Moody’s Sounds the Alarm on Student Borrowing

A growing chorus of economists and educators think that the higher education industry will be America's next bubble. Easy credit, high tuition, and poor job prospects have resulted in growing delinquency and default rates on nearly $1 trillion worth of private and federally subsidized loans. Now the ratings agency Moody's has weighed in with a chilling diagnosis: "Unless students limit their debt burdens, choose fields of study that are in demand, and successfully complete their degrees on time, they will find themselves in worse financial positions and unable to earn the projected income that justified taking out their loans in the first place." 

In August 2010 financial aid guru Mark Kantrowitz announced that student loan debt had, for the first time, surpassed credit card debt. A month later, the Department of Education announced that default rates for student loans had jumped from 4.6 percent in 2005 to 7 percent in 2008, the most recent year for which data is available. While the two announcements went largely unnoticed, some took the data points as evidence that America's next big bubble—higher education—was becoming dangerously inflated.

I ran that thesis—shaped by data that show the default rate for student loans (two-thirds of which are guaranteed by the government) have steadily increased over the last decade—by Kantrowitz last year. “You can’t flip an education,” he told me. In other words, higher education can’t be a bubble because there’s no speculation. Howard Horton of the New England College of Business and Finance was on the fence in 2009 about the higher ed bubble, but when demand for college degrees increased during the recession, Horton suggested that the college industry had more in common with Detroit than the housing crisis.

“These subsidies are kind of like propping up the auto industry with cash for clunkers, or the housing industry with cash for first-time buyers,” he told me last year. “We have this financial aid system that is keeping the system alive.”

Moody's new report has a much grimmer take: While "delinquency and loss rates on outstanding student loan balances remained steady throughout the recessions," the report reads, "the performance of other consumer loan segments has significantly improved as the economy has recovered." But that's likely to change soon, and not for the better. Moody’s projects that delinquency and default rates will actually get worse, even if the economy recovers in the next few years (itself an increasingly unlikely prospect).

To start, it helps to understand why student loans are doing poorly. Unlike home and auto loans, the conditions for which have been tightened drastically since 2008, student loans are for everybody. Borrowing isn’t based on income or even a salary expectation, but the promise that a college degree will pay for itself. But with unemployment hovering around 9 percent, college graduates from the best programs and schools are finding that’s not not the case. Eventually, the snake eats its own tail: Easy credit and the college myth have caused tuition to double since 2000, while tightened credit requirements have caused home prices to plummet. 

"The dollar volume of student lending is expected to grow at a faster rate given rising costs, although the growth rate of total tuition paid over the past decade may slow as students seek out cheaper options from proprietary and traditional educators,” the report reads. Yet due to gainful employment regulations handed down by the Department of Education, the proprietary sector—composed of for-profit colleges—is likely to shrink. The rules are designed to staunch the flow of federal aid to schools that have high drop-out and loan default rates, and it appears that the effect is being felt across the sector. The Washington Post Company announced today that that revenues at its biggest moneymaker, the for-profit college company Kaplan, were down 64 percent in the second quarter.

Moody’s also points to digital education tools driving down educational costs, but adds that “the expectation is that tuition will continue to rise at a rate greater than overall inflation over the next 10 years, thereby contributing to persistent growth in new loan originations.”

The threat of a prolonged recession means that an increase in borrowing will most likely lead to an increase in delinquencies and defaults. Students and workers alike see higher education as a shelter from the poor economic climate. But while a two- or four-year program may seem like a sensible way to wait out a recession, more and more students are emerging on the other side with improved skills—that’s if they studied an applied science, as opposed to humanities—and no job prospects. While entering a weak job market with an advanced degree makes many debt-saddled MBA recipients (for example) overqualified for the entry level jobs available to them.

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The report authors anticipate bleak times ahead if the federal government and private banks maintain their relaxed lending standards, especially if they continue to lend with the expectation that students will be able to pay them back: “Unless students limit their debt burdens, choose
fields of study that are in demand, and successfully complete their degrees on time, they will find themselves in worse financial positions and unable to earn the projected income that justified taking out their loans in the first place.”

To his credit, Kantrowitz anticipated a future in which would-be students shy away from expensive higher educations, due to the double-whammy of high debt and and gloomy job prospects. But he puts that future at least 20 to 30 years away, when today’s college graduates are likely to still be paying back student loans and thus reluctant to extravagantly finance their own children’s educations as well. Moody’s sees that problem coming to a head possibly within the next decade, and anticipates that the aftershock of declining demand for higher education will hurt both college towns and big cities, which rely on students (and their borrowed money) to keep businesses afloat during down times.

Even in the absence of speculation, says Moody’s, “Fears of a bubble in educational spending are not without merit.” The higher education optimists might want to batten down their hatches.

Mike Riggs is an associate editor at Reason magazine.

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  • A Serious Man||

    Right now I'm looking at maybe having 17K in debt after graduating college with a bachelor's degree in two years. Overall I don't think it's that bad since I did save considerably by attending community college for two years.

  • Doktor Kapitalism||

    So--the local taxpayers financed your education?

  • hmm||

    As Adam Smith once said, "If the stupid fuckers keep payin' fo it you might as well get yours."

    Or something like that.

  • ||

    Yeah what a parasite, right?

  • -||

    So--the local taxpayers financed your education?

    It isn't immoral or hypocritical to wish to get back some of which was stolen from you (or your parents) through taxation. Victims of theft have a right to reparations from the thief. If taxation is theft, then taxpayers have every moral right to reclaim their property.

  • Kevin Breen||

    They also paid for the roads I keep driving on.

  • Bingo||

    That's not bad at all. I'm looking at around $50k when I'm done, which fucking sucks but at least the field I'm going into pays well.

  • HMFIC||

    I won't have any debt. I got lucky, rich dad.

  • Old Salt||

    No debt here either and all the GI Bill asked is that I got shot at from time to time!

  • HMFIC||

    GI Bill is stealing from the taxpayer.

  • cynical||

    The taxpayer should go try getting shot at from time to time in the wars started by the people they elect, then.

  • Drax the Destroyer||

    Read it and pity my dumb ass: 70 fucking thousand dollars.

    But! I paid it off in 4.5 years by not having any fun whatsoever. Too bad, I don't have a life or job or anything worth a fucking damn.

  • Drax the Destroyer||

    Also, I'm a fool for paying it off because Kingbama will free us all from the specter of student debt by forcing Johnny ("I went to trade school") the Mechanic to subsidize(along with everyone else) 4-8 years of fucking and drinking. Thanks a lot Johnny! I'm sure my public-school educated moronic children will appreciate your sacrifice.

    Then again, if it cuts the salaries of tenured professors in half...

  • SIV||

    "Non-dischargable" should mean galérien if the debtor misses a payment.

