NSA Leaker Edward Snowden: "The U.S. Government is not going to be able to cover this up by jailing or murdering me."

The GuardianThe GuardianNSA leaker Edward Snowden is participating in a live chat with The Guardian right now. So far he hasn't revealed anything on the same order of magnitude as the Verizon story or the spying-on-foreign-leaders-during-G20 story, but he has said that more secrets are coming. 

Here are some particularly interesting exchanges between Snowden and staffers/readers of The Guardian

Q: How many sets of the documents you disclosed did you make, and how many different people have them? If anything happens to you, do they still exist?

Snowden: All I can say right now is the US Government is not going to be able to cover this up by jailing or murdering me. Truth is coming, and it cannot be stopped.

Q: Why did you just not fly direct to Iceland if that is your preferred country for asylum?

Snowden: Leaving the US was an incredible risk, as NSA employees must declare their foreign travel 30 days in advance and are monitored. There was a distinct possibility I would be interdicted en route, so I had to travel with no advance booking to a country with the cultural and legal framework to allow me to work without being immediately detained. Hong Kong provided that. Iceland could be pushed harder, quicker, before the public could have a chance to make their feelings known, and I would not put that past the current US administration.

Q: When you say "someone at NSA still has the content of your communications" - what do you mean? Do you mean they have a record of it, or the actual content?

Snowden: Both. If I target for example an email address, for example under FAA 702, and that email address sent something to you, Joe America, the analyst gets it. All of it. IPs, raw data, content, headers, attachments, everything. And it gets saved for a very long time - and can be extended further with waivers rather than warrants.

Read more at The Guardian

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  • Hugh Akston||

    the US Government is not going to be able to cover this up by jailing or murdering me.

    Not that they won't do those things anyway.

  • Hyperion||

    Not that it will make a difference. They don't even have to cover things up anymore, they just do whatever they want, admit to it(right after a few lies have failed) and the sheeples love it.

  • thibaud||

    You guys are being played.

    This foolish kid's delusions of grandeur would be comical had he not selected China as his latest venue for self-reinvention.

  • Fluffy||

    Hell, that's the fun part for them.

    If it covers something up, so much the better.

  • entropy||

    You can't say it won't work if you don't try.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    The NSA probably has enough Spec-Ops ninja on their payroll to be able to make him disappear.

    The problem with that would be the Chinese would be pissed if such a thing happened without their green light.

  • JW||

    Spec-Ops ninja on their payroll

    The IRS and Dept of Ed?

  • Anonymous Coward||

    The IRS would never employ ninja. Like the Romans, they like to make their victims an example to the rest of the peasants. And the bloodier they can make the lesson, the better, in their minds.

  • Let Me Ride||

    The only question right now is whether Snowden will be imprisoned for the rest of his life under inhumane conditions or if the US government will cut right to the chase and murder him.

    Land of the free!

  • SiliconDoc||

    I certainly hope an arrest trigger and a dead man's trigger - gigantic in both cases is at the ready.

    I am so sick of "responsible whistle blowers".

    After years of the USA screaming death has come to all our assets, they quietly admitted Manning's and Wiki's release harmed not a single hair.

    What we have here is a slaven borg of government dominated stooges "that have committed treason !"

    Can we have something of note for once ? Is there anything there ? Are any secrets they have so pathetic that showing them would really end it all ?
    We could all lol and go back to sleep while the government moves through it's predictable phases of pants on fire death hath overtaken us to "it didn't really affect anything".

    Worse yet, after any leak we are told it is all lies, then they admit to it, then they retract their admission to some extent and wobble back toward denial while claiming they are investigating themselves and will find out at some unknown future time and place what the facts really are.
    In any case it's high treason whatever the super redacted and 99.9% not shown documents say.

  • Almanian!||

    Of course, the good thing is - if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear. This traitor should be horsewhipped, put in chains, and sent to jail for a very long time. He's endangered lives and compromised the security of the US with his irresponsible moves. Plus - LIAR!

    /Cheney

  • sloopyinca||

    Of course, the good thing is - if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear. This traitor should be horsewhipped, put in chains, and sent to jail for a very long time. He's endangered lives and compromised the security of the US with his irresponsible moves. Plus - LIAR!

    /Cheney /Feinstein

  • Almanian!||

    IT'S OK WHEN MY TEAM DOES IT!

    /TEAM

  • Inigo M.||

    There's a big problem when you put partisanship ahead of principles. It's a shame that so many "true believers" on both sides don't seem to get that.

  • SiliconDoc||

    In the repubs case they are supposed to act like RCheney, we are screamed at this is their nature - always.

    In the democrats case they claim the opposite 100% of the time except when they are caught doing far worse,which is all the time now.

    So only in the democrats case is total and absolute hypocrisy on display.

  • sloopyinca||

    This guy has balls made of steel. He knows his life is basically forfeit what with the US government's lack of giving a shit who they murderdrone in the name of "fighting terrorism", but he still came forward with this earth-shattering information.

    I hope he gets out of this alive and keeps telling the world what the American government has been doing. Maybe it will be the new beginning of transparency, recognition of national sovereignty and respect for individual rights that has been rapidly declining in American for quite some time.

  • Matrix||

    No... another season of American Idol will start, and the zombies will forget all about it.

  • Hyperion||

    ^This^

  • Almanian!||

    SHUT UP THAT BRITISH PRINCESS IS HAVING A BABY ZOMFG!11!

  • Brett L||

    I question the fat Kardashian's timing with birthing her spawn.

  • sloopyinca||

    the fat Kardashian's

    Please be more specific next time. kthxbai

  • Brett L||

    You know, the gold-digger.

  • itsnotmeitsyou||

    Yeah, you know, the slutty one.

  • anon||

    Wait, is Kardashian an NSA employee?

  • sarcasmic||

    Meet the piece of ass he left behind.

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/mbvd/t.....eft-behind

  • anon||

    Yeah, she's absurdly hot.

  • sticks||

    Not seeing it. Skinny. She is skinny.

  • Logical 1||

    She looks like a dude in drag. Oh, maybe that's your definition of "absurdly hot"?

