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Paris is (Still) Burning
After the 1992 riots in Los Angeles, French President Francois Mitterrand loftily told reporters that France was impervious to similar spasms of social unrest, as it "is the country where the level of social protection is the highest in the world." After the April 2007 massacre at Virginia Tech, Le Monde, house organ of the French intelligentsia, bemoaned a the rotten culture that produced such gun violence: "This new tragedy presents a new opportunity for American public opinion to interrogate itself about a society which, as one of the students who survived Columbine said at the time, is very much responsible for what has happened." So excuse the schadenfreude, but after another night of rioting convulsed Paris's suburbs, I was surprised to see the socially protected have taken up arms against their oppressors, according to The Guardian:
"We're dealing with an urban guerrilla tactic, with the use of conventional arms and hunting rifles," said Bruno Beschizza, of the Synergie police union.
One rioter with a shotgun "was firing off two shots, reloading in a stairwell, coming back out - boom, boom - and firing again", Gilles Wiart, deputy head of the SGP-FO police union, told the Associated Press.
Angry youths descended on Villiers-le-Bel for two nights in a row, burning cars, looting shops and trashing dozens of buildings, including a local police station. The town's library was destroyed in a fire.
[...]
"It's different [than the riots of 2005], there's much more violence," said Christophe, a 30-year-old police officer on duty at Villers-le-Bel and during the 2005 riots. "Back then, it was more of a revolt. This time, they're after us and they're armed."
thoreau|11.28.07 @ 5:39PM|#
At the risk of sounding like a France-basher (I'm not, I swear)
I think this shows the dangers of a rigid economy that limits
opportunity for advancement.
If you want people to feel like part of society, you have to make
it possible for them to find opportunities. If it's easy to get
social benefits but hard to find a full-time job or start a
business, expect pathologies to follow.
|11.28.07 @ 5:44PM|#
If the government controls everything, then asking the
government to change things is the first step for the displeased.
The next step is to attempt to change the government to one more
sympathetic to your plight. After that, the only choice is
violence, insurrection, and rioting. We have many more avenues for
change in our rotten, coarse, and hopeless culture.
Incidentally, I don't join in the schadenfreude--I hope
France can get this straightened out, preferably without more
bloodshed.
|11.28.07 @ 5:45PM|#
I think this shows the dangers of a rigid economy that
limits opportunity for advancement.
But I thought economic equality ment a more stable
society...Joe?
thoreau|11.28.07 @ 5:50PM|#
Guys, let's pledge not to respond to DONDEROOOOOOOOOO in this
thread. We gave him 177+ comments of troll-feed in a thread earlier
today. I think that was enough.
Back on topic:
Equality isn't the problem. In general, I think a more equal
society will be more stable. However, opportunity is also crucial.
The greatest possible opportunity for the greatest number of people
generally comes about in a freer economy, not a more regulated
economy.
|11.28.07 @ 5:51PM|#
Joshua,
If you're right, and if joe and his ilk further socialize the U.S.,
then I'm going to riot and throw a brick through his window.
First Little Pig|11.28.07 @ 5:53PM|#
OK, it's 5 years old, but you will get no better looksee into
the French "cites" crises (the last one, the current one, the next
one, etc.) than reading this:
http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_4_the_barbarians.html
And to Donderoo and his ilk: please edumacate yourselves before
making weak links. Had you been around during the race riots of the
mid-20th century you would have argued for bombing Africa in
retaliation and been laughed at.
We* are laughing at you now.
*Those who know better.
|11.28.07 @ 5:55PM|#
thoreau,
I agree with you. I would also add that this is a result of
maintaining distinct cultures/populations in close proximity. The
American melting pot has been a great success. True there are
periods of violence and adversity when new populations arrive. But
by the time their grandchildren grow up, they are all Americans, in
an America richer for their cultural contributions.
TLB|11.28.07 @ 6:00PM|#
I'll leave it to the libertarians to figure out how this could have been avoided, only adding that it can't happen here. We're special.
|11.28.07 @ 6:03PM|#
I think a more equal society will be more stable.
Equality under the law; yes.
State enforced economic equality; NO!
thoreau|11.28.07 @ 6:03PM|#
Warren-
The French would say that they are not trying to maintain distinct
cultures, but rather trying to bring everybody into French culture.
The problem is that when "French" has too rigid of a definition
people will be more resistant. There are many ways to be American,
and as people melt into the pot they get to add something to it.
That helps, I think.
Yes, I'm sure that immigrants have added things to France, but
cultural flexibility is an analog variable, not a digital one. I
think American cultural identity is a bit more fluid than in a lot
of other Western countries.
thoreau|11.28.07 @ 6:05PM|#
joshua-
I agree that state-enforced economic equality is neither desirable
nor stable (nor even achievable). However, you can get a greater
degree of economic equality if the people at the bottom have more
opportunities for advancement. Less regulated economies are more
likely to provide formal, open, full-time employment, and are more
conducive to entrepreneurship.
Marcvs|11.28.07 @ 6:14PM|#
I have no problem reveling in schadenfreude: 1) because
I'm kind of a dick, and 2) because all of this was brought upon
them by their economic and social policies. People need to learn
that you can't live in an economic fantasy land and expect to get
away with it.
Unfortunately, they won't learn that from this, it'll take a few
more times.
|11.28.07 @ 6:17PM|#
As near as i can tell, the French, for reasons that escape me,
have purposely been stagnating their society. I perceive this on
the economic front (protests because you could get fired in the
first two years of employment, c'mon!) and cultural fronts (they
have language police, for chrissakesI).
