Reason Magazine
- reason.com
- reason.tv
- reason.org
- Donate
- Site Search:
Reason on Facebook
Reason on Twitter
Reason on YouTube
Reason RSSGet Reason E-mail Updates!
Manage your Reason e-mail list subscriptionsadvertisements
Getting Serious About "Getting Serious"
Why immigration hawks can never get enough
I want to call la migra on my neighbors.
It's not just that I hate the other tenants in my building, or that I want to see some upfront constituent service from noted blackface authority Julie L. Myers, director of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.
It's not only that I think I might get better treatment from my prick landlord if several units in the building were forcibly emptied. I'm not even sure how well calling in a raid from ICE would work: I have good reason to believe that the only family in the building I like is out of status.
It's just nice to share the popular feeling of being personally burdened by the invasion across our southern border. My fellow supporters of unrestricted immigration, who spend all their time being chauffeured between undocumented-nanny-cleaned mansions and illegal-janitor-tended Ivory Towers, forget the degree to which immigration-restriction pressure is driven by a feeling of injustice, in particular by suspicions of condescension and neglect from aloof authorities. That people in power refuse to get serious about illegal immigration is the essential premise of all immigration foment. That feeling gels in a sense that even when public officials do get serious about illegal immigration, they're really winking at the audience. And public officials don't do a whole lot to correct that impression.
Here's Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff giving a recent assessment of his efforts to seal the U.S.-Mexico border: "To me, the most important thing we're doing at the border is showing the American people that if we make a judgment that we need to do something and we promise to do it, we'll do it."
If you're passionate about stopping illegal entry into the United States, it's hard not to see that statement as a condescension: Chertoff's stated concern isn't catching illegal immigrants at the border; it's showing the American people that he wants to catch illegal immigrants at the border.
Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) specializes in the language of convincing voters and understanding their concerns. If, as is statistically likely, you augment your opposition to immigration with opposition to free trade, these clumsy attempts to validate your feelings can seem insultingly false: Who is able to believe Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-N.Y.) really opposes NAFTA when she's swilling down Canadian whiskey?
Sure, you could argue that restrictionists deserve no better. After all, when you go to a doctor for an imaginary malady, you should expect to be treated with a placebo.
But not all the complaints are as petty as my beef with my neighbors. In Los Angeles, the March murder of 17-year-old high school football star Jamiel Shaw has opened an off-topic but revealing controversy over a Los Angeles Police Department rule governing how officers are supposed to deal with illegal immigrants.
Pedro Espinoza, Shaw's accused killer, is an illegal immigrant who was released from county jail shortly before the murder, despite procedures that were supposed to have him referred to federal authorities and (presumably) deported. For various reasons (among them, that Espinoza was arrested by Culver City cops), the case doesn't bear on the LAPD's "Special Order 40," which was promulgated in 1979 by then-chief Daryl Gates and advises cops not to initiate inquiries about immigration status in most cases. But that hasn't stopped a fiery debate on the rule. That debate isn't strictly logic-based, but it expresses a general sense that local authorities don't want to bring any power to bear on crooks who flout their indifference to the laws of the land—and a detailed look at procedures suggests there is some validity in that view.
LAPD Chief William Bratton may be the most politically astute cop on the planet, but with his accurate, dismissive comments about the controversy, he's playing into the hawks' sense that nobody takes their concerns seriously. If you're that way inclined, you can draw a pretty compelling picture of a city where officialdom fiddles while illegals murder Stanford-hopeful athletes, slaughter interesting filmmakers, and ethnically cleanse the local black population. That kind of argument by anecdote is always cheap, but in this case it has a special piquancy. It's in the nature of all immigration to create concentrated costs and distributed benefits, and if you're the person who got beaten up by pandilleros or sent home from an overcrowded emergency room, you enjoy extra credibility on this issue.
Some immigration hawks really are driven by an honest sense of law and order, and fear of crime is particularly susceptible to anecdotal support (except when crime-rate statistics overwhelmingly argue against that fear, which, in L.A., they don't). It's an interesting paradox. Nearly all trends are going the way the restrictionists want. Some researchers say that border crossings peaked back in 2000. In any case, the current economy stinks, dampening the attraction of the U.S. for prospective border jumpers. Tougher enforcement has made the border quieter, while even professional immigration hawks applaud the superior "tone" of a nation with fewer migrants. In L.A., it's likely that Special Order 40 will be modified, possibly in ways that would allow cops to use gang members' illegal immigration status against them.
Yet the rhetoric about immigration remains as passionate and hysterical as ever. And so government officials respond to the hysteria, but since they know in their hearts that the immigration crisis is a solution in search of a problem, they do so with a vain, affected quality that reveals the very condescension restrictionists find so infuriating.
In the end, immigration hawks will never be happy because what they really want is somebody to say "I feel your pain"—and mean it.
Tim Cavanaugh is opinion Web editor at The Los Angeles Times.
Naga Sadow|4.23.08 @ 12:05PM|#
No one takes their concerns seriously because the immigration crisis is largely about the now happening cultural shift.
Darn it|4.23.08 @ 12:20PM|#
I was really hoping for a sequel to this but I guess everyone's busy with the Yakov Smirnoff thread.
The Democratic Republican|4.23.08 @ 12:27PM|#
So...central American gangs taking over Los Angeles are just
figments of white hillbilly imaginations?
'Cause I could've sworn that there are parts of LA and other cities
that resemble Mogadishu.
Episiarch|4.23.08 @ 12:30PM|#
So...central American gangs taking over Los Angeles are just
figments of white hillbilly imaginations?
Legalize drugs, gambling, and prostitution and the gangs will cease
to be a problem shortly.
The Democratic Republican|4.23.08 @ 12:34PM|#
Maybe -- but that doesn't change the racial nature of some of this gang warfare. It also doesn't change the fact that those things, one day, will happen in Libertopia. But this is the present. And in the present and future, I am interested in knowing who is in the country and why they are here.
