LAPD Had "No Idea" Who They Were Shooting At In Dorner Pursuit, Says Victims' Attorney

"It's 100 percent clear that they had no idea who was in that vehicle and just lit it up," says attorney Christopher Driscoll.

Driscoll is representing Maggie Carranza, 47, and her mother, 71-year-old Emma Hernandez, the two women who were shot on Thursday, Feb. 7 in Torrance, CA by LAPD officers. The officers were on the hunt for Christopher Dorner, and claim to have mistaken Carranza and Hernandez's truck for Dorner's.

"They had a description of the suspect, they had a description of the suspect's vehicle. The two women obviously do not match that description in any way," Driscoll says. 

ReasonTV's Tracy Oppenheimer sat down with Driscoll to discuss how this tragedy could have happened.

"When an officer is injured, or goes down, or is threatened, the team mentality really steps up," Driscoll says, "you have that concern that individual citizens' rights are going to get trampeled when the officers are attempting to get justice for their brothers.

About 6 minutes.

Produced by Tracy Oppenheimer; shot by Zach Weissmueller.

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  • Matrix||

    Officer safety! It trumps all other concerns and laws. Just as long as no officers were hurt, then they acted appropriately.

    /PoliceOne dumbfuckery

  • Mensan||

    Your three sentences are more coverage than this panicked attempted murder has actually received over at PorcineOne.

  • Sandra M. Jones||

    my co-worker's half-sister makes $72/hr on the computer. She has been without a job for five months but last month her pay was $17316 just working on the computer for a few hours. Go to this web site and read more... http://www.ace60.com

  • Sevo||

    If I'm a black male anywhere around LA, I'm staying inside and out of sight. Those cops are CRAZY.

  • Matrix||

    well, those ladies were hispanic. So apparently no one is safe

  • BarryD||

    What about a 71 year old, small Hispanic woman making an honest buck with your small Hispanic daughter, delivering papers with your pickup, which BTW wasn't the same model or color as the suspect's truck?

    Would you figure you'd be mistaken for a young 270 lb. African-American man and sprayed with bullets without warning?

    Shit, the only despicable thing these pigs DIDN'T do, was racial profiling.

  • Ted S.||

    Would you figure you'd be mistaken for a young 270 lb. African-American man and sprayed with bullets without warning?

    Well, there is an obesity "epidemic" in this country.

  • CE||

    Hey, if you don't want to be shot at by the police, try leaving your lights on when you pull up to people's houses at 4:30 AM to make deliveries!

  • JohnD||

    Well Servo, I don't blame you. Those fools that shot at the 2 women should be fired and brought up on charges of attempted murder. There is no excuse for that kind of behavior.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    It really is the opposite of heroic behavior. To do as much as possible to make yourself better armed than "civilians" and then to open fire on those civilians, solely to ensure your own safety above all other consideration.

  • buybuydandavis||

    That's the trick these days.

    Cops use overwhelming force to protect themselves, with little regard to the damage or terror they inflict. Procedures are all about keeping cops safe, not citizens.

    We're supposed to respect them for "risking their lives" to protect us. How should we feel about them when they risk our lives to protect themselves?

  • CE||

    It's the same trick the state has always used -- the sole justification for the state is to protect the citizens, but the state really uses the citizens (via the military draft) to protect itself.

  • fresno dan||

    perfectly said.

    I would answer the question (who did the cops think they were shooting at) with: People....or dogs...they really shoot the dogs a remarkable number of times.

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    "Produced by Tracy Oppenheimer; shot by Zach Weissmueller"

    Is Zach related to the Tarzan guy, and is Tracy related to either the physicist or the diamond people? Inquiring minds want to butt in.

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    Tracy has produced yet another fine piece of journalism. Enjoy her while you can Reasonoids, because she won't be around for long. She's got the looks, the brains, and the journalistic chops needed to be successful on a national scale. She'll get snapped up by Bloomberg or CNBC soon.

  • Xenocles||

    Zach is the person who shot Tracy.

  • ||

    This is the story that keeps on giving:

    1. Whistle blower cop turns in cops for brutality.
    2. Whistle blower cop gets fired for it.
    3. Whistle blower cop goes crazy and starts shooting cops.
    4. LAPD goes on nation-wide manhunt and look like fools.
    5. Cops search houses out of their jurisdiction.
    6. Cops shoot first and ask questions later, wounding two Asian ladies in a pick-up NOT matching the description of the whistle blower cop.
    7. Whistle blower cop gets away from the Keystone cops (literally).
    8. Prognosis... Whistle blower cop shoots more cops OR cops shoot Whistle blower cop.
    9. Regardless... cops look stupid(er).

    FdA...enjoying the show.

  • Cdr Lytton||

    Don't bogart the popcorn!

  • ||

    6. Guess they were Hispanic. CNN was reporting Asian.

  • ThomasD||

    Just a guess but Spanish surnames are rather common among those of Filipino descent.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    ASIAN HISPANIC

  • Otis B. Driftwood||

    +1 Skittle

  • yonemoto||

    naw, asian hispanics wind up like being dictators of their adoptive countries.

  • BarryD||

    Ethnically, they were simply from Los Angeles. What they weren't, is anyone resembling he suspect. Thir truck was apparently the wrong color and model, too. The cops sprayed two random people with bullets, plain and simple.

