no, not with him, he's making the
arrangements).
Condom not optional. Sorry.
The Wine Commonsewer|1.12.08 @ 9:19PM|#
oh who am I kidding, I've been a victim for
years.
fargin' wage slave, you.
Mr. Chartreuse|1.12.08 @ 9:20PM|#
lol! I think I may have to pass that off to #68, as my gf wouldn't approve :)
The Wine Commonsewer|1.12.08 @ 9:22PM|#
Robin, I don't understand why it's okay to pay somebody to have
sex while you watch the movie but it isn't okay to pay someone to
have sex with you.
For that matter, porn stars get paid to have sex with each other.
Why, oh why, is that not prostitution? Our legal system is
bizzare.
Juan|1.12.08 @ 9:31PM|#
Robin, I don't understand why it's okay to pay somebody to
have sex while you watch the movie but it isn't okay to pay someone
to have sex with you.
For that matter, porn stars get paid to have sex with each other.
Why, oh why, is that not prostitution? Our legal system is
bizzare.
Shhhhhhhhhh..... don't say that out loud, you'll give them ideas
about banning porn.
|1.12.08 @ 9:36PM|#
How does margin logic coincide with keeping up with the opportunity cost of a public health pandemic?
st4rbux|1.12.08 @ 9:39PM|#
I was #68, and my wife wouldn't approve either. #67 was you,
TWC. it's all yours.
as for the porn stars, I believe it's all... ACTING!! (GENIUS!!)
Thank YOU! (No, Thank YOU!)
so then their actors, not whores. unless maybe that's is in the
title.
penxv|1.12.08 @ 11:40PM|#
But that's irrelevant, because my personal likes and
dislikes aren't yours. Here's one:
Do you think it would be an acceptable job to have another guy beat
the crap out of you for 15 rounds every Saturday night until you
get brain damage? Well, I think that is the stupidest thing ever,
worse than turning tricks, because it assures brain damage and is
nothing but a glorification of violence and the whole idea is to
put the other guy's dick in the dirt by beating him
unconscious.
There's actually an art to it. It's honest and chicks dig it.
So... how depressing is tax consultation?
|1.12.08 @ 11:55PM|#
Prostitution should be 100% legal in America. Who cares if someone wants to make their living that way? It's just as honorable to me as working at McDonalds. Or at Microsoft. If you don't want to buy a prostitute don't buy one. It shouldn't even be an issue. America- land of the free. Let people be free as long as they're not taking rifles to other people.
hippy|1.12.08 @ 11:56PM|#
If you don't hurt a person or a person's property it shouldn't be a crime. Drugs is a better case for black markets and gangs. But of course prostitution should be legal. So should a lot of other things. No one should have the right to create laws based on personal morals.
jkii|1.13.08 @ 12:07AM|#
So... how depressing is tax consultation?
A tax consultant is about just as likely to have her pimp tune you
up as a prostitute would.
|1.13.08 @ 12:15AM|#
That sound you don't hear is Fred not typing a coherent response to criticisms of his previous post.
|1.13.08 @ 12:18AM|#
I see dj mentioned it, but Nevada is a bad example to use for determining the pros or cons of legalized prostitution. The two largest counties (by population) --Clark (Las Vegas), and Washoe (Reno), forbid prostitution. Most of the state lives in Clark County, and although Washoe is far smaller, you pretty much have the entire state population right there. Hence there are quite a few illegal streetwalkers in Reno, most likely due to convenience.
jkii|1.13.08 @ 12:37AM|#
The two largest counties (by population) --Clark (Las
Vegas), and Washoe (Reno), forbid prostitution.
Nevada only allows prostitution in counties with a population under
400,000.
Clark County, like other higher population counties, are blessed
with economic expansion and cursed by illiberal Californians
migrating there.
I still live in CA, but even so, I would still support a fifty-foot
tall, electrified, barbed-wire fence at CA-NV border. Just in case
I want to escape CA some day with someplace better to go.
|1.13.08 @ 1:21AM|#
"a prostitute is more likely to have sex with a police
officer than to get officially arrested by one."
Getting unofficially arrested costs extra.
|1.13.08 @ 2:39AM|#
When a pimp sells a woman's mouth and vagina to a john, it
is a violation of her human rights.
WTF? No one wants to buy a mouth or vagina - they just want to rent
them for awhile. Anyone who wants to buy them can get married.
Sheesh!