  • Locke||

    Eh she's kinda cute but no boobs at all

  • SiliconDoc||

    I don't see any chance any one of you detractors would turn it down under any circumstances, save one or three.

    My apologies if any of you are paralyzed from the waist down.

  • wwhorton||

    Little too skinny for me. I'm sort of more in the Christina Hendricks market. Although, what she's doing vis a vis that pole is definitely an argument for looking past the skinny.

  • JWatts||

    This.

  • MJGreen||

    Nobody gets out alive.

  • Rights-Minimalist Autocrat||

    I can't think of a guy with a bigger gap between "what his life should be like" and "what his life is actually like" right now.

  • Let Me Ride||

    Amen

  • John Jay.||

    I can think of several, but in each case the gap is in the opposite direction.

  • All-Seeing Monocle||

    Ha

  • A Frayed Knot||

    The whole travel answer makes no sense. First, he wasn't an NSA employee, he was a contractor. That said, yes, if you have a clearance, you're supposed to give 30 days notice for international travel. But clearly, he didn't and he was able to make it to Hong Kong with little trouble. So again, why couldn't he just fly to Iceland? And besides, had he given notice about going to Iceland of all places, no one probably would have batted an eyelash.

    It seems to me with all the leaks about the NSA's foreign activities, he's had other reasons for heading to the PRC, and he's not the great altruistic hero so many here make him out to be. We shall see.

  • Hyperion||

    Iceland have already said they wouldn't protect him. Maybe he was too smart to go there.

  • sloopyinca||

    Even though all of the evidence in this situation points to a criminal enterprise at the highest levels of government and those in the decision-making loop are not denying any of the substance of Snowden's claims, you are worrying about his motives?

    I don't care what his motives are. He's exposed a systematic evil undertaking by our government directly against us. He could dissect and eat a kitten on live TV for all I care. The story is and will continue to be much larger than what motivated him.

  • Fluffy||

    If he was a PRC spy, they would have taken his information, said "Thank you very much," paid him and sheltered him...and released none of it.

    The PRC isn't in it for a Pulitzer. Any information they get is more valuable to them if it's unreleased.

  • Almanian!||

    What Fluffy said

  • VG Zaytsev||

    Not only that but if he was selling info to the PRC for money we never would have heard his name, he would have just disappeared, maybe with a fake death to throw the dogs off the trail.

  • SiliconDoc||

    Yes, so 99% of our politicians and talking heads are incompetent idiots.

    That's how we got here, with mr no diploma and the digital keys to all their universes.

    They are so used to telling lies "that sound good" they haven't a clue any more when they are doing it, like 99% of the population.

  • A Frayed Knot||

    My concern is about what else he will leak regarding legitimate activities of the NSA. But the ends justify the means, right?

  • sloopyinca||

    But the ends justify the means, right?

    Not the means, per se, but they certainly justify any motives.

  • Hugh Akston||

    I know I stay up nights worrying about the poor, poor NSA being hindered in their ability to listen in on communications.

    What unconscionable monster could stand idly by and watch those noble public servants go wanting for massive amounts of ill-gotten information?

  • itsnotmeitsyou||

    "legitimate activities of the NSA" just doesn't hold sway at this point.

    I'm sure that there are some actual terrorists that they are keeping tabs on. They may even have helped in a few legit investigations. However, the abuses of the NSA need to see the light of day regardless of it affecting their ability to fight terrorism in the short term.

    The miniscule risk of being killed by a terrorist is nothing in comparison to the civil rights violations of our own government.

  • Mr. Soul||

    and I accept that risk. Since you cant trade privacy for security, i'll take less security please.

  • grey||

    WTF is legitimate NSA activities? If they tag it to the fight on terror, then its legitimate? Am I running short on sarcasm today or is Frayed serious?

  • PapayaSF||

    Oh, come on. The NSA is supposed to snoop on dangerous foreigners, and you don't have to be a statist to say that's legitimate. Even snooping on American communications with foreigners is OK with me and most people, as long as there is probable cause and warrants are obtained.

    What's not legitimate is sweeping, all-inclusive snooping on Americans. (E.g.: "Verizon, give us records of all calls.") Even with a warrant or national security letter or whatever, that's basically a general warrant of the sort the 4th amendment was written to prohibit.

  • JWatts||

    That pretty much sums up my stance. The NSA has a legitimate mission, the current escapades are just well beyond it.

  • JParker||

    The NSA is "supposed" to snoop on "dangerous foreigners" the same way that a hit man is "supposed" to kill his target. Both involve violating the rights of their victim, and neither is ethical.

    If you were to contend that governments have some special privilege to do so, then you are by definition a statist.

  • PapayaSF||

    "Gentlemen do not read other people's mail"? I thought that attitude went out after Pearl Harbor.

  • JWatts||

    The NSA is "supposed" to snoop on "dangerous foreigners" the same way...

    Let me finish that statement in a different fashion, that, in my opinion, makes for a better analogy:

    The NSA is "supposed" to snoop on "dangerous foreigners" the same way...... that the US Military is supposed to kill dangerous foreigners".

    That's the whole point of the US Military, indeed, the US military is specifically prohibited from being used inside of the US, because we as a country differentiate between foreign and domestic operations and behavior. So your argument against the NSA would apply equally towards the US Military.

  • Locke||

    Has anyone ever heard of Frayed before this thread or is our newest sockpuppet? Ohh maybe even an official government shill!

  • Logical 1||

    Legitimate activities of the NSA sounds like an oxymoron

  • SiliconDoc||

    I can hardly wait for the entire beanbag to spill open.

  • Fluffy||

    So what you're saying is that the guy who worked for the CIA and NSA and Booz and stole their secrets and escaped and is still at large knows less about this whole spy thing than you.

    Wasn't he already in Hawaii?

    Hawaii to Hong Kong direct sounds like a much safer bet to me than flying back through the continental US to get a connecting flight to Iceland. And going west to get to Iceland probably puts you through Heathrow, so that would be a bad bet too.

  • Almanian!||

    AGAIN what Fluffy said.

