Let's All Go to the Gun Show, Or, How the Obama Administration Has Stimulated the Firearms Industry

I should have known that the gun show would be packed when my wife, out of the blue, suggested that we attend as a family. Since we met, she's transitioned from a woman with a gun control poster on her wall to a fair shot with a .38 revolver who has proclaimed rifles "boring" because it's too easy to hit the target. Still, the words "let's all go to the gun show" have never before passed her lips. Clearly, she's in tune with a cultural moment, because much of Arizona's Verde Valley had the same idea. And, by all reports, ammunition and reloading supplies were the hot items at the event.

Before heading over after lunch on Saturday, I called my buddy, Dave, who met us there with his son. His kid seemed as enamored of the whole thing as mine, who busied himself peppering vendors with questions. I also ran into two other friends in the packed aisles. I suspect other familiar faces had been there, too, or would be soon. There had been, I was told, lines out the door Saturday morning, as people waited their turn to get into the venue without too obviously violating the structure's capacity limits.

Dave was considering reloading supplies, but he wasn't the only one. By the time we arrived, half-way through the first day, almost all of the brass in common calibers had been snapped up. A vendor offering used reloading presses (That's an RCBS Rockchucker Supreme depicted above) seemed to be doing a brisk business. I hope the buyers have their primers and powder at home, because a quick search through a few big online vendors of reloading supplies finds variations on the phrases "out of stock" and "temporarily unavailable" to be the most common results.

Pretty soon, people might have to consider expedient work-arounds so they can load their own.

Why the frenzy? The buzz at the show wasn't just the proposals for restricting firearms floating around among the solons of D.C., but the possibility of restrictions on ammunition. The official Gun Violence Prevention Task Force somehow managed to avoid the ammunition issue in its long wish list of intrusive violations of self-defense rights, but some elected officials have called for background checks on ammunition purchases. The result? Around the country, there's a run on ammunition so severe that many stores limit what you can buy when you do find it.

Brass and commercial ammunition were in short supply by the time we arrived at the gun show, but handloads were still available, though at prices that would have been eye-popping a few years ago. While I purchased some .45 ACP, the fellow next to me told me that he was only buying loaded .357 Magnum cartridges because he couldn't find cases.

How much has the Obama administration spent on fruitless efforts to "stimulate" the economy back to health? And all along, politicians could have got the business of manufacturing, buying and selling hopping again, simply by announcing an intention to ban everything.

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  • Sheriff of Fistingham||

    RCBS Rock Chucker press, I use the same one.

    /1111111111111

  • ||

    Being as I am a regular and friends with the owner of a gun shop I get first dibs on all ammo shipments. Lately that has been worth zip, as none is available to be shipped. I did manage to get a couple thousand 22lr recently, but that was an anomoly. I have never seen the market like this, ever.

    Hopefully in a few months there will be a flood of cheap ammo and used ARs and mini-14s.

    Thank you gun grabbers.

  • Sheriff of Fistingham||

    The would be profiteers soaking up everything they can find will be a little disappointed when all this gun initiative bullshit quietly blows over (like it usually does), re-righting the market once again. I can wait. I suppose, to the "grabbers, this is what a "clear mandate" should look like.

  • Scruffy Nerfherder||

    I'll be looking for a nice new carry weapon about that time. Maybe a NAA minimaster.

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    I'm looking for a nice snub nose .38 special. S&W model 64.

  • Professional Target||

    I'm looking for a nice snub nose .38 special. S&W model 64.

    And I had let my friends convince me I was the only wheel-gun carrier left in the world. Then again, not a one of them carries all day, every day like I do. A Titanium Airweight Centennial sits nice in a pocket holster when it's 90+F and 99% humidity outside.

  • A. Freeman||

    Try a Kel-Tec; a P-32 or PF-9. Bonus: they have NY legal 7 round magazines and no round thingy to bollix concealment.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    When the zombie apocalypse happens before then you'll be sorry. You'll all be sorry.

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    When the zombie apocalypse happens, I'm going Team Brain.

  • fish_remote||

    I'll listen to your drivel when you manage to start posting first again!

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    I get the weekends off.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Hmm, I dunno. There's a high probability of another mass shooting somewhere in the US in the next 2 years, and then we're off to the races again. I think a lot of gun owners saw how bad things got this time and aren't going to risk selling off their accessories and ammo this time.

  • Agammamon||

    Yeah, uh there's a high probability of around *20* mass shootings - each year.

    http://www.bradycampaign.org/x.....otings.pdf

    That's been the US average for decades.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    True. I guess we need to narrow it down to the proper race/age distribution and the right weapons being used.

  • LarryA||

    OTOH there are a lot of rumblings about schools looking into teachers carrying. A lot of schools that don't want that are demanding law enforcement presence.

    Folks may be getting tired of the "gun-free" zone BS.

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    2chili fam is 2cool.

  • Not an Economist||

    Another reason ammunition is hard to buy is federal government (particularly DHS) is buying a shitload of it. Far more than we used in Iraq. Don't know why.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    The fedgov's purchases amount to something like 5 rounds for every privately owned gun in the US. That's a lot, but the private buying is going to far outweigh it.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Yeah, someone on PAFOA (I think) with knowledge broke down the numbers and debunked the whole thing. He basically took the number of armed agents, how many rounds they should be using for practice/certification plus rounds to be carried/stored and it came out to like 6 months or a year worth of ammo. Which, considering that the government can't just go out and buy ammo every week makes senses to buy ahead of time.

    Not only that, but before Newtown the gov. was buying up ammo, but you could still find it. Plus, don't FEDS use .40 which is the only goddamn thing on the shelves right now?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    The FBI and Coast Guard use .40 S&W. But I'd imagine the feds would be buying more 9mm.

  • Sevo||

    Diane's 'promotions' go beyond the firearms industry:

    "Grim outlook for post office buildings"
    says lefty columnist, meaning it's looking good. But:
    "In charge of selling the facilities for the Postal Service is CB Richard Ellis Group, [...] chaired by San Francisco financier Dick Blum. [...] Blum is married to Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif."...

    http://www.sfgate.com/default/.....264630.php

  • wareagle||

    I'm sure that contract was awarded after a careful bidding and screening process to ensure against any possible conflicts of interest.

    Yeah, I know: fuck you, that's why.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Extend Fast and Furious to all 50 states, I say. That has to be the best "scandal" ever cooked up.

  • wareagle||

    I'm sure all those dead Mexicans and Brian Terry's family would agree with you.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    They know it was for the greater good. They will occupy a special place at Obama's right hand in Obama heaven, all praise His name and all His good and necessary works, covert as they may be.

  • wareagle||

    but no virgins to make their stay more pleasant.