Naga Sadow|4.23.08 @ 12:36PM|#
Gangs are taking over LA? Really? Cause I'll be
vacationing there in May. Better brush up on my slang and gang
signs.
Unwashed Mexican Hordes|4.23.08 @ 12:38PM|#
@ The Democratic Republican
We are here to take your low-paying jobs and your women!
Delicious, depraved white women!
That, and, frankly, Mexico sucks.
The Democratic Republican|4.23.08 @ 12:40PM|#
hahaha...in case some of you haven't left suburbia in a while,
there are these things called "inner cities" that in some places
look like "war zones."
Naga: No, they're not taking the whole city. Just the parts you
won't be visiting on your vacation.
The Democratic Republican|4.23.08 @ 12:41PM|#
@UMH:
That works for me. Just wanted to know. Be sure to bring some of
the beautiful ladies from south of the border along.
Naga Sadow|4.23.08 @ 12:44PM|#
Dem Repub,
Thank you, but I'm still gonna work on my street cred, might get
stuck in a part where I'll have to excape on foot. Also, most parts
of New Orleans are a war zone and I get along just fine when I
visit.
|4.23.08 @ 1:15PM|#
Sure, you could argue that restrictionists deserve no
better. After all, when you go to a doctor for an imaginary malady,
you should expect to be treated with a placebo.
Ooh. That's a good one.
I'm totally going to steal that.
|4.23.08 @ 1:27PM|#
Libertarians need to be more serious on the immigration issue. I bet that few Reason-readers are working class folks without higher education who are pushed out of what could be family wage paying jobs b/c employers hire cheap illegal labor. Illegal labor drives down the wages and reduces the working condition for downscale American workers. If they don't like working 12 hour days with poor benefits at minimum wage employers will find a Mexican, Salvadoran, or someone else who will.
|4.23.08 @ 1:35PM|#
Since the mechanization of labor has an order of magnitude greater effect than immigration on pushing downscale American workers out of jobs, should libertarians get more serious on the automation issue too?
|4.23.08 @ 1:45PM|#
I think general air of lawlessness that surrounds illegal
immigrants bothers a lot of people. Not only do they enter the
country illegally but they break labor laws, housing law and other
laws such as auto liability.
Texas has a long history of accepting illegals and probably has the
lowest animosity towards illegals of any border state. Illegal
immigrations has never been a major issue. Yet recently sentiment
has been growing and I've noticed it among well educated liberal
types who normally don't evince such feelings. Mostly, I think it
has to do with the feeling that illegals can break laws, even
commit overt crimes and then escape responsibility by returning to
Mexico. In one workgroup of a dozen individuals that I know, 3
suffered auto accidents in which the other driver was uninsured,
spoke spanish and disappeared after the accident. Just about
everyone regardless of income or education seem to know first hand
of one or more stories such as these.
I think a pervasive environment of general lawlessness is growing
up around illegals as a result of an accumulation of such
anecdotes. People don't trust those they can't hold responsible and
illegals are looking more and more like that kind of people.
|4.23.08 @ 1:53PM|#
An entire thread on an article dealing with IllegalImmigration,
and Lonewacko hasn't shown up yet?
I say, that boy's almost as off his game as he is off his
rocker.
|4.23.08 @ 1:53PM|#
People don't trust those they can't hold responsible and
illegals are looking more and more like that kind of
people.
More to the point, increasingly egregious government legislation
and enforcement requires illegals to become more and more
like that kind of people.
The more laws placed explicitly against illegal immigrants, the
more laws they will break. It's not as though they are behaving any
differently than before the new laws were passed. O, for a return
to the days when no one cared whether a resident was legal or
illegal until he -- you know -- actually did something wrong.
shminky|4.23.08 @ 1:59PM|#
Wow, a thread in which the open borders advocates are outnumbered. I'm impressed.
|4.23.08 @ 2:03PM|#
I bet that few Reason-readers are working class folks without higher education who are pushed out of what could be family wage paying jobs b/c employers hire cheap illegal labor. Illegal labor drives down the wages and reduces the working condition for downscale American workers. If they don't like working 12 hour days with poor benefits at minimum wage employers will find a Mexican, Salvadoran, or someone else who will.
If Mexicans were not allowed to pick oranges for your orange juice,
those jobs wouldn't go to well-paid Americans - Because oranges
picked by well-paid Americans would cost $100 a pound, and none of
us would be able to afford oranges in that case.
If Mexicans were not allowed to mow our laws, those jobs wouldn't
go to well-paid Americans, because I couldn't afford to pay that
sort of wage to have my lawn mowed - I would just do it
myself.
There are plenty of jobs that just aren't viable if you have to pay
a lot of money for labor. Either the jobs will be done by Mexicans,
or they will be done by robots, or they won't be done.
Into the Delorean|4.23.08 @ 2:11PM|#
DWA | April 23, 1888, 1:27pm | #
If good white christian men don't like working 12 hour days with
poor benefits at minimum wage employers will find a Irish, Polack,
Chink, or Negro who will.
Damn the flux capacitor shorte|4.23.08 @ 2:13PM|#
..and I hit submit rather than preview. Crapped it up completely
|4.23.08 @ 2:13PM|#
Mike P,
More to the point, increasingly egregious government
legislation and enforcement requires illegals to become more and
more like that kind of people.
That is true but a more fundamental problem arises from illegals
not being wired into the identity system. A citizen has a concrete
identity and another citizen can track them down and sue them if
they do something that injures the other. With illegals, we really
do not have that option.
Like I said, mundane things like fender benders are becoming a
political sore spot. It is increasingly common for people to have a
wreck and find out that (1) the driver is uninsured (2) the license
is fake, (3) the car isn't registered or inspected and (4) the
driver is in the wind and can't be tracked down.
Even without a surfeit of invasive laws we would still need to be
able to identify one another and still hold people accountable for
their actions.
|4.23.08 @ 2:23PM|#
Even without a surfeit of invasive laws we would still need
to be able to identify one another and still hold people
accountable for their actions.
Agreed.