    Fluffy, you are OWNING this thread.

  • Let Me Ride||

    Few commenters own more threads than The Fluffer.

  • A Frayed Knot||

    Having met people from all 3 organizations you mentioned, I think you're overestimating his abilities. And I don't make any claim to know better than he does.

    In any case, I hope he enjoys Hong Kong, because he is going to be an honored guest of the PRC for quite a long time.

  • Rights-Minimalist Autocrat||

    Hong Kong is awesome.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    Having met people from all 3 organizations you mentioned, I think you're overestimating his abilities

    Right--a high school dropout manages to outflank and embarrass a bunch of TOP. MEN., and continues to do so, but we're supposed to think he isn't all that because you've happened to meet a bunch of the knob-gobblers he worked with.

  • Locke||

    I'm thinking Frayed IS a "TOP MAN"... Or am I just paranoid now?

  • SiliconDoc||

    All the raging govey teat suckers are power pointing their paycheck protection racket.

    There's 4.2 million of them according to the IG report in this site's other recent article.

    They all are afeared now - gravy train could be cut.
    A half trillion in paychecks and bennies makes for a lot of hog wild security at any cost freaks.

    I'd say INSOC did a fine job spreading out that half trillion - they have twice as many personal advocates as the entire Military.

  • tarran||

    It makes perfect sense:

    1) In iceland h wouldn't be able to work right off the bat and would be at the mercy of the Icelandic government for food and shelter.

    2) In Hong Kong, he can immediately get his own place and start earning money.

    3) The U.S. can lean on Iceland in a way that it can't lean on China. Basically China will have an easier time telling the big bad bully to go fuck himself. Additionally Hong Kong's autonomy within china adds further impediments to the Chinese government turning him over to the Americans.

    It's not perfectly safe, but it is a far less risky move to do it the way he did. BTW, Hong Kong is a non-stop flight from Hawaii. Iceland is not.

  • JeremyR||

    Also, Iceland is cold

  • anon||

    It seems to me with all the leaks about the NSA's foreign activities, he's had other reasons for heading to the PRC, and he's not the great altruistic hero so many here make him out to be. We shall see.

    Who cares what his motives are? He did something good for me. If he benefited in some way from it, that's a win-win. I suspect his benefit was a clean conscience.

  • SiliconDoc||

    The more they complain about how jealous they are and how he can't be as great ( like some reality TV lowlife with too much estrogen and anger ) " as he thinks he is ", they reveal their real inner thoughts in the matter ( he's some kind of massively brave hero ) despite being so sour pussed as to not ever be able to admit it - probably even to themselves.

    The guy has a lot more smarts than the other endless stream of whistle blowers who caved in directly to the punishing machine in the vain hope that the criminals they disagreed with surrounding them could control the real sickos on top and keep them safe, after near ENDLESS public news lessons.

    What really scares these CREEPS crawling from their shadows is this guy showed the world A NEW WAY TO BYPASS THE CORRUPT IN POWER OVERLORDS at least for a time, that would cost them time and effort, and drive them mad by showing the world they are NOT IN CONTROL all the time.

    That must really burn them up inside. Can you imagine how many have declared they will rape his GF then bring him "to justice" and then declare he will be raped over and over again -that's how our raging LEO wacks talk nowadays.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    Iceland could be pushed harder, quicker

    No kidding. If he had gone to Iceland, he would already be in CIA custody.

  • Let Me Ride||

    Truer words were never spoken. Iceland's entire population is roughly equivalent to that of Minneapolis.

  • JWatts||

    I don't understand why he didn't go to New Zealand. That would seem to be a better pick.

  • JeremyR||

    Er, Kim dot com? US got him there.

    Sure, there was a backlash, so it might not happen again, but you never know

  • sloopyinca||

    And think about this: this man who stood up for individual liberty will never have a Nobel Peace Prize, yet the man who ordered the vaporization of several people, many no more than tangentially linked to "terrorism" 10k miles away, who continued and expanded the surveillance state on America and the world and who was tried to jump into every conflict possible in order to deflect political criticism already has his.

    It's like we live in Bizarro-world. Bad-bye.

  • mad libertarian guy||

    yet the man who ordered the vaporization of several people

    Several?

  • VG Zaytsev||

    Several, thousands ....big dif, doesn't really matter until you get to seven figures.

  • PapayaSF||

    And, of course, while the government is busy sweeping up billions of phone records and targeting Tea Party and pro-Israel groups, Russia can call us up and say: "Hey, we think this guy Tsarnaev is a terrorist," but that information somehow falls through the cracks. After all, Chechnyan Muslims are less of a threat than non-profits with the word "Patriots" in their name, right?

  • JWatts||

    After all, Chechnyan Muslims are less of a threat than non-profits with the word "Patriots" in their name, right?

    Hell yes they are. The Tsarnaev brothers only killed and maimed a few dozen bystanders and runners. The Patriot groups threatened President Obama's re-election efforts.

    Obviously, the latter was a far more important and serious threat.

  • Adam330||

    What are the chances that this guy is essentially a front for someone on the inside with considerably more access? How is it that a guy who worked there for what, 90 days, was able to get this much information out of their systems? Is NSA security just that bad?

  • Fluffy||

    Wasn't he a major IT security guy?

    He probably only needed about 90 minutes.

  • itsnotmeitsyou||

    He probably only needed about 90 minutes

    Yup. For someone with a background in IT security like his, mixed with his clearance, getting at that info wouldn't be a problem. It probably took longer to copy the data than it did for him to access it.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    But how could get at the government's super-secret data? He dropped out of high school. Only dummies dropout. He's a dropout and you shouldn't listen to a word he says!

    /Beltway propagandist

  • itsnotmeitsyou||

    Heh, the grasping at straws and ad hom attacks are mildly entertaining.

    I wish I had a chart or some type of data that showed how many prolific hackers are dropouts. I'd wager that a good portion of Anonymous are dropouts that got bored with school because they were smarter than everyone there.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    Oh, and his girlfriend is an acrobat/pole dancer! As a matter of fact, here are some pictures of her! He's clearly a man of lose morals and poor character! SHUN. THIS MAN.

