Could Ron Beat Rudy Twice?

Whodda' thunk that after all the hullabaloo following the debate exchange below from seven months ago that Ron Paul would be in a position to beat Rudy Giuliani in both Iowa and New Hampshire?

Today's Des Moines Register poll, which Slate says other pollsters consider "by far the most reliable," has Paul nearly doublng Giuliani in Iowa. Meanwhile, conventional wisdom says Paul's cadre of cell phone-toting college students and new voters will enable him to finish well above where he's polling at the moment in New Hampshire. The latest New Hampshire poll shows Paul just two points behind Giuliani. And that's an ARG poll, which thus far into the campaign has tended to show the least amount of support for Paul.

Looks like third place in Iowa, New Hampshire, or both isn't at all out of the question. Neither is beating Giuliani in one or both. Pretty remarkable, really. The anti-war candidate mocked and chuckled at in the debate below may well knock off the war-supporting 9/11 superhero—in the Republican primaries.

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  • ||

    Go Ron Paul!!

  • Dale in Oklahoma||

    Ron Paul is my hero! Please don't waste your vote on the generic pro-war candidates that Rupert Murdoch and other media moguls want you to choose from.

    Choose Freedom, Liberty, and Less power for the Federal Government. End the IRS and replace it with NOTHING!

    Bring our Men and Women who have taken oaths to defend our Constitution and Liberties with their lives home where they belong. No more undeclared wars to protect our oil tycoons interest.

    Have Faith in God, not your Government.

    WWW.RonPaul2008.com

  • ||

    Rudy is depending on Florida...where the last two elections were stolen. Good Luck Rudy, you'll need it.

  • Louis Nardozi||

    The dollar slid across the board on Friday as data showing a 9 percent decline in sales of new U.S. homes last month heightened concern about the economy, putting the greenback on track for its worst week in more than a year.
    The housing report, which was weaker than economists had expected, also bolstered the case for more Federal Reserve interest rate cuts in 2008. Earlier this week, the S&P/Case-Shiller index showed a record decline in U.S. home prices in October.

    This is what's happening to YOUR house. All the 'money' and 'equity' you thought you had saved - eliminated! The equity through falling house prices - and the money because we are DEBASING OUR CURRENCY. That low fed rate you're reading about gets created by printing money and lending it to people. With more money, the money YOU have is worth LESS. So your money is worth less and your property is worth less - where can you turn to keep ahead of inflation? I think you BETTER turn to Dr. Paul. He's the ONLY one running that has a HOPE of being able to deal with this.

  • ||

    "Looks like third place in Iowa, New Hampshire, or both isn't at all out of the question. Neither is beating Giuliani in one or both."

    I'm not gonna crow 'til those chickens are hatched, but gee I hope you're right!

  • stoneymonster||

    Sadly (or happily, depending on your perspective), I think this says more about Rudolph than Ronald.

    -C

  • ||

    As I've read here before:

    Ron Paul keeps infecting me with this horrible, horrible optimism!

  • ||

    "Florida...where the last two elections were stolen."

    No. At least, there aren't really any facts supporting that statement. Just innuendo.

    I think Paul will do well in Florida, especially if he's still a serious contender when our primaries occur. Paul signs and supporters are still the only ones with any visibility in the Tampa Bay area, at least. I still plan to vote for him.

  • ||

    Ron Paul keeps infecting me with this horrible, horrible optimism!

    Awesome; did I start a meme?

  • ||

    If Paul does finish third in either IA or NH, it should generate enough of those "getting familiar with the phenomenon" media pieces to expose him to critical mass among America's dissatisfied ex-electorate.

    Some may argue that the media will just use this opportunity to flip the bozo bit for their viewers, but I don't think that's going to be effective this time.

    They've already done somewhat of a drive-by on Paul, featuring prominently at one time or another that he's taken money from racists, or that he thinks Lincoln screwed up in the Civil War, etc. Most people who've been paying attention know what he is already.

    But there must be still a significant number of people who are markedly pro-freedom, who have given up on this political process, and no longer participate, yet who could still be brought back by the prospect of someone truly destructive to the existing corrupt order.

    Someone with a shot, that is.

  • Ali||

    Where is Eric Dondero?

  • ||

    The MSM is in love with McCan't, and keep shilling for his broken pony express. It looks like he may be attracting some of the 'independent' vote. Where's Matt Welch when you need him?

  • ||

    Superficially, this is nice, but let's face it--Ron would get crushed by Rudy in a head-to-head Republican primary.

  • Edward||

    Ron Paul won't come close to finishing third in Iowa, but he'll always be first in the addled brains of his nitwit supporters. That's what counts.

  • Stephen The Goldberger||

    Ron Paul at the very least has made the party sincerly doubt the course it and the country has been taking. He's done America a great service and I hope he doesn't give up to the very end. But lets be honest, 3rd place in both of those states (especially since NH is THE STATE he had to win) is not all that special. He is a "cult" candidate and the cult is not growing fast enough to make as big of an impact I hoped.

  • Ali||

    Stephen-

    I have heard it somewhere that the goal is actually to be among the top three in both states. This means that if he'd perform better then Thompson, Rudy and/or McCain, then people would start getting more seriously interest in Paul. As others fade away, hopefully he'll be the only standing candidate. Lets see how things play out.

  • Bingo||

    Were you their on 9/11?? I dont think so... Rudy was and he is Americas mayor. He deserves the presidency.

  • ||

    An idea for a YouTube video after Iowa and new Hampshire (if Paul actually beats Giuliani): a clip of Giuliani cackling at Paul during the debate with a superimposed text that reads: Who's laughing now, Rudy?

  • ||

    I'm a peaceful anarchist who will never vote. That said, I'm encouraged at what seems to be an increasing percent of citizens willing to reject the establishment offerings.

  • ||

    David, vote for Paul, at least this time.

    About the "Evolution" issue, this is what he REALLY said:

    "'Well, at first I thought it was a very inappropriate question, you know, for the presidency to be decided on a scientific matter, and I think it's a theory, a theory of evolution, and I don't accept it, you know, as a theory, but I think [it probably doesn't bother me. It's not the most important issue for me to make the difference in my life to understand the exact origin. I think] the Creator that I know created us, everyone of us, and created the universe, and the precise time and manner, I just don't think we're at the point where anybody has absolute proof on either side. [So I just don't...if that were the only issue, quite frankly, I would think it's an interesting discussion, I think it's a theological discussion, and I think it's fine, and we can have our...if that were the issue of the day, I wouldn't be running for public office.']"