  • Joe Biden||

    Oh, you can't default on those loans. It's not like they were mortgages or something...

  • jacob||

    Go crack your head - again.

  • fryGuy||

    "You can't flip an education." lol True.

    But you can pay tenured professors teaching useless subjects crazy-high salaries.

    You can pay administrators Fortune500 CEO pay levels based on tuition revenue.

    You can take the inflated revenue generated from easy-money student loans and erect buildings and infrastructure that will be useless and rotting in 20 years.

    There is no bubble in college degrees.
    There is a major bubble in educator salaries.

  • ||

    This.

    Administrators, clerical workers, janitors, etc -- all unionized, all unfireable, all really unnecessary.

    Obviously I have ulterior motives in this characterization as I consider my own job as one of the few necessary ones in higher education.

  • SIV||

    Are you teaching basic Freshman math Tulpa? Somebody is "socially promoting" all those students. I want to know why so many graduate-degreed acquaintances of mine need a calculator to figure a 20% tip.

  • ||

    A lot of grad degrees have nothing to do with math. Your average Gender Studies PhD could easily have never made it past trigonometry.

  • SIV||

    Percentages are pre-algebra Tulpa.

  • BakedPenguin||

    Jesus. I would have thought any degree with a thesis or dissertation would have to have some quantitative analysis for the research. (At the very least, Stat Methods II)

  • ||

    Some fields just don't have anything quantitative about them. I mean, I can imagine a quantitative gender studies thesis but seriously doubt there are many of them.

  • BakedPenguin||

    I can understand Arts / Humanities theses & dissertations that lack numbers. For any social science, though, I'd call bullshit without some study that can be repeated by others. If the study cam be repeated, then there needs to be data, confidence intervals, etc., etc.

    Otherwise, re-classify the discipline as "Arts and Humanities", b/c it's not science.

  • Butts Wagner||

    Otherwise, re-classify the discipline as "Arts and Humanities", b/c it's not science.

    I am not an expert on grad degrees, but aren't many of these degrees MA's and not MS's?

  • BakedPenguin||

    You may well be right. But Tulpa mentioned Gender Studies, which would usually fall into "Social Sciences". I was also thinking of programs like this MS in Sociology of Aging which is a terminal degree, and has no research requirement. In this case, you wouldn't even need trig, you could get an MS with Algebra and "Finite Math".

  • Colonel_Angus||

    Including math in your gender studies thesis is probably a great way to not get a PhD, either because the professor won't be able to understand it, or they will reject you for your elitist, inequality-causing knowledge.

  • ||

    Numbers are just a tool of the repressive patriarchy.

  • ||

    I can imagine axing gender studies. What a waste of time and money.

  • ||

    Are you a math prof? If so, do you always have chalk stains on your pants, despite using white boards for lessons? That seemed to be what math types would call a constant among my math teachers.

  • ||

    I usually don't have whiteboards, we're stone age here. There was one classroom with both a chalkboard and a whiteboard, and of course the whiteboard eraser was full of chalk from being used to erase the chalkboard and the whiteboard itself had a coating of chalk from being erased with the chalkboard eraser. Thus the markers dried out roughly immediately.

  • Bingo||

    Is "stone age" supposed to describe the equipment or the mental development of the faculty?

  • ||

    Huh?

  • Colonel_Angus||

    Both chalkboards and dry-erase boards are superior to computer tablets, as the instructors or presenters never seem to know how to use them, and writing neatly is impossible on them, especially complicated math shit.

  • ||

    There was one classroom with both a chalkboard and a whiteboard, and of course the whiteboard eraser was full of chalk from being used to erase the chalkboard and the whiteboard itself had a coating of chalk from being erased with the chalkboard eraser. Thus the markers dried out roughly immediately.

    Sounds like a lot of sharp grad students there.

    Perhaps a School of Primitive Public Information Distribution Systems is needed? Hmmmm....

  • Ted S.||

    I took multivariable calculus my first term in college. The professor looked as though she had rolled out of bed and put on the first things she took out of her dresser drawers.

  • Colonel_Angus||

    "put on the first things she took out of her dresser drawers"

    Anything interesting?

  • SIV||

  • ||

    That actually does piss me off (and is quite common). IMHO if you're teaching you need to be at least two levels of dress above the people you're teaching.

  • SIV||

    So the class wears coat and tie are you white tie and tailcoat? Black tie? Tuxedo?

  • Maxxx||

    Toga.

  • Old Salt||

    If I gotta dress up to conduct training, that's fine but I still REFUSE to buy underwear!

  • EscapedWestOfTheBIgMuddy||

    I had an older German gentleman for a physics prof in college. He wore a dark blue, three-piece, wool suit and oxfords every single day.

    But as soon as he got to his office, he'd switch the shoes for Birkenstocks, exposing his argyle sock. Then he head for the classroom to teach.

    He was a formal old coot, but very nice, very knowledgeable, and pretty entertaining in the classroom even beyond his mode of dress.

  • persistantvegetativestatesman||

    I think all instructors should be required to wear a cap and gown. Like the Marx brothers in "Horse Feathers".

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    What's amusing about that is all they have to do to calculate it is move the decimal point on the bill one place to the left and double the amount.

  • SIV||

    Do you realize that puts you in the upper 10th percentile? At least?

  • Hooha||

    Oh... my... god...

    What kind of black magic is this!?

  • HMFIC||

    Either you're lying or you need to find new friends.

  • Tulpa=moron||

    Yeah, but you're an idiot so what you think is pretty worthless.

  • MNG=PWN'D||

    lol!
    5
    The fun starts here and continues downthread.His belligerent drunk trolling is roughly between 6:45 and 9:15 PM or so. He loses "control" of his sockpuppets and continues under his "real handle".The denials start around midnight.

  • Raven Nation||

    There may be a bubble in educator salaries but it is not at all schools nor in all disciplines. I teach at a second tier state institution (I hold a PhD), have been here for 5 years, & make a little under $60k. I am NOT complaining, but I don't see a real bubble either. As Tulpa noted, administration often has high salaries: well into 6 figures even where I teach. And some faculty can serve as a dean for, say 5 years, then go back to the classroom but keep the dean salary.

  • Masturbatin' Pete||

    You teach at Morgan State?

  • El Foldo||

    Administrator salaries are the real problem. Nothing worse than an Ed.D with power.

  • ||

    I went to Johns Hopkins' web site and looked at the tuition. It was about $30,000 a year when I went there. Now it's nearly $60,000. Holy shit. Any poor saps who have to take out student loans are going to end up with almost $240,000 in debt.

  • SIV||

    And good luck to them paying it back if they major in Anthro!

  • Episiarch=stupid||

    "Any poor saps who have to take out student loans are going to end up with almost $240,000 in debt."

    No, they won't, as the yearly and lifetime maximums make that impossible.

