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Set Your TiVos to "Stun"

At some time maybe around 5:00 or 5:30 p.m. EDT today, I'm scheduled to make an appearance on CNN talking about Ron Paul's old newsletters. It's an edited piece, not a panel bull session, so my 15 minutes will probably end up as 30 seconds max. UPDATE: Or maybe not! If it ever runs, please someone drop a line.

Speaking of newsletters, former reason editor Virginia Postrel had this to say today:

Thanks to The New Republic, libertarians who weren't paying attention in the 1990s, don't read Texas Monthly, and didn't do their candidate research have now discovered that Ron Paul said--or, more likely, allowed to be said in his name (probably by Lew Rockwell)--nasty things in his newsletters. Much reaction can be found at Hit & Run, as well as Andrew Sullivan's blog and The Volokh Conspiracy. The disclosures are not news to me, nor is the Paul campaign's dismissive reaction a surprise. When you give your political heart to a guy who spends so much time worrying about international bankers, you're not going to get a tolerant cosmopolitan.

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Comments to "Set Your TiVos to "Stun"":

drawnasunder | January 9, 2008, 3:38pm | #

If I'm a libertarian, and even after this Ron Paul mess (which disappoints me), I STILL don't think it means I just fell off a turnip truck, does that mean I am even dumber than Virginia thinks I am?

javier | January 9, 2008, 3:41pm | #

shit. I guess we can try it again in about eight - twelve years, given the inflationary recession ahead. let's find someone squeeky f***ing clean. at the least maybe he has encouraged some like minded (policy wise, not on race) people to get involve and maybe even run in the future.

K. | January 9, 2008, 3:45pm | #

What's the thing about Lee Rockwell? Anybody know if he has some weird positions?

Brandybuck | January 9, 2008, 3:46pm | #

"Tolerant cosmopolitan"? What the frak does that have to do with libertarianism?

drawnasunder | January 9, 2008, 3:48pm | #

"Tolerant cosmopolitan"? What the frak does that have to do with libertarianism?

To some, it has everything to do with libertarianism.

To some others, not so much. (They're the problem....)

TDL | January 9, 2008, 3:49pm | #

I don't understand the last sentence in the Ms. Postrel's quote. Why shouldn't we be worried about bankers who have a disproportionate amount of power? Also, me knowing a couple of dozen bankers automatically makes more cosmopolitan? Or is the implication of this sentence that only city folk should only be allowed into the Libertarian movement?

Regards,
TDL

Jim Lesczynski | January 9, 2008, 3:54pm | #

I believe the implication is that "international bankers" is a code word for "Jews".

Glad I could help | January 9, 2008, 3:56pm | #

For those with low reading skills, "tolerant cosmopolitan" = urban bullshitter.

Avi | January 9, 2008, 3:58pm | #

It's good to finally here some libertarians speak out against Paul. While he certainly has some positive positions (smaller government supporter and all), he's ultimately doomed to do more harm than good. Libertarianism is tarred with a false association with Lyndon LaRouche. A real association with Paul and his repulsive and racist views (and it doesn't matter if he didn't author the pieces in the newsletter -- that he allowed it in his name is bad enough) is far more damaging.

Martin | January 9, 2008, 4:01pm | #

Postrel of course supported the Iraq war. I guess that is all we need to know what this 'tolerant cosmopolitanism' amounts to.

These 'beltway' libertarians just need to admit that they are really neocons.

TLB | January 9, 2008, 4:05pm | #

Of course, smearing in code would be something I'd expect Reason to oppose, but I guess I'm wrong.

And, I keep coming back to this interview with the TNR author, specifically the first part where he puts a happy face on some interesting groups:

youtube.com/watch?v=Whqtv9D9g-Y

Not to get all conspiracy theory and all, but see also what the author says about DR in the article, and see his advocate article, and see also this:

youtube.com/watch?v=wo5qNtflqV0

de stijl | January 9, 2008, 4:06pm | #

What's the thing about Rockwell? Anybody know if he has some weird positions?

He always was pretty paranoid.

twv | January 9, 2008, 4:08pm | #

Yes, many who complain about "international bankers" are, indeed, targeting Jews, and the horror of the "international Jewish Conspiracy." I have heard this many a time from those on the self-described "partiot" end of the right-wing spectrum, and from a few people tangential to libertarianism. These people generally despise libertarians for being so soft on Jews and ignorant of "what's really going on." I was always thankful for their willingness to distance themselves from us.

Alas, it was to them that Murray Rothbard and Lew Rockwell were trying to appeal (in part) in their Paleo Turn, right after the first Ron Paul fiasco of 1988. Even before then they had begun using terms like "bankster" to appeal to the far right cranks.

Remember, the Paleo Turn was an attempt to egg on hate towards the underclass as part of a class war that would (golly gee whiz, really?) overthrow the state.

I thought then and think now that libertarianism is not a philosophy of hate, and can't succeed as such. So I was not surprised by the failure of the Paleo Turn, or by the recent brouhaha over the Ron Paul newsletters.

Read them. You can see that they are the Paleolibertarian movement in Beta version. The general level of nastiness there is preparation for the general level of nastiness that bubbled forth amongs the paleos in the '90s. This didn't go very far, of course. But it was ugly, it was pretty obvious, and it is a sad part of the history not only of Ron Paul, but also of the late Murray Rothbard, who sullied himself in hatemongering before he died.

Cosmopolitans accept differences, and don't mire themselves in talking about the badnesses of a few cultural groups. They stick to principles, are mostly indifferent to the foibles of others, and, in so doing, let civilization keep rumbling along.

The Paleo Turn was a failed attempt to try revolution using an anti-cosmopolitan mindset. It was doomed from the start.

John | January 9, 2008, 4:08pm | #

Libertarianism might want to think long and hard before it weds itself to goofball Austrian Gold Standard economics. There is nothing necessarily anti-freedom about a floating currency. Further, on the list of economic sins of the current government, the existence of the FED and the lack of a gold standard, even if you buy all that loopy stuff is like 1 millionth on the list. How about worrying about reducing taxes and regulation and making the federal government something less than 18% of the GNP before we get ambitious and shut down the FED? If the Libertarians would run a candidate who said,

1. I am going to lower your taxes
2. I am going to stop the government from telling you how to live
3. I am going to government spending so that every year it is a smaller percentage of GDP than the year before
4. I am going get the federal government out of as many sectors of the economy as I possibly can
5. I am going to stop wasting time and money throwing people in jail over drugs.

And dropped all the dopey gold standard crap, they might get somewhere.

Thomas Paine's Goiter | January 9, 2008, 4:09pm | #

When I was young, I thought gin was awful. Now I don't.