    /Beltway propagandist

  • sloopyinca||

    Is NSA security just that bad?

    Seeing as we had information on every single "terrorist" that has carried out an attack on us or our "interests overseas" in the past decade but failed to either share it properly or act on it, I'm not the least bit surprised someone with his short amount of time in/near the agency was able to do what he did.

    None of these people know what they or the guy next to them is doing and it shows every time they're scrutinized. It's like they're all operating independently of and in direct competition with other agencies and don't care as much about stopping terrorism as they do about justifying their budget and denying any other agency a "scoop" on a bad guy.

    This is departmental protectionism down to its essence.

  • Brett L||

    None of these people know what they or the guy next to them is doing

    "See? Our security protocols are working!!"

  • Bill Dalasio||

    ^THIS^

    It strikes me that the U.S. intelligence community treats collection as the sum total of the intelligence process. But, collection is really only the first step in the process. Just as, if not more, important is dissemination, analysis and reporting. And the hyper-security these organizations operate serves to stymie this process in the internecine turf battles you discuss. As a result, we wind up consistently having the intelligence agencies have the information they'd need to act, but never putting it together or putting it into action.

  • Anders||

    "the US Government is not going to be able to cover this up by jailing or murdering me."

    I really hope this is true but...good luck, kid. And I hope your family is safe.

    It is funny watching them try to assassinate his character though. Desperate and pathetic.

  • Anders||

    "Adam330| 6.17.13 @ 12:10PM |#

    What are the chances that this guy is essentially a front for someone on the inside with considerably more access? How is it that a guy who worked there for what, 90 days, was able to get this much information out of their systems? Is NSA security just that bad?"

    He got his TS clearance working for the CIA.

    He's a shit hot systems admin.

    He will have had access to pretty much the entire datastore. Have you ever met these kinds of folks? They're not Best Buy employees...

  • Brett L||

    I was told my A+ certification would be worth at least $10/hr.

  • itsnotmeitsyou||

    They're not Best Buy employees

    Jesus Christ, THIS. I know several Geek Squad "techs". The non-technically inclined think they are all computer gods, which couldn't be further from the truth. Most of them couldn't reset a forgotten windows password if you offered them a briefcase full of money in return.

    There's a HUGE difference between your cousin's buddy's nephew, who "knows about computer" and an actual sysadmin with top secret security clearance.

  • anon||

    I know several Geek Squad "techs".

    Hah! I've -forgotten- more about computers than just about anyone that works there will ever know.

    But yeah, I'd trust that a dude cracking security on pc games could probably run circles around most government "security," if he or she thought it was in eir best interest to do so.

  • Mickey Rat||

    What if they got expelled from Stanford on a dodgy plagiarism rap?

  • idic5||

    my spidey sense a little tingly here

    We have know for well over 10 yrs that the govt looks at every email and phone call. My stock joke for over these last 10 yrs in an email has been 'just between you me and the CIA..'

    So what is he saying? It is good to remind everyone about this since it is not good, and maybe that is the extent of snowoden - reminding us of govt overeach.

    but, OTHOH, he is coming way too close in time to two other GOP (read, Rove) initiated PR (read, propaganda ala goebbels) initiatives

    benghazi (gawd , is that tiring, or what?)
    IRS (yawn - who likes the IRS anyway? that was a slam dunk of a PR move)

    so, these PR campaigns run in tryptychs, threes.

    HE is on record to being a Ron Paul supporter. Paul is right of the right (bracketing the moral hogwash of the right; he hates the gov't - he is a pure from of the Right.)

    Rove lives on , the man behind the curtain who sets up what we are going to consume ourselves talking about.

  • Brett L||

    Spread that Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.

    But seriously, is Karl Rove scary to anyone since being disasterously and continuously wrong since 2006?

  • idic5||

    like a corners rat. like the proverbial rabbit running from the dog, he is running for his life and so is swinging for the fences.

    these are gut impressions of mine. and there is a difference between running a specific candidate in an election and this kind of visceral sow doubt and confusion mission. the former is easily adjudicated - did the guy win or not ; the latter, harder to judge whether you hit your target, but the target is bigger - confusion, distraction while the GOP and alec goes on its merry way - adding millions of cheap indentured foreign guestworkers in the current immigratin bill, fighting policies that wd help global warming problem , etc

  • Fluffy||

    There are more important things than your fucking little progressive concerns.

    You could have spared yourself the effort of writing these posts because we already knew that Obama supporters would be perfectly happy if O had rape rooms at the White House, as long as they got more free stuff. Free stuff trumps all, after all. And anyone who criticizes anything Obama does, ever, is an enemy of free stuff and must be destroyed.

  • KPres||

    "Obama supporters would be perfectly happy if O had rape rooms at the White House."

    No, no, no. Only if it's a gang-bang and Bush goes first. Then it's OK, because after that it's just the status quo, see?

  • JWatts||

    I think the phrasing is more like:

    "Well yes Obama participated, but only because Bush set the threshold so low. It's obviously Bush's fault."

  • ||

    Rape-rape rooms or just rape rooms?

    /Whoopi

  • Emmerson Biggins||

    Is that what he is doing? I Really couldn't detect a point in there at all. It's like they took the perl script that generates those unreadable jezebel articles and tweaked the subject-matter plugin.

  • ||

    He's basically:

    1) Claiming the scandals are all Republican plots (I suppose those IRS agents speaking out are all secret GOP agents?)

    and

    2) Bush did it first, therefore Obama has no responsibility or fault

  • idic5||

    sure enough, I see that Obama's approval rating have finally dipped correlated w/ this snowden job. bengazi, IRS, the american people saw thru these and his approval rating even went up (correlated with a 17k DOW!)

    But WHO likes to be spied on? In the realm of marketing / PR / propaganda, the facts do not matter; it is what one FEELS that matters. the facts in this case is that Obama is simply carrying forward what the right wing enacted a little over a decade ago. But thru a lack of memory , people will assign all of this govt overeach to Obama. I see that even BushW approval rating has finally hit positives. COllective amnesia.

