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The Equal Sharing of Misery
The AP reports that El Jefe Convaleciente, Fidel Castro, is denouncing the growing gap between poor and poorer in his island fiefdom. No, he isn't turning back on five year plans and revolutionary sugar harvests, simply threatening those who accept money from relatives living abroad. As always, it's the Miami mafia that's buggering up the economy:
Fidel Castro said Wednesday the island's communist system has become plagued by "irritating inequalities and privileges" that have left the poor bitter and angry.
Turning a more critical eye on Cuban life than he has since falling ill and giving up power almost a year ago, the 80-year-old Castro said in an essay published in state-run newspapers "we are not a consumer society."
But he bemoaned that some Cubans use foreign currency sent from relatives abroad or brought to the island by tourists to set up illegal sources of profit. This while they continue to enjoy ration cards, free housing and health care and other social services.
My Spanish is too rusty to confirm that that last line is
cribbed from Granma,
but it's good to see that ordinary Cubans continue "to
enjoy" rationing (20
oz. of beans per
month, incidentally),
health care and free housing (Photo: Luxurious
rent-controlled apartment in Havana)
As is often the case, Castro has plenty of other things on his mind:
Castro singled out "the juicy profits" some Cubans earn running unlicensed taxi services, which include fleets of classic American vehicles.
Cuban officials concede the island's decrepit and overcrowded transportation system is on the point of collapse. Few Cubans are allowed to buy new or used cars, but can own hulking U.S. jalopies built before Castro's 1959 revolution.
Using scarce gasoline for profit "can compromise the independence and life of Cuba. We cannot fool around with that!" Castro wrote.
Full AP article.
reason Contributing Editor Glenn Garvin on the New York Times' Castrophilia here.
Axel|7.12.07 @ 2:59PM|#
They have a longer health expectancy than America!!!! More time to suffer!!!!
|7.12.07 @ 3:02PM|#
I watched a PBS documentary on Cuban boxing schools. Really sad and pitiful. There was a scene of a (thoroughly impoverished) family sitting around the diner table. The topic of conversation was how all the American troops sent to Iraq were Cubans and other Latin American immigrants lured into service with promises of citizenship, which the US will undoubtedly renege on.
|7.12.07 @ 3:03PM|#
If Michael Moore likes it there, it's good enough for me.
I bet they don't have guns in Cuba. I bet their president doesn't
lie to the people. I bet they don't have corporations that exploit
their workers.
Well, back to my $25/hour job.
|7.12.07 @ 3:04PM|#
Turning a more critical eye on Cuban life than he has since
falling ill and giving up power almost a year ago, the 80-year-old
Castro said in an essay published in state-run newspapers "we are
not a consumer society."
Can't argue with that.
To be a consumer society, you need people who have stuff, and a lot
of other people with the money to buy it from them.
Think the Beard still remembers what an 0 and 2 count is?
|7.12.07 @ 3:08PM|#
Where do you start with this one.
Free health care
Free apartments
Free food
What's the problem?
D.A. Ridgely|7.12.07 @ 3:09PM|#
Singling out taxi drivers for their "juicy profits" is a pretty good sign the economy isn't exactly thriving. Then again, if anyone would know about "irritating inequalities and privileges" in Cuba, it's Castro.
|7.12.07 @ 3:17PM|#
Before a crypto-socialist points out good life expectancy and literacy rates for Cuba, they are comparable with the rest of Latin America. Most nations in Latin America also have 98%+ literacy rates and 70+ year life expectancy. Its not that amazing. Just about any nation outside of Sub-Sahara Africa can boast that much.
|7.12.07 @ 3:21PM|#
Yeah, Cesar, those were impressive figures thirty years ago, but
in 2007?
OTOH, while we're on the "rest of Latin America" kick, just how
poor is Cuba compared to comparable countries like Nicaragua,
Jamaica, Hondorus, Venezuela, or the Dominican Republic?
I don't imagine the apartments in Managua have master suites,
either.
|7.12.07 @ 3:25PM|#
You know life in Cuba reminds me of a joke a Rabbi friend of mine told me.When a man found out he had only one year to live he doctor suggested he marry a Jewish Princess.Will I live longer said the man,no the doctor replied,it will just seem like you have.
|7.12.07 @ 3:27PM|#
OTOH, while we're on the "rest of Latin America" kick, just
how poor is Cuba compared to comparable countries like Nicaragua,
Jamaica, Hondorus, Venezuela, or the Dominican Republic?
I'd be willing to be money that the standard of living in Cuba is
worse than every other country in Latin America except for
Haiti.
I'd live in Brazil or Mexico any day over Cuba, I don't know about
you.
|7.12.07 @ 3:30PM|#
Fidel Castro is so fortunate. He never had to get himself
elected, which is in itself quite a "democratic" feat since he has
been the "popular" ruler of Cuba for nearly half a century. Plus,
he doesn't have an opposition party constantly calling for his
impeachment.
Yeah, the Cubans have had such a wonderful life during the reign of
Castro. Kind makes you wonder why Michael Moore and Cindy Sheehan
haven't moved to the island paradise, doesn't it?
|7.12.07 @ 3:33PM|#
Um, because they're not actually communists?
I think you people miss the point of the statements about Cuba's
health care system. It's not "Wonderful Cuba does it this way...,"
it's "Ever freaking Cuba, where they can't even afford to fix the
cars, can..."
|7.12.07 @ 3:34PM|#
"OTOH, while we're on the "rest of Latin America" kick, just how
poor is Cuba compared to comparable countries like Nicaragua,
Jamaica, Hondorus, Venezuela, or the Dominican Republic?"
Cuba was by far the richest and most advanced country in the region
when dumbass took over. Compare Cuba with Mexico, a country right
next to the US with close natural ties to the country. Mexico
avoided communism and even though it is stuck with a horribly
corrupt oligarchy similiar to Cuba's old regime is still today a
hundred times better off than Cuba despite being much poorer than
Cuba in the late 1950s.
|7.12.07 @ 3:36PM|#
But Joe the statements about Cuba are just lies. The elite in Cuba get great care but the majority of the country gets nothing. If you as an average person would rather be sick in Cuba than here, you are nuts. If anything Cuba's life expectancy and infant mortality figures just show how tough humans are. Even in a hell hole like Cuba people still somehow manage to live.
|7.12.07 @ 3:40PM|#
John,
You need to stop only reading articles that match your
preconditions, and then overstate what you've read, because you've
read is probably already an overstatement.
For example, you take a rational, defensible statement - Cuba was
relatively prosperpous before the revolution - and turn it into
"Cuba was by far the richest and most advanced country in the
region..."
You've never actually seen any figures comparing Cuba with the
region, have you?
|7.12.07 @ 3:44PM|#
OK joe, here are the figures for Cuba compared with
Mexico.
Cuba
Life Expectancy--77.08 years
Literacy Rate--99%
Mexico
Life Expectancy--76
Literacy Rate--92%
Wow, trade in all your political and economic freedoms, live under
the iron boot of a dictator, and you too can have a slight
increase in literacy and life expectancy!
|7.12.07 @ 3:47PM|#
"You need to stop only reading articles that match your
preconditions, and then overstate what you've read, because you've
read is probably already an overstatement."