Things change.

not surprised | January 9, 2008, 4:12pm | #

Ron Paul isn't so much a libertarian as a cranky old man. His political opinions seem to dovetail perfectly with everybody's 70-year-old uncle: get the gubmint off my back, those bankers just must be screwing me, and why the hell should I have to push 1 for English?

de stijl | January 9, 2008, 4:12pm | #

"Tolerant cosmopolitan"? What the frak does that have to do with libertarianism?

Think of it as Cato Institute vs. Mountain Dougie.

Guy Montag | January 9, 2008, 4:12pm | #

Just a wild guess here, but for the amount of gold the federal government actually holds wouldn't converting all of the current wealth of the country into so-called 'gold backed currency' make each dollar worth, maybe, about one atom of gold?

SVF | January 9, 2008, 4:12pm | #

I miss Harry Browne... (sigh)

spur | January 9, 2008, 4:13pm | #

There has always been a cultural divide amoung libertarians just as there is amoung the left, liberals and conservatives -- however the cultural divide doesn't necessarily tell you what positions people hold, just who you are more likely to hang out with -- I'd throw myself into the "cosmo lib" side of the argument but have always been anti-war and found Postrel to be rather repugnant when talking about anything other than libertarian advances in type font empowerment for door to door maids and what not. And I still gladly support Ron Paul and will vote for the guy but find Lew Rockwell and most his site to be backwards, paranoid and not serving the advancement of liberty.

Robert | January 9, 2008, 4:14pm | #

But Jim, "cosmopolitan" is another code word for "Jew"!

I don't know why the furor is worse now on Hit & Run than when it was brought up about 7 months ago. Is it going to increase in virulence every time another publication rehashes it, as seems to be the case when a cold virus is passaged thru young children?

Martin | January 9, 2008, 4:14pm | #

Pat Robertson backs Giuliani. Robertson famously wrote a book claiming that the Illuminati and Freemasons rule the world. Have we heard any outrage cosmopolitan denounce Rudy as a Nazi for this? Of course not! Rudy is an establishment candidate. He can get away with whatever he likes.

'Cosmopolitans accept differences, and don't mire themselves in talking about the badnesses of a few cultural groups. '

In Virginia Postrel's case too, they like preemptive wars against Arabs too. Real cosmo.

The AntiHumanist | January 9, 2008, 4:14pm | #

It implies a double-standard: because libertarians are in the minority, they must behave more wisely than everybody else. Republican and Democrat voters being irrationally exuberant is expected, but libertarians... I admit that I have been deluded by Paul's candidacy--but I am human: when a moment appeared in which my politics might be regarded seriously--even if represented by a dubious character--I leapt onto the bandwagon. Live and learn--but to be derided as exceptionally ignorant or pathological should not be tolerated.

de stijl | January 9, 2008, 4:15pm | #

Or maybe 1 oz vodka, 1/2 oz triple sec, 1/2 oz Rose's® lime juice, 1/2 oz cranberry juice vs. Natty Light.

ed | January 9, 2008, 4:16pm | #

Yes, yes, however, "turnip truck" is still funny. Maybe Gillespie-era Reasonoids ride a shorter bus than those of the Postrel era? Just a theory. Carry on.

John | January 9, 2008, 4:16pm | #

"Just a wild guess here, but for the amount of gold the federal government actually holds wouldn't converting all of the current wealth of the country into so-called 'gold backed currency' make each dollar worth, maybe, about one atom of gold?"

Not exactly. It would drasticlly reduce the amount of currency available and keep the government from making more to stimulate the economy. The government literally could no longer print its own money. It would have to mine it. The economic dislocations associated with a switch to a gold standard would be to say the least significant, which is why it will never happen and libertarians would do well to stop yammering about it.

Mike Laursen | January 9, 2008, 4:18pm | #

He always was pretty paranoid.

That was funny.

joe | January 9, 2008, 4:20pm | #

"When you vote for a guy who spends so much time worrying about international bankers, you're not going to get a tolerant cosmopolitan."

You're anti-semite!

No, YOU'RE an anti-semite!

No, YOU'RE an anti-semite!

No, YOU'RE an anti-semite!

No, YOU'RE an anti-semite!

No, YOU'RE an anti-semite!

No, YOU'RE an anti-semite!

etc.

Shane | January 9, 2008, 4:20pm | #

I think the problem with the currency isn't so much that it isn't backed by gold(or silver), but that it isn't back by gold(or silver) AND only backed by faith in the State to pay it's debts and nothing more. private competing currencies please. preferably backed by more than faith in the issuer.

Guy Montag | January 9, 2008, 4:21pm | #

Not exactly. It would drasticlly reduce the amount of currency available and keep the government from making more to stimulate the economy. The government literally could no longer print its own money. It would have to mine it.

Actually, they would have to declare each "dollar" as worth some amount of gold. If they stick to that amount, then you are correct. If they "re-index" the dollar against a different amount of gold then that is a whole different deal.

Robert | January 9, 2008, 4:21pm | #

twv, I recall one of Roy Childs's last quips -- that Murray Rothbard should run for mayor of New York City: "He'll get the Jewish vote because he's Jewish, and the black vote because he's anti-semitic."

twv | January 9, 2008, 4:21pm | #

I was against this latest war, too, and still find the pro-war libertarians amazingly naive. Postrel included.

But some anti-war libs seem naive to me, too. I have a hard time condemning World War II, no matter how much deceit led up to it. Further, I side with Ron Paul that attacking the Taliban in Afghanistan was a good idea. (Though I still don't understand why this wasn't done under a declaration of war, and don't understand why Ron only talked about such a declaration regarding Iraq.)

I've long had this theory that libertarians need EXTREMELY SMART advocates up front. But so far, our smart guys and gals stay in the background, especially in politics. Maybe there's a reason for this, and the required level of sophistication to handle most objections to rolling back the state won't be found in people that voters would feel comfortable voting for.

So we are left with nice guys, not geniuses. Like Ron Paul.

He's still the only one of the Rs and Ds who I'd vote for, failings and all.

David | January 9, 2008, 4:22pm | #

From NRO's The Corner:

" Ron Paul's Newsletter [Rick Brookhiser]

If you live in Further Right World, you may well believe that the Constitution was a kind of NATO between the states. I think that is demonstrably wrong, but it is an honorable view (Jefferson, in some moods, professed it).

Close by that view is the view that the slave power was the historic defender of liberty, which I think is both wrong and wicked (Jefferson, in his old age, found himself driven to it).

Many inhabitants of Further Right World are also gold bugs. That may be a mistaken belief, but again it is honorable. Gold buggery goes off the rails when it breeds an unhealthy suspicion of central banks. ("The necessary secrecy of [bankers'] transactions gives unlimited scope to imagination to infer that something is, or may be wrong"—Alexander Hamilton, "Report on a National Bank," 1790). I was startled, the first time I read Lysander Spooner—and if you have spent any time in Further Right World, you will know exactly who that is—to find a little blast at the Rothschilds.