  • Jordan||

    But thru a lack of memory , people will assign all of this govt overeach to Obama.

    No, they'll assign the blame to him because he's the one currently doing it, moron. And his signature is on the latest copy of the PATRIOT Act.

  • idic5||

    ad hominem attack on this and the rest of the 'criticism' of my comments. So this is how REASON.com comments go?

    Actually this particular one ,excepting the moron epithet, actually has a good point - that Obama 's sig is on the laws and, yes Obama is then a worthy subject for criticism. But he is carryng on the status quo that was created by the right wing. there was no hue and cry when his right wing predecessor was doing the spying thing.

    this is the point of ROve inc. doing his sowing of misinformation to the gop base. the meat than the kenyan muslim tyrant narrative is pretty much gone and bengazi IRS is drying up perhaps.

    do you people think that the headlines, the news events do not have some kind of human biased force behind their entry into our consciousness?

    they do. as orwell and others saifd, own the media, own people 's minds. 21st century media now includes cyber sphere.

  • Jordan||

    But he is carryng on the status quo that was created by the right wing. there was no hue and cry when his right wing predecessor was doing the spying thing.

    Tu quoque. Fail.

  • robc||

    And we all hued and cried, so its not only tu quoque, its lying.

  • JWatts||

    And being called a moron is not an ad hominem attack. It's just name calling.

  • strat||

    No idic5, this group is exceedingly tolerant of new commenters, if they deliver in a reasoned way. (See what I did there?) The problem is that when you use characterizations like "Paul is right of the right", people tend to look askance.

    You'll probably find that most of the regulars here have abandoned the "left/right" continuum as essentially meaningless in the face of overwhelming evidence of "loyal opposition" and collusion to grow the budget and influence of the state regardless of party.

  • Irish||

    ad hominem attack on this and the rest of the 'criticism' of my comments. So this is how REASON.com comments go?

    You claimed that the multiple scandals the Obama administration is currently in the middle of are all orchestrated by Karl Rove. You then claimed that Ron Paul is 'right of the right' which is just a ridiculous and unsupportable argument. Not that you bother supporting it, since you offer no evidence of what 'right of the right' even means other than a bizarre assumption that 'the right' just means being anti-government.

    Nothing you said was particularly worthy of a reasoned response, since there was no reason in any of your arguments to begin with.

  • Irish||

    do you people think that the headlines, the news events do not have some kind of human biased force behind their entry into our consciousness?

    Also, this is the dumbest thing I've ever read. You think Karl Rove controls the media? He's a Fox News commenter that Fox News doesn't even take seriously anymore.

  • ||

    the facts do not matter; it is what one FEELS that matters

    Oh, the ironic projection.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    Can someone translate this into English?

  • sloopyinca||

    Fucking google translate! There's not a tab for Gibberish so we're all out of luck apparently.

  • itsnotmeitsyou||

    You know, we probably have enough data on this site to create some sort of fairly accurate Moron to English translation algorithm.

  • sloopyinca||

    Print it and call it a Shriektionary.

  • KPres||

    Meh, a Shiektionary would only have one word in it....

    BOOOOOOOSSSSHHH!!!

  • sloopyinca||

    NO Christfag?

  • Brett L||

    some sort of fairly accurate Moron to English translation algorithm.

    Signal to noise ratio of Moron is unfavorable to be translated to any other language by algorithm.

  • Brett L||

    Google doesn't speak schizophrenic yet? But Klingon works. Fucking nerds and their priorities.

  • sloopyinca||

    nuqDaq 'oH puchpa''e'?

  • triclops||

    nonsensical gibberish interspersed with the occasional large SAT word is often a sign of mental illness.

    idic5 needs to either seek a mental health professional or read his predetermined talking points more closely for better comprehension.

  • sloopyinca||

    What the fuck is a "Karl Rove"?

  • The Late P Brooks||

    BOOOOOOOOOOOSH

  • Lyle||

    This guy doesn't really understand how Hong Kong works me thinks.

  • Brett L||

    Ah, yes. Tell me, random internet dude, do you think he didn't put his CIA training into figuring out where to go? The fact that he isn't in US custody yet tells me he's not totally stupid about his choice.

  • Lyle||

    Well random internet dude I've been to Hong Kong and I know people in Hong Kong, and I know what can happen to people in Hong Kong.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/chi.....ng/276692/

    http://www.theatlantic.com/chi.....ng/276709/

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    I know what can happen to people in Hong Kong.

    Your syphilis-import adventures are not relevant here.

  • Lyle||

    Why is not relevant? Explain your argument in detail my good sir.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    Perhaps you should go into more detail yourself, goon sir.

  • anon||

    This guy doesn't really understand how Hong Kong works me thinks.

    Hey, he's still alive apparently. That's better off than I'd be; I know jack shit about Hong Kong.

  • Lyle||

    Why wouldn't you still be alive?

    I think Snowden knows jack shit about Hong Kong like you.

  • ||

    "Why wouldn't you still be alive?"

    I think the answer to that is pretty obvious. NSA leakers aren't gonna keep THEMSELVES quiet.

  • Lyle||

    Why did this guy need to run away to Hong Kong? Why not have the balls to leak and this stand and face the music played by Uncle Sam?

  • Lyle||

    then

  • Lyle||

    Why didn't he want to do the jail time like Ghandi, MLK, and Mandela? He's talk, but he doesn't want to walk the walk.

  • Lyle||

    he wants to talk

  • Fluffy||

    (Kicks the Lyle boom box to get it to stop skipping)

  • Lyle||

    Yep, even technology ain't perfect. :)

  • KPres||

    Good enough to pick out drone targets, apparently. No trial necessary.

  • sloopyinca||

    Maybe because there weren't drones that could hit anybody almost anywhere in the world back in Gandhi's time.

  • Lyle||

    That's what would happen to him in America? He would be droned?

    I bet you really actually think this.

  • sloopyinca||

    He'd just disappear into an American prison without bail and probably without charge for months. His trial would be secret and his sentence carried out in solitary confinement...once his trial began in about a decade or so.