So why do proposals to offer drivers licenses regardless of
residency status meet which such venomous opposition?
|4.23.08 @ 2:34PM|#
in case some of you haven't left suburbia in a while, there
are these things called "inner cities" that in some places look
like "war zones."
How patently absurd. I went from the "inner city" to an
actual war zone, and they don't even merit
comparison.
But you can feel free to snipe at us "insulated whites in the
'burbs", even though you're talking out of your ass when you do
so.
|4.23.08 @ 2:43PM|#
It is increasingly common for people to have a wreck and
find out that (1) the driver is uninsured (2) the license is fake,
(3) the car isn't registered or inspected and (4) the driver is in
the wind and can't be tracked down.
Do you have a link, study or traffic data to back this up, or is it
just increasingly common for people to complain about what
they heard third-hand from some idiot neighbor?
The "I got creamed by an uninsured illegal" was "I got creamed by
an uninsured welfare recipient (that is, black person" ten years
ago. It's the same old anecdote that's designed to say "It could
happen to YOU".
|4.23.08 @ 2:55PM|#
Like I said, mundane things like fender benders are becoming a political sore spot. It is increasingly common for people to have a wreck and find out that (1) the driver is uninsured (2) the license is fake, (3) the car isn't registered or inspected and (4) the driver is in the wind and can't be tracked down.
Why is it any easier for an illegal alien to have fake ID and an
uninsured unregistered car than a resident? Couldn't a
born-in-the-good-ol-U.S.A. 'merican have fake ID and an uninsured
unregistered car?
I could see how this sort of thing could be a problem, but I don't
understand how this has anything to do with illegal
immigrants?
Isn't this why most sensible places have no-fault insurance?
|4.23.08 @ 3:14PM|#
Here's an anecdote for you, Randian.
I've been creamed, twice, by white male American rednecks. Neither
had insurance. We need to do something about those fuckers.
|4.23.08 @ 3:15PM|#
Ayn Randian,
I don't have any studies to cite. I was just making an anecdotal
observation. If you think about it, however, how could possibly
measure such a phenomena? You can measure collisions from uninsured
drivers but if the drivers don't have an identity or flee the scene
how can you know if their illegal immigrants? I don't think any
states even track the immigration status of people involved in
accidents.
I was mostly just calling to attention a shift in attitude among
people who previously didn't notice illegal immigration. I'm
talking about liberal people who previously evinced no such
concerns. One of the people struck was hispanic. I think that when
such people start talking about the downside to illegal immigration
it serves as a potential bellwether for shifting attitudes.
Anonymous Roofing Contractor|4.23.08 @ 3:21PM|#
*I post here daily, but I feel it's best to comment on this
topic in anonymity.*
As a roofing contractor, my entire labor force consists of illegal
immigrants. I would like to dispel several false assumptions:
1) Illegal Immigrants work for minimum wage.
Far beyond true. In fact, I say the labor rate is more dictated by
a free market than legal employment. They start at $9-$10 an hour,
some as young as 17. I sure wish I was making $10 at 17. The
foreman can make as much as $17-$18 per hour.
This misconception comes from the idea that language barriers
prevent the employees from discovering what people make. This
notion is ridiculous. Immigrants live in communities with others of
their nationality and language. They talk to each other, and know
what the going rate for various jobs are.
If I were to offer minimum wage to an applicant, he'd laugh in my
face and walk across the street to the next guy.
Remember, people managed to make decent livings long before the
minimum wage. This has not changed simply because they opt out of
the system.
2) Hiring Mexicans because Americans won't do the work.
This is true. Mexicans look down on us (and about half the
countries in South America) as lazy fuck-offs. But it does say
something about our country, that people can turn down decent
paying jobs simply because they don't feel like doing it.
3) Miserable Working Conditions
Yes and no. This is due primarily to the sun in the south. If I
could turn it on "low" I would.
But aside from that, we provide water and ice, coolers, and just
like any other job, ample paid break time and lunch time. We even
provide dinner money and hotels for jobs that are out of
town.
Why you ask? Just like the wage, if we don't provide this stuff,
someone else will. It's called a free market.
4) Welfare Burden
This one is relatively untrue and derives from a lack of cultural
understanding. Now granted, there are some illegals who've figured
out the system and gotten on welfare.
But the vast majority do not. They are here to work to support a
family back home, and most people in the Mexican community have too
much pride to accept such handouts. That may sound like B.S. to
some, but it's true.
But in all reality, as you all know, the anti-immigration lobby has
no real case.
|4.23.08 @ 3:26PM|#
Not really on topic, but my wife (under whose name we made our Ron Paul donations) just got a solicitation from something called "The Nationalist Newletter," which seems to be just what you might imagine. I wonder where they got her name?
|4.23.08 @ 3:49PM|#
The USA a sovereign nation is facing a PERFECT STORM!
The combination of Criminal Employers privatizing their profits
while dumping the social costs on the nation at large and
Etnocentric and Foreign National Interests urging on a continued
Colonization and Creation of an Illegal Mexican Nation who "will
think Mexico First" whose "Hearts are in Mexico" and whose
President "Calderon,has Family here Illegally", has created a
Balkanization of the country ,"A Perfect Storm" and the biggest
challenge to the Future of the USA!!
|4.23.08 @ 3:53PM|#
Back in Gotham, Citizen Nothing says, "Not really on topic, but
my wife (under whose name we made our Ron Paul donations) just got
a solicitation from something called "The Nationalist Newletter,"
which seems to be just what you might imagine. I wonder where they
got her name?"
I certainly hope RP didn't sell his contributor list. I contributed
$250 to RP. Luckily, I haven't received anything like that -- even
via email.