  • Not an Economist||

    I'm not so sure about the whistle blower part. He didn't come forward until after he got a bad evaluation and none of the complaintent stories match. There were also non-police witnesses who testified no brutality occured (although they were employees of the location where the incident occurred).

  • yonemoto||

    Well he claimed that the training officer confessed later. I'm not sure that is so easily made up. He also supposedly did exactly the right thing, which was to go step by step on the chain of command.

    Also, he has a completely unblemished record with the USN. A person who pulls shit like that with the LAPD would probably not do so well for so long in the military.

  • CE||

    Is waiting to file a report evidence that no wrongdoing occurred? Maybe he was planning to keep his mouth shut, but then got a bad evaluation and said, F that.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    I'm not ready to accept his status as "whistleblower" quite yet, as the veracity of his claims has not been established. Right now he's just a murderer.

    Note: I'm not defending the LAPD or denying that there are bad cops (and lots of them). Just blowing the whistle on Reasonoids lionizing yet another criminal because it suits their ideology.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Who the hell is lionizing him? Claiming that our ideology is akin to a pro-gun control, masturbating to MSNBC anchors maniac is "Somalia 'n Roadz" level stupidity.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    With a bit of research, ie looking at the comment I was responding to, you would have seen FDA is calling him a "whistleblower". I know that's a lot to ask of a humanities professor, maybe I should lower my standards. ;-)

    I never said his ideology was yours, just that praising an anti-cop person is easy for those with your ideology.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    I know that's a lot to ask of a humanities professor, maybe I should lower my standards. ;-)

    Social sciences, actually. Humanities was just my undergrad degree.

    Anyway, my ideology, at least, is not "anti-cop" as much as it is "don't murder people" be they cop or X-Cop.

  • BarryD||

    "Don't murder people" That kind of radical mentality is what's wrong with society today.

  • Otisjay||

    Well, their goes my plans this afternoon.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    And this is the same FDA who was claiming, in the days after Newtown, that we must lay all blame for shootings on the shooter and no one and nothing else. Yet now it's the LAPD's fault for driving this guy crazy.

  • ||

    I'm fairly certain I never chose either side in this, nor did I give ANY praise to the man who murdered people. NOR did blame anyone's actions on another. I simply said I was enjoying watching idiot cops go out of their way to prove what I've always suspected. They put themselves above average citizens and the law...

    So fuck off and die in a fire.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    1. Whistle blower cop turns in cops for brutality.
    2. Whistle blower cop gets fired for it.
    3. Whistle blower cop goes crazy and starts shooting cops.

    You called this murderer a whistle blower and papered over the fact that he killed two non-cops as well as the one cop. Apparently cops are not considered worthy of a right to life on Reason any more, but at least the two "civilian" deaths should give you pause.

  • ||

    I repeat.

    I NEVER gave any praise to either side.

    Are you implying the words "whistle blower" has some sort of positive connotation? It does not. He was reported to have turned in other cops for brutality. That makes him a whistle blower. I never speculated or implied any legitimacy to his or anyone else's claims.

    Would it make Tulpy happier had I said "alleged" whistle blower?

    As far as I'm concerned, everything in this story is alleged.

    Both the LAPD and the shooter appear to be idiots. Which was my point. It's going to turn out bad for the idiot cops either way.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Are you implying the words "whistle blower" has some sort of positive connotation? It does not.

    Yes, it does.

  • ||

    Fuck off and die in a fire...twice.

    Idiot.

  • Virginian||

    Eh, whistle blower does have a positive connotation. As opposed to the more neutral "source" or "informant", or the harshly negative "snitch" or "rat".

    I do think saying FDA was praising this guy is nuts. He was clearly more interested in the way the LAPD has conducted themselves.

  • Virginian||

    Your average newspaper comments sections has plenty of idiots heaping shit on whistle blowers whenever one pops up.

    Idiots is exactly the right word for them. They still think they're in grade school, and if they raise their hand and report an infraction then in swoops the grownups to make it all better. Hell, reporting major issues up the chain, not ethical or criminal stuff, but just "Hey, we need to go back and change this or else the product will be all fucked up" type memos can get you blamed for it. To say nothing of reporting major ethical or legal trouble up the chain, and if that fails, to the outside world. Much better to keep your head down, maybe file a CYA memo somewhere.

  • H. Reardon||

    I have a folders of emails, many of which are emails written to myself, titled 'CYA'.

  • ||

    Can you be lying and still be a whistle blower?

    Of course you can. Just because you accuse somebody of something doesn't mean the accusation is true.

  • rabid penguin||

    While whistleblowing is often glamorized as heroic and noble, it is often as much self-preservation as it is good intentions. Take Sherron Watkins' "whistle blowing" on Enron. Her internal memo was basically a statement of: "We might attract scrutiny because of these shady looking finances, so we should meet and discuss how to present them better."

  • robc||

    No it doesnt.

    Admittedly, its more positive than snitch.

    But I would say whistleblower is neutralish while snitch is perjorative.

  • robc||

    I see Virginian beat me to it, but I think whistleblower is neutral too, but YMMV.

  • Sheriff of Fistingham||

    And meanwhile, at the other FDA...........

  • yonemoto||

    yep. I understand what he's doing, but I find the deaths of the two civilians a bit indefensible (although we don't know 100% for sure if he killed them - we may never).