  • Killazontherun||

    Virgins are a pain in the ass, or more specifically, the dick when you bust one out, so I never understood the desirability of them. Give me a slut who knows what she is doing over a virgin any day.

  • Agammamon||

    Virgins are great when you have no confidence in yourself - after all, they've got no-one to compare you to.

  • Killazontherun||

    Guys these days are trained to care too much. Ironically, the best way to satisfy a woman is to treat her like you hate her. At least in bed, if she gets off on that sort of attitude outside of a good grudge fuck, she's got problems you ain't emotionally equipped to deal with in the first place.

  • fish_remote||

    Shreeky....tell me another story about how you work in the go go go world of finance again...you know how much it arouses me!

  • Mike M.||

    Don't feed the vermin.

  • wareagle||

    control freaks and statists never get it - when you attack an entire industry, you may just find out that industry has a hell of a lot more friends than you do.

  • Sevo||

    Well, the med industry rolled over pretty easily.

  • wareagle||

    the med industry has been a cartel of sorts with the govt for a long time.

  • Sevo||

    You're right; the "roll" was 10* or so.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    "In charge of selling the facilities for the Postal Service is CB Richard Ellis Group, [...] chaired by San Francisco financier Dick Blum. [...] Blum is married to Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif."...

    The selection process was completely competitive and transparent, I'm sure.

  • Sevo||

    Ya know, if it gets to congress, I'll bet Di Fi votes to sell those properties, simply because she thinks the USPS is overburdened with real estate.
    If fact, I'm willing to put money on it!

  • croaker||

    Of course it was. Wanna buy a bridge?

  • The Late P Brooks||

    I should order the parts to build another 1911.

  • RG||

    Just went out and ordered my first, the Taurus Judge, just to spite the arseholes.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Meh, I've never been a fan of guns with words for names. I like my Blackhawk but I wish it was SAR-357 or something.

    The name I never understood was the Sig Sauer Mosquito.

  • RG||

    Two of my friends recommended it as a decent starter. Plus, the wife didn't find it too frightening.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Well, I've never had one, just grousing about the name. I like the idea of a combination pistol/shotgun. Plus I've seen both 45 colt and 410 bore ammo available, unlike 9mm and 22lr that I'm always looking for, so there's definitely a lot going for it.

    I don't think it's legal in CA and some other states as it's considered a short-barreled shotgun by their definition.

  • Generic Stranger||

    It's actually rather useless. The shot pattern sucks because of the rifling, and it's far larger than most other pistols because of its need to accommodate .410 shells. Buckshot and slugs out of the short barrel suck rather royally. You're better off just getting a revolver in .45 Colt.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Seeing as how the purchase is already made, I'm trying to emphasize the positive, GS. :-)

    And there is some positive.

  • Dylboz||

    The Mosquito can be incredibly finicky with ammo. IMHO, 22LR is really not a great pistol cartridge. It's right there in the name. The "LR" stands for Long Rifle.

  • mad libertarian guy||

    If it isn't mini-mags, my Mosquito won't shoot it.

    I love the gun, but the trigger is god awful.

  • Almanian!||

    My two Colt .22 pistols are specifically .22LR - they run all day on pretty much anything I feed them.

  • Rabban||

    My garbage pistol (Lorcin .22, used at a gun show for $80, yeah I got hosed, whatever) has handled a few thousand .22LR's over the years and managed fairly well. Seldom jams and has not blown up in my hand, which according to some, is a virtual guarantee in such a low quality firearm.

  • Virginian||

    I don't mean to be "that guy" but the Judge is not a great gun for your first gun. I know because the first gun I ever bought was SW Model 28, which is a gigantic .357 Magnum revolver. It's awesome, but for a first gun a better choice is a midsize Glock like the 23 or the 19, or the SW M and P plastic fantastic pistols.

    The Judge is kind of a gimmick, because .410 doesn't penetrate at all. You can shoot someone in the face, and it will maybe blind them or fuck them up, but it won't penetrate to the brain. For self defense, you need a pistol that will let you rapidly place three shots into the area defined by a triangle running between the nipples and up to the Adams Apple. It needs to be loaded with ammo that can pass the FBI penetration test, which is 12" of ballistic gel. Now, the .45 Colt ammo the Judge shoots will do that, but revolvers have heavy double action trigger pulls.

    Then you've got the caliber wars. Don't listen to them. 9mm, .40SW, .45 ACP, 10mm, and .357 SIG are service calibers, and all o f these calibers have commercially available ammo that passes the FBI test. Shot placement is far more important then how big the bullet is. A step down from service caliber is the pocket pistols. These are usually in .380 ACP, .32 ACP, .25 ACP, or even .22LR. These are better than no gun at all, and a gun you carry is a hell of a lot better then a service sidearm locked in the safe.

  • SIV||

    the first gun I ever bought was SW Model 28

    The Highway Patrolman

    A fine revolver.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    there are self defense rounds in 410 that will get decent penetration. I don't think he's planning to use birdshot rounds.

  • Virginian||

    there are self defense rounds in 410 that will get decent penetration. I don't think he's planning to use birdshot rounds.

    No there really aren't. Google around for some ballistics testing. Yeah, they make .410 shells that fire buckshot and slug, but they don't penetrate worth shit out of the Judge's short barrel. If you fired a 00 buck .410 out of a real shotgun, you'd get decent penetration, but not out of a revolver.

    The Judge is a fine gun to carry on a walk in the woods, with a couple snake shells and the other four loaded with .45 Colt for anything else you might encounter. It's also fun to shoot clays with a revolver loaded with shot. But anyone thinking that loading that cylinder up with .410 buckshot is going to make a good self defense gun against two legged predators is badly mistaken.

  • Bobarian||

    My understanding is the PDX ammo by Winchester with the 3 copper slugs and interspersed shot more than meets the 12" standard for penetration.

    Regular .410 buckshot is meant to be fired out of a longer barrel

  • Virginian||

    http://www.410handguns.com/410_gel_results.html

    The PDX doesn't look great. The 000 buck 5 pellet gets one of the five pellets to 12 inches. Nothing else manages it. Also, you need that 12 inches in gel to simulate the distance it takes to pierce vital organs in a bad guy. A single hit that actually penetrates to the vitals is better then a dozen flesh wounds.

    For the weight and size of a Taurus Judge, you can carry a Glock 19 (15 9mm) or 23 (13 .40SW). It just doesn't make any sense from a self defense standpoint.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    and I would question the oft-repeated pseudowisdom that "any gun is better than no gun at all". There are plenty of self-defense situations where matters are made worse by presenting a gun that's not capable of stopping the attacker, either because of low power, low reliability, or low skill on the part of the shooter.