Ron Paul clearly holds the honorable views mentioned above, and everyone who knows him testifies that he does not hold the wicked ones. But it requires eternal vigilance in Further Right World to keep the two apart, and he has not exercised it."

http://corner.nationalreview.com/

John | January 9, 2008, 4:22pm | #

The war in Iraq has caused hippy anti-war libertarians to somehow decide that their future lies with peleocon parnoids. It was always an odd mariage to say the least. At some point, the war is going to end and the hippies are going to wake up the next morning after going on their anti-war bender in bed with one ugly broad.

Lincoln | January 9, 2008, 4:23pm | #

Ron Paul is far too threating to rich white guys to ever get elected. Being called a racist will be the least of his problems.

Tom Walls | January 9, 2008, 4:24pm | #

John, so the Ron Paul / paleo ghostwriter newsletter flap calls Austrian economics into question?

Far as I can tell, Ludwig von Mises wasn't one of the possible ghostwriters.

Good points otherwise.

twv | January 9, 2008, 4:25pm | #

That Roy Childs quip was worth the whole scandal, frankly. Thanks, Robert!

TDL | January 9, 2008, 4:25pm | #

twv,
That is a thoughtful, quick recount. That is the kind of assessment that I would like to see more of instead of the reflexive evil "beltway libertarians" vs. neo-conferderates vs. "cultural libertarians" vs. Objectivists vs. (enter name of anyone you want here.) Yet, I think too many of the personalities involved with this movement (whatever you want to call it) are too busy battling over the limelight. Too much he said, she said. I have to imagine the infighting is taking an increasing toll on existing and future donors (I know one donor who is getting tired of it!)

John,
If you accept the tenets of free market capitalism how could you be so dismissive of criticism to a central planning committee such as the Fed? Too many critics get caught up on gold (simply because gold has been the default currency for 5000 years of human history.) In a sophisticated and complex economy like ours a stable (market created) medium of exchange, unit of account, as well as an interest rate that allows for the accurate calculation of a hurdle rate for investment is critical. Money doesn't need to be gold, it just has to be determined by the market place.

Regards,
TDL

Guy Montag | January 9, 2008, 4:26pm | #

Shane,

Please don't come to me for your next hybrid muscle car. I accept payment only in US dollars, not some paper printed off of a computer on an obscure island. I do not accept critters either. Just US Federal Reserve Notes or verified checks, or maybe an old-school HEMI 'Cuda :)

John | January 9, 2008, 4:26pm | #

"Actually, they would have to declare each "dollar" as worth some amount of gold. If they stick to that amount, then you are correct. If they "re-index" the dollar against a different amount of gold then that is a whole different deal."

That is a good point Guy. I had forgotten about re-indexing which puts lie to the whole idea that the gold standard ensures the value of the currency, since there is nothing to stop the government from devalueing a gold based currency by re-indexing it.

Russ 2000 | January 9, 2008, 4:26pm | #

Right on, John.

I hate all that gold talk. Nobody holds cash anyway, they hold capital investments in stocks, bonds, and other deposits in financial institutions. We have a better system than a gold standard - we have a "whatever you want" standard. You can put all your capital investments into gold if you want, or pharmaceuticals, or Chinese real estate or whatever you want. Thanks to technology, these are converted into cash so quickly that most people essentially consider them cash nowadays. You can choose to hold your wealth as Federal Reserve Notes if you want, but I think the vast majority of Americans don't do that - and it doesn't really matter if they know or don't know WHY they don't hold many Fed Notes.

Shane | January 9, 2008, 4:27pm | #

David @4:22,

since when does Lysander Spooner(an individual anarchist and abolitionist) have anything to do with the far-right?

And the Consitution wasn't a "kind of NATO between the States" until Lincoln? What history book is he reading from?

Robert | January 9, 2008, 4:27pm | #

the required level of sophistication to handle most objections to rolling back the state won't be found in people that voters would feel comfortable voting for.
Is there something intrinsic to being smart that produces discomfort??

Jean Paul | January 9, 2008, 4:27pm | #

Yeah, the return to the gold standard never struck me as being all that relevant. I don't really care how the national dollar is backed if I no longer have to pay a penny of taxes denominated in it.

Much better would be to permit free banking anyway, rather than enforcing a single national currency and fighting about it's backing.

Matt | January 9, 2008, 4:27pm | #

All fiat currencies have, at some point, been worth nothing.

Gold has never been worth nothing.

Mr. X | January 9, 2008, 4:28pm | #

That is a good point Guy. I had forgotten about re-indexing which puts lie to the whole idea that the gold standard ensures the value of the currency, since there is nothing to stop the government from devalueing a gold based currency by re-indexing it.

Yeah, but the Congress has to vote for that re-indexing. It's like voting for raising taxes; Congress can do it, but it's unpopular.

Mike Laursen | January 9, 2008, 4:29pm | #

I don't know why the furor is worse now on Hit & Run than when it was brought up about 7 months ago.

Perhaps it is faulty recall on my part, but what was brought up seven months ago was one article in one edition of the newsletter. As of yesterday, we are talking about several articles over several years.

Shane | January 9, 2008, 4:29pm | #

Guy Montag- Laugh if you want, but it's worked before. Politicians shouldn't have anything to do with the economy or the currency, too much power in limited hands.

John | January 9, 2008, 4:30pm | #

"Money doesn't need to be gold, it just has to be determined by the market place."

I can't argue with that. And the number one duty of a central bank and or government is to ensure that the value of the dollar remains stable, neither too much inflation or deflation. But, a floating currency does let the market work it out. Right now, the US is running a big current accounts deficit, so the dollar is falling like a rock. As a result, things in the US are cheap and the current accounts deficit is falling which will eventually bring the value of the dollar back up and achieve some equilibrium. I don't see that as a bad thing.

charlie | January 9, 2008, 4:30pm | #

I've become increasingly disillusioned with the Lew Rockwell crowd (though I think it's unfair to say he's the author of the newsletters before seeing any actual evidence), but that's not to say I think Virginia Postrel and her vapid "dynamism" is any better. As has been mentioned, she endorsed the Iraq war, and I haven't heard her apologize for it since. To her and the CATO crowd, libertarians should talk about things like school vouchers and cutting the estate tax, not uncomfortable things like opposing American imperialism (that won't get you invited to any Republican cocktail parties, that's for sure).

And just because Ron Paul might have some personal failings, that doesn't make his critique of the Federal Reserve and American monetary policy any less vailid. F.A. Hayek endorsed the idea of competing legal currencies, but I guess we're supposed to be better off ignoring things like that because it may currently be unpopular amongst Postrel's "cosmopolitan" crowd.

Russ 2000 | January 9, 2008, 4:31pm | #

I've long had this theory that libertarians need EXTREMELY SMART advocates up front.

That means people with IQ's over 130 which puts them so far away from the norm that people feel uneasy about them. In fact, that's been the exact problem for libertarians.

