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Zero Tollerance Folly
Today's "school officials accuse five-year-old of sexual harassment" incident is brought to you by Hagerstown, Maryland.
|12.21.06 @ 8:54PM|#
The regularity with which this stupidity gets repeated makes me
think the right-wingers have a point about not trusting schools to
handle sex-ed in an age-appropriate manner.
He's FIVE. WTF?
The Wine Commonsewer|12.21.06 @ 9:13PM|#
I can recall a few things that TWC should not have probably done that involved school and girls. Some of the offensive behavior dates back to about 4th grade. Several of the offenses would have gotten me expelled from school by today's standards.
M|12.21.06 @ 9:21PM|#
It's spelled Hagerstown. (Though Hagar also knew a thing or two about harassment.)
|12.21.06 @ 9:46PM|#
Has the human race become infected by some virus that causes our
brains to atrophy?
Why are so many people voluntarily deciding to stop thinking, and
instead handing over everyday decision making to personless systems
of authority such as "state guidelines" and institutional "codes"
of speech and conduct?
Whatever happened to common sense?
Land of the free and home of the brave? Or,
land of the regulated and home of the fearful of thinking for
themselves?
The Age of Enlightenment is long past.
What do you call this current age?
|12.21.06 @ 9:53PM|#
Chalk another one up to the greatest American, socialist
institution. I think these "educators" are just horrible people and
I do not understand why people deal with public "education".
Regards,
TDL
|12.21.06 @ 10:02PM|#
"Learning opportunity"
Yes, indeed. It's good to learn, at a young age, that some people
are simply jackasses.
|12.21.06 @ 10:03PM|#
Yes, go ahead and install a shame and fear in the boy for making
physical contact with another human being. I'm sure that will turn
him into a well adjusted kid later in life.
Asshats.
|12.21.06 @ 10:27PM|#
Maybe the real "learning opportunity" was the chance to tell a
young boy that it's not appropriate to touch a young girl in that
manner and to avoid such behavior in the future.
One would think that the point of education is supposed to be that
you have an opportunity to train for the real world without
consequences for making mistakes that would be more costly had they
occured in the real world. Maybe somebody should let the MD Dept of
Ed in on the secret...
|12.21.06 @ 10:44PM|#
Reason 14 why I send my kids to private school.
Every time I hear about one of these stories it breaks my heart.
That these fools are so oblivious to the damage they do is
mindboggling. And to think they went to college ostensibly to do
some good in the world.
Either...
1. Education classes were easier than math, science or accounting
or...
2. They desired a college education that prepared their mind with
neither critical thinking skills of a liberal arts degree or with
technical skills that might command an impressive salary.
What a waste. Across the board, on so many levels, a sheer pathetic
waste.
|12.21.06 @ 10:47PM|#
During the 2005-06 school year, 28 kindergarten students in
Maryland were suspended for sex offenses, including sexual assault,
sexual harassment and sexual activity, according to state data.
Fifteen of those suspensions were for sexual harassment.
Wow. Is it just me, or are kindergarteners getting really tough
these days? I'd hate to run into one in a dark alley, that's for
sure.
|12.21.06 @ 10:56PM|#
Dear Madpad:
When I got my teaching credential, we had a saying, "Those who
can't, teach. Those who can't teach, teach teachers."
People who end up in those positions, don't have enough common
sense to handle classroom teaching.
|12.21.06 @ 11:23PM|#
"Either...
1. Education classes were easier than math, science or accounting
or...
2. They desired a college education that prepared their mind with
neither critical thinking skills of a liberal arts degree or with
technical skills that might command an impressive salary."
The education industry is starting to catch on to the notion that a
degree in education does not necessarily make one an effective
teacher. A degree in the SUBJECT one teaches tend to make one an
effective teacher. But how does one get a degree in "Kindergarten?"
I think it is by being a parent/older sibling/aunt/uncle etc. By
being around kids and seeing the silly stuff they do, you learn how
to separate the innocent acts from the stupid or the intentionally
hurtful acts - yes, at four and five, kids learn how to be
intentionally hurtful. Unfortunate but true.
But intentionally sexually harassing someone? IIRC, whenever I
would make inappropriate contact with another person, my mom would
firmly but gently point out that it is not polite to touch other
people that way. That was how my parents approached pretty much all
behavior modification when I was growing up. Problem solved, no
quasi-criminal records or offender registry needed.
this story made my head hurt.
|12.21.06 @ 11:25PM|#
Sometimes I think I may have too much common sense to be a teacher. It is my intended profession. But I am not sure I will be able to sit idly by and stifle my pragmatism while the Asshats that Be mete out ridiculous justice.