Then again, maybe the turds don't have enough money to mail every
supporter their newsletter. You think crayons are cheap, but in big
enough quantities ....
|4.23.08 @ 3:59PM|#
Bob K, maybe it's just going out to four-figure contributers? (In my defense, I was probably high on goofballs at the time.)
|4.23.08 @ 4:00PM|#
The combination of Criminal Employers privatizing their profits while dumping the social costs on the nation at large and Etnocentric and Foreign National Interests urging on a continued Colonization and Creation of an Illegal Mexican Nation who "will think Mexico First" whose "Hearts are in Mexico" and whose President "Calderon,has Family here Illegally", has created a Balkanization of the country ,"A Perfect Storm" and the biggest challenge to the Future of the USA!!
And if we keep letting these damn Irish and Italians and Catholic
Germans into the good-ol-USA, by the year 1900 the U.S. is going to
be nothing more than a puppet state for the Vatican!!
That is why I am voting for the Know-Nothings in the next
election.
America First|4.23.08 @ 4:02PM|#
You say, "In the end, immigration hawks will never be happy
because what they really want is somebody to say "I feel your
pain"-and mean it."
By "Immigration Hawks" I assume you mean those concerned about the
welfare and sovereignty of our Country. Concerned about the free
medical, free schooling, and free money our government hands out at
the cost to you and I , the American Taxpayer. I want nothing from
others, let alone have them, "feel my pain", they should already be
feeling it. It affects each of us daily. Wait until your child
can't get into the best daycare or school because you make too much
to get assistance, but it's crawling with non-english speaking
children, or go to a hospital and wait for hours upon hours as the
illegal immigrants use it as a primary care office. I wish I was
like you and not have been touched by the criminal hand that so
easily takes from America. Maybe I would see your view.
You say "Yet the rhetoric about immigration remains as passionate
and hysterical as ever. And so government officials respond to the
hysteria…"
Two points, one the definition of rhetoric, "Rhetoric is the art of
harnessing reason, emotions and authority, through language, with a
view to persuade an audience and, by persuading, to convince this
audience to act." In that case, harnessing reason, through
language, to convince the audience to act, is exactly what we are
doing. Harnessing Reason. If you don't see the mass act of illegal
immigration as a problem, at least economically, then I don't know
what planet you're on. Is it just illegal immigrants, no, the
system is broke and it needs to be fixed and this leads to my
second problem with your statement.
"And so government officials respond…" With what?!? A fence? A
fence does nothing. If they want to respond, they should stop the
hand outs, stop the free services, stop the reason for them coming
in droves, reform our welfare system, not only for illegals, but
for the rest of this country that feels they are entitled to suck
on the teet. If you illuminate the reason for them coming and
reform the laws to actually address the problem, you will solve a
large part of the problem.
Why is it that free thinkers, or those who offer real solutions to
real problems, are deemed crazy or, what did you call us again,
Immigration Hawks, by MSM and MS publications such as Reason. If
you want to throw around names, maybe you should call us "Abuse
Hawks" because that's what we're calling attention to, the abuse in
this country.
Don't damn me for trying, damn you for not trying at all.
|4.23.08 @ 4:02PM|#
I mean, obviously I was high on goofballs but I meant, oh well, you know what I meant.
|4.23.08 @ 4:04PM|#
Rex Rhino, I think Tom Tancredo actually made that argument the other day. Well, he was talking about Latin American Catholics, but same deal.
|4.23.08 @ 4:08PM|#
Bob Clark was killed by an illegal? No shit...
Before I clicked the link I thought you were talking about Theo van
Gogh.
|4.23.08 @ 4:18PM|#
If they want to respond, they should stop the hand outs,
stop the free services, stop the reason for them coming in droves,
reform our welfare system, not only for illegals, but for the rest
of this country that feels they are entitled to suck on the
teet.
I think you'll find little disagreement here on these proposals.
Note that a great deal of what you suggest was accomplished in the
welfare reform of 1996. I would say the big piece of welfare reform
remaining is to disqualify citizen children of immigrants from
government services that their parents don't qualify for.
If you illuminate the reason for them coming and reform the
laws to actually address the problem, you will solve a large part
of the problem.
And if they still come because, after all, they are not coming for
welfare, but for jobs ...then what?
Virgil|4.23.08 @ 4:29PM|#
"Don't damn me for trying, damn you for not trying at
all."
Can we just damn you for being an idiot and leave it at that?
And is there some unwritten rule that the nativists posting here
have to capitalize some high proportion of their nouns?
"Immigration Hawks"? "American Taxpayer"? "Criminal Employers"?
"Foreign National Interests"? At least the ones on this thread are
using their Space Bars, but the influence of LoneWacko is clearly
more pervasive among the Stupid and Gullible than previous
suspected.
America First|4.23.08 @ 4:55PM|#
Thanks for continuing the discussion. Without it, there really
is no hope for our country.
"stop the reason for them coming in droves" and "If you illuminate
the reason for them coming" was to imply jobs. America is to blame
here folks, don't get me wrong.
If I was a Mexican and someone said don't come over, but if you do
we'll give you a job, money, medical care, schooling, oh, and if
you have a child here, we'll call him/her an "anchor baby" and you
can stay...but don't come here.
Are you kidding me? I understand why they come. Employers must be
held accountable. If they hire an Illegal, they pay the punishment
and it needs to be steep.
So if there is no employment, no free services, no free schooling,
what's the reason for staying?
Mike P. if as you say "welfare reform of 1996" accomplished much of
what I had listed, then we need Welfare Reform 2008, because '96
hasn't seemed to work. I see it everyday, and don't get me wrong,
it's not just illegal immigrants abusing the system, it's everyone,
but if I'm forced to choose between a citizen or a non-citizen, to
take of, I'm going to choose one of our own.
And to answer your question Virgil, "Can we just damn you for being
an idiot and leave it at that?" Sure you can. That's your right.
While I'm on here discussing issues that affect us both, you're on
here calling me names.
Virgil|4.23.08 @ 5:17PM|#
"Wait until...the best daycare or school [is] crawling with
non-english speaking children...."
"I wish I was like you and not have been touched by the criminal
hand that so easily takes from America."
"If you don't see the mass act of illegal immigration as a problem,
at least economically, then I don't know what planet you're
on."
"Don't damn me for trying, damn you for not trying at all."
