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One Country's Victim Is Another's Terrorist
Today the Canadian government will formally apologize to Maher Arar, the software engineer whom it mistakenly fingered as a terrorist, leading U.S. authorities to detain him during a layover in New York and deport him to the country of his birth, Syria, where he was tortured into signing a confession and imprisoned for a year. The Canadian government also plans to pay Arar $8.5 million ($10 million Canadian) in compensation.
The U.S. government, meanwhile, won't even remove Arar from its terrorist watch list, despite his exoneration by a Canadian commission of inquiry and a direct appeal by Canadian Minister of Public Safety Stockwell Day. In a January 16 letter to Day, The New York Times reports, U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and Secretary of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff
said their departments and American intelligence agencies "have re-examined the materials in the possession of the United States regarding Mr. Arar.
"Based on this re-examination," [they] added, "we remain of the view that the continued watch listing of Mr. Arar is appropriate."
After the letter was sent, Mr. Day met last week with Mr. Chertoff and Mr. Gonzales and reviewed the American dossier on Mr. Arar in its entirety, but still disagreed with the American decision, Canadian and American officials said.
To recap: The Canadians, the original source of the tip that made U.S. officials think Arar was a terrorist, have completely repudiated the allegation, but the Americans are sticking to it, based on secret information the Canadians find unpersuasive. I'd like to believe our government is being extra careful, preferring to err on the side of safety. But I suspect it is actually being extra careless, refusing to admit the possibility of error.
|1.26.07 @ 10:58AM|#
Well yeah, makes perfect sense, after all the whole point is to manufacture as many 'terrorists' as possible in order to cow as much of the public as possible. how else could they justify their destruction of the rule of law (non-secret laws any way)?
babytrue|1.26.07 @ 11:07AM|#
All depends on the nationality of the supposed "Terrorist". In Oct. 2001, two men were caught entering the Parliament building in Mexico with guns and C-4 explosives. It was headline news in Mexico, and was also on the Mexican Justice Dept. Web Site. CNN reported a breaking story, but dropped it like a hot potato. Turns out that one man was a MOSSAD (Israeli Intelligence) the other a Mexican Jew. Both had forged Pakistani Passports. Had they been Muslims, I am sure that CNN would have been much more interested. Must have some people on their staff who hate to see Israel look bad. They wanted to blow up the Mexican Congress and blame it on Muslims, specifically Pakistani ones, their nuclear neighbor.
|1.26.07 @ 11:07AM|#
I think it's probably because there is no "delete" feature in
their terrorist DB. Once suspected, you are never fully
exonerated.
The TSA no-fly list (which i'm on thanks to the other, TSA-suing
John Gilmore) says specifically that when you mail them your
request for removal, that your status MAY BE changed, but you will
nevertheless remain on the list, albeit with a lower security risk
rating. Oh, well thats a relief! As long as they're protecting me
from me! The world is safe from any risky John Gilmores. Can't wait
until 5 years from now when this stuff prevents me from getting
jobs.
|1.26.07 @ 11:07AM|#
"Based on this re-examination," [they] added, "we remain of
the view that the continued watch listing of Mr. Arar is
appropriate."
Well, if he didn't have a hostile view of the US .gov before being
spirited away, tortured, and imprisoned I guess he might now!
VM|1.26.07 @ 11:08AM|#
"But I suspect it is actually being extra careless, refusing to
admit the possibility of error."
no way!
But it'll be fun watching people defend this position.
cheers and Happy Friday.
Go Bears
Congrats Colts.
Best. Big. Game. Evar.
(boo hoo. poor Eastern Seaboard Programming Network)
|1.26.07 @ 11:10AM|#
"I'd like to believe our government is being extra careful,
preferring to err on the side of safety. But I suspect it is
actually being extra careless, refusing to admit the possibility of
error."
I'd like to believe a lot of things, but WTF? Why the kid gloves
here? It's quite simple...Have an investigation into why this this
guy was sent off to be locked up, held without access to legal
council, and tortured over the course of a year. If this was done
in error, which seems to be the case, issue a public apology and
bring charges of at least criminal negligence against all of those
involved in his abuse etc. etc. If nothing else, it might serve to
remove the permanent the smirk from Gonzalez's face.
jonnycakes|1.26.07 @ 11:17AM|#
An FBI Agent living in our neighborhood told me that, one, the
FBI lacks evidence implicating Bin Laden and El-Quaeda in the 9/11
attacks, two, Israeli agents were indeed caught videoing and
celebrating the fall of the Twin Towers, three, URBAN MOVING
SYSTEMS a moving company adjacent to Logan (Staffed mostly by
Israeli intel. people) may well have placed the white van and Koran
next to Logan,
four, Israeli agents were in the Apt. next door to the hijackers in
FL, five, the profile of the hijackers is that of partying, sex
seeking, boozing Arab "hired guns", not Jihad type Muslims, six it
is not at at clear who hired them, seven going after Israel is
career suicide in the FBI as the Israeli lobby is so powerful.
Americans just find it much easier to mistrust and dislike Muslims.
He said that there is a really good BBC documentary on terrorism
saying that El Qaeda as an international terrorist organization
hardly exists. He also said that the original communication in
which Bin Laden denied involvement in 9/11 is considered genuine,
and the later "confession" is suspect.
|1.26.07 @ 11:18AM|#
pinko
That's just what we did up here.
Which is why our government is paying him C$10 million. [I suspect
it is easier for Harper to do this than it would for the Liberals
as the events happened on previous Liberal government's watch.]
LorisDad|1.26.07 @ 11:20AM|#
Dear Jonnycakes:
My daughter spent a year in France going to School, and she went to
a family dinner with her boyfriend, whose father is career Intel.
in France (Deuxieme Bureau). He gave her basically the same
information as you relayed.
O'Reilly likes to think he is on El Qaeda's death list, but in
reality he has little to worry about.
VM|1.26.07 @ 11:21AM|#
"El-Quaeda"??
Ay Karumba (sic)
This, "FBI Agent". um.