Hi pot! I'm kettle. You're black.
|7.12.07 @ 3:48PM|#
I don't think Mexico is a good comparison, anyway. It's much larger, with much greater natural resources.
|7.12.07 @ 3:49PM|#
Why is is that some people are so eager to abandon all of their
healthy skepticism and reason and believe the statistics peddled by
the Castro government concerning free health care, housing and the
supposed 100% literacy rate? Those statistics aren't worth the
low-grade paper on which they are printed. Cuba has no independent
media to verify any of the ridiculous claims made by the Castro
government. If you believe that Cuba has 100% literacy, then you
also are probably one of those that believe when he wins reelection
with 98% of the vote, it was in a free and fair election. It never
ceases to amazes me the amount of individuals that, when told about
the abuses of the Castro government, they reply with the health
care and literacy garbage.
The best line I ever read about Castro and Cuba is beatifully
applicable here. It reads (I am paraphrasing this from memory): Why
is it whenever a jackboot smashes a Cuban face, a well-healed
liberal always comments how that face had free healthcare?
|7.12.07 @ 3:50PM|#
Hi, Roy, I'm joe.
I'm a liberal who does most of his political reading at the Reason
website.
So what DID you think of the latest issue of the American
Prospect?
Yeah, I didn't think so. Hi, kettle. I'm joe.
|7.12.07 @ 3:50PM|#
Joe;
You are obviously well read and knowledgible about Cuba.
Could you tell us just how many people have emigrated to Cuba in
the last 40 years? I know of one who tried and failed -- Lee Harvey
Oswald (well, may 50 years ago), but I just haven't heard the
actual numbers. Certainly, since it is undoubtedly a paradise
(There's certainly a lot of people who laud them for not being a
consumer society) there should be a bunch of people who move to
Fidel's fiefdom.
How about Haitians? They certainly are impoverished. Many of them
wind up in Cuba?
|7.12.07 @ 3:51PM|#
joe-
It also has a very, very large rural and extremely poor Indian
population that Cuba never had. But, lets try another Latin
country, a very small one with very few natural resources,
Uruguay.
Uruguay
Life expectancy--75
Literacy--98%
El Gabo Gringo|7.12.07 @ 3:51PM|#
OTOH, while we're on the "rest of Latin America" kick, just
how poor is Cuba compared to comparable countries like Nicaragua,
Jamaica, Hondorus, Venezuela, or the Dominican Republic?
As a measure of progress Cuba shouldn't be compared to it's
neighbors in the same way the USA shouldn't be compared to Mexico.
Instead, it should be compared to it's peers.
When Castro took over Cubans had per-capita incomes on par or
better than those of Europeans in comparable industries.
The fact that they would now struggle in comparison to their
banana-republic neighbors is a measure of just how decrepit Cuba
has become under Castro's iron fist.
|7.12.07 @ 3:51PM|#
Mark,
Maybe that line would have less resonance if there weren't so many
people who work hard in the richest country in the world and can't
see the doctor.
Timothy|7.12.07 @ 3:51PM|#
You could compare it to Costa Rica then. According to UNICEF:
Life Expectancy @ Birth: 78
Adult Literacy Rate 2000-2004 95%
Basically the same, and Costa Rica doesn't have a jackbooted thug
for a leader.
|7.12.07 @ 3:52PM|#
Narnian,
You are obviously well read and knowledgible about
Cuba.
Nope. That's why I'm asking questions.
Horrible, frightening questions.
El Gabo Gringo|7.12.07 @ 3:53PM|#
Let me try this again, I always mix up my html tags since I'm a
unix guy.
OTOH, while we're on the "rest of Latin America" kick, just how
poor is Cuba compared to comparable countries like Nicaragua,
Jamaica, Hondorus, Venezuela, or the Dominican Republic?
As a measure of progress Cuba shouldn't be compared to it's
neighbors in the same way the USA shouldn't be compared to Mexico.
Instead, it should be compared to it's peers.
When Castro took over Cubans had per-capita incomes on par or
better than those of Europeans in comparable industries.
The fact that they would now struggle in comparison to their
banana-republic neighbors is a measure of just how decrepit Cuba
has become under Castro's iron fist.
Timothy|7.12.07 @ 3:53PM|#
FYI: The same source claims the same life expectancy and 100% literacy rate for Cuba. Although per capita GNI is about 1/4 of Costa Rica's.
|7.12.07 @ 3:55PM|#
Thanks, Cesar, but actually, my question was "just how poor is
Cuba compared to comparable countries like Nicaragua, Jamaica,
Hondorus, Venezuela, or the Dominican Republic?"
Does the web page you're looking at have income figures?
And, perhaps, information on the countries I mentioned? (No reason,
really, except it's interesting that you decided to avoid them and
pick two entirely different countries, in response to my
quesiton).
|7.12.07 @ 3:56PM|#
Trinidad and Tobago also compare well to Cuba (98% literacy rate), are small, have very few natural resources and like Cuba also have a history of plantation slavery. Is that similar enough?
|7.12.07 @ 3:57PM|#
"Few Cubans are allowed to buy new or used cars"
How much do you want to bet that Castro is one of the "few" that
can buy a new car whenever he likes? I think Orwell's classic line
from Animal Farm, "some are created more equal than others", is
applicable when discussing Castro.
I often wonder how much differently the world would have turned out
if Castro had not been rejected by the Giants.
Timothy|7.12.07 @ 3:57PM|#
Panama has a life expectancy of 75 and a literacy rate of 92%, Nicaragua is worse off than Cuba (70 and unlisted) but it's not exactly a model of political stability either.
|7.12.07 @ 3:58PM|#
Costa Rica, while beautiful is basically a volcano filled jungle. It doesn't have anywhere near the advantages Cuba does. Cuba has great land for growing sugar and of course tobacco. It is a natural for tourism and had a very well educated and sophisticated population. Cuba was the pearl of Latin America before Castro.
|7.12.07 @ 3:58PM|#
Well, Cuba did have a middle class of sorts before the
revolution (one of my oldest friend's family--who all moved to
Tampa--was middle class). Now it just has a tiny, political upper
class and the rest of the people, who drive cars from the 50s. How
quaint. There's no question that Cuba was economically successful
before for a much, much larger percentage of its population than
today. ¡Viva la Revolucion!
The Cuban government is oppressive, corrupt, and indefensible.
Castro has amassed a personal fortune that is probably sufficient
to improve the standard of living of the island all by itself. He's
such a hero.
|7.12.07 @ 3:59PM|#
El Gabo Gringo,
When Castro took over, European countries' economies were
artifically low because of the Second World War. They actually had
pre-existing industrial sectors, scientific and research
institutions, and the other hallmarks of a post-industrial
revolution economy. France and Belgium aren't really Cuba's "peers"
in any meaningful sense - their GDPs per capita were similar for
one brief and unrepresentative period.
|7.12.07 @ 3:59PM|#
Jamaica is slightly lower than Cuba on both fronts (75 years and
89%), Venezuela is 73 and 93%, Honduras is 69 and 80%, Dominican
Republic is 74 and 87%.