    (The text in the brackets is what was edited out from that (in)famous video that Reason Magazine's 'Hit & Run' used to criticize Paul on this issue. Looks a LOT different, does it not? Basically he's saying: "It's not important right now, so can we move on?"

  • joe||

    Quite right, Ali. Paul is the first people-powered candidate the Republicans have had (as opposed to candidates whose backing comes from the "usual suspect" big donors, office-holders, and party people.

    If an establishment candidate isn't in the top tier, their money dries up, and that's about it for their campaign, but that's not how people-powered candidates work.

    What you just described was Jerry Brown in 1992. Now, imagine if something really bad had happened to or come out about Bill Clinton two months before the convention. All of the other challengers were gone by that point, but Brown was still viable.

  • ||

    Guiliani, you're about to get pwned. xcore pwned.

  • ericbl||

    My sense is that Ron Paul will finish no forth in Iowa, beating Giuliani and Thompson and the finish now lower than third in New Hampshire, beating everyone but Romney and McCain.

    The last poll I saw showed no clear leader in South Carolina.

    He will be competitive in Nevada and he will probably win Alaska.

    Beyond that, we'll see.

  • Eric Dondero||

    Uh-oh, Ron Paul just got caught in a major flip-flop on Border Security.

    Seems in 1988 he answered a CNN questionaire saying he wanted to absolish the Border Patrol.

    Contrast that with his current tough on immigration TV ad.

  • Eric Dondero||

    Rudy Giuliani, Mitt Romney and Fred Thompson have virtually the same Economic Conservative constituency. Mitt's gonna do well in Iowa and New Hampshire. Fred will do well in South Carolina. Rudy will do well in Florida and California.

    But you add them all up and you get a whopping percentage in the GOP primaries, far more than the fiscally liberal populist Huckabee, the Centrist McCain, and the Lyndon Larouchie conspiracy theory candidate Ron Paul.

    The GOP will nominate an Economic Conservative. Most likely Rudy or Mitt. Sadly, Fred doesn't seem to have much of a chance right now.

    BTW, if Fred does drop out, look for all of his supporters to go to Mitt and Rudy. Maybe a few going to McCain? But definitely NOT Ron Paul or Huckabee.

  • ||

    "Seems in 1988 he answered a CNN questionaire saying he wanted to absolish the Border Patrol."

    The difference between 1988 and now is 20 years. 20 years of welfare programs, additional benefits given to illegal immigrants. I think, just maybe, that things might have changed enough in 20 years to warrant a re-evaluation.Perhaps there are now DOMESTIC enemies of the constitution as well?

    What is this infatuation with never changing? The only things we're not supposed to change are the inalienable rights that no one can ever take from us.

    I don't agree with the anti-immigration ad, but I still plan to vote for the man. If we ended the welfare (including corporate welfare), the border discussion will play itself out.

    Until then, is this ANY reason to continue on with a fake Bible thumping zealot or a pro-war power grabber?

    No - Ron Paul is still the best choice for me.

  • ||

    Seems in 1988 he answered a CNN questionaire saying he wanted to absolish (sic) the Border Patrol.

    20 years ago he said one thing, and now he has a different position? 20 years? That's a flip-flop?

    Weak. Very weak.

  • ||

    Eric,

    I've seen Ron Paul say on multiple occasions that he has changed his views on immigration since 1988 and why. His current views date back to at least 2002, long before he decided to run for President.

    Also, the accusation is that "Back in 1988 Paul filled out a CNN questionaire that called for the elimination of the Border patrol. The BP would be replaced by the Armed Forces. He disputes this claim."

    If you're going to mention that he wanted to eliminate the Border Patrol, you should include the part about replacing them with the Armed Forces. Of course, that would make it less effective as a smear tactic.

    BTW, how many issue "flip-flops" has your man Rudi done?

  • ||

    I love those "conventional wisdom says he'll get much more than he's actually polling" stories. They're almost never accurate.

    Frankly, I'll be surprised if Rep. Paul gets anything above 4% in New Hampshire. Anyhow, his campaign will be officially dead in the water after Super-Duper Tuesday. Then, all the libertarians can come home and support a *real* libertarian candidate - the candidate of the Libertarian Party.

  • ||

    "let's face it--Ron would get crushed by Rudy in a head-to-head Republican primary."

    I think you underestimate how many Republicans would welcome the abolition of the IRS.

    -jcr

  • Bingo||

    rah62:

    Sorry, Giuliani is the only mainstream libertarian candidate for me! Thanks Eric Dondero for showing me the true light of the libertarian path.

  • bob||

    My best guess is that Ron Paul will place 2nd behind Huck in Iowa. Depending on the weather and the efficiency of his NH ground forces in turning out voters, he's got a shot at winning there.

    But it really doesn't matter.

    Paul could sweep IA and NH and his critics would still belittle his popularity. He'd probably get more press coverage if he bombed rather than won.

    It'll take more than a few good showings in primaries before the lamestream media recognizes the reality of his campaign.

    But hypothetically, what happens if he does better than "expected" in the first dozen or so primaries?

    -Bill O'Reilly places fingers in both ears and yells, 'I can't hear you!' (No change from today.)

    -Major networks cancel Sunday polital programming after several talking heads explode on live TV.

    -Sean Hannity, missing for several days, is finally found under his desk at FoxNews HQ, curled up in a fetal position whispering to himself, "He's NOT a great American. He's NOT a great American. He's NOT a great American."

    -Rush Limbaugh finally Googles Ron Paul.

  • ||

    "He is a "cult" candidate and the cult is not growing fast enough to make as big of an impact I hoped."

    Reagan didn't win the first time he ran, and Ron Paul's not the only person in the country who believes in the constitution. In fact, his candidacy has shown that far more people feel that way than I would have guessed (or hoped.)

    -jcr

  • ||

    "Rudy Giuliani, Mitt Romney and Fred Thompson have virtually the same Economic Conservative constituency."

    That's rather surprising, considering that none of them are economic conservatives.

    -jcr

  • Eric Dondero||

    Good point fxs, but this is only the first indication of his position. He was in the LP all the way up til 1995. Bet he was making similar comments all the way up til the mid-1990s. Wouldn't be too hard to track down.

  • Eric Dondero||

    What's good for the goose... Steve.

    Rudy and Mitt have been crucified for changing positions. Look at how they've savaged Rudy for the fact that he once supported Mario Cuomo. That was what? 20 years ago? But they still bring it up.

    If Rudy and Mitt can take the heat for changes in policy positions, so should Ron Paul.

