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Skeptical Environmentalist's Response to Gore Plan

C-SPAN radio broadcast former V-P Al Gore's Congressional testimony earlier today and I blogged his ten point plan to address the "climate crisis." A vote came up and the committee delayed Copenhagen Consensus Center director Bjorn Lomborg's response to Gore's testimony. C-SPAN radio is now broadcasting hearings about issuing subpoenas to White House in the U.S. attorney general firing matter.

So, I am providing below a selection from Lomborg's press release and directions to link to his formal testimony (pdf 25 pages).

Lomborg...


cited the issues of heat deaths, sea level rise, hurricanes and malaria as outstanding examples of Gore’s exaggerated and incorrect claims.

“We need to know just how many more heat deaths we can expect compared with how many fewer cold deaths,” Lomborg said. He cited statistics that showed that each year about 1.5 million people die from excessive cold in Europe, more than seven times the heat deaths. “That we so easily forget these deaths and so easily embrace the exclusive worry about global warming tells us of a breakdown inour sense of proportion,” Lomborg said.

On the issue of sea level change, Lomborg asked, “How is it possible that one of today’s strongest voices on climate change can say something so dramatically different from the est science (provided by the IPCC)?” He added, “IPCC estimates a foot, Gore tops them 20 times.”

Gore’s prediction that if Greenland melted or broke up and slipped into the sea or if half of Greenland and half of Antarctica id the same thing, sea levels worldwide would increase between 18 and 20 feet, Lomborg said, is “simply positing a hypothetical and then in full graphic and gory detail showing us what – hypothetically – would happen to Miami, San Francisco, Amsterdam, Beijing, Shanghai, Dhaka and then New York.”

Lomborg said stronger and more frequent hurricanes have been cited as a calamity of global warming, yet the most reputable scientific sources have drawn no firm conclusions. “When Al Gore tells us that there is a ‘scientific consensus’ that global warming is making hurricanes more powerful and more destructive, it is incorrect.”

The recent increase in human suffering and economic impact as a result of tropical cyclones “has largely been caused by rising concentrations of population and infrastructure in coastal regions,” Lomborg said. “There are many more people, residing in much more vulnerable areas, with many more assets to lose,” he said. “In the U.S. today, the two coastal South Florida counties, Dade and Broward, are home to more people than the number of people who lived in 1930 in all 109 coastal counties stretching from Texas through irginia, along the Gulf and Atlantic coasts.”

Gore’s assertions that malaria has increased as a result of global warming are similarly flawed, Lomborg said. “Like most stories, there is at core some truth to the claim that malaria will increase with temperature, but it is a small part compared to richness and health infrastructure,” he said. “Even if we could entirely stop global warming today…we would only change malaria risk in 2085 by 3.2 percent.” Even with a “stringent climate policy” Lomborg said studies show “there is little clear effect by the 2080s.”

“Compare this to current expectations that we can cut malaria incidence to about half to three‐fourths by 2015 for about $3 billion annually – or 2 percent of the cost of Kyoto,” Lomborg said.

Lomborg's whole press release and his complete formal testimony can be downloaded from the Copenhagen Consensus Center.

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Comments to "Skeptical Environmentalist's Response to Gore Plan":

Guy Montag | March 21, 2007, 2:23pm | #

Draft Gore 2008!

Stop malaria by freezing in the dark instead of evil DDT!

plunge | March 21, 2007, 2:29pm | #

Ah, are we back to pushing the DDT myth again?

I see John Stossel has lied his way into another impressionable mind.

joe | March 21, 2007, 2:32pm | #

Wow, what a dishonest hack Lomborg is.

"“That we so easily forget these deaths and so easily embrace the exclusive worry about global warming tells us of a breakdown inour sense of proportion,” Lomborg said."

Uh, no, that we suspect there will be more weather-related deaths when people are living in climates their habits and settlements aren't prepared for, due to rapid change, tells us that we have somewhat of a clue about how human beings operate.

" “How is it possible that one of today’s strongest voices on climate change can say something so dramatically different from the est science (provided by the IPCC)?” He added, “IPCC estimates a foot, Gore tops them 20 times.”

Gore’s prediction that if Greenland melted or broke up and slipped into the sea or if half of Greenland and half of Antarctica id the same thing..." Uh, no, the figures Gore gives for what would happen IF THE ICE SHEETS MELT are completely in line with what the IPCC says would happen IF THE ICE SHEETS MELT. The lower figure Lomborg cites is from the part of the report that excludes the contribution of ice sheet melting, and says so in very clear language. Mr. Gore is not being dishonest by citing a section of the report that Mr. Lomborg would prefer didn't exist.

I'm sure "climate change skeptics" are going to approach Lomborg's claims will all the gullibility we've come to expect form them.

David B | March 21, 2007, 2:35pm | #

Al Gore and Environmentalism are distractions. As the mass media creates 'climate' illusions, Big Brother clamps down by opening our mail, suspending habeas corpus, stealing private lands, banning books like "America Deceived" from Wiki, rigging elections, conducting warrantless wiretaps and starting wars based on blatant lies. Soon, the sinking of an Aircraft Carrier(by Mossad) will occur and the US will 'retaliate' against Iran. Which AIPAC-lobbying country benefit's from that? How much will the environment matter after a Nuke attack on Iran? Not much. Stop Iraq, Prevent Iran then work on the environment.
Last link (before Google Books bends to gov't Will and drops the title):
America Deceived (sample chps)

steveintheknow | March 21, 2007, 2:38pm | #

Heresy. Off with his head!

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 2:40pm | #

joe,

Do you have any evidence that Lomborg is actually "dishonest?"

Guy Montag | March 21, 2007, 2:41pm | #

Don't forget the killer bees! You guys keep letting this AGW crap get in the way of the killer bee problem. Well, unless they are related . . .

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 2:48pm | #

joe,

And of course Lomborg didn't claim as far as I can tell (at least in the language we see above) that Gore was being dishonest.

Anyway, since you are apparently well versed on the IPCC report why don't you link to the relevant sections so we can read them?

JasonL | March 21, 2007, 2:48pm | #

joe:

Did you hear the bit on NPR this morning about consensus scientific discomfort with the extreme nature of Gore's presentation? I'm not talking Lomborg (who is not really dishonest here, I don't thing) or whassname from MIT, but an NPR science correspondent talking about IPCC scientist concerns with Gore's presentation.

The argument was basically that he takes the extreme data point of possibility and presents as though it were a mid range estimate or a most likely outcome. He also was accused of overstating certainty. In other words, the charge is that he's doing exactly what he accused the other side of doing, just in the opposite direction.