  • Virginian||

    What is there to question? From a self defense point of view, anywhere in free America (i.e. not Chicago or some other hoplophobic legal environment) you're better off with a gun. I've gotten a few of my friends set up. One of them is Thai and she's like 4 foot 8, 85 pounds. Only gun we tried that she could get good hits with was a Walther TPH. Which is a PPK that fires .22. But she can put the whole mag on a 3x5 index card from 6 yards or so. Better than a sharp stick or strong language.

    The thing about self defense is that the vast majority of defensive gun uses (DGUs) not involve shots fired. Moving a hand to the waistband, sliding a cover garment back, or even drawing a weapon will end the situation before it becomes necessary to send lead downrange. The issue with that is you can be charged with brandishing, which is why it's so important to know your local laws. Also another reason to carry a Glock or M&P or something like that. If you ever have to use it, it will be taken and you might never get it back. Never carry your grandaddy's service pistol or an expensive custom gun, unless it's no trouble for you to replace it.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Most street robberies also don't involve the victim getting killed (even when unarmed). Carrying a gun is a defense against the small possibility that you do really run into someone who not only wants your wallet and cellphone but also your body or your life.

    MAYBE flashing a .22 will make the robber turn around and run away, trusting that you won't shoot him in the back. But maybe it makes him attack you before you can shoot. Particularly if you don't look like someone who knows how to handle a gun, or show the slightest hesitation about shooting, or if he sees that you've got a small caliber (this last possibility is unlikely, I admit).

    Avg ghetto criminal with knife vs. 4'8" girl with .22 pistol -- I'll bet on the guy with the knife every time, I don't care how good a shot she is. She'd have to get damn lucky to hit a vital organ direct with the 1-2 shots she gets before he gets her. And if he gets her before she gets him, instead of losing a purse, she's losing blood, probably a lot of it.

    It ain't a no-brainer at all.

  • Virginian||

    You have an unfortunate misconception that there is some kind of criminal code of honor where there are the "just business" crooks and the real crazy ones. These are not Danny Ocean and his lovable band of rogues. These are people who make a hand to mouth living off of robbing people. You cannot predict their actions with any certainty. Armed robbery is a business for thugs, for people who have literally no scruples about inflicting pain and violence on others. Look up what some of scumbags wounded during robberies have to say. They are angry that their victims aren't charged. These people don't see the world the way you do.

    75% of personal protection is situational awareness. If he's within five feet of you, you've already lost the fight. If you're carrying a gun, you cannot be texting or listening to music. You must be in Condition Yellow, at least, at all times.

    One thing you did get right is the importance of attitude. One night in DC I stared down three guys with a folding pocket knife. They knew they'd win, but they also knew at least one of them would have an unpleasant memory of that night. A gun is not a magic wand, or a cross to a vampire. A lot of people think pulling it out will make the problem go away. Most of the time it does actually. But sometimes it doesn't. Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    OK, but I don't see how that relates to the use of a 22 pistol for defense as opposed to, say, pepper spray.

    Like you said, they're making a living robbing people. So they're going to be professionals, meaning they're good at it, and that means sneaking up on people and being able to tell who's got it and who doesn't when the chips are down. You can't go through your life staying 5 feet away from everyone on the street, at least not without acting so weird that other people's alarms will be tripped by you.

  • Virginian||

    Spray is better then nothing, and it's fine as a backup. The shittiest gun in the world has more range and stopping power then pepper spray.

    Well, first of all trust your instincts. We still have that lizard brain. When something doesn't feel right, it probably isn't. Time and place matters. If I'm at a farmers market at 11 AM on Sunday, my attitude is going to be totally different then if I'm walking home at 2AM by myself. I don't stay 5 feet away from everyone. I do stay more then five feet away from sketchy guys on the street after 9PM or so. I'm not watching moms with strollers, old ladies, couples walking arm in arm.

    http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1.....asics.html

    Leaving aside the LEO chest thumping, there's a lot of great stuff in that thread.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    The shittiest gun in the world has more range and stopping power then pepper spray.

    Have to disagree with this. Pepper spray in the eyes, nose, mouth makes it practically impossible to continue an attack or do much beyond struggle for breath and blindly fumble around...if aimed properly it's as good a stopper as any bullet. Problem, of course, is aiming it properly and being able to draw and activate it quickly, but that's why you practice. The range doesn't have to be that much for situations we're talking about.

    Of course, if there's more than one attacker or they approach from a distance with a firearm, pepper spray is probably counterindicated. But that's going to be a tough situ even with a gun.

  • Virginian||

    Dude, the giant cans of bear mace have a range about equal to that of a handgun. That little keychain bottle most people carry? That's got a range of five feet or so. It might be useful at bad breath distance, but I prefer that the bad guy never gets that close. Plus if he is that close, the spray is gonna be in your eyes and mouth too, if you're not very careful. Of course, "careful" is a relative term when you're talking about violent encounters.

    Oh, and there isn't a mugger/robber in the world who looks at a gun and goes "That's nothing but a .22, I'll close the distance and take the hit." It just doesn't happen. Now as you said, if they make a judgement call that the person doesn't have the stones to drop the hammer, or if they've somehow managed to real close, then they might finish it. But that's not a gun issue, that's a training and mindset issue. There are no dangerous weapons, only dangerous people.

  • Professional Target||

    Avg ghetto criminal with knife vs. 4'8" girl with .22 pistol -- I'll bet on the guy with the knife every time, I don't care how good a shot she is. She'd have to get damn lucky to hit a vital organ direct with the 1-2 shots she gets before he gets her. And if he gets her before she gets him, instead of losing a purse, she's losing blood, probably a lot of it.

    I'd bet on neither. It's not an either/or proposition.
    Putting a half-dozen .22 slugs randomly in the guy could cripple or kill him, though not necessarily quickly.
    More importantly, thugs look for victims who can't hurt them. When they know anybody can put them in the hospital or the morgue, they consider a career change. That means Ms. Cutething and Mrs. Pensioncheck don't have to worry so much about Mr. Ghettoloser.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Personally I would say that carrying pepper spray is better than carrying a 22. Hell, I'm 6'4"/250 and I carry pepper spray on the other side from my 9mm. If it's one guy with a knife threatening me at close range I'm grabbing the spray rather than the gun. Much less messy.

  • Professional Target||

    Personally I would say that carrying pepper spray is better than carrying a 22.

    A 55 grain bullet leaves its mark. It's not a good personal defense round, because it doesn't make them bleed fast enough. It does tend to protect the mugger's next victim, however.
    Pepper spray is an inconvenience.