What libertarians need is someone EXTREMELY AVERAGE. Why do you think Reagan appealed to so many?

Jim Lesczynski | January 9, 2008, 4:32pm | #

Pat Robertson backs Giuliani. Robertson famously wrote a book claiming that the Illuminati and Freemasons rule the world. Have we heard any outrage cosmopolitan denounce Rudy as a Nazi for this? Of course not! Rudy is an establishment candidate. He can get away with whatever he likes.

Of course Robertson didn't publish his views anonymously in a newsletter titled "The Giuliani Report."

On the other hand, Ron Paul never had cops under his chain of command bugger a perp with a broomstick while yelling "It's Paul Time!" Racist actions speak louder than words.

Mike Laursen | January 9, 2008, 4:32pm | #

I leapt onto the bandwagon. Live and learn--but to be derided as exceptionally ignorant or pathological should not be tolerated.

Good point. Assuming you are a fairly normal person, who has a life, and don't dedicate every hour of your time to following every bit of libertarian insider gossip, it's understandable that you were enthusiastic about the things Ron Paul is saying now, and didn't know about his history.

Robert | January 9, 2008, 4:33pm | #

Perhaps it is faulty recall on my part, but what was brought up seven months ago was one article in one edition of the newsletter. As of yesterday, we are talking about several articles over several years.
That would make a difference to me. My assumption that the amount of material was the same then shows that even with the inordinate amount of time I'm spending on this stuff, I'm still letting people pre-digest a lot for me.

dpotts | January 9, 2008, 4:33pm | #

but so far, our smart guys and gals stay in the background, especially in politics. Maybe there's a reason for this.

Libertarians despise government - why would we want it to be our job when we can blog instead?

GinSlinger | January 9, 2008, 4:34pm | #

When I was young, I thought gin was awful. Now I don't.

Thanks TPG!

Franklin Harris | January 9, 2008, 4:34pm | #

Remember, the Paleo Turn was an attempt to egg on hate towards the underclass as part of a class war that would (golly gee whiz, really?) overthrow the state.
Actually, the paleo turn was an attempt to create a populist front against statist elites. To the extent that there was a class element involved, the target was actually a segment of the rich.

David | January 9, 2008, 4:34pm | #

Shane,

Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger.

Ask Mr. Brookhiser.

http://www.richardbrookhiser.com/

Shane | January 9, 2008, 4:34pm | #

What libertarians need is someone EXTREMELY AVERAGE.

haven't met one yet, i keep running into nerds and rednecks or sometimes even people who are a little of both(hello), but average?

The Wine Commonsewer | January 9, 2008, 4:35pm | #

Been a while since VP graced the pages of her old alma mater. But today is a fine day to hear from the old boss.

I respect VP (more than you might imagine), but here's the thing, when Daily Kos made the unsubstantiated allegations I searched the internet for hours and there wasn't a single source document presented on any site that claimed the allegations were true. If that makes me a dumb ass, so be it. But of all those who claim to have known all along, and VP probably did since she was living in Dallas, I suspect that very few knew the reality. Not unless they lived in Texas or subscribed to the RP newsletters. At that point RP was a long ago phenom and a has-been.

It doesn't have anything to do with paying attention. Otherwise the Reason staff wouldn't be peddling backwards en masse. They'da broke the story in the first place.

Jesus Chrysler.

Guy Montag | January 9, 2008, 4:35pm | #

Mr. X,

Yeah, but the Congress has to vote for that re-indexing. It's like voting for raising taxes; Congress can do it, but it's unpopular.

Actually, the Congress now votes on the debt ceiling, which is a (very) rough equivilant to reindexing.

Shane,

I am not laughing at the barterors, I am just making my side of the transaction clear as to what payment I accept and examples of what I do not.

Now, when you find a 1970 'Cuda convertable to trade me for a 2008 resto-mod hybrid just let me know and we can avoid all of that dirty fiat money.

TLB | January 9, 2008, 4:37pm | #

Lincoln says: Ron Paul is far too threating to rich white guys to ever get elected. Being called a racist will be the least of his problems.

Leaving aside the card playing, for some reason or other, Reason has completely ignored that side of this story. Not too many people seem to be interested in the TNR piece's backstory. It's possible to oppose both Paul and what seem to be the unseemly underpinnings of the TNR piece, but apparently doing that is beyond Reason's grasp.

Shane | January 9, 2008, 4:38pm | #

Now, when you find a 1970 'Cuda convertable to trade me for a 2008 resto-mod hybrid just let me know and we can avoid all of that dirty fiat money.

deal. barter works best for me personally, trouble is carry all those chickens around in my wallet.

seriously though, props to liberty dollars, private currencies work if you can keep them accountable.

twv | January 9, 2008, 4:38pm | #

By the way, am I the only person who admires the work (generally) done by Cato, Reason, AND Mises.org?

Every week, if not every day, I turn to each of these sites. Mises.org alone is to be commended for its publication of hard-to-find classics. Cato does some great policy work, and gets mainstream and even centrist people to consider and debate libertarian ideas. And Reason, of course, is a magazine that keeps getting better and better.

Whatever indiscretions and follies may have occurred in each of these organization's past lives (and there are embarrassments aplenty for all, I'm sure), today these three "poles" of the libertarian movement offer quite a lot of information and analysis as well as theory and fun.

charlie | January 9, 2008, 4:38pm | #

Question regarding the National Review excerpt above: I consider myself to be one of those hippy antiwar people first, libertarian second (though obviously they're perfectly compatible)... but is liking Lysander Spooner, a 19th century abolitionist and anarchist, supposed to mark me as some sort of "far right" paleo? I don't know, but I thought the whole vehement anti-slavery thing was pretty progressive for its time... can someone enlighten me?

jj | January 9, 2008, 4:39pm | #

What evidence you or Vagina Postrel have that Lew wrote the offensive comments?

Racists claim that all members of a certain race are stupid or ugly or evil. You fuckers are even worse. Some people of every race are evil. So racists are right 1% of the time. You idiots have no evidence that Rockwell wrote anything of the sort. Put up or fucking shut up.

TDL | January 9, 2008, 4:40pm | #

The AntiHumanist,
I couldn't say it better myself.

John,
I agree with you in the intermediate term, but I am not as certain about the longer term picture of the $. Also, the equilibrium point might be significantly lower than anyone might realize (except for perma-bears of course.) Although I'll say you make a good point about focusing in on tax and spending reductions and keep the more arcane monetary policy on the back burner.

Regards,
TDL

The Wine Commonsewer | January 9, 2008, 4:40pm | #

VP headline wins the thread:

Libertarians Fall Off Turnip Truck

I don't agree but I am still LOL

Eric the .5b | January 9, 2008, 4:41pm | #

It doesn't have anything to do with paying attention. Otherwise the Reason staff wouldn't be peddling backwards en masse. They'da broke the story in the first place.
Does it? Jesse Walker already gave his response to that general question, but I'd like to hear what the rest of the Reasonoids have to say to Postrel's claim that, essentially, everybody with a brain already knew this.