Okay. You get the bullshit award of the week. Mein Gott. Between
your "FBI Agents" and the "meletary (sic) lawyers" wandering
around, it's no wonder that people sneak up on our little old
ladies, scaring their cats.
We're now all dumber from the experience of seeing your post.
kraest. it's time fer a drink.
|1.26.07 @ 11:24AM|#
Please, more the email-less newcomers who all agree with each other about the Jewish conspiracy theory!
|1.26.07 @ 11:24AM|#
You need to understand two very important rules while living in
this wonderful imperial republic called the USA:
Rule #1. The United States Government is always right. It does not
make mistakes. It does not error. It is stable and
consistent.
Rule #2. In the event of error or mistake or inconsistency, see
Rule #1.
|1.26.07 @ 11:26AM|#
Perhaps the reason is that he wasn't a terrorist then but, after what he's gone through, he now has cause to hate America.
|1.26.07 @ 11:28AM|#
An FBI Agent living in our neighborhood told me
that...
Probably the same guys who said there were WMD in Iraq...
I'll second VM's conclusion
thoreau|1.26.07 @ 11:35AM|#
This guy I know has a friend whose college roommate's girlfriend's cousin did an internship with the Illuminati. So I have it on good authority that Elvis is still alive.
|1.26.07 @ 11:36AM|#
I heard from one guy that the FBI knows that the guy we sent to
get tortured by the Syrians is a Mossad agent. It was all done to
find out what Syrian torture techniques are.
Apparently Syrian there was not a lot to learn about Syrian torture
techniques. They are still using the same old same old. But the TSA
has to keep the guy on the "no fly" list to maintain his cover.
|1.26.07 @ 11:37AM|#
"we remain of the view that the continued watch listing of
Mr. Arar is appropriate."
...because if we admit we screwed up, the floodgates will open and
terrorists will be on every airline, blimp and kite flight for the
next 50, make that 500 years!!!
uncle sam|1.26.07 @ 11:38AM|#
Didn't you know?
When people enter government, they enter a higher plane of
existence, a plane of...infallibility.
|1.26.07 @ 11:40AM|#
My half cousin's step-father knows a CIA agent who has seen solid proof that it was German Jews that attacked the USS Arizona as a spur in their plot to overthrow the German government and create a jewish homeland. I dare you to out crazy that Johnny.
|1.26.07 @ 11:41AM|#
Why would the FBI have files on Bin Laden? He's run the terror network entirely from abroad. That's the CIA's jurisdiction.
|1.26.07 @ 11:41AM|#
Can someone tell me, are there so many Israeli moving companies
that it can be perpetuated as a stereotype in a anti-semitic
conspiracy rant?
My last two groups of movers were just out of the Israeli army, and
one dude was a real badass motherfucker.
|1.26.07 @ 11:52AM|#
"kwais, is that parody?"
I am sorry if that was not obvious, it was not as funny as I
thought it was. But then before I had typed it there were no other
parodies preceding it, so it did seem funnier.
Sam Franklin|1.26.07 @ 12:00PM|#
Please, more the email-less newcomers who all agree with
each other about the Jewish conspiracy theory!
I don't think they said "Jewish," joe.
I am also unclear on why the possibility that 9-11 was a false flag
attack, in whole or in part, is not considered a possibility.
We really don't know who the highjackers were. We don't have much
of any real information about their connection to Al Queda or Bin
Laden.
That doesn't mean that Bin Laden didn't do it.
However, you should consider what you really "know" here and what
you are basically taking on faith. Just because the Democratic
party is convinced that the official story is basically true
doesn't mean you have to be.
Sam Franklin|1.26.07 @ 12:01PM|#
Why would the FBI have files on Bin Laden? He's run the
terror network entirely from abroad. That's the CIA's
jurisdiction.
Maybe he had close family members who visited the US at some
point.
|1.26.07 @ 12:07PM|#
The world is safe from any risky John Gilmores. Can't wait
until 5 years from now when this stuff prevents me from getting
jobs.
I can imagine some local politician trying to pass a law barring
people on the "no fly" list from living, working, or driving within
a 1000 ft of a school, day-care, church or municipal building. You
know, for safety and security.
|1.26.07 @ 12:09PM|#
Oh yeah and my English was horrible.
That the guy tortured by the Syrians was a Mossad agent.
And that he went through all that torture and there was nothing new
to report about Syrian torture.
The guy drew straws with the other Mossad agents.
The one guy got to video tape the planes hitting the towers
The other guy got to pretend to be a Candadian that was a faux
terrorist and had to go get tortured by the Syrians.
Hey, I heard that J Edgar Hoover was a Mossad agent. They made him
dress up in womens clothes so they could control him. He was an
Israely spy sent to spy on the Kennedys.
hardy arar...|1.26.07 @ 12:10PM|#
So, the goverment lets a guy out of Gitmo, he goes home and is
released. This is proof he was innocent.
The government catches a guy at the airport, he goes home (dual
citizen) and is arrested. This is proof he was innocent.
It's all so clear to me now.
We can't know for sure about this guy.
The Canadian goverment wouldn't have found him guilty if they had
videotape of him rodgering a nun with a plutonium dildo. It's not
politically correct to say any of our Islamic friends could
possibly commit a crime.
What he guilty of anything. Maybe. maybe not. (and I'll happily
give him the benefit of the doubt)
Either way, while the truth might 'be out there', we'll never ever
know the truth of this situation and using it as an example of
anything (good or bad) is like believing that John Lovitz was
married to ... oh... um... Scarlett Johanson.. yes.. that will
do.
|1.26.07 @ 12:15PM|#
so anyways those are my jokes in an attempt to make light if
what seemed like troll activity. What seem to me to be outlandish
claims of Mossad and whatnot. With the ridiculous "my friend the
FBI agent" claim.
But some of you might not be trolls and you might really believe
it.
I recommend a book called "Ghost Wars" it is about Bin Laden and
the CIA and American policy in Afghanistan prior to 9/11.
