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I Have Tape On My Mouth And I Must Scream
Via Boing Boing, here's how Venezuela's RCTV
station closed its news broadcast, the last before Hugo
Chavez's government replaced the station with a new
glory-of-Socialism network.
Boing Boing post here;
reason on Chavez
here.
|5.28.07 @ 12:32PM|#
Here's hoping the opposition decides to turn this into a theme
for the next election.
Instead of launching another counter-productive coup.
|5.28.07 @ 12:53PM|#
The fact that someone so unlibertarian as Hugo Chavez could be elected President of Venezuela, then reelected by a wide margin, begs the question -- do we want to open our southern borders to statist immigrants who support such tyrants? If not, how would we prevent such a Trojan Horse from being dragged into our country while still letting in those who do belive in freedom?
highnumber|5.28.07 @ 1:09PM|#
Wow, that's a blindside threadjack, jh!
Nonsensical, too.
You drinking?
Cesar|5.28.07 @ 1:21PM|#
jh-
"The fact that someone so unlibertarian as Hugo Chavez could be
elected President of Venezuela, then reelected by a wide margin,
begs the question -- do we want to open our southern borders to
statist immigrants who support such tyrants? If not, how would we
prevent such a Trojan Horse from being dragged into our country
while still letting in those who do belive in freedom?"
Latin Americans, like most people in the world, have very diverse
political views. Mexico has just elected two conservative
presidents in a row.
|5.28.07 @ 1:26PM|#
do we want to open our southern borders to statist
immigrants who support such tyrants?
Better yet: If they supported such tyrants, why would they leave
their country and sneak into ours in the first place?
Grotius|5.28.07 @ 1:33PM|#
Yet more non-sense from the Chavez regime.
joe,
(A) Not everyone involved in the opposition was involved in the
coup (indeed, I suspect the vast majority were not given the
general nature of coups). (B) The Chavez regime is responsible for
this action and others, not the opposition.
Grotius|5.28.07 @ 1:36PM|#
You know, if only some Venezuelans hadn't tried a coup the deteriorating state of Venezuela's democracy wouldn't have occurred. ;)
Grotius|5.28.07 @ 1:48PM|#
Some of the information by A.I. on the current state of affairs in Venezuela.
SxCx|5.28.07 @ 2:47PM|#
I, for one, don't fear a plague of statist zombies eating our
liberated brains and filling the cavity with proletarian
blood.
But that's just me.
Moooooooore|5.28.07 @ 3:07PM|#
Did Cindy Sheehan leave the Dems to join Chavez's party? Dude's a hero, obv.
|5.28.07 @ 3:12PM|#
Jesse Walker | May 28, 2007, 1:34pm | #
Will no one stop this onslaught of Venezuelan
immigrants?
Mexico probably will...down there on it's southern border.
thoreau|5.28.07 @ 3:18PM|#
I doubt that people who approve of Chavez will be eager to immigrate here.
Hugo Chavez|5.28.07 @ 4:00PM|#
"You know, if only some Venezuelans hadn't tried a coup the
deteriorating state of Venezuela's democracy wouldn't have
occurred. ;)"
Si, Yankee Imperialist liberaltarians. I was well on the way to
introducing free market and individual liberty reforms until the
coup.
Much like your el jefe Bush who was set to be the most libertarian
Presidente ever till Al Gore launched his re-coup in 2000.
|5.28.07 @ 4:52PM|#
"highnumber | May 28, 2007, 1:09pm | #
Wow, that's a blindside threadjack, jh!
Nonsensical, too.
You drinking?"
No, that one had a +0 G&T rating (G&T referring to the
number of gin and tonics downed prior to any given rant).
That really was a serious question, well answered by several
respondants, such as Hugh Akston: "If they supported such tyrants,
why would they leave their country and sneak into ours in the first
place?"
Nothing wrong with worrying about unintended consequences, yeah?
We'd all be way better off if el jefe Bush (aka Uncurious George)
hadn't been so dead certain that his glorious little war would end
with rose petals and cheering crowds.
TLB|5.28.07 @ 4:56PM|#
Here's a good comment I found from "Kyle" at
qando.net/details.aspx?entry=6081
Sorry, not buying it, I came from the state with the foremost
in poor and uneducated "ethnic" groups, Louisiana. Once the
Democrats get their hands on them they never let go. I cannot see
any libertarian ideas which will have a ghost of a chance once a
much larger group of poor and uneducated people start to vote. The
fact that Mexicans are from a socialist background but conservative
to the point of reactionary on social issues ought to scare the
crap out of any libertarian.
Libs: your "leaders" are leading you astray.
|5.28.07 @ 5:05PM|#
One sign that Chavez is still only authoritarian and not yet totalitarian - his cops are firing rubber bullets instead of real ones at citizens who disagree with him.
S.A. Miller|5.28.07 @ 5:09PM|#
Is it just me or did the music on that clip seem a big too... I
don't know... jovial? for a TV station being shut down by a
tyrannical government?
It seemed like some bizzaro game show....
|5.28.07 @ 5:10PM|#
"You know, if only some Venezuelans hadn't tried a coup the
deteriorating state of Venezuela's democracy wouldn't have
occurred. ;)"
Chavez himself is enough of a threat to democracy, without giving
him leeway.
When we should have using his election(s) to build as stout
foundation of democratic legitimacy, we were undermining it by
backing that coup.
The strength of institutional democracy in Venezuela doesn't matter
less because Chavez is a goon; it matters more.
|5.28.07 @ 5:13PM|#
"Here's hoping the opposition decides to turn this into a
theme for the next election.
Instead of launching another counter-productive coup."
I guess joe feels that if "evil Jews" hadn't torched the Reichstag
in 1933, then Hitler would not have been forced to commit the
holocaust. Nothing like blaming the victims!!!