Guy Montag|12.21.06 @ 11:28PM|#
(Responding in true /. style, not reading the article)
Ahem, not sure if this applies, but a teacher of very young
students friend of mine was telling me last year that the boys
would reach up and grab her breasts frequently. She taught 3rd
grade or younger, don't remember exactly.
She is also a bartender, so that is how I found out about it.
When I was that age I had the thoughts but would not act, I
suspect, due to some sort of forgotten discipline that I had as a
child.
From the way the children of cowple act these days, we can rule out
discipline as any sort of factor in this behavior.
Xanthippas|12.21.06 @ 11:46PM|#
Lord these people are ignorant. Look, here's there own
definition for "sexual harassment":
"...unwelcome sexual advances, request for sexual favors and/or
other inappropriate verbal, written or physical conduct of a sexual
nature directed toward others."
See a common theme there? I do. The "sexual" aspect of the
behavior. And here's a definition of "sexual" from Merriam Webster:
"of, relating to, or associated with sex."
That's why this statement doesn't make any sense: "It's important
to understand a child may not realize that what he or she is doing
may be considered sexual harassment, but if it fits under the
definition, then it is, under the state's guidelines," Mowen said.
"If someone has been told this person does not want this type of
touching, it doesn't matter if it's at work or at school, that's
sexual harassment."
No, no, no, no, no. If a kid pinches some other kid's butt, but
it's harassment that is "of, or relating to, or associated with
sex" then it is by definition, NOT "sexual harassment." In another
words, even by THEIR OWN DEFINITION, this kid's behavior is only
sexual harassment if it's sexual in nature. Which in this case,
it's not.
So their explanation is a load of baloney. And I'm sure they have a
lawyer somewhere telling them that right now.
Bill|12.22.06 @ 12:09AM|#
Joe,
The regularity with which this stupidity gets repeated makes me
think the right-wingers have a point about not trusting schools to
handle sex-ed in an age-appropriate manner.
Yes they do.They don't like much of what the State does anymore
than libertarians.Unfortunately the expression of this belief is
that the State should do something else more to their
liking.Contrast with liberals who believe the State should do more
of everything.
TCR|12.22.06 @ 3:32AM|#
I think everyone here is being a little unfair to the school.
I've been a teacher for about six years, and trust me, there's
almost always more to the story than what you read in the paper.
Look at what the article says: "Kindergartener suspended for
pinching a girl's butt." Obviously that sounds outrageous, but
there's a lot we don't know.
Hypothetically, let's say this kid has a problem with pinching
little girls on the butt. He'd not doing it once or twice, but all
the time.
The teacher is getting complaints from the girls and talks to the
kid. He won't stop. The principal talks to the kid. He still won't
stop. They give him "time-outs" and so on. He still won't
stop.
They talk to the kid's parents, who tell the teacher and principal
to go fuck themselves. (This happens all the time. For instance
here's a conversation I had with a parent a few weeks ago: Me:
"Sir, your son punched another student in the face during fifth
period today." Dad: "Go fuck yourself." True story.)
Anyway, now the school is getting complaints from these girls'
parents demanding that something be done. Maybe it goes to the
Superintendent - shit goes up the plagpole pretty quick most of the
time. So now what can the school do BUT suspend the kid? It's a
no-win situation, but they decide they don't want to deal with it
anymore, and they want to get a paper trail started on this kid so
that legally they have a leg to stand on somewhere down the road
when they get sued for letting a serial ass-pincher run free in the
classroom.
So they suspend him.
After they do, the story gets out. Because the school is bound by
confidentiality, none of this comes to light. Nothing's stopping
the boy's parents from talking to the papers though, and of course
they are going to play down what their kid's been doing and scream
about how outrageous it is to suspend a five year old for sexual
harassment. And now we're talking about what a bunch of jackasses
are running this school on H&R, even though in all likelihood
they're just hardworking people stuck in a situation with no upside
and trying to do the best they can.
Now I don't know that that's what happened in this case, but I've
been in the field long enough to know that that's how stuff goes
down ALL THE TIME.
Sorry for the long post, but my point is that most people have not
a clue what it's like to teach, but everybody thinks they can do a
better job at it than the people who have made it their life's
work.
|12.22.06 @ 4:34AM|#
TCR,
"Obviously that sounds outrageous, but there's a lot we don't
know."
Granted, the whole story usually doesn't make it into print. BUT,
even if your hypothesis were true, they didn't have to use "sexual
harrassment" as the reason. "Disruptive behavior" would have worked
just as well.