    I wouldn't let him stay in my house, but if i saw him in the street, I wouldn't turn him in. I might even buy him a burger.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Wow. Just wow. This comment is exhibit A in what's wrong with you guys' attitude on this.

    We're totally outraged about cops wounding two innocent people, but you'd buy a burger for a double murderer (assuming we don't count cops as people) and let him go free, all because he wrote something that criticized cops.

  • Virginian||

    Tulpa, it's because we're tired. We're tired of cops getting the benefit of the doubt every time they drop the hammer on someone. Thousands of Americans die under a cops fists or under a cops baton, or shot to death by a cop, and every single fucking time they are exonerated, or allowed to plead to lesser charges. I'm not talking about dark alley shoots where there are legitimate "furtive movements to the waistline". I'm talking about old women being shot to death by cops because they got the wrong house. I'm talking about six fucking pigs beating a man to death on the street because they could.

    Read the Declaration of Independence. How many more decades of brutality, routine violations of civil rights, no knock raids, increasingly militarized police, compliant media, vicious prosecutors, and foolish judges do you think people will tolerate? It makes me furious, and I don't even get victimized by them. How does some black kid who stays away from drugs, stays away from the gangs, works hard in school to get out of the ghetto feel when the NYPD shoves him up against the wall while hes walking home from the job he works to save up some money for tuition?

    I'm honestly just surprised there aren't people in LA joining him.

  • fresno dan||

    I agree 100% - I used to be pro cop, law and order, until reality slapped me silly. Southern CA just had the case were a homeless mentally ill man was beaten to death by cops, with about a dozen cops looking on and failing to do anything. Afterwards, nothing but lying. If there hadn't been videotape, there would not have been an iota of justice.
    Oh, and some interesting links from this article
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/.....ary-Appeal

  • VG Zaytsev||

    Did he confess to killing the people in Irvine, or has any conclusive evidence been released linking him to those murders?

    And for that matter, is there any evidence that he killed the cop in Riverside?

  • ||

    Read his manifest. Yes, he wanted to kill his former attorney's children for messing up his life.

  • yonemoto||

    That's right, Tulpa. We're outraged about cops wounding two innocent people. The cops, however, are not innocent.

    Look, I considered joining the navy as an MD, and I knew doing so that I would not be innocent until decommissioned, that my life was dispensible, and that moral penalty for killing me is lower than that of any civilian.

  • Proprietist||

    I agree with you Tulpa. Anyone who kills innocent people intentionally is a murderer and should be considered as such. It would be one thing if he was a vigilante hunting down cops that won't ever be brought to justice for some heinous act. It's a whole other thing to shoot an attorney's innocent family members in cold blood.

  • Killazontherun||

    Yeah, I don't see buying this guy jack. If he pounded at my door in an agitated state, he'd be met by bullets. I'm simply not going to trust my life with his state of mind. Most likely, he did kill two non-cops (cops are civilians too), and that makes him a piece of shit in my book.

    However, informing if I saw him near by? Probably would on the balance of things, but I know it would be a huge risk. The manhunt becomes centered around my neighborhood and the stormtroopers come blaring in taking inventory of my shit, my gun collection, my robotic parts, other things that they have no understanding of and therefore would assume to be illegal. The fourth and fifth amendments don't mean shit these days, and a warrant would not even apply. Now, I've thought about it, no I would not report him if he showed up in my neighborhood. Too big of a risk to put my life in the hands of 'roid ragers.

  • Killazontherun||

    And I know, there are plenty of people who take supplements and roids who handle those products without emotional issues. I know a few. It is safe to assume, however, that on balance, cops are not these kind of people.

  • yonemoto||

    If you read his manifesto, he's willing to give cops a pass on reporting him, so it's almost certain that he would give civilians a pass on reporting him.

  • yonemoto||

    sorry, I misread you statement.

  • Paul.||

    Maybe he's Orenthal, the Whistleblowing murderer...

  • Xenocles||

    3. Whistle blower cop goes crazy and starts shooting cops. murders the daughter of his union rep and her fiance.

    This guy can burn as far as I'm concerned, though some few elements of the situation have certain endearing qualities.

  • JohnD||

    You pretty much summed it up, Francisco

  • The Late P Brooks||

    Again:

    Every one of you dumb motherfuckers who stick up for poor little dunphy should go read the "Spree Killer Manifesto" thread.

    Fuck him, and fuck you.

  • ||

    I have come to the conclusion that dumbfy is no cop at all, just a wannabe.

    His unabashed, over-the-top fellating of himself and cops in general is creepy and detestable.

    His defense of various police shootings borders on the insane.

    He should stick around though, if for no other reason than to give an opposing ( but wrong ) POV. It gives us something to push against.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    His defense of various police shootings borders on the insane.

    It's so crazy that I think he's gotta be a cop.

  • Killazontherun||

    He gets caught saying impossible shit all the time about the profession. Sugarfree massacred him, the guy going under the name Harvard the other night wiped him on the mat on the inconsistencies in his narrative. My favorite example is how dunphy claimed to be doing traffic in the middle of the street with Rage Against the Machine blaring on his headphone set. He is not a cop though crazy and creepy he may very well be.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    I think he was going overboard in apologetics for the cops who shot these innocent people not being immediately jailed and charged. But he did say they should be prosecuted.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    you have that concern that individual citizens' rights are going to get trampeled when the officers are attempting to get justice for their brothers.