  • Episiarch=stupid||

    "Lifetime maximum for graduates and undergraduates is $138,500 with no more than $65,500 in subsidized loans"

    www.student-loan-guru.com/stud.....now-yours/

  • ||

    Those are for govt-backed loans. You can get as much in ordinary loans as you want (and creditors are willing to lend).

  • Episiarch=stupid||

    "Those are for govt-backed loans"

    Which is what THIS ARTICLE is about, the "ordinary loans" are just loans, not student loans.

    So, you're wrong too Tulpa.

  • ||

    Which means your link was irrelevant to Epi's point. He was talking about debt in general, not just DoE-backed debt.

  • SIV=retarded||

    "He was talking about debt in general, "

    ACTUALLY liar, he said

    "Any poor saps who have to take out student loans "

    Looks like it says "student loans" there douchey, cry more now about being proven wrong and hating it.

    So you're wrong again and have made a fool of yourself.

  • MNG||

    Tulpa has a history of picking fights then looking like an asshole, ignore any more posts, they're going to be more of the same.

  • ||

    Wow, thanks for the analysis Mr. "Nice" Guy. I ain't the one calling people stupid, retarded, etc so it's kind of bizarre that you think I'm the one picking a fight here.

    What am I talking about? There's nothing bizarre about you being completely wrong about something.

  • ||

    I don't see $240000 figure anywhere in that quote. Let me make this simple for you: you need a quote where he says there is $240000 in student loan debt.

  • Tulpa knows he's wrong now||

    "you need a quote "

    No, I don't, his post is right there, and you're under the idiotic belief that I care about the opinion of a liar, you, which I don't.

    Funny though, how you lie and claim

    ""He was talking about debt in general"

    then get the quote

    ""Any poor saps who have to take out student loans "

    "I don't see $240000 figure"

    As though that IN ANY WAY relates to the fact that my quote proves irrefutably that he was NOT talking about "debt in general".

    Jesus, grow the fuck up and admit you were wrong.
    which proves you wrong, and rather than ADMIT you were wrong, like any reasonable adult would, you pathetically screech out

  • ||

    No, I don't, his post is right there, and you're under the idiotic belief that I care about the opinion of a liar, you, which I don't.

    You quoted him in your previous post, careful to leave off the part where he said "$240000 in debt".

  • Tulpa=retarded||

    "You quoted him in your previous post, careful to leave off the part where he said "$240000 in debt"."

    1) 240,000 wasn't up for debate
    2) "student loans" appears BEFORE "240,000 in debt", so it both totally proves you wrong and moots the need for listing anything after.

    You just can't STAND being wrong can you

  • ||

    "People who drink lemonade wind up with $240000 in debt."

    Does this sentence mean they spent $240000 on lemonade?

  • MNG||

    The phrase "student loans" means that the claim "He was talking about debt in general" is a lie.

    So, you lied. Play all the games you like, your failure to read commas correctly disqualifies you from having an opinion on grammar.

  • Tulpa knows he's wrong||

    ""People who drink lemonade wind up with $240000 in debt."
    Does this sentence mean they spent $240000 on lemonade?"

    As much as the words "student loans" mean "debt in general"

    But you go ahead pretending that for a 4 year school, the tuition of which is 60k, that a "student loan" bill of 240k is just a random number he chose, and not directly addressing the tuition costs.

    Why do you think being disingenuous is better than admitting you were wrong? Is your life THAT empty and meaningless that you'd rather have people think you're so shady and dumb that you don't know 4 years x 60k = 240k? You'd like to be right SO MUCH that you'd lower yourself to THAT?

    REALLY?

    Fine, you can have it. You lose either way.

  • MNG||

    "Any poor saps who have to take out student loans are going to end up with almost $240,000 in debt."

    Tulpa, he's right, you're a fucking idiot.

  • ||

    Oooh, I like this game of sentence disassembly. Pull random words out of the sentence and make them into a new one, claiming the new sentence was implied by the first. Let me try one:

    Tulpa, he's right, you're a fucking idiot.

    So you're calling the "=retarded" troll a fucking idiot. I agree!

  • Tulpa=retarded||

    No, idiot, he's pointing oput how the phrase "student loans" prove that you're lying when you claim "He was talking about debt in general".

    HE SPECIFICALLY LISTED STUDENT LOANS, thus proving you're wrong and a liar.

    Again.

  • MNG||

    "So you're calling the "=retarded" troll a fucking idiot. I agree!"

    You're saying you don't know what commas do and how to construct sentences? Cause that is what you're saying.

  • SIV||

    You meant Tulpa=Retarded, MNG.

  • MNG||

    Wasn't me.

  • SIV||

    Yes it was dipshit. = writes just like you and doesn't know html because he's a dumb Uni-administrator with a useless "labor studies" PhD who was provoked by Tulpa's comment about overpaid useless administrators.

  • MNG||

    "doesn't know html because he's a dumb Uni-administrator with a useless "labor studies" PhD "

    http://reason.com/archives/201.....nt_2440730

    Thanks for the laugh at your expense< I look forward to your lame attempt at saving face.

  • ||

    I don't know if this is true, but if it is I'm laughing my ass off. It's my dream to torment administrators. God knows I can never repay them for all the shit they've put me through.

  • Administrators||

    You douches never realize you get shit because you're douches.

  • Tulpa=stupid||

    Seriously, can you not tell the difference or is your moronic contrarian streak forcing you to post something which is wholesale incorrect?

  • ||

    "Ordinary" loans don't have the requirements or restrictions of the loans being discussed in the article, with said requirements and restrictions being the reason student loans are becoming a problem.

  • Tulpa=retarded||

    "Unlike home and auto loans, the conditions for which have been tightened drastically since 2008, student loans are for everybody. Borrowing isn’t based on income or even a salary expectation, but the promise that a college degree will pay for itself. "

    Try reading the article you're running your d-sucker about next time Tulpa, so you're not totally wrong like you were here.

  • ||

    Ooh ooh, do my handle next, this is hilarious!

  • capitol l=dumdum||

    You're right. It is fun!!

  • ||

    You waited too long so I came up with my own, and it's better than yours.

  • SIV||

    ^Spoof^

  • Lib'Tarian||

    Why won't anyone take us seriously?

  • Episiarch=stupid||

    Graduate school -total limit for non-medical students is approximately $138,000
    Medical students can get up to $200,000 in student loans.
    Independent student are eligible for additional $23,000 in unsubsidized loan.

  • ||

    I don't know what it's like now, but when I started grad school I could get a student loan from wells Fargo and not the government

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    That's why I laugh at the U of Wisconsin college students that were chimping out at the state capitol last spring. Those idiots are shelling out $4000 a semester just for tuition, and will be thrown into a job market that's the drizzling shits. Can't wait until they realize that they can't discharge their debt in bankruptcy.