  • Eric Dondero||

    You know, I bet if you went back to the 1970s and early 1980s, you could find position statements from Ron Paul saying that he wanted to be "tough on illegal immigration."

    Wouldn't that be a hoot.

    He switches from tough on border security to weak on border security to touch again.

  • Eric Dondero||

    John Randolph says "none of them are Economic Conservatives."

    He's right in a way. At least Rudy, and possibly Fred too, are more Economic Libertarians.

    Rudy's got Sally Pipes, Bill Simon, Steve Forbes, Larry Kudlow, Clint Bolick and two Cato guys as his Economic Advisors.

    The NY Times said of Rudy in 1999, "he's not even really a Republican... He's more of an extremist welfare slashing, tax cutting Ayn Randian."

    So, you could be right. Better to call Rudy an "Economic Libertarian."

    And Fred? He's got a lifetime NTU score of 86. He even hit 91 one year. That matches Ron Paul.

  • thoreau||

    If you can't trust the NY Times to correctly identify libertarians, whom can you trust?

  • Eric Dondero||

    Uh, uh, uh... Thoreau

    No Siree. Stop right there. Ain't just the NY Times who has called Giuliani a "libertarian," "libertarian-leaning" or a "libertarian conservative."

    The list includes:

    Washington Times
    Washington Post
    Economist
    LA Times
    Chicago Tribune
    New Republic
    National Review
    Insight Magazine
    London Times-Herald
    too name just a few...

  • Charlie||

    Eric,

    Do you mind giving us a list of publications that have called Rudy a "fascist"?

    Or how about a list of the fascists associated with his campaign, beginning with, say, Norman "Praying for War" Podhoretz?

  • VM||

    "Looks a LOT different, does it not?"

    actually, no.

  • Edward||

    The strongest asset a Ron Paul supporter can have is weak math skills. An overall low IQ is probably a prerquisite for getting on the Ron Paul bandwagon to begin with, but only those who can't count are going to stick it out for the long haul. SEND MORE MONEY!

  • ||

    Larry Kudlow? So, if Rudy is elected, we should expect a -1% nominal Fed funds rate within a year?

  • VM||

    "The strongest asset a Ron Paul supporter can have is weak math skills [and]* An overall low IQ ..."

    You mean his campaign is full of Personal Injury Attorneys???

    gasps!

    at least you can give them consistency on rejecting formal methods :)




    *(editor's note: where the inserted "and" is was a period in the original. Changed for humorous effect)

  • Eric Dondero||

    progris riport 7

    The operashun dint hert. Dr Strauss did it while I was sleeping. I dont know how becaus I dint see but there was bandajis on my eyes and my hed for 3 days so I coudn't make no progris riport till today.

    I was skared when they cam in and tolld me it was time to go for the operation. They maid me get out of bed and on another bed that has weels on it and then rolld me out of the room and down the hall to the door that says sergery. Boy was I serprised that it was a big room with green walls and lotas of docters sitting around up high all around up high all around the room waching the operashun. I dint no it was going to be like a show.

    A man came up to the tabel all in wite and with a cloth on his face like in TV shws and rubber gloves and he sed rilax Eric its me Dr Strauss. I sed hi doc Im skared. He sed theres nothing to be skared about Eric he sed youll just go to sleep. I sed thats what Im skared about. He patted my hed and then 2 other men waring masks too came and straped my arms and legs down so I coudnt move them and that maid me very skared and my stomack feeled tite like I was gone to make all over but I dint onley wet a littel and I was gone to cry but they put a rubber thing on my face for me to breeth in and it smelld funny. All the time I herd Dr Straus talking out loud about the operaashun telling evrybody what he was gonna do. But I dint understand anything about it and I was thinking mabye after the operashun Ill be smart and Ill understand all the things hes talking about. So I breethed deep and the I gess I was very tired becaus I wnt to sleep.

    When I waked up I was back in bed and it was very dark. I coudnt see nothing but I herd some talking. It was the nerse and Burt and I sed whats the matter why dont you put on the lites and when are they gonna operate. And they laffed and Burt sed Steveedan its all over. And its dark becaus you got bandijis over your eyes.

    Its a funny thing. They did it wile I was sleeping. Prof Nemur says its ok to tell about all the things that happin to me int the progriss riports but he says I shoud rite more about what I think and remembir about the past. I tolld him I dont no how to think or remembir and he sed just try.

    All the time the bandiges were on my eyesI tryed to think and remembir but nothing happind. I dont no what to think or remembir about. Mabye if I ask him he will tell me how I can think now that Im suppose to get smart. What do smart pepul think about or remembir. Fancy things I bet. I wish I new some fancy things alredy.

  • ||

    Eric,

    I don't recall seeing any Paul supporters criticising Rudy for supporting Cuomo, or even for changing positions. Most of our criticisms of Rudy relate to his views on Iraq, Patriot Act, etc., which as I recall are the issues that you criticise Paul most strongly on.

    What I don't understand is why people feel compelled to engage in BS character assassination (e.g. Ron Paul is a racist, Rudy Guiliani is a fascist, etc.) instead of honestly debating issues.

  • Fluffy||

    Eric, Rudy could get a 100 from the NTU and could raise Ayn Rand from the dead and eat her out every day and it wouldn't make him a libertarian.

    If you want to detain people without trial and torture them for information, you aren't a libertarian. There is nothing else to discuss, really. I don't care about his quadrant or his economic record. Actually, framing libertarianism as a set of economic policies is precisely what allows Naomi Klein to try to make Pinochet the poster child for libertarianism.

  • Jennifer||

    What I don't understand is why people feel compelled to engage in BS character assassination (e.g. Ron Paul is a racist, Rudy Guiliani is a fascist, etc.) instead of honestly debating issues.

    If your issue boils down to "authoritarians like Giuliani are the True Libertarians," you're better off with character assassination in the slim hope that it'll be the other guy who comes off looking like an ass.

  • Fluffy||

    By the way, Rudy is a joke with a joke of a campaign. He can take his murderer's row of advisors and get back into the business of conning money out of Kazakh billionaires for worthless security advice. He and his little chippy can hit the bricks. It only makes me sad that his campaign effectively ended before I had the chance to show up at one of his appearances and heckle him into hiding in a closet, the way Ron Paul groups around the country have gotten to. Damn you lucky Michigan Paul supporters and Georgia supporters and Missouri supporters and California supporters and...! etc.