The only country that looks that bad in comparison is Honduras.
|7.12.07 @ 4:01PM|#
See, I keep reading assertions that Cuba is terribly economically deprived. The evidence people keep providing - the roughly equivalent literacy and life expectancy rates - seem to suggest otherwise, that Cuba is roughly comparable with similar countries, economically.
Timothy|7.12.07 @ 4:01PM|#
joe:
Jamaica:
Life Expectancy: 71
Literacy 80%
Honduras: 68,70%
Venezuela: 73,93%
Dominican Republic: 68,87%
So Cuba appears to be better than some and worse than some in Latin
America.
|7.12.07 @ 4:01PM|#
Joe,
Some raw
numbers for you. A sample:
Universal health care is touted by Castro apologists as one of
the
most significant advances of the regime. In realty, the Castro
government
inherited an already advanced health sector. In 1957, Cuba's infant
mortality
rate (one of the most accurate proxies for overall health
conditions in a
country) was only 32 per 1000 livebirths, the lowest in Latin
America and the
13th lowest worldwide, ranking ahead of France, Belgium, West
Germany,
Israel, Japan, Austria, Italy, Spain and Portugal. Today Cuba
stands 24th
worldwide, and this omits mention of the staggering abortion rate
of 0.71
abortions per livebirth in 1991, which reduces infant mortality
by
terminating high-risk pregnancies. Cuba had the sad distinction of
having
more than double the abortion rate of any industrialized country in
that
year. In 1957, Cuba's 128 physicians and dentist per 1000
population was at
the level of the Netherlands and ahead of the United States and the
United
Kingdom.
Castro's just ticked off that his control isn't absolute, a typical
narcissistic reaction.
And yes, I have visited Cuba and talked to the locals (I'm
Canadian), and they are patiently waiting for the old boy to die.
Cuba, remember, has lots of tourism now. The people can see pretty
clearly that the tourists, who are not Americans so no jingoist
excuses, are w-a-y richer than they are. Lotta South Americans and
Euros in the mix.
Whatever else Castro controls, he can't keep Cubans from talking.
He tries to - a Cuban outside the tourist industry is technically
forbidden from talking with a tourist and will get rousted for
doing so, coupla hours in jail and all that. Same thing if he/she
is just plain "caught" on a beach where tourists are.
But the people put two & two together anyway.
Timothy|7.12.07 @ 4:01PM|#
You can look the GNI per capita numbers up yourself, they're all on that UNICEF page.
|7.12.07 @ 4:02PM|#
Joe-
Do you think life expectancy and literacy rates are the only
measures for standard of living? Have you ever tried--I don't
know--GDP per capita? Or phones/TVs/cars per person?
|7.12.07 @ 4:03PM|#
But he bemoaned that some Cubans use foreign currency sent
from relatives abroad or brought to the island by tourists to set
up illegal sources of profit. This while they continue to enjoy
ration cards, free housing and health care and other social
services.
Of course, the really infuriating thing about this is that the
"they continue to enjoy..." line is the AP reporter's analysis, not
Castro's.
El Gabo Gringo|7.12.07 @ 4:03PM|#
Thanks, Cesar, but actually, my question was "just how poor
is Cuba compared to comparable countries like Nicaragua, Jamaica,
Hondorus, Venezuela, or the Dominican Republic?"
Joe, if it's figures you want, they are at your fingerips online,
assuming there are figures on Cuban wealth & GDP that are
accurate/trustworthy.
My question to you is, why would those figures be relevant? Was
Cuba on par with those countries before?
Mike|7.12.07 @ 4:03PM|#
"Maybe that line would have less resonance if there weren't so
many people who work hard in the richest country in the world and
can't see the doctor."
A baldfaced lie. Anyone in America can see an emergency room doctor
any time they like. And they'll only have to wait in line hours,
instead of years or decades as in your average socialist
utopia.
And while we're at it, could you stop referring to it as "FREE
healthcare?" There is no such thing, and you know it. Or ought to,
anyway.
El Gabo Gringo|7.12.07 @ 4:05PM|#
When Castro took over, European countries' economies were
artifically low because of the Second World War.
Castro took over 15 years after the war in Europe ended, LOL. Joe,
at first I thought you were sincere and were being bombarded by
pissed of Cubans. After the mental acrobatics displayed in that
answer, I no longer think you are sincere.
Thanks.
El Gabo
Charitin|7.12.07 @ 4:06PM|#
Scores of Cuban medical professionals sent to Venezuela in
exchange for oil have crossed over the border into Colombia and
defected.
The only defector INTO Cuba that I can think of was Huey Newton of
Black Panthers fame. He defected BACK a few years later with his
illusions smashed to shite and a few stories to tell.
|7.12.07 @ 4:06PM|#
Given the excellent state of health care in Cuba, you'd think it
would be the poor people from the U.S. building leaky rafts and
trying to float down there. I wonder why we don't see more people
voting with their feet? All the traffic seems to be in the other
direction!
And as for the the embargo: why would a country with a vibrant and
equitable Socialist economy such as Cuba want to trade with a
country suffering through the late stages of capitalism? Ask anyone
on DailyKos and they'll tell you, the U.S. economy is in the tank.
What would Cubans want to buy from us, Herbalife franchises?
|7.12.07 @ 4:08PM|#
I'm with Mark - I have no faith that the statistics supplied are
accurate.
I recently got into a discussion about immigration with someone and
used 4.6% unemployment as one of my arguments. He said that figure
was "way off." We got off on this ridiculous tangent about the
politicization of the Congressional Budget Office, the proper way
to collect unemployment data including the differences between the
household method, the payroll method, and his obvious favorite, the
"I saw two guys the other day that need work" method. Afterwards he
said the number was "closer to 20%."
The same person accepts Cuba's stated literacy and life expectancy
statistics as canon. Go figure.
|7.12.07 @ 4:10PM|#
Wanderer,
Those aren't actually raw numbers. They are comparitive figures,
surrounded by a great deal of bile.
That said, it's inarguable that the Cuban economy has grown at a
lower rate than Western Europe, Japan, and Israel. For some fairly
obvious reasons, those industrial socieities are going to show
higher growth rates, especially considering the immediate post-WW2
period that is the beginning of the time frame in question.
|7.12.07 @ 4:12PM|#
Cesar,
Do you think life expectancy and literacy rates are the only
measures for standard of living?
No, I don't. That's why I asked YOU why you were providing those
figures when I asked about wealth
|7.12.07 @ 4:14PM|#
El Gabo Gringo,
My question to you is, why would those figures be relevant? Was
Cuba on par with those countries before?
They'd be more illuminating than comparing Cuba to the United
States. What countries do you think would make the best comparison
with Cuba?
|7.12.07 @ 4:16PM|#
Mike,
Anyone in America can see an emergency room doctor any time
they like
And if you aren't an emergent case, they can kick you out the door.