It is a great book and explains clearly and plainly how goverment
bureaucracy failed time and time again through the 90's and up to
9-11-01.
I know I sound like Gary Gunnels recommending a book and all. It is
a good book though.
|1.26.07 @ 12:16PM|#
I have a firm confirmation from my brother's friends girlfriends
cousin's husband's friend, who is janitor at Langley that Osama Bin
Laden is a mossad agent and that Joos blew up the twin towers so
they could send their US proxy army to obliterate Iraq, Iran, and
Syria, and turn the whole middle east into a JesusLand theme park,
the money for which will of course be controlled by a conspiracy of
jewish financiers.
And the biggest secret of all? The Joos are just pawns of the Space
People.
Whats funny is that this is not funny, and that there are people
out there who seriously believe this kind of stuff.
Sam Franklin|1.26.07 @ 12:17PM|#
Oh, boy. Here we go.
You must have noticed that these conspiracy theories sound more
plausible over time, rather than less.
There are people suspicious now who would not have been in 2005.
There were people suspicious in 2005 who were not in 2002.
We are actually getting to the point where these suspicions can be
raised in civilized discourse. That is a big step.
|1.26.07 @ 12:23PM|#
We are actually getting to the point where these suspicions
can be raised in civilized discourse. That is a big
step.
Only if you include obscure political message boards as "civilized
discourse". Raise some of these theories at your next office party
and see what sort of responses you get.
|1.26.07 @ 12:24PM|#
hardy arar... | January 26, 2007, 12:10pm |
We can't know for sure about this guy.
Pppppt.
Hardy, being More American than you, I have to say I'm not all that
sure about you. I know it's not 'politcally correct' to say that
someone who pretends to be a Good Christian American might be a
lying, pork-hating terrorist flunky. I feel that, to be sure, you
should be exported to Syria and tortured for a year. If the
Syrians, after a year, say you're just some nobody from Sheboygen,
well, thats no proof, so we'll let the Canadians investigate your
entire life history...and when they come up with nothing, we'll
just Keep an Eye on you, cause, you know, you Never Do Know. You
could be one of those 'muslim sympathizers', masking as a knee jerk
knucklehead. What is Good For America is Good for You.
I. Self. Divine.|1.26.07 @ 12:28PM|#
I know I sound like Gary Gunnels recommending a book and
all. It is a good book though.
Actually kwais, I genuinely appreciate it when people recommend
books here. I being a lowly undereducated college student am always
interested in a good read.
|1.26.07 @ 12:28PM|#
I'd like to believe our government is being extra careful,
preferring to err on the side of safety.
I have never been prone to trusting the government as Mr. Sullum
apparently is. Which is why I don't take his writing on the drug
war very seriously. After all, he doesn't like the drug war, but he
loves (and trusts) the politicians and judges that prosecute
it.
|1.26.07 @ 12:31PM|#
PS: Is this libertarianism now? Trust of government? Where did that come from? Townhall?
thoreau|1.26.07 @ 12:32PM|#
Johnny-
Did you read the sentence after that? Context matters, you
know.
Oh, never mind, let's just get it out of the way: "You know, for a
magazine called Reason..."
Drink!
|1.26.07 @ 12:34PM|#
I can imagine some local politician trying to pass a law
barring people on the "no fly" list from living, working, or
driving within a 1000 ft of a school, day-care, church or municipal
building. You know, for safety and security.
David, why are you giving them ideas?
Sam Franklin|1.26.07 @ 12:35PM|#
Only if you include obscure political message boards as
"civilized discourse". Raise some of these theories at your next
office party and see what sort of responses you get.
At a party at my office? There aren't really other USians at my
office. There are barely any whites. I guess it would be
interesting to know how immigrants from Central and Southern and
Pacific Rim Asian immigrants feel about these issues, but they are
a bit guarded on this stuf, in my experience.
|1.26.07 @ 12:36PM|#
This just in! The Jews and the Masons have formed an alliance with the Trilateralists. We don't stand a chance.
up to the Gil|1.26.07 @ 12:37PM|#
The more you repeat something the more people hear it and the
more people believe it. It's a common, well-documented, and
well-understood phenomenon.
Wishing, however frequently, does not make something so.
|1.26.07 @ 12:37PM|#
I did thoreau, I did read the whole post:
I'd like to believe our government is being extra careful,
preferring to err on the side of safety. But I suspect it is
actually being extra careless, refusing to admit the possibility of
error.
I'm sorry, I was drawn to libertarians back in the 70's and 80's
specifically because there was never, ever, a good enough reason to
"trust" the .gov.
|1.26.07 @ 12:39PM|#
As far as I can tell, from the total output of Mr. Sullums
writings over the years, he has an extremely unhealthy trust of
politicians. Except when he doesn't. It's really hard to pinpoint.
But...all in all, I pretty much don't trust anyone who "wants" to
trust the .gov. Do you?
Jus' sayin'.
hardly arar|1.26.07 @ 12:46PM|#
GILMORE,
You're utterly missing my point.
I'm not saying what happened was good, necessary, correct, or in
any other way acceptable.
What I'm saying is that we cannot use this case as an example of a
good thing or a bad thing because the TRUTH of it will never be
revealed as bare facts. What isn't said isn't known. What is said
is untrustworthy.
We believe the US government was lying when they said Arar was
Satan Jr. We believe the Canadian government when they say he's an
Angel in white.
Why? On what basis can we assess and judge EITHER of those
statements. Picking one shows more 'which side your on' than what
any of us actually knows.
I wouldn't trust the Canadian goverment if they had a Royal
Commission to prove that water is wet. Too many years of scandals,
lies, and corruption simply renders their utterances to be
unbelievable. Like the boy who cried wolf, when the government
utters truth, who would believe them (and how would you
know?)
I hold the US goverment in no particular regard on the subject
either.
That, in and of itself, is a Very Bad Thing (TM)
The entire subject is obfuscated to the point of uselessness. It
cannot be used as an example of anything other than the fact that
there is a very great deal done in secret that shouldn't be and
there is an equally great deal said in public that we have no basis
to fairly assess for accuracy.