It is funny though, seeing Chavez supporters (like joe), desperatly
trying to defend the guy, but getting more and more uncomfortable
doing so.
It is sure fun saying "I told you so" now, but you know 20 years
from now all the Chavez supporters will pretend they never liked
the guy, like Communists now do with the Soviet Union.
|5.28.07 @ 5:16PM|#
All that's going through my head is the CCCP1 episode of
SCTV...
"What fits into Russia?"
|5.28.07 @ 5:16PM|#
Sorry you can't tell the difference between a system of
government and an individual, Rex.
It's sad how Republicans have turned into monarchists over the Bush
presidency.
If only the True King was in power, all would be well! By any means
necessary.
Once up on a time, Rex, seizing power outside the law was something
libertarians opposed.
|5.28.07 @ 5:17PM|#
BTW, Rex, the cover story about the Reichstag fire was "Dutch
Communmist," not "evil Jews."
Read a book.
|5.28.07 @ 5:37PM|#
Once up on a time, Rex, seizing power outside the law was
something libertarians opposed.
So if G. W. Bush abolished Congress and abolished the Supreme Court
in violation of the constitution, and gave himself supreme power
indefinitly, you would consider that a lawful and democratic
action, because Bush was elected, correct?
So why do you consider it democratic when Chavez does it? Chavez
siezed power illegally. Just because someone is elected for a term
of office, doesn't mean it is legal for them to declare themselves
Dictator For Life.
But don't get me wrong, I *LOVE* Hugo Chavez, I don't oppose him by
any means. By using Socialism as the rallying cry for creating a
brutal police state, he does does so much more for discrediting
socialism that I could ever do posting messages on message boards.
Hugo Chavez is a libertarian's prayers answered (well, a
libertarian not living in Venezuala).
BTW, Rex, the cover story about the Reichstag fire was "Dutch
Communmist," not "evil Jews." Read a book.
Get a clue... Neither Dutch Communists nor "Evil Jews" are any more
responsible for burning the Reichstag than opposition parties were
for the "coup" against Chavez. You know, the coup you are using for
excusing the Venezuala police state, the same way the Nazis used
the Reichstag to excuse their police state!
|5.28.07 @ 5:40PM|#
"Joe -- Once up on a time, Rex, seizing power outside the law
was something libertarians opposed."
Ummm, the Rothbardian wing of the anarcho-capitalists hasn't
exactly been coy about their willingness to use private defense
agencies to overthrow what they perceive as an unlawful rule of
law.
On a related strain running through this thread, are we doomed to
have every possible permutation of collectivism (communism,
socialism, social democracy, New Dealism, national socialism,
welfare/warfare state, and now Chavezism) come crashing down amidst
utter misery before, out of desperation, we finally try
freedom?
(Still a +0 G&T rating on this rant, highnumber)
Grotius|5.28.07 @ 6:03PM|#
joe,
Yes, duh. So, why did you bring up the actions of a small group of
people who do not represent the majority of "the opposition" and
who are not responsible for the actions of Chavez's regime?
If the Bush administration were undertaking the sorts of measures
that the Chavez regime is, would you focus on what a small minority
of the opposition was involved in (whether their act was foolish or
not)?
When we should have using his election(s) to build as stout
foundation of democratic legitimacy, we were undermining it by
backing that coup.
The attempted coup didn't make a dime's worth of difference to the
outcome as we see it today.
BakedPenguin,
There have likely been extra-judicial killings in Venezuela during
the current regime. Whether they were sponsored by this regime or
merely the work of "rouge cops" I can't say.
Grotius|5.28.07 @ 6:15PM|#
FWIW, here is wikipedia's discussion of the allegations of fraud during the elections which Chavez has stood in.
Grotius|5.28.07 @ 6:20PM|#
BakedPenguin,
From AI's 2005 report on Venezuela:
At
least 14 people died during nationwide anti-government
demonstrations in February and March. As many as 200 were wounded
and several of those detained were ill-treated or tortured by
members of the security forces.
|5.28.07 @ 6:52PM|#
Grotius - My comment was somewhat tongue in cheek. I have no
doubt the man is a thug, and I also don't doubt that had there been
no news cameras covering the protests, the fate of the
(anti-Chavez) protesters might have been much worse.
I also suspect that the relatively slow pace of collectivization in
Venezuela is only due to his desire for foreign support. If he can
"justify" every power grab by pointing to "provocations", then he
can lay a claim that all his actions were necessary to maintain
sovereignty for the revolution or whatever.
|5.28.07 @ 6:57PM|#
"So if G. W. Bush abolished Congress and abolished the Supreme
Court in violation of the constitution, and gave himself supreme
power indefinitly, you would consider that a lawful and democratic
action, because Bush was elected, correct?"
No, I'd consider it illegal.
"So why do you consider it democratic when Chavez does it?" I don't
consider that democratic. I consider the system of elections and
peaceful succession of governments in Venezuela to be democratic.
Hence, my comment about the opposition and the next election.
"Just because someone is elected for a term of office, doesn't mean
it is legal for them to declare themselves Dictator For Life."
Chavez hasn't done that, and I very much don't want him to. Hence,
my comments about the opposition, the next election, and the
strength of the country's democratic institutions.
"But don't get me wrong, I *LOVE* Hugo Chavez, I don't oppose him
by any means. By using Socialism as the rallying cry for creating a
brutal police state, he does does so much more for discrediting
socialism that I could ever do posting messages on message boards.
Hugo Chavez is a libertarian's prayers answered (well, a
libertarian not living in Venezuala)."
That's extremely cynical, that you'd support him being in power
over an entire country just to help you score points in political
debates.
BTW, you don't know what "cover story" means, do you?