Yeah, you're sure trying hard to have a "discussion," America
First. Only your idea of a discussion involves shameless appeals to
emotion, a condescending dismissal of those who disagree with you
as completely detached from reality, and childish, dishonest
bumper-sticker statements like "damn you for not trying." Of course
what's completely missing from your "discussion" is the slightest
acknowledgement of the benefits that come from immigration,
including illegal immigration. But why have a fair, even-handed
discussion when you can blather on about how you've been "touched
by the criminal hand"?
"...if I'm forced to choose between a citizen or a non-citizen, to
take of, I'm going to choose one of our own."
You're sure as hell not one of my own, America First. I'd choose a
non-citizen over a citizen with your repugnant views any day of the
week. You're not really fooling anyone intelligent with your
nativist crap. Have a shitty day.
America First|4.23.08 @ 5:23PM|#
Once again, is it either name calling or violence that this site
promotes or is it constructive ideas and free thought.
"anonymous roofing contractor" has had the most impressive and
insightful comments to this whole thread. It's the other side
explaining their side. Obviously he is personally affected by this
and it's great to have a discussion.
I have spoken with numerous people affected by this topic
financially (contractors, restaurants, hospitality industry),
Mexicans, and my friends about the topic and while we can agree to
disagree on some subjects, we can also have a respectful
conversation.
This is my first comments on the Reason site and if this is the way
it is here than it most likely will be my last. If you want a
legitimate conversation I'm all for it, but if you're just going to
call me names I can get that from my wife. :)
|4.23.08 @ 5:28PM|#
Are you kidding me? I understand why they come. Employers
must be held accountable. If they hire an Illegal, they pay the
punishment and it needs to be steep.
I'll take that as your answer to my "...then what?" question.
if as you say "welfare reform of 1996" accomplished much of
what I had listed, then we need Welfare Reform 2008, because '96
hasn't seemed to work.
Aside from welfare tied to anchor babies, what individualized
welfare do illegal immigrants get?
|4.23.08 @ 5:35PM|#
look, AF, if you were here actually wanting a discussion, that
would be different. It's obvious from your passive-aggressive
"can't we all just talk?" whining that you're upset that we're not
all instantly jumping on the "anti-Mexican" bandwagon.
But, what would you expect when you come on these boards and insult
people out of the side of your mouth? And say things that sound
racist?:
I'm going to choose one of our own.
those children born here under the ancient doctrine of "jus soli"
ARE "our own", but that's not good enough for you, is it? You have
to call them "anchor babies"...why not just call them citizens?
It's the law of the land, and nativists like yourself seem to love
every citizenship law EXCEPT for that one.
Until you quit calling legal, birthright citizenship Americans
"anchor babies", you're going to sound like a racist and a
bigot.
Here's the crux. If you want to have a discussion, answer
this:
Employers must be held accountable. If they hire an Illegal,
they pay the punishment and it needs to be steep
Why is that, AF? WTF business is it of yours who hires whom? If
you're not being harmed, MYOB.
America First|4.23.08 @ 5:46PM|#
Mike
To name a few: Free or low cost medical services, free or low cost
public education and daycare, government subsidies on foods and
services all takes from the US taxpayer, and once again this is
abused by legal and non-legal individuals alike.
|4.23.08 @ 5:54PM|#
AF, recommend you familiarize yourself with Thomas Knapp's
identification of
Stockholm libertarians...you're probably not even a
libertarian, but I find it funny that you want free movement held
hostage because of government welfare programs.
Even funnier is that you admit that American citizens take
advantage of these programs, but you're only concerned with the
Mexicans who do. I shouldn't say "funny" because it's obvious what
your motivation is:
I have spoken with numerous people affected by this topic
financially (contractors, restaurants, hospitality industry),
Mexicans, and my friends about the
topic
have you talked to any Canadians about the subject? You make your
odious position all the more obvious by only focusing on ONE border
of the United States, and not the other.
|4.23.08 @ 5:56PM|#
Free or low cost medical services, free or low cost public
education and daycare, government subsidies on foods and
services
Okay, we have education -- forced by the government -- and
medical services -- again forced by the government. But
neither of these is individualized. They are not only paid for, but
required, for public goods reasons. But neither of these
is individualized: They are available to anyone of any status at
any time without proof of anything.
When I say "individualized welfare," I mean welfare one needs to
qualify for. You cite the wonderful catch-all "government subsidies
on foods and services." What exactly do you mean, and how do
illegal immigrants qualify for it?
America First|4.23.08 @ 6:10PM|#
There is no whining and if you don't like what I have to say or
don't agree that's your right. And a discussion, although you think
I'm not open for one, even though I ask for one, is the only way to
understand the other side. While I have my personal views am I not
open to discuss this topic. Why else would I be here?
As far as our latest citizens born of Mexican mothers here in our
country, do you know how many crossed the border to have their
children here in the US last year. CBS News with Katie Couric
reported over 300,000 Mexican mothers crossed the border to have
American citizens. Why? Why not be born in Mexico?
I'm not being harmed physically, even up front financially, due to
cheaper products, due to cheaper labor, but do we not have to pay
for these individuals as taxpayers. If they were here legally,
immigrated to this country, I would have no problem with them, they
might not cost me as much, but employers lure Mexicans here for
employment, and I understand why they come, but if you cut off the
reason for them coming here, would you not cease the
invasion.
I've not only talked to Canadians about this topic, but Mexicans,
Brazilians, Germans, Haitians, Irish, Greeks, and Italians about
these topics.
"you're only concerned with the Mexicans who do" If you read my
posts you'll see that this is an incorrect statement on your part.
I'm concerned about all of them, wouldn't you be? Aren't you?
Mike, but isint children born here by Mexican mother automatically
qualify them for these services. The baby and the mother get these
services. I know it's tied to the children and you're asking about
others, but to be honest, I don't know off the top of my head.
Maybe you can tell me, and if it's none, I'd appreciate that
knowledge as well.