If you are treated, and have no insurance, they send you the bill
anyway, then send it to a collections agency.
How deluded does one have to be to think that poor people without
health insurance can see the doctor for regular visits?
|7.12.07 @ 4:18PM|#
El Gabo Gringo,
Please do some reading about modern European history, because you
don't know what you're talking about. Yes, European countries were
still recovering from World War 2 in the 50s.
My, you're insecure about uncomfortable questions. Common for
ideologues.
|7.12.07 @ 4:20PM|#
Cesar,
Jamaica, obviously. Much less political oppression.
Now, just as a reminder, the conversation is about wealth.
|7.12.07 @ 4:21PM|#
Lets say you don't care about politics. where would you rather be born, just out of material considerations?
Wanderer|7.12.07 @ 4:23PM|#
Joe,
OK, call them comparative raw numbers, then, and they show Cuba
losing ground, not gaining.
Sorry, but the Cubans themselves are smart, they've seen all this
stuff up close and personal, and they find ways to learn more. As
one of them told me, "For 18 years my teachers taught me to think;
then, when I became a man, the govt ordered me not to." His words,
Joe, not mine.
Why do you think Castro has to run the island like a prison,
entrapping the people there and censoring outside
communication?
The real reason he gets outside support, IMHO, is that there are
always those, like yourself, who fear a meritocracy and long for a
a stable hierarchy where their relative position is enshrined,
regardless of the absolute misery. So we hear calls for status and
laws based on immutable characteristics (sex, race etc) rather than
ability, as well as support for those like Castro who would put
everyone together at the bottom.
One by one, the authoritarian philosophies copme, then go: Fascism,
Communism, now Islamism. When one fails, there's always another,
cuz there are always a few, like you, who lack faith in
themselves.
|7.12.07 @ 4:25PM|#
I think people are confusing two levels of the "perks of Cuba". There is first the argument that Cuba may do some things better than the US. (and why do we believe numbers released from a dictatorship?) This is and ENDS argument. From my understanding, libertarianism is a MEANS argument--it is not what is accomplished by a given society that matters, only that they are free to make individual choices to accomplish whatever is accomplished. It just so happens to turn out that the ENDS generated by a free society (MEANS) will, in the middle and long run always be superior to the ENDS generated by an unfree society (MEANS). Do not confuse ENDS and MEANS as being the same when having these dialogues or there is no chance for an actual exchange of ideas.
Kent|7.12.07 @ 4:27PM|#
Joe,
And if you aren't an emergent case, they can kick you out the door. If you are treated, and have no insurance, they send you the bill anyway, then send it to a collections agency.
How deluded does one have to be to think that poor people without health insurance can see the doctor for regular visits?
Well, there's this:
Faye Chao (Uninsured 26-year-old):
My rent currently is $475 plus utilities. In total, my cost comes out to about $530 a month.
Stuart Browning:
What's your average monthly income?
Faye Chao:
On average my monthly income is twenty three hundred. And it's not taxed. Sometimes, you know, it varies. I save almost a thousand dollars a month.
Stuart Browning:
So why don't you have health insurance?
Faye Chao:
I'm young right now and currently don't need health insurance. Probably don't want to spend $200 a month.
Stuart Browning:
In this state, a 26-year-old non-smoker with no preexisting conditions can get a policy for $96 a month.
Faye Chao:
It's 96 dollars a month, but that's twelve hundred dollars a year you're spending on health insurance. And honestly, I feel it's ridiculous that we live in a first world country where I have to pay for basic health care.
...
Faye Chao:
I bike everywhere in the city, so I have gotten hit by drivers twice - and one time I ended up in the hospital. No, I didn't have health insurance, but I was treated - and billed for it later.
Stuart Browning (off camera):
Umm hmm. How much was the bill for? Do you remember?
Faye Chao:
Honestly I don't because I didn't bother to pay for it.
|7.12.07 @ 4:27PM|#
Hey joe, I think you missed the point in the first 95% of my
post. You know, the part about how Cuba's boasts concerning its
health care and literacy are total garbage. But even if they were
true, so what. Does that excuse the treatment the Cuban people
receive and the deprivation they suffer solely because of the
Castro government? Given your response to my post, evidently it
does. No free speech, freedom of religion, free press, free
elections, no civil rights at all for that matter. But hey, at
least they don't have to wait for a doctor. Its beyond chutzpah
that individuals with this attitude feel they can lecture to the
United States. Your moral compass is not pointing in the wrong
direction, it's missing a needle.
Of course the notion that no wait is involved in a socialist health
care system in a dictatorship like Cuba, given the track record of
liberal democracies like Canada, England, Sweden etc., is total
garbage that is almost beyond need for rebuttal. Evidently some
people would believe the world is flat if it were printed in
Granma.
Joe, I can go and see the movie Sicko myself; I don't need you to
regurgitate it for me on these message boards.
|7.12.07 @ 4:28PM|#
One thing left out of the equation is the massive amount of debt Castro accumulated. My Cuban friends tell me all the time about how the country once had a great deal of wealth on hand and it's all gone now. I'm Castro probably spent a good portion of that $$$ on keeping in power...
|7.12.07 @ 4:31PM|#
Ah, an ask-joe thread. I heart these.
joe, is it true that you're a stupid moron with an ugly face and a
big butt, and your butt smells, and you like to kiss your own
butt?
El Gabo Gringo|7.12.07 @ 4:33PM|#
El Gabo Gringo,
Please do some reading about modern European history, because you
don't know what you're talking about. Yes, European countries were
still recovering from World War 2 in the 50s.
My, you're insecure about uncomfortable questions. Common for
ideologues.
Nice Joe. You've gone from mental acrobatics to name calling.
Let me put it another way Joe: you are a troll. Like it or not,
that's what you are doing on this thread right now and I have a
no-troll rule I abide by, so c-ya
Wanderer|7.12.07 @ 4:34PM|#
Hey Joe,
Know what else strikes you about Havana when you're there? The
collapsing buildings, that's what, 500 per year or so just in the
central district.
And the buses, which are literally semi-trailers with cattle cars
for the people. Hot, hot, hot, and they only come by every hour or
so in most places, when they run on time that is.
And the sidewalks, with huge holes in them wherever there had been
a grate, because folks have to steal those to get metal.
And all the clandestine little biz's because the peoples' food
rations are not enough to survive on, literally, so they have to
break the law and make money some other way.
And the cars, Joe, only the tourists ride in new cars. Oh, and the
govt officials, too.
And the soldiers with their machine guns in hand everywhere
guarding the city. From what? Bermuda shorts? Man, they looked so
hot and so bored.
And the regular people,sitting around with nothing to do while the
building, on whose stoop they sat, crumbled around them. They
weren't lazy, tho; those with a task were quite industrious.