TDL | January 9, 2008, 4:41pm | #

twv,
I do too.

FU | January 9, 2008, 4:41pm | #

Go Lew Rockwell! Go Mises.org. Shut up hippy wimps!

Matt | January 9, 2008, 4:41pm | #

Id post this on Postrel's site, but no posting available.

Hey Virginia, werent Ron Pauls' mentors Rothbard, Mises, and Friedman "Cosmopolitan" in your sense of the word?

Doug Walker | January 9, 2008, 4:43pm | #

John:

Your first post is spot on.

http://www.reason.com/blog/show/124309.html#876069

It’s maddening that Paul (or any major Libertarian candidate) can’t seem to enthusiastically embrace the elements of libertarianism that resonate positively with so many people: Lower my taxes, control spending and keep the government out of my hair as much as possible. Your suggested five-part platform is lucid, pragmatic and, most importantly, accessible. Paul could've finished third in NH if he ran on it.

I get so frustrated with the wonky tangents that confuse (or worse, alienate) disgruntled voters looking for alternatives to the blues and reds. The gold standard? The constitutionality of forced private-sector integration in the Civil Rights Act of 1964? They warrant academic discussion, but are these really the issues libertarians expect to invite and energize people?

The Wine Commonsewer | January 9, 2008, 4:43pm | #

I take that back, VP was still in LA at the time the offensive newsletters were circulated. But she was paying attention.

BakedPenguin | January 9, 2008, 4:45pm | #

...is liking Lysander Spooner, a 19th century abolitionist and anarchist, supposed to mark me as some sort of "far right" paleo?
Huh? How'd he get dragged into this? Did I miss something?

TrickyVic | January 9, 2008, 4:45pm | #

It won't be too long before all transactions are electronic. It will be important to prevent terrorist, drug dealers, and other bad guys from making cash transaction. It will be global credits.

Get with the program! ;-)

John | January 9, 2008, 4:45pm | #

TDL,

In my opinion the dollar is backed by the productivity of the American economy. The more the government meddles with that the worse things get. No gold standard is going to save you if you tax and regulate your economy to death and it is not that hard to run a floating currency if you have a dynamic powerful economy.

TrickyVic | January 9, 2008, 4:46pm | #

I'm half kidding.

The Wine Commonsewer | January 9, 2008, 4:46pm | #

I ain't no hippie wimp!

charlie | January 9, 2008, 4:48pm | #

BakedPenguin (wonderful name, btw) --

Rick Brookhiser at National Review wrote: "Many inhabitants of Further Right World are also gold bugs. That may be a mistaken belief, but again it is honorable. Gold buggery goes off the rails when it breeds an unhealthy suspicion of central banks. ("The necessary secrecy of [bankers'] transactions gives unlimited scope to imagination to infer that something is, or may be wrong"—Alexander Hamilton, "Report on a National Bank," 1790). I was startled, the first time I read Lysander Spooner—and if you have spent any time in Further Right World, you will know exactly who that is—to find a little blast at the Rothschilds."

I wrote a major paper in college critiquing the concept of a social contract that drew heavily on Spooner's "No Treason" writings, and now I'm wondering if that's supposed to make me a denizen of "Far Right World"...

dpotts | January 9, 2008, 4:48pm | #

They warrant academic discussion, but are these really the issues libertarians expect to invite and energize people?

It's Badnarik all over again, except this time it's the gold standard instead of ID cards, and we actually had an audience for a moment.

A Dick | January 9, 2008, 4:48pm | #

It's still Daylight Savings Time? Does that mean that I missed it as of this post?

TDL | January 9, 2008, 4:50pm | #

John,
I agree with you there. Although I'm increasingly concerned about having an accurate hurdle rate (which is driven by interest rates.) A sharp yield curve might distort the picture at both ends of the curve and make it hard for entrepreneurs and business people to make accurate investment decisions. Then again I am talking my booking since I am coming closing to the funding cycle of a start-up.

Regards,
TDL

TDL | January 9, 2008, 4:51pm | #

"booking" should read "book"

Jean Paul | January 9, 2008, 4:55pm | #

The most important place to eradicate racism is in the law.

The dreaded racist-next-door is not the guy you need to worry about. If some person is a racist, you can hate them if you want, but who cares becuase it's their loss really.

The thing about racism is, it's economically degenerate and will eventually fade into an impoverished demise over the course of generations. This you can bet on.

But when the system of LAW that binds us all is racist, well... we can expect that system to drag us all down with it to a likewise impoverished demise.

I don't really care if Ron Paul once-upon-a-time, being a younger and less wise man than he is today, hadn't yet realized the perils of racism. Clearly he's learned something and his more mature politics are not racist today. That's far better than I would say for any of the other candidates.

Martin | January 9, 2008, 4:55pm | #

'To her and the CATO crowd, libertarians should talk about things like school vouchers and cutting the estate tax'

With all due respect, Cato et al have been doing that for years. They have barely a thing to show for it. For all their elitism and cosmopolitanism, the Washington elite don't listen to them. When offered to choose between school choice and No Child Behind for example, the Washington power elite will always pick the latter. CATO are naive if they believe they will ever influence the Washington elite on anything but trivialities.

Any successful libertarian movement would need a substantial populist element to it. Paul may have failed, but I'll give him his due for trying. CATO/Postrel/beltway gang will never achieve this.

VoteFraud | January 9, 2008, 4:56pm | #

so, like, um, how about that NH voting fraud?

temporary k | January 9, 2008, 4:56pm | #

Without speaking in code, let me add one item to John's list of "sensible libertarian" positions above:

1. I am going to lower your taxes
2. I am going to stop the government from telling you how to live
3. I am going to government spending so that every year it is a smaller percentage of GDP than the year before
4. I am going get the federal government out of as many sectors of the economy as I possibly can
5. I am going to stop wasting time and money throwing people in jail over drugs.
6. I am going to renounce the use of economic sanctions and embargoes and maintain open diplomatic relations with all nations.

Note that there's nothing pacifist, isolationist or even idealist about that statement. I would add something to the effect of reducing our global military footprint and stepping back from the World Police role, but I think anybody who calls themself a libertarian can agree on the items in #6. Ron Paul's foreign policy ideas, even if they go well beyond what many libertarians can stomach, are a huge part of his campaign's success, and his strongest appeal to me personally.

Peter | January 9, 2008, 4:58pm | #

Whatever one's feelings regarding Paul were or are, and I am just rephrasing what some others have said, this has done irreparable damage to Libertarianism. Living in LA, I feel like an outcast already just having the views I do. Now, the false associations most left-wingers and progressives etc. harbored toward us will be cemented existentially. I feel like the momentum towards having some semblance of acceptance in mainstream civil society has been abruptly halted and turned backwards. I do consider myself a conservative by the same token as my libertarianism, as Reagan put it that conservatism's heart is libertarian, though conservatism has also been sullied by the reign of the neocons and the social-religious zealots.