  • niobiumstudio||

    If someone has a knife on you and you have a holstered gun within 20 feet of them - you lost the fight. That is basic self defense 101 - don't be within 20 feet of an unsheathed knife. You will lose. If they are decently skilled with a knife you will have your free hand pushed aside and a knife between your clavicle and shoulder blade on your draw hand before you can even push aside your cover garment. You are better off running. Within 20 feet knife vs. handgun - knife wins almost every time. Honestly, within breath distance I would probably reach for the fixed blade knife 9 out of 10 times. Grip down in a retention sheath with no cover if far faster to draw. If they had a knife out I would run... every time, no second thought.

  • RG||

    Thanks for the info.

    I had read about the penetration issues with the .410. I looked at it as a stun feature while I learned to shoot and the wife got comfortable with it.

    The .45 was the main attraction with the .410 being a fun feature.

  • Virginian||

    No problem man. Yeah, .45 Long Colt is ok for personal protection. It has a lot of recoil though, so get used to practicing pulling the gun down and back into alignment for the second shot. On the plus side, the fireball should singe their eyebrows.

    I just have to tell every Judge owner not to think he bought a pocket twelve gauge, because I feel like there are a lot of people out there who bought a Judge and now think they have a cone of death coming out of their revolver because it's loaded with shotshells. When really what happens is three tiny little balls spill out of the barrel and hit about 3 inches apart at 15 feet.

  • juris imprudent||

    Noisy Cricket was already used.

  • Killazontherun||

    Wasn't so noisy after Frank blew his head off.

  • Xenocles||

    The name is probably ironic, like the DeHaviland line of RAF fighter/bombers. One of them carried a 57 mm cannon if memory serves.

  • A. Freeman||

    The Mosquito is annoying with it's tendency to malfunciton, just like the bug that bites.

    Made by Umarex, like my Walther P-22. After about 3500 rounds, the P-22 developed a secret funciton inhibitor all on it's own. If you don't know how to use it, it does not go bang.

  • ||

    It's a great piece. We have his and hers.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Fucking tReason cosmotarians with their cocktail parties, and gun shows, and city-slicker reloading ways. Makes me wanna puke.

  • Killazontherun||

    I love gun show cocktail parties!

  • kinnath||

    Dinner at 5:30. Beef Tenderloin and Mclaren Vale Cab Sav.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Yeah, I bet Tucille has photos of himself skeet shooting too.

  • SIV||

  • SIV||

    2chily lives in the hinterlands of Arizona. Nick wouldn't be caught dead at a gun show. Some redneck might hand him C4L literature.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Yeah, cocktail parties. Know what I mean?

    Freakin' cocktail parties man, am I right? Or am I right?

    They probably drink cosmos at their stupid cocktail parties that I don't get invited to, HA!

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    I went to a cocktail party once, but when I dared to question whether taxpayer endorsement of butt sex was the #1 liberty issue of our times, this soft-spoken guy poked out from behind the latte bar wearing designer glasses, a gray turtleneck, and male perfume and handed me an Orange Line schedule and showed me the door.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Dang, same thing happened to me!

    Was the guy wearing girl's skinny jeans, and was his name Nick Gillespie?

  • SIV||

    Sounds like the guy ahead of me in line at the food truck, complaining they didn't offer a vegan banh mi.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Cosmos don't go to food trucks, they just romanticize them from afar.

    Once you get into an argument with an old Thai lady about how much peanut butter is supposed to be in their satay, the mystique is pretty much gone.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Once you get into an argument with an old Thai lady about how much peanut butter is supposed to be in their satay,

    The correct answer is none.

    Jus' sayin'

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    What do you know about bastardized Thai cuisine?

    If something doesn't contain peanut butter it's not going into my mouth. Sorry, those are the rules.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    I had a dream last night that my uni was requiring all faculty and students to register their guns and weapons with university police and sign a waiver allowing them to search your home to make sure you didn't have unregistered ones. The weird thing was, you had to bring your guns to the campus office of police to register them.

    In my dream world, apparently our campus community is exceedingly well armed and yet surprisingly submissive, as the line stretched all the way around the building and beyond. There was one Indian girl behind me pulling a 55 gallon on a dolly, full of military rifles with bayonets attached and everything; I had a few machine guns that I don't have in the waking world; and this old physics professor emeritus with a hunchback who shuffles past my door every day at about 10:30 am , was in front of me toting a flerking rocket launcher.

  • ||

    You know who else had a dream of gun registration?

  • ||

    Barak Obama?

  • ||

    c

    *grumble, grumble, edit function, grumble

  • ||

    My father used to say: "you know that the revolution is over when they're collecting the guns".

  • Drake||

    Was the Indian girl hot?

  • Killazontherun||

    Since we met, she's transitioned from a woman with a gun control poster on her wall to a fair shot with a .38 revolver who has proclaimed rifles "boring" because it's too easy to hit the target

    Get a cheap remote controlled buggy and duct tape a spinner target to the top. It becomes much more of a challenge, and also a game between the person shooting the target and the one controlling the buggy.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Might want to get some armor for the buggy if the shooter tends to miss low.

  • Killazontherun||

    You'd be surprised how much damage one of those standard ones you can buy at Radioshack can take. My nephew use to work for one and he would bring buggies over to shoot up. It really is a ridiculous amount of stupid fun.

  • entropy||

    Your nephew worked for a cheap RC buggy? The Luddites were right! We have no idea what we have unleashed.

  • Killazontherun||

    Sentences set up just like the Chicago Manual of Style suggest the continuance of objects and pronouns to be handled, so I don't see the ambiguity there.

  • General Butt Naked||

    You know who else was from Chicago?

  • SIV||

    Nikki the editrix?

  • General Butt Naked||

    That sounds like a lady dressed in leather that beats men up for their syntax mistakes. They pay her, of course.

  • SIV||

    Commenter Nicole is an editor from Chi-town.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Jesus, I hope she's not caught up in the dark underworld of Chicago critical language review. There's some nasty characters about.

    They'll fuckin' put a Harvard comma right up in a motherfucker and not think twice.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    Two of my friends recommended it as a decent starter.

    .45 long colt is a starter? Awfully pricey, for one thing.

    Plus, I don't see a pistol with a cylinder longer than the barrel as being particularly useful. I do, however, have a friend who owns a small gun shop who says he has sold several to ranchers for when they are out checking/fixing their fences; they like the .410 shotgun shells as an anti rattlesnake round.

  • RG||

    It cost $500 which didn't seem too bad.

    The model I got has both a 3 inch barrel and cylinder.