Art | March 21, 2007, 2:49pm | #

Let's see, who should we believe:
Al, former vice president and jounalism professor from Columbia University. Making believe there should be a "free" market on air, or

Bjorn, decades as an environmental scientist, whose book, "The Skeptical Environmentalist," is an absolute breath of fresh air. Bjorn actually looks at the facts to tell us things are better than we are being told and even pushes for a somewhat libertarian (sometimes not) philosophy.

Did I miss the last 20 years or have we not spent billions of dollars already on energy star appliancnces, replacing our windows with thermal plane glass, insulating our homes, tripled the gas mileage on our cars and spent thousands of hours sorting out our trash.

Just not good enough for Al and his cohorts.
Joe, you really are missing the boat on this one.

joe | March 21, 2007, 2:49pm | #

Grotius,

You mean besides the two rather flagrant misrepresentations I pointed out?

sage | March 21, 2007, 2:51pm | #

Normally I don't take too much stock in something from National Review, but this paragraph really put the screws to Gore:

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZjczMzczMWRkZGM5Yzc5MzA0NjVhNWY4MDc4ZDNlNDA=

"The biggest blow to the climate catastrophists is not any scientific problem, but the hypocrisy of Gore and his Hollywood cheering section, whose profligate energy use cannot be mitigated in the popular mind through “carbon offsets,” even if such offsets worked as advertised. Liberals in the 1960s and 1970s never comprehended how damaging “limousine liberalism” was to their cause. They seem even more oblivious to the self-inflicted wounds of “Gulfstream liberalism.” Whatever the intricacies of climate science, middle-class citizens understand that Gore wants them to use less energy and pay more for it, while he and his Hollywood pals use as much as they want and buy their way out of guilt, like a medieval indulgence. In the companion book to An Inconvenient Truth, Gore writes that “a good way to reduce the amount of energy you use is simply to buy less. Before making a purchase, ask yourself if you really need it.” Gore decided that he does need it — for all four of his homes and his pool house."

Ouch. Put your peanut butter on that!

mediageek | March 21, 2007, 2:52pm | #

Joe, I don't know that all of the facts are in on AGW. Not sure I believe it.

GILMORE | March 21, 2007, 2:53pm | #

BAILEY:

What, no disclaimer??

joe:

Oh, come on... "Rapid change?" This shit takes 100years to happen. It's no "Day After Tomorrow".

The guy (lombord), on par, is more 'honest', not being a freaking self-serving politician. That much should be obvious...even to a true believer like you

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 2:54pm | #

joe,

Are you suggesting that we're simply supposed to take your claims at face value?

R C Dean | March 21, 2007, 2:56pm | #

joe, who said anything about change so rapid we couldn't adapt? I thought we were talking change over decades here. I mean, all we have to do to forestall "heat deaths" is install some insulation and airconditioning.

And why shouldn't we factor in reduced deaths due to cold while we are totalling up increased deaths due to heat?

What "dishonesty" or a "misrepresentation" did Lomborg commit in pointing out a fact about relative heat v. cold deaths now, and asking what the net death toll under global warming would be?

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 2:57pm | #

joe,

Anyway, say you are right and that Lomborg's analysis is in error. That says very little about Lomborg's actual state of mind. People are often both honest and wrong at the same time in other words.

joe | March 21, 2007, 2:57pm | #

Uh, yeah, National Review's campaign advice to Democrats is always such a font of wisdom.

It's funny, you see conservatives raise four complaints about environmentalist reforms:

1. They're coercive, not voluntary.

2. They're one-size-fits-all, not tailored to individual situations.

3. They harm the economy.

4. They don't utilize the profit motive to create a market for the changes they'd like to see.

So Gore starts taking money out of his own pocket to subsidize a clean energy project in Europe - a voluntary measure, tailored to his own situation, that doesn't harm the economy in any way whatwsoever, and that serves to create a market for clean power - and he's accused for hypocrisy for not adopting positions that National Review is just sure all environmentalists really support.

You know what I think? I think National Review is just looking to bash Democrats and environmentalists, and any connection to a legitimate, principled, fact-based argument is purely coincidental.

steveintheknow | March 21, 2007, 2:57pm | #

Lomborg, I only got one thing to say to you. And it goes a little somthin' like this. A one, a two, a one two three...


Have I been sleeping?
I’ve been so still
Afraid of crumbling
Have I been careless?
Dismissing all the distant rumblings
Take me where I am supposed to be
To comprehend the things that I can’t see

Cause I need to move
I need to wake up
I need to change
I need to shake up
I need to speak out
Something’s got to break up
I’ve been asleep
And I need to wake up
Now

And as a child
I danced like it was 1999
My dreams were wild
The promise of this new world
Would be mine
Now I am throwing off the carelessness of youth
To listen to an inconvenient truth

That I need to move
I need to wake up
I need to change
[ Lyrics found on http://www.metrolyrics.com ]

I need to shake up
I need to speak out
Something’s got to break up
I’ve been asleep
And I need to wake up
Now

I am not an island
I am not alone
I am my intentions
Trapped here in this flesh and bone

And I need to move
I need to wake up
I need to change
I need to shake up
I need to speak out
Something’s got to break up
I’ve been asleep
And I need to wake up
Now

I want to change
I need to shake up
I need to speak out
Oh, Something’s got to break up
I’ve been asleep
And I need to wake up
Now

joe | March 21, 2007, 2:58pm | #

A change of five degrees in less than a century is rapid. Read up on the vikings in Greenland.

mediageek | March 21, 2007, 3:01pm | #

"You know what I think? I think National Review is just looking to bash Democrats and environmentalists, and any connection to a legitimate, principled, fact-based argument is purely coincidental."

Joe, I have to disagree. National Review has a long history of supporting conservation and ecology.

ed | March 21, 2007, 3:01pm | #

when people are living in climates their habits and settlements aren't prepared for, due to rapid change

joe, you're a friggin' idiot. Yep, these people will wake up one morning with ocean waves lapping at their doors. Sheesh.

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 3:02pm | #

No one knows and no one can wholely accurately predict what sort of rise in temperature we will see over the next fifty to hundred years. Indeed, that seems to be the primary argument amongst climate scientists these days.

timothywest | March 21, 2007, 3:03pm | #

all purposeful distractions from the fact that the USA is in receivership, heading towards bankruptcy.

the next great global depression is heading here much faster than global warming is....and being ignored much more.

joe | March 21, 2007, 3:04pm | #

ed, you tool, the peak levels of extreme events getting higher and higher is exactly how a gradual change first manifests itself.