They didn't, they're idiots.
ed|12.22.06 @ 8:17AM|#
The pinched ass was bad enough, but he sealed his fate when he added, "You know you want it, biotch!"
|12.22.06 @ 8:36AM|#
I see this mostly as a chance to relate one more cute story
about my sons, and their understanding of relationships between men
and women. Aaron, who is in preschool, announced that he was going
to marry his classmates Kathryn, Ellie, and Maggie. Andy, who had
just turned eight, replied, "you can't do that Aaron. Some of them
have to be your ex-wives."
As to the actual subject of the post, the school overreacted, but I
think TWC has a point. My general assumption about any "look at
those idiots" story, especially one involving schools private or
public, is that there is lots more information we don't get. That
said, suspending the kid for "sexual harrassment" is just
idiotic.
TCR|12.22.06 @ 9:23AM|#
they didn't have to use "sexual harrassment" as the reason.
"Disruptive behavior" would have worked just as well.
You make a good point. On the other hand, there are laws in place
that say schools have to report sexual harassment as such and they
were probably just covering their asses.
Like I said, there's always a chance that this could end up in
court at some point and they'd need to show that they complied with
the law, which they did, even though you might not like the
result.
BTW, the penalty for NOT reporting sexual harassment is being fired
(yes, even if you're tenured) and being permanently stripped of
your credential. And that's not even counting the monetary
judgements against you.
A lot of the blame for this goes to politicians and activists who
push for these laws to "protect the children." It puts teachers in
a position where they have to do things they might not agree
with.
TCR|12.22.06 @ 9:25AM|#
FWIW, I think it's outrageous too. Especially in light of the stuff I see everyday that goes unpunished. My point is that you shouldn't be too quick to judge in these situations.
|12.22.06 @ 9:39AM|#
I think you make some good points, TCR. The zero-tolerance stuff isn't coming from the teachers and administrators, it comes from city hall and the state. Everything is a school system is dictated by official policy at this point. The is no allowance for people to make an independent decision because such decisions are actionable.
|12.22.06 @ 9:45AM|#
TCR
So soes that mean if you have sex with a student in the NYC public
schools (let's assume highschool otherwise it would be really
disgusting)it may take several years to fire the unionized teacher.
But if you see someone else do it and don't report it all bets are
off and your out of there?
John M. Joy|12.22.06 @ 9:50AM|#
Over at my martial arts instructor's forum, we have been
discussing the "everything's about sex" meme infesting society as
of late. (The context is the case of Jerome Hunt, a seventeen year
old state champ wrestler from South Dakota, who is presently facing
21 counts of RAPE - each with a potential 25 year sentence -
apparently over a well-known but admittedly somewhat infamous move
known colloquially as the "oil check" - Google if you don't know /
can't figure out what this means.)
Link (to Ron's forum, and, from there, news coverage) is under my
name, above.
JMJ
|12.22.06 @ 9:54AM|#
TCR, I can see your hypothetical and I appreciate your
experience.
Despite my negative post regarding teacher education, I'm not
prejudiced against educators.
But accusing this child of "conduct of a sexual nature directed
toward others" AND providing no satisfactory avenue for
appeal.
Per the article...
School officials consider a student's age and the specific
action when determining what administrative action to take, Mowen
said.
This appears to be a lie. A 5-year-old with no knowledge of sex is
the wrong target for a saxual harrasment allegation.
"Anytime a student touches another student inappropriately, it
could be sexual harassment," Teach said.
This appears to be a moronic (at best) understanding of sexual
harrasment.
You could be right, but from what I can see, the statements offered
by the school officials telegraph none of that.
|12.22.06 @ 9:57AM|#
The education industry is starting to catch on to the notion
that a degree in education does not necessarily make one an
effective teacher. A degree in the SUBJECT one teaches tend to make
one an effective teacher.
I taught high school history for a short time, and I had both a
degree in my subject and a masters of education. Prior to my
teaching experience I would have agreed with this statement.
However, in reality my teaching degree was far more useful in the
classroom than my college degree. There are a lot of skills
involved in teaching that an untrained person, no matter how
knowledgeable in the subject matter, simply wouldn't know.
Of course, in a perfect world all our teachers would have degrees
in both. But given a choice, I'd rather my children had teachers
who have been trained in how children learn; intelligent adults can
learn enough subject matter in a short period of time to teach it
to the kids.
Of course, I'm assuming "intelligent." It should go without saying
that stupid teachers are stupid teachers, regardless of what their
degree is in.
|12.22.06 @ 10:01AM|#
John M Joy,
Your post about Jerome Hunt was interesting. It appears the
complaints come from his own teammates.