That's all.
You can carry on with your hystronics now if it makes you feel
better.
hardly arar|1.26.07 @ 12:50PM|#
correction to my last:
I will stipulate, that sending people off to foreign countries
because you don't like the look of them is generally a bad idea. If
you have reason to arrest them do so in your own country. If you
don't, let them pass.
THAT is certainly a bad act in this whole story (whether or not
Arar was a devil or a saint).
|1.26.07 @ 12:51PM|#
the US government isn't to be graded or judged on the actual
real-world effects of our actions and policies
we are to be judged on our stated intentions only (subject to
revision as history neccesitates)
letting the world know that not only is our gov't not infallible,
but that it relied on hearsay evidence to imperiously and royally
fuck over some Canuck (who was in the country waiting for a
connecting flight home to Canada)? that would be a tragic risk to
our national security
"Everything secret degenerates, even the administration of justice;
nothing is safe that does not show how it can bear discussion and
publicity"
~Lord Acton
|1.26.07 @ 12:51PM|#
Oh, show of hands:
Who else thinks that Sam Franklin/Dave W. would be an utter hoot at
an office party after he's had his third Jack 'n' Coke*?
*But a Mexican Coke. Imported from Mexico. Where they still use
cane sugar, instead of Corn Syrup, which we all know is the cause
of everything from inner city street crime to cancer to acne.
|1.26.07 @ 12:52PM|#
"I will stipulate, that sending people off to foreign
countries because you don't like the look of them is generally a
bad idea."
Well, glad to know that it's just generally a bad idea.
Except in this case, when it must have been an utterly brilliant
stroke of national security genius.
|1.26.07 @ 12:57PM|#
"You must have noticed that these conspiracy theories (about the
Israelis being behind 9/11) sound more plausible over time, rather
than less."
Uh, no, not really. Maybe I'm just thick.
Jennifer|1.26.07 @ 12:58PM|#
I totally believe these conspiracy stories. That's why I'm
trying so damned hard to become Jewish myself. I figure if the
Jews, with less than one-half of one percent of the entire world
population, can successfully pull off ruling the world like that,
they are definitely bad-ass Nietzschean ubermensches, and I
want in.
Ah, Jews. Is there anything they can't do?
|1.26.07 @ 12:59PM|#
"Ah, Jews. Is there anything they can't do?"
They can't eat bacon. Yummy, yummy bacon.
Sam Franklin|1.26.07 @ 12:59PM|#
Who else thinks that Sam Franklin/Dave W. would be an utter
hoot at an office party after he's had his third Jack 'n'
Coke*?
somehow we never seem between the Sikhs and the Muslims and the
typical sub-Continental austerity and thrift, our Dinwalli parties
are generally limited to meatless pizzas and really gross
"sweets."
They even have a rule that no employee can take more than one piece
of pizza.
What I would really like to see is you all (well not Phil or that
guy who threatened me) at one of my office parties. Now that would
be a hoot.
Jennifer|1.26.07 @ 1:03PM|#
They can't eat bacon. Yummy, yummy bacon.
They CAN eat bacon; they simply CHOOSE not to. And you'd make the
same choice, if you knew as much about bacon as does the
Jewluminati. For starters, where do you think high-fructose corn
syrup comes from? Corn? Ha. That's what they want you to
think.
Stupid fucking sheeple. Oy vey and gevalt.
Sam Franklin|1.26.07 @ 1:04PM|#
At our last party, one of the employees snuck out early for a few minutes at the end (presumably to have a cigarette). He got yelled at. A lot.
VM|1.26.07 @ 1:06PM|#
David - heh :)
Didn't Phil already kick off, per wishes of Batshit Insane
Boy?
"You can carry on with your hystronics now if it makes you feel
better."
Thank you :)
Media - when you wrote "Mexican Coke", I had some sort of image
like a "Hot Karl" or something. Only after reading the whole thing
was the truth revealed. It's one of those days.
de stijl: man! You're on a roll today! Two snaps and a circle your
you, my good man!
cheers
|1.26.07 @ 1:06PM|#
mediageek,
You most certainly are. Of course so is Tony Snow.
I am not a libertarian. I don't trust the .gov, republican or
democrat, so as far as I can tell, that disqualifies me from being
a libertarian anymore at all.
|1.26.07 @ 1:08PM|#
Mediageek,
Mexican Coke with cane sugar actually tastes much better than the
corn syrup variety, but then you'd be supporting El Qaeda and
terrorists have won.
Sam Franklin|1.26.07 @ 1:09PM|#
btw, as the US is switching to cane, Mexico seems to be
switching to HFCS.
back in the Mission in 1995, Mexican Coke was de rigeur.
GILMORE|1.26.07 @ 1:10PM|#
Hardy =
Hystrionics? pot calling the stainless steel kettle black? :)
Your Epistemology is fascinating. "We can't ever know for sure."
The last refuge of the non-argument. Case study in reductio ad
ignorantium. The guy's been tortured by Syrians, Sued the
Canadians, (in the process requring tons of dicovery/due
dilligence), and he's been in the public eye nonstop now since his
release. His life has been picked apart by fricking 60Minutes for
christs sake. You aren't satisfied. Fine - what WOULD satisfy you?
Apparently nothing. So what's your point? Everyone is a potential
terrorist until.... well, they just are? It's totally useless to
have an opinion because you dont think anyone 'knows enough'?
"Hystrionics" is a mighty fancy word for a Supposed Christian
American too.... maybe a little bout of waterboarding will expose
the inner Qtubist here.
|1.26.07 @ 1:11PM|#
"somehow we never seem between the Sikhs and the Muslims and
the typical sub-Continental austerity and thrift, our Dinwalli
parties are generally limited to meatless pizzas and really gross
"sweets."
They even have a rule that no employee can take more than one piece
of pizza."
