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Bouyeri: "I would do exactly the same."
Mohammed Bouyeri, the 27-year-old Dutch-Moroccan national on trial for the murder of filmmaker Theo van Gogh, confessed in court Tuesday that he had acted out of religious motives, and that if given the opportunity, he would kill again.
"I take complete responsibility for my actions. I acted purely in the name of my religion," Bouyeri told the court. "I can assure you that one day, should I be set free, I would do exactly the same, exactly the same."
Van Gogh's mother was in court, and Bouyeri addressed her. "I have to admit I do not feel for you, I do not feel your pain, I cannot -- I don't know what it is like to lose a child," he said. He added that, "I cannot feel for you . . . because I believe you are an infidel."
Bouyeri shot Van Gogh 15 times, stabbed him, slit his throat, and affixed a note to his corpse threatening others. The prosecutor called for a life sentence, and asked the court to strip Bouyeri of the right to vote or run for office, "to literally place him outside of our democracy," according to wire-service reports.
Adam|7.12.05 @ 10:48PM|#
Do other prisoners ass-rape young men in the Netherlands like they do in the United States? For the sake of justice and for Van Gogh, I hope so.
The Lonewacko Blog|7.12.05 @ 11:04PM|#
Meanwhile, there are probably several thousands not yet out of
their democracy who think just like he does.
From " No
tolerance, please, we're Dutch": "One recent study suggested
that within six years at least three large Dutch cities will have
an effective Muslim majority."
From Sweden, see this or
this.
|7.12.05 @ 11:16PM|#
What the fucking fuck does this have to do with libertarianism? This is just a goddamn wire service article, minus even any commentary. Of course, we understand the point of every post from Reason's war wing: stay the course and kill 'em all. No need to even make arguments anymore.
|7.12.05 @ 11:19PM|#
Would someone,please, explain why we do not hear outraged cries of "hate crime!" from the politicaly correct Left?
|7.12.05 @ 11:52PM|#
"placing him outside of democracy."
Yeah, that'll show him. With a life sentence thrown in of
course.
If anyone deserves to be shot dead in his tracks, it's this
asshole. If I was van Gogh's mother I think I might do just
that.
|7.12.05 @ 11:57PM|#
"Of course, we understand the point of every post from Reason's
war wing: stay the course and kill 'em all. No need to even make
arguments anymore."
Um...how 'bout just killing murdering assholes? Is that better?
|7.13.05 @ 12:53AM|#
That man should not be killed. Why turn despicable slime like that into some sort of martyr and give that murder more press. He should be chained up with all our other criminals. Forget that. Solitary confinement. Lets make him live as long as possible with only his dillusions for company.
|7.13.05 @ 1:21AM|#
Solitary confinement? If I were a prisoner I'd much rather be
kept away from the other inmates. It's safer that way.
Maybe this guy's different. Either way, he should get the opposite
of whatever it is that he prefers.
Typical sociopath.
|7.13.05 @ 1:50AM|#
I've heard that solitary is brutal... but I guess it probably would depend on the person. And I can't imagine being a terrorist in prison would be a cakewalk.
|7.13.05 @ 2:31AM|#
I think there is the case for the death penalty here. Not
because the death penalty is bad and horrible and cruel. Not
because it is worse than being ass raped in prison, because it
isn't.
I think the death penalty is appropriate for someone lke this. Hey
whatever went bad in his childhood cannot be fixed now, lets just
remove him from society.
Torturing, ass raping, and all that crap won't fix anything.
|7.13.05 @ 2:42AM|#
thoreau,
Solitary confinement tends to turn prisoners insane. In the 19th
century there were prisons in Britain where the whole population
was in solitary confinement; their only access to other human
beings was a day for exercise over about an hour period and a
Sunday sermon where each prisoner was led into a tiny, confined box
so they could watch the minister but not see other prisoners. When
prisoners were transported about the prison they had to don hoods
so they couldn't see anyone. You can find out more on prison
history (or the lack thereof - long-term inprisonment is a fairly
modern institution with few corollaries in the ancient world) see
Oxford University's general history of the prison.
Anyway, if you want to do so someone a disfavor, solitary
confinement is a pretty good way to go about it. Its a wretched
existance.
|7.13.05 @ 4:03AM|#
Do other prisoners ass-rape young men in the Netherlands
like they do in the United States?
No doubt, where there's a will there's a way, but what makes you
think that this murdering insaniac wouldn't enjoy it?
|7.13.05 @ 4:03AM|#
Hakluyt,
What did they do with the prisoners after they went insane? Did
they keep them in prison forever? Or did they release criminals
turned insane to the public?
I don't remember that part in the movie "The Count of Monte
Cristo". Maybe I'll have to watch it again.
|7.13.05 @ 4:14AM|#
Thoreau,
I think you are mistaken in your attempt to tailor punishment to
what the criminal dislikes. Punishment is not an appropriate
function of the state. You are attempting to get retrubution and
exact pain from the offender to give you peace of mind.