    Gang violence is no respecter of innocent bystanders.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    4. LAPD goes on nation-wide manhunt
    in what appears to be a frantic attempt to silence him permanently.

  • ||

    He needs to get a bus and cover it with steel plating. Then he and some blond chick can drive it through a hail of gunfire onto the steps of the LA court house.

  • ||

    Speaking of violence and buses.

  • Ted S.||

    Speaking of violence and buses.

  • ||

    Hey, back in the day Sondra Locke was a real hottie. I would drive her through a hail of bullets any day.

  • ||

    She always had that look of crazy in her eye. Bang her, but don't let her follow you home.

  • ||

    That wont help, she will just sue me.

    Never mind, she can drive herself. Actresses are crazy.

  • ||

    I do seem to recall Tom Turner telling me something about a daughter who was a little...odd.

  • ||

    I guess we will have to be content with her nude scenes...and endeavor to persevere.

  • ||

    There is iron in your words of life, Lone Watie.

  • Otisjay||

    My dad always told me. "boy, Don't stick you dick in crazy"

  • Proprietist||

    You might end up becoming Michael Douglas in Fatal Attraction.

  • Cdr Lytton||

    And when I'm finished, bring the yellow tape
    To tape off the scene of the slaughter
    ...
    punk police are afraid of me
    A young nigga on a warpath
    And when I'm finished, it's gonna be a bloodbath
    Of cops, dyin in LA
    ...
    They put up my picture with silence
    Cuz my identity by itself causes violence
    ...
    And there's no cue, yo, so I can hear a
    Dumb muthafucka with a gun
    And if I'm rollin off the 8, he'll be tha one
    That I take out, and then get away
    And while I'm drivin off laughin

  • VG Zaytsev||

    "LAPD Had "No Idea" Who They Were Shooting At In Dorner Pursuit, Says Victims' Attorney" is the latest from Reason TV.

    I certainly hope so.

    What's the alternative, that they were hunting elderly women.

  • ThomasD||

    Thank God their weapon training is as poor as everything else. Over two dozen shots at stationary targets and both survived.

  • An0nB0t||

    Clearly Glock's standard magazines aren't nearly large enough.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    She'll get snapped up by Bloomberg or CNBC soon.

    Will it be murder, or suicide?

  • Jordan||

    So not only did they riddle an entirely different type of truck containing 2 people of an entirely different race, gender, and build with 40+ shots and only hit their targets twice (think God they fucking suck), they also hit nearby cars and houses. And the officers involved will get a slap on the wrist, if that. Remember these are the only people who can be trusted with assault rifles!

  • Jordan||

    think = thank

  • VG Zaytsev||

    That incident just proves that assault weapons are too dangerous for civilians

    /brain dead proglodyte

  • juris imprudent||

    Only cops have the proper training and brain-conditioning to safely handle firearms.

    /double-brain-dead proggie

  • ||

    I just saw a bit on fox about this story. No mention whatsoever of these shootings. They portrayed the cops as heroes facing a tough situation but dealing with it competently. Disgusting.

  • ||

    I'm sure Tulpa will be along soon to agree.

  • ||

    Wait, it was food truck?

  • JW||

    Wait, it was food truck?

    Now he has to go clean himself off again.

  • Hyperion||

    And then he will say that the dirty brown furen women had to be doing something to deserve being shot at. Dirty fureners can't be trusted, they are all poor, and they pee in their own water.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    That's why I was arguing that the cops should be immediately jailed and prosecuted in the other thread.

    Some of you fucksticks were even involved in that thread and you still defame me. Typical.

  • ||

    Wow, Tulpa. That's almost libertarian of you.

    You can imagine our surprise.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    I'm in agreement with the rest of you on 90% of the police abuse cases. The remainder are the ones where you guys go off the derp end and think that anyone stopped by a police officer doing an investigation has the right to bludgeon him with liquor bottles, for example.

    I've gotten into it with dunphy over the double standard many times. Your 0-1 thinking leads you to some pretty stupid conclusions about people and life in general.

  • ||

    You would be hard pressed to find me commenting negatively on the 10% of cases you are referring to. I personally believe certain people go too far here accusing cops. It is as if the default is to accuse. I do not hold with that. I prefer to make my decision based upon the available facts. To do otherwise is unlibertarian.

  • ΘJΘʃ de águila||

    News outlets are waiting for cues from their Govt masters on how to spin this thing --

    "Left-wing goose-stepping nutjob Fascist ex-police ex-military whistle-blowing minority discrimination-victim seeking retribution goes on a whack-job out-of-control killer rampage for racial justice."

  • juris imprudent||

    That's what you get for tuning into Fox.

  • World's Oldest Fraggle||

    "you have that concern that individual citizens' rights are going to get trampeled when the officers are attempting to get justice for their brothers."

    Driscoll's wrong about one thing. This wasn't an attempt to get justice. There was no attempt to apprehend Dorner; this was a straight-up attempted execution.

    Even if it had been Dorner in that truck, it still would have been attempted murder.

  • ΘJΘʃ de águila||

    Yes.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Even if it had been Dorner in that truck, it still would have been attempted murder.

    I'm not sure about that. Dorner has quite publicly made threats on the life of high-ranking police and police in general, has the firearms expertise to follow through on those threats with little warning, has stated that he does not care about dying, and has already killed three people including one cop.