:-)
|1.13.08 @ 7:27AM|#
"But fornicating is actually a lot more fun when the woman wants
to have sex with you back."
You assume it's always either/or? Actually some prostitutes
occasionally like not only the money but the sex as well if it's
with a guy they like or think is cute and they haven't been working
too hard.
As for Fred, his problem is that he's created the worst possible
conditions for a prostitute in his head and then assumes that's the
norm. Some prostitutes don't work every day or don't have more than
one john a day, let alone do 10 blow jobs in one day.
But let's see, "would you let some poor slob work the phones
selling stocks 16 hours a day, in an office with no air
conditioning where outside temperatures were over 100 degrees and
where the boss regularly sprayed him with spit every time he chewed
him out for not making a sale?!!!"
Jason C|1.13.08 @ 8:55AM|#
Levitt's work is absolute trash based on "estimates" (wild ass
guesses) and "conclusions" (hearsay from criminals). His book was
designed to create controversy and thereby sell more copies. The
fact that you are quoting him, proves that he has succeeded.
How can you base YOUR theories on his half-ass research?
DavidS|1.13.08 @ 9:17AM|#
Levitt's work is absolute trash based on "estimates" (wild
ass guesses) and "conclusions" (hearsay from criminals)...How can
you base YOUR theories on his half-ass research?
Did you read the paper? Or are your remarks based on hearsay and
wild ass guesses?
Levitt's paper starts with a discussion of how challenging it is to
study "illicit behaviour."
His response is to combine various data sources with a two-year
study of 2,200 tricks performed by 160 prostitutes. This seems, on
the face of it, a fairly good way of trying to work out what's
going on.
Especially, when data on most of the tricks were "collected by our
trackers who stood on street corners or sat in brothels with
prostitutes, recording the information immediately after the
customer departed."
I am not saying this study is perfect, but it seems better than
"absolute trash."
Perhaps, Jason C, you know better... Or, maybe as a former cop, you
are simply cross that the police come out looking bad.
anonymous|1.13.08 @ 9:29AM|#
But fornicating is actually a lot more fun when the woman
wants to have sex with you back.
"The lap dance is better when the stripper is crying."
Apparently, it's a song lyric by the Bloodhound Gang. But I first
saw it as a regular sig at Cop
Talk about 6 or 7 years ago.
|1.13.08 @ 9:34AM|#
Commercial sex is still one of the last holds the old monopoly, of sex exclusively through marriage social contract, still has. We created legal serial polygamy and polyandry with no fault divorce in the 60s. In the 80s we introduced legalized 'consenting adults' by judicial decrees leading up to the Lawrence vs. Texas decision. Society has changed so much, its no longer men who are the tricks. [NOT SAFE FOR THE WORKPLACE] If you go to Eros on line and the selection for Las Vegas you'll find the advertising of 'women for women' running about a 2 to 5 ratio as that for 'women for men'. Your ability to impose such control over society is quickly deconstructing. Ultimately, such untapped revenue for taxing won't be passed up and will be regulated. It's only a matter of time, taxes you understand. It will be assimilated.
tomWright|1.13.08 @ 9:39AM|#
"It's fascinating that only 5% of tricks go to protection. If
they were in the legal market, a substantially larger portion of
income would go to taxes.
The benefits of operating above ground are considerable, of course,
but it is interesting that the black market only has a 5% tax
rate."
Dammit. I was gonna say that.
'course, I'm a day late anyway...
|1.13.08 @ 9:51AM|#
TO: Radley Balko, et al.
RE: Factoring Ins
We all know that there are advantages and disadvantages to every
possible position.
I'm getting a tad tired of the sort of arguments YOU, Radley,
provide above. A bit of information on one or two aspects. And a
lack of a whole lot of information on other aspects.
Who has ever done an honest compilation of all the advantages and
disadvantages of every known aspect of prostitution?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[What they are telling you could be important. What they are NOT
telling you could be vital.]
B.J. Clinton|1.13.08 @ 9:51AM|#
Oh, I see, you're one of THOSE guys that expects the chick
to go down as a reward for a nice dinner and a couple of dates.
Sexist. Pig.
Better not ever run for president.
Go ahead and run for president. Despite all of their rhetoric,
political feminists are a bunch of whores.
Nina Burleigh|1.13.08 @ 9:55AM|#
I would be happy to give him a blowjob just to thank him for keeping abortion legal. I think American women should be lining up with their presidential kneepads on to show their gratitude for keeping the theocracy off our backs.