  • Dylboz||

    That reminds me... You know what has been surprisingly difficult to find lately? Snake shot. I want to put some in my .38 Special for dog walks in the desert. Not just for snakes, but 4 legged predators, like coyotes, or even stinky Javelina (not predators, but they are stubborn and potentially violent). I don't want to kill them (because it would bring a shit storm down upon me from Fish and Game), just make them go away. They get AWFULLY close sometimes. I had a coyote stalk me and my little dog for half a mile in our neighborhood. A stinging ass full of snake shot ought to do the trick, but it is just nowhere to be had 'round these parts. You wouldn't think that'd be high on the panic buyer's list, would you?

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Could be supply chasing demand. No point making snake shot when you can make 223 and sell it for big bucks.

    I've seen quite a bit of 22LR shotshells that I never noticed before (probably because they're the only thing on the 22 shelf).

  • SIV||

    .22 shotshells are for shooting mice and bugs indoors.

  • Killazontherun||

    I just keep a pellet gun with me on hikes. Shooting at trees near the coyotes is enough to scare them off, I've found to be the case.

    You really should hike armed. I learned the hard way several years ago when a couple of them stalked me and I had to resort to hitting one with a stone to shoo it away.

  • mad libertarian guy||

    If you are in the desert, I guarantee you can blast as many coyotes as you want and fish and game will have nary a word to say.

  • ||

    Yeah, that was my thought.

    What desert do you live in that you can't kill coyotes on sight?

    California maybe?

  • John||

    Interesting take on why DHS is buying so much ammunition. First, they think it will make ammunition harder for citizens to get by buying up the available ammunition (remember these people neither understand nor recognize the existence of the laws of supply and demand). Second, the purchases are being made through shady front corporations to enable it to be a way to loot the treasury and enrich cronies. Really makes the most sense of any explanation I have seen.

    http://senseofevents.blogspot......ds-of.html

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    As we mentioned before, if every private gun owner in the US buys 50 rounds for each gun they have, that's already 10x what the feds are buying.

  • John||

    Remember, these people are economic and mathematical retards. I think they honestly believe they can corner the market on ammunition. And even if they don't, they still get all of the money from the crooked contracts.

  • Killazontherun||

    The first part is pretty much what I figured. Obama told the Brady Campaign people that they could not be up front in the first term with gun control, but find means to put measures in place under the radar. You can expect proglodytes to not bat an eye at wasting the public's monies on such a ridiculous scheme, and do so with no public debate and instead use underhanded means. They truly are the shittiest human beings on the planet. The public should be outraged over schemes like this, and demand congressional investigations with some teeth in them. If you don't confront them here, they'll only find ways to build on this scheme.

  • VG Zaytsev||

    A study funded by the Department of Homeland Security that was leaked last year characterizes Americans who are “suspicious of centralized federal authority,” and “reverent of individual liberty” as “extreme right-wing” terrorists.

    Cocksuckers.

  • Torontonian||

    Request: Recommendations on what to buy?

    Objective: 2 or 3 personal firearms to cover the vast majority of potential needs for an urban dweller, while still being cost-effective and practical.

    Constraints: Canada's firearm laws... no prohibited firearms ... only non-restricted or restricted firearms. (See here for details.)

    Starting point: Blank slate... I don't own anything right now.

    Prior experience: 10 years in the Canadian Forces, with training on the following weapons: C7 (M-16), C9 (FN Minimi), C6 (FN MAG), Browning Hi-Power 9mm, Sig-Sauer P225 9mm, H&K MP5, Remington 870

    Open to suggestions.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Ugh. Any handgun with 4 inch barrel or less is off the table since that's just a hair under 105mm. Are there additional laws at the province or city level?

  • Torontonian||

    No additional municipal or provincial restrictions that I know of... the federal laws are plenty restrictive enough.

    Another factor to consider is that we Canadians can't take our restricted firearms outside our homes without an ATT, which is free, but is an administrative PITA.

    Implication... at least one of my firearms should be non-restricted.

  • John||

    Get a 12 guage shotgun and a high powered long rifle like an 30.06 or 8mm. Handguns are overrated as personal defense in the home. The kinetic energy of even an average long gun is exponentially greater than even a big bore hand gun.

    Yeah, they can be unwieldy. But you are not going to be pursuing someone in your home. If you need to defend yourself in your home, you call the cops, get your gun, and get behind something and wait and blow his head off if he comes at you. For that, a long gun is great.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    A 30-06 rifle for home defense? If you live in an aircraft hangar maybe.

    Too much penetration can be a problem too. A defensive caliber handgun will do the job just fine in home defense situations and is less likely to go through multiple walls after exiting the atacker.

  • John||

    Too much penetration can be a problem too

    That is a total myth. Maybe if you are in apartment. But a bullet is not going through two walls and after your neighbor and it is certainly not going through a person and two walls.

    And you don't need to swing a rifle around. You only need to do that if you moving and going to confront someone. And you are a fool if you are going to go down and confront someone. That will give them the drop on you. My action will beat your reaction every time. If you think about what will actually happen if someone breaks into your house. You are upstairs in bed or in your living room. They break in. What do you do? I think getting a handgun and playing Dirty Harry and walk into a room and confront him is nuts. No, you get your gun, call the cops and wait on him. Assume a firing position and wait for him to walk through the door and kill him. And to do that, I would rather have a rifle and know I will kill him in one shot even if he is wearing an armored vest than a handgun.

  • Virginian||

    http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

    Unless you have solid metal or stone walls in your house, handgun rounds will penetrate them. One must always, always keep in mind your target and what's behind it, even through walls.

  • John||

    sure they will. That is why I said if you live an apartment it is different. If you are in a house, it has to go through your wall, across your yard and through their wall too. That is a bit different.

  • mad libertarian guy||

    But what if they're sitting on their porch smoking their devil weed, and not on the other side of a wall?

    Get a 223 of some sort. Perfect for putting guys down, and penetration issues aren't nearly as bad as with and large caliber handgun or a shotgun.

  • Virginian||

    PSHHH a 223 has no role for home defense. Learned men on MSNBC and in major newspapers have assured me that dangerous assault weapons like the AR-15 are good only for killing children and puppies.

  • General Butt Naked||

    ...dangerous assault weapons like the AR-15 are good only for killing children and puppies.

    I live in a pretty bad area and we have recently had a few home invasions by both children and puppies.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    It's the puppies' fault for all standing in a row.

  • entropy||

    And you are a fool if you are going to go down and confront someone. That will give them the drop on you. My action will beat your reaction every time. If you think about what will actually happen if someone breaks into your house. You are upstairs in bed or in your living room. They break in. What do you do?

    Have a few hundred dollars worth of CCTV cams with IR diodes in your house and check your iphone to see where he is after you grab the carbine/bullpup shotgun and blast flechettes through the wall.

    Then wait 45 minutes and if the cops aren't there, bury him under the tomatoes.