"You know, the coup you are using for excusing the Venezuala police
state, the same way the Nazis used the Reichstag to excuse their
police state!" Gee, and to think that people with your insightful
appreciation for democracy couldn't get it to take root in Iraq.
Putz.
|5.28.07 @ 7:11PM|#
Grotius,
"So, why did you bring up the actions of a small group of people
who do not represent the majority of "the opposition" and who are
not responsible for the actions of Chavez's regime?"
Because that group of people are extremely important, as they
represent the best opportunity to oust Chavez, who has always
displayed authoritarian tendencies, while continuing the fragile
democracy that exists in Venezuela. Unfortunately, they've
displayed little ability to accomplish either to date. The coup,
for example, or boycotting the last elections - they both
demonstrate a contempt for, if not outright oppsition to,
democratic norms, as well as difficulty succeeding as a democratic
party.
Shuttering this station should be a boon to them, giving them
something to rally support while standing up against an imposition
on free speech rights. I hope they can make it work for them in the
political sphere, and don't want to see them backslide.
"The attempted coup didn't make a dime's worth of difference to the
outcome as we see it today."
No, but it's going to make a difference in how today's events play
out in the Venezuelan polity - as will the opposition's handling of
this.
You're so keyed up to hold forth on Chavez, domestic partisan
snipes, or whatever - isn't the important issue here democracy in
Venezuela?
|5.28.07 @ 7:22PM|#
jh wrote:
how would we prevent such a Trojan Horse from being dragged
into our country while still letting in those who do belive in
freedom?
They couldn't survive the competition from our homegrown
collectivists.
|5.28.07 @ 7:41PM|#
"Neither Dutch Communists nor "Evil Jews" are any more
responsible for burning the Reichstag than opposition parties were
for the "coup" against Chavez."
Uh, let's see here:
Venezuelan Opposition's responsibility for anti-Chavez coup >
Dutch Communits' or evil Jews' responsibility for the Reichstag
fire
Yup, that's correct. You didn't even need the implied equal sign -
the responsibility of those two groups for the Reichstag fire is,
indeed, less that that of the Venezuelan opposition.
You actually got something right.
|5.28.07 @ 7:44PM|#
Ever read about the politics of immigrant groups in the United
States during the 19th and 20th centuries?
We figured it out.
|5.28.07 @ 8:07PM|#
Jesse Walker:
Will no one stop this onslaught of Venezuelan
immigrants?
Cracked me up!
Grotius|5.28.07 @ 8:15PM|#
joe,
...while continuing the fragile democracy that exists in
Venezuela.
Do you actually think that democracy still exists there?
Unfortunately, they've displayed little ability to accomplish
either to date.
(A) That's what happens when force and fraud rule the day. (B) In
1981 that is what many commentators said about Solidarity because
their efforts provoked a crackdown.
...they both demonstrate a contempt for, if not outright
oppsition to, democratic norms...
whatever the merits of the former, the latter illustrates a
frustration with a corrupt electoral system.
No, but it's going to make a difference in how today's events
play out in the Venezuelan polity - as will the opposition's
handling of this.
I doubt this. The Venezuelan government has the guns and butter
after all.
You're so keyed up to hold forth on Chavez, domestic partisan
snipes, or whatever - isn't the important issue here democracy in
Venezuela?
Actually, I am keyed up to hold forth on the current regime in
power in Venezuela. I've been fairly particular about that.
More important (to me) are the human and civil rights situation in
Venezuela (which has always been precarious to some degree).
Indeed, from my perspective when it comes to these issues it
doesn't matter which ideology a government belongs to.
|5.28.07 @ 8:19PM|#
Here's how Venezuela's RCTV station closed its news
broadcast, the last before Hugo Chavez's government replaced the
station with a new glory-of-Socialism network.
Yet more proof that we've been right for years: Socialism
really sucks!
Hopefully someday Hugo Chavez will be thrown into a Venezuelan
prison for this and other crimes against his countrymen.
Grotius|5.28.07 @ 8:35PM|#
joe,
Anyway, as for American involvement in the coup attempt, that is a
contested issue.
BakedPenguin,
It is a completely unfortunate situation.
David,
RCTV can still (apparently) broadcast on cable and satellite.
SxCx|5.28.07 @ 8:37PM|#
More important (to me) are the human and civil rights
situation in Venezuela (which has always been precarious to some
degree). Indeed, from my perspective when it comes to these issues
it doesn't matter which ideology a government belongs
to.
Joe has a crucial point here. Yeah, I'll admit I'm a bit indulgent
regarding the failures of socialist experimentation, but let's not
go ignobly rooting for human trauma because he's not wearing our
uniform.
If Chavez fails and causes irreparable harm, which I suspect he
will given our knowledge of the past, I will be saddened and
furious, and frankly not thinking too much about the superiority of
libertarianism in the wake of such misery.
|5.28.07 @ 8:50PM|#
joe sez: Ever read about the politics of immigrant groups in
the United States during the 19th and 20th centuries?
We figured it out.
Yeah, but not in time to keep Pat Buchanan's forebears out of the
country.
|5.28.07 @ 8:52PM|#
Hopefully someday Hugo Chavez will be thrown into a
Venezuelan prison
Maybe he can have his old cell back from when he attempted a coup
d'etat in 92?
Single Issue Voter|5.28.07 @ 8:58PM|#
"Will no one stop this onslaught of Venezuelan
immigrants?"
Investor's Business Daily column
http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?secid=1501&status=article&id=254621701430577
They say Venezuelan immigration to the US is up 5000% since
2000.
The Hordes are HERE!
|5.28.07 @ 9:05PM|#
@Single Issue Voter
Who's coming? Not farmworkers or day laborers. Sadly for
Venezuela, we're getting the cream of the crop. The doctors working
in department stores and teachers working in fast food places are
among the many coming here who've had some opportunity to develop
their skills as professionals and entrepreneurs.