Christ, no wonder you're so fucking insane. Without meat and booze,
I'd probably be parading around teh intardwebs, unsupervised and
blathering about the dangers of guns smothered in corn syrup as
well.
biologist|1.26.07 @ 1:11PM|#
I'd just like to point out that pointing out the influence of
pro-Israel groups in the US and that the actions of the Israeli
government may not always be concordant with the best interests of
the US does not equal anti-semitism.
The Mossad does operate in the US.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/2294487.stm
wasn't there a guy convicted of spying for Israel, and the Israeli
government tried to get him released? I can't remember his name or
find it right now.
|1.26.07 @ 1:15PM|#
Just in case people don't have the full information on the
case... it has certainly been suppressed somewhat in the Canadian
media... here is what happened:
The RCMP (the Canadian version of the FBI), called U.S. officials,
and told them that Canada suspected Arar of being a
terrorist.
The U.S. said they would detain him, and ship him to Canada, so
long as the Canadian government would take him into tempory custody
to question him. After all, Canada was calling the U.S. and telling
them "Look out, we think this guy is going to attack the U.S.",
that is the least they should do.
When Canada refused to take him into custody for questioning (RCMP
agents were waiting for him at the airport to keep him under
survalence, but they didn't want to arrest him before they had
enough evidence to build a case), the U.S. then called Syria (the
guy is a citizen of Syria, and so it is totally legal to deport him
to Syria). Syria said, "Sure, we will take him into custody for
questioning".
This whole thing would have not happening, had the Canadian
government not told the U.S. that their own citizen was a
terrorist. The U.S. government had no reason to suspect the
Canadians were lying... and the U.S. government acted totally
legally (it is perfectly legal to deport a non-citizen without a
visa to a country of their citizenship... in this case
Syria).
If you think that the U.S. "exported torture" to Syria, you need to
think again. The U.S. and Syria aren't exactly close friends, if
you know what I mean. The idea that Syria would be torturing people
for the U.S. is silly, when Syria is supporting insurgent attacks
in Iraq, and when there is proxie violence between the U.S. and
Syria in Lebonon. If Syria tortured the guy, they did so because it
was in their own self-interest.
Now, I am one of the most anti-government people on this board, and
have been one of the harshest critics of the War on Terror here.
But this case is more about Canada's messed up policy of demanding
that people be treated like Canadian citizens by the country they
have duel citizenship in. Nearly all other countries, if you are
say a duel U.S. and Syrian citizenship, when you are in Syria the
U.S. government says "you are on your own... you are a Syrian
citizen and so don't expect special help from us". This is the
policy of most governments. But when a duel Canadian/Syrian
citizenship person is mistreated in Syria, the Canadian government
demands that the Syrian be treated as a Canadian, depite the fact
the person is a SYRIAN CITIZEN, IN SYRIA!!! This has caused all
sorts of diplomatic problems between Canada and other countries
(for example, when planning a trip to Iran not to long ago, I found
out it was easy for me being from the U.S. to get a visa, but not
for Canadians... as too many people with both Canadian and Iranian
citizenship were demanding to be treated like Canadians depspite
their Iranian citizenship).
|1.26.07 @ 1:15PM|#
First of all, I take it back. Not "Jewish" conspiracy. Israeli
conspiracy.
No need to hand these people a victim card.
|1.26.07 @ 1:18PM|#
"Mexican Coke with cane sugar actually tastes much better
than the corn syrup variety,"
No disagreement. I likes me some Mexican Coke.
Almost as much as I like Horchata. Yum.
Sam Franklin|1.26.07 @ 1:18PM|#
If you think that the U.S. "exported torture" to Syria, you
need to think again. The U.S. and Syria aren't exactly close
friends, if you know what I mean. The idea that Syria would be
torturing people for the U.S. is silly, when Syria is supporting
insurgent attacks in Iraq, and when there is proxie violence
between the U.S. and Syria in Lebonon. If Syria tortured the guy,
they did so because it was in their own self-interest.
the US didn't count on Syria torturing the guy and then sending
him back. They pretty much outsmarted the US on that. I always
wonder about the ones who don't get sent places that aren't out to
give the US or Canada a smart poke in the eye. i don't know their
names or how many there are.
VM|1.26.07 @ 1:21PM|#
Biologist:
yes - that's a good call. It's strange how often it gets forgotten.
Wellllll - maybe not. Just think of our joke, "why do you hate
America" comment - criticism of the WoT or WoI often provokes such
a reaction!
And I seem to recall a story about that, too. Sure - people do spy
for all countries, organizations, etc. out there.
biologist|1.26.07 @ 1:21PM|#
Rex Rhino, if that's true, why didn't the US just export him to his immediate, closer country of citizenship, where he had just come from, and alert the border crossings and airports to not allow him into the US, while the RCMP finished its investigation and built its case? instead, they alerted a possible terror network that we were on to one of their agents, and took actions that resulted an apparently innocent man being tortured.
|1.26.07 @ 1:22PM|#
"...they didn't want to arrest him before they had enough
evidence to build a case" Those BASTARDS!
"...the guy is a citizen of Syria, and so it is totally legal to
deport him to Syria..." It is a violation of federal law to deport
someone to a country if there is reason to believe he will be
killed, tortured, or persecuted there.
ed|1.26.07 @ 1:23PM|#
"Ah, Jews. Is there anything they can't do?"
They can't eat bacon. Yummy, yummy bacon.
I served a Jew roast pork once and took peculiar delight in it. He
seemed to enjoy it, and as far as I know, he is not yet
damned.
His god is weak.
Sam Franklin|1.26.07 @ 1:26PM|#
First of all, I take it back. Not "Jewish" conspiracy.
Israeli conspiracy.
Nor is Mossad a conspiracy. Its existence is openly acknowledged,
the fact that it sometimes takes covert actions is openly
acknowledged and it exists for legitimate purposes. It is not a
"conspiracy" any more than the CIA is a "conspiracy."
|1.26.07 @ 1:27PM|#
Yea, not my best snark, but it will have to do.
But really, would Mr. Sullum have written such a gentle post if it
was about the CDC or the FDA instead of Homeland Security?
It does seem to me that when you mention certain types danger, real
or imagined, libertarians become very conservative.