    If it were known to be Dorner approaching the home of one of his targets, I would consider that to be a good shoot. Problem is, it obviously wasn't, and the reasons for thinking it was were so flimsy as to make these cops a greater danger to public safety than Dorner is.

  • Chris Mallory||

    Tough, until a government employee actually has a shot fired at him, he should not even touch his weapon.

  • ||

    That's going too far. The standard in the military is positive ID (I can tell what I'm looking/shooting at) AND a threat (its trying to kill me or is in a category where being armed or even existing [like uniformed military] means it's always ok to kill it. If cops followed the same rule I wouldn't have a problem with one unholstering his weapon and pointing it at the ground, although the safety should stay on.

  • Chris Mallory||

    And the military is supposed to be on a battlefield engaging hostile forces. If government employees are going to roam the streets with honest citizens, then they need to be severely restricted. I would even go so far as stripping most basic human rights from government employees. No weapons, no voting, no right to assemble. If they want the rights of a citizen, then they can quit living off the citizens.

  • JohnD||

    I'm calling BS on that one Chris. That's a good way to get killed.

  • JohnD||

    No Fraggle, not here in Georgia. He is a fugitive from justice, armed and dangerous and wanted for murder. He would be shot down like a dog and deservedly so. No cop should risk his life to try to capture this crazy fool.

  • ||

    Hey, look on the bright side. Since the guy was black, left-leaning, and a cop, the media isn't going to use this to talk about gun control. It was obviously fueled by racism.

  • ΘJΘʃ de águila||

    The poor guy was just bucking for a job with the Obama SS Assassination Squad.

  • JohnD||

    PS, sad but true.

  • Lyle||

    Yep, there are some incompetent police officers out there.

    Give these ladies a pile of your cash taxpayers of whatever city this took place in.

  • ΘJΘʃ de águila||

    "They were reaching in their waistbands for what we thought were Assault Rifles. We felt our lives were in danger so our service weapons discharged and suspects were shot in the back."

    "Only later was it discovered that they were newspaper-ladies. Committing the crime of being Hispanic, we also thought they could have been with the Mexican drug cartels delivering cocaine, which further justifies our actions. Anyway, fuck them."

    "We are positive that the Police-staffed "Civilian" Review Board will find all of our actions in compliance with departmental procedures and practices."

  • fresno dan||

    Oh, I'm thinking they will be suspended for two days without pay.

    At a minimum, they should be fired. I have no hope that the police union backed prosecutors will charge them with any number of violations of law.

  • Teaching Student||

    There is no "right" side to this story. Don't turn Dorner into a hero, because he is not. Don't turn LAPD into heroes, they are not. Dorner's "Manifesto" is nothing more than the rantings of a lunatic. I think Driscoll hit it perfectly at the end discussing the "Triple Irony."

    Dorner is nothing more than someone willing to do whatever he feels it takes to get what he's "entitled to."

  • JW||

    You're not fooling us, Domer.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    Dorner's "Manifesto" is nothing more than the rantings of a lunatic.

    Tow that lion.

  • ||

    Brooksie has also long held an ineffable attraction to Margaret Cho.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Oh m'lord. It's clear that H+R is going on one of those "We want to believe" benders again.

  • JeremyR||

    And yet, Obama is using the same logic in all his drone strikes.

    Ie, these are relatives of a person who I feel has wronged me, so it's okay for me to kill them

  • Brubaker||

    Dorner obviously was not in the targeted vehicle. Since neither the vehicle nor its occupants even vaguely resembled the description of Dorner and his vehicle, we're looking at a remarkable level of incompetence.

    It's far worse than that, though. Even if Dorner had been in the vehicle, police had absolutely no right to open fire, clearly attempting to execute the occupants. Obviously the unarmed occupants had not fired at police. It's remotely possible that they made some move that was misinterpreted by police, but even then the response--if it was a response--would have been grossly disproportionate.

    These police officers probably will receive slaps on their hands and be put back on the street. They ought to be jailed.

  • ||

    I cant find what the cops have to say about this other than the 'mistaken identity' excuse. Do I really have to point out just how much that doesnt hold water?

  • ||

    And if it actually had been the guy, how did these highly trained professionals shoot 40+ rounds, hitting other cars and houses, apparently, and not even hit the driver?

  • Cdr Lytton||

    It looked like Dorner was more accurate when he shot up the LAPD cruiser in Riverside.

    Anyone else surprised that Dorner turns out to be a O-3 after being described just as a "Navy reservist"? Makes a little more sense how getting fired ruined his life. Fired for lying/dishonesty = loss of security clearance = walking papers?

  • Hyperion||

    I'm sure they don't have anything to say. They will 'investigate' themselves, and find that they followed all the correct procedures. Nothing to see here, move along.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    This being a case of mistaken identity does hold water... it's just not an excuse. I can totally believe that they were ready to riddle with bullets any blue pickup truck that was doing anything the slightest bit suspicious, in this case stopping and slowing down repeatedly. Of course, they shouldn't be doing that, and if any non-cop did this they would be prosecuted for attempted murder.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    How do you know they weren't born here?

  • Hyperion||

    I guess you need for Tulpa to come here and explain to you about dirty fureners and immigration. He has all the facts.

  • Hyperion||

    You mean like in most of Americas inner cities?