The man who did this is the innevitable product of his environment.
What we should be thinking about is preventing him from being a
danger to another member of society, and if possible to lessen the
chances of the event happening again. Ass rape, solitary
confinement, and whatever torture you can think of will do no such
thing. Nor will they give you, the Danish society, or the family of
the victim, any peace of mind.
|7.13.05 @ 4:22AM|#
kwais,
That's a good question. I really can't remember. Britain did have
insane asylums by that time though and they might have been put in
there. Anyway, I'd have to dig out some of my books 19th century
British prisons and they're all packed for our move. I do know one
of the reasons why the British stopped administrating prisons this
was due to the problems associated with solitary confinement.
Anyway, the 18th and 19th centuries was full of novel experiments
in penology. My favorite is the use of the treadmill (often hooked
up to some machine to grind grain or what have you); they were also
used in places like post-emancipatory Jamaica to punish freedmen
who didn't want to work on the plantations (though there were
actual legal charges filed against them too - the point was to
discpline them into working - they didn't mind working, they just
didn't want to work in fields where they had been slaves for low
wages); people now pay to exercise on somewhat similar devices. But
I digress.
Nice little article on prison treadmills:
http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi374.htm
|7.13.05 @ 4:26AM|#
And by "favorite," I don't mean to say that I approve of it. Treadmills were barbaric devices.
Jadagul|7.13.05 @ 5:39AM|#
Of course they are, Hakluyt; ask any couch potato and he'll tell you the same ;)
|7.13.05 @ 5:44AM|#
Correction:
...they just didn't want to work in fields where they had been
slaves, especially if their compensation only entailed low
wages...
joe schmoe|7.13.05 @ 6:30AM|#
Another sick fucking murder being committed in the name of
Islam.
What the fuck is wrong with these people?
|7.13.05 @ 6:35AM|#
The bottom line is that he has said that infidels deserve death. Just more standard teaching from the religion of peace that he learned very well.
Jeff|7.13.05 @ 8:41AM|#
They have to strip him of his right to run for office?
And how, exactly, would that ad campaign be run?
|7.13.05 @ 8:53AM|#
kwais-
I see your point.
Hakluyt-
Maybe solitary confinement would drive me insane, but I'd rather
chance that than rape. Cuz I'm pretty sure that being raped and
beaten would be bad for my mental health as well.
|7.13.05 @ 9:21AM|#
thoreau,
Well, in the U.S. I believe the maximum allowable period of
solitary confinement is a month. Anyway, I suspect this guy will be
in a maximum security prison with little to no contact with any of
his prisonmates. You don't want him becoming an advocate in your
prison system with any ability to sway, convert, etc.
|7.13.05 @ 9:33AM|#
I'm not sure how ackowledging that murdering zealots are evil constitutes endorsement of the "war party's" agenda.
|7.13.05 @ 9:43AM|#
In the 19th century there were prisons in Britain where the
whole population was in solitary confinement;...
Such a prison was established for a small number of prisoners at
Port Arthur, the notorious penal coliny in Van Dieman's Land
(Tasmania). It was called the Model Prison, and at the time it was
considered the acme of progressive and enlightened prison
reform.
|7.13.05 @ 9:48AM|#
Adam
If my reading of various news stories around the world is accurate,
prisoners everywhere are remarkably similar. Most likely if this
guy is kept with the general population he will be killed by
members of one racist gang or another.
I also understand that prisons in most of Europe are even more
unpleasant than those in the US.
|7.13.05 @ 9:50AM|#
On another note, why is the murderer's crime worse because he's
honest about why he did it and honest about why he'd do it
again?
To me, this beats the ridiculous theater of American trials where
the convicted pretends to be sorry in hopes of getting a lessor
sentance.
|7.13.05 @ 10:08AM|#
I've seen stats listing the foreign population in Dutch jails around 50% (some anti-immigrant pols having been touting 90%, and the rejoinder is generally that the Central Statistics Office has it around 50%). I can't read Dutch or find an English language site to confirm, but it seems fair to say it is high. Given the majority of the immigrant population is Muslim, I would guess it not very likely that Bouyeri would be killed or raped in prison. More likely is that he would be protected and would have a rather receptive audience for his message.
|7.13.05 @ 10:18AM|#
Hakluyt
I recall a few years ago a report on the Beeb about prisons in
Britain. Since so many of them were over a hundred years old and
had not been modernized they were hellholes. The authorities were
having to face up to taking action. I haven't heard since if any
improvements have been made.
|7.13.05 @ 10:23AM|#
As far as tailoring punishments to achieve maximum unpleasantness for the incarcerated, or making prison as an ugly a place as possible, there is always the argument for crime deterrence. (The problem with that argument is, of course, few people commit crimes believing that they will be caught, and in the case of Bouyeri, the idea of negative earthly consequence probably doesn't work for those with his particular brand of mental defect.)
|7.13.05 @ 10:27AM|#
I predict this asshole will ally with Kareem Said in prison, and after months of complicated machinations against the Aryans and Irish groups, he will end up being beaten to death in solitary after trying to shank the block administrator.
|7.13.05 @ 10:40AM|#
Dr T,
I am guessing that Myob.myob is not your real email address. I was
going to email you to ask you a question. How come you don't have
your real address on this thing? (I mean besides trying to avoid
annoying questions)
|7.13.05 @ 10:43AM|#
"They have to strip him of his right to run for office?