    The drone concern would be if he'd not have gone into a densely populated city in a moderately combative nation.

  • Lyle||

    Snowden would just disappear into an American prison? You mean like MLK disappeared in jail?

    He's notorious now. He wants to talk. He couldn't possibly disappear.

  • SugarFree||

    Do you carry all kinds of water for Obama, or is this just a special kind of water, Lyle?

  • sloopyinca||

    Do you carry all kinds of water for Obama, or is this just a special kind of water, Lyle?

    It's a special kind. And here's a secret: it's really piss.

  • KPres||

    I thought it was jizz.

  • Lyle||

    And I know I did what you're talking about SugarFree.

  • sloopyinca||

    He'd be put away as a national security threat and would never see the light of day again. Remember, our government has already declared American citizens "enemy combatants" and denied them their due process rights. The prison at Gitmo is full of "detainees" that are being held without charge.

    There have been plenty of people not charged with terrorism but held indefinitely just so they wouldn't be given their day in court. Do you not think he could easily fall into that category?

  • ||

    More like Manning. And just as they'll have a show trial for Manning they'd have one for Snowden. It is not at all immoral to not want to go to prison and have your character assassinated. MLK, Mandela, et al had huge numbers of supporters prior to going to jail, so there were people on the outside trying to get them out. Snowden had no supporters prior to this, and if he had stayed he'd be in prison, unable to speak to the press and very few would be trying to set him free. As it is he's free to speak to the press and build support right now so that if he is ever captured he'll have a support network.

  • ||

    TO HARVEY_BIRDMAN , YOU ARE 100% DEAD
    ON RIGHT WITH YOUR ANALYSIS OF HIS
    THOUGHT PROCESS - FROM THE OUTSIDE LOOK-
    ING IN OF COURSE....I MUST POINT OUT
    MANNING WAS ACTIVE-DUTY MILITARY AND
    UNDER DAY TO DAY OVERSIGHT BY SUPERIORS,
    WHEREAS SNOWDEN HAD THE LUXURY OF CYBER
    FREEDOM TO A POINT WITH NSA CLEARANCES
    FARTHER REACHING THAN MANNING WAS AFF-
    ORDED AS A PRIVATE IN MY OPINION.
    RICH56@STUART 06.21.2013 FRIDAY

  • Jordan||

    Because he's not a moron.

  • Lyle||

    So Ghandi, MLK, and Mandela were all morons?

  • Jordan||

    Mandela? Yeah, but that's just because he's a commie.

    It would have been pretty difficult for Ghandi and MLK to fight their respective fights from a foreign country. And they faced far less severe punishment than this guy will.

  • Lyle||

    Far less severe punishment? You mean like jail?

  • Jordan||

    Prepare to be shocked: different crimes carry different prison terms.

  • Lyle||

    Ah... but if Snowden is right, won't he be set free?

    Do you know how long Mandela was in prison?

  • Jordan||

    Ah... but if Snowden is right, won't he be set free?

    No...

    Do you know how long Mandela was in prison?

    As with Ghandi and MLK, it would have been pretty difficult to conduct his fight in exile.

  • Lyle||

    Snowden has no fight while he lives abroad.

    If he wants to fight, he needs to come home to do it.

  • sloopyinca||

    It's like a bully that beats up a little kid every day on the way home from school. Well, one day the little guy takes a different route home and starts plunking the bully with rocks from behind cover. Of course the bully's response is "come out and fight like a man".

    Same thing you're saying here.

  • KPres||

    Better that he get away with it living abroad. It might inspire more people to do the same.

  • sgs||

    "Snowden has no fight while he lives abroad."

    This is of course, moronic and wrong.

    His ability to "fight" is totally based on his ability to share the information he has, and trying to do that here would be impossible.

  • Lyle||

    How would it be impossible to share the information while in the U.S.?

    He's already shared. And he can share at will or give the information to someone else before being locked up. Or he can speak from prison even. He's allowed to talk to people if prison you know.

  • ThatSkepticGuy||

    "How would it be impossible to share the information while in the U.S.?

    He's already shared. And he can share at will or give the information to someone else before being locked up. Or he can speak from prison even. He's allowed to talk to people if prison you know.
    "

    What this keeps coming back to is, you just really, REALLY want to see him in prison.

  • NealAppeal||

    Punishment for treason - death...or min. 5 years and min. $10k fine. Knowing the way this administration treats whistleblowers the DOJ will push for the death penalty.

  • Pro Libertate||

    I think we're not yet quite so far gone that we'd drone Gandhi (putting us in the British shoes). Even the British, with fewer limits on what they could do, didn't try to kill him.

  • Lyle||

    You sir a thinking man and know some history. I applaud you.

  • Lyle||

    are... my battery needs re-charging apparently.

  • KPres||

    indeed.

  • KPres||

    "So Ghandi, MLK, and Mandela were all morons?"

    Ghandi believed in re-incarnation and Mandela was a communist. So yes, on those two at least.

    MLK may have been bright but he never faced serious jail time.

  • Lyle||

    So it's okay to imprison communists?

  • KPres||

    Before or after they confiscate somebody else's legitimate property?

  • Lyle||

    You know what I mean. Was it okay for South Africa to imprison Mandela for his political views?

    Of course I'm with you on communism and the government doing away with property law.

  • ||

    Holy straw man, Batman!

  • ThatSkepticGuy||

    "So Ghandi, MLK, and Mandela were all morons?"

    Gandhi would have starved everyone in India to death with his stupid "spinning wheel" program, and Mandela was a racist Stalinist dipshit who was arrested because he stockpiled enough landmines and explosives to start a small war, so enough with that comparison.

  • anon||

    Why did this guy need to run away to Hong Kong? Why not have the balls to leak and this stand and face the music played by Uncle Sam?

    Why don't you Read The Fucking Article? Dumb fuck.

  • Lyle||

    Dumb fuck I did. That's why I'm questioning this kid's decision making skills.

  • anon||

    Obviously you did not, because in the "read more" selection he answers that VERY EXACT QUESTION YOU DUMB FUCKING FUCK.