Cripes, haven't you ever visited a beach?

idiot

joe | March 21, 2007, 3:05pm | #

"No one knows and no one can wholely accurately predict what sort of rise in temperature we will see over the next fifty to hundred years. Indeed, that seems to be the primary argument amongst climate scientists these days."

And yet the vast majority can agree on a range, and the extent of that range keeps shrinking as their level of knowledge increases.

What does that suggest to you?

Lance Manly | March 21, 2007, 3:06pm | #

Dude , joe is like totally gay for this Gore guy.

Ken Shultz | March 21, 2007, 3:06pm | #

Quibble about the details, joe, but surely you'll concede that Al Gore is engaging is some seriously fabulous fear mongering?

It's like listening to some Bush Administration propagandist talking about how Al Qaeda's going to ruin the American way of life.

...if we don't invade Iraq. ...if we aren't sufficiently scared. ...if we don't let Bush's people fiddle with our constitutional rights...

I'm not saying that Al Qaeda isn't a threat, and I'm not saying that global warming isn't a problem. I think Gore must have stolen a page from some Chaney speech about how our children's children will feel about us after what's sure to happen next. ...unless we do what we're told!

It's the same freakin' pitch.

If we don't wreck the economy, it's going to wreck the economy? ...that's the pitch--and we're quibbling about the details?

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 3:07pm | #

Anyway, there is obviously a range of predictions in the IPCC statement. Now some areas of the range are more apparently "likely" than others (according to what climate scientists have so far discovered), but the fact at a range exists should elicit caution at the very least.

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 3:10pm | #

Ken Shultz,

That's an interesting comparison.

Ken Shultz | March 21, 2007, 3:12pm | #

"I think Gore must have stolen a page from some Chaney speech about how our children's children will feel about us after what's sure to happen next. ...unless we do what we're told!"

I suppose I should actually credit Harold Hill.

"Our children's children gonna have trouble, trouble, trouble..."

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 3:12pm | #

Maybe I ought to buy Lomborg's book now.

mediageek | March 21, 2007, 3:12pm | #

What I don't understand is how Lomborg's lack of acknowledging the most dire predictions in his press release somehow equates to his being a complete liar.

Seems a bit of a leap one can only make from a tremendously partisan platform.

D.A. Ridgely | March 21, 2007, 3:14pm | #

Uh, no, that we suspect there will be more weather-related deaths when people are living in climates their habits and settlements aren't prepared for, due to rapid change, tells us that we have somewhat of a clue about how human beings operate.

Aha! That explains why, unlike most other species, human being are incapable of adapting to hot or cold climates which is why we all live in San Diego.

BrianTerrel | March 21, 2007, 3:15pm | #

Joe, it seems to me you missed this part:

sea levels worldwide would increase between 18 and 20 feet, Lomborg said, is “simply positing a hypothetical and then in full graphic and gory detail showing us what – hypothetically – would happen to Miami, San Francisco, Amsterdam, Beijing, Shanghai, Dhaka and then New York.”

Lumborg isn't saying that Gore is wrong about what would happen in the case of a catastrophic melt off, he's saying is is misguided to present that as a likely scenario when it is really a worst case scenario.

You tell us that the IPCC information is in line with Gore on the magnitude of sea level change given an ice sheet melt off, but does the IPCC give a similar impression of the likelyhood of that occuring?

Lumborg's claim boils down to "Gore offers a 20 foot sea level rise as the likely scenario, whereas the IPCC suggests 1/20th of that as the likely scenario".

I don't know if he is right or wrong, as I haven't read the reports myself and I don't have time to at the moment.

I do know that you haven't refuted that claim, or backed your claim that Lumborg is a hack. What you have done is claimed (without evidence) that Gore's hypothetical is in line with a hypothetical put forward by the IPCC, and in so doing you've missed the issue.

Guy Montag | March 21, 2007, 3:17pm | #

Al, former vice president and jounalism professor from Columbia University. Making believe there should be a "free" market on air

Don't leave out the rest of the resume:
Flunked out of Georgetown Law and Vanderbilt Divinity, gave us the "V" chip (after he invented the internet in Vietnam), gave his wife a platform for record censorship with the PMRC, and helped defeat Kyoto while he was for it.

fyodor | March 21, 2007, 3:18pm | #

I'll take Lomborg's point about the cold deaths in so far as it points out that there will likely be pros and cons to climate change the pros will to some degree mitigate the cons.

BUT, I'm very skeptical about the notion that the pros could outweigh the cons or are likely to mitigate them to any significant degree.

As a metaphor, consider that central planners may sometimes come up with a plan better than voluntary players in a free market and that lay people can sometimes come up with a better prediction than experts. Neither, however, is what we would ever expect to happen. Likewise, while it's possible that humans may have mal-adapted to the world in such a way that a random and fairly large and quick change may improve things for us, the better bet is that the change will make things worse. And a large and quick change could make things much worse.

Of course, further adaptation will mitigate the potentially harmful effects (as compared to a static model) as well, at least to some degree, at least for many of us....

joe | March 21, 2007, 3:19pm | #

DA,

What is it about the term "rapid" that confuses you? Ever look at the mortality rates of Europeans in America during the first five decades of their occupation? Yikes!

mediageek,

What makes Lomborg dishonest is his statement that Gore is contradicting the IPCC report. No, he is not - his statement about what will happen if ice sheets melt is right in line with the IPCC Report's statement about what will happen if the ice sheets melt, and Lomborg - you kmow, a guy called to testify before the Senate on climate change because of his expertise on the issue - knows damn well about that the lower figures he cites were arrived at by ignoring the effects of ice sheets melting.

mediageek | March 21, 2007, 3:21pm | #

Guy, don't forget that whole bit where Gore publicly cried over losing his father to smoking, while still owning and profiting from a tobacco farm.

thoreau | March 21, 2007, 3:21pm | #

Am I the only one who thinks it's kind of funny to hear a Scandanavian talk about deaths from cold?

As somebody who was born and raised in a cold climate where many people of Scandanavian stock live (Wisconsin), I thought it was a matter of pride to talk about how "We can take anything."