  • entropy||

    Bonus if you're under 35 - video games have conditioned you to believe it is socially acceptable to loot the corpse. Pays for the spackle. Plus he might have a key you need later.

  • GILMORE||

    "bury him under the tomatoes."

    Pish posh. Totally ruins the flavor. Plus, all that digging? Back problems await.

    Two words: wood chipper.

    Failing wood chipper? Pig farm.

  • geekster||

    The basic, all around starter battery:
    1. .22LR rifle - The cheapest way to practice, have fun, and kill small game. Can't go wrong with a Ruger 10/22.
    2. Pistol/revolver in a reasonable caliber (9mm/45 ACP/40 S&W), with a competition length (usually 5") barrel. People have their pet calibers, but with a good quality bullet the terminal effectiveness is within spitting distance for all of them, and going with the cheapest to shoot caliber means you can better afford to practice, which is what's actually important. If your area permits it, a CCW permit and a good quality holster. I'm partial to Springfield's XD 'tactical' model.
    3. 12 gauge shotgun. Cheap for a first long gun, plenty of power for most things - within a 75-100 yard range - which is likely sufficient for a city dweller. Smoothbore, not a rifled barrel slug gun. Again, plan to learn. It's not the magic death stick that loosens bowels with the racking of the pump as many believe, and it's not a pitiful excuse for a rifle as others believe. But a shotgun is perfect capable of effectively killing anything that bleeds at across the room distance, if you do your part. Mossberg 500 or the Remmie, call it a day. #4 buck, butt cuff or side saddle for extra shells, couple of slugs in the storage and drill on mid-tube ammo changes.

    IMHO, YMMV, etc.

  • entropy||

    It's not the magic death stick that loosens bowels with the racking of the pump as many believe

    That's because this is the magic death stick.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c

  • General Butt Naked||

    I think I saw that shotgun on R. Lee Ermey's show. It's pretty badass.

    They had one hooked up to a remote controlled vehicle (like the one the bomb squad uses) and that shit was cool.

  • Generic Stranger||

    This is pretty good advice.

    I'm not really up on Canadian gun laws, but substituting a revolver in .38 or .357 is a decent substitute if you can't get a semi-auto handgun. In that vein, if you can't get a 10/22, then any decent repeating .22LR will do; the Ruger 10/22 is actually kind of a crappy gun to start with, but it's often recommended because it's cheap and easily customizable.

    The 12 gauge pump shotgun is probably the most versatile firearm there is. You can take everything from small game to grizzly bears with it, and you can customize it to certain tasks simply by smart ammunition choices. Using it for HD, but live in apartment? Any lead shot size between #4 buckshot and BB shot will do, and will minimize penetration. Own your own house? #1-00 buckshot. Out in the boonies? 00 or 000 buckshot with slugs ready to go on the sidesaddle. Etc. etc.

  • ||

    Step #1: Buy a Chi-com M14.

    Step #2: Replace the op rod spring guide with a machined one.

    Step #3: Go to an M14 Tweaking Clinic

    Step #4: Search for mythical cheap .308 ammo.

    Seriously a $450 M14 with a few tweaks and parts is really sweet.

  • GILMORE||

    " Open to suggestions."

    This should have been followed by "No Fatties"

    Btw I believe this question will unleash a half million variations on "GLOCK 9mm, AR15, & Remington 870 boomstick"

  • Virginian||

    Except for that one guy who says Glocks are crap and that *insert the gun he bought* is the finest handgun ever created and every Glock he's ever shot had numerous FTF and FTE and people just keep coming if you shoot them with a *any caliber other than the one he likes* so if you want to be a real operator you need to and get yourself a *gun he bought*

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Did you hack into my computer and steal my templates?

    I would tell him to get a Ruger P95 but that's far too badass to be allowed in Canada.

  • Virginian||

    I have an SR9C...I want their new SR45 now. But I would imagine they're going to discontinue the P95.

  • General Butt Naked||

    I got the SR9. I wasn't planning on buying this gun, but my buddy gave me a real good deal on it, so I jumped. I haven't had any problems with it, other than it's freakin' huge; lots of baggy hoodies when I'm carrying.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Oops didn't mean to hit submit...

    I think that Ruger gets some undeserved shit. A lot of people don't think they're quality, but I disagree.

    Between me and shooting with my dad, I've had a lot of experience with Rugers and haven't had much trouble over the years. Especially the mini-14, it's an awesome rifle. Pretty robust, and will shoot dirty all day long; it just doesn't have the accesoriziability (sp fuck it) of an AR.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Who gives Ruger shit? Let me know and I'll go pistol whip them with my useless Heritage Arms revolver.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    I have an SR9c too. OK gun, I don't like the trigger.

    They can't discontinue the P95. Everybody loves it. it's the Today Sponge of handguns.

  • waaminn||

    Man that jsut sounds totally bad ass to me dude. Wow.

    www.GlobalAnon.da.bz

  • OldMexican||

    On today's Houston Chronicle there's an article called Marketing Assault, where in an effort to place the other side of a story, the author uncritically mentions the opinion from anti-gun advocates that gun makers and sellers are cynically taking advantage of women's fear of crime to sell guns, despite the fact that "crime rates have plummeted and assaults on women are increasingly rare."

    Well, whoopie do! You see, you stupid women? They're playing into your fears despite the fact that crime rates have been going down! Being raped or murdered is now a matter of bad luck, so why buy a gun to protect yourself???

    Who is being cynical are those leftist anti-gun zealots who cry about how massacres are increasing yet are so quick to point out that crime rates have been going down, in a "weather is not climate except when it is" kind of way.

    The other part that's risible is the claim that gun ownership by women has dropped according to some bullshit study by the University of Chicago from 16 percent of women owning guns in 1981 (nineteen fucking eighty one) to 10 percent in 2010. You can be sure that women were more open about their gun ownership prior to the series of gun control measures of the 1990's and 2000's. It also makes it pertinent to ask if the pollsters were asking about personal gun ownership or household gun ownership.

  • ||

    yea, anecdotally i am seeing way more women at the range than i used to see a couple of decades ago. in talks with fellow firearms instructors, i hear the same thing. again, that's just anecdotal, but i find it hard to believe fewer women per capita own/shoot guns now vs. the early 80's, setting aside the fact that FAR FAR FAR more women per capita now live in areas where they can carry guns legally than back in the 80's due to the massive expansion of "shall issue" permitting states vs. "may issue"

  • LarryA||

    Every new CHL class I held last year was 50%+ female, up from a historical average of 20%. More women in Hunter Edcuation as well. And my beginnig shooter classes with women are up.