And the gorgeous music everywhere. But I suppose Castro invented
that, too. What a guy!
|7.12.07 @ 4:36PM|#
It's obvious joe can take care of himself, but I missed the part where joe was backing Castro. Seems to me he just wants some facts.
|7.12.07 @ 4:37PM|#
Wanderer--
That list makes Mexico under the PRI oligarchs look like a great
place to live by comparison.
|7.12.07 @ 4:45PM|#
"How deluded does one have to be to think that poor people
without health insurance can see the doctor for regular
visits".
Hey, Joe, I am an oral surgeon, therefore I have a feeling I am a
little bit more acquainted with the health care system than you
are. If not, I apologize. I have news for you. Most of the doctors
I know see indigent non-emergent patients all of the time. On top
of that, most states have an extremely broad view of what
constitutes emergent and thus what cannot be denied treatment.
Furthermore, you are the deluded one if you think the ER sees only
emergent cases. Many, if not most, would be considered non-emergent
cases. That is because it is illegal in most cases to turn away
individuals who seek treatment by visiting the ER, emergent or
not.
And for someone who obviously fancies himself an expert on
healthcare systems, it amuses me that you imply socialist
healthcare systems, be they in Cuba or in a liberal democracy, are
free. Tell that to people who are paying a rather large chunk of
their paycheck (although considering the economy of Cuba, large has
to be a relative term)to the government in the form of health care
taxes to support the "free" health care they are receiving (given
the track record of most socialist systems,receiving weeks or even
months later).
TallDave|7.12.07 @ 4:51PM|#
Cuba is not just another poor Latin country. IIRC, at the time
of the revolution, they were the richest Latin country, by a lot,
nearly comparable to the U.S. Can't remember for sure, but I'll try
to Google some stats later, if I have time.
How do they compare to running dog capitalists like, say, Puerto
Rico? That would seem to be a fair comparison.
"I'm young right now and currently don't need health insurance.
"
That was my health insurance policy when I was in my twenties too.
I didn't want to buy a reverse lottery ticket.
|7.12.07 @ 4:57PM|#
I, um, think "Joe" might have taken a break to go search his "The Nation" archives for some better talking points....
TallDave|7.12.07 @ 4:57PM|#
Overall though, you know what this reminds me of?
Those arguments in the 1980s about whether Soviet citizens were
REALLY worse off than Western Europeans.
Timothy|7.12.07 @ 5:24PM|#
Joe: You want wealth figures, you asked how the literacy and
life expectancy rates compare.
GNI Per Capita, 2005 USD:
Cuba: 1170
Costa Rica: 4590
Guatemala: 2400
Jamaica: 3400
Honduras: 1190
Nicaragua: 910
Dominican Republic: 2370
Venezuela: 4810
So, again, it looks like Cuba is, at best, middle of the back in
terms of wealth per citizen in Latin America. Of course 2005 was
before Chavez started trying in earnest to completely destroy
Venezuela, so that number might be much lower now.
Timothy|7.12.07 @ 5:26PM|#
Also, note, the countries you requested information on: Jamaica, Honduras, Dominican Republic and Venezuela. ALL of those have higher GNI per capita than Cuba does, although Honduras is basically the same.
|7.12.07 @ 5:42PM|#
Singling out taxi drivers for their "juicy profits" is a
pretty good sign the economy isn't exactly thriving.
But it does explain why all those Cuban cabbies are driving around
in tuxedoes, top hats and monocles.
|7.12.07 @ 5:52PM|#
Maybe that line would have less resonance if there weren't
so many people who work hard in the richest country in the world
and can't see the doctor.
Bullshit. Every single person in the US is guaranteed access to the
best care in the world, no questions asked. All they have to do is
go to the emergency room.
Most of the defenses of Cuba can be filed under the "But the trains
run on time" school of "ends justify the means". YMMV.
TallDave|7.12.07 @ 6:03PM|#
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba
Since the 1959 Cuban Revolution, living standards in Cuba have
been on a downwards spiral. In 1962, the government instituted food
rationing policies, which were exacerbated following the collapse
of the Soviet Union. In addition, Cuba has been experiencing a
housing shortage because of the failure of the housing market's
failure to keep pace with increasing demand. As late as 2001,
studies have shown that the average Cuban's standard of living was
lower than before the downturn of the post-Soviet period. Paramount
issues have been state salaries failing to meet personal needs
under the state rationing system chronically plagued with
shortages. As the variety and amount of rationed goods available
declined, Cubans increasingly turned to the black market to obtain
basic food, clothing, household, and health amenities. The informal
sector is characterized by what many Cubans call sociolismo.In
addition, petty corruption in state industries, such as the
pilferage of state assets to sell on the black market, is still
common.[60] In recent years, since the rise of Venezuela's
democratic socialist President Hugo Chávez, Venezuelan economic aid
has enabled Cuba to improve economically. Venezuela's assistance of
the Cuban economy comes chiefly through its supply of up to 80,000
barrels of oil per day in exchange for professional services and
agricultural products. In the last several years, Cuba has rolled
back some of the market oriented measures undertaken in the 1990s.
In 2004, Cuban officials publicly backed the Euro as a "global
counter-balance to the U.S. dollar", and eliminated the US currency
from circulation in its stores and businesses. Increased US
government restrictions on travel by Cuban-Americans and on the
numbers of dollars they could transport to Cuba strengthened Cuban
government control over dollars circulating in the economy. In the
last decade, Cubans had received between US$600 million and US$1
billion annually, mostly from family members in the U.S.[61]. This
number is influenced by the fact that U.S. government forbids its
citizens to send more than $1,200 to Cuba.
A welfare state dependent on welfare from other states.
|7.12.07 @ 6:30PM|#
Ah, joe is one of those trolls who doesn't really care to
debate. He's just interested in confusing the issues.
For instance, neither infant mortality rates or life expectancy is
a good comparisons of health systems or wealth or anything else.
Why? Because they aren't measured the same way in every country
(and since the data are reported by the countries in question, some
of the data is highly suspicious, to say the least). In the US,
just about any fetus delivered with a heartbeat (the most obvious
example of an exception is in some cases of abortion) is included
in the infant mortality rates. In Cuba (as I remember) only babies
born after 6 months of gestation, weighing more than 1000g and
breathing on their own count. If they measured the way we do, their
infant mortality rate would be much, much higher.
Life expectancy when figured from birth to death is distorted not
only by choice of infant mortality measures but by cultural
factors. For instance, the US has a very large car culture, and as
a rate we have a very high (comparatively) automobile death rate.
(I don't know how many Cubans die in car wrecks each year, but I'll
bet it's low.) Those factors don't really relate to health
care.
If you want a better measure of health care, try to find life
expectancy from age 50 or so, when most bad health problems kick
in. The evidence seems to show that with reasonably adequate food,
fairly clean water, and soem reasonable sewage practices just about
anyone can live to be 75 or so. How much you enjoy those last 20
years or so is a different kettle of fish.
Joe will no doubt try again, on this thread or in the future to
cloud the waters, but any realistic comparison of Cuba to just
about any other country except Haiti would show that Cuba sucks,
big time.