Yeah, yeah, extreme cold weather can indeed be deadly. Still, being from a cold climate he's supposed to pretend that cold weather is harmless. It's a matter of pride.

kohlrabi | March 21, 2007, 3:22pm | #

I'd wager that full gory and graphic detail of only the worst case scenario counts as a bit disingenuous. Joe didn't you criticize the claim that the economy would suffer from requiring seat belts? This is a bit like that, no? A gross exaggeration. Fear mongering, if you will?

mediageek | March 21, 2007, 3:24pm | #

T-

He's just getting his concern on for those of less hearty stock.

Pro Libertate | March 21, 2007, 3:24pm | #

Fear will keep them in line. Fear of this battlestation/global warming/WMDs/drugs/poverty/godless commies/heartless Christians.

joe | March 21, 2007, 3:24pm | #

Brian Terrell,

'Lumborg's claim boils down to "Gore offers a 20 foot sea level rise as the likely scenario, whereas the IPCC suggests 1/20th of that as the likely scenario".'

The IPCC doesn't suggest a 1 foot rise as the likely scenario. It suggests a 1 foot rise excluding the effects of ice sheet melting. It then acknowledges that this figure is too low, because there will be ice sheet melting, and goes on to give ranges of how much more sea level rise needs to be added onto that one foot because of said melting.

When Lomborg states that the IPCC report suggests a one foot rise, he is incorrectly reporting the contents of the study, and I have enough respect for his reading comprehension to conclude that he knows it.

D.A. Ridgely | March 21, 2007, 3:25pm | #

What is it about the term "rapid" that confuses you?

Probably the way you use it, joe.

Blue | March 21, 2007, 3:26pm | #

Bailey and Lomborg are tools of Big Lightbulb!

Jim Henley | March 21, 2007, 3:27pm | #

" . . . each year about 1.5 million people die from excessive cold in Europe . . . ?" Really?

Europe's estimated population is about 730 million. That's one out of 350 of them every year dying of cold.

I'm not saying it can't be true, but on the face of it, it's as bizarre a claim as any that Gore is making. Can anyone offer any substantiation?

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 3:27pm | #

thoreau,

Lomborg is from Denmark, not from Lapland. The minimum average temperature in a city like Copenhagen is in the 30s (F).

matth | March 21, 2007, 3:28pm | #

Hmmm, people move from Detroit to Atlanta all the time and don't die from the rapid climate change involved there.

Humans are a pretty adaptable species I guess.

D.A. Ridgely | March 21, 2007, 3:28pm | #

Ever look at the mortality rates of Europeans in America during the first five decades of their occupation? Yikes!

100%, just like today?

SugarFree | March 21, 2007, 3:28pm | #

You guys stop picking on joe. His religious beliefs are his own business. You don't taunt nuns to their face, do you?*

*Actually, I've always wondered about the whole "Bride of Christ" thing. If they are all brides of Christ, doesn't that make Jesus a massive polygamist?

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 3:29pm | #

thoreau,

In the winter that is.

joe | March 21, 2007, 3:29pm | #

Jim Henley,

I suspect that Lomborg is including, for example, people who have heart attacks shoveling snow. Deaths attributable to cold-weather events. Still, it would be good to see where he gets this figure.

bartman | March 21, 2007, 3:29pm | #

Joe;

A few years ago, I moved from the Canadian prairies to the shores of the Gulf of Arabia. But I'm yet to perish from this rather drastic and very rapid climate change.

Am I an anomoly? Or are humans actually adaptable?

steveintheknow | March 21, 2007, 3:30pm | #

the Danish are all a bunch of right wing nut-bags. We know this already, this should come as no suprise.

mediageek | March 21, 2007, 3:31pm | #

Joe, but does he have a requirement to address the worst case scenario, or is it better if he just addresses the most likely one?

rdkraus | March 21, 2007, 3:32pm | #

I've had a lot of respect for Lomborg ever since I read his book. He's a big government, environmentalist, so I shouldn't really be sympathetic to him. But he actually looks at environmental issues by looking at the facts, and not distorting them. Then he proposes solutions, many of which I disagree with. But at least I get the impression that he has some integrity, and that I can comfortably rely on him not to be deliberately deceiving me or the public. If there was an environmental group or movement with his integrity, I, along with many libertarians and conservatives, would support them; instead we get the Gore/fearmongers.

BrianTerrel | March 21, 2007, 3:33pm | #

Joe:

Good to know, that certainly paint's Mr. Lumborg in an unfavorable light.

Would you be so kind as to provide a link to this report re: ice sheets melting or perhaps the title so i can look it up later?

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 3:34pm | #

BrianTerrel,

Hey, I asked first! Wait your turn! ;)

joe | March 21, 2007, 3:34pm | #

matth,

"Hmmm, people move from Detroit to Atlanta all the time and don't die from the rapid climate change involved there."

And when they move to Atlanta, they move into housing built for the climate in Atlanta, in a city with infrastructure and services designed for the prevailing conditions in Atlanta.

Should the climate in Atlanta become like the climate in Ecuador, it will still have housing, infrastructure, etc. designed for the conditions of present-day Atlanta.

Jim Henley | March 21, 2007, 3:35pm | #

I suspect that Lomborg is including, for example, people who have heart attacks shoveling snow. Deaths attributable to cold-weather events. Still, it would be good to see where he gets this figure.
So like, car crashes on the ice and suchlike? Okay, I can sort of see it if I squint. Will we start attributing heart attacks while gardening the the heat, though? (I realize the anti-gardening lobby must already do this . . . )

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 3:36pm | #

joe,

What part of Ecuador? Ecuador's climate is pretty variable depending on where one is in the country.

joe | March 21, 2007, 3:36pm | #

D.A.,

"100%, just like today?" Are we supposed to conclude that your stance towards threats to human life is "We're all going to die sometime," or are you just giving up?

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 3:37pm | #

Jim Henley,

Consider how many cases of pneumonia and like illnesses are exacerbated by cold weather.

happyjuggler0 | March 21, 2007, 3:37pm | #

Joe,

The Vikings in Greenland died because things got too cold, not too warm. Warmth is great for life (witness tropical jungles, now more commonly known as "the rainforest"), not bad for it, while cold kills. One can argue that a gradual rise of 5 degrees in temperature over the course of a century is sudden, but only when taking a very long term framework. From the point of view of adjustment to temperature change, this is by no means too sudden to adjust to. Additionally it is a well advertised threat so people have an awfully long heads up warning that perhaps they ought to buy an airconditioner.

Finally, in case you haven't noticed, technology is much better suited to mitigating temperature changes today that it was a couple hundred years ago for the new American settlers, let alone for the Vikings in Greenland who died because of global cooling, not global warming. I am not aware of any society dying out because of global warming before.