Without cultural and economic dynamism, what do the youth have to
occupy their time, thoughts and boundless energy? I think the
answer to that is in the news this week.
Aside to Thoreau - That scout's honor promise goes for TLB as
well.
thoreau|11.28.07 @ 6:18PM|#
I'd like to brag a bit, while we're on the subject of unrest. A
couple months ago, students on my campus held a big protest outside
the University President's home, and tried to disrupt his dinner
with donors.
What, you might ask, were they protesting? The war? Mumia's
incarceration? Uninformed social and political grievances? Bad
grades? Some sort of inflammatory incident on campus?
No. They were protesting the proposed cancellation of math classes
due to budget problems. Now, say what you will about students not
understanding budgets because they aren't in the real world, but
it's a proud day for me when I see students up in arms because they
want to study calculus and statistics.
Brought a tear to my eye, I tell you.
|11.28.07 @ 6:24PM|#
Today PRI's The World ran a piece* where they note
that the guns that have shown up in the most recent spate of
rioting are present due to the need for protection in the growing
illegal trade in crack cocaine.
They also noted that the violence hasn't spread to other
communities as it did in 2005 because the other communities think
this "riot" has gone too far.
Draw your own lessons...
* The audio link on that page is the wrong one. At least right now,
the audio is here (3m10s).
|11.28.07 @ 6:28PM|#
Urban guerrilla tactics, the use of conventional arms and
hunting rifles...
...rioters reloading shotguns in stairwells and firing again,
burning cars, looted shops and dozens of buildings trashed, a local
police station too. The town's library destroyed...
Big Deal! ...sounds like any given Saturday night in Detroit! I
guess the French really are a bunch of wussies.
GhostShip|11.28.07 @ 6:33PM|#
For the third year in a row, the muslims in France are rioting. If this keeps up they might as well make it a tourist attraction. People can choose to go to Spain and see the running of the bulls or go to France and see the riots of the muslims.
|11.28.07 @ 6:35PM|#
Brought a tear to my eye, I tell you.
Brought a smile of hope to this jaded cynic.
|11.28.07 @ 6:35PM|#
thoreau | November 28, 2007, 6:03pm | #
Warren-
The French would say that they are not trying to maintain distinct cultures, but rather trying to bring everybody into French culture.
I dunno Thoreau. Violent rioting has a virtuous lineage in France.
Seems to me that immigrants have absorbed that history lesson very
well. I say let some heads roll!!
|11.28.07 @ 6:39PM|#
Before the local Muslims, wasn't it just the local students - and doing as much damage?
|11.28.07 @ 6:39PM|#
Big Deal! ...sounds like any given Saturday night in
Detroit! I guess the French really are a bunch of
wussies.
Hey, I lve in Motown and it's not that bad. We get a lot of bad
press, mostly deserved, and we get a bit irritated about it. But I
will point out we haven't had a riot since 1967, thank you. Your
neares large urban area?
Syloson of Samos|11.28.07 @ 6:46PM|#
Moynihan,
One thing these people are not is "socially protected."
Warren,
It has long been debate whether the U.S. has a melting pot or not.
Whether France has or lacks such really doesn't matter (though I
will note that adapting to the French way of life has been common
enough amongst immigrant groups whose offspring make up much of
French society - Eastern Europeans are an example). I'd say simply
ignoring the problems, concerns, etc. of the population in question
has been the biggest problem. This is illustrated (as I have noted
time and a again) by the gang rapes which have plagued immigrant
communities (note that these communities aren't a monolith - they
aren't exclusively made up of North African muslims). Rent a copy
of La Squale sometime.
thoreau|11.28.07 @ 6:53PM|#
I'd say simply ignoring the problems, concerns, etc. of the
population in question has been the biggest problem. This is
illustrated (as I have noted time and a again) by the gang rapes
which have plagued immigrant communities
Darn good point. I seem to recall you pointing out in the past that
the French cops have largely ignored the rapes.
Say you're in an economy that makes it hard to get a job, and the
cops have zero interest in protecting your sister and mother from
rape, and then a cop is accused of misconduct in the deaths of 2
guys from your neighborhood. Well, is it any surprise if people
riot in those circumstances? It isn't justifiable to engage in
violence and destroy property, but it's certainly not surprising
either.
The Wine Commonsewer|11.28.07 @ 7:05PM|#
I do not pretend to know much about this but I have a good friend who is a Francophile and has spent much time in France during the last thirty years. He told me this would happen two years ago and he said it is because they essentially wall these people off in the Parisian equivalent of a Warsaw Ghetto and then completely ignore them. Meaning, if you call the cops because you were gang raped, they're not coming.
Syloson of Samos|11.28.07 @ 7:12PM|#
Nice 2001 BBC article on the gang rape situation as of that year. Sarcelles - which is profiled in the article - is right next door to Villiers-le-Bel (they abut one another).
|11.28.07 @ 7:37PM|#
thoreau,
Are you blaming France for these attacks? I thought they hate the
French for their freedom...
|11.28.07 @ 7:46PM|#
"See, I got so irritated, I didn't preview."
Just kiddin' J Sub. ...and yeah, had a front seat to the LA riots
in, what was that, '92?
Detroit's alright, if you like saxophones.
thoreau|11.28.07 @ 8:33PM|#
crimethink-
I'm blaming France's lack of economic freedom for hindering the
assimilation of North Africans into France's great culture. (And
yes, I really do admire French culture, even if I'm not a
passionate follower of it.)