J. Edgar Hoover|1.13.08 @ 9:57AM|#
I regret to say that we of the FBI are powerless to act in cases of oral-genital intimacy, unless it has in some way obstructed interstate commerce.
ewww, yuck|1.13.08 @ 9:58AM|#
Actually a circumcised male having vaginal sex with an HIV
positive female will likely NOT result in him cotracting the
virus.
Yeah, but there are plenty of other diseases ready to latch on to
the most treasured member of your body.
At any rate, for me the condom issue wouldn't be about just
disease. It's about the idea of sticking my thing where
god-knows-how-many-other guys have been sticking their sweaty,
smelly, nasty things. It's just kind of... shudders
tomWright|1.13.08 @ 10:04AM|#
OK, I just looked briefly at Melissa Farley's site and the link
she provided.
I could not get past the various titles on each page to actually
read the contents.
Both of those sites are like pro-life crisis-centers counseling on
abortion. Claim something in the name of your organization, yet
provide the agenda-laden opposite in practice.
Too bad there is no such thing as a dis-honesty filter for the net.
Of course that would filter out 90% of the non-porn websites. And
probably only 1% of the porn ones.
|1.13.08 @ 10:41AM|#
"As a former cop, I find it very hard to believe that many
officers partake of the prostitutes services. Most are drug addicts
who you wouldn't want to touch without safety gloves. Do the
authors say how they arrived at that number?"
I find it hard to believe that anybody would partake of
some of the street walkers I've seen in Hollywood, but there's a
market for green toothpaste...
There's a market for nipple rings!
DavidS|1.13.08 @ 11:02AM|#
On the pimp thing...
"Women who work with pimps are much less likely to be injured by
customers; one of the services
provided by pimps is protection. Pimps, however, hurt their
prostitutes enough to roughly equalize the number of injuries."
|1.13.08 @ 11:09AM|#
Leaving aside the obvious public health problems involved in
a woman giving 10 blowjobs a day without a condom...
So where exactly would she put the condom while doing this?
;-)
Sorry, I couldn't resist...
Stephen Rose|1.13.08 @ 11:16AM|#
I heard someone suggest compulsory reversible vasectomies at birth.
|1.13.08 @ 11:22AM|#
The problem with vices like prostitution, gambling and liquer is
that many times the government officials who want to legalize them
the schemes of legalization are almost as bad as the scolds who
want to ban them. For example, my father's town recently had a vote
to legalize casino gamglin. He voted against it, not because he is
anti-gambling but because the bill would have allowed one casino
run by one politically connected company, rather than letting
anyone with a bar or a restaurant run whatever game they want
subject to state regulation to ensure a fair game.
That is what happens in the case of vice. The impulse to 'legalize
it and control it' opens the whole thing up to the worst sort of
cronyism and government corruption. That is why the government is
out to get internet gambling sites. If it was really about stopping
gambling, the government wouldn't be legalizing casinos all over
the country. If it was really about revenue, they would enact some
kind of an internet tax on gambling proceeds. I am quite sure these
sites, even the ones overseas, would gladly fork over a few percent
of US earnings as protection money in return for not being hounded
by the Justice Department. But instead they try to shut them down.
Why? Because it is about protecting the government sponsored
monopoly. You can see the same things going on in the states'
crusade against mail order wine.
I suspect the same thing would happen if a large number of states
legalized prostitution. You would get one or two government
sponsored brothels that would in no way meet the demand and a
government crusade against every woman who tried to compete with
the government sponsored monopoly. It is really pretty damn
hopeless.
|1.13.08 @ 11:30AM|#
"That is what happens in the case of vice. The impulse to
'legalize it and control it' opens the whole thing up to the worst
sort of cronyism and government corruption."
I don't know about that...
"I suspect the same thing would happen if a large number of
states legalized prostitution. You would get one or two government
sponsored brothels that would in no way meet the demand and a
government crusade against every woman who tried to compete with
the government sponsored monopoly. It is really pretty damn
hopeless."
If the alternative is more minors in the business, more diseases
being spread around, more prostitutes being abused by law
enforcement and gang members, I think I'd rather deal with the
problem of opening up government monopolies to competition.
The Wine Commonsewer|1.13.08 @ 11:36AM|#
There's actually an art to it. It's honest and chicks dig
it.
Course there is, but the larger point is not to bash boxing, but to
point out that my opinion of the merits of boxing is not grounds to
ban boxing as violent, dangerous, unhealthy for the participants,
or simply because some people find it as morally repugnant as say,
bull fighting, which is illegal.