  • Eric Dondero||

    John McCain is our biggest threat right now to getting a libertarian Republican nominee like Giuliani or Romney.If he catches fire, and Thompson throws in his support it could be trouble for the Free Mind and Market Rudy and Laissez Faire Mitt.Throw your vote away on Pander-Bear Paul but please don't vote for McCain. He is no kind of conservative and we'd be better off with Huckabee.I hope Thompson and McCain aren't colluding in some kind of tag-team run on the GOP nomination as that will guarantee a Democrat victory in November.

  • ||

    Rudy Guiliani is the mayor who said that his bout with cancer "softened" him, and inspired him to go on a tear signing up New York City's children for SCHIP, right?

  • ||

    No Siree. Stop right there. Ain't just the NY Times who has called Giuliani a "libertarian," "libertarian-leaning" or a "libertarian conservative."

    Which makes me believe that the people that write for those publications do not have any idea of what is libertarianism.

  • ||

    He's right in a way. At least Rudy, and possibly Fred too, are more Economic Libertarians.

    Are you talking about the same Rudy who prosecuted Michael Milken for making money, under the non-crime of "insider trading", or some imaginary Rudy you concocted? Because the real Rudy does not carry libertarian credentials, economic or otherwise. He's just another big-government fascist.

  • Edward||

    Bad a Giuliani is, he isn't a dorky old fart who sees multiple references to God in the Constitution and has apologized for the assisnation of Benizir Bhutto on behalf of the American people. Ron Paul is the bottom of the fucking barrel. How anybody could take his candidacy seriously is a mystery second only to the Virgin Birth.

  • Ericca Dedildero||

    Don't fall for McCain's second amendment credentials and libertarian-pandering opposition to farm subsidies/ethanol.Give him the chance and he'll sign a gun control bill that might as well be the same as Romney and Giulianis. Ending farm subsidies would destroy our free agricultural markets and makes as little sense as ending the FDA or Federal Reserve. Rudy know farm policy and that bigger subsidies equals a stronger America in the kaffir-covered face of scimitar-wielding Islamofascism.

  • Ali||

    The question is (really directed at Eric), with Rudy falling below Paul in IA and NH, will Rudy be included in future debates? Eric, with your insider knowledge, is the Rudy campaign scrambling right now to try to get into future debates. It must suck being in the Rudy camp right now. How much did Rudy raise in the 4th quarter, by the way?

  • ||

    Eric, if you think its wrong for Rudy and Fred to be "crucified" over position changes from 20 years ago, why do you do it to Paul? There's an inconsistency there.

    ---------Quote---------
    "You know, I bet if you went back to the 1970s and early 1980s, you could find position statements from Ron Paul saying that he wanted to be "tough on illegal immigration."

    Wouldn't that be a hoot.

    He switches from tough on border security to weak on border security to touch again."

    "Good point fxs, but this is only the first indication of his position. He was in the LP all the way up til 1995. Bet he was making similar comments all the way up til the mid-1990s. Wouldn't be too hard to track down."
    ---------Quote---------

    Wow, aren't we dwelling on hypothetical situations a little too much? Do the research and bring proof back here, it means nothing.


    Even, if Rudy actually is an economic libertarian (doubtful), he is still a police statist and a one-issue candidate. I'll take RP instead.

  • Sam Grove||

    Anyone who suggests the Giuliani is libertarian has negative credibility.

  • Mudkipz||

    Comrade Dondero-

    Even though you're a goofy fascist-coddler who advocates a candidate who believes, among other things, that the president is allowed to declare war on his own, you win the thread for the reference to now-forgotten Eisenhower-era sci-fi story.

  • Sam Grove||

    His campaign began re-branding Mr. Giuliani as the candidate of religious conservatives, or values voters, handing out glossy pamphlets featuring the endorsement from the Rev. Pat Robertson and a quotation from Mr. Giuliani in large letters: "My belief in God and reliance on His guidance is at the core of who I am."

    Whole Article.

  • ||

    I swear to god, Eric Donderooooooo could spin Rudy mugging an elderly lady as being the libertarian position (which might be in his sick twisted mind).

    And now Donderoooos calling Mitt Romney...MITT ROMNEY!!!!....a libertarian. What in the holy hell is going on here. I understand Rudy because Donderoo is thrilled with killing feteuses, but Mr. Used Car Salesmen himself Mitt Romney. That's fucking nuts. Mitt doesn't have a libertarian bone in his body. He's all politician, and probably ties with Rudy for most ethically challenged.

    I'm beginning to think this is all just some huge misdirection thing and Dondero is secretly working for the McCain campaign to slander all the other candidates by professing support. Do not be fooled, Donderoo is just using misdirection....or he's clinically insane and should be locked up in a padded room.

  • thoreau||

    I swear to god, Eric Donderooooooo could spin Rudy mugging an elderly lady as being the libertarian position (which might be in his sick twisted mind).

    9/11!
    9/11!
    9/11!
    9/11!
    9/11!
    9/11!
    9/11!
    9/11!
    9/11!
    9/11!
    9/11!
    9/11!
    9/11!
    9/11!
    9/11!
    9/11!

  • ||

    John Edwards is a libertarian. His $400 haircut is simply proof of the market at work.

  • thoreau||

    Hillary Clinton is pro-abortion, and she voted for the war, so obviously she's as libertarian as Giuliani.

  • Eric Dondero||

    Steve, what else could one conclude when a candidate hangs around with the likes of Don Black, David Macko, David Duke and is prominently displayed on the website for the StormTroopers Front?

    If he's not a racist, than why doesn't he disassociate himself from these people?

    Again, 8 years in Congress, and out of 22 Congressional staffers, Ron Paul has not hired a single Black, and only one Hispanic, in a heavily minority District, which includes Galveston!

    Maybe not a "racist," but certainly grossly insensitive.

  • Eric Dondero||

    I swear to God, Thoreau thinks we live in a pre-911 world. He things Islamic Radicals don't exist. This literally days after the Bhutto assasination.

    9/10
    9/10
    9/10
    9/10
    9/10
    9/10
    9/10
    9/10

  • Eric Dondero||

    Where in the hell did I ever call Mitt Romney a "libertarian." For that matter, I haven't really called Giuliani a "libertarian" either.

    They are both candidates that are worthy of libertarian support. Economic conservatives, who lean libertarian.

  • Eric Dondero||

    What a gem from Francisco:

    "People who write for those publications (NATIONAL REVIEW, NATIONAL REVIEW, NATIONAL REVIEW) have no idea what libertarian is?"