  • Heroic Mulatto||

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Ah, yes, the fallacy of composition. One anecdote about 3 Ethiopians somehow allows us to infer that the entire culture of Ethiopia is based on fraud and thievery.

    What's next? Based on your forum name, I'm guessing blood libel.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    What makes you think I'm limiting the inference to Ethiopia?

    Unwarranted charity toward you on my part.

  • Hyperion||

    What makes you think I'm limiting the inference to Ethiopia?

    Are you Tulpas sister?

  • Hyperion||

    That's nothing. All people living in Latin America, are poor, and pee in their own drinking water. If not for the generosity of Murika, they wouldn't even that that water to pee in!

  • JW||

    All people living in Latin America, are poor, and pee in their own drinking water.

    Tulpy-poo should know about this, as someone who pisses in his own corn flakes, every morning.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Yep. Those affluent blancos y blancas.

    Or is this the part where you blame the JOOZ?

  • ||

    HM, you are better than this. C'mon dude you are being trolled.

    I am suspicious that one of the regulars here regularly trolls us under various names.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

  • Fatty Bolger||

    You're not a regular, but you make a comment about John's spelling disorder? Pull the other one.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Tell me again that Brazil has a better economy than the US. I'd take the worst neighborhood in inner city Detroit over the shanty towns ringing Rio. How about you? Oh, wait, you've already made your decision. As have the ex-Brazilians who go through our ridiculously labyrinthine immigration system.

    And for those who weren't involved in the thread last night, I'll give context. I was not implying that Latin American people are inferior or stupid, just that their economies are underdeveloped. The "pee in the water" remark was about the water supply, not water a person is actually about to drink.

  • Hyperion||

    I forgive your ignorance, Tulpa. You might want to let it go before you make a bigger ass out of yourself. But, really, I can't stop you.

  • Peter Bleswick||

    I'm still pretty sure this is Sarah Palin's fault.

  • Peyton32||

    as Eric implied I'm in shock that any one able to profit $4673 in 1 month on the computer. have you seen this website http://www.FLY38.COM

  • ||

    No, I havent seen it.

    Where is pedo-bot? There is something comforting about seeing his harmless little 'Wow!" posts in every thread. Plus there is the occasionally astounding level of AI where he appears to partly grasp the nature of the discussion at hand.

    This bot sucks.

  • ||

    Who the fuck is Eric?

  • ||

    Half a bee, philosophically, must ipso facto half not be.

  • flye||

    I'm Eric and so's my wife.

  • Sheriff of Fistingham||

    Try to keep up, man. He’s the dude who “allegedly able to profit $4673 in 1 month on the computer”....but I'm somewhat dubious.

  • Dopher||

    I didn't get why this wasn't mentioned when Geraldo was on Fox & Friends the other day. Just the three spree victims. Can't figure it out.

  • Vesparado||

    Haven't been so entertained since they chased down Roy "Mad Dog" Earle in the mountains ...

    Do think the State of California would vastly improve public safety if they restricted police to carrying a single bullet in their shirt pockets.

  • Fatty Bolger||

    Good for you. Where is it?

  • John||

    Fuck off Mary.

  • ||

    all indications are they screwed up big time. they let fear take over. you can't let fear take over. the streets are scary, but you attack them with confidence and caution, not fear.

  • John||

    Fuck you Dunphy. The streets are not a war zone. Give me a gun and a badge and I will go any place in this country. If you are sacred on the streets, you are a lunatic or a coward.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    I don't think dunphy is disagreeing with you on that.

  • John||

    the streets are scary,

    Does that not mean what it says?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Only fools have no fear.

    -- Lt. Worf

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    If you are sacred on the streets, you are a lunatic or a coward.

    RC'z law strikes again!

  • Otis B. Driftwood||

    Check out the comments from the story in the LA Times

    This one was particularly appalling:
    Drive a truck like a cop-killer, at night, tinted windows, and totally ignore and try to evade the police? This is not an outrage! This was an innocent mistake. It is a shame the women did not come to an immediate stop and freeze like any normal citizen should do!

    What. A. Fucking. Twat.

  • John||

    You not fooling anyone Mary. Get off your meds again?

  • John||

    Apparently so. You are so easy to spot. For someone who prides themselves on making up characters, you do a very bad job of hiding yourself. But your breed of insanity is pretty hard to hide and impossible to imitate.

  • Hyperion||

    Don't be too sure, John, there are lots of other people out there just as stupid as this person. Ever read the comments at Politico?

  • John||

    There is no end to stupid people. But there is a certain style of trolling that is distinctly Mary stack. You really can't miss it once you get a feel for it

  • John||

    No Mary I just feel sorry for you.

  • Sheriff of Fistingham||

    You gonna tell us all about agrarian city states, or white chimp/shit flinger today?

  • Hyperion||

    Go away and lick some authoritah boot and get your fix. You will feel better.

  • Otis B. Driftwood||

    The regular douchey trolls on Reason are somewhat entertaining to engage; this one just fucking sucks. Reason deserves a higher caliber of troll...not the kind that you would find at Fox or Kos.

  • John||

    This one is a particularly loathsome one who shows up when she gets out of confinement or wherever she goes.

  • Otis B. Driftwood||

    What's your argument, Treply? I'm really interested in hearing your views on this shooting, because you're really, really intelligent and obviously have some keen insight. So show your cards you vapid cunt.

  • Otis B. Driftwood||

    Come on, pussy; take a position already.