  • Lyle||

    He does, and I disagree with him if you haven't noticed.

  • ||

    He's still fighting based on his answers. By sharing his story and explaining his reasons for his actions he can carry on with his fight. He can do that from Hong Kong. You make it sound like he's made his point, time to ace the music. But if he's not done, he has to stay where he cannot be easily extradited. He cannot continue his fight here. If he's fortunate, one day he will be hailed a hero here at home and be welcome back.

    I wonder if he will vote absentee for Rand Paul so he can come home.

  • Lyle||

    Not very effectively since he is the PRC controlled Hong Kong.

    He needs to come home if he wants to be the man of the hour or half-century.

  • Sevo||

    Lyle| 6.17.13 @ 4:57PM |#
    "Not very effectively since he is the PRC controlled Hong Kong."

    Uh, giving interviews to the Guardian.
    Sort of forgot that, didn't you?
    Are you ready to admit you're a lying asshole, or would you like more evidence?

  • SugarFree||

    Obama thanks you for your support, Lyle.

  • Lyle||

    Okay.

  • Bill Dalasio||

    Why, yes, you could absolutely trust your safety and certainty of fair treatment to a government where the ruling party and much of the opposition party are supportive of the behaviors you identify and the media has largely sided with them.
    And, as proof of their commitment to honest dealing and rule of law, James Clapper is in jail right now for lying to Congress, right?

  • Lyle||

    Yeah, you're right... the powers that be all put Ghandi, MLK, and Mandela in jail.

    They didn't in fact treat them fairly.

  • Bill Dalasio||

    So, what, he should stick around for martyrdom status? That only works if you've got a sympathetic audience. Given the government's ability in this case to control the narrative in this case, I don't really think that would be a particularly wise strategy.

  • Lyle||

    Yeah, exactly... if its about the issue at hand and the cause. He's the one talking and wanting change isn't he.

    If he wants to stand up to the government, let him come home and stand up to the government.

    This is exactly why going to jail was a boon for Ghandi, MLK, and Mandela.

    Stand up for your cause Snowden! Don't run, stand up and fight!

  • ThatSkepticGuy||

    "Stand up for your cause Snowden! Don't run, stand up and fight!"

    At least grow a fucking spine and admit that this is all about you wanting to see him in prison for bucking your precious system, and cut this whole pathetic martyr charade.

  • Lyle||

    No, I want you people to have a real hero to cheer for.

    It's stupid to lionize someone so weak and ignorant.

  • Frank_Carbonni||

    So your definition of a real hero is someone who sacrifices themselves with little chance of actually achieving their goals?

    I am reminded of what Paton said, "You don't win a war by dying for your country. You win by making the other poor bastard die for his."

    You don't defeat corruption and violations of privacy by letting the corrupt powers that be railroad you, you do it by exposing the fact they are corrupt and violating civil liberties.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    It's stupid to lionize someone so weak and ignorant.

    That "ignorant" person keeps evading the US government and thoroughly embarrassing them.

    Looks like you don't really understand the meaning of the term.

  • SiliconDoc||

    I agree and hope it lasts for Snowden's life time even though he admitted he knows it won't last for long.

    I also hope he has the 4 laptops the jackboot quackers keep screaming he left with, I haven't seen that confirmed anywhere. For all we know the black hole looked around after the news and realized it hadn't kept track of things so it's real convenient now for them and the gov to claim their 4 short inventory is you know where,even if they know better.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    Why not have the balls to leak and this stand and face the music played by Uncle Sam?

    Go let the government put a monitor in your house if your so hard-up to give up your privacy, you worthless piece of shit.

  • Lyle||

    Okay.

  • Sevo||

    Lyle| 6.17.13 @ 4:54PM |#
    "Okay."
    Tell us when it's there, Lyle, and give us a live feed.
    Or, admit you're a sleaze bag.

  • ||

    Can't he do both?

  • trig||

    Umm because he'd rather be in hong kong than in solitary confinement for the next 2 years awaiting a sham trial.

  • Lyle||

    And you think people won't fight for him? They won't fund raise for him and his cause?

    Him being in prison would be a boon to his cause. Just like it was for Ghandi, MLK, and Mandela.

    Snowden just ain't that smart and brave.

  • SiliconDoc||

    I do believe we're far past the "honorable resistance" mantra we've heard fairy tales and twisted equivalents about.

    What's sad is a thousand other copycats haven't flown the crazed secret tyranny coup in the same fashion already.

    We already know the entire system of whistle blowing is a worse joke than it was before the criminal Congress ghost wrote the con job legislation that now imprisons and or destroys all under Barky the tyrant.

    I certainly hope Snowden has a giant trigger and an excessively twitchy finger.

    I'll give you this much : Since neither Manning, Wiki, nor this guy actually released anything - indeed the 99 powerpoint slides are 1 or 2 released - a couple percent -todays little would be traitors are nothing of the sort.
    UTMOST in their minds is "protecting" the big machines of government.

    Not a single one of them gave fair warning ( to all the various overlord governments and their oh so helpless assets)then let it all fly - yet we have an internet for that.

    They are ALL cowering and near worthless - yet our government -the entire MSM,and all the govs and pops have huge hissy fits.... like it's actually a big deal.

    Nope, we haven't seen anything.

  • ||

    TO LYLE - 06 17 13
    " SNOWDEN JUST AIN'T THAT SMART AND
    BRAVE" I DISAGREE ON BOTH POINTS.
    1ST HE IS AN IT ANALYST WITH NSA
    SEC CLEARANCES AND A CONSCIENCE.
    THIS IS NOT YOUR AVERAGE SEC BEAR.
    2ND HE IS BRAVE AND OUTED HIMSELF
    TO OUR GOV AND THE PURSUIT OF HIS
    CAUSE WHEN HE COULD OF STAYED OFF-
    RADAR AND FOUND A HOST SANCTUARY
    FIRST - HIS WAY HE IS ON THE RUN
    FOR HIS CAUSE - HE HAS MY RESPECT
    AND SUPPORT.
    RICH56@STUART 06-21-2013 FRIDAY

  • ||

    Or...why not just attempt to stick it to Uncle Sam instead of getting screwed over by him for a change?