    Um, Francisco, perhaps you're a Newbie to our libertarian movement, but NATIONAL REVIEW practically created libertarianism. To say that they don't know what a libertarian is, is like saying Mussolini didn't know a Fascist when he saw one.

  • ||

    Where in the hell did I ever call Mitt Romney a "libertarian." For that matter, I haven't really called Giuliani a "libertarian" either.

    actual doublespeak at work...BRILLIANT!!!!

  • DDP||

    Dondero,

    Really?

    http://libertarianrepublican.blogspot.com/2006/12/rudy-giuliani-libertarian-for-president.html

  • 9/11||

    They are both candidates that are worthy of libertarian support. Economic conservatives, who lean libertarian.

    Dondi

    As long as you are calling big government centrists "libertarian leaning economic conservatives" where does John McCain fit in on the scale?

  • thoreau||

    Boys and girls, let's compare and contrast:

    Where in the hell did I ever call Mitt Romney a "libertarian." For that matter, I haven't really called Giuliani a "libertarian" either.



    Right here:

    Eric Dondero | January 1, 2008, 4:09pm | #
    John McCain is our biggest threat right now to getting a libertarian Republican nominee like Giuliani or Romney.



    (emphasis mine)

    Yes, I know that you inserted the word "Republican" after "libertarian" and before the names, but the implication of saying that somebody is a "libertarian Republican" is that the person has significant (not perfect, just significant) libertarian stances.

    Perhaps now you can explain that Oceania has always been allied with Eurasia.

  • ||

    Mr. Dondero. If I have this right, Dr. Paul is a flip flopper on immigration for allegedly changing his opinion? And he is a racist for associating with folks with those beliefs?
    So as his staffer for all those years you are guilty of racism and flip flopping by association? Because according to the arguments you are making, you aren't allowed to change your mind or explain away the years you were very chummy with the good Doctor.

  • DDP||

    The National Review practically created libertarianism? You haven't even the slightest idea of what is a libertarian, do you? It takes more than advocating low taxes and enjoying prostitutes.

  • Sistership is Powerful !||

    Remember the Stark! And Her Sister Ship!

  • ||

    ROTFLMFAO

  • B||

    He is being excluded for the very simple fact that he has no chance at all to win this election. Finishing third in one state is irrelevant if you consider his national polling. The man is barely on the radar screen in any national poll. One state doesn't mean squat; just ask Walter Mondale.
    But if it's any consolation, I'm sure he will win the majority of the vote from people who hate blacks and jews

  • Eric Dondero||

    Nice try brotherben, but I was the hedge for Ron Paul. I was the guy that kept him from going off the deep end all those years. I was his "token Republican" on staff. I moderated Paul as his Personal Aide. When he'd start to get a bit fringe, as he had a great tendancy to do, I'd pull him back from the edge.

    Didn't always work. Towards the end he "gave me a pass," and excused me from attending with him some of the more fringe meetings he'd go too, like Confederacy, Texas and White Separatist stuff. I warned Ron about going to such events. Instead of taking my advice, he said, "Well Eric, you don't have to go with me... I'll get a local volunteer to meet me in so and so town."

    That was the beginning of the end of our working relationship.

  • Eric Dondero||

    DDP,

    YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY DEAD WRONG!!!

    I've got a libertairan resume that would make your head spin buddy: Active in the Libertarian Party since 1985, LNC member, LP candidate for State Rep., LP Petitioner on over 20 drives in 15 states, Delegate to two National LP Conventions, Ron Paul Libertairan for Pres. Travel Aide 1988, Founder of the Republican Liberty Caucus, Fmr. Personal Aide to 1976 LP Pres. candidate Roger MacBride, Fmr. Senior Staffer US Congressman Ron Paul.

    Don't you dare tell me I don't know what libertarian is!!!

    You friggin' libertarian Newbie.

    Go out and work in a couple LP petition drives in Western Nebrask in the middle of Winter in 10 degree cold weather in the middle of a Blizzard. Then AND ONLY THEN, can you come back to me and tell me that I'm not a "real Libertairan."

  • Neu Mejican||

    Dondero,

    I support you, and your evidence truly shows what a racist asshole Ron Paul is. Libertarians say that they are not racist, but defend so called property rights that whites got when their skin color was the only claim to the land.

  • Eric Dondero||

    For your infomration DDP, libertarian IS PRECISELY THAT!!!

    Libertarian means "Republicans who know how to have a good time."

    Or, "Conservatives who are Pro-Choice and are opposed to the Religious Right."

    It DOES MEAN Pro-Choice/Anti-Tax.

    Or, "Fiscally Conservative/Socially Tolerant."

    There's no bowing down to the alter of some silly pledge to be a libertarian.

    You simply must be generally conservative on economic matters, and generally tolerant or hip or cool on social matters.

  • Happy Jack||

    "Economic Libertarian."

    Remember, only one roll of toilet paper per sailor! Next!

  • Eric Dondero||

    Neu Mejicano, have you just changed your view? Was it because of this new ad.

    Por otra parte, de que parte de Mexico es Ud?

    Eres Chicano or Tejano?

    Vives en Tejas, o California?

    No pienso que Paul es un racista explicita. Pero detras de las cortinas es una otra historia. Estamos de acuerdo mas o menos compadre.

  • OSC||

    Gee. All those credentials, wasted. Giuliani is nowhere near libertarian and to say so is a disgrace to libertarianism. Anyone who is anti-American as Giuliani doesn't deserve to be in the same breath as libertarian. Giuliani is neo-conservative scum. Period.

  • ||

    Mr. Dondero,
    You, sir, have tooted your own horn so much that my porn filter is now excluding your posts. Have a happy new year! May your health and happiness be blessed this year.

  • We\'re waiting...||

    E.D.m Kindly address this:

    DDP | January 1, 2008, 6:05pm | #
    Dondero,

    Really?

    http://libertarianrepublican.blogspot.com/2006/12/rudy-giuliani-libertarian-for-president.html

    or exit. Or both.

  • Fluffy||

    Dondero, your history doesn't matter. As soon as you lined up with the torturers and with the surveillance state, you ceased to be a libertarian. I am, in fact, "daring" to tell you that you aren't a libertarian. You aren't. Too bad.

    You openly advocate genocide and intentional collective civilian punishment, which is a war crime. You issue apologetics for and carry water for the least libertarian Republican party establishment in history. You might not like it, but you deserve to be smacked on both sides of your face, to have your sword broken, and your epaullets torn off. You then deserve to have every real libertarian in the country spit in your face.

  • the innominate one||

    B:

    I thought the primaries were supposed to be the mechanism to decide who the viable candidates were, not polls, not the media.