I'm not saying that global warming is not something to be blase about, merely that the alarmism that you and Gore are engaged in hasn't been substantiated by either of you.

joe | March 21, 2007, 3:37pm | #

Fellas, typing "IPCC Report" into google isn't that hard.

What am I, your executive assistant?

Guy Montag | March 21, 2007, 3:38pm | #

i>Hmmm, people move from Detroit to Atlanta all the time and don't die from the rapid climate change involved there.

Don't forget those WWII bomber crews in un-pressurized aircraft. They went from hot to cold and back daily while defeating National Socialism.

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 3:39pm | #

joe,

The IPCC is a fairly large report as I recall. You've read it and thus can point us to the appropriate subheading presumably.

Jim Henley | March 21, 2007, 3:40pm | #

When we're talking about adaptability, though, we're really talking about how some very poor people in already hot and marginal low-lying areas will handle warming, no? The issue isn't really how French or American middle classes living inland will "adapt."

Here's where the non-denialist argument that it's more important to allow the poor of the world to get richer - through trade and industrialization - than to try to mitigate temperature rises in ways that will tend to keep people poor, is strongest, IMHO. It at least hasn't been refuted yet.

D.A. Ridgely | March 21, 2007, 3:40pm | #

Should the climate in Atlanta become like the climate in Ecuador, it will still have housing, infrastructure, etc. designed for the conditions of present-day Atlanta.

And this will happen "rapidly" (practically overnight!) and none of the people will be able or permitted to leave and there's no possibility of installing insulation or air conditioning or heating systems into any of those houses and they're all going to die, die, DIE!

Are we supposed to conclude that your stance towards threats to human life is "We're all going to die sometime," or are you just giving up?

Well, you can if you want. A more reasonable interpretation of my response would be (1) the comment I was responding to was poorly worded and I enjoy making fun of you when you do that and (2) pulling mortality rates from the 1600s is just a tad disingenuous because, sheesh, see above.

joe | March 21, 2007, 3:40pm | #

happyjuggler,

"The Vikings in Greenland died because things got too cold, not too warm."

No, the Viking colony in Greenlhand died out because things changed too rapidly. As others have pointed out (though failing to grasp the implication), people can live in widely divergent climate conditions. People continued to live in Greenland after there were no more Vikings - people whose socieites had millenia of experience in living in those conditions, and who were subsequently prepared, in their physical culture and practices, to thrive in that climate.

Guy Montag | March 21, 2007, 3:42pm | #

Will we start attributing heart attacks while gardening the the heat, though? (I realize the anti-gardening lobby must already do this . . . )

I heard of a drummer expiring from a freak gardening accident. It was in a Rob Ryner documentry I think.

joe | March 21, 2007, 3:43pm | #

Ah, I see. We have the technology to painlessly adapt to changing climate, but the idea that technology can reduce our greenhouse gas output without causing us all to DIE DIE DIE and "freeze in the dark" is crazy talk.

'Kay.

Matt L | March 21, 2007, 3:43pm | #

And when they move to Atlanta, they move into housing built for the climate in Atlanta, in a city with infrastructure and services designed for the prevailing conditions in Atlanta.

Should the climate in Atlanta become like the climate in Ecuador, it will still have housing, infrastructure, etc. designed for the conditions of present-day Atlanta.


I would guess, based on my experience, that it's easier to adapt buildings infrastructure to a warmer climate that to a colder climate. Freezing temperature can do serious damage to structures that aren't designed to withstand continuous cold weather. A change to a warmer climate shouldn't be as difficult to deal with.

Jim Henley | March 21, 2007, 3:43pm | #

Consider how many cases of pneumonia and like illnesses are exacerbated by cold weather.
Sure. Then I'll also consider how pest-borne diseases like malaria and sleeping sickness are exacerbated by warm weather. Or let's say 50 years from now water mocassins have taken to the streams of Pennsylvania and New York and there are scorpions in Poland. There will be a marginal increase in "deaths due to heat" from that too.

If we get creative about it, we can attribute all kinds of death's to cold weather. Fair's fair. But I'm not sure that Lomborg is being equally creative on both sides of the excess deaths ledger.

hunter | March 21, 2007, 3:44pm | #

Joe, this arguement of yours is frankly dishonest, the top end, worst case scenario for sea level rise in the 4th assesment is 10-23 inches. The IPCC does not include ice sheet melting in the estimate because "Understanding of these processes is limited and there is no consensus on their magnitude." The Third assesment, which did include ice sheets in the models gives a top end of only 3 feet. So Gore is off the reservation scientifically at 20 and your recourse to the IPCC is either based in ignorance or mendacity as even a quick wiki search can confirm.

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 3:44pm | #

joe,

The basic problem with the Greenland colony is that had very little to offer the outside world. Even when the climate made the region comparatively warm it was a backwater. That and there were technological issues associated with trade between Greenland and Europe - mainly that the ships involved were small and didn't have more accurate navigational equipment (indeed, if you read the sagas you'll note that it was common for sailors to get lost for days or more and often never to return).

joe | March 21, 2007, 3:44pm | #

"And this will happen "rapidly" (practically overnight!) and none of the people will be able or permitted to leave and there's no possibility of installing insulation or air conditioning or heating systems into any of those houses and they're all going to die, die, DIE!"

They have therapies and medication for panic attacks these days.

Guy Montag | March 21, 2007, 3:45pm | #

So Gore is off the reservation

So, now we are back to the Columbus thread? ACK!

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 3:46pm | #

Jim Henley,

These are exactly the sort of factors that epidemiologists look at. Lomborg isn't doing something unusual or unique.

hunter | March 21, 2007, 3:47pm | #

Crap, and the vikings too! Sorry about that.

thoreau | March 21, 2007, 3:47pm | #

Regarding the 1.5 million winter-related deaths in Europe:

I suppose that in addition to those who froze to death and deaths from snow shoveling and other obvious winter-related deaths we could look at diseases that have some sort of seasonal correlation or are exacerbated during winter.

e.g. Cold and flu season can be deadly for elderly folks. And it wouldn't shock me if having to stay inside for a few months due to cold and ice and frail bones exacerbates certain diseases of the elderly.

But while milder winters might somewhat alleviate the worst of the flu season, I doubt the effect will be big. For instance, even southern California has a winter flu season (trust me, I lived there), albeit not as bad as, say, Maine or Alaska. So talking about 1.5 million winter-related deaths seems a bit misleading. Especially since there's no way that global warming will turn Oslo into Athens.