Of course, one way to settle this would be for Joe to say whether
or not he would be in favor of having the Cuban system instituted
in the US and run by George W Bush instead of Castro. If not, then
he's an even more obvious fraud and hypocrite.
|7.12.07 @ 6:36PM|#
Well, all you need to do is compare the performance of Castro's administration to the performance of other Cuban administrations over the past few decades. Oh, wait...
Paul|7.12.07 @ 6:39PM|#
If not, I apologize. I have news for you. Most of the
doctors I know see indigent non-emergent patients all of the time.
On top of that, most states have an extremely broad view of what
constitutes emergent and thus what cannot be denied treatment.
Furthermore, you are the deluded one if you think the ER sees only
emergent cases.
Mark, I applaud you, loudly. I work in healthcare too, as does my
wife. Anyone who works in healthcare for more than about a week
immediately notices just how much healthcare gets firehosed out to
indigent patients.
One of the primary problems with the American healthcare system is
related to the fact that the ER is increasingly used as primary
care by both indigent patients and patients able to pay.
People routinely visit the ER for what are considered self-limiting
conditions: colds, flu etc.
There are many improvements that could be made to the U.S. style
system, few of which require socialistic (european style)
endeavors.
Here's a fascinating article about a new way of looking at
healthcare with some primary care "boutique" clinics opening up in
Seattle. It's hard to say if it will succeed. But it's interesting,
nonetheless.
Paul|7.12.07 @ 6:44PM|#
Why? Because they aren't measured the same way in every
country (and since the data are reported by the countries in
question, some of the data is highly suspicious, to say the
least).
Just to pile on, I for one am getting tired of having to even
debate this. The methods of counting infant mortality differ so
much between countries, that it should be one of the last factors
considered when comparing healthcare systems.
Some countries throw babies out in medical waste if they're born a
certain amount premature, whereas the U.S. still tries to save them
in the NICU. In essence, many countries consider a baby born at
say, 25 weeks a "do-over".
Wanderer|7.12.07 @ 6:45PM|#
Joe might also notice that no residents of Cuba have commented
on this thread. Why do you think that is, Joe?
Oh yeah, now I remember: Castro won't allow them open access to the
Net. As he does with the people themselves, he is trying to keep
the truth from getting out, not in.
robc|7.12.07 @ 6:48PM|#
I don't think Mexico is a good comparison, anyway. It's much
larger, with much greater natural resources.
So lets choose a "randomly" chosen latin american country half the
size of Cuba: Costa Rica. I have no idea which has the greatest
natural resources, but Cuba was (almost assuredly, I didnt look it
up) richer 60 years ago.
Today, Costa Rica has a GDP-PPP of $12.5k per capita
Cuba $4k
robc|7.12.07 @ 6:55PM|#
Seems to me he just wants some facts.
The CIA world factbook is publicly available on this new fangled
intarwebby thingy. Easy to find too, with this cutting edge
"google" tool. Anyone who wants numbers can look them up
themselves.
|7.12.07 @ 8:24PM|#
Cesar,
Just in material terms? I'd rather be born in Jamaica if I was a
doctor's son, I'd rather be born in Cuba if my mother was a
housewife and my father was gone. Considering all the angles,
Rawls-style, I'd say Jamaica, but it's close.
|7.12.07 @ 8:30PM|#
Wander,
First, you're a prick for indulging in all that psychobabble about
me without knowing a damn thing except that I ask questions people
don't like to hear. Call me back when you get a masters, Mr.
Meritocracy.
Second, OK, call them comparative raw numbers, then, and they
show Cuba losing ground, not gaining. They show it losing
ground to a carefully-chosen set of countries in vastly different
circumstances - countries with industrial development going back
decades or centuries, during the period that their economies began
to pick up after they were devestated by World War 2.
Seriously, Germany, France, Japan vs. Cuba, and that didn't suggest
anything to you? WTF?
|7.12.07 @ 8:33PM|#
Mark,
Go tell it so someone who cares. I'm not interested in discussing
Sicko, I'm not interested in why you can explain away the data that
make your argument bullshit, I'm not interested in whatever
completely-irrelevant Cuba-bashing you're looking to engage
in.
There are plenty of people who actually do think Cuba is a well-run
country, and who really do want to argue about Sicko. Go find one,
and stop bothering me.
|7.12.07 @ 8:35PM|#
Just as a blanket statement, if you've taken the last couple of hours to post random statement under the heading "bad stuff 'bout Cuba," just read the above comment to Mark as applying to you.
|7.12.07 @ 8:38PM|#
Hey, Mark, you're a highly-paid specialist who's several steps
removed from the general practice of day-to-day medicine.
An arrogant surgeon who assumes he knows more than he does but is
clueless about the actual experience of patients looking for
medical care?
Nah, can't be. Not an Oral Surgeon!
|7.12.07 @ 8:45PM|#
LOL, sometimes you people are just too easy:
JorgXMcKie | July 12, 2007, 6:30pm | #
Ah, joe is one of those trolls who doesn't really care to debate.
He's just interested in confusing the issues.For instance, neither
infant mortality rates or life expectancy is a good comparisons of
health systems or wealth or anything else.
joe | July 12, 2007, 3:55pm | #
Thanks, Cesar, but actually, my question was "just how poor is Cuba
compared to comparable countries like Nicaragua, Jamaica, Hondorus,
Venezuela, or the Dominican Republic?"
Does the web page you're looking at have income figures?
Three and a half hours - three and a half hours! - before you wrote
your "Gotcha!" post about how I'm confusing issues about wealth by
asking about life expectancy and literacy rates, I was pointing out
to another commenter that his life expectancy and literacy rate
figures weren't good proxies for what I was asking, which was
wealth.
Do you people even bother to read and understand the words on the
screen, or do you just see someone not toeing the party line on
Cuba and start pasting in anti-Castro arguments you've saved as
macros?
|7.12.07 @ 8:49PM|#
robc,
Yes, I could have researched the CIA fact book, but with so many
people commenting so freely on the subject of Cuba, I figured there
was a certainl level of expertise available, and I could save
myself the trouble.
I guess not. Or rather, there is a high level of sophistication in
the repetition of talking points about Cuba, but when it comes to a
factual question for which data that an actual expert would be
familiar with...not so much, really.
Anyone, you are quite right, in the future I will not assume that
the ability to hold forth in passionate terms about what ails Cuba
indicates a degree of knowledge about Cuba on the speaker's
part.
Lesson learned.
|7.12.07 @ 9:22PM|#
Straight from the man himself, folks: don't bother trying to debate joe until you've completed graduate school. Only then will you know everything, just like him.
|7.12.07 @ 9:39PM|#
Yawn.
Read gooder, Jim Bob. Debate me all you want - just don't try to
pull rank.
michael pwlfv|7.12.07 @ 9:50PM|#
Why do people believe in what Castro says or Cuba
publishes?
He has credibility because BushHitler and he do not talk. Then we
don't have to consider that something he says might be from
BushHitler. As Goebbels observed, 'the big lie' is the best.