It's like security issues are Alar/Cancer scares for libertarians.
I'm just having a difficult time these days telling the difference
between Conservatives, Libertarians and Liberals.
Each have pet fears, but they don't seem to extend the lessons they
learn from one fear and applying them to new fears as they
arise.
VM|1.26.07 @ 1:29PM|#
The money quote:
"Now, I am one of the most anti-government people on this board,
and have been one of the harshest critics of the War on Terror
here. But"
|1.26.07 @ 1:30PM|#
"Nor is Mossad a conspiracy."
Of course not. Now, "Mossad caused 9/11 and planted evidence
implicating Al Qaeda" - THAT'S a conspiracy.
|1.26.07 @ 1:31PM|#
@biologist
wasn't there a guy convicted of spying for Israel, and the
Israeli government tried to get him released? I can't remember his
name or find it right now.
I think you're refering to Jonathan
Pollard. As far as I know, they're still demanding his
release.
Sam Franklin|1.26.07 @ 1:39PM|#
Of course not. Now, "Mossad caused 9/11 and planted evidence
implicating Al Qaeda" - THAT'S a conspiracy.
Even if this unsupported assertion turns out to be true, I still
say it would be more accurately described as a good, legitimate
organization gone bad, than as a "conspiracy."
Same reason I wouldn't really term ENRON's crimes as a "conspiracy"
(even though the criminal laws might define it that way).
Sam Franklin|1.26.07 @ 1:40PM|#
Though I think there was a "conspiracy" when they had that bum fall over dead in public last year. But that is post-ENRON.
|1.26.07 @ 1:42PM|#
"Yea, not my best snark, but it will have to do."
The ability to riff a good snark is a hallmark of being
libertarian.
Turn your decoder ring in, bitch.
Jennifer|1.26.07 @ 1:51PM|#
But really, would Mr. Sullum have written such a gentle post
if it was about the CDC or the FDA instead of Homeland
Security?
I have no difficulty imagining Sullum or anyone else here writing a
sentence like "I'd like to believe the FDA's disapproval of
over-the-counter contraceptives was inspired by concern for our
health rather than pandering to religious conservatives."
Seriously: are you not familiar with the concept of "context" as it
applies to reading? The "I'd like to imagine they're concerned
about safety," in context, demonstrates the appalling divide
between the motivations that would inspire our government's
behavior in an ideal world, versus the motivations of the bastards
we've actually got.
|1.26.07 @ 1:55PM|#
Shannon,
Thats just what the Crab People want you to think.
The Truth they Dont Want You to Know is that the Crab People are
just operatives for Satan's Army of Jewish Space Squids....which,
like, control teh corporshuns, man, which is why i'm aure my pot's
been sprayed with mind control chemicals. Thats why I boil it
first.
I love the internet. I Googled "jews are just pawns of the aliens",
and SHAZAAM! A whole world of nutjobs devoted to just this
premise.
http://www.thewatcherfiles.com/sherry/invasion.htm
dhex|1.26.07 @ 1:59PM|#
"You must have noticed that these conspiracy theories sound more
plausible over time, rather than less."
not really, if only because the same thing - carte blanche to get a
patriot act, invade afghanistan and iraq, etc - if they'd only
blown up a few planes on the runway. this way you still get a huge
body count, but you save a lot of financial infrastructure. plus
you could orchestrate a really nice last minute anti-terrorist
heroism type drama to add to the pile ("let's roll (TM)" never
really did it for me, frankly. a little too plastic wal-mart flag,
you know?)
GILMORE|1.26.07 @ 2:06PM|#
Warning to all -
this entity that calls itself dhex is a plant by the MJ-12 to
create complacency amongst the human populace
http://www.rahabisreturning.com/anuk.htm
dhex|1.26.07 @ 2:09PM|#
holy shit dude it's a burroughs novel come to life!
" The only way to defend yourself against evil and even aliens
other than by prayer is with orgone made right. Orgone that's made
right will suffocate evil and they can't breathe being around it,
so they'll stay away from the area with it in it. See
http://www.tearingdownstrongholds.com or buy some orgone blasters
now and keep them out of your house and yard. They're called tower
busters because they're mostly used for nulling the weapon attacks
and subliminal messages from towers, but I'm finding these things
also serve as an evil-repellant and will keep aliens and demons out
of your house and yard. If you're a believer in Yahshuah-Jesus
Christ, they're already in your yard or house if you're rebuking
them. These ob's will keep them out to begin with."
academy 23 indeed!
dhex|1.26.07 @ 2:15PM|#
chemtrails chemtrails chemtrails!
http://www.sherryshriner.com/
btw, benny hinn is an agent of the knights templar.
what i like about the conspiracy stuff is that it utterly,
completely and totally fails any sort of "so what?" test. the
answer to "What should we do" is a) feel haughty and superior to
the sheeple b) buy more of my books/dvds and c) start your own
self-publishing biz if you can.
notzionista|1.26.07 @ 2:17PM|#
I live in Israel. The Israelis who were captured celebrating the
fall of the Twin Towers were not urban legend, they were real.
After their release, they came back to Israel, denying that they
"Celebrated". Remarkably, however, they admitted they were
originally sent over to the U.S. to "document the event."
In other words, they had advance knowledge. This information is
carefully ignored by the U.S. media who is loathe to say anything
offensive about Israel. A Koran lying in the front seat of the van!
How gullible can you Americans be? Isn't it rather obvious that it
was deliberately planted for maximum political effect?
VikingMoose|1.26.07 @ 2:20PM|#
Wow, there, johnnycakes. A new handle. And a new location. Did
the French Girlfriend's stepbrother CIA FBI man live next door
there in Haifa? Or am I confusing your fantasies?