  • Tortillera||

    le voy a embarrar la cara de mierda a tu mama despues de culearmela

  • Jennifer||

    I do not believe in the existence of a deity or of life after death. Nonetheless, I consider myself a True Christian, and anyone who disagrees with me is Not A Christian At All, and for evidence I offer my Christian resume:

    Children's Choir, Wesley United Methodist Church, 5 years, 19FU - 19MYOB

    Acolyte, one Sunday per month for 6 years

    Methodist Youth Fellowship, 4 years

    Adult Choir (as teen), 2 years

    I stayed up all night at fund-raising "Rock[ing chair]-a-Thons." I got frostbitten toes playing a Visiting Shepherd or Three Wise Man in our church's outdoor Live Nativity Scene, winter after winter after winter. I even had a sheep poop on my foot one year.

    And to hell with merely passing out pamphlets--I actually wrote the damn things for MYF fundraisers! Yes, and sometimes Educational Poems for the Children's Services as well. And got a holy shitload of paper cuts and newsprint stains collecting newspaper for the recycling drives, too.

    Go out and get your fingertips scorched lighting candle-in-paper-bag luminaries on a subfreezing Christmas Eve in the middle of a cold snap. Then AND ONLY THEN, can you come back and tell me I'm not a "real Christian."
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .

    P.S. There is no God and Jesus was nobody special.

  • Joshua Holmes||

    Then AND ONLY THEN, can you come back to me and tell me that I'm not a "real Libertairan."

    I don't care if you fathered Rothbard if you're wrong about the most fundamental illiberal issue out there: the power of the war-making state. And you are very, very wrong about it.

  • an appreciator||

    That was funny, Jennifer. Thank you.

  • Tick...tick...tick...tick||

    Children's Choir, Wesley United Methodist Church, 5 years, 19FU - 19MYOB

    Time to collect cats
    you can't have too many...........

  • thoreau||

    Jennifer, as Christian as you are, did you ever personally break bread with Jesus the way that Judas did? Well, did you? Were you in Jerusalem for that crazy week with all the intrigue going on? Did you go forth in Israel and preach the word and cure diseases with the 12? And did you ever sleep on the hard desert ground with Jesus and the other apostles? How many loaves and fishes did you distribute to the masses?

    Until you've done as many long desert treks as Judas, you have no right to call yourself a Christian.

    P.S. Judas likes Giuliani's position on the power and authority of Caesar, and the fact that Giuliani wants to tax 30 silver pieces at a lower marginal rate.

  • Why trolls||

  • What Donder||

  • Jennifer||

    Fuck off, Thoreau. I was lighting candles for Jesus when you were still shitting your diapers.

  • thoreau||

    Jennifer, don't you care about low marginal tax rates for silver pieces? We all know that tax cuts increase charitable giving to Christian organizations. Why won't you get on board with Judas, the real Christian?

  • Jennifer||

    Jennifer, don't you care about low marginal tax rates for silver pieces? We all know that tax cuts increase charitable giving to Christian organizations. Why won't you get on board with Judas, the real Christian?

    Because Judas never said JACK SHIT about the Islamofascist menace, you stupid fuckhead! Read your goddamned Bible if you don't believe me.

  • thoreau||

    BTW, some of Giuliani's Roman ancestors were actually there at the death of Jesus. Can Jennifer say the same?

    Who's the one filled with love for Christ? Huh?

  • Jennifer||

    Yeah, way to play the racism card against yourself there, Thoreau. Asstard.

  • thoreau||

    Jennifer's stuck in a 5BC mindset.

  • thoreau||

    Hey, I don't need to take any lip from you, Jennifer. I met my wife at St. Jude's church, and we all know that Jude is just a few letters away from Judas.

    Real Christian right here! Boo-yah!

  • ||

    Um, Francisco, perhaps you're a Newbie to our libertarian movement, but NATIONAL REVIEW practically created libertarianism.

    Glorious conceit - NOBODY created libertarianism, it is just classical liberalism under a new name.


    To say that they don't know what a libertarian is, is like saying Mussolini didn't know a Fascist when he saw one.

    Eric, this is a classic case of begging the question - you assume NR created libertarianism to argue that they know true libertarians. But the first is unsubstantiated - NR (William F Buckley's brainchild) is far from being a libertarian or classical liberal publication; the great Murray Rothbard saw Buckley for what he was: a radical, warfare-state hack.

  • ||

    Libertarians say that they are not racist, but defend so[-]called property rights that whites got [sic] when their skin color was the only claim to the land.

    You're jesting, right?

  • Ali||

    thoreau, Jennifer--

    Haha... that was really funny! Intelligent. Got that Dondero?

    Here's my bit to add:

    While the 5BCers and 5Aders struggled, the Islamofascists, 7 centuries later, dismantled the Empire! May be we should listen to Rudy G. after all! Oh, wait, the empire fell under its own recklessness.

  • thoreau||

    Hey, Jude, don't make it bad...

  • ||

    You 2 please stop.
    I can't see the words for the tears and the uncontrollably shaking fits of hysterics.

  • Jennifer||

    some of Giuliani's Roman ancestors were actually there at the death of Jesus. Can Jennifer say the same?

    Fuck white supremacist douchefucks who say you're untermenchen if you're not descended from a bunch of fucking dago messiah-crucifiers. Racist cocktards.

    No wonder you support that candidate you support.

  • Mudkipz||

    Lol @ Dondero's picture, and also at his terrible writing at his allegedly non-existent "Giuliani is a libertarian" post linked above.

    "But another Blogger Quentin Langley over at the all-popular Red State pointed out to me that as President, Giuliani would have little to do with such issues. It was like a thunder bolt hitting me. He's right!"

    This is how a middle-aged woman from Ohio writes when offered the chance to write a column for her small-town weekly paper.

    And massive lulz with regards to wacky assertion that National Review invented libertarianism. Did Reader's Digest invent Marxism, too?

  • middle-aged woman from Ohio of||

    No, thank you very much, it is not.

    *fixes hair

  • Sister-Ship of the USS Stark V||


    I'm now declaring for Giuliani, unless some more libertarian candidate like Dennis Miller, Ron Paul, Gary Johnson or Wayne Root jumps in the race.

  • Extra ! Extra !||

  • The Wine Commonsewer||

    I was a little disappointed to see Stephen Green go off on us Paultards the other day. Found it by accident as I thought he'd gone out of business.

    http://vodkapundit.com/archives/009341.php

  • The U.S.S. Liberty incident, i||

    Real Christian right here! Boo-yah!