For the record, I'm using hyperbole to illustrate, I don't feel all
that strongly about boxing.
|1.13.08 @ 11:41AM|#
I think the biggest problem is PR.
I've noticed a lot of prostitutes walking the streets of Oceanside
over the years, not something you generally see anywhere else in
North County. I've long suspected that the aberration might be due
to the city's proximity to the Marine base at Camp Pendleton, but
maybe I'm wrong.
If I'm right, then I suspect it would be better for everybody, the
Marines, the City of Oceanside, the police department, the sex
workers and just about everybody else if they had legal brothels to
go to. It's just that there's an awful lot of prudes out there who
just can't accept the idea that people are getting laid so close to
a Marine base.
Like it's a bible camp or something.
The Wine Commonsewer|1.13.08 @ 11:47AM|#
So... how depressing is tax consultation?
penxv, LOL. Excellent point and during the course of 'tax season' I
often get really pissed when I see how much tax some people are
forced to pay. And how looney the laws are.
Best part: I get to help regular people figure out legit ways to
reduce Uncle Sugar's tax bite.
Every time I find a little tax break (or a big one) for somebody I
feel like Jack Black sticking it to the man.
My motto is that it isn't the government's money in the first place
and anything you can do to reduce the tribute is a good
thing.
Secondly, every dime you paid in tax last year is gone. In less
time than you took to read this, it is flushed. And whether you are
liberal, conservative, libertarian, a government employee, or a
soccer mom, the government is spending your money on stuff you
don't like.
Best to give them as little as legally possible.
|1.13.08 @ 12:19PM|#
i wouldn't be surprised to find a correlation in the numbers between Johns who want condom-free sex with prostitutes and the number of insane folks in society as a whole. If not perhaps we need to redefine our definition of insane a bit.
|1.13.08 @ 2:04PM|#
There are so many comments, so maybe someone said this, but the reason that legal prostitutes cannot afford to have sex without condoms is easy: they can't get an STD, or I think they don't work anymore. At least that was my understanding, and I know that porn stars get regularly tested, too. If a prostitute got infected, she would have to quit, presumably.
|1.13.08 @ 2:18PM|#
What some of you free-market geniuses seem to have a hard time understanding is that woman are human beings, not commodities. Like it or not, we decided long ago in America that buying and selling people is abhorrent and illegal. When a pimp sells a woman's mouth and vagina to a john, it is a violation of her human rights.
Your life must be so miserable. Obviously you don't have a job
because that's worker exploitation. When your manager sells your
labor to a client, it's a violation of your human rights. There's
no voluntary agreement. You do your job against your will. You're
just a poor 'ol abused guy!
Dan King|1.13.08 @ 2:30PM|#
To read more about prostitution and sex tourism, albeit with a libertarian bent, check out "Naked in Haiti: A Sexy Morality Tale about Tourists, Prostitutes & Politicians".
Aaron|1.13.08 @ 7:28PM|#
But doesn't forcing legal prostitutes to always use condoms
create a black market for condom-free sex? I mean, the libertarian
line is that when you try to ban something people want to buy,
they'll just buy it on the black market, and your stats show that
people definitely want condom-free sex.
There's a second layer of incentivization here that you're not
taking into account. In Nevada, at least, going to the brothel and
using a condom means a guarantee that you will not have your name
published in the paper or your picture put on TV (as some cities do
to combat prostitution), will not be fined or end up in jail, will
not get a criminal record and will not end up humiliating your
loved ones. (Also, it means you're a lot less likely to be mugged
by the prostitute, etc.)
Avoiding that risk is likely quite a lot more valuable than the
perceived value of not having to wear a condom. However, if both
are illegal and forced into the black market, then the incentive to
obey the law is gone. Similarly, that the law provides what is
essentially a competitive "arms treaty" for prostitutes strongly
incentivizes them to stay off the black market and stay safe: They
can have a job and make money without having to negotiate with
every other fool who wants to do it bareback.
|1.13.08 @ 7:33PM|#
Think anyone knew I was talking about boxing? Would have
been nice to actually say the word. Boxing. Boxing. The
fights.
TWC -- at first I thought you were going for a comparison between
prostitution versus being raped by a violent, abusive husband, with
prostitution being a far better "career choice". Until your comment
above, I was wondering if that was a wonderfully clever case of
misdirection, followed by an abrupt segue.