Also, it doesn't seem particularly helpful to compare on the one hand tropical diseases and floods and whatnot (things that can have significant effects on all age brackets) and on the other hand a slight reduction in illnesses that predominantly afflict the elderly. When you start talking about life years lost and economic impact (things that sound cold and cruel to those with grandparents, but are nonetheless difficult and pertinent realities). you have to be careful with what you're comparing.

Mind you, I'm not here to offer any particular estimates of deaths from floods or tropical diseases or whatever else. But when some guy steps forward to act as the voice of reason, to counter what he claims is fear mongering, and then tosses out a horrifying number that is missing a lot of context, I'm not going to be impressed. The best response that he can hope for is a Cathy Young-esque "Well, looks like both sides have their fear mongers." (That's the best response. The worst response, at least from his perspective, is that I might take the other side more seriously.)

In other words, guys, if you want to call Al Gore a fear-monger, well, fine. But don't swallow everything said by those who disagree with him. That number on winter-related deaths stinks like a corpse floating in a malaria-infested swamp.

thoreau | March 21, 2007, 3:48pm | #

Shorter version:

What Jim Henley said.

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 3:50pm | #

joe,

BTW, if you ever get a chance to read them the Icelandic and Norse sagas are great yarns.

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 3:52pm | #

thoreau,

Or not.

But when some guy steps forward to act as the voice of reason, to counter what he claims is fear mongering, and then tosses out a horrifying number that is missing a lot of context, I'm not going to be impressed.

Wouldn't the context presumably be in his written report?

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 3:53pm | #

thoreau,

In other words, read this:

Lomborg's whole press release and his complete formal testimony can be downloaded from the Copenhagen Consensus Center.

Gimme Back My Dog | March 21, 2007, 3:53pm | #

What am I, your executive assistant?

Well, you do seem to have plenty of spare time today.

jake | March 21, 2007, 3:53pm | #

your recourse to the IPCC is either based in ignorance or mendacity as even a quick wiki search can confirm

This is standard practice for joe.

Refer to content outside the thread.

Refuse to provide summaries of the arguments made in this outside content.

Refuse to provide links, and tell people you use Google.

This is joe's way of lying without having the guts to actually type false statements.

There is little point in discussing any topic with joe because of his penchant for such dishonesty.

thoreau | March 21, 2007, 3:54pm | #

Here's where the non-denialist argument that it's more important to allow the poor of the world to get richer - through trade and industrialization - than to try to mitigate temperature rises in ways that will tend to keep people poor, is strongest, IMHO. It at least hasn't been refuted yet.

Ah, but that sort of argument requires careful reasoning and a willingness to deal with the complexities of the real world.

Denialist arguments are so much more fun! "Hey, look: I did some creative death accounting on one side of the ledger and applied some really stubborn and selective skepticism on the other side, and I came up with numbers that contradict somebody who said something worrisome. Whoo-hoo!"

Gilbert Martin | March 21, 2007, 3:54pm | #

I don't know why all you people let Joe get to you.

Like Gore, he's not an authority on global warming or anything else - he's just a liberal.

thoreau | March 21, 2007, 3:56pm | #

We've already got Jim kicking ass in this thread, with me offering long-winded but weak support. All we need is for Mona to join us and none shall be able to withstand our Unqualified Postings!

:)

Pro Libertate | March 21, 2007, 3:58pm | #

I doubt anyone here objects to using technology to make our use of energy more efficient, to reduce the pollution caused by energy production, or to otherwise mitigate any effects that human populations have on the environment. However, Gore and others like him are using many extreme examples to advocate rather radical changes imposed by government. That's a problem, not just because some of us see the government as a bogey man, but because its ability to anticipate new technologies and adapt to change is horrifically bad.

Furthermore, what if technological solutions don't end up supplying us that 90% reduction? What then? Zod's solution? I'm a technology optimist and think that things in the West are going in the right direction without Gore or any other politician's help, but I fear mandates of this kind. And there is absolutely no one who can say for sure that this warming trend will continue at the same level. I'd prefer a little more certainty before we issue any absolute and mandated solutions. Until such time, why not use technology to improve things? That's fine, and there are a multitude of reasons to pursue more efficient and cleaner energy alternatives. And maybe letting the rest of the world catch up to the West's standard of living would do even more to improve things.

thoreau,

I, too, miss some of the old posters, crazy or otherwise. Things have changed, man, with all of these Hit & Run whippersnappers.

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 4:00pm | #

Anyway, I'll be reading the entirity of Lomborg's statement now.

thoreau | March 21, 2007, 4:01pm | #

Yes, PL, but the Unqualified Offerings alliance between me, Jim, and Mona is of fairly recent vintage. We kick ass!

JasonL | March 21, 2007, 4:01pm | #

thoreau:

I don't like the exaggeration, but there is a bit of hypocrisy to its current form.

The guy asking us to spend bazillions necessarily has a higher bar. You can't mount a crusade about selective use of data by your opponents, then throw out selective data of your own. This cuts both ways, but only one of the two camps is reaching into your wallet.

thoreau | March 21, 2007, 4:03pm | #

The guy asking us to spend bazillions necessarily has a higher bar.

Which makes it all the more crucial that his critics argue honestly, so that he isn't able to score easy points.

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 4:04pm | #

JasonL,

Lomborg isn't being selective from what I can tell.

thoreau | March 21, 2007, 4:05pm | #

In other words, I believe that if a case is worth making then it's worth making right. You don't get to say "But look how important this is!" or "Look how dangerous the other guy's ideas are!" as an excuse to ignore sloppiness by the enemy of your enemy. My response will be "OK, you claim it's crucial that this guy's arguments be refuted, but it's not crucial enough to do it honestly?"

The same might be said in certain other contexts: "But we had to do something!" is never an excuse for incompetence, dishonesty, and such.

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 4:05pm | #

thoreau,

Have you read Lomborg's full report?

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 4:07pm | #

thoreau,

Until you have, you really need to get off the particular high horse you are sitting on right now.

JasonL | March 21, 2007, 4:07pm | #

grotius:

My read is that the use of cold weather deaths is at least questionable. I don't find the rest of his report exaggerated in the same way joe does.

joe | March 21, 2007, 4:08pm | #

hunter,

From the February 2 IPCC release:

"Global average sea level in the last interglacial period (about 125,000 years ago) was likely 4 to 6 m higher than during the 20th century, mainly due to the retreat of polar ice. Ice core data indicate that average polartemperatures at that time were 3 to 5°C higher than present, because of differences in the Earth’s orbit. The Greenland ice sheet and other Arctic ice fields likely contributed no more than 4 m of the observed sea level
rise. There may also have been a contribution from Antarctica."