But if "Freedom" and "French" are synonyms (at least in regard to
fried potatoes) then I guess we could say that they hate the
Freedom for their lack of economic freedom! :)
|11.28.07 @ 8:35PM|#
At the risk of sounding like a France-basher (I'm not, I
swear)
Why the apology -- even if you are?
I for one have never been able to decide what to do with the
French. They've come up with some really good philosophy.
Somehow, they've never really used it.
It has long been debate whether the U.S. has a melting pot or
not.
And it is a very curious debate. In this country immigrants (and
the poor in general) have opportunities to better themselves, to
rise above poverty if they're born to it.
Some of us have actually even lived that story.
In Europe it is a much, much harder story to live out. They have
you pegged "for college" or "not for college" at a fairly young
age, based on exams. This in turn sets your economic opportunities
and prospects for life.
Community colleges are an American thing, if I'm not mistaken. And
they were the road out for me (who didn't get his shit together and
head off to college until a bit later in life). In most of Europe I
would have been stuck.
In the final analysis, I have a hard time finding things to admire
about modern Europe. I find even less about them that we Americans
today should strive to emulate.
But then, I won't be voting for Hillary RODHAM Clinton (btw, does
anybody know why they always have to put her middle name in the
news??????).
BakedPenguin|11.28.07 @ 8:55PM|#
...btw, does anybody know why they always have to put her middle name in the news?
Because if they just used her first and last names, how would we
know who they were talking about?
thoreau|11.28.07 @ 9:02PM|#
Ebeneezer-
It's even worse than you think in European higher education. Say
what you will about American academia, but from what my colleagues
from continental Europe tell me the degree of nepotism in many
universities (maybe not the very top departments, but plenty just
half a rung down) makes the worst of American academia look clean
by comparison.
For all of its warts, America's system of higher education leads
the world. When I hear people compare European higher education
with ours in a favorable manner, I shudder.
|11.28.07 @ 9:12PM|#
Agreed!!!
Our educational system rocks, even if I myself (a PhD who could be
a prof) throw stones at it from time to time.
thoreau|11.28.07 @ 9:31PM|#
What's your Ph.D. in?
Believe it or not, I've heard foreigners speak favorably about the
concept of graduate classes, something that many foreign Ph.D.
programs don't have. At the time, I thought they were a waste of
time compared to research. I still say that research was 100x more
important than my classes.
But now I have to ask myself the question "OK, what else do I
know?" and I find that it was really useful to take classes on
stuff that the faculty specialized in. I didn't get anywhere near
the depth of understanding that I got from my research, but now I
go look at all these other topics that I might want to bring into
my teaching and research, and having spent some time studying these
topics under an expert gives me a starting point. And just having
some sort of starting point is enough for me to bring to bear all
of the skills that I learned in my research.
One more way that American higher education kicks Europe's ass.
|11.28.07 @ 9:38PM|#
TWC,
"...because they essentially wall these people off in the Parisian
equivalent of a Warsaw Ghetto and then completely ignore
them."
I have a friend how moved here from France about 6 month ago. She
says the same thing, made much worse by the current transit strike.
She also mentioned that the current president wants to create "U.S.
style" economic reforms (privatizing social security, doing away
with manufacturing entirly, etc.).
She is a socialist and big union supporter, so her view may be
slanted, but she says these are some of the issues on the
table.
|11.28.07 @ 10:08PM|#
I just spent 15 minutes typing a comment filled with wit and
insight and ample proof of my detailed knowledge of French history,
particularly of the post-Revolution period, and elaborating on
Marcvs' post about the French tendency toward self-delusion, but
then my computer ate it. Your loss.
Anyway, the gist of it is, although I normally try to repress
schadenfreude, when it comes to France I positively glory in it,
because being lectured by the French in matters of race relations,
economics or global statecraft is like listening to my 225 lb.
friend tell me what I need to do to lose the 15 pounds I keep
dragging around. And if you have any knowledge of French history,
particularly of the post-Revolution period, you might, like me,
wonder 1) why the French Revolution, and not the American one, is
viewed as the foundation point of modern democracy and 2) how the
hell France has managed to survive the past 200 years.
Oh, and when a culture spends those 200 years glorifying street
violence as a means of effecting political change, they deserve
what happens next.
|11.28.07 @ 10:44PM|#
stubby,
I was about to post something along the same lines, but my computer
ate it as well. :(
Anyway, when one thinks of France and insurrections, the
pre-revolution France should also be taken into account. The
Jacquerie and Fronde first come to mind, but there are many more
examples.
I agree with your point, though. You'd think that a country so used
to insurrections would have thought of a good way to deal with
them. Kind of like when Prussia became a military superpower after
being invaded so many times during the Thrity Years' War.*
*The references to European history probably won't end here, folks.
Just shut up and take it.
|11.28.07 @ 11:25PM|#
Exactly. Over and over...the poorer classes are locked out of
any opportunity for economic or political power and are either
exploited or ignored by entrenched, corrupt ruling class.
Resentment seethes and boils until something - usually war and/or
economic collapse - ignites the insurrection, and violence, often
severe and widespread, ensues. Jacquerie, Fronde, Revolution,
Napoleonic War, Franco-Prussian War, WWI, etc.
Something else that just occurred to me - in much of France, and
throughout much of Europe, the Paris Commune is still thought of
with awe and admiration - it's actually remembered positively.