    You, son, are a jackass.

  • ||

    And I thought "Someone Who Doesn't Want To Lose His Job" had a long handle.

  • thoreau||

    crimethink-

    Would you explain to DONDEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO that if he's a real libertarian then you and I are real Protestants?

  • Don\'t get poysonal||

    And I thought "Someone Who Doesn't Want To Lose His Job" had a long handle.

  • Jennifer||

    Nobody here is a real Protestant, or a real Catholic, or a real any sort of Christian except me.

  • ||

    I've decided to not vote for Ron Paul. If it comes down to Ron Paul or Hillary, I'm going to vote like libertarian Noam Chomsky.

    http://eng.anarchopedia.org/Noam_Chomsky_on_Ron_Paul


    :)

  • Neu Mejican (authentico)||

    The January 1, 2008, 7:00pm comment was not approved authentic Neu Mejican fare.

    Eric D,

    Vive en Albuquerque.
    Mi Espanol es muy mal.
    Soy un Gringo major.

    I don't like Ron Paul primarily because of his stance on abortion and his views of the role of the judiciary. I would be truly scared of his supreme court picks.

  • ||

    Where can I get a Ron Paul bumper sticker that reads, "Give us liberty, or give us head!".

  • Jeebus||

    Nobody here is a real Protestant, or a real Catholic, or a real any sort of Christian except me.



    She's right, you know.

  • Eric Dondero||

    Back at you Joshua. If you align yourself with Islamp-Fascism by opposing the Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan you cannot by any stretch of the imagination call yourself a libertarian.

    If you align yourself with Islamo-Fascists, you're essentially a defacto Fascist yourself and no friend of liberty.

  • pissinginthetent.com||

    Can he ? yes he WILL !
    HTTP://PISSINGINTHETENT.COM

  • Condoleeza Rice||

    Noam Chomsky. Roooooofle. I cannot get ENOUGH of self-described anarchists who oppose the unfettered, unregulated proliferation of military-style weaponry.

  • ||

    I oppose the War on Drugs too, I guess that makes me a defacto Drug. All I ask is that you don't inject me into your ass; I think I deserve a more honorable entry point.

  • Eric Dondero||

    Francisco, just about anybody who is anybody in the libertarian movement, and who has been around for a while, will tell you that one of the Co-Founders of Modern libertarianism was a gentleman by the name of Frank Meyers. He invented the term "fusionism" which combines libertarianism with conservatism. Meyers was a Senior Editor at National Review in the early 1960s.

    Also, the modern Libertarian movement and the Libertarian Party evolved out of the Young Americans for Freedom in the mid to late 1960s. Dana Rohrabacher was Chairman of the "Libertarian Caucus" (and interestingly enough - the Libertarian Flag Football team), within YAF. In 1960, the Libertarians split with the Trads at the National Convention in St. Louis over the Draft issue and Drug Legalization. That Caucus went on to become the Modern Libertarian Party.

    BTW, YAF was founded by William F. Buckley in Connecticut in 1964.

  • ||

    thoreau,

    That's not a good analogy. If Dondero is a libertarian, you and I are Satanists, not Protestants.

  • ||

    Dondero,

    The Libertarian Party and libertarianism are NOT the same thing. (If you disagree, why the hell are you a Republican?)

    So, I really don't give a shit whose basement the LP was started in, or who spent the most time on street corners in what kind of weather, or any of that stuff. I care about policies, and anyone who thinks the policies Giuliani advocates are libertarian is a fool.

  • ||

    Francisco, just about anybody who is anybody in the libertarian movement...

    I knew we were off a bad start when you start a sentence like that.


    will tell you that one of the Co-Founders of Modern libertarianism was a gentleman by the name of Frank Meyers. He invented the term "fusionism" which combines libertarianism with conservatism. Meyers was a Senior Editor at National Review in the early 1960s.

    Eric, What is with this "He invented the term so he invented the movement" crap? Libertarianism did not come off Mr. Meyers as Athena from Zeuz's head. Libertarianism is the same philosophical movement as the XIX Classical Liberalism. At most, Mr. Meyer simply gave it a new name.

    Neu Mejican,

    I don't like Ron Paul primarily because of his stance on abortion and his views of the role of the judiciary. I would be truly scared of his supreme court picks.

    His stance on abortion is irrelevant and his thoughts on the role of the judiciary stem from his strict interpretation of the Constitution. Why would any be a problem is beyond me. I do not agree with him on some issues (especially immigration), but as a president that follows the Constitution, he would be, at worst, ineffective, and at best, a president that would not take more power than what the Constitution mandates. Also, his picks for the Judiciary would still have to be approved by the Senate. Even then, what would be the problem? Strictly Constitutionalist judges? Would THAT be SO bad??

  • ||

    Sorry, that is Zeus' head, and also, it is XIX Century Classical Liberalism movement.

  • Neu Mejican||

    You know what's bullshit? Negro inventions. As if!

    http://www33.brinkster.com/iiiii/inventions/

  • Joshua Holmes||

    If you align yourself with Islamp-Fascism by opposing the Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan you cannot by any stretch of the imagination call yourself a libertarian.

    Sure I can, because whatever horribles may be on-going in Iraq and Afghanistan, no one has a right to force me to help them out.

    But by contrast, what's your position on Darfur? Are you pro-Sudanese terrorists? How did you feel during the East Timorese war for independence? I hope you weren't pro-military dictatorship. Are you willing to invade Cuba to depose Castro? If not, why are you such a stinkin' pinko. How about removing Chavez? Morales? The ChiComs? Kim Jong-Il? Musharraf?

    Holy fuck, dude, you could be like a fascist communist pro-terrorist left-wing right-wing military dictator corrupt democrat monarchist? How do you sleep at night?

  • Sam Grove||

    The Libertarian Party was formed in Colorado Springs in the home of Luke Zell on December 11, 1971, after several months of debate among members of the Committee to Form a Libertarian Party, founded July 17.[11] This group included John Hospers, Edward Crane, Manuel Klausner, Murray Rothbard, R.A. Childs, Theodora (Tonie) Nathan, and Jim Dean.

    Wikipedia

  • Mr. Johnson||

    Let me tell you what, I've dealt with a lot of niggers in my day, and they ain't been very smart.

    At least they've always been smart enough to avoid the white parts of town. At least in my day, we didn't put up with no civil rights shit.

  • I give up||

    ^ this is quote? From a movie? Which movie or which novel?