  • Night Elf Mohawk||

    Cash advance on the credit cards, pay the student loans, default on the cards.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    I don't think college students can receive enough in credit lines on cards to get enough of a cash advance window to pay off over $30K in debt.

    But then again, it's been over a decade since I applied for a credit card outside my personal bank, so I may be wrong.

  • Danish BA||

    Indeed in Denmark, in the name of equality, we have a system where everyone has a chance of going to college - financially.. that's a good thing, because poor kids with abilities can get a chance. The problem is that even people without abilities get a chance, so the problem isn't financial, it's screening.

    At least here in Denmark, we have a lot of people "killing time" in university because they can, and thus devalueing the whole achievement for the rest of us.

    And as a side note: Why encourage people to seek studies in the sectors of demand? In 5 years they'll be filled and you have the same issue.. instead, let's encourage people to do the right thing with their lives, do it good and make everyone achieve their potential.

  • old-timer||

    Too often, "college bred" means one long loaf.

  • BakedPenguin||

    Dansk - you could broaden that, and say that throughout the education system, people should be encouraged to find the closest fit to their desires, talents, and the specific needs of the economy.

    In the US, telling a high-school age student to pursue welding or auto mechanics would be seen as 'limiting' them - even if they had an interest in it. The fact is, both of these professions pay decently and allow someone to live well. I don't understand the prejudice that some people have against certain professions simply because they don't require college.

  • HMFIC||

    Sheeit. Eff being a mechanic or welder.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    Forty years of managerialism and cultural brainwashing that blue-collar work is for losers. Because it can't be posted enough:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....ure=relmfu

  • WTF?||

    "he puts that future at least 20 to 30 years away, when today’s college graduates are likely to still be paying back student loans"

    Moronic assertion, 20 years is well beyond the average for paying off loans, nevermind how far out of whack 30 years is...

  • SIV||

    A Freshman or Sophomore today, who goes for a PhD, may well still be paying 30 years from now.

  • SIV=stupid||

    "A Freshman or Sophomore today, who goes for a PhD"

    Would in no way be near the "average" (can you read? A-V-E-R-A-G-E) and so is irrelevant to MY comment, and the discussion in general.

    CAN a person take 30 years? YES. However, if you'd READ THE POST YOU WERE REPLYING TO, you'd see why your post is stupid.

  • SIV||

    nevermind how far out of whack 30 years is

    Who's stupid now asshole?

  • SIV=retarded||

    "Who's stupid now asshole?"

    Still you, maybe try figuring out what average means so you're not making a fool of yourself again.

    "20 years is well beyond the average for paying off loans, nevermind how far out of whack 30 years is..."

    You have said NOTHING and posted NOTHING refuting my point that 20 or 30 years is WELL OUTSIDE THE AVERAGE.

    You, my pathetic little friend, are quite clearly still the stupid one.

  • SIV||

    So MNG has gone "full retard" troll now. I liked you better when you were just a dumbass.

  • MNG||

    Thanks, no one ever liked you.

  • SIV||

    When the bubble pops you are going to be TSOL with that "labor studies" PhD.

  • MNG||

    Aw, I hurt your feelings, there there...

  • ||

    One of the most disliked imbeciles on H&R tells another poster that no one ever liked them?!

    Too. Fucking. Funny.

  • Zod||

    WHO IS THIS IMBECILE? WHERE IS HE?

  • MNG=uselss cocksucker||

    Hey, not everyone that wastes taxpayer money to study labor is an imbecile. Douchebags yes, but not imbeciles.

  • ||

    Take it easy on her. It's hard going through life without a name of your own, so that you have to identify yourself with insults.

  • Tulpa=retarded||

    Is that harder than reading the words "student loans" in a post where they appear, then claiming otherwise?

    Cause that's what you did.

  • MNG||

    Wow, he hurt your feelings so much you chased him down into an unrelated comment string and fired off an insult.

    You mad.

  • ||

    Uh, this is a very much related comment string.

    Speaking of which, what's your reason for insulting me twice now in this conversation you weren't a part of?

  • MNG||

    "Uh, this is a very much related comment string."

    Uh, no it isn't, it's a discussion between two people that you barged in to because you were proven wrong and can't stand it.

  • MNG||

    "what's your reason for insulting me twice now in this conversation you weren't a part of?"

    You first.

  • Hobie Hanson||

    I'm putting all five of you on ignore.

  • SIV||

    What do you mean "weren't a part of"?

  • Like milchig and fleishig||

    Can't we have separate threads for trolls?

  • ||

    Next you'll be demanding separate drinking fountains and toilets.

  • MNG||

    And you'll still be wrong, still be trolling anyone who shows it, and still be crying about it.

  • Dr. Semmelweis ||

    What's wrong with separating drinking fountains and toilets?

  • SIV||

    Quack!

  • SIV||

    "Dr. John Snow" would've been much more apropos.

  • thread-jumper||

    That would have been almost inapropopriate.

  • MNG||

    "doesn't know html because he's a dumb Uni-administrator with a useless "labor studies" PhD "

    http://reason.com/archives/201.....nt_2440730

    Thanks for the laugh at your expense, I look forward to your lame attempt at saving face.

  • SIV||

    Excuse me: "Drunk and doesn't know html"

  • Jim||

    I just want to thank you all. The "such and such = retard" troll, along with MNG being unusually belligerent, has made my evening.

  • Bingo||

    *scroll scroll scroll*

  • ||

    Jim=amused

    Dumbass honky.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Oh, noes! Hobie is putting people on ignore!

    Oh, the humanity.

  • Shelly||

    Many people can't afford to pay them off in 10-15 years so they lump them together and pay them over 20-30 years.

    A relative is still paying on loans from 1979 since they paid them off partially, went back to grad. school (in chemistry) so the loans were allowed to be put on hold and did not start repaying again until 1998.

  • Doktor Kapitalism||

    In Defense of Elitism, by William A. Henry III, had a whole chapter on how many people were going to college. He points out that (even back in the early 1990s) a college degree was becoming an unofficial requirement. You have to go to college to have any decent job prospects, but it's entirely "optional."

    The solution he supported, though, was to close 1/3 of all colleges, presumably through state intervention, though he didn't think it would likely come to pass.

  • Jim||

    A big problem is, even in fields that aren't in demand, they want you to have a BA at a bare minimum. I've worked at several places where the damn secretaries had degrees. It's a massive over-creditialization problem. They look at it like, "everybody else has one, so what the fuck is wrong with you?"

  • ||

    Yeah, I found the same thing when I was looking for work while I was in college. I wanted to work full time somewhere that would give me somewhat useful experience, so I was looking for receptionist/office type gigs and it was really tough getting in the door without a BA.

    And in my office now, the admin assistants/support staff almost all have a degree of some sort. You don't really need to have 4 years of art history or whatever to answer phones and schedule meetings on Outlook, but it's become a quick way to weed out the perceived undesirables. So kids today are usually right in thinking university is a must-do.