Which explains a hell of a lot about France (and much of
Europe).
|11.28.07 @ 11:40PM|#
Compare and contrast the protests of Hispanics over the insane immigration bill vs. the rioting in France. That should tell you a lot about how each society handles immigrants.
|11.28.07 @ 11:48PM|#
For that matter, compare and contrast US Muslims' reactions and French Muslims' reactions regarding anything you can think of. I'm no fan of CAIR and the flying imam types, but still
|11.28.07 @ 11:53PM|#
For that matter, compare and contrast US Muslims' reactions
and French Muslims' reactions regarding anything you can think of.
I'm no fan of CAIR and the flying imam types, but still
Good point also, but I use the comparison to Hispanics because they
exist in large enough numbers in this country to seriously impact
it. Muslims really don't.
But, like the Muslims in France they are immigrants with brown skin
that came from a third world country and are sometimes
discriminated against. But no Hispanic riots, and I doubt there
will be. Why? Even if they are poorer than average, and
discriminated against in some areas, they can get
jobs.
|11.29.07 @ 12:02AM|#
My understanding is that people with Muslim names cannot get jobs in France, even those with useful advanced degrees. I recall reading some precise numbers recently, but I can't recall them. The unemployment rate for Muslims with advanced degrees was on the order of 25% or so.
|11.29.07 @ 12:06AM|#
Yep. As I read somewhere, in Europe immigrants find it very easy to get benefits, very difficult to get jobs. In the US the reverse is true. And yet so many Europeans still think of the US system as unfair. And in the US, while it's undeniable that the poor and disenfranchised live in dangerous and unlovely neighborhoods, nowhere are there areas so bad that they are literally ignored and avoided by government and law enforcement. Nowhere, to my knowledge, would a report of gang rape or murder go unanswered. At least I don't think there is - the idea of an area being so bad that "even the cops won't go there" is common, but I'm not aware of any except maybe the housing projects in pre-Katrina New Orleans. Are there such areas anywhere else? I recall reading that City Journal article years ago and being shocked about the ghetto aspects of the banliues.
Paul|11.29.07 @ 12:11AM|#
One rioter with a shotgun "was firing off two shots,
reloading in a stairwell, coming back out - boom, boom - and firing
again",
But, you see this doesn't settle anything about the French
attitude. The French will merely contend that these rioters aren't
actually French in that they lack a certain "frenchyness". They're
dirty foreign immigrants, or children thereof. Argument over. Back
to our regularly scheduled sneer at the horrid American proclivity
for individual rights.
thoreau|11.29.07 @ 12:13AM|#
Even if they are poorer than average, and discriminated
against in some areas, they [American Hispanics] can get
jobs.
Yep. That's the crux of the matter.
If immigrants can (1) get jobs, (2) open businesses, and (3) call
the cops to report a rape and have confidence that the cops will
help them, then the assimilation thing will work out. Not always
perfectly, but it will work pretty well. OTOH, if economic
advancement and the protections of the law are hard to obtain, then
we'll see frustrations brew in poor and lawless places.
Paul|11.29.07 @ 12:15AM|#
Pro L:
If the government controls everything, then
asking the government to change things is the
first step for the displeased. The next step is to attempt to
change the government to one more sympathetic to your
plight.
First amendment.
After that, the only choice is violence, insurrection, and
rioting. We have many more avenues for change in our rotten,
coarse, and hopeless culture.
Second amendment.
|11.29.07 @ 12:29AM|#
Ooh! Good question - with all of us trigger happy savages running loose in this great imperialist monster of a nation, why has there never been - excepting the Civil War, which was concluded with the Union remaining intact - a serious armed insurrection in this country? I'm not talking about Whiskey Rebellions or Fremont's thing in California or any of that stuff. All these guns, and we're all supposedly so violent and arrogant and possessed of no restraint - why don't we have lots of armed rebellions? Huh? Huh? Answer me that, smarty pants Euroflotsam!
Paul|11.29.07 @ 12:34AM|#
All these guns, and we're all supposedly so violent and
arrogant and possessed of no restraint - why don't we have lots of
armed rebellions?
Easy: Gun owners are the imperialists of this nation. We
support the oppressive capitalist system. We gun owners have all
the money and all the power, therefore, what would we be rebelling
against?
As a gun owner, I'm quite sure my money and power are in the mail.
It didn't show up in the mail today, but given our intrepid postal
service, nor rain, nor sleet blah blah, it'll be here any day now.
I'm sure of it. Aaaany day now. Yesirree.
Robert|11.29.07 @ 12:35AM|#
I thought they took care of this problem by asphalting over the paving stones after 1968.
Robert|11.29.07 @ 12:39AM|#
All these guns, and we're all supposedly so violent and arrogant and possessed of no restraint - why don't we have lots of armed rebellions?
Easy: Gun owners are the imperialists of this nation. We support the oppressive capitalist system. We gun owners have all the money and all the power, therefore, what would we be rebelling against?
Reminds me of what Daddy said when I told him the Nazis took away
people's guns:
"There were no guns in Germany before the Nazis.
The Nazis gave people guns."
|11.29.07 @ 1:14AM|#
Paul:
We own guns. AND we live in Texas, AND we go to church, AND
sometimes we vote Republican, AND my husband drives a truck, works
on cars, and has perused porn in the past. I keep waiting for him
to beat me, but so far he hasn't. Or should I say, so far he
ain't.