All that asbestos in grandma's basement sure has played hell with
your brain.
|1.26.07 @ 2:26PM|#
"Now, I am one of the most anti-government people on this
board, and have been one of the harshest critics of the War on
Terror here. But"
Yeah, I said it... because I am capable of nuanced understanding of
the issues. I can be totally against the War on Terror, but realize
when the significance of a specific case has been overblown. I can
be against Gitmo, against the patriot act, against illegal
wiretaps, against terrorist paranoia... and at the same time see
that the U.S. government didn't do anything particularly bad in
this specific case (It deported a Syrian citizen to a country of
his citizenship). I can see how the Canadian government, who caused
the issue in the first place, has a huge political incentive to try
to shift the blame to the U.S..
It is a violation of federal law to deport someone to a country
if there is reason to believe he will be killed, tortured, or
persecuted there.
How would the U.S. know he would be killed, tortured, or persecuted
in Syria in this specific case? Other than "Syria are bad and evil
and we know they torture people" (which could be said about most of
the countries in the world, including the U.S.), what specific
knowledge did the U.S. have that he would be tortured?
If there is any evidence somewhere that the U.S. sent him to Syria,
specificly to be tortured, please let me know and I will readily
admit that you were right and I was wrong. But in this case, it
seems like the only "knowledge" the U.S. had the guy would be
tortured is a negative stereotype of Syria - Isn't the government
NOT supposed to act based simply on negative stereotypes?
hardly arar|1.26.07 @ 2:27PM|#
GILMORE
Who said I was american or Christian for that matter?
As to the rest, production of the specific and detailed information
leading to his 'transportation' would be a good start. They made a
claim. The only way to assess the claim is to see it in full
detail. This of course will never happen.
The chain of events as Rex relate is fairly accurate. Thus, the
question of interest is 'what did the RCMP have on Arar?' If it was
'well, he talked to this guy, who we think talked to another guy,
who once read a book, written by a guy, who attended the same
highschool as a guy with the same name as a suspected terrorist'
then, just maybe, we might know their argument was weak. On the
other hand, if they, for example, found semi-completed bombs built
into laptop computers in the guys apartment, perhaps they have a
point.
My personal suspicion, is that the 'evidence' was more in the
former class than the latter, but it would be nice to KNOW that
since my 'suspicions' and 50 cents won't get you an extra shot
never mind a whole coffee.
And yes, we ARE all potential terrorists to say nothing of being
potential shoplifters, arsonists and whatever one calls the crime
of reading beat poetry in public. That's irrelevant of course. You
cannot (or at least should not) arrest/try/convict (when they
bother with such nicities) for 'potential'. But you knew this.
|1.26.07 @ 2:35PM|#
"You must have noticed that these conspiracy theories (about
the Israelis being behind 9/11) sound more plausible over time,
rather than less."
A little help for those in need ... conspiracies aren't made more
or less plausible by motivation, but by the necessary extent of the
conspiracy. The most simple explanation is likely the correct
explanation. On the one hand, a religious nut finally pulls off the
attack he's been crowing about for years, on the other, a nation
conspires to attack the worlds superpower and frame their enemies
for the deed, oh, and successfully cover the whole thing up with
the exception of a few loons on the internets.
|1.26.07 @ 2:39PM|#
We are actually getting to the point where these suspicions
can be raised in civilized discourse. That is a big
step.
Backwards.
thoreau|1.26.07 @ 2:40PM|#
pigwiggle-
But what if the loons on teh internetz are part of the conspiracy?
They are paid to discredit it by talking about it!
|1.26.07 @ 2:44PM|#
My personal suspicion, is that the 'evidence' was more in
the former class than the latter
dude... your suspicion? Why rely on that when you can watch 60
Minutes... this stuff isnt all secrety secret as you characterize
it as.
And if you're not a Christian American, then, hell.... someone have
this guy deported to Diego Garcia, and warm up the electrodes,
cause somethin bout this guy aint all right.
VM|1.26.07 @ 3:00PM|#
"because I am capable of nuanced understanding of the
issues"
doesn't seem like it. Seems like another series of excuses that go
back to Jacob's final point, "refusing to admit the possibility of
error".
Nice try, tho. Actually it wasn't.
|1.26.07 @ 3:01PM|#
Ah, Jennifer, your continuing desire to join our club is
touching. I'm sure you could find a sympathetic rabbi to make the
necessary incantations.
As for the conspiracy theories, well, I'm keeping my rifle and a
sufficient supply of ammunition just in case. Some goyim just can't
be trusted.
|1.26.07 @ 3:02PM|#
"How would the U.S. know he would be killed, tortured, or
persecuted in Syria in this specific case?"
LOL! Yes, how could we know that the Syrian government, best know
for putting down an uprising by Sunni Islamists by killing a
quarter of million people in Hama, would torture a prisoner we tell
them is connected to Al Qaeda?
|1.26.07 @ 3:05PM|#
Apparently, the idea that Syria tortures people it suspects of
being Islamic terrorists is a "sterotype."
Someone tell Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and the
State Department.
|1.26.07 @ 3:13PM|#
doesn't seem like it. Seems like another series of excuses
that go back to Jacob's final point, "refusing to admit the
possibility of error".
Are an idiot? Do you regularly read this message boards? If you
have, you would realize that I am one of the more firebrand
anti-government types on the board. Accusing me of "refusing to
admit the possiblity of error" by the U.S. government is the
stupidest thing I have ever heard of. I am usually doing nothing
*BUT* accusing the U.S. government of error. Your accusations are
absurd.
|1.26.07 @ 3:39PM|#
For Hardy
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v5/content/subscribe?user_URL=http://www.theglobeandmail.com%2Fservlet%2Fstory%2FRTGAM.20040123.warar0123%2FBNStory%2FFront%2F&ord=1169843646716&brand=theglobeandmail&force_login=true
"U.S. cited acquaintances in deporting Arar
"From Friday's Globe and Mail =
The only stated reason the United States deported Maher Arar to
Syria is that he admitted he knew two Ontario men who were also
under RCMP investigation and later jailed as terrorism suspects in
Syria. According to U.S."
These other 2 men were also redered to syria and released, FYI,
when they turned out to be dead ends as well. They are now trying
to get standing to testify in Arars case to clarify that if this is
a case of guilt by association then the associees should all be
present to testify as to their relationship...