  • goneGalt||

    ^This^ and
    ^This^

    With state colleges, subsidized with money taken by force, charging 16K and up there is no way a burger flipper or a shelf stocker is ever gonna be able to better themself via college.

    They might have some software and business savy (Bill Gates). They might have a knack for financials (Warren Buffett). But not enough people are gonna be able to come up with a better mousetrap to keep a command economy or a free market going.

    I don't want more money taken from me or you to subsidize any of this. I want credentials to have some relevance to the respective career. Secretaries can't possibly NEED a four year degree. The reservations staff at Enterprise Rent-A-Car can't possibly NEED a four year degree.

    Dammit! If we want people to be responsible for themselves and not be a burden on society, there needs to be the opportunity to identify their particular talents and the freedom to exercise those talents.

    I'm not ruling in or out any particular education or credentials here. But, if there is a goddam witch doctor that has a documented history of curing cancer, I want him to have the freedom to save my life. Without any educational or professional cartels getting in my way!

  • SIV||

    Sucks that there are guys slaving all week as middle managers just so they can relax on the weekend pushing wrenches or making wood furniture.All because "mechanic" and "cabinet-maker" aren't in the same social class as "middle manager" even if the money is better.

  • MNG||

    "doesn't know html because he's a dumb Uni-administrator with a useless "labor studies" PhD "

    http://reason.com/archives/201.....nt_2440730

    Thanks for the laugh at your expense, I look forward to your lame attempt at saving face.

  • ||

    Is this your chimpanzee cartoon thread, MNG?

  • ||

    MNG does too know html tags! And is just being an annoying cunt today it seems.

  • ||

    TODAY?!? TODAY?!?

  • goneGalt||

    I agree. And those who would be bullied by family or neighbors into careers and degrees and debts instead of their true calling will create their own little piece of Hell here on Earth.

    But not everyone can turn a wrench or a lathe competently. And in a free market, we can't subsidize or require them to. Not everyone is a superstar.

    But if I am willing to get out of bed before dawn to make coffee and sandwiches for commuters down at the station, I ought to be able to. And not be required to have a license, or a culinary degree, or permission from rent-seekers and statists. I've been feeding myself for fifty fukin' years and I haven't killed myself yet. I HAVE been poisoned at state-licensed restaurants by culinary school graduates!

  • HMFIC||

    No one would buy your coffee and sandwiches bro.

  • Old Salt||

    I'd much rather but a food truck sandwich from some middle school dropout asshole who actually takes pride in their work instead of some by-the-numbers-overpriced-tastes-like-the-box-it-came-in-sandwich made by some bitch with a Gender Studies PhD who is pissed at the world because her "superior education" didn't save her from the kitchen!

  • HMFIC||

    I like Starbucks.

  • goneGalt||

    As it should be in a free market. If the product does not provide value or fulfill a need, then the business must be allowed to fail.

    But right now, our state selects one approved vendor for each station. No one else gets even the opportunity to compete in an open market.

  • goneGalt||

    Above is a reply to HMFIC. Thread got eaten by the server squirrel?

    Damn, even the tree rats don't want my sandwiches!

  • Colonel_Angus||

    "not enough people are gonna be able to come up with a better mousetrap to keep a command economy or a free market going"

    As employers focus their priorities in an individual's degree and GPA, they are going to end up with a workforce that can follow a simple repetitive process but lack critical thinking skills. This is okay for people who are only expected to fix computers or file shit, but the employers are still causing themselves to pay higher salaries for the equivalent of a high school or trade education.

  • goneGalt||

    True dat.

    One of the most successful members of my family is my handyman brother in law. Unfortunately, I do not have his size, strength, or talent.

    I'm more the computer fixer. Shit.

  • ||

    When you think about it, it is a good way to determine who has the stick-to-it-iveness to get a 4-year degree. Along the same lines, a PhD is well understood (among us PhDs) to not necessarily mean the holder is super smart, but simply able to focus on one topic/project and be able to logically defend the work.

    Nevertheless, I do agree that it is a bubble and it will pop. It's been my experience, that a degree from a state school is worth at least 90% (salary-wise) as an ivy-league degree (in science, at least), while costing about one-fourth as much.

  • ||

    You don't really need to have 4 years of art history or whatever to answer phones and schedule meetings on Outlook, but it's become a quick way to weed out the perceived undesirables.

    When you look at how bad public education is, you can't reliably say someone with a high school degree can do basic math, or read very well. Or show up on time. Or do their work on time. Grind it 5 days a week, under supervision (i.e. management).

    I think that's part of college-degree inflation. A BA is the new high-school diploma because it now is the certificate of what a HS diploma used to certify about someone.

    I mean, look at how much of a typical fluffy ('Sociology?' Whatever.) degree's syllabus is mostly remedial stuff in modern college, with modern students?

  • ||

    Don't they know, education loans aren't actually for paying for school. Their true purpose is to finance a 4 or 5 year party!

  • goneGalt||

    Thirty years ago you didn't need loans to party. I went straight from high school to full-time work. I somehow managed to party for the next 12 years while getting good performance reviews and merit pay increases. [No Union]

    Decades later, after a layoff, I went back to see if there were any openings for the very same job I performed competently all those years ago.

    Guess what? Yep, these kids need a four year degree to do a job I could perform at 18 while drugged outta my fukin' mind!

  • ||

    given the recent reporting on just who is in college these days, you will find that the majority of these loans are probably taken out by, you guessed it - women.

    I also believe there is a very high correlation between the rise in single-mother households due to the rampant divorce rates, and the entire mortgage fiasco that triggered some of this financial mess.

    These are the consumers of high-end debt: women.

    and they are the ones defaulting.

    end of story.

    Empowerment ?

    I think it's the wrong word to use of modern women.

    it's more a of brainwashing exercise.

    or possibly indoctrination into a new species of parasites.

  • SIV||

    ^ ^

  • ||

    What are those supposed to be?

  • (.Y.)||

    You can't tell?

  • The Immaculate Trouser||

    Wow, the trolls really come out in force over the stupidest things.

  • hazeeran||

    Tide goes in, tide goes out.

  • Puppets||

    And we love to dance!

  • Bill O'Reilly||

    Tide goes in, tide goes out.

    Can't explain that!

  • another rob||

    I'm just finishing an on-line MSc with a red-brick university in England. The cost of the 2-year course for UK students - around $5000. For overseas students - around $10,000.

    It's time for people to start shopping around in the global education market and purchasing high quality courses from institutions that aren't part of the corrupt bubble in the USA.

    I predict that'll be an effective strategy for a few years, until enough college administrators buy off enough congress-critters to get a law passed that de-recognises foreign degrees. But there's a window of opportunity until that happens.