I read a hilarious article once by some capital-F-eminist, who
recounted a heart warming tale of breaking down in her car out on a
lonesome road, and who should come to her aid but a good old boy in
an RV, and she noted with some fear and trepidation (and, I
suspect, a damp heaving bosom) that he had some skin mags in his RV
and he either had a gun or mentioned that he went hunting, and she
was amazed and grateful that he got her car fixed up and back on
the road without rapin' her or nuthin. She would never have
suspected that gun owning, animal hunting, porno-reading guys in
SUVs were not a threat to unaccompanied women.
Sorry. Off topic again. Going to bed now.
Syloson of Samos|11.29.07 @ 1:15AM|#
stubby,
Insurrections, riots, significant public disturbances, etc. have
been fairly common in U.S. history; however, as the U.S. is far
larger than France our insurrections, etc. have tended to be more
geographically isolated. A good example is the Dorr Rebellion in
Rhode Island.
cesar,
But no Hispanic riots, and I doubt there will be.
Actually, there have been plenty of "hispanic riots" in U.S.
history (some of them of course - like the "zoot suit riots" -
involved whites attacking hispanics).
|11.29.07 @ 1:49AM|#
What's your Ph.D. in?
Mechanical engineering. You're a physicist, right? I work with
physics types quite a lot. But then, I've gotten myself into
R&D in industry, which isn't so easy to do these days.
But I developed a mathematical model of laser generated ultrasound
waves for my dissertation (something physics types typically do),
then modelled the entire driving and receiving electronics systems
to convolve with the ultrasound waves (something EEs usually do) so
I could compare my model to experiment. [my model worked
wonderfully. :) Got lots of publications out of it.]
So most ME's don't consider me a "real" ME. But that's okay.
I agree, I learned a ton from my research too. But I wouldn't say
it's more important that the class work was.
When I was taking my grad courses, I thought they were a waste of
time. Especially didn't see the need for all that stinking math!
But for me, the math was the road to learning how to think about
problems physically. It taught me to connect the equations to the
physical world. I just didn't realize how much I'd learned from it
until a few years after I'd graduated. I was trying to solve real
problems in industry, and all these people around me (with
undergrad degrees) were coming up with all these really nuts-so
ideas about how to go at it.....
And then it dawned on me. I really did learn a lot from my course
work.
We also had to take PhD qualifying exams, which I thought were the
most brutal part of the PhD program. The guys I went through it
with are still like old war buddies. But in retrospect, that taught
me a huge lesson too: you can master any subject you want in six
months, if you dedicate yourself to learning it.
So they don't include course work in European PhD programs? Now
that makes no sense to me..... Course work should not be the bulk
of a PhD program, but I strongly believe there should be
some.
Anyway, the glory of the US educational system is that it's open to
anyone who wants to do the work. Virtually anybody can get it. It
doesn't mean you'll graduate unless you can do the work, but at
least the door is open for everyone to try.
And that, I say, is justice. You may rise as high as your talent
and ambition can take you.
|11.29.07 @ 2:09AM|#
stubby,
And if you have any knowledge of French history, particularly
of the post-Revolution period, you might, like me, wonder 1) why
the French Revolution, and not the American one, is viewed as the
foundation point of modern democracy and 2) how the hell France has
managed to survive the past 200 years.
Those are really good questions. Glad to know I'm not the only one
who's asked them.
But it's always made me curious. The Romans had periodic peasant
riots, and somehow in Rome they were ultimately and often
productive. Brought about needed changes for the good, and taught
the aristocracy not to take the lower classes for granted. Yet in
France the positive benefits of such turmoil never seem to have
filtered through the haze.
I don't understand the difference between the Romans and the
French. But the lasting duration of Rome is a historical rarity, so
I tend to think the French have at least part of a good idea
going.
Only partially, mind you. :)
|11.29.07 @ 2:10AM|#
Paul,
Easy: Gun owners are the imperialists of this nation. We
support the oppressive capitalist system. We gun owners have all
the money and all the power, therefore, what would we be rebelling
against?
That cracked me up, considering the fact that most of the gun
owners I know are red necks (and I have to confess that I grew up
in that thar kinda country myself).
Ha! America: land of the Imperialist Capitalist Pig Redneck
Overlords, who have all the money and all the power (yet they still
choose to live in trailers). I'm pretty sure the trailers are
somehow part of their concern for the environment. Oh wait, we're
talking about Rednecks here, with a capital[ist] R.
But Stubby has branded herself a redneck and she's talking
about French history. French history! Stubby, you just can't be a
real redneck.
Syloson of Samos|11.29.07 @ 2:19AM|#
Ebeneezer Scrooge,
France has been successful for a number of reasons, some of them
directly related to the Revolution and its aftermath. These include
the creation of the various legal codes under Napoleon's reign, the
breaking down of internal barriers to trade, the end of much of the
medeival legal regime regarding land ownership, taxes, etc. Then
again, like Tocqueville, I think that the Revolution was merely an
extension and acceleration of what had been happening under the
monarch since Henry IV. Anyway, suffice it to say that a lot of
positive good came out of the French Revolution.
Syloson of Samos|11.29.07 @ 2:33AM|#
|11.29.07 @ 2:49AM|#
Anyway, suffice it to say that a lot of positive good came
out of the French Revolution.
You have a point there....
Guy Montag|11.29.07 @ 6:04AM|#
Actually, french violence is so much more sophisticated than American violence. Also, european violence has a tendency of disappearing shortly after it happens, as opposed to American violence that is replayed daily in the media, forever.