I thought I'd post this as well, Ron Paul said once,
Illegal immigrants also place a tremendous strain on social
entitlement programs. Under a proposed totalization agreement with
Mexico, millions of illegal immigrants will qualify for Social
Security and other programs - programs that already threaten
financial ruin for America in the coming decades. Adding millions
of foreign citizens to the Social Security, Medicare, and
disability rolls will only hasten the inevitable day of
reckoning.
Economic considerations aside, we must address the cultural aspects
of immigration. The vast majority of Americans welcome immigrants
who want to come here, work hard, and build a better life. But we
rightfully expect immigrants to show a sincere desire to become
American citizens, speak English, and assimilate themselves
culturally. All federal government business should be conducted in
English. More importantly, we should expect immigrants to learn
about and respect our political and legal traditions, which are
rooted in liberty and constitutionally limited government.
|4.23.08 @ 6:23PM|#
but isint children born here by Mexican mother automatically
qualify them for these services.
Yes. Which is why I said above...
I would say the big piece of welfare reform remaining is to disqualify citizen children of immigrants from government services that their parents don't qualify for.
...and...
Aside from welfare tied to anchor babies, what individualized welfare do illegal immigrants get?
I know it's tied to the children and you're asking about
others, but to be honest, I don't know off the top of my
head.
It's none.
|4.23.08 @ 6:40PM|#
but employers lure Mexicans here for employment, and I
understand why they come, but if you cut off the reason for them
coming here, would you not cease the invasion.
Invasion? Do you really want to continue this conversation, or do
you want me to laugh you off the board?
The question to you is: WHY should I give a damn
about this faux invasion, when it's just poorer people
trying to capture the American dream? Why do you care so much?
You've just as much as admitted that it doesn't affect you.
300,000 Mexican mothers crossed the border to have American
citizens. Why? Why not be born in Mexico?
Because it's better to be an American, maybe? Like it or lump it,
jus soli is the law. Again, you only seemed concerned with
Mexicans who do this.
Another question, AF: Do you believe that I should be able to cross
state border(s) to live and work where you live? If so, why do you
feel that the line between Ohio and wherever you are, are somehow
less important than the one between the United States and
Mexico?
After all, different states have different cultures as well, and
I'm at a loss as to why you think there should be free movement of
peaceful people across state lines but not country borders.
Ron Paul said once
Ron Paul is wrong on immigration.
|4.23.08 @ 6:43PM|#
CBS News with Katie Couric reported over 300,000 Mexican
mothers crossed the border to have American citizens.
If I read my
source correctly, this is not the number who crossed the
border to have their children. This is the estimated total
number of children born to illegal immigrants.
Why? Why not be born in Mexico?
Bluntly, because one cannot move freely between the US and Mexico.
If one could, then illegal immigrants would be much more likely to
leave their family in Mexico and work seasonally, the way they used
to before the recent spate of immigration crackdowns.
Also, if parents knew their children could move freely between the
US and Mexico, they would be far less likely to feel the need to
anchor the children's citizenship in the US. They or their children
could move to the US if and when they wanted at some later time --
just as US citizens realize they don't need to rush to California
to have their children there since they or their children could go
live and work there at any time.
Kolohe|4.23.08 @ 7:12PM|#
Wait until your child can't get into the best daycare or
school because you make too much to get assistance, but it's
crawling with non-english speaking children,
I challenge you to come up with any elite institution (of any
variety - education, healthcare, golf course) in this country that
has more foreign nationals than US Citizens - or even a
statisically significant # greater than the 10% or so they make up
of the US population.
The only thing I can think of is maybe some organizations in Hawaii
which are Japanese only.
The other irony is in my second hand experience, most daycare
workers or other 'child-care professionals' were not born in the
US. You ever hear of an Au Pair?
America First|4.23.08 @ 7:21PM|#
"After all, different states have different cultures as well,
and I'm at a loss as to why you think there should be free movement
of peaceful people across state lines but not country
borders."
Who said anything about not crossing borders? I welcome anyone
traveling to come to the US, I'm talking about living somewhere,
living in another country, not moving to another state or City
within my own country,but becoming a burden of the state, living
not visiting, not on a VISA either.
I ask you to review Mexico's policy on immigration. Is that fair?
Not to PC America's standards, but it's their law and visitors and
citizens are expected to abide those laws. Why is it that when it
comes to America, we think laws can be bent or broken? What's good
for the goose is good for the gander, right? I would love to have
Mexico's immigration laws, at least there enforced.
So are you for open borders, a North America Union between Canada,
Mexico, and the USA?
"
Bluntly, because one cannot move freely between the US and
Mexico."
Why should you want to move freely, and by freely I think you mean
daily. Because you can move freely. If I want to vacation in
Mexico, can I not move freely down there. What need do Mexicans or
Canadians not get from their own country that drives them to the US
illegally? What makes them come here to live? And don't say jobs,
can't Mexico afford them with jobs? If not, why not?
And why do they have to "anchor" (you're words) their children in
the first place. Is Mexico so bad that they need to come
here?
Guys, I love Mexicans. This is not about Mexicans, hell it's not a
bout race, it's about economics and I can't force it on you nor
will I. I have a very close friend who is Mexican and he feels the
same way as I do and quite frankly is even more adamant than me
about this issue.
Seriously now, either you don't mind paying taxes for illegal
immigrants and legal citizens and their welfare and government
assisted programs, you haven't personally been effected yet, or you
think it's America's job to support the world, outside of that I
would like you to explain to me why it is, in your opinion, that we
open the borders and allow for this mass migration north, all the
while taking care of some and subsidizing others? Do you think we
can afford it?
|4.23.08 @ 7:43PM|#
What makes them come here to live?
Jobs.
And don't say jobs
Damn.
Okay... Jobs that pay significantly better than those in their home
country.
Seriously now, either you don't mind paying taxes for illegal
immigrants and legal citizens and their welfare and government
assisted programs, you haven't personally been effected yet, or you
think it's America's job to support the world,
...or...