As a former high school wrestler, while I think it's a bit over the
top to accuse him of rape, the guy's a jerk. If you're a champion
because you can jam your thumb up an opponent's bunghole, you
deserve some level of scorn - especially if you've done it to your
teammates in practice. 21 counts suggests it was one of his
favorite tricks.
But instead of filing charges, his teammates should have taken him
aside and beat the shit out of him before breaking his thumbs.
TCR|12.22.06 @ 10:16AM|#
So soes that mean if you have sex with a student in the NYC
public schools (let's assume highschool otherwise it would be
really disgusting)it may take several years to fire the unionized
teacher. But if you see someone else do it and don't report it all
bets are off and your out of there?
I don't know if you're talking about a specific case, and I don't
know what the NYC education system is like (I live in California)
but I do have some personal experience with this.
A former college roommate of mine who went, like me to be a middle
school music teacher, was caught having sex with a student. The
"affair" had been going on for almost a year, and by the time it
came out she had moved on into High School (That's right, he had
sex with a twelve year old girl).
He was arrested AT SCHOOL, tried, convicted, and sentenced to
prison for ten years (he'll end up serving four). He was
immediately fired and stripped of his credential. The teacher's
union rightly wanted nothing to do with him.
So no, it doesn't take years to get rid of someone having sex with
a kid. There's this idea out there that tenured teachers can't be
fired for any reason. Not true.
And by the way, what rock were you living under that you missed the
half-dozen or so teacher-student sex scandals that came out this
year? All those people were immediately fired too, but I guess you
missed that.
John M. Joy|12.22.06 @ 10:19AM|#
Madpad:
Yup, for sure. But you have to admit it's a bit more than a LITTLE
over the top to levy charges of rape, given the context. From what
I can see (and, admittedly, I know none of the people involved, and
can only go by what's been reported in the media), the whole thing
was handled VERY badly.
FWIW, we had a case here in Connecticut a few years back, in
Trumbull. It was a very out-of-hand hazing case. The guys in
question beat the crap out of teammates, hogtied them with tape,
and, in at least one incident, shoved plastic cutlery up a
teammate's behind. (I'm going from memory here, so take with number
of grains necessary and proper, but) I believe the net results were
a bunch of suspensions, and a few guys with criminal assault
charges which (again, if memory serves) netted them a couple years
of accelerated rehab. And this for actions that were completely,
unarguably beyond the pale.
My gist in Ron's forum, though, was that, specifics of the case
aside, it seems like EVERYTHING in society, lately, is seen through
the lens of sexuality. Thus, we have the "Wise Sages of Basketball"
pronouncing "wrestlers are gay" (with a lot of heads nodding in
concurrence) - and kindergarteners "sexually harassing"
classmates.
I mean, c'mon. Even Freud had to admit that sometimes a cigar is
just a cigar.
JMJ
TCR|12.22.06 @ 10:23AM|#
You could be right, but from what I can see, the statements
offered by the school officials telegraph none of that.
Madpad,
I didn't see it in the article either, and if I didn't know better
I wouldn't have thought anything more of it.
But remember, the school is bound by confidentiality and can't
really discuss the facts of the case with anyone other than the
parents. What they are quoted as saying in the article is exactly
the kind of boilerplate that they put out in this kind of situation
because they can't say anything else. Notice that all the quotes
come from the "spokesperson" who is probably in reality a
high-level bureaucrat experienced in talking without saying
anything. Again, its a CYA move.
|12.22.06 @ 2:04PM|#
Calling the 'butt pinching' sexual harassment is indeed
idiotic.
The policy under which this ocurred did not come from the teacher,
or even the principal. Elected school board members develop and
approve all school policies. I seriously doubt that the teacher
involved referred the boy to the principal for 'sexual harassment'.
If you want to blame someone, try the board members who are so
afraid of even frivolous lawsuits that they produce idiotic
policies. Or, perhaps you could blame the voters who continually
elect such people to represent them.
RSDavis|12.22.06 @ 7:10PM|#
The Age of Enlightenment is long past.
What do you call this current age?
The Dawn of the Dim.
- R
RSDavis|12.22.06 @ 9:15PM|#
Is there a difference between "Zero Tolerance" and "100%
intolerance?"
- R
M|12.23.06 @ 4:16PM|#
On the other hand, there are laws in place that say schools
have to report sexual harassment as such and they were probably
just covering their asses.
TCR wins the thread.
|12.25.06 @ 1:51PM|#
If you want to blame someone, try the board members who are
so afraid of even frivolous lawsuits that they produce idiotic
policies. Or, perhaps you could blame the voters who continually
elect such people to represent them.
Or you could just blame the public education system and the people
who support it, because it's gotten so politicized that education
necessarily takes a back seat to the administrative rules and regs
and other bureacratic bs.
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