Syloson of Samos|11.29.07 @ 6:36AM|#
thoreau,
Well, suffice it to say, relations between French police and much
of the population in these areas is not a good one. There is a lot
of debate in the French government as to what to do about that.
|11.29.07 @ 6:44AM|#
) why the French Revolution, and not the American one, is
viewed as the foundation point of modern democracy...
When I first read this I thought it was a typo. I always thought
the American Revolution WAS considered the foundation of modern
democracy. I always considered the French revolution as a spasm of
revengeful blood-letting by the commoners.
Do you mean to tell me that Historians consider the French
revolution a step forward in the democratic evolution of man?
|11.29.07 @ 6:46AM|#
"Back then, it was more of a revolt. This time, they're
after us and they're armed."
Am I the only one who finds this line very funny?
Syloson of Samos|11.29.07 @ 7:01AM|#
wayne,
There is a lot of debate amongst historians (as there was amongst
those who witnessed the revolution) as to whether it was overall a
positive event in French and European history. I think it was, but
there are obviously different ways to look at the issue.
As for the "revengeful blood-letting" bit, well, yeah that
happened, but those are common in revolutions.
|11.29.07 @ 7:43AM|#
They may have accomplished some useful things in the French
Revolution. But in the aftermath, it seems that France never quite
got it's shit back together.
I would venture that since the Revolution, the nearest France has
come to a moment of clarity was under Napolean. And that may not be
the most enviable type of clarity one could hope for.
The near-universal disaster of the French Colonial world was a
direct consequence of the fact that France could never make up its
frigging mind about what it was really trying to do, or not do, in
the colonies.
I suppose that problem was common to the rest of Europe as well.
But Britain at least has some colonial aftermath that isn't just a
pure sob story.
As opposed to France, where the fiasco of Vietnam was typical fare.
If not for the French, I do not believe Ho Chi Minh and the
communists could ever have gotten their feet on the ground in
Vietnam, let alone have achieved what they ultimately did.
America may have brought more guns to Vietnam (and we might have
felt more guilty afterward), but it was the French who decided and
controlled the pivotal events that ultimately made Vietnam a
communist country. The lion's share of the blood rightfully falls
on their hands.
The US was stupid in Vietnam. What the French did was something
much worse.
But this is getting far afield.
|11.29.07 @ 8:14AM|#
I'm not a historian, but I would say that it's hard to compare
the American and French Revolutions simply because the American
version was a much more top-down affair (from the landed gentry)
and the French was a much more bottom-up one (from the angry
peasants).
Needless to say, I would argue that most revolutions since then
have been in the vein of French Revolution and that has generally
been a bad thing.
As someone that doesn't believe that history is drawing to some
grand event or conclusion (as a Marxist or Millenarian would), I
would say that bloody revolutions that ultimately result in
dictatorships are in keeping with our beginnings as a bunch of
tribalist apes.
|11.29.07 @ 9:02AM|#
You people comment on 'American' vs 'European' PhD studies as if
those were somehow set in stone: here we do it this way, there they
do it this way, we are (of course) better, everybody slaps
everybody's back. What non-anecdotical evidence you have? Or even a
weaker claim: that on one continent one particular kind of studies
(however defined) is more popular than on the other one - you know
it is true, right? How do you know that?
For example, for my studies I had to pass a difficult exam. For
example, my duties during studies were decided on by my supervisor
and me (and yes, they included many courses taken; for other PhD
students it might have been different, of course). Guess which
continent I was (and still am) on?
(yes, anecdotical evidence and so on, not proof of anything, I know
that... how about you?)
|11.29.07 @ 9:28AM|#
I suspect that France's community policing initiatives leave something to be desired.
|11.29.07 @ 9:29AM|#
Without cultural and economic dynamism, what do the youth
have to occupy their time, thoughts and boundless
energy?
Exactly what you'd expect from groups of low-IQ, violent, primitive
and dishonest people - they cause trouble. Blaming their actions on
apartment architecture, lack of "dynamism" (supplied by someone
else, of course), yadda yadda, is just laughable.
|11.29.07 @ 9:31AM|#
joshua corning,
But I thought economic equality ment a more stable
society...Joe?
What makes you think that we're talking about economic equality?
These are incredibly poor neighborhoods full of people living in
public housing, with high unemployment rates. You're looking at a
situation of poor people rioting, and offering it as a rebuttal to
the argument that economic inequality causes problems?
You keep yelping at me like this, and you keep making an ass off
yourself like this. Why don't you try to make a point of your own,
joshua? You might have better luck.
|11.29.07 @ 9:33AM|#
Equality isn't the problem. In general, I think a more equal
society will be more stable. However, opportunity is also
crucial.
Unfortunately, I think that equality and opportunity are mutually
exclusive, t.
You might also rethink the notion that "equal" societies are the
more stable. Offhand, I can't think of a society that made economic
equality a high priority that has lasted as long as three
generations.
Ben Rast|11.29.07 @ 9:37AM|#
When a country is free, prosperous, and powerful, it can count
on a great deal of European carping about its success, especially
from those countries that used to be free, prosperous and powerful,
and perhaps even more from those countries that wanted to be be,
but never made it.
In short, envy motivates much of the political and intellectual
criticism directed against the United States. Not that the US is
blameless. That title may rest safely on the act of an individual,
but never on a nation. Get enough people together, and someone will
behave badly, just like in college, only with real money and full
responsibility. Unless you're a Congressman or an English
professor. Then you get to pretend you're in college your entire
career.