1. you recognize the theory, empiricism, and history that say that,
so long as they pay their own way, immigrants can only help the
economy they immigrate into, or
2. you actually include the staggering increase in the standard of
living of immigrants in your moral calculations, or
3. you actually believe that individuals have the same inalienable
rights regardless of which side of a line on a map they were born,
or
All of the above.
America First|4.23.08 @ 7:46PM|#
Kolohe,
"I challenge you to come up with any elite institution"
Who said anything about it having to be elite? If your child can't
get into a school period because a certain amount of minorities
have to fill a quota but it's your neighborhood school, but they
want to bus your child to a lesser school. Do you think that's
fair? I know this is a larger issue than illegal migration, but is
it fair to bus my child, hell to bus their child?
And yes, there is a daycare here that costs $2000 a month (elite by
my standards) and while I can't afford it, when we visited, they
informed us that they took government subsidies, (this was not a
private school) and while we were there, numerous Mexicans who did
not speak English (I know this because the greeter of the school
tried to speak with them)came in. I asked about them and the lady
at the counter informed me that the children were, citizens born to
Mexican women (that's for you Ayn) and on subsidies. Was that smart
on her part to divulge that information, probably not, did she do
it because of my race, maybe so, but that's on her, not me.
I don't care if the childcare worker isn't American by birth. If
they are here legally or through a program as you suggest, that's
fine by me. I'm not a racist, a bigot, or an elitist, or a nativist
as the board like to call me.
You see my problem with this daycare thing is that I went to
college, got a masters, then got a good job, make good money, but
yet I can't take my child to the school of my choice, I can't
afford it, and that part is fine, but when I asked why the school
charges so much more than others, I'm told it's to offset the
government assistance programs. Is that fair? To some on this board
yes, to me no?
Wait to it personally effects you. That's all I'm saying.
America First|4.23.08 @ 8:01PM|#
1. you recognize the theory, empiricism, and history that
say that, so long as they pay their own way, immigrants can only
help the economy they immigrate into, or
Immigrants help!!! They pay their own way. I know this and welcome
them, but illegal immigrants is what we are talking about , while
they help some for some, they don't always pay their own way, and
this hurts the middle class and lower class
2. you actually include the staggering increase in the standard
of living of immigrants in your moral calculations, or
Great for the immigrant, I hope they suceed, they only make us
better. Again, we're talking about illegal immigrants.
3. you actually believe that individuals have the same
inalienable rights regardless of which side of a line on a map they
were born
Of course they have inalienable rights and they should be respected
at all costs, and they can travel, they can move, they can apply
for VISAS, worker programs, but can I go live in Mexico, just walk
across the border and get a job, live, and get government
assistance. The answer is no, why can't I?
Why shouldn't I care about these issues because it effects everyone
in this country?
What makes them come here to live?
Jobs.
And don't say jobs
Damn.
Okay... Jobs that pay significantly better than those in their home
country.
Very funny by the way. But why doesn't their home country provide
these jobs? And if we enforced regulations on current employers
here, would they still come?
|4.23.08 @ 8:22PM|#
illegal immigrants is what we are talking about , while they
help some for some, they don't always pay their own way, and this
hurts the middle class and lower class
Then argue to change the law so they pay their own way! We have
already established that they don't receive welfare except through
their citizen children. Put those children on the welfare schedule
of their parents, and you're pretty much done.
Great for the immigrant, I hope they suceed, they only make us
better. Again, we're talking about illegal immigrants.
Whether the immigrant has or does not have a piece of paper from
the government does not impact point #2. In fact, it does not
impact any of the three points.
Of course they have inalienable rights and they should be
respected at all costs
One of those inalienable rights is the right to travel freely
without being detained and transported against one's will. Another
is the right to own property or reside wherever one can arrange
mutually beneficial arrangement. A third is the right to work where
one can arrange suitable employment.
If those rights should be respected "at all costs," you would be
arguing as strongly as those on the free migration side that
immigration in general should not be illegal.
can I go live in Mexico, just walk across the border and get a
job, live, and get government assistance. The answer is no, why
can't I?
(Excepting the government assistance part...) Because Mexico, like
the US, is a government that does not perfectly perform its
principal purpose: to secure the inalienable rights of
individuals.
Kolohe|4.23.08 @ 9:05PM|#
America First | April 23, 2008, 7:46pm | #
"Who said anything about it having to be elite?"
America First | April 23, 2008, 4:02pm | #
Wait until your child can't get into the best daycare or school
because you make too much to get assistance, but it's crawling with
non-english speaking children,
Something that is 'the best' is, by definition, elite.
America First|4.23.08 @ 9:13PM|#
Then the school I mention is elite. Too me elite is maybe a nationally known school, not a the best school in town.
America First|4.23.08 @ 9:14PM|#
You still didn't answer the questions, other than point out that your definition and my definition of elite is different.
America First|4.23.08 @ 9:20PM|#
Mike,
While we can agree to disagree I've enjoyed our conversation.
Inalienable rights are deserved. The right to live, with liberty,
freedom of choice, freedom to travel, freedom to exist as you see
fit, as long as it doesn't effect or impose on anyone else,
tramping on their own inalienable rights.
It seems that we have been trampled on, and made to feel guilty for
not wanting to be trampled on, and I'm tired of it.
When it's equal all the way around for everyone in this country,
where my neighbor takes care of himself and I myself, maybe I'll
concede, but until then I'll fight for law change and for the
rights of fellow Americans...it's the only action that we can
do.
I hope that others that may read this take something away from the
conversation. People are too afraid to discuss these topics and
allow themselves to see or at least hear the other side.
America First in my eyes.
Kolohe|4.23.08 @ 9:27PM|#
America First | April 23, 2008, 8:01pm | #
Great for the immigrant, I hope they suceed, they only make us
better. Again, we're talking about illegal immigrants.
America First | April 23, 2008, 7:46pm | #
If your child can't get into a school period because a certain
amount of minorities have to fill a quota but it's your
neighborhood school, but they want to bus your child to a lesser
school.
|4.24.08 @ 2:38AM|#
Inalienable rights are deserved.