  • non-Slavic poster||

    a quote

  • ||

    Even then, what would be the problem? Strictly Constitutionalist judges? Would THAT be SO bad??

    Well, yes, from the POV of leftish folks like Neu Mejican, that would be bad, since the modern welfare state, Roe v. Wade, gun control laws, etc. ad nauseam would be history if SCOTUS and all federal judges actually followed the Constitution instead of reading into it what they wish it said, or ignoring inconvenient stuff like the Tenth Amendment outright.

    Neu Mejican, joe, MNG, and virtually every politician at the national level view the Constitution as an impediment to their desired outcomes, and only invoke it when it coincides with what they want.

  • ||

    Meyers didn't coin the term "libertarian" or "libertarianism."

    He did promote "fusionism."

    And, by the way, Murray Rothbard wrote for National Review in the early days.

  • BakedPenguin||

    I really don't give a shit whose basement the LP was started in, or who spent the most time on street corners in what kind of weather



    Well of course that would be Dondero. Hookers don't just magically show up at your door.

  • ||

    Holy shit Dondero, you are a toolbag.

    Seriously your thing has got to be an act. I mean if it is, and you are secretly still really working for RP, or if you are working for McCain,

    then dude, it is pretty good. You are quite something.

    OTH if you are serious, then dude, you have a mental disorder.

    Srsly, read DrT and Jennifer's satire see if it clues you in.

    Read all the serious comments in these threads about your logical dissonance, and the corrections on your misunderstandings of what libertarianism and freedom is all about.

    I tell you this as an Iraq war supporter.

    It is in fact quite libertarian and logical to oppose the war. And it is beyond silly to accuse someone who opposes the war of siding with the enemy. (I mean there are those out there, but not on this board).

    It is quite possible to oppose or be in favor of the war and be a libertarian.

    It is quite possible to oppose or be in favor of abortion and be a libertarian.

    IMHO it is not possible to be in favor of the drug war and be a libertarian (Rudy)

    It is not possible to routinely favor violating the 2nd A and be a libertarian. (Rudy)

    It is not possible to favor torture, as a policy, or to favor punishing people by their religion or ethnicity, or regional background, and be a libertarian (or even a decent human)

  • ||

    Also, I wonder if the reason staffers can't out the guy posting racist stuff under other people's names?

  • hfs||

    What Donder | January 1, 2008, 7:40pm | #
    does.



    That right there explains a lot about certain people who post here.

  • ||

    In all honesty, I can't see describing Giuliani as libertarian at all. Any American candidate has some positions that are "libertarian". Still, Paul is by far the most consistently libertarian of all the candidates, whatever his flaws may be. Period. If that matters to you, vote for him. If it doesn't, then don't.

  • ||

    I still think it is actually Don Black who's been stealing Neu Mejican's handle.

    NM, I've been defending your honor for a couple days.

  • ||

    National Review invented libertarianism? Eh, maybe.

    But William F. Buckley was against the Iraq War. The neocons who run the magazine these days just keep him around to class up the joint.

  • Ronald Paul Reagan||

    You have to ask yourself one question: Are Iraqi's better off now than they were four years ago?

  • ||

    Hookers don't just magically show up at your door.

    Speak for yourself, Mr Penguin.

  • Neu Mejican||

    joe,

    Thanks, I have noticed.

    Prolefeed

    Neu Mejican, joe, MNG, and virtually every politician at the national level view the Constitution as an impediment to their desired outcomes, and only invoke it when it coincides with what they want.

    That is not true.
    I actually think RP's position the judiciary distorts the checks and balances set up in the constitution. Ron Paul's view on the judicial branch is that it should be subordinate to the other two branches, rather than co-equal...I support a robust judiciary, co-equal to the legislative and executive branches as an important check on government power over individuals.


    instead of reading into it what they wish it said

    This is a very shallow view of the process.
    I find it hard to take seriously.

    Antonin Scalia: I am "not a strict constructionist and no-one ought to be,"...it is "a degraded form of textualism that brings the whole philosophy into disrepute."

  • ||

    Col DuBois | January 2, 2008, 10:39am | #
    Hookers don't just magically show up at your door.

    Speak for yourself, Mr Penguin.


    I think that the cheaper ones you have to pick up on a street corner, and the pricier ones come to your hotel room.

    Or so I'm told.

    I am guessing that Dondero is an enthusiast of the former.

  • ||

    "But William F. Buckley was against the Iraq War."

    He's also opposed to the war on drugs.

  • ||

    Yes, prolefeed, everyone except you is corrupt and illiterate. That's exactly why there isn't univeral agreement about your preferred interpretation of the Constitution.

    Which, Lord knows, doesn't just happen back up the policy and philosophical outcomes you prefer. Not at all.

  • ||

    "Well, yes, from the POV of leftish folks like Neu Mejican, that would be bad, since the modern welfare state, Roe v. Wade, gun control laws, etc. ad nauseam would be history if SCOTUS and all federal judges actually followed the Constitution instead of reading into it what they wish it said, or ignoring inconvenient stuff like the Tenth Amendment outright."

    I agree with you Prolefeed on the welfare state and gun control, but couldn't the 9th Amendment be applied to Roe vs. Wade? What a woman does with her body could be considered an unenumerated right.

  • ||

    Prolefeed's one of those strict constructionists who doesn't think there are any unenumerated rights.

    You know, that kind of strict constructionists. If it's laid out in black in white in 1790s-era English, it's just a bunch of nonsense from activist judges.

  • insert||

    "not," joe; insert "not"

  • ||

    Quite right.

    Let's just call "not" a penumbra, and read it into my sentence at the location where it would best support the point I was making.

  • ||

    joe,

    Are you a Penumbrian, then? ☺

    I never liked the Griswald court's use of the "penumbra" of rights, preferring the idea that there's a whole slew of "natural rights" that we have. Using the penumbrial argument seems to be treating the Bill of Rights as a grant of rights, rather than as a specific prohibition on government action in regard to some rights. That wouldn't matter so much if the inksplottist viewpoint hadn't taken hold.

  • Shane||

    But by contrast, what's your position on Darfur? Are you pro-Sudanese terrorists? How did you feel during the East Timorese war for independence? I hope you weren't pro-military dictatorship. Are you willing to invade Cuba to depose Castro? If not, why are you such a stinkin' pinko. How about removing Chavez? Morales? The ChiComs? Kim Jong-Il? Musharraf?

    Holy fuck, dude, you could be like a fascist communist pro-terrorist left-wing right-wing military dictator corrupt democrat monarchist? How do you sleep at night?


    LOL, 10 points!

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