But I digress. Michael Moynihan appropriately takes down European
hubris a notch or two by reminding them of their self righteous
analysis of the Columbine massacre: "blame Charlton Heston."
I'm sorry. I missed something. Was he actually at Columbine?
Now people are rioting in France. Again. If it weren't such an
abuse of common sense, it might actually be entertaining to see how
French intellectuals struggle to differentiate violence in the
United States from mob violence in France. Recall that it was the
French philosopher Jean Paul Sarte who said of the 1972 Munich
Olympic massacre, terrorism "is a terrible weapon but the oppressed
poor have no others."
|11.29.07 @ 9:44AM|#
Offhand, I can't think of a society that made economic
equality a high priority that has lasted as long as three
generations.
I can't think of any socieities that made levelling a high
priority and lasted more than three three generations, but not all
efforts to promote equality is levelling.
As thoreau suggested, providing economic opportunity to people who
have been locked out of the mainstream economy and society is a
pro-equality position. And clearly, the people in these suburbs
have been pretty effectively locked out of the mainstream
economy.
Marcvs|11.29.07 @ 10:41AM|#
Sorry, MR, we didn't realize that we needed a PhD and permission from you to discuss things.
|11.29.07 @ 10:51AM|#
You people comment on 'American' vs 'European' PhD studies
as if those were somehow set in stone: here we do it this way,
there they do it this way, we are (of course) better, everybody
slaps everybody's back. What non-anecdotical evidence you
have?
Nobel
Prizes in the Sciences, 1951 - 2000
Chemistry - U.S., 40 (46%) Europe, 38 (43%)
Physics - U.S., 64 (59%) Europe, 39 (36%)
Medicine and Physiology - U.S., 67 (59%) Europe, 42 (37%)
Totals - U.S., 171 (55%) Europe, 119 (39%)
I'm not doing the per capita work, but the #s would be even more
lopsided if I did.
|11.29.07 @ 10:55AM|#
Marcvs, I covered it.
But then, I Haven't been to college so I'm probably talking out my
ass.
|11.29.07 @ 11:19AM|#
Huh? My English must be worse than I thought. Or yours.
You are free to discuss whatever you like, Marcvs. And I agree, J
sub D, that American universities do very very high level science
(in some sciences, physics for example, I would say that best
American universities are best in the world, period).
What was then what I did not agree with? Well, descriptions of PhD
studies 'here' and 'there', as I wrote explicitely. Not the part
'this is how it should be done' (where I mostly agree with thoreau)
but the part 'here (always? typically? on my university?) it is
done this way, there it is not'. Clear now?
Minion of URKOBOLD|11.29.07 @ 11:38AM|#
THE FIRST MISTAKE YOU MADE IS THAT NOBODY IS USING ENGLISH HIER.
IT IS A MADE-UP LANGUAGE, CONSISTING OF LETTERS AND SPACES*,
DESIGNED TO LOOK LIKE A COMBINATION OF GIBBERISH, SILLINESS, AND A
BAKED POTATO(e).
* not if you're LoneWackJob
thoreau|11.29.07 @ 11:39AM|#
MR-
Perhaps I did generalize a bit too much. Still, most European and
Aussie Ph.D.'s that I've met say that they had less coursework and
also less time in research than Americans. There's much to be said
for getting your Ph.D. students out faster, but there's also much
to be said for letting somebody spend a good amount of time on side
projects and learning from dead ends.
The differences aren't uniform, but the trends are there. Sure,
these reports are anecdotes, but they generally tell me what the
standards are for their departments.
thoreau|11.29.07 @ 11:41AM|#
RC-
I agree that efforts to coerce equality via subsidy or restrictions
on advancement are corrosive. I also agree that perfect equality is
unattainable. However, there are degrees of inequality, and the
more people you have clustered at the bottom, the more corrosive it
is to society. The gap between middle and top isn't the sort of
inequality that worries me nearly as much as having a population
stuck at the bottom. And often a population stuck at the bottom is
getting the short end of a public policy stick. It would be better
to remove the policy that's limiting their opportunities.
|11.29.07 @ 11:57AM|#
Ebeneezer: No, I'm not a redneck - but I am first-generation post-redneck on my father's side. And the fact that I live in a red state (albeit a purple city) and own guns, attend church, yadda yadda, means that lots of people who don't know any better - and lots of people really don't know any better, bless em - would assume that I am a redneck. This normally amuses me, but I admit that it sometimes pisses me off.
|11.29.07 @ 1:13PM|#
Hey, I'm a first gen post-redneck myself.
I kind of like that, "post-redneck". :)
|11.29.07 @ 1:21PM|#
MR,
Your apparent disdain may be well justified. In fact I know little
of how European grad schools teach engineering.
I do know the Germans used to do some things smarter than we do at
the undergrad level. Like they made their students actually learn
how to make real hardware (gasp!). But then, their undergrad
programs were five years.
This, as told to me by German engineers at a conference I was
at.
In any case, what I like about the American system, which (I have
been told) is different from Europe, is the open-ness here to all
comers. I for example took one year of math and science in high
school because they made me, I swore I'd never be an engineer or
scientist.
Then I got a technician job, got interested in the physics of what
I was working on, decided to go back to school. I started out in a
community college, caught up on all I should have learned in high
school, and then -- well, in the end I'd decided to get a
PhD.