I am also not alone in saying that the best way to revive the ideas of liberty (social AND economic) is to have a liberal in the white house. I say this not out of idealogical attachment, but out of the fact that more perversion of the principles of libertarianism is the last thing we need to advance those principles. Better yet to start fresh and give those principles time once more to ferment in the collective subconscious. I feel we've reached a moment similar to the McCarthy days, dark ones for conservatism indeed.

Ayn R. Key | January 9, 2008, 4:59pm | #

I was against this latest war, too, and still find the pro-war libertarians amazingly naive. Postrel included.

But some anti-war libs seem naive to me, too. I have a hard time condemning World War II, no matter how much deceit led up to it. Further, I side with Ron Paul that attacking the Taliban in Afghanistan was a good idea. (Though I still don't understand why this wasn't done under a declaration of war, and don't understand why Ron only talked about such a declaration regarding Iraq.)


That's because WWII is never discussed in context. Seriously it isn't, and I've had many a warmonger try to trap me on the WWII issue.

But when I tell them that WWII started in 1914 (which it did) and that the USA had no business in the 1914 war, they realize two things. First they realize I'm right, second they realise they don't know history.

alan | January 9, 2008, 4:59pm | #

Perhaps it is faulty recall on my part, but what was brought up seven months ago was one article in one edition of the newsletter. As of yesterday, we are talking about several articles over several years.

That would make a difference to me. My assumption that the amount of material was the same then shows that even with the inordinate amount of time I'm spending on this stuff, I'm still letting people pre-digest a lot for me.


Same here.Before the Christmas break, I spent August to December working my ass off. I figured if there was much substance to the matter beyond some off colored remarks from a staffer whom Paul fired then it would have came to light before the day of the freaking New Hamshire primary.

Thanks Reason (though looking back at the Weigel article there were plenty of lines to be read between). As for Postrel, brrrrr, nobody likes a snooty, I told you so.

Dangerman | January 9, 2008, 5:00pm | #

I get so frustrated with the wonky tangents that confuse (or worse, alienate) disgruntled voters looking for alternatives to the blues and reds. The gold standard? The constitutionality of forced private-sector integration in the Civil Rights Act of 1964? They warrant academic discussion, but are these really the issues libertarians expect to invite and energize people?

*sigh*

Wanting and expecting are separate, and it's easy to get carried away, especially when you think you hear sensible things from a politician.

I know, I know...


*sigh*

Jean Paul | January 9, 2008, 5:00pm | #

Temporary k, agree on the foreign policy world police stuff!!!!!

What a waste of money! Spending trillions, to cause trillions upon trillions more in damage. Sickening madness.

Brandybuck | January 9, 2008, 5:01pm | #

To some, it has everything to do with libertarianism.
This must be my slow day, because I still don't get it. The "tolerant" I can understand, and it's necessary for libertarianism. But "cosmopolitan"? Hillary Clinton is a tolerant cosmopolitan. Rudy Giuliani is a tolerant cosmopolitan. Barack Obama is a tolerant cosmopolitan. How are any of them remotely libertarian?

BakedPenguin | January 9, 2008, 5:01pm | #

charlie - ah, thanks. I'd consider the source on that one. Apparently he hasn't noticed that Spooner has a few fans in "Far Left World," as well. Or else, he has noticed it, but didn't want to mention it, because it would mess up his theme.
Ron Paul's foreign policy ideas, even if they go well beyond what many libertarians can stomach, are a huge part of his campaign's success, and his strongest appeal to me personally.
Agreed. And bringing back soldiers from all those far-flung bases would save the taxpayers an asswad of cash.

Taktix® | January 9, 2008, 5:02pm | #

WTF?

93 comments and no one has said "reason was so much better when Postrel was the editor" ?!?

I, for one, am disappointed...

charlie | January 9, 2008, 5:05pm | #

For all those bemoaning the great fall of libertarianism I ask, "have you considered another word?"

I mean, it's just a label, and a pretty clunky and dorky-sounding one at that. It also hasn't exactly caught fire amongst the American public, so why the focus on the supposed harm Ron Paul may or may not do to the "libertarian" movement?

I think we can all continue to argue in favor of libertarian ideas whether we call it "radical decentralism" or "neo-whateverthefuck-ism.

John | January 9, 2008, 5:05pm | #

temp K,

I don't think many people care about economic embargos and diplomatic relations one way or another. Outside of lefties who love Castro and the exile community, who gets that upset about the Cuban embargo? Not many people. I think you could make more of a populist appeal by criticizing the US's role as world policeman. But, the problem is that Ron Paul did it all wrong. He did it as "we keep doing these awful things and the world hates us for it". The people who beleive that are not going to generally be lefties who are not going to buy into small government. The people who will buy into the small government roll, generally are very patriotic and will not listen to that kind of criticism. His message should have been "rouble doesn't make trouble. I am not going to spend one American life rebuilding anyone's country and if any country attacks America I am going to bomb them into the stone age, achieve complete victory and go home. In the mean time I am not going to spend billions of dollars defending Europe, Taiwan and South Korea when they won't spend an equal amount to defend themselves." That message would resonate with a lot of people.

Ben Masel | January 9, 2008, 5:08pm | #

There's a "double standard" because we claim to be principled. Bill at least winked when he uttered "I didn't inhale."

Jaap Weel | January 9, 2008, 5:09pm | #

"Tolerant cosmopolitan"? What the frak does that have to do with libertarianism?"

Inasfar as modern (and specifically, American) libertarianism is a continuation of the classical liberal tradition: everything. Inasfar as modern American libertarianism is a newfangled theory that is all about rationalistically deriving the whole of political morality from two or three hifalutin' metaphysical axioms: not necessarily a whole lot. I blame Ayn Rand for having done so much to promote the
rationalist school. Virginia Postrel represents the tradition of Popper and Hayek; her book The Future and its Enemies is something Hayek might have written if he had been a talented and experienced American journalist rather than a talented and experienced Austrian academic, and the title is of course a reference to Popper.

Anyhow, the classical liberal tradition is quintessentially tolerant and cosmopolitan. It has been the philosophy of meritocratic merchants seeking to overthrow the entrenched privilege of French aristocrats and Prussian bureaucrats in favor of peaceful voluntary interaction without regard to rank or creed or other such bullshit. In that sense, it is illiberal to see the world as an assortment of groups, nations, genders, ranks, classes, ethnicities, whose interests are irrevocably opposed and who must fight the class struggle or win the war or kill the Jews or keep the uppity Negroes in their place or whatever. Instead, it proposes to stop fighting already and start trading and otherwise cooperating peacefully. That might sound like starry-eyed idealism, but in the cases where people have believed in it sufficiently to give it a try, the results have traditionally been outright amazing.