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2004/04/30/arar_040430.html
This guy does good job tracking the details =
http://www.damnforeigner.com/archives/cat_maher_arar.html
Hope that helps
|1.26.07 @ 3:45PM|#
The idea that Syria would be torturing people for the U.S.
is silly
Rex
This statement is silly. Why did we ship him there? Both nations
have Anti Al-Q interests in common. Diplomacy can include people
otherwise at odds finding areas where they can work together. They
torture suspected al q members - have done so for long time. We've
been using foreign govts to torture people for us in many
documented cases... why would you consider this any different?
|1.26.07 @ 3:50PM|#
An FBI Agent living in our neighborhood told me that, one,
the FBI lacks evidence implicating Bin Laden and El-Quaeda in the
9/11 attacks
You mean the FBI missed the videotape of bin Laden saying "When we
planned the attacks, we thought crashing planes into the World
Trade Center would just cause a couple of really hellacious fires.
Bringing them down was just gravy."
You know, immediately after 9/11, I too was sceptical of the
universal assumption that bin Laden must have been behind it. After
all, we're talking about the same government that was sure that
Richard Jewell had set off the pipe bomb in Atlanta. But reading
about bin Laden's gloating videotapes persuaded me that even our
intelligence-challenged (in both senses of the word) government may
have gotten it right this time.
|1.26.07 @ 4:22PM|#
This guy I know has a friend whose college roommate's girlfriend's cousin did an internship with the Illuminati. So I have it on good authority that Elvis is still alive.
You realize that by this time, every former Illuminati intern with
a female cousin with a roommate who has a friend who knew someone
you once knew at some point in your life has been debriefed on this
subject?
Of course, they've probably already gotten you, Thoreau.
Oh, no. Now they're coming for everyone who's read your
comment!
|1.26.07 @ 4:24PM|#
This *is* the same Syria that we're now supposedly not talking
to because they're so evil and
we-can't-trust-them-enough-to-negotiate-with-them, right?
The DOJ is nuts.
Sam Franklin|1.26.07 @ 5:18PM|#
But reading about bin Laden's gloating videotapes
Reading about videotapes is like dancing about architecture.
thoreau|1.26.07 @ 5:29PM|#
Of course, they've probably already gotten you,
Thoreau.
Sergeant Raymond Shaw is the bravest soldier that I've ever
met.
|1.26.07 @ 6:20PM|#
My wife's uncle was in the army stationed in Germany years ago
and he met this Turkish guy whose sister married a Jew and nearly
got kicked out of the family, but not because he was a Jew, but
because she ran off to get married in Las Vegas and invited
everybody but her rich uncle, who knew the President of the United
States at the time who could have gotten their cousin a visa, which
doesn't seem like a big deal until you consider that their cousin's
name was Abdul, and Abdul was trying to start a company that would
import wheat to China, where there was this old lady who swallowed
a fly, and I don't know why she swallowed the fly - perhaps she'll
die.
Oh yeah, and Suzie told me she likes you, but don't let her know
that you know, you know?
dhex|1.26.07 @ 9:20PM|#
"And yes, we ARE all potential terrorists to say nothing of
being potential shoplifters, arsonists and whatever one calls the
crime of reading beat poetry in public. That's irrelevant of
course."
no, i'd say that's super relevant and like, super duper bad. we are
not - well, i hesistate to speak for everyone, but for most -
potential terrorists. or arsonists or shoplifters for that
matter.
that such an attitude can be entertained is the gate to state power
that is super-duper-ooper bad news.
wayne|1.27.07 @ 8:02AM|#
After reading this board, who needs drugs?
Jennifer, if I was the head jew, I would welcome you with open
arms. Why is Apostate Jew playing hard to get?
Jennifer|1.27.07 @ 11:19AM|#
Why is Apostate Jew playing hard to get?
Because Jews are all secretive and conspiratorial, damn their
non-goyische hides.
|1.27.07 @ 12:10PM|#
OK for those of you conspiracy minded dudes.
1) I don't really know why pick on the Jews?
2) I think these conspiracies make sense because prior to 9/11 none
of y'all had heard of OBL. But really he had been trying his stuff,
sinse the early '90s. The CIA and the State Dept, and our govt in
General had been failing in regards to him since before then.
He declared war on us in the '90s
There was the first world trade center attack. There were the
embassy bombings. There was the USS Cole, there were wire
intercepts of his plans for a long time. Motivated people at the
CIA had been trying to raise the alarm about him for a while.
He did not just happen overnight.
|1.27.07 @ 12:33PM|#
You know, immediately after 9/11, I too was sceptical of the
universal assumption that bin Laden must have been behind it. After
all, we're talking about the same government that was sure that
Richard Jewell had set off the pipe bomb in Atlanta. But reading
about bin Laden's gloating videotapes persuaded me that even our
intelligence-challenged (in both senses of the word) government may
have gotten it right this time.
The other side of that is, even if true, ask any cop how many false
confessions the police get for major crimes every day. Cases with
videotaped confessions are thrown out of court all the time, for
one reason or another.
In some parts of the world the WTC attacks are considered acts of
heroism, not crimes. He had some incentive for taking credit
whether or not he was actually involved (and what level was that
involvement? Was he an active participant, or did he simply tell an
adjunct group of conspirators, "Good luck, and write if you find
work!"?).
I'd be curious to hear from any lawyers out here - based on the
evidence available in the public record, what are the chances a
prosecuter could obtain a conviction against bin Laden?
My own, decidedly unprofessional, evaluation tells me that
prosecuter would have an uphill battle.
|1.27.07 @ 6:40PM|#
I think that they'd be hard pressed to get an indictment on
OBL
in fact, if the 9/11 attacks were to have been pursued as a
criminal investigation, one of the guys we could have got an
indictment on (General Mahmoud Ahmad, who wiring Mohammed Atta
100,000 dollars in Florida the summer before the attacks) is a free
man, retired from his job as chief spook (ISI) for our allies in
the GWoT, Pakistan.
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