Keeping in mind that a 3-5 degree increase in temperature is within the range of plausible temperature increases according to the report.

Memnon | March 21, 2007, 4:09pm | #

Thoreau, Lomborg is not a denialist. He
1) believes human CO2 output is causing global warming
2) believes some cutting of CO2 production would be beneficial to humanity without harming humanity more by hurting the development and economic growth which might save untold millions
3) proposes best-practice guidance gor environmental spending
4) thinks scare-mongering hurts the environment and humanity by emphasising catastrophic outcomes on all fronts, making rational choice of action impossible.

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 4:10pm | #

JasonL,

Then that is a bad read. I took a course that and epi component once and in my experience that sort of thing doesn't seem outside the bounds of we talked about in class (though we never discussed this particular issue).

joe | March 21, 2007, 4:12pm | #

jake,

Oooooooh, that quote I posted has got to hurt!
I believe "pwned" is the term the kids are using these days, asshat.

But I like Gilbert Martin's comment best: "I don't know why all you people let Joe get to you. bLike Gore, he's not an authority on global warming or anything else - he's just a liberal."

Pretty much sums up the denialist argument.

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 4:13pm | #

Memnon,

Anyone who read Lomborg's full report could pretty easily grasp that Lomborg doesn't denial anthropogenic climate change. Especially since on pg. 2 he clearly states in a subject heading (in bold) that:

Global warming is real and man-made

wally the bird | March 21, 2007, 4:14pm | #

And all this time AL GORE is telling us to save energy he himself is using up all that to go all over the world and blabber about this global warming fruad i mean this whole thing its the biggest fruad ever and the fact is school text books are also spreading this same lie about global warming and even this rant against the INTERNAL COMBUTION ENGINE and now that liar gare wants to inact tese same greenhouse junk science on us all. AL GORE IS ADANGEROUS RADICAL ZELOT AS RADICAL AS ANY AL QUEDA FANATIC HE WOULD MAKE BIN LADEN LOOK MILD IN COMPAASON

JasonL | March 21, 2007, 4:14pm | #

I think David Friedman's point is salient here. It is insane to try to draw a picture of human life on Earth one century from now.

Really. Look back at 1907 and try to have this same discussion about any feature of life at the time by projecting forward in a "if we don't change our ways" manner.

jake | March 21, 2007, 4:18pm | #

Oooooooh, that quote I posted has got to hurt!

First time I've ever seen you do that in direct response to a request to provide the content you are referencing.

I suppose people should point out your dishonesty on a regular basis.

thoreau | March 21, 2007, 4:22pm | #

Yes, Grotius, I read the relevant section of the report. Footnote 12 says that numbers from reference 10 were extrapolated to the rest of Europe using the methods of footnote 11. That sort of extrapolation, for a geography-sensitive phenomenon seems questionable, but we'll leave that aside for now. Reference 10 is a BBC synopsis of a government report, and does not give any guidance on the extent to which winter-related deaths would be alleviated by global climate change (since there will still be a winter flu season, even if a less nasty one).

When one person predicts a certain number of additional fatalities, the way to refute it is to either challenge the basis of the prediction (e.g. the underlying climate model and estimates from it) or talk about an offsetting phenomenon. Talking about 1.5 million winter deaths currently, without offering a prediction for the extent to which those numbers will change as a result of warming, does not provide any basis for comparing predicted body counts.

The report also implies that most of those winter fatalities occur among the elderly. As I alluded to in my post earlier, we need to consider the distribution of deaths and number of years lost. Dying of pneumonia at age 85 instead of age 86 is not the same as dying 40 years prematurely in a flood. So not only does he not address the change in winter fatalities as a result of warming, he doesn't address the number of life years lost (which may sound like a cold-blooded thing to talk about, but when talking about social and economic impacts it is very relevant.)

So yes, I did read the report, and my horse is no higher than the one you mount with your air of never worrying about anything.

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 4:23pm | #

Lomborg's discussion of heat and cold deaths is on pg. 3-4 of his report. It isn't on its face an unreasonable discussion of the issue.

thoreau | March 21, 2007, 4:25pm | #

I'm not here to persuade anybody to believe in anthropogenic global warming or embrace any proposed solution or anything like that. I'm here as a scientist to say that some of Lomborg's statements strike me as fishy.

If you think somebody's ideas are dangerous and costly, make damn sure that you counter them with good arguments that leave no room for the opposition to score cheap points. Otherwise you might as well take aim at your own foot and squeeze the trigger.

BTW, the stuff about marginal deaths involves the sort of "on the margin" thinking that microeconomists are famous for. I thought that we libertarians fancy ourselves experts on microeconomics.


One other thing: I stand corrected on the word "denialist." Lomborg does not deny the basic phenomenon, he only questions the effects. Fair enough, but I still think his arguments about the effects are fishy.

joe | March 21, 2007, 4:25pm | #

jake, it is not dishonest to provide accurate information and tell your opponents to do their own research. Just lazy.

Jake Boone | March 21, 2007, 4:26pm | #

It's not haiku day
But each global warming thread
Should have at least one

thoreau | March 21, 2007, 4:26pm | #

Yes, I read pages 3 and 4. I even checked out the footnotes and skimmed a reference.

Next!

Matt L | March 21, 2007, 4:26pm | #

Really. Look back at 1907 and try to have this same discussion about any feature of life at the time by projecting forward in a "if we don't change our ways" manner.

Global warming alarmists were treated quite differently in 1907.

http://divisionoflabour.com/archives/003505.php

HT: divisionoflabour.com

jake | March 21, 2007, 4:26pm | #

"Global average sea level in the last interglacial period (about 125,000 years ago) was likely 4 to 6 m higher than during the 20th century, mainly due to the retreat of polar ice. Ice core data indicate that average polartemperatures at that time were 3 to 5°C higher than present, because of differences in the Earth’s orbit. The Greenland ice sheet and other Arctic ice fields likely contributed no more than 4 m of the observed sea level
rise. There may also have been a contribution from Antarctica."


So now please explain how this past warming event occurred before mankind had the ability to artificially raise the average temperature of the atmosphere.

Please explain how we know that the current warming trend is actually caused by human intervention as opposed to another iteration of the last naturally occurring hot spell.

Please explain how we can reverse the current warming trend without destroying the economies of all the developed world if we really are the cause of the current trend.