As you can see, this is a very different approach to political philosophy from "you see, the Nature of Man is such that he has a Right to Own his Body, and therefore ..." (cut 200 pages of questionable metaphysics) "abolish the IRS!"

But in a sense, it is every bit as libertarian, or at least classically liberal, and often leads to similar conclusions.

crimethink | January 9, 2008, 5:09pm | #

There are 4.18 x 10^24 atoms of gold in a single ounce.

So, I'm not thinking a dollar would be backed by an atom of gold.

crimethink | January 9, 2008, 5:11pm | #

Sorry, that's actually 8.67 x 10^22 atoms of gold per ounce. Multiplication and division is hard...

Martin | January 9, 2008, 5:12pm | #

'In that sense, it is illiberal to see the world as an assortment of groups, nations, genders, ranks, classes, ethnicities, whose interests are irrevocably opposed and who must fight the class struggle or win the war or kill the Jews or keep the uppity Negroes in their place or whatever.'

This is true. But then why do so many of these 'tolerant' cosmos really have it in for Arabs?

Derek | January 9, 2008, 5:14pm | #

It's kind of interesting to see how some people seem eager to see Dr. Paul hang for this. There's no point in going over all the specifics here -- we all know he didn't write the stuff or edit the newsletters, but that he should have been much more careful with what was going on under his name. It's just unfortunate that someone who has otherwise lived such a clean life -- delivered more than 4,000 babies, worked in inner city hospitals, served in Air Force, married to one woman for 50 years, tireless defender of liberty and the Constitution -- has to have his name dragged through the mud just when he was finally getting the recognition he deserved after laboring for years in relative obscurity. And the fact that some people here are ready to toss Paul overboard so quickly and show so little appreciation to him is disgraceful.

alan | January 9, 2008, 5:14pm | #

93 comments and no one has said "reason was so much better when Postrel was the editor" ?!?

Exactly the opposite is true in my view. There was a degree ball dropping in this matter by the current Reason staff, but I don't miss the Postrel era in the least. To much gate keeping, and fear mongering against the yokels that make up the American landscape made the magazine almost establishmentarian.

John | January 9, 2008, 5:14pm | #

"This is true. But then why do so many of these 'tolerant' cosmos really have it in for Arabs?"

First, they don't have it in for Arabs. They have it in for radical Islamists who definitely seem to have it in for the Cosmopolitans and every one else for that matter. Second, there is nothing unlibertarian about fighting against forces of extreme illiberty.

joe | January 9, 2008, 5:15pm | #

They never should have taken us off the muscle-car standard.

Ben Masel | January 9, 2008, 5:15pm | #

Anybody know WHEN Paul fired Rockwell?

TDL | January 9, 2008, 5:16pm | #

joe,
I disagree, emphatically! The big Caddy standard is where it's at.

Regards,
TDL

Bingo | January 9, 2008, 5:16pm | #

Snoop Dogg should be the LP's presidential candidate

- Heavily invested in gold
- Proud owner of multiple firearms
- Liberal stance on personal lifestyle choices
- Opposed to the drug war
- Against the militarization of police forces
- Pro-choice
- Generally suspicious of any governmental authority

| January 9, 2008, 5:17pm | #

CATO are naive if they believe they will ever influence the Washington elite

They don't want to influence it. They want to be invited to brunch with it.

Disdain for us unbrunchable bumpkins is the central plank of Postrel/Cato "libertarianism."

Egosumabbas | January 9, 2008, 5:18pm | #

What bothers me with NOT having a commodity-backed currency is that the value of the dollar currently represents the US debt, the faith in the people and government to pay it back, further backed backed by the strength of our military.

Since the faith in US government is decreasing domestically and internationally, and our military is stretched thin (though we still have a butt-load of nukes), having a faith-based currency seems like a bad idea in the near-term.

Now if we can only restore faith in the government, then we wouldn't need a gold standard. But that reminds me of the typical naïve Democrat argument that if only we elected competent officials, big government would be competent.

Though I lean more towards a "let the market decide" currency. Could be gold or belly lint. A central-planning agency like the Federal Reserve in charge of currency makes me uncomfortable.

Martin | January 9, 2008, 5:18pm | #

'First, they don't have it in for Arabs. They have it in for radical Islamists who definitely seem to have it in for the Cosmopolitans and every one else for that matter. Second, there is nothing unlibertarian about fighting against forces of extreme illiberty.'

Yeh nothing 'unlibertarian' about a decade of sanctions, tens of thousands of dead civilians, $500 billion and rising of taxpayers money pissed down the drain, crackdowns on civil liberties,and so on.

Great going warmongers.

joe | January 9, 2008, 5:19pm | #

Mankind will not be crucified on a Coup de Ville!

Martin | January 9, 2008, 5:20pm | #

'They don't want to influence it. They want to be invited to brunch with it.

Disdain for us unbrunchable bumpkins is the central plank of Postrel/Cato "libertarianism."'

I stand corrected.

temporary k | January 9, 2008, 5:20pm | #

John:
I am not going to spend one American life rebuilding anyone's country and if any country attacks America I am going to bomb them into the stone age, achieve complete victory and go home. In the mean time I am not going to spend billions of dollars defending Europe, Taiwan and South Korea when they won't spend an equal amount to defend themselves.

I agree with this as a policy and especially as rhetoric for a US presidential election. I tried to limit my addition to one sentence, but this would have been the second one. Opposition to sanctions and other forms of economic bullying - especially in Iraq throughout the 90s - is more widespread than I think you realize, and I think emphasizing it brings in a lot of the independent, even left-leaning voters that have made the rEVOLution so surprising, but that stance does need to be paired with a convincing "strong defense" posture to be most effective.

TDL | January 9, 2008, 5:21pm | #

joe,
I think you just won the thread. Then again I am no authority on such things!

Regards,
TDL

alan | January 9, 2008, 5:21pm | #

Second, there is nothing unlibertarian about fighting against forces of extreme illiberty.

Translate: fighting against those Arabs who wont bow down before their masters and accept the satraps we assign them.

alan | January 9, 2008, 5:22pm | #

I second that, Joe won it.

joe | January 9, 2008, 5:23pm | #

Now, alan, you know the warmongers wait for a semi-plausible reason to believe they've got it coming first.

John | January 9, 2008, 5:23pm | #

"To much gate keeping, and fear mongering against the yokels that make up the American landscape made the magazine almost establishmentarian."

It is completely establishmentarian now. The entire staff lives in either DC or LA. What position do they embrace that is not DC establishment or at least acceptable to the establishment? Legalize drugs? PHHT. There is nothing radical or subversive about saying that at a good DC cocktail party. Anti Iraq War? Oh that is a courageous and unpopular stance among Washington Journalists? Fuck the police? Never heard that before. Open Borders, that is wildly radical and unpopular among the Washington establishment.