  • SiliconDoc||

    smile

    Hoping for that change.

    It seems to me all those special interests large and small do exactly that, with the utmost blessings.

  • Enigma||

    First, Snowden is not MLK or Ghandi. He doesn't have armies of supporters who will bail him out of prison. Second, he would immediately be considered a national security concern and either arrested secretly in the dead of night or killed via assassin (a la Trotsky). If he were arrested, would there be a million men outside the prison protesting for his release? The answer, of course, is no, because Snowden is a whistle-blower, not a revolutionary. He dosen't attract millions to his cause in the way MLK or Ghandi would've. So since Snowden isn't a revolutionary like MLK, Ghandi, or Mandela, he must use different tactics to strike back against the security state, and walking into the snake pit "like a man" is a retarded thing to do.

    Any questions?

  • Frank_Carbonni||

    No, Lyle will not have any questions because he is retarded and he expects others to be as retarded as he is and views it as honorable.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    I'm sure he would have been allowed to present a defense based on the methodology of the system in open court if he had surrendered to the authorities. And, as a nonviolent offender, he would have been placed in a minimum security federal detention center with access to legal representation and communication with the outside world.

  • Brett L||

    Letters from the Guantanamo Bay Military Detention Facility would've been a huge seller, too. Damn shame.

  • sloopyinca||

    You mean as a nonviolent offender, he'd have been released on his own recognizance and been able to make his claims of innocence on the public airwaves on any news show that wanted him to appear. Or is that kind of treatment reserved for cops that beat their girlfriend half to death and chuck her out a 2nd story window?

  • The Late P Brooks||

    Or is that kind of treatment reserved for cops that beat their girlfriend half to death and chuck her out a 2nd story window?

    Be serious, Sloopy! We're talking about a man who has besmirched the Presidential Legacy of the Ascended One.

  • Anders||

    I'm totally feeling the connection to

    Ghandi - Diaper wearing commie
    MLK - Hardcore Commie
    Mandela - Major Terrorist

    Well shit, all you forgot was Rosa Parks. Everyone mentions Rosa Parks.

  • Pro Libertate||

    Gandhi and Mandela were both lawyers, you know.

  • Anders||

    All the good guys in life are lawyers.

  • Pro Libertate||

    Jesus was a lawyer. It's true. They just retconned his profession because everyone hates lawyers.

  • sloopyinca||

    Was that you I sent a Linkedin message to this morning?

  • Pro Libertate||

    Heck if I know. I barely look at the thing.

  • KPres||

    Nothing like a little white guilt to absolve Obama, or at least deflect the blame a little.

  • triclops||

    lyle and the other tards who think snowden should "stay like a man" are just extending the "if you've got nothing to hide..." canard to snowden.

    if you think gov does no wrong when the right people are in charge, then his escape seems sinister.

  • Anders||

    Mark Steyn said people are afraid of the IRS.

    True.

    He also said no one should be.

    Debatable.

  • bonesteelwarren||

    At this point, we all know that Snowden has more credibility than the US government. (What? You trust the government???)

    I wonder when the constitutional crisis starts...

  • Anders||

    What is this constitution you speak of?

  • space junk||

    The only change that will come from this is that the NSA will get aggressive about policing their own (and contractors) to be sure that leaks like this dont happen again (or at least for a long time to come).

    Power corrupts! And the lemmings aren't worried about it when they vote. America has only itself to blame. Gotta love those morons who want to walk about the country completely oblivious to the world around them while DEMANDING that they be protected at all times. Fucking spoiled brats who want it both ways. Well, this is the country you voted for. Now go own it!

  • Las Vegas Window Cleaning||

    Amen

  • SiliconDoc||

    Everyone KNOWS BETTER ! The MSM told you so !

    WHY HONG KONG ! Screams the idiot parrot mind warped crowd...

    Last time we heard THE GOV THUGS HAVE NO IDEA WHERE THE MAN IS.

    So, reality is trumped by all the geniuses the MSM instantly created.

    I do believe humanity is in trouble.

  • ||

    06 20 2013 THURSDAY

    EDWARD SNOWDEN - NSA ANALYST

    FIRST JULIAN ASSANGE OF WIKILEAKS.ORG MADE A WORLD-WIDE KNOCK ON OUR COLLECTIVE DOORS AND OPENED OUR MINDS TO A NEW WAY OF THINKING AND THE SO-CALLED NWO NEW WORLD ORDER CONCEPT ; I AM NOT SUGGESTING HE CREATED IT , THAT IS MAINSTREAM IN OUR THINKING AND NOW WE HAVE EDWARD SNOWDEN TO THANK FOR CARING MORE ABOUT THE TRUTH AND OUR COLLECTIVE RIGHT TO KNOW IT THAN PERHAPS HIS
    SAFETY AND FOR CERTAIN HIS FUTURE CAREER PATH OPTIONS. IN READING THIS ARTICLE I WAS REMINDED OF THE FAMOUS WORDS OF OUR FORE-FATHERS:
    " OF THE PEOPLE, BY THE PEOPLE, AND FOR THE PEOPLE". I NOW THINK IT
    SOUNDS MORE ACCURATE AS "OF THE PEOPLE, BY THE ADMINISTRATION, AND FOR THE ADMINISTRATION". THANK YOU FOR CARING ABOUT THE TRUTH AND WHERE IT MAY LEAD IN SPITE OF THE CONSEQUENCES FOR AMERICA , YOU ,
    AND RICH56@STUART FOR VOICING HIS OPINION. THANK YOU.
    P.S. UPPER CASE IS FOR VISION PURPOSES.
    THANK YOU TO REASON.COM

GET REASON MAGAZINE

Get Reason's print or digital edition before it’s posted online

  • Video Game Nation: How gaming is making America freer – and more fun.
  • Matt Welch: How the left turned against free speech.
  • Nothing Left to Cut? Congress can’t live within their means.
  • And much more.

SUBSCRIBE

advertisement