  • HMFIC||

    Online degrees are garbage.

  • another rob||

    Really? In all the countries of the world? Please provide a link to the published, peer reviewed, paper based upon your, doubtless exhaustive, global research.

  • HMFIC||

    Yeah, because you can cheat.

  • another rob||

    Cheat? Have you ever done any post-grad study?

  • ||

    The problem is if the majority of employers don't like online degrees, then, perception is greater than reality.

  • Colonel_Angus||

    "higher education can’t be a bubble because there’s no speculation"

    Bullshit. Taking out loans, expecting your education to be worth more, is a kind of speculation.

  • ||

    it was really tough getting in the door without a BA.

    What ever happened to skills-testing job applicants? Was it banned as "unfair"?

  • Jim||

    I dunno, but it sucks. I left the law firm I was at to work a similiar position at a bank, because I was told after several years at the firm, point blank, that no matter how well I did the job, it requires a masters. They ended up hiring a Pakistani kid who had zero...and I do mean zero, I was friends with the HR lady and cornered her about it...working experience, let alone any in our field. But he was hired to be my boss because he had a 4.0 gpa and a masters in business.

    So fuck em, I left.

  • Bingo||

    Good lord, fuck em is right. That sort of requirement shows there is an absolute moron somewhere in your chain of command.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    It usually starts with the H.R. folks who are too lazy to investigate actual experience over pointless credentialism.

  • goneGalt||

    What ever happened to skills-testing job applicants? Was it banned as "unfair"?

    Good point. See my post above.

  • Neu Mejican||

    What's up here at H&R?
    Hissy fits left and right.
    Sarcasmic sobbing all over his keyboard on the AGW thread...Tulpa and MNG acting like jilted lovers in this one.

    Weird.

  • Jim||

    Tulpa and MNG acting like jilted lovers in this one.

    If the state hadn't been involved in their marriage, the conditions for disolving it would have been spelled out contractually beforehand, and we wouldn't get these messy divorces.

    I'm more worried about their kids, John and SIV. Won't somebody think of the children!

  • Neu Mejican||

    I thought John was the ex and SIV the weird uncle.

    I can never keep it straight.

  • ||

    Speaking of, where has John been?

  • ||

    Is it me, or does it seem that since minge spent all of that time arguing with John he's really gone off the deep end? He now has this whole socratic badgering asshole robot act going on now. It seems things were different in the past...as they always do.

    Maybe he's being spoofed.

    POSTER POSTING AS MINGE WHAT DOES MINGE HAVE HIS PHD IN?

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    Speaking of, where has John been?

    It's interesting that capitlol l and John are never seen here at the same time. Cap, do you experience periods of lost time? Perhaps wake up face down on a keyboard with no recollection of how you got there or what pro-Israel thing you typed?

  • ||

    That would explain the accident with the anal probe.

    OR WAS IT AN ACCIDENT????!!!

  • ||

    I've gotten into some good arguments with John before. Like when he rails against the urban elites and needs to be reminded that a government attourney living in DC is not some backwoods, down home, ol' timey real american.

    Besides, I think John is here in the daytime mostly...wasting yer tax dollars arguing with minge.

  • ||

    Not that any of my answers to Fist's questions is 'no'.

  • SIV||

    MNG
    PWN'D

  • ||

    We fight so you don't have to. You ungrateful chunk of foulbrood.

  • Jim||

    And we certainly appreciate it ; )

  • Nephilium||

    Really off-topic here...

    S&P just downgraded the US debt.

  • ||

    Wow, I am fucking shocked, shocked I tell you!

    I was assured that when we borrowed more money to pay off our old debt's interest that would show the world that America pays its bills.

  • Name Nomad||

    I'm more shocked that S&P didn't have a direct line with the Fed, the Treasury, or another government player... who would pay the ratings agencies to keep the rating at AAA.

  • Realist||

    They missed their payment.

  • ||

    A payment in inflated dollars is, after all, no payment at all.

  • ||

    A credit-rating downgrade typically leads to higher interest rates, and would have a huge impact on the economy by making it more expensive for the government, companies and consumers to borrow money.

    Really? I would think it would make it less expensive for consumers and companies to borrow money since they would now have better credit relative to the govt.

  • ||

    If the fed and the government were one in the same I suspect you would be right.

  • ||

    Ah, what a tangled web we wipe our asses with.

  • mustard||

    I hope the teebaggers are happy now. If we had just raised the debt ceiling like we did back when the grownups were in charge, the ratings agencies would never have blinked. Now that the GOP has shown that it's willing to risk default to score political points they're right to be worried.

    How ironic that the teebaggers are actually increasing the deficit now as we will need to pay higher interest. Nice job breaking it, morons.

  • Nephilium||

    I blame beer for what I am about to say:

    mustard, you fucking moron. Not raising the debt limit does not equal default. To default, the executive would have to decide to pay for cowboy poetry (insert other wasteful program here) over their debt obligations.

  • Greer||

    mustard, you fucking moron

    I believe the correct phrase is "mustard, you ignorant slut". At least if you're over 50.

  • Nephilium||

    I have not yet hit 50+, but am aware of the phrase... I'll punish myself and my liver with more alcohol.

  • goneGalt||

    Cock sucking homos(NTTAWWT!) are raising the debt?

  • $10,000 Pyramid Scheme ||

    mus - tard...

    *looks at contestant, nods*

    ree...
    ree...
    ree...

    Oh, I give up.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Behold, the reverse Nostradamus!

  • ||

    How ironic that the teebaggers are actually increasing the deficit now as we will need to pay higher interest. Nice job breaking it, morons.

    Yeah, how DID those sneaky bastards manage to infiltrate both S & P and the Chinese government??

  • Devil's Advocate||

    Then I guess it is time to stop borrowing, asshole.

  • SIV||

    USA
    PWN'D

  • Warty||

    And it's completely the fault of TEAM RED.

    The credit rating agency said that it is cutting the country's top AAA rating by one notch to AA-plus. The credit agency said that it is making the move because the deficit reduction plan passed by Congress on Tuesday did not go far enough to stabilize the country's debt situation.

    NO! TEAM RED!!!!!!

  • Montani Semper Liberi||

    Oh, man, too bad this came Friday night. It'll give traders a couple days to come down from the ledge before Monday. Imagine if this news had dropped in the middle of the day.

  • Realist||

    That's not off topic....that should be the topic. The USA has not deserved a triple A rating for years!

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    That sound is the S&P giving mobiustrip's face the "out-of-money shot."

  • Threadjack||

    Great Balko article.His knutkicking articles might have saved a man's life.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/06/cory-maye-freed-after-10-years_n_890456.html

  • LibertarianJRT||

    The prosecutor should be locked up for 10 years. Eye for an eye.

  • Puppets||

    Tooth for a truth.
    Not that we're violent.