Weston and Doral are full of business startups, beginning with
Venezuelans who own bakeries and restaurants and other businesses.
Most assimilate here swiftly. Among them also are software
developers, advertising account executives, doctors, scientists,
classical musicians and lawyers.
Our gain is Venezuela's loss.
Indeed. Now that's the kind of immigration we need!
Single Issue Voter|5.28.07 @ 9:36PM|#
Pig,
Agreed 100%
I tend not to comment much on immigration as my ideological
position is pure libertarian but as policy the practice is skewed
to defacto open subsidized immigration of uneducated low skilled
poor while restricting the entry of the skilled, educated and
relatively wealthy.
|5.28.07 @ 9:48PM|#
juris makes a good point. In hindsight, Rafael Caldera effed up
good when he pardoned Chavez back in `94. Convicted felons being
barred for office for life may be a standard some find to strict,
but I don't think it is too much for a republic to ban those who
perpetrate coups from holding high office.
Kevin
|5.28.07 @ 10:39PM|#
For a radically different look at this issue
http://www.counterpunch.org/mcelwee05252007.html
"But is support for the violent overthrow of an elected government
really protected political speech? Vivanco acknowledges that RCTV
"obviously probably sympathized with the coup." But, he says, "it
is a matter of free speech."
Vivanco understates RCTV's connection to the coup. RCTV encouraged
viewers to attend a rally that was part of the coup strategy,
invited coup leaders to address the country on their channel, and
reported the false information that the president had resigned.
After Pedro Carmona declared himself president and dissolved the
National Assembly, Supreme Court, and other democratic
institutions, the head of RCTV Marcel Granier met with him in the
Presidential Palace. The following day, when mass protests and
loyal army units brought back President Chávez, RCTV and other
stations blacked out the news, showing movies and cartoons
instead.
Such actions clearly go beyond protected free speech, at least in
the United States. Imagine the consequences if NBC took such
actions during a coup against Bush."
It is worth reading the whole thing... not that anyone will be
convinced by Counterpunch, but they add some facts into the mix
that are worth knowing.
|5.28.07 @ 11:02PM|#
Boing Boing has a nice follow up...
http://www.boingboing.net/2007/05/28/venezuelan_media_cra.html
|5.28.07 @ 11:20PM|#
Neu Mejican --
So you're saying that Hillary wins the White House and the
Democrats strenghten their hold on Congress, and if Fox News
offends this new elite by airing the views of disgruntled
conservatives, it's OK for the FCC to shut them down? Or if Pat
Robertson prays for some more political assassinations (did I get
the right theocrat here?), it's OK for politicians to pull the plug
on the 700 Club? Or if some radical firebrands post on threads at
reason.com the notion that the U.S. Government's monopoly on the
use of force should be replaced with competing private defense
agencies, and intimate that the transition might not be completely
peaceful, that the FBI would be justified in shutting down this
website?
Not that I'm suggesting anything like that. Nonono. Just a
completely theoretical hypothetical.
|5.28.07 @ 11:29PM|#
jh,
I am not suggesting (or advocating) anything.
Just adding some more facts to the discussion.
|5.28.07 @ 11:44PM|#
And Reuters has this additional story.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070528/wl_nm/venezuela_television_dc;_ylt=A0WTUZJVoVtGWe8AfCdm.3QA
CARACAS (Reuters) - Hours after President Hugo Chavez shut down
Venezuela's main opposition broadcaster, his government demanded an
investigation of news network Globovision on Monday for allegedly
inciting an assassination attempt on the leftist leader.
|5.28.07 @ 11:52PM|#
Also on the BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6699383.stm
Globovision was the only TV station to air footage of a large
demonstration against the government's growing control over the
media.
The Wine Commonsewer|5.29.07 @ 12:06AM|#
-- do we want to open our southern borders to statist
immigrants who support such tyrants?
Fargin Canadians ain't doin' too shit hot neither. Secure the
Northern Frontier. Do Not Let Dudley Dew Right near any of the
white women.
And, now that you mention it, My Fellow Americans aren't
particularly good at picking freedom loving pols.
Rosemount 2002 Merlot (Orange Vineyard). Good. Buy some. Don't know
the price. It's Aussie.
No, got dam it, I am not under the alfluence of incohol.
The Wine Commonsewer|5.29.07 @ 12:10AM|#
And now, back to the latest Harry Bosch novel.....because, in the words of La Vida Vica, the world is wide but it is not deep.
|5.29.07 @ 12:37AM|#
The "well, of course they deserved shutting down, they supported a coup against the thug!" line of a lot of the quoted emails on BoingBoing amuses me. But then, the political understanding of the BoingBoing group pretty much begins and ends at "OMG, Bush and Disney are so evil!", so it's no surprise they'd refuse to take anything like a stance on the issue.
Grotius|5.29.07 @ 12:50AM|#
But is support for the violent overthrow of an elected
government really protected political speech?
That would depend on the nature of the election, correct and what
that elected government is doing.
Grotius|5.29.07 @ 1:01AM|#
Neu Mejican,
As far I know the Venezuelan government has significant control
over what can be broadcast in Venezuela (even on private radio and
TV stations).
|5.29.07 @ 1:06AM|#
Grotius,
"That would depend on the nature of the election, correct and what
that elected government is doing."
It also depends upon what you mean by protected. "Protected"
usually refers to protected by the government or the
constitution...so I am not sure things are a straight forward as
you imply...
In the US you would probably start here...
US C.
Art. III section 3
Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in
levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving
them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason
unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or
on confession in open court.
The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason,
but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or
forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.
"aid and comfort" seems to be the charge that someone might claim
RCTV could be accused of...
But, of course, the freedom of the press is a pretty important
freedom that deserves fairly strong protection from such a charge.