Is this kind of career path easy to do in Europe? Seems not, from
what I've heard. But maybe I don't know.
|11.29.07 @ 3:09PM|#
Well, reading my comments again I agree they are too agresive.
Sorry about that... (not native speaker and all that, if anybody
cares about my excuses)
What I meant was: if you want to say 'French do that and that in a
stupid way', feel free to go ahead. But when somebody says
'Europeans do that and that in a stupid way' based on the fact that
the French, indeed, do, while we (Poles) do not - well...
As for your question, Ebeneezer, the only answer is 'it depends'. I
would indeed guess that such an elastic career is difficult in
France, Germany or Italy.
However, here in Poland during last eighteen years (i.e. from when
people started to be able to really decide their fate) number of
university students more than tripled. Most of those new students
are on 'evening courses', i.e. they work during the day and have
classes and lectures during weekends (every second weekend,
usually). It seems precisely the model you describe, right?
Syloson of Samos|11.29.07 @ 3:17PM|#
Scrooge,
But in the aftermath, it seems that France never quite got it's
shit back together.
Given most measures of such things France is a very successful
country.
I would venture that since the Revolution, the nearest France
has come to a moment of clarity was under Napolean. And that may
not be the most enviable type of clarity one could hope
for.
What exactly is a "moment of clarity?"
But Britain at least has some colonial aftermath that isn't
just a pure sob story.
It seems to me that has very little to do with Britain however.
European colonies break down into to two types: colonies where a
European population became dominant and colonies where Europeans
ruled over a majority non-European population. France has only one
example of the former, Quebec, which, has a history that makes it
difficult to draw lessons from. As for the latter type of colony
the most successful ex-colonies for any European nation were the
most successful regions before colonization in the first place. The
best way to look at the issue of this second type of colony is
regionally - and regionally West African British and French
ex-colonies don't seem to be any more or less successful than one
another.
If not for the French, I do not believe Ho Chi Minh and the
communists could ever have gotten their feet on the ground in
Vietnam, let alone have achieved what they ultimately
did.
Ho Chi Minh and his movement came to the fore and got on their feet
as a result of WWII and the Japanese occupation. So why not blame
the Japanese government of WWII?
Syloson of Samos|11.29.07 @ 3:23PM|#
BTW, I think that nationalist grousing works a bit like the "Oliver Woofing Theorem."
|11.29.07 @ 5:27PM|#
Ho Chi Minh and his movement came to the fore and got on
their feet as a result of WWII and the Japanese occupation. So why
not blame the Japanese government of WWII?
Ho Chi Minh was getting on his feet a decade before the Japanese
invaded. But he would not have been able to do so if not for the
mass discontent among the Vietnamese. A consequence of policies
such as, in Vietnam the lowest paid French janitor made more than
the highest paid Vietnamese, no matter if they'd been highly
educated in France.
The French absolutely blocked Vietnamese growth and development,
leading the Vietnamese people to a level of discontent that can
only be described as rage.
Many, many Vietnamese knew the Viet Minh were basically a communist
front and they did not want to support the communists. But there
was no other avenue open for a Vietnamese patriot.
The French also, following the Mercantilist theory, prohibited any
industrial development in Vietnam. This combined with their
policies for paying the few Vietnamese who got government jobs,
absolutely stopped any prospect of a real middle class from ever
developing in Vietnam.
Ho Chi Minh was able to capitalize on the Japanese invasion. But
the discontent that made it possible for a communist movement to
take serious root -- in a country where the people at large had no
natural inclination to follow communism -- that set of conditions
was most certainly, and most directly, created by the French.
The French never treated the Vietnamese people as anything other
than animals. There were no Vietnamese able to provide national
leadership except the communists, because nobody but the communists
were getting any kind of support and training (China,
Russia).
There was a time, in fact, when Ho Chi Minh was not communist and
he tried for a solution without them. The French cut him off quite
effectively. He turned to communism as much out of frustration as
anything.
I make no apologies for Ho Chi Minh (the bastard anyway), but if
the French had been a little more humane with the Vietnamese (in
the decades before WWI especially), I do not believe that Vietnam
would have become communist.
Paul|11.29.07 @ 6:02PM|#
Actually, french violence is so much more sophisticated than
American violence.
Yeah, they kill people while riding around on those little motor
scooters, shouting "Ciao!"
They also drink coffee from those tiny little cups. I love that. A
gun toting baddy drinking espresso from demitasse. Clint Eastwood
movies would have been so different. And to think, most were filmed
in Italy!
|11.29.07 @ 6:54PM|#
Sorry about that... (not native speaker and all that, if
anybody cares about my excuses)
That's not an excuse, it's a reason. no problemo MR.
vm|11.29.07 @ 7:01PM|#
"Huh? My English must be worse than I thought. Or yours."
excuse.
Sys - indeed- you definitely get into sports fan mode when going on
about the EU or france - it's amusing watching your cheers out do
the opponents!!
Syloson of Samos|11.30.07 @ 3:09AM|#
Scrooge,
The French absolutely blocked Vietnamese growth and
development, leading the Vietnamese people to a level of discontent
that can only be described as rage.
That was true of every European colonial regime.
|11.30.07 @ 9:22AM|#
That was true of every European colonial regime.
Just to be contrary, the Crown Colony of Hong Kong.
Gauls are pieces of shit|11.30.07 @ 4:26PM|#
I applaud anytime something like this happens in France. Why? Because that shitty, insignifcant country deserves whatever misfortune befalls it.
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