Or maybe you're about two steps ahead of me on wryness today.
Dunno.
penxv|1.13.08 @ 9:28PM|#
For the record, I'm using hyperbole to illustrate, I don't
feel all that strongly about boxing.
I didn't think that you were. Just a difference of opinion about
fighting is all. I happen to think that it is natural and
healthy.
|1.13.08 @ 11:47PM|#
Legalizing prostitution would have quite a few
benefits--particularly because it would help protect
prostitutes.
Quite a few cases where serial killers have "concentrated" on
prostitutes. Doubt that would happen if the killer had to sign his
name in at a brothel to get access to his victim.
Of course, I bet the libertarians will now scream about
"unwarranted supervision"....
The Wine Commonsewer|1.13.08 @ 11:56PM|#
Grump, I hear that, my pet peeve in life is that Texas paroled a guy that brutally killed his baby in cold blood. 10 years into a 70 year sentence those dorks paroled him on good behavior. He came to my town and killed dozens of hookers before he was finally caught. If it was legal, he wouldn't have been doing them in the van where he snuffed them. Jesus Chrysler.
Pearl|1.14.08 @ 4:50AM|#
According to a CDC study some years back, only 3% of STIs were
transmitted among prostitutes. The majority, they found, were
transmitted among sexually active young adults between the ages of
18 and 25. One is far more likely to contract an STI from your
average avenue of getting laid: by going to your local nightclub
and picking up a willing participant.
Sex workers, like athletes, have a vested interest in keeping their
bodies in the best health possible. It is their livelihood, after
all.
Of course, when people think of transactional sex, they typically
think of the subjects of Levitt's study, who may or may not have a
vested interest n their own health.
However, street-based work accounts for only 10% of the industry
here in the US. The rest takes place indoors and out of sight by
escorts, courtesans, massage workers, and brothel workers. All of
whom are best served by being as healthy as possible so as to
ensure uninterrupted work time.
As such, one is clearly safer pursuing transactional sex with a
professional.
jack fiasco|1.14.08 @ 7:06AM|#
sure legalizing prostitution and enforcing condom use may create a black market for unsafe sex, but it's better than the current black market (which includes both safe and unsafe sex).. it's not like there's any way to ever eradicate unsafe sex - prostition aside - people are having condomless sex with strangers they meet in bars and on craigslist (without exchanging any money) every day!
anonymous|1.14.08 @ 8:36AM|#
Instead of legalizing prostitution, the police should escalate their efforts, and use SWAT teams instead.
Rookie|1.14.08 @ 10:24AM|#
A 'black market' for condom free sex? Sure it feels better but I don't think entire organizations would spring up for it. Sex is sex and sex with a condom is only a detail when considering the fact that makeing it legal provides you with much better looking and sane women than if it were illegal.
Anonymous|1.14.08 @ 11:39AM|#
Dang we should make murder legal too, then no one would break the law killing people.
Scooby|1.14.08 @ 12:05PM|#
If I couldn't tell the difference between laws against murder and laws against prostitution, I'd want to remain anonymous, too.
Rich Hudson|1.14.08 @ 12:47PM|#
We're supposedly engaged in the "battle of a lifetime" -- the war on terror -- yet we devote a sizable chunk of our domestic law-enforcement resources to cracking down on a victimless crime in which guys are willing to offer money to the service provider instead of the traditional "dinner, movie, and drink" route, as someone wrote.
Rich Hudson|1.14.08 @ 12:53PM|#
I once heard an undercover police officer engaged in john-busting sting justify her actions by saying that the johns could otherwise be taking STDs home to their wives. Well if that's the goal then why not criminalize adultery, too? But then I don't think the thrice-divorced family-values crowd would go for that one.
Rich Hudson|1.14.08 @ 12:56PM|#
One a related note, there's a brothel in Prague where you can
sleep with a prostitute for free, provided you're willing to have
your encounter broadcast on the Internet:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=a6C0QuB5G6Ys
The Wine Commonsewer|1.14.08 @ 1:31PM|#
Rich, I know this thread is expiring to death soon, but your
comment reminded me of something. Mrs TWC's sis is a social worker
whose job it is to determine if certain individuals are mentally
capable of standing trial.
One of her charges was arrested after a female cop offered him
money for sex. This guy is homeless, has no hands, a horrific skin
infection, and an IQ of about 80. He was hungry so he said he'd
take the money to have sex with the nice lady waving a twenty in
his face.
Your tax dollars at work regards, TWC
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