Please prove that the consequences of letting the warming trend continue are actually worse for mankind that the consequences of trying to reverse the trend.

grylliade | March 21, 2007, 4:28pm | #

joe,

Using the Greenland colony as an argument is wrong. The colony was marginal at the best of times; probably the only thing that made European colonization possible was the medieval warm period, and when the climate changed back that was the end for the colony. To compare a marginal settlement that was just scraping by at the best of times to modern Europe is just silly. Using European colonies in North America is just as wrong. Again, you're comparing people who were just scraping by at the best of times for half a century or so to modern societies who have wealth to throw around on jetting celebrities around the world. We can adapt. It might not be the best thing to do, but we can adapt.

You also cite a climate change figure of five degrees (I'm guessing Celsius) over the next century. That is near the top end of the projected change. Three degrees is the actual most likely projection. If you read the IPCC report, you'll see that.

The whole controversy now is over what to do about global warming. You keep on insisting that there is no discussion on this topic, which is I think dishonest. Maybe that's the way you feel, but there are many issues to be decided here. Firstly, if you want to defer to experts, defer to economists here. Scaremongering that preventing climate change through emissions reduction is certainly wrong; saying that emissions reduction isn't the most cost-effective way may be wrong, but it's something to be discussed. Maybe emissions reduction is the only thing that will work. Maybe a mixture of emissions reduction and adaptation to higher temperatures will work better. Maybe it would be better to do nothing (though I doubt it).

To be honest, I think that it would be alright if we did nothing. The earth would warm (more than the deniers think, less than the doomsayers think), and we would adapt. Carbon-based fuel technology is probably already on its way out, for various reasons. By 2050, we'd have enough wealth and technical know-how to better address global warming in an intelligent way. If we want to be conservative, maybe it's best to start doing something about it now. But overreacting might do as much harm as underreacting. The earth can wait for five years while we look at the best evidence. It could probably wait for longer, but I wouldn't want the doomsayers to piss their pants waiting. Rather than jump into anything, why don't we make an intelligent, informed decision?

As an aside, I'm guessing that not much is going to be done about this. The "do nothing" scenario is likely to be tested; look at how much Europe is doing to comply with Kyoto, and Europe is the heart of the Green movement! Don't worry, though; the sky won't fall.

Max | March 21, 2007, 4:28pm | #

I'm not saying that Al Qaeda isn't a threat, and I'm not saying that global warming isn't a problem. I think Gore must have stolen a page from some Chaney speech about how our children's children will feel about us after what's sure to happen next. ...unless we do what we're told!

It's the same freakin' pitch.


I agree completely. There's a clear parallel between environmentalist arguments and warmonger arguments. Both try to create the perception that it's better to accept a certain disaster in the present than the possibility of a (worse) disaster in the distant future.

VM | March 21, 2007, 4:28pm | #

Dr.T: microeconomics only inasmuch as taught in Econ 79 (DEMAND KURV!)

but like the lingo you use, "back off, man. I'm a scientist"

oh yeah! :)

Jake how about this (grin):

man made warm cold warm
cold warm cold warm cold warm cold
warmer you moron!

Gilbert Martin | March 21, 2007, 4:29pm | #

"Pretty much sums up the denialist argument."

Nope.

I don't need an "argument".

The burden of proof is on those proposing the existence of something (global warnming or anything else).

I don't have to prove a negative.

And despite all the yakking about "consensus" -there is no proof. It is all theory and speculation.

So until the eco-chicken littles can prove cause and effect with the exact same degree of certainty that it can be proven that gasoline is a flammable substance, I don't need to pay them any heed.

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 4:29pm | #

thoreau,

Yes, Grotius, I read the relevant section of the report.

Before or after I asked you?

...with your air of never worrying about anything.

On what is this based exactly?

That sort of extrapolation, for a geography-sensitive phenomenon seems questionable, but we'll leave that aside for now.

He merely calls it a "reasonable estimate."

So not only does he not address the change in winter fatalities as a result of warming, he doesn't address the number of life years lost (which may sound like a cold-blooded thing to talk about, but when talking about social and economic impacts it is very relevant.)

Well, Lomborg is clearly not trying to do a full-scale analysis of the issue (indeed, he never claims that is the case). What he is trying to do is ask people to step back and start to figure out just how bad climate change might be.

joe | March 21, 2007, 4:30pm | #

jake,

No.

No.

No.

No.

The first two of your questions are answered in the IPCC Report, and that last two are unlikely to lead to productive conversation, given your obvious bias.

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 4:32pm | #

thoreau,

I stand corrected on the word "denialist." Lomborg does not deny the basic phenomenon, he only questions the effects. Fair enough, but I still think his arguments about the effects are fishy.

Since you made an erroneous claim with regard to the "denialist" claim, why should we put much stock in your other claims?

thoreau | March 21, 2007, 4:33pm | #

VM-

I thought that "on the margin" analysis was also important in more advanced economics courses as well. I remember marginal analysis in my senior-level econ classes as well as freshman classes, but I never took any grad econ.

Grotius | March 21, 2007, 4:36pm | #

thoreau,

...make damn sure that you counter them with good arguments...

In light of your denialist claim this statement is filled with some degree of irony.

jake | March 21, 2007, 4:39pm | #

No.

No.

No.

No.

The first two of your questions are answered in the IPCC Report, and that last two are unlikely to lead to productive conversation, given your obvious bias.


It is unfortunate then that the rest of the readers of the thread will be deprived of the benefit your research and analytical skills.

do cvidaniye joe

joe | March 21, 2007, 4:40pm | #

grylliade,

Were I predicting outcomes in modern European cities comparable to the extinction of the Greenland Norse and the death rates of the original Jamestown settlements, your criticisms would be valid. But I am not, so they are not.

There would certainly be a quantitative difference between those events and the likely effects of global warming on modern western cities, but that wasn't the question I was answering. Several commenters made the statement that climate change over several decades would be unlikely to have an effect, and I pointed out some real-world examples that proved different.

For the record, except for cities currently at or below sea level, I am not predicting suffering as serious as those faced by the Vikings in Greenland or the Jamestown colonists.

"You also cite a climate change figure of five degrees..." No, 3-5 degrees.

"The whole controversy now is over what to do about global warming." I wish that was true, but the comments on the thread simply do not back that up. If a single Senate seat was Republican instead of Democrat, the Senate Committee on the Environment and Public Works would be chaired by a man who says that global warming is "the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on mankind." We're talking about a party which commands the loyalty of about 50% of Americans.

The American public needs to have the reality of global warming driven home to them. At a certain