    I started teaching a "Women's First Handgun" class through community education last year, and it keeps filling up.

  • JeremyR||

    I dunno.

    I've used OKCupid ( a dating site) for far too long, and despite being in the mid west (St. Louis), seeing a woman who owns a gun is extremely rare (it's a match question on the site)

    Indeed, finding a woman who isn't a liberal is rare. Even though against abortion or Christians are almost always liberals or identify as Democrats.

    Heck, just a couple weeks ago was an Ayn Rand fan. She identified herself as a liberal.

    I think married women might have guns, but single women don't

  • General Butt Naked||

    I think all of the gun slingin' chicks get picked up pretty fast. And you don't fuck around when you get a woman like that.

    Now, I bet all of those anti-gun liberal women have had many partners cheat on them.

  • ||

    married women in general are more likely to be more conservative on a host of issues. i realize that gun rights isn't really a "conservative" issue; it's a liberty issue. But, it's lumped in that way

  • LarryA||

    I expect women who spend much time at a shooting range won't need a dating site.

  • SweatingGin||

    Heck, just a couple weeks ago was an Ayn Rand fan. She identified herself as a liberal.

    Maybe she meant Classical Liberal?

    Yea, I know, just was hoping.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    If it isn't mini-mags, my Mosquito won't shoot it.

    I love the gun, but the trigger is god awful.

    I liked mine, right up to the day I saw the cracks in the fucking pot metal slide. A cracked slide is not "normal wear and tear"!

    Sig wouldn't warranty it because I did not buy it new. Fuck Sig Sauer; with any luck, I've cost them a lot more in lost sales than what it would have cost them to just replace the fucking pistol.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    One thing to consider about gov't purchases of ammo, aside from just what in the fuck the goddam weatherman needs hollowpoint for: at the margin, if the market is already tight, coming in and buying will definitely have a noticeable effect.

  • Almanian!||

    Awesome. Yes, Mrs. Almanian has gone from "guns are scary" to "I want a Glock like yours, and with the laser sight" to "Now what model is that again?" as we watched "The Rock" the other day.

    "So the smaller ones probably kick more than the heavy ones, right?"

    By jove, I think she's got it!

    We're off to pick her up a Glock 17 - just like mine - IF we can find one. We'll probably have to share magazines for awhile if my scan for G17 mags (just stock - not the ZOMF?G!!!111one! 30-shot variety) is any indication.

  • Cdr Lytton||

    Same with Mrs Lytton, although she had bought a Glock several years ago but never really used it because she found it difficult to manipulate the controls. Took her to a range where she could shoot a number of rentals and she took right to it with other models. Now she's in the market for a shottie for clays and bad guys and has her own membership key to the fun club.

    My two cents to Torontoite above would be see what fits your hand and feels comfortable to operate, then research the reputation and reliability of the make and model. Don't walk into the shop cold intending to buy a specific gun for your first. Bonus points if you can try a bunch out either by rentals or borrowing other guys' at a club.

  • Cdr Lytton||

    RC'z law strikes! Sub gun for fun above.

  • ||

    This is one of the times that it isn't too bad to be a gun owner in Canada:

    223

    45 ACP

    Yay for cheap Chinese ammo!

  • SIV||

    I have airguns. I buy them through the mail. They are all either restricted "firearms" or prohibited in Canuckistan.

    Air guns with both a muzzle velocity greater than 152.4 meters per second (500 feet per second) and a muzzle energy greater than 5.7 joules (4.2 foot-pounds) are firearms for purposes of both the Firearms Act and the Criminal Code. Usually the manufacturer’s specifications are used to determine the design muzzle velocity and energy. Air rifles that meet these velocity and energy criteria are classified as non-restricted firearms, while air pistols are classified as restricted if their barrel is longer than 105 mm or prohibited if their barrel length is 105 mm or less. The lawful possession of these airguns requires that the owner have a valid firearms licence and that the airgun be registered as a firearm.

  • ||

    No doubt your laws are generally superior to ours.

    Just pointing out one of the few times I am less jealous than usual.

    Though in Canada you can mail firearms person to person. Same with buying from out of province dealers. They just mail it to you direct.

  • SIV||

    Why does the Canada government freak out over moderately powerful airguns? Americans let their children shoot those things unsupervised.

  • ||

    I think the logic was something along the lines: "Somewhere on the continuum on air rifle power they become as powerful as combustion based firearms. So lets pick an arbitrarily low number just to fuck with them."

    Interestingly, there are quite a few air rifles sold here that are just under the 500 fps cap but with light enough pellets, exceed the cap. It hasn't really been sorted out legally. The law was written extremely poorly.

    Another "loophole" exists where a magazine's legality is solely based on the firearm it was designed for. As such, we have legal 10 round AR-15 mags as they were "designed" for AR-15 pistols. Also, another company recently started importing AR-15 mags pinned to 5 .50 Beowulf rounds. The mags are essentially identical to regular AR-15 mags, but can fit 15-16 rounds or .223 legally. Same thing with certain .40S&W mags being able to fit 13 - 9mm rounds.

  • T o n y||

    The interesting question is whether the NRA colluded in secret with pro-Obama forces to get him reelected. Their only goal is selling guns and ammo. A "free" society doesn't promote that end. One under constant assault from President Blackenstein does, however.

  • General Butt Naked||

    The Ideas: I find them interesting.

    The Newsletter: I wish to subscribe.

  • GILMORE||

    +1 for creative variation on a classic

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    I observed during the election season that S&W and Ruger had damn well better be dumping money into BO's campaign coffers if they cared about their bottom line.

    The NRA doesn't profit from gun and ammo sales. Anti-gun groups have much better funding for the most part; the NRA doesn't have an "angel" like Mike Bloomberg to write them a check whenever they need money.

    The difference with the NRA is the gigantic membership's power to vote as a bloc when they feel threatened.

  • General Butt Naked||

    Plus a lot of the so-called "industry" donations to the NRA are actually by retail buyers that give money with purchases.

    As in, with every purchase the company will donate so much to the NRA or you can put extra money on the purchase to donate. I've given maybe 20 bucks like this in the past. Some online companies have a "round up" check out function in the checkout and millions have given like that, but it looks like an enormous donation from a retailer when added up.

  • LarryA||

    Industry donations go to the NRA or the NRA Foundation, both of which fund shooting programs and are tax-exempt.

    Lobbying comes from the NRA-ILA, and the non-tax-exempt donations there are almost exclusively from small individual contibutors.

  • Enjoy Every Sandwich||

    LOL how the fuck would you know what the NRA's goal is? I suspect your knowledge of the NRA is limited to what Chris "Tingle Leg" Mathews and Daily Kos tells you.