It should take extraordinary actions to over-ride...
The question is if RCTV crossed the line where protection from the
government against such an accusation can no longer be
expected.
Now in the case of Chavez, you can bet he is thinking a much
different calculus ("Can I get away with this action against my
opposition...").
|5.29.07 @ 1:08AM|#
Grotius,
As far as I know, Chavez has much less control over the media than
he would like. A large majority is privately held and in the hands
of the opposition (since the business community is Chavez's natural
enemy).
This is clearly an attempt on his part to try and get the kind of
controls that Putin has managed in recent years.
I hope is not successful. +
Grotius|5.29.07 @ 1:12AM|#
...so I am not sure things are a straight forward as you
imply...
I didn't imply that they were straightforward.
In the US you would probably start here...
No, in the U.S. one would start with the 1st Amendment's speech
clause.
Anyway, in the case of a tyrant it really wouldn't depend whether
the speech was "protected" or not.
The question is if RCTV crossed the line where protection from
the government against such an accusation can no longer be
expected.
If that was the case, then were members of the station prosecuted
for treason? It seems rather odd otherwise to use as a punishment
the non-renewal of a license due to an event five years ago.
Grotius|5.29.07 @ 1:13AM|#
Neu Mejican,
A large majority is privately held and in the hands of the
opposition (since the business community is Chavez's natural
enemy).
As far as I know when it comes to broadcast media the Venezuelan
government has theoretically at least direct control over its
content.
|5.29.07 @ 1:20AM|#
Grotius,
"..so I am not sure things are a straight forward as you
imply...
I didn't imply that they were straightforward. "
Okay. I infered from your comments that you thought it was straight
forward.
"If that was the case, then were members of the station prosecuted
for treason? It seems rather odd otherwise to use as a punishment
the non-renewal of a license due to an event five years ago."
Read some of the links above. The law in question regarding the
license give the authority solely to the executive...Chavez is
making a political decision here. He will be more able to make the
political case this way than by bringing charges.
"n the US you would probably start here...
No, in the U.S. one would start with the 1st Amendment's speech
clause."
You say tomato.
The point is that the legal decision involves weighing what the
government would see as Treason against the freedom of the press.
At some tipping point treason will win out with almost any
government.
With an authoritarian like Chavez, given statutory authority...just
highlights the importance of checks and balances and due process.
(not current in V's laws in this case...laws that predate Chavez by
20 years).
|5.29.07 @ 1:36AM|#
Grotius,
"As far as I know when it comes to broadcast media the Venezuelan
government has theoretically at least direct control over its
content."
This power is, if I understand correctly, via a 1987 law that gives
licensing power to the executive without administrative or judicial
oversight.
Obviously a bad idea.
It is nothing like the level of control you have in Cuba/China,
approaching the level of current media oppression in Russia, it
seems.
Guy Montag|5.29.07 @ 1:45AM|#
Yes, the Fairness Doctrine re-emerges to the south, right before that new Congress here demands it from the FCC.
|5.29.07 @ 1:52AM|#
"Neu Mejican says: That would depend on the nature of the
election, correct and what that elected government is doing."
It also depends upon what you mean by protected. "Protected"
usually refers to protected by the government or the
constitution...so I am not sure things are a straight forward as
you imply...
In the US you would probably start here...
US C.
Art. III section 3
Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in
levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving
them aid and comfort.
"aid and comfort" seems to be the charge that someone might claim
RCTV could be accused of...
But, of course, the freedom of the press is a pretty important
freedom that deserves fairly strong protection from such a charge.
It should take extraordinary actions to over-ride..."
"Pretty important freedom"? "Fairly strong protection"? Bah. How
about under no circumstances is it treason or aiding or comforting
the enemy to advocate anything in print, even advocating the
violent overthrow of the government? If you go down the slippery
slope of letting words rather than physical acts of violence be
interpreted as treason, you're abrogating the right the Founders
claimed (I believe in the Declaration of Independence) to overthrow
a tyranny that has gone too far, or arguably even abrogating the
right to point out that they've gone too far.
I'm not about to concede to the government the right to censor
anything whatsoever. They've taken too much of our freedom as it
is.
|5.29.07 @ 1:59AM|#
What is funny is the boingboing commenters accenting that they
weren't shut down, they were just "non-renewed." Without seeing
that if one concedes that the airwaves are owned by the government
exclusively, then one broadcasts at the whim of the gov't in power,
and that by extension our freedoms are little safer. Live by the
sword, etc...
And by funny, I mean, pedantic, yet stupid.
shecky|5.29.07 @ 3:45AM|#
While no doubt this is a disappointing development, I get the feeling the newly out of work broadcasters are laying on the drama a bit thick. After all, what kind of half assed dictator would tolerate this bunch of Cindy Sheehans prancing around with their mouths shut? Any thug worth his salt would have had that lot disappeared in the middle of the night long ago.
|5.29.07 @ 4:56AM|#
JH,
I don't know if you got the memo, but Mexico and Venezuela are two
entirely different countries. It's also worth pointing out that the
people coming to the USA do so because they don't want to stay in
the socialist paradises they're leaving behind.
-jcr
Dave W.|5.29.07 @ 7:49AM|#
Read a book.
Not many regulars on here really bug me. Some, like RCD, Grand
Chalupa and T. are amusing in their respective types of true
believerism. Others, like joe and Rick Barton provide nutritious
food for thought.
Rex Rhino really gets under my skin for whatever reason,
though.
|5.29.07 @ 9:39AM|#
Grotius,
"Do you actually think that democracy still exists there?"
I think it's hanging on by a thread.
"(A) That's what happens when force and fraud rule the day."
Wishful thinking. Chavez won the last two elections because he was
by far the more popular candidate. Which is not to say that there
wasn't force and fraud going on, but they are not the reason why
Chavez won.