No, they aren't. you're entitled to them as a human being. I don't
know what entity you think should "test" for the "deservedness" of
rights, but I'm terrified to find out.
When it's equal all the way around for everyone in this
country, ...maybe I'll concede
Stockholmism...color me shocked.
America First|4.24.08 @ 7:39AM|#
Keep refusing to answer the questions and taking my comments out
of context.
Are not the rights, which are entitled when born,. I thought that
was implied, common sense you know. I didn't know things had to be
spelled out here, and are they not deserved. Just because you have
them, can a country not allow you to have them? Sure they can. Look
around the world. So yes they are also deserved.
And you know what I meant about "equality" each paying their own
way, not me, not the government, and not the rest of the hard
working Americans that pay taxes supporting this group through our
government regulated taxes. When each man is held accountable for
their own way. Trust me, it's not going to happen. That was sarcasm
my friend, I didn't know I had to explain that either.
Colored me shocked sir, with your lack, once again of a discussion,
of not answering my questions, as I have yours, and of scraping
together two out of context quotes to try and make some kind of
argument. Talk about one sided. I hope one day you can drop that
elicit attitude and come down so the rest of us can talk about
issues that plague this country.
Thank you for "the discussion". It's obvious what the motives are
here. Enjoy your day.
America First and goodnight.
JohnD|4.24.08 @ 8:07AM|#
Reading some of the ridiculous posts on this site (defending
illegals) just re-enforces my opinion that most Libratarians are
elitist morons.
BTW, If you think people have inalienable rights than your have led
a sheltered life. Try visiting a few non Eurpoean countries.
|4.24.08 @ 10:33AM|#
Are not the rights, which are entitled when born,. I thought
that was implied, common sense you know. I didn't know things had
to be spelled out here, and are they not deserved. Just because you
have them, can a country not allow you to have them? Sure they can.
Look around the world. So yes they are also deserved.
You may not realize it, but you are engaged in a normative
discussion: How should government behave, not how
does government behave. Telling us that other countries
don't protect individual rights is hardly an argument for whether
the US should.
But it really is unclear what you mean by "inalienable rights are
deserved."
|4.24.08 @ 10:36AM|#
Reading some of the ridiculous posts on this site (defending
illegals) just re-enforces my opinion that most Libratarians are
elitist morons.
Libertarian elitist morons founded the country that you are so busy
defending against pretended invasions.
abu hamza|4.29.08 @ 5:01PM|#
please retire the "but Americans won't work those jobs, anyway"
canard or better off just stick it up your ass b/c it's totally a
lie from the chamber of commerce. Happy Farms was busted for hiring
undocumented workers and paid a $590,000 civil penalty and fine in
2007 (this is in Franklin County, Missouri). Documents revealed by
ICE's raid included over fifty job applications received by the
company BY AMERICAN CITIZENS. Americans were willing to pick
apples. The apple picking company just wasn't willing to hire them,
because they would insist that worker safety laws were followed,
they wouldn't tolerate sexual harassment, they wouldn't be cowtowed
into not reporting a work comp claim, etc. However, out of status
workers WOULD put pu with such things. Black wages have been
dessimated by mexican workers.
If one day we all saw yellow buses full of illegal immigrants
heading south, you know what we'd see back at home? help wanted
signs. and jobs with living wages, and benefits.
Please spare me the "breaking up families" whine. Since when has
the gov't gave a shit about breaking up families? People who go to
prison for drugs lose their kids every day in every state. Yeah,
you and your family are in a bad way now that Dad's been deported,
but didn't dad kind of know that was coming some day, yet he took
the risk? and keep the family in tact by all moving to Mexico,
isn't that an option?
|5.6.08 @ 4:37PM|#
As a "restrictionist" who wants something done about illegal
immigration , I am offended by Bush , Chertoff , The LA Times ,
etc...
We have lost the country already and you open borders advocates are
not smart enough to see it.
1 out of 4 children under age 5 are Hispanic.
30 % of the welfare receipients in the U.S. are in California. Does
this bear any connection to having 3 to 4 million illegal aliens ,
mostly Hispanic , in California?
According to the UCLA Chicano center :
1.) 6% of 1st generation Mexicans vote Republican.
2.) 17% of "3rd" generation Mexicans vote for Republicans.
So, if there are 7 million illegal alien Mexicans in the U.S. , the
Democrats are going to get 6.5 million new voters if there is
another amnesty.
Don't tell me that we don't have a right to be concerned about all
of these issues.
Also, it doesn't matter if illegal aliens commit more or less crime
than natives.
What matter is that they are committing "incremental " crime that
would not exist if they weren't here.
Jamiel Shaw would almost surely be alive today if the police were
serious about illegal immigration.
You open borders people have blood on your hands because you accept
, condone , rationalize , and facilitate illegal immigration in
order to improve your political fortunes.
|5.7.08 @ 12:04AM|#
No I don't think white workers will take back breaking jobs for
min. wage.
O.K. say you do bring up the pay, how much do you thing those green
veggies will cost you ?
Leave a Comment
More Articles by Tim Cavanaugh
- Hollywood Comrades, Tim Cavanaugh, October 30, 2009
- Inflation and You: Partners in freedom, Tim Cavanaugh, October 1, 2009
- The Debtorship Society, Tim Cavanaugh, September 21, 2009
Related Articles (Immigration)
- Strangers in a Strange Land, Peter Suderman, August 14, 2009
- Nativist International, Jeff Winkler, August 3, 2009
- The El Paso Miracle, Radley Balko, July 6, 2009
- I.T. Go Home, Brian Doherty, May 29, 2009
- Solving the Immigration Problem—Once and For All, Ross Levatter, May 14, 2009
Site comments/questions:
Media Inquiries and Reprint Permissions:
(310) 367-6109
Editorial & Production Offices:
3415 S. Sepulveda Blvd.
Suite 400
Los Angeles, CA 90034
(310) 391-2245