Completely denying truth seems to just work better at keeping
people from thinking to the truth.
|7.12.07 @ 10:00PM|#
Holy crap, joe. Seven consecutive posts?
Gary Gunnels would be impressed if he were still here. Or...is
he?
robc|7.12.07 @ 10:03PM|#
joe,
I gave you the data you were asking about (wealth, or at least GNP)
before I criticized you for not looking it up yourself. No
comment?
I will point out that Costa Rica probably has the largest
percentage of libertarians in its national parliament/congress of
any country in the Americas (World?). Also, CR has no military
anymore (although, with their neighbors, I would consider having
one). Sure, they are poor compared to USA/Canada/Europe but they
are fighting hard with Chile for that #3 spot in the western
hemisphere.
Sal Paradise|7.12.07 @ 10:07PM|#
My oh my. Quite a string of rants by our comrade joe. What's
wrong buddy, are people asking questions you don't want to
hear?
You're perfectly capable of doing your own research, chief. Try it
sometime instead of asking inane questions until you get the answer
you want to hear.
robc|7.12.07 @ 10:07PM|#
Holy crap, joe. Seven consecutive posts?
Its been nearly 3.5 hours (THREE AND ONE HALF HOURS!!!!!!) since I
gave him the info he was asking for and he still hasnt responded to
it. Instead, he responded to my next post telling him to look it up
himself.
Sal Paradise|7.12.07 @ 10:14PM|#
Strange you had that long pause. I know you work for the city, but did they actually make you do some real work today?
Wanderer|7.12.07 @ 10:36PM|#
Joe,
I hit a nerve, did I?
Hint: increased serotonin might help. Try a glass of warm milk and
a cookie before you go to bed tonite.
Milk has tryptophan which is used to make serotonin. The cookie
will cause insulin to be released and insulin mops up tryptophan's
chemical competitors in the ol' carcass, so more of it will be used
to make the aforementioned serotonin.
[Serotonin itself induces feelings of higher status, altho it
appears that not only can serotonin cause you to feel high status,
but high status, the real thing, can also induce more serotonin; a
two-way street! Think happy thoughts, Joe; it's important.]
Lastly, much of the serotinin will then be used in turn to make
melatonin, so you are liable to fall asleep dreaming of a free
Cuba. You have been warned.
|7.12.07 @ 10:52PM|#
And let us not forget that Cuba has one of the highest rates of emmigration failure in the Western Hemisphere.
|7.13.07 @ 1:27AM|#
Joe, you are an idiot who knows absolutely nothing about the
health care system in the United States. You proved that with your
comment concerning emergent care. Furthermore, I can't rebut your
data concerning the Cuban healthcare system because you haven't
provided any. And if your comment about the level of care provided
in the ER was not enough to disqualify you from serious debate, you
are actually gullible enough to believe the literacy and health
care data provided by the Cuban government. And anyone who can
actually claim, without a hint of sarcasm, that there is no wait
time in a socialized system is too stupid to debate seriously.
Sorry, but I don't usually expend a whole lot of energy arguing
with people who have to wear a helmet to the dinner table. But,
perhaps I am being too hard on you. Evidently you have a masters
degree and as we all know, that is roughly equivalent to being
infallible.
But, I do love reading crap from people who think they know more
about the health care system than people who actually make a living
from that system. Why, exactly do you feel you are an expert on the
health care system? Is it because you read some polemic on the
internet? Give me a break. I would be willing to bet your
experience with, and knowledge of, the day-to-day workings of the
healthcare system of the United States is next to nil. Evidently
the mere act of pointing this out makes one arrogant. So be
it.
Maybe we are being unfair to you. After all you claim it is wrong
to compare data from industrialized nations to the workers'
paradise that is Cuba. What a convenient way for you to discount
legitimate criticisms of Castro's regime while at the same time
rigging the debate so you can't lose. Evidently the only people who
can fairly criticize the Cuban system are other dictators. And, of
course, geniuses with masters degrees.
However, in an effort to be fair, I believe everyone on this
message board should give you the opportunity to tell us why
exactly you feel Cuba is so great. I will listen with an open mind
to the reasons why you feel we are unfairly maligning Castro with
our "anti-Castro talking points" (as if it's possible to condense a
record of 50 years of brutality into a couple of sentences). I am
dying to read why you think, after 50 years of oppression, Castro
is so cute and cuddly.
P.S. It takes an IQ of about 12 to get a masters degree. Please
don't break your arm patting yourself on the back. I would hate for
you to have to go to Canada and then fly to Cuba to have that
fixed
|7.13.07 @ 3:54AM|#
What's to be lauded about high literacy rates in a country where you can get thrown in jail for reading a newspaper/magazine/book/essay not approved of by Castro?
|7.13.07 @ 3:56AM|#
And I'd be willing to bet Cubans in Miami can read pretty well
too.
Without, you know, living under a 45 year dictatorship and all
that.
coelakanth|7.13.07 @ 3:57AM|#
I think joe just learned a lesson about posting when one's blood
is up: it's always a bad idea.
Dude, I like what you do here, but you seriously never responded to
the data after it was given to you, and your attack on Mark's
credentials was disastrous because it was disingenuous. To suggest
that someone who actually works in the health care industry has no
greater understanding of said industry than a layman comes off as
mouth-breathing ignorance or intentional poisoning of the well. In
other words it stank of desperation. You could have claimed
anecdotal evidence, but didn't. Granted, there were a lot of
unnecessary personal attacks thrown your way, which I wish wasn't a
problem on these boards, but still. Bad form throwing the graduate
degree out there. What's next, paychecks and penis size? Sorry, but
someone who works in the industry does get to pull rank (to an
extent). I remember you doing the same on the old Kelo
threads.
If you're gonna play the bad guy on the boards without the troll
label you've gotta do better. It might not be fair, but that's the
way it goes when you're on the other team's turf.
|7.13.07 @ 8:13AM|#
robc,
Thanks for posting that data.
Costa Rica is an interesting case. Remember the Arias Peace
Plan?
Keep up, Sal, I haven't worked for the city in two years. It's the
glorious private sector for me! Pays better.
Wanderer,
I hit a nerve, did I? No, you're just a run of the mill
dick.
Mark,
If, as you admit, I haven't written anything about the Cuban health
care system, why do persist in addressing counter-arguments to
me?
coelakanth,
Do you actuall know any surgeons? Or have any idea what their
connection to the people who show up in a waiting room is?
If you did, the observation that surgeons overestimate their
understanding of health-access issues would make a lot more sense
to you. Writing "I know about the access poor people have to health
care, because I'm an oral surgeon" is roughly equivalent to writing
"I know about the availability of low-income housing, because I'm a
roofer."
|7.13.07 @ 8:15AM|#
What respose would have liked when the data was posted?