Not that here are not plenty of very un PC libertarian positions out there. There are. Gun rights, objection to affirmative action, Men's rights and reforming our outrageous divorce and child support laws, workplace censorship and things like sexual harassment law, censorship and indoctrination on college campuses to just name a few.

But none of those issues seem to be very important to the Reason Staff. I read hit and run every day and you rarely see posts on those issues. You mostly see posts on issues where the libertarian position is at least palatable to your typical lefty journalist in Washington.

Basically the Reason staff has no balls and are too worried about offending their friends and collegues in the media to run a really subversive magazine.

John | January 9, 2008, 5:24pm | #

The muscle car standard is pretty damn funny Joe.

Greg N. | January 9, 2008, 5:25pm | #

Brandy,

Will Wilkinson recently quoted Mises over at his blog, in a discussion about the "ultimate liberal aim." It might help shed some light on the role of cosmopolitanism in libertarianism.

In "Liberalism," Mises wrote:

"The starting point of liberal thought is the recognition of the value and importance of human cooperation, and the whole policy and program of liberalism is designed to serve the purpose of maintaining the existing state of mutual cooperation among the members of the human race and of extending it still further. The ultimate ideal envisioned by liberalism is the perfect cooperation of all mankind, taking place peacefully and without friction. Liberal thinking always has the whole of humanity in view and not just parts. It does not stop at limited groups; it does not end at the border of the village, of the province, of the nation, or of the continent. Its thinking is cosmopolitan and ecumenical: it takes in all men and the whole world. Liberalism is, in this sense, humanism; and the liberal, a citizen of the world, a cosmopolite."

Derek | January 9, 2008, 5:25pm | #

That must be why they seem so willing to dump Paul overboard so quickly.

John | January 9, 2008, 5:26pm | #

"Translate: fighting against those Arabs who wont bow down before their masters and accept the satraps we assign them."


WTF? You people are moonbats.

Martin | January 9, 2008, 5:28pm | #

'Translate: fighting against those Arabs who wont bow down before their masters and accept the satraps we assign them.'

Yeh this kind of liberal interventionism boils down to sending Americans to die and taxpayers money to be spent to prop up the Saudis and Kuwaiti regimes.

Fluffy | January 9, 2008, 5:29pm | #

The Paul campaign didn't fall apart because of these newsletters.

To the extent that it has fallen apart, it's because the campaign misidentified the issues that had made it catch fire with a part of the electorate, and conducted a campaign appropriate to Paul's Congressional district but not to an insurgency against the Republican party establishment.

Exit polls from NH show that McCain trounced Paul among voters who wanted an Iraq withdrawal. 49% of the people who voted in the NH primary said that anger at the Bush administration motivated their vote to some extent - and Paul got 8% of the vote.

It stupefies me that Paul wasted money on anti-immigration ads and anti-abortion infomercials and the rest of it. He needed to campaign as the conscience of the Republican party on the war, on spending, on civil liberties, and on accountability for the various scandals of the Bush administration. Full stop. Had he done that, he would have been more successful. Had he done that, he would have essentially been campaigning on a "redemption for Republicans" platform, and he could have snuck his own redemption in there somewhere at the margins.

It's too late now. The campaign remained convinced that the way to win was to pretend to be just another Republican. That may work in Texas, but it won't work anywhere else.

FatDrunkAndStupid | January 9, 2008, 5:33pm | #

I think we have to put things in perspective. This story isn't "damaging" to the libertarian movement. What a delusional notion. The media doesn't even care about this. Drudge dropped it after 5 minutes and this is the only place that is giving the incident a thorough treatment. I think that's because what these newsletters highlight is, as has been mentioned, the cultural divide among libertarians and two sects that, though they have pretty much the same views, don't much like each other. I'm not invested in the culture wars. I read Lew Rockwell and Reason. Reason is better written. Some of the posters on Lew are borderline hacks. But Lew's site sometimes brings a passion that Reason's "too cool for school" attitude doesn't. Both are important and we as libertarians need to start practicing what we preach and start being more tolerant of each other. The guy in Montana with the shotgun and bible in hand has just as much right to be a libertarian as the hipster in DC shopping at Whole Foods. The reason Ron has had so much success is that he's so darn nice and tolerant that he appeals to Alex Jone's audience just as much as Reason's. Ron has made clear he didn't write the tracts in question nor are they are part of his beliefs. He's taken moral responsibility nonetheless because they were in a newsletter bearing his name. What more can the guy do? This is ancient history. We should be the ones leading the charge to move on, not the ones beating a dead horse that not even the MSM seems all that interested in.

Fluffy | January 9, 2008, 5:37pm | #

Second, there is nothing unlibertarian about fighting against forces of extreme illiberty.

Except that of the times we've done that [say 5 or 6 times] our record's just not that good.

WWI - The side we fought against wasn't that much less liberal than the side we fought for. And the outcomes attained in 1919 didn't do much to serve liberty, either.

WWII - The good one. Put a check in the "fighting illiberty" column.

Korea - The government we defended was autocratic and dictatorial for decades after the war.

Viet Nam - A complete antiliberty clusterfuck.

Gulf War 1 - fought on behalf of monarchies, but not so bad an outcome otherwise.

Iraq War - A complete antiliberty clusterfuck.

With a success rate like this, eventually you might want to start to conclude that maybe there's something about wars - particularly wars of occupation - that makes them questionable weapons for advancing liberty.

temporary k | January 9, 2008, 5:37pm | #

amen, Fluffy.

Ben | January 9, 2008, 5:38pm | #

Uhhh, did anyone here watch Matt on CNN (the actual point of this thread), and if so, what was said?

FatDrunkAndStupid | January 9, 2008, 5:38pm | #

Fluffy,
Agree with you to some extent, but Monday morning quarterbacking is easy. The campaign was trying to "mainstream" themselves to primary voters in an attempt to win. Hopefully the back to back 10% showings demonstrate to the campaign that a change in tact is warranted. Mainstreaming isn't working, so they might as well use the rest of the campaign money to talk about the stuff Paul really believes.

temporary k | January 9, 2008, 5:38pm | #

ha! for both posts

Fluffy | January 9, 2008, 5:41pm | #

Damn right, FDS. They should go over the falls in a barrel now.

Frankly, if they do that, they probably won't run out of money because they'll just get more.

Paul's personality isn't suited to it very well, but the campaign has to go into "J'ACCUSE!!!" mode. That would get a whole lot of dispirited, alienated supporters to open their wallets again.

John C. Randolph | January 9, 2008, 5:42pm | #

"There is nothing necessarily anti-freedom about a floating currency"

Aside from the state forcing us to accept it in payment of debts and outlawing competing currencies, and charging capital g