"(B) In 1981 that is what many commentators said about Solidarity
because their efforts provoked a crackdown." I'm not making that
argument, that the opposition "provoked" bad acts by Chavez. I'm
saying that the oppostion engaged in practices themselves that were
unhelpful to democracy.
"whatever the merits of the former, the latter illustrates a
frustration with a corrupt electoral system." I can sympathize with
the motive, but the decision to boycott the election was a blow to
democracy, which is the last thing Venzuela needed.
"I doubt this. The Venezuelan government has the guns and butter
after all."
I guess we'll see. Taking away people's favorite teevee shows is
the sort of thing that can have a massive impact on public
opinion.
"Actually, I am keyed up to hold forth on the current regime in
power in Venezuela."
I guess I'm taking a longer-term view. If putting up with Chavez
for a couple of terms is the price of maintaining democracy, as
opposed to revolving-door coup regimes, then so be it.
I think we're suffering from the absense of a concept - the
international equivalent of "opposition." In domestic politics, we
(or most of us, anyway) can easily recognize the difference between
an opposition party and actual enemies. If we're going to be
serious about supporting democracy around the world, we have to
acknowledge that there are going to be elected governments that are
unfriendly to us, or at least to the administration we have in
place. We need to conceptualize them differently from our actual
enemies. We need to concentrate on the democratic system, not the
man in office.
From Wikipedia|5.29.07 @ 9:58AM|#
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez criticised the imposition of
the death penalty on Saddam and said that U.S. President George W.
Bush, rather than Saddam, deserved to be sentenced to death. "If
sentencing is to be done," said Chavez in November 2006, "the first
one to be given the most severe sentence this planet has to offer
should be the president of the United States, if we're talking
about genocidal presidents."
Wikipedia also notes that Venezuela is the nation that has outlawed
the death penalty for the longest time.
|5.29.07 @ 10:42AM|#
So what if government forces fired tear gas and rubber bullets at massive waves of protesters? It's not like Venezuela claims to be a democracy...at least not without winking.
|5.29.07 @ 10:49AM|#
jh says...
"How about under no circumstances is it treason or aiding or
comforting the enemy to advocate anything in print, even advocating
the violent overthrow of the government?"
I agree (that would be a pretty important position to maintain
worthy of fairly strong protection).
Now, look into it a bit deeper.
Is this what RCTV is accused of?
I don't know if you can tell but I disagree with Chavez's actions,
but I think the issue is a bit more complicated than a simple
"dictator closes down media" case. Chavez was savy enough to wait
until this stations renewal was due, and then acted. And he
provided cover for his action by pointing out that the station
owner's participated in the previous coup. Chavez did everything he
could in this case to stay within the law. As shecky points out...
it is not like these people were all disappeared in the
night.
His follow up threats on Globalvision are getting closer to
straight up abuse of legal authority (trumped up charges)... I bet
they stay on the air.
Chavez has mis-calculated here. He will lose lots of international
support and a good deal of his own people over this.
|5.29.07 @ 10:52AM|#
Lamar,
Kinda like we do here in the good ole' US...
Freedom of assembly is also a pretty important right deserving of
fairly strong protection.
|5.29.07 @ 10:54AM|#
Gee, and to think that people with your insightful
appreciation for democracy couldn't get it to take root in Iraq.
Putz.
You were the one who voted for the invasion of Iraq. I voted for a
party that clearly opposed the Iraq war from day 1.
Rex Rhino really gets under my skin for whatever reason,
though.
It isn't "for some reason"... If I remember correctly, I called you
a vicious criminal, worse than someone who mugs people on the
street, for your support and participation in predatory patent
lawsuits. I expressed by total disgust towards you. Of course I get
under your skin!
Dave W.|5.29.07 @ 11:09AM|#
for your support and participation in predatory patent
lawsuits
Oh, yeah, now I remember. You are an idiot.
For the record, the large majority of my patent litigation work was
defense side.
Tended to be plaintiff's side on trademark suits, though.
Don't forget to check out my patent blog, but if you comment that I
am a vicious criminal there, I will do the old Radley Balko routine
on ya. ;)
Dave W.|5.29.07 @ 11:15AM|#
for your support and participation in predatory patent
lawsuits
Today's entry is about how the patent appeals court found a drug
patent invalid for being an obvious variation.
So good news for the patents-r-terrible crowd.
The case was briefed by 30 lawyers. Cause it is a drug patent.
|5.29.07 @ 11:49AM|#
jh,
A follow up.
"If you go down the slippery slope of letting words rather than
physical acts of violence be interpreted as treason, you're
abrogating the right the Founders claimed (I believe in the
Declaration of Independence) to overthrow a tyranny that has gone
too far, or arguably even abrogating the right to point out that
they've gone too far."
So the "aid and comfort" part of Treason that the founding fathers
included in the constitution holds no water with you?
Absolutists are the primary cause of political violence. You seem
to be taking an absolutist position. Initiation of force, use of
extra-legal means to remove a leader requires, in my mind, that
that leader goes beyond what Chavez has done to date.
Joe has pointed out that the democratic institution in Venezuela is
more important than Chavez. The coup leaders (which may have
included some at RCTV) showed no respect for that institution.
Chavez is a power hungry twit elected to power in a country with
term limits. Attempts at extra-legal extension of his tenure would
show that he also has no respect for the democratic institutions of
his country. So far, he has stayed within the bounds of the rule of
law. He should be watched closely. But political disagreements
should not be solved with violence unless there is no other
option.
|5.29.07 @ 12:36PM|#
So the "aid and comfort" part of Treason that the founding fathers included in the constitution holds no water with you?
I remember a lot of keyboard commandos making just that same
argument so they could accuse prominent folks arguing against the
Iraq war of "treason".