How about, "OK." Does that work for you?
|7.13.07 @ 8:41AM|#
Joe - I may not agree with your health care policy preferences, but you have played this thread like a fiddle. By simply sitting back and asking questions, you had a half dozen twenty-somethings running around doing all kinds of reading and research to prove to you that Cuba is a bad place. Bravo Puppetmaster!
|7.13.07 @ 8:43AM|#
However, I don't see where you address Warty's concerns. What say you, joe, to the charges of having a smelly butt and a fondness for kissing it?
|7.13.07 @ 9:09AM|#
Once that embargo is lifted, talk about a win-win:
Cubans have an assload of US 1950's autos that desperately need
replacing, but they have no cash.
American car collectors have an assload of cash waiting to be spent
on 1950's autos.
|7.13.07 @ 9:14AM|#
Writing "I know about the access poor people have to health
care, because I'm an oral surgeon" is roughly equivalent to writing
"I know about the availability of low-income housing, because I'm a
roofer."
Eh, no. It would be about the equivalent of "I know about the
availability of low-income housing because I provide housing."
Minion of URKOBOLD (VM)|7.13.07 @ 10:51AM|#
JorgXMcKie | July 12, 2007, 6:30pm | #
Ah, joe is one of those trolls who doesn't really care to debate.
He's just interested in confusing the issues.
tweet.
newbie not knowing joe is not a troll. and for acting all, like,
you know, n shit. (basically being an asshole)
URKOBOLD will violate your neighbor's shed with a rutabaga wrapped
in crisp lettuce and a peanut sauce.
IF YOU PERSIST IN SUCH SILLINESS, THE PUNISHMENT LEVEL WILL
INCREASE UNTIL YOU HAVE TO WATCH THE ENTIRE MOVIE
GYMKATA AND WRITE AN ESSAY LINKING HOWARD ROARK'S
TRIALS AND TRIBULATIONS WITH FEZZIK'S.
THREE REFERENCES TO JASON ROBARDS MUST ALSO BE IN SAID ESSAY.
|7.13.07 @ 12:08PM|#
"If you did, the observation that surgeons overestimate their
understanding of health-access issues would make a lot more sense
to you. Writing "I know about the access poor people have to health
care, because I'm an oral surgeon" is roughly equivalent to writing
"I know about the availability of low-income housing, because I'm a
roofer."
I never claimed I was an expert on the healthcare system. I simply
stated my position within that system gave me more expertise in
relation to you. Of course given your statement concerning access
to care in an ER, which is a huge part of the health care debate, I
think the guy that delivers the "Highlights for kids" magazine to
my office has more knowledge of the healthcare system than you. And
your analogy is so inapt it serves as a further reflection of your
total ignorance concerning the healthcare system in this
country.
First, you foolishly made the statement that my knowledge of the
system is inadequate because I am a specialist and not a general
practictioner. Evidently, reading the term specialist made you
think all of my patients have wealth roughly equivalent to the GDP
of Lichtenstein and pay with bags of cash, thus I don't have to
deal with insurance companies, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. It doesn't
take a masters to realize you are an absolute idiot. Second, I have
news for you, wise one, specialists see patients based upon the
problems present, not the size of the bank account. I have seen
plenty of indigent patients in my career. I will reiterate, since
you evidently weren't bright enough to catch it the first ten times
it was written by various people: in a hospital setting, I am
required by law to see patients, even indigent ones, if they come
to the ER. I am thus well-acquainted, certainly moreso than you,
with the health access issues involved in providing care to
individuals who can't or won't pay. And unlike roofers, it's kind
of necessary for me to actually meet the individual to whom the
medical care is being provided. Maybe Cuba's health care system is
advanced to the point that the presence of the patient is
unnecessary, I don't know. Since you seem to fancy yourself both an
expert on health care and Cuba perhaps you can comment of that for
us.
But what I find most amazing of all about the debate to this point
is how frequently you seem to insult people about a lack of
credentials, yet you have failed to provide yours. I think I speak
for everyone you have insulted by asking exactly why you are an
expert on the topics being discussed. You have provided no
rationale at all as to why we should reject the arguments of people
who have an intimate knowledge of the health care system and except
your word instead. The same is true of your pathetically shoddy
'arguments" concerning Cuba. Evidently reading partisan talking
points, which seems to be the extent of your knowledge, is vastly
superior to the experience of individuals who have been dealing
with the system most of their adult lives. Forgive me for being
unimpressed with you and your laughable believe that having a
masters degree makes you an unimpeachable expert in anything.
|7.13.07 @ 12:25PM|#
"Granted, there were a lot of unnecessary personal attacks
thrown your way, which I wish wasn't a problem on these
boards..."
I can only speak for myself in this regard, but I responded in that
manner when it was not only implied, very condescendingly, that I
was ignorant, but was also explicitly written that I was
arrogant.
|7.13.07 @ 12:46PM|#
"and your laughable believe".
I did not realize until after I had posted that I mistakenly used
believe instead of belief.
coelakanth|7.13.07 @ 1:23PM|#
"What respose would have liked when the data was posted?
How about, "OK." Does that work for you?" -joe
I was thinking something along the lines of, "Hey, thanks for the
data, it has affected my perception of Cuba in this way..." or "not
affected my perception because...". Basically anything other than
your response which acknowledged statistics you asked for but did
nothing to address said statistics. I do agree it was funny that
you made other people do your research for you (3.5 hours to get
the data, oh noessss!!!), when I'm pretty damn well certain you
know about the CIA and UN databases.
By the way, you were bound to fail in this thread. Cuba is
indefensible on moral grounds. I mean that, indefensible (at least
here). It wouldn't matter if they had more money than Midas and a
health care system vastly superior to our own because it would come
at the cost of an entire nation's freedom. Your self-satisfied
"asking uncomfortable questions" stance has no place in this thread
because no, you haven't asked a single uncomfortable question.
Quite simply, the answers don't matter and you (should) know it. If
you think otherwise, you fail at asking provocative questions and
have no understanding of this magazine and its readers. If we
accepted tyranny with prosperity, we'd all love the United States
government (not that its petty tyrannies are on par with those of
Cuba in most cases).
Mark, name calling has come from both sides in this thread. I
actually don't think joe started it, but that's irrelevant. Name
calling makes it hard to isolate the pure trolls.
|7.15.07 @ 5:07PM|#
'Equal Sharing of Misery'
That's the plan of almost ALL democrats and way too many
Republicans (thus the title: Republi-Crat)!
|7.16.07 @ 1:39PM|#
Ironchef, good point - I'd never thought about that.
sage,
Actually, a roofer DOES provide housing. He isn't involved in the
aspect of the housing industry that would make him an expert on the
access poor people have to affordable housing.
Mark | July 12, 2007, 4:45pm | #
"How deluded does one have to be to think that poor people without
health insurance can see the doctor for regular visits".
From Mark, who knows an enormous amount about the access poor
people have to medical services:
Second, I have news for you, wise one, specialists see patients
based upon the problems present, not the size of the bank
account.
Yup, people without insurance sure do get in to see specialists a
lot! Why, Mark's even seen some! LoL.
|7.16.07 @ 1:41PM|#
coelikanth,
Since I didn't write a single word attempting to defend Cuba, your
fantasies about my failing to do so don't really matter.
Sorry asking about data makes your tummy hurt. Maybe you should
work on that.
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