  • Bingo||

    You know, we are really overdue for another celebrity sex tape scandal.

  • Achtung Coma Baby||

    MSNBC is having a schizophrenic-time trying to both discredit S&P and use the credit-downgrading to disparage the Republicans for waiting so long before raising the debt ceiling.

  • ||

    I was jealous, so I did up my own handle.

  • ||

    Double[A]plusgood, herc.

    Don't worry so much man, it makes you sort of a downer.

  • Auntie Semitic||

    The credit of the American-Israeli Military-Industrial Complex the [EMPIRE] has been [DOWNGRADED]

    Works for me!

  • ||

    We survived having to default in the early 19th century. We will survive this time despite what the dooms-day-sayers say.

  • space biologist||

    no nukes then

  • live free in SC||

    My sister's advice when I was picking a school - "Go somewhere cheap, they are all the same."

    When she was at Wake the tuition was $17k. Now it is $56k.

    Subsidized state school ftw!

  • ||

    I remember when you could wash a load of laundry for 50 cents.

  • ||

    Hell, sonny, I can remember when you could DROP a load for 50 cents.

  • AlgerHiss||

    Has anyone ever taken a college/university to court to get their money back: For delivering a defective product?

    Why not?

  • goneGalt||

  • SxCx||

    How does the average person tell what fields are "in demand"? Besides the cover of Time, obviously.

  • ||

    High salary is probably the easiest to recognize indicator.

  • SxCx||

    Where are those published? I mean accurately.

  • sam||

    check Bureau of Labor Statistics but take it with a grain of government salt; get an idea how they compute job growth projections. understand economics well enough to figure how current/expected government policy impacts the economy. check salary.com and other such sites. look at job postings. obtain real skills, and diversify. don't sit in an office.

  • SxCx||

    And I'm not necessarily talking about high salaries anyway, as we all know not everyone can make one. There will always be a staggered hierarchy of incomes.

    I just mean quality, available work of any kind. Would unemployment even be a problem if people knew where they were needed? Labor is one of the most opaque of all markets.

  • MNG||

    Dudes, none of the above comments are from me.

    What kind of person would post dozens of comments on a board under someone else's handle? The occasional spoof post might be funny, but wtf? That's a mental problem...

    Maybe Reason can tell us what handles this spoofer usually posts under?

  • MNG||

    One way in the future to tell this is that I don't tend to post like this spoofer, with the short, essentially substance-less posts ("Noone liked you?" WTF, I'm offended anyone thought I would post that! That's Warty/SF level at best...).

    Secondly, while I disagree with Tulpa and Episarch I'm almost always polite to them, they have my respect. Any long time poster knows that.

    Seriously, what kind of demented human being would carry on such a long, drawn out discussion under another's handle? That's storing your own urine in jars bizarre...

  • Bingo||

    You were drunk dude, it's okay. We all have our low moments.

  • MNG||

    No, it wasn't me. Again, how disturbed can a person be to go through an entire discussion as someone else, on a thread where the person you're spoofing doesn't even appear. WTF?

  • SIV||

    I lol'd all over again.

  • Matt Damon||

    Everyone, please stop posting under fake names.

  • ||

    Do you work for Google+?

  • SxCx||

    Law was supposedly "in demand", so now that market's flooded too.

    How do you tell? Besides magazines.

  • HMFIC||

    People without college degrees have no class.

  • ||

    Dude makes a lot of sense when youthink about it.

    www.anon-web.us.tc

  • SxCx||

    Loan article, so banner ads for loans.

    THE SUICIDE MACHINE

  • NL_||

    I'm on track to hit $250k in loans for law school. The starting "market" salary for biglaw firms is $160k plus whatever the firm gives in bonuses. So as long as you make at or near market salary, it's a good investment. But the number of law students greatly outstrips the number of biglaw positions, meaning that most of the biglaw jobs go to kids in the top 10 to 20 schools. And since the level of tuition is pretty consistent even in the middling and crappy schools, there are tons of law students paying through the nose with little chance of getting to one of the payoff jobs.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    But the number of law students greatly outstrips the number of biglaw positions, meaning that most of the biglaw jobs go to kids in the top 10 to 20 schools.

    Law and business schools are probably some of the best bellwethers for the education bubble. It's easy to crack on the Gender Studies goons determined to make society pay for their daddy issues, but does the country really need that many more lawyers and MBAs?

    The whole credentialism racket is quite simply bullshit, and the sooner it pops, the better.

  • ||

    uh oh, I'm about to go get my MBA. But I already got my CPA, and am presently employed with 5+ years of accounting experience. I'm hoping it will push me over the edge for the next controller position (and my current employer thinks it's a good idea).

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    And since the level of tuition is pretty consistent even in the middling and crappy schools, there are tons of law students paying through the nose with little chance of getting to one of the payoff jobs.

    One of my exes couldn't get into San Diego law school, so she went to Thomas Jefferson instead. She's still going to come out with over $150K in debt, and a job that pays about $65K a year (if that). Utterly fucking pointless, and it's only because she spent her 20s screwing around and "having experiences" instead of building a career.

  • Devil's Advocate||

    @NL_

    A few problems with your plan:

    1) BigLaw has decided that they can get by with fewer associates because the ones that are left are being worked twice as hard because they are paid $160K/year and don't want to leave the gravy train to compete with hundreds of unemployed lawyers for every position. Even at a top ten school, it is not as rosy as it was three years ago.

    2) BigLaw sucks. If you go the BigLaw route you will end up working in some area of the law that you don't really like (or soon won't) for clients that you don't give a shit about. Even people from top law schools often leave BigLaw within 2-3 years.

    3) If you do make it past 3 years, it will be because you are now dead inside, having sold your soul to pay off your student loans.

    I don't mean to rain on your parade, but I do recommend knowing what you are getting into before you sign on the dotted line. If you do take a BigLaw job for BigBucks, I recommend living in the cheapest shithole of an apartment that you can (without risking your safety, of course) and saving as much of your salary as possible for the first couple of years, so that you can pay off your loans ASAP and have the flexibility to go and start/join the kind of practice that you really wanted to be a part of when you started law school.

  • ||

    Is sadistically whipping a comely young college-debted “voluntary slave” ok, as long as I have a Libertarian voluntary contract?

    “If voluntary slavery is legal, we can consummate this financial arrangement, to our mutual gain. If not, not, to the great loss of both of us. Slave-master Rafe would never shell out the cold cash if, after he paid, I could haul him into court on assault and battery charges when he whipped me.” ~Voluntary Slave Contracts by Walter Block http://www.lewrockwell.com/block/block134.html

    Is there any age limit on Libertarian “voluntary slaves?”