  • Otis B. Driftwood||

    Then just come out and say that shit instead of acting like a bitch troll. Personally, I value the comments on these boards that are inconsistent with garden-variety libertarianism.

  • Hyperion||

    We still have derider. It doesn't get much stupider than that. Tony is a close 2nd, with Buttwipe the Libertarian dude, in 3rd.

  • John||

    I think shreek is the worst followed by Derider and then Tony. Tony is just dumb but he actually seems to be a human being.

  • Hyperion||

    Tony has said some of the stupidest things that I have ever heard a human being utter. He seems to start out half way reasonable sometimes and as a thread progresses, he descends into complete babblings non-sense. IMHO, derider is much worse than Tony and Shreek combined.

  • Hyperion||

    But I give the all time stupid H&R Troll award to Crayon.

  • John||

    Derider is the old Joe From Lowell. And he has always been really bad. Just a dishonest arrogant twit.

  • Hyperion||

    John, I just realized that you are right, it's Mary.

  • John||

    I can always tell when it is her. She has a certain voice. I can't quite explain how I can tell. But I can.

  • ||

    John, you do realize she's in love with you, right?

  • John||

    Francisco,

    That is a thought that is too horrible to contemplate. I prefer to think of her as a troll and hope she never shows up at my door with a kitchen knife.

  • ||

    When you show up her entire tone changes. She gets flirtatious and has this sort of dreamy posting quality.

    You two could be the next Sloopy/Banjos. ;-)

    On second thought, better just get another deadbolt and make sure you are unlisted.

  • John||

    She is also Cheradenine Zakalwe. Hopefully Reason will ban her and the infestation will end soon.

  • ||

    To come clean, I've read H&R comments semi seriously for a few months. I've posted a handful of comments as "Slithery D"; it's the only other handle I've ever used. I'm a 30s dude in the military who regards himself as an "aristo-libertarian" and has some minor empathy for the cosmos, while still enjoying the scorn heaped on them by the "straights" around here. I appreciate the weirdos outside the consensus (like John)almost as much as I do the (more skilled and funny) core group.

  • SugarFree||

    Working on it.

  • playa manhattan||

  • Ghetto Slovak Goatherder||

    Wtf?

  • Otis B. Driftwood||

    It doesn't get much stupider than that.

    It looks like it just did. This rape baby has set a new precedent.

  • Vesparado||

    "It is a shame the women did not come to an immediate stop and freeze like any normal citizen should do!"

    I've always felt a "freeze" could be misconstrued as the mental formulation of criminal intent. So, I throw myself down on the ground spread eagle and keep shouting "Sir, please don't hurt me! Please, sir, I'm begging you! Don't hurt me, please!"

  • Fatty Bolger||

    We've seen videos where the cops yell "freeze!" and "get on the ground!" at the same time, or other contradictory commands.

  • fresno dan||

    There was a case here in maryland where two FBI agents stopped a car, ordered the occupants out, with one yelling "freeze" the other "hand up" and one of the occupants got shot (in the neck I believe - luckily, he lived).
    No one fired, no one prosecuted. I think he got some small compensation from suing...

  • John||

    People have been court martialed, kicked out of the military and sent to jail for less egregious conduct than this. Our soldiers treat Afghans and Iraqi civilians in a war zone better than we expect our police to treat American citizens. It is disgraceful. And everyone knows that these guys won't be so much as disciplined let alone prosecuted for what amounts to depraved indifference.

  • John||

    It is a full Mary outbreak today.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    We need to buy her a blue pickup truck and give her a free trip to LA.

  • John||

    And give them an anonymous tip that the killer is coming back to town.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    And some shooting lessons to improve their accuracy!

  • Vesparado||

    Perhaps because the citizens in Afghanistan are better armed?

  • John||

    Touche. Or perhaps also because unlike the LAPD, the military is disciplined, trained and generally held accountable.

  • Vesparado||

    That's why 30rd magazines (or, better yet, full auto fire) are needed for self defense.

    Of course, you'd need to have a government which believed its reason for existence was to secure certain fundamental rights ... oh, wait a minute ... I mean ... oh, hell, never mind!

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Depraved indifference? You're going easy on them. Assault with a deadly weapon, reckless endangerment, at the very least. Possibly attempted murder.

  • Hyperion||

    Tulpa, they were just trying to do you a favor and rid Murika of some dirty brown fureners. You should thank them.

  • John||

    You are really angry aren't you Mary?

  • John||

    I knew it was you Mary. I can always tell. Go take your meds you poor sad person.

  • juris imprudent||

    ***snap***

  • The Late P Brooks||

    you guys go off the derp end and think that anyone stopped by a police officer doing an investigation has the right to bludgeon him with liquor bottles, for example.

    This made me laugh.

    Out loud.

  • Ghetto Slovak Goatherder||

    Me too.

  • buybuydandavis||

    "when the officers are attempting to get justice for their brothers"

    When the officers are engaged in reprisals to show everyone who is really in charge.

  • robc||

    This thread is funnier post ban.

  • Eduard van Haalen||

    It's more modernist.

  • XM||

    I've heard conflicting reports on whether the officers gave verbal commands to stop. One of the lawyers for the women says the police didn't say anything. Other sources say the car kept on moving despite verbal warnings.