Joe has pointed out that the democratic institution in Venezuela is more important than Chavez.
Whether it'll actually survive Chavez seems rather
doubtful.
|5.29.07 @ 1:19PM|#
So far, he has stayed within the bounds of the rule of
law
No. Chavez has blatently violated the constitution of Venezuala.
Imagine if G. W. Bush, as an "emergency measure", abolished
Congress, and made himself sole lawmaker of the United States. That
is essentially what Chavez did.
|5.29.07 @ 1:28PM|#
Rex R.
Compare the details of Chavez's actions with, say, Saddam's when he
took power...
From Wikipedia
Responding to the stalling of his legislation in the National
Assembly, Chávez scheduled two national elections for July 1999,
including a referendum for and elections to fill a new
constitutional assembly. The Constitutional Assembly was created
when the referendum passed with a 72% "yes" vote, while the
pro-Chávez Polo Patriotico ("Patriotic Pole") won 95% (120 out of
the total 131) of its seats. In August 1999, the Constitutional
Assembly's "Judicial Emergency Committee" declared a "legislative
emergency" whereby a seven-member committee conducted the National
Assembly's functions; meanwhile, the National Assembly was
prohibited from holding meetings.[29] The Constitutional Assembly
drafted the 1999 Venezuelan Constitution, which included an
increase in the presidential term from five to six years, a new
presidential two-term limit, a new provision for presidential
recall elections, renaming of the country to República Bolivariana
de Venezuela, expanded presidential powers, conversion of the
bicameral National Assembly into a unicameral legislature,
merit-based appointments of judges, and creation of the Public
Defender, an office authorized to regulate the activities of the
presidency and the National Assembly.[30]
In December 1999, the new constitution was approved. On December
15, after weeks of heavy rain, statewide mudslides claimed the
lives of an estimated 30,000 people. Critics claim Chávez was
distracted by the referendum and that the government ignored a
civil defense report, calling for emergency measures, issued the
day the floods struck.[31] The government rejected these
claims.[31] Chávez personally led the relief effort
afterwards.[32]
Chavez is a power hungry twit.
So far he has attempted to use legal means to increase his power.
With some successes.
Eric.5b,
"I remember a lot of keyboard commandos making just that same
argument so they could accuse prominent folks arguing against the
Iraq war of "treason"."
That is not the argument I am making. Aid and comfort is not the
same as arguing against. It involves more than just words. It
requires actions.
"Joe has pointed out that the democratic institution in Venezuela
is more important than Chavez.
Whether it'll actually survive Chavez seems rather doubtful."
We'll have to wait and see.
The active protests on the streets over this should give him some
pause about what he can get away with.
|5.29.07 @ 1:40PM|#
I will repeat for clarity.
I don't support what Chavez is doing.
Particularly the "rule by decree" shit from January until June of
next year. But getting legislative approval to rule by decree does
not mean people will put up with any change attempted. Chavez will
be seeing more and more blowback against his actions as he
restricts freedoms. I am not sure his support is strong enough to
weather that blowback.
|5.29.07 @ 1:57PM|#
Here's hoping the opposition decides to turn this into a
theme for the next election.
joe's so cute, thinking that Hugo would ever permit an election
that he could lose.
Once up on a time, Rex, seizing power outside the law was
something libertarians opposed.
I challenge you to find a single libertarian who thinks the
American Revolution was wrong because it was extra-legal.
Jeffrey Henderson|5.29.07 @ 2:50PM|#
Are you all retarded?
This TV station participated in an attempted coup to displace
Chavez, which failed because of a huge outpouring of support from
the people of the country.
Watch this documentary about what happened:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144&q=Irish+film+The+Revolution+Will+Not+Be+Televised&hl=en
The elite of Venezuela want to control the oil wealth of the
country, rather than having every citizen share in the wealth.
That's all it's about, is the elite using the media to control a
population.
Kind of like what happens here in the US.
|5.29.07 @ 3:48PM|#
"Neu Mejican says: So the "aid and comfort" part of Treason that
the founding fathers included in the constitution holds no water
with you?
Absolutists are the primary cause of political violence. You seem
to be taking an absolutist position. Initiation of force, use of
extra-legal means to remove a leader requires, in my mind, that
that leader goes beyond what Chavez has done to date."
No, I interpret "aid and comfort" to mean what the Founders meant:
taking traitors into your house, feeding them, patching up their
wounds, giving them ammo -- physical acts. I don't interpret "aid
and comfort" to mean exercising one's First Amendment right to
point out that the government has usurped its power, and possibly
to conclude that this usurpation has gone on to the point that one
should float the notion of overthrowing the government, as allowed
for in the Declaration of Independence, and see if a substantial
portion of the citizenry agree with you.
Were the Founders wrong, and guilty of absolutism, when they said
Congress may not pass laws abridging the right to bear arms (Second
Amendment), abridging the right to exercise one's religious
beliefs, (First Amendment)., or to pass all kinds of
unconstitutional laws not allowed by the Ninth Amendment? The
Constitution has some absolutist parts -- it lays out things that
government is absolutely not allowed to do -- and which politicians
have subsequently ignored, leading to websites like this protesting
such usurpations of power.
Is that moderate and relativist enough for you?
|5.29.07 @ 4:54PM|#
JH,
"No, I interpret "aid and comfort" to mean what the Founders meant:
taking traitors into your house, feeding them, patching up their
wounds, giving them ammo -- physical acts."
RCTV coordinated with the coup leaders, organized their broadcast
agenda and content to support the physical acts of the coup
leaders, and took actions to aid and support the coup. Whether the
actions are simply speech or something beyond speech is the core of
the debate.