And how, exactly, would that ad campaign be run?"
Awesome Jeff.
|7.13.05 @ 11:47AM|#
explain why we do not hear outraged cries of "hate crime!"
from the politicaly correct Left?
Because the left is not yet aware that white people can be victims
of hate crimes.
he's honest about why he did it and honest about why he'd do it
again?
Bouyeri killed van Gogh for an invisible man in the sky. To him,
there is a higher law, so he feels no obligation towards the Dutch
system. He and those like him are irrelevant atavists, and you
would be doing society a great service by killing them where they
stand.
|7.13.05 @ 1:00PM|#
People say the same thing about atheists, rst.
Actually, a whole lot more of them say it. If that is actually your
belief, I don't see any difference between you and Bouyeri, except
that he acts and you type.
|7.13.05 @ 1:48PM|#
This murderer achieved very little by his crime, Dutch society
will go its way regardless.
...He has presumably made Islam even more unappealing to
potential converts.
I like the idea of him watching the world spin its way through the
universe from his cell, year after year. I like the idea that, over
time, he'll see how insignificant his sacrifice was. What greater
revenge can we take on a self-appointed, wannabe martyr than to
show him that he sacrificed his life for nothing?
|7.13.05 @ 2:23PM|#
This pigfucker is the perfect argument for capital punishment, on the purely practical grounds that he has to be removed from society. Life in prison isn't enough -- even the other prisoners shouldn't have to deal with this worthless piss-stain of a human being.
gaius marius|7.13.05 @ 3:46PM|#
for all the haranguing here, i see little enough difference
between men of this stripe on the side of islamic culture and the
men of the same stripe on the western side. the white house hasn't
hesitated to void all treaties and obligations, ignore any
institution or law that sits, in their judgment, in the path of
manifesting their moral rectitude. how many have we killed and
imprisoned to bring ironic "freedom" to the world via our
ideological wars? how much chaos have we wrought for
"security"?
i don't see our ironic pathos as being much different than this
murderer's. i would agree with mr thoreau -- it's utterly
sociopathic. but haven't you heard? sociopathy is the new Great
Unifying Cause.
|7.13.05 @ 5:12PM|#
I don't what the fuck an "ironic pathos" is, but it must not have anything to do with killing a man in the street because you don't like his movies, and basically spitting in his mother's face at the trial. Because if it does, then I guess our "ironic pathos" isn't so similar at all.
|7.13.05 @ 6:07PM|#
"...for all the haranguing here, i see little enough
difference between men of this stripe on the side of islamic
culture and the men of the same stripe on the western
side."
I see at least a couple of big differences. We don't target
civilians specifically, although there are wrong-headed loud mouths
among us who would have us do so. ...and we express remorse.
|7.13.05 @ 7:39PM|#
rst: I'll expand on joe's comment. God is big enough to go by
many names; Jesus, Allah, no-god, government, liberty, the
comprehensive city plan, etc. The intellectualized structure you
use to describe your god is far less important to me than how you
act in company of your fellow humans.
I kind of like the prosecutor's idea of placing a non-cooperative
person outside of the society. We may not be able to "judge" him,
which might create arguments about who owns the true god, but we
can tell him to go away.
That seems to lead toward people of like ideals grouping together.
Bouyeri gets to go to Jihadistan and scratch screeds onto
goatskins, or something. Until someone earns "trusted person"
status, they don't get to stand on my ground.
|7.13.05 @ 7:52PM|#
If that is actually your belief, I don't see any difference
between you and Bouyeri, except that he acts and you
type.
We all only type, joe, this being the internet and all. And the
difference between myself and Bouyeri is that Bouyeri killed out of
pride. He called it God, and considers it duty, but it was in fact
nothing more than pride.
I would kill to protect my own from those who kill out of nothing
more than pride, were the circumstances to require such action.
|7.14.05 @ 3:32AM|#
joe
When was the last time you heard of an atheist murdering or even
killing in the name of atheism per se? True, the communists were
atheists and they killed lots of people, but I doubt that stamping
out theists or theism was their main objective.
|7.14.05 @ 12:42PM|#
jw, in many cases, protecting decent Christian people, making the world safe for international trade, and securing a source of oil are the direct objectives of those who call for the killing of Muslims, just as the establishment of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat and the elimination of bourgeois morality were the direct objectives of those who killed Christians.
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