    The lawyer "Clearly it wasn't Dorner inside the car". But if that was the case, they wouldn't have fired. They didn't realize the truck was blue and a different make from Dorner's car until after they fired.

    The police officers receive firearms training, but they probably almost never use guns. Most of them will spend their days writing tickets, pulling people over, and doing other mundane duties. The recent shooting incidents is fresh on everyone's mind. "Armed and dangerous" is might as well be "the return of Lanza." Perfect recipe for disaster.

    Dorner was prefect cop because he was in more combat situations. It's a shame that he resorted to vigilantism.

  • buybuydandavis||

    "The lawyer "Clearly it wasn't Dorner inside the car". But if that was the case, they wouldn't have fired. They didn't realize the truck was blue and a different make from Dorner's car until after they fired."

    Maybe you should make a positive id of a suspect or at least the vehicle they're driving before you start playing Rambo?

    If you're not sure what kind of vehicle you're looking for, maybe you shouldn't open fire on random vehicles that might be like the one you're looking for.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    This thread is funnier post ban.

    I was thinking the same thing.

    Somebody who wanders in and reads the expurgated version will be highly skeptical of the quality or sanity of the commentariat.

  • Ghetto Slovak Goatherder||

    Is this the expurgated version that I'm reading now?

  • johnl||

    Yup.

  • itsnotmeitsyou||

    Ok, I thought I was going crazy. People referencing people that haven't commented. It is more entertaining now that I know there is one side missing.

  • Proprietist||

    Me too. I saw John calling himself Mary and people responding to completely reasonable posts as being Mary as well.

  • G-dub||

    A guy was arrested at a gym in a local shopping mall here in San Diego yesterday, as far as I can tell just for fitting some general description of this Dorner guy and being "uncooperative" when a bunch of rifle-toting cops stormed the 24-hour fitness where he was spotted. I guess if you're black and have a muscular build you might want to keep a low profile for the next few days.

  • bonesteelwarren||

    Heat of the moment? Bullets flying everywhere and anywhere? Lots of noise, and screaming and shouting and running? Shoot the wrong person? Yeah. Mebbe. Mebbe I could see that. ...mebbe...

    These cops had time to think about it...

    ...and apparently shot the wrong people, on purpose. Triggers on guns do not pull themselves. You have to point the weapon, idenitify the target, then pull the trigger.

    Hispanic women with lotsa hair do not look like a black guy with short hair. Not even from the back.

    If anyone else had done something like this, they'd already be in jail and awaiting their day in court...on murder charges.

  • Generic Stranger||

    Thankfully, they didn't actually manage to kill the two ladies, so it'd be attempted murder charges.

  • Proprietist||

    "The windows were tinted, so they had no way of knowing it wasn't Dorner. Those silly ladies shouldn't have tinted their windows, duh."

  • Death Rock and Skull||

    For the record, university "public safety officers" are cops, in other words, not people.

  • waaminn||

    Punk cops liek that I jsut love to hear about in the news getting clipped in the line of duty!

    www.GoinAnon.da.bz

  • the origin of the feces||

    Wah! Wah! Boo-hoo! Sob! Everyone's so busy bawling that they're completely overlooking the most important point in all this: No officers were injured and that's what matters. Civilians are a penny per twelve-thousand, if even that much, we have hundreds of millions of them. But not LEOs, they are our very finest, and our most rare. Besides, law enforcers have been extensively trained and are fully qualified to do this kind of stuff. It's not like some idiot Joe Public is running around wildly blazing away randomly killing people without having the proper training to do so. Save the whining for that.

  • JDP73||

    A soldier overseas acting this way would be hauled up on warcrimes charges. But for the police at home its ok?
    Most cops are great public servants, but if you fire at someone/something that is not in any way a direct threat to you or anyone... Sorry but it sounds like attempted murder to me.

  • craigoxford@hotmail.com||

    The utter hypocrisy of this is amazing.

    First, a well trained unit such as in the military routinely are engaged in exactly the same situation as the LAPD officers face today. Yet, they are not out randomly shooting and ramming innocent people and vehicles. In fact, if any of those cases occur, the slightest of which, the military serviceman is brought up on charges, relieved of duty and confined stripped of their duties.

    Second, what type of an ill organized, untrained, incompetent mass would be out on the streets randomly shooting and ramming citizens without any supervision.

    Apparently Mr Dorner is correct in his assessment that there are issues in the LAPD department that require scrutiny.

    The actions of LAPD so far are not very impressive as they are being reported, I suggest this entire operation be turned over to a competent military commander for leadership and operational dispatch.

  • Rasilio||

    ""When an officer is injured, or goes down, or is threatened, the team mentality really steps up," Driscoll says, "you have that concern that individual citizens' rights are going to get trampeled when the officers are attempting to get justice revenge for their brothers."

    FIFY

  • Quimby||

    til I saw the paycheck which was of $9582, I have faith ...that...my mom in-law woz like they say actualy making money in there spare time from there pretty old laptop.. there best friend has been doing this 4 less than fourteen months and resantly cleared the loans on there house and bourt a great Car. we looked here, http://www.FLY38.COM

  • ||

    He loved combat and the military, but when his sexy looking partner kicked him in the balls, Dorner had to get revenge; he filed a false report that she kicked a handcuffed man.

  • دردشة عراقنا||

    Beautiful new romantic Iraqi chat Welcome
    http://www.iraaqna.com

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