The disagreement between sides on this seems to be trying to find a
distinction between what Searle would call "speech acts" and
political speech. At some point along a sliding continuum, saying
something can be seen as an act as real and substantial as a
physical act. It is this distinction that leads to the classic
"yelling fire in a crowded theatre" discussion of free speech.
Whether RCTV's speech acts cross that line in regards to the coup
is up for debate, but an absolutist position does not allow for any
meaningful discussion. If no speech manifests as a speech act, a
meaningful action in the world, then all speech is allowed
including the mythical "fire" yelled in the crowded theatre. And
slander, and libel, and fraud.
"The Constitution has some absolutist parts -- it lays out things
that government is absolutely not allowed to do -- and which
politicians have subsequently ignored, leading to websites like
this protesting such usurpations of power."
And yet it also has mechanisms for adjusting those absolutes in the
face of changing societal challenges and norms (without even
getting into the fact that there is an entire branch dedicated to
interpreting how those "absolutes" will apply when the rubber meets
the road). The constitution allows for amendments (like those you
cite), so it is not as absolutist at all. It seems, to me, to take
the stance..."This is our best attempt to organize a fair system,
but we recognize that there may be flaws in our view, so we have
provided ways to improve this document over time."
Do you feel like every change to the constitution has been a
negative?
The power of government flows from the people to the government in
any democratic system. Chavez recognizes that to some extent and
has worked hard to win the people's support. Abuse of that trust
will, eventually, come back and bite him in the ass. We can only
hope it is sooner rather than later. This latest news may be the
first nibble. We can only hope it either changes Chavez's ways, or
leads to his loss in the next election (recall or otherwise).
Violence (like the attempted coup the RCTV supported, at least, if
not participated in) is a political tool that should be used only
when non-violent means have been exhausted. I don't think Venezuela
is there yet.
|5.29.07 @ 5:14PM|#
Whether RCTV's speech acts cross that line in regards to the
coup is up for debate, but an absolutist position does not allow
for any meaningful discussion.
It is not up for debate in Venezuala, because Chavez has banned the
debate from public airwaves.
But really, to say that RCTV participated in the Venezuala "coup",
is like saying that Al-Jazeera participated in the 9/11 attacks and
suicide bombings in Isreal. Or saying that DailyKOS is trying to
assasinate G. W. Bush.
Grotius|5.29.07 @ 5:31PM|#
joe,
On the issue of elections in Venezuela I will note that on at least
one occassion the EU forewent monitoring because of the
restrictions placed on its monitoring activities.
I guess I'm taking a longer-term view.
I'm not. I am concerned with the daily human and civil rights
violations in Venezuela (and other nations).
BTW, those who support the current effort in Iraq also take a
similarly "long-view" approach. Whether that view is appropriate or
not should note mute criticism of the Iraqi government and its
inability to curb violence perpertrated by individuals in
government uniforms.
|5.29.07 @ 5:46PM|#
"It is not up for debate in Venezuala, because Chavez has banned
the debate from public airwaves."
And lord knows that is the only way people communicate in a
society. They can't talk face to face in the street, or in their
home, or through public protest, or by calling for another recall,
or...
"But really, to say that RCTV participated in the Venezuala "coup",
is like saying that Al-Jazeera participated in the 9/11 attacks and
suicide bombings in Isreal. Or saying that DailyKOS is trying to
assasinate G. W. Bush."
Those don't seem like an apt comparisons to me.
The main point at which I think RCTV might have crossed the line to
aid and comfort of the coup was when they knowingly broadcast the
false information that Chavez had resigned to provide political
cover for the coup...(prior coordination with the coup's leaders is
implied by some of their other actions as well). Nothing Al J or
DKos has done approaches that by a long shot.
The best way to determine if RCTV really were part of the coup
would be in a court or under an appeal to the non-renewal of the
license. Both of which are not part of the process in Venezuela...
too bad. Chavez, of course, could bring charges, but he knows
better. The law gives him a way to act without oversight, so he is
taking it.
|5.29.07 @ 6:02PM|#
And Rex R,
Chavez would LIKE to ban the debate, but I bet he ends up unable to
do so...he may be able to get enough control of the media with his
"rule by decree" powers, but he doesn't have it yet. Closing down
Globalvision without the license renewal mechanism as an excuse
would be an even more troubling step than the current one. We'll
have to wait and see.
From what I understand of Chavez's power base... he is not without
critics even within his own movement, so he still needs to maintain
popular support to maintain power.
The degree to which the army aligns with Chavez vs. aligning with
the people will determine the true depth of his ability to enforce
unpopular measures. I don't think that has been tested yet.
|5.29.07 @ 6:05PM|#
"I remember a lot of keyboard commandos making just that same argument so they could accuse prominent folks arguing against the Iraq war of "treason"."
That is not the argument I am making. Aid and comfort is not the same as arguing against. It involves more than just words. It requires actions.
As you admit, the acts of "aid and comfort" you cite boil down to
speech - supposedly biased or even false speech, but speech.
|5.29.07 @ 6:13PM|#
Eric.5B,
See discussion of speech acts vs. speech above.
It is a categorical error to completely remove speech from the
realm of actions.
Providing disinformation as political cover for someone engaged in
a violent overthrow of the government based on premeditated plans
may be implemented as a speech act, but it is hardly devoid of
power as an act of aid to those engaged in the violence.
|5.29.07 @ 6:16PM|#
And to reiterate...
Chavez is wrong to do this.
I don't agree with his actions.
It is just that RCTV has provided a real-world test case that
brings up some points worth discussing...particularly given the
current climate in our country regarding the media's role. Our
political divide may not be as sharp as Venezuela's, but it could
get there quite easily.
|5.30.07 @ 10:41AM|#
N&M, you don't make a convincing distinction in this case, which is exactly why that argument sounds so much like that of the rabid "Pelosi is a traitor!" Reds.
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