    “[A parent] may sell the rights to the child in a voluntary contract. In short, we must face the fact that the purely free society will have a flourishing free market in children.” Children and Rights, Mises Daily http://mises.org/daily/2568

    This sort of moral breakdown originates from the libertarians' degrading, humiliating, and objectifying view of humans, as evidenced by their proselytizing query:

    “Do you own yourself?”

    It’s as if the great Libertarian Savior has spoken, “Thou shalt own thy neighbor as thyself."

    Defining people merely as a human resource to be owned is a horrible objectification of human life, and reveals libertarianism as a BDSM economic model.

  • ||

    I posted that at CopBlock, but I've been placed on moderation again, since the free exchange of ideas isn't always compatible with the dogma of a Fundamentalist economic religion. LOL We'll see if they let it pass...so far, they have within a few hours.

    Human Trafficking
    Posted on August 05, 2011
    Cop Block
    http://www.copblock.org/6446/human-trafficking/

  • ||

    This makes a lot of sense dude. WOw.

    www.anon-web.it.tc

  • luis vuitton||

    Bhí ábhar a mhúineadh Celesta sula raibh sí réidh go cognaíoch í a fhoghlaim. Mar sin, d'fhéadfadh sí aghaidh ar smaointe teibí sa ghrád 5 nuair a inchinn feidhmiú fós ag leibhéal coincréite. Ag brú le haghaidh níos airde "caighdeáin" Tá aistriú ach i múineadh ábhar níos mó (agus ní réasúnaíocht níos mó) sula mbíonn na daltaí réidh chun é. Is é an toradh (a) múinteoirí balbh an obair síos a dhéanamh ar éigean soláimhsithe é; (b) na scoláirí a fhorbairt míthuiscintí nach dtéann amach ina dhiaidh sin

  • mr.vb||

    thank u

  • ||

    The unmentioned problem here is you have businesses that require college degrees for positions that could easily be performed by anyone, degree or not. I don’t mean to knock the average bank teller, but you have to have a college degree for that. When I asked what kind of degree, I was told “Any. Just have a degree.” What a load.

    Maybe businesses should have to prove that a degree is necessary for a position before requiring them. That would open up some decent jobs.

    After that, we need to reduce the fluff from education. “Well rounded.” Tosh. More like money grubbing exploitation. Most of the classes that fall under that well-rounded banner are asinine wastes of time that could be eliminated from the curricula. A mechanical engineer doesn’t need a humanities class. If he or she would like to take one, fine, but don’t force it. I think you’d find that most people would take only what they needed and then perhaps a few things here and there that they were interested in. I’m sure some people are bristling at this, but there isn’t a huge demand in for a mech. eng. who is well versed in neo-classic art.

    What currently takes four to five years (if you’re lucky) could be obtained in 1.5 to 2.5 years. Some of those ridiculous classes that are only full because they are a required elective would be completely dropped, others would be reduced to part-time faculty, and suddenly tuitions rates can afford to plummet. Now people who normally wouldn’t go to school are going to school and doing better than ever because they don’t have to waste time taking classes they don’t need.

    Education and tuition crises averted. You’re welcome.

  • ||

    Well-rounded means well-domesticated.

    17 years of sitting still in school following orders will beat the life out of any hominid.

  • ||

    Ha ha. Look at all the libertarians pooh-poohing broad curricula and an "education bubble". Yet, somehow, these are the same narrowly pro-business libertarians who never met an MBA they wouldn't eagerly fellate under the boardroom table. You know: MBAs, those "Masters" of that generic, amorphous field of study known as "business".

    Hey, uh, what specific kind of business is one trained for in exchange for $150 grand in tuition these days?

    Oh, no particular kind, of course: just "business". Finance, fishing, factories, whatever.

    Ha ha.

  • King Ludd||

    You're totally right dog. People think you go to college to learn a skill. What college is about is learning HOW to learn. I will forget details that I have picked up as a U.S. History major but I won't forget all the reading, writing and research skills I learned.

  • ||

    It's evident that your reading comprehension did not improve as a result of your higher education. Orel Hazard is saying that the reading, writing, and research skills that you value so highly weren't worth money spent. I'd have to agree.

    Unless you didn't know how to read and write before you went to college, you wasted your money and time. You could have had the same experience by joining a book club and writing a blog.

  • King Ludd||

    Join book club and start a blog? Come on dog. I like you man you're one of the folks and I will never forget my roots. But college is also about meeting fine ass women with booty's that just won't quit. It's about social class. It's about time management. Look at the MFer who started this website. He has a couple of post-graduate degrees. I don't see him renouncing them as useless. And they were in gender studies. Or was it English? Same thing. What you learn is that you are superior to those without college educations. ANd I didn't have any debt cause my father wasn't lazy like all those other losers with college debt and he paid straight cash nah mean? And I will never forget the parties drugs and women. Shit was off da hook yo! Long story short you's gots to get to college. Nothing sexier than a smart lady with her thong sticking out of her pants. It's awesome homie!

  • ||

    If the government would quit subsidizing everything the schools would be forced to lower their prices and then people wouldn't have to borrow so much to participate.

  • Seriously?||

    BINGO!!!

    And allow me to add that a higher education would also be more meaningful.

    Things are always more meaningful when people achieve it on their own, as opposed as it being given to them on a dime.

  • Sven||

    One of the first developing countries I visited many years ago was Brazil. The poverty you encounter in that country is hard to bear if you have the slightest sense of empathy in you. What I found extremely curious was the amount of advertising I saw for private education. Living in New York City now, it looks very similar around here, with most Subway cars plastered with advertising for more or less dubious educational institutions. I guess we are on a good way to becoming the next Brazil. Congratulations America!

  • Athletic Shoes||

    perfect

  • Seriously?||

    I think there is a good point to be made when questioning if EVERYONE needs to go to college.

    A higher education is supposed to means something, be worthy of something. However, if EVERYONE has a college degree, the worth of that degree is lowered greatly.

    I was raised to believe only those who worked hard and studied were offered the loans and the opportunities to obtain a higher education. Now, our high schools regularly graduate students who cannot read above an 8th grade level, and don't even get me started on the horrific status of a the average high school student's math skills.

    No. I want college students to earn it, and if that means some are not good enough, smart enough, or mature enough to get it...too bad.

  • شات بنات مصر||

    wat

  • شات بنات مصر||

    fngjhk khjglf

  • قبلة الوداع||

    ThaNk U

  • CashAdvancesUS||

    Student loan debt is a serious problem for American economy.And it's easy to understand why student loans are so popular-study now, get a degree and pay later.The tuition is high and proceeds getting higher that's why for young people whose parents haven't saved money for their higher education taking out a student loan is the only option of getting education.But lots of student has problems with paying off their student loans and getting a job after graduation.Student loan debt is even more than credit card debt.We can see a really weak job market and I think this the most important part of the problem.There should be more jobs available, and then it it will be easier to make student loan debt not that huge.

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