  • Jordan||

    A "free" society doesn't promote that end.

    Society doesn't promote any end. Selling guns and ammo is perfectly compatible with a free society.

  • ||

    Here's a twist for you: a free society doesn't promote a specific "end". In fact, no society promotes a specific "end", because societies are made up of individuals all with their own ideas of what the "end" should be (if any). We're not interested in your hivemind fantasies.

  • SweatingGin||

    So all this gun talk got me looking at Glocks again, just to see what they had in the way of subcompacts/carry/etc.

    Glancing through their website, .380 pistols are LEO only. I was a bit shocked by this, and was ready to get a good rant going against Glock. Turns out it's an ATF thing -- guns need a certain number of points for import, and caliber is one of them: http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5330-5.pdf

    I like to think I know a lot about the various bans, laws, import restrictions, etc., but I had no idea about this. I'd never even heard of this form. I'm interested to know if there is something similar for long guns. I know the Bush 41 assault weapon import restrictions apply there.

  • Cdr Lytton||

    That's for import. Glock is supposedly increasing their domestic manufacturing which could include .380 models, although slim 9mm and larger calibers seem to br more of the rage these days. Look for those right after the Glock carbine.

  • Virginian||

    I wonder who is buying .380 Glocks? I think Italy has some kind of silly "no military calibers for civilians" rule. But other then that....

    They don't make a 9mm single stack. I think the smallest gun they make is the Glock 26 which is double stack 9mm. The 36 has a single stack but it's .45 so it only holds 6.

  • SweatingGin||

    I'd bet the sell plenty of .380 to LEO as back-up guns.

    I've got a Keltech .380, but it's never fed as well as I'd like. I'm thinking I bent the frame. So, I'm halfway looking for a new carry gun. Very tempted by a PPK. Nice to have something you can conceal in waistband with a button-up shirt. Or Dockers pocket.

    My main one has been a Steyr .40 cal, full-size. Can pretty well hide it in a waistband holster at 6 o'clock, but it's a big sucker and makes me sit up extra straight.

    Haven't been able to carry at my last two work places, though.

  • Virginian||

    Yeah but a Glock .380 would either be a midsize or a small Glock....and you can hold just as many 9MM Parabellum as you can .380 ACP....you get a slight recoil softening, but you're not shooting as good of a round, and you get no benefits on size or weight.

    If Glock came out with a single stack that was 9mm or .380 that would be one thing. But buying a .380 Glock when you get get a 9mm Glock that's the exact same size and shape but with a better caliber doesn't make any sense.

  • SweatingGin||

    True, the only thing that attracted me to .380 was that I can wear the keltech between a dress shirt and undershirt, undetectable.

    Any larger pistol probably wouldn't work that well there, and it's not like 9mm vs. .380 adds thickness.

  • Virginian||

    Yeah. I do want a PPK, not really for any rational reason, but just because it's a PPK and it's classy.

  • SweatingGin||

    It's fucking beautiful. And classy. And remarkably small/concealable.

    Expensive, though, having to wear tuxedos everywhere.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Bah. Get a Bersa Thunder and no one will know the difference.

  • Gray Ghost||

    Late to the thread, but I've been very happy with the fiancee's Kahr P380. Very tiny---seriously, it's the size of the small notebook I carry around in a front pocket---doesn't recoil much, as accurate as you need it to be. They need to be broken in though, and are a bit finicky about the ammo they like.

    Still prefer my Glock 30, but I ain't pocket-carrying that one.

  • entropy||

    Yup.

    You can only import rifles that are considered sporting. That's why Izhmash futzed with the triggers on the Saiga AK-47's and got rid of the pistol grip so they could sell to the US market. If you import rifle that's not "sporting" they have to cut the receiver into pieces, and to sell one you fixed domestically it has to be modified with US made parts for 922r compliance.

    http://www.homedefenseweapons......ompliance/

  • Agammamon||

    I've seen this before - in an explanation of why the PPK/S exists. The PPK misses the certification by a single point so Walther did some quick mixing of parts and increased the PPK's wieght enough to get that extra point - enter the PPK/S, nearly identical to the PPK but almost 2 oz heavier.

    Of course the stupid, it burns - this only applies to *importation* and Walther started to license domestic production of the PPK in 1978.

  • SweatingGin||

    holy crap, that's amazing if true. It looks like the PPK/S is a little taller, and has one more round, but that might be.

    Friend of mine had the PPK/S, and I remember he had a reason that it wasn't the PPK, but I don't remember why. That may have been it.

  • Virginian||

    It's a little heavier because the grip is just a little bit longer. Holds one extra round.

  • General Butt Naked||

    I wonder who is buying .380 Glocks...

    I read that as ".308" first and thought, "That'd be one motherfucker of a handgun."

  • Virginian||

  • General Butt Naked||

    Dang, that's nice.

    Found this one on youtube. Looks like it kicks a bit, notice the pronounced flinch when the magazine is empty.

  • SweatingGin||

    co-incidentally, I have one of these in .308. It's a hand cannon. 14" barrel, breach load (mine doesn't have the fancy compensator, and it's in gun metal black. Does have a scope, though).

    In the evening, it puts out about a 3' spout of flame. It shakes snow off the roof of the shelter at the shooting range. I'm good for about one box of .308 through it, after that, the recoil is enough that I get scope bite, and bruised hands.)

    I got it on a whim, on the idea of "well, someone's gotta stop that truck".

  • General Butt Naked||

    Is it accurate with such a, relatively, short barrel.

  • SweatingGin||

    I've only ever shot it at 50 yards. I suspect that I'm the least accurate part of the equation. It's fun as hell to shoot, that's the most of it.

    Also fun: friend of mine had an uzi rifle. 9mm, buttstock (so it's a rifle), and a 14" barrel (or whatever it needed to be to be legal -- a ridiculously long barrel sticking out at least 10" from the front.)

    The thing looked ridiculous, but you could shoot 9mm at 200 yards. Freaking tack driver at short range.

  • General Butt Naked||

    I suspect that I'm the least accurate part of the equation.

    The recoil probably had something to do with that. It'd be hard to shoot something like that without flinching.

  • SweatingGin||

    It's pretty brutal. The trigger pull is short, but very stiff. Scared the crap out of me when I got it, but I couldn't resist. On the plus side, now my .357 is a kitten.

    I keep dreaming about getting some tracers to play with in it, but that seems like a terribly bad/dangerous/illegal idea.

  • SweatingGin||

    although now that I think about it, you can get an m1a down to 16" barrel... I think I could probably do 100 yards with it reasonably, someone more talented could do as much as the scope was able.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Three feet of flame?

  • SweatingGin||

    Like this. Not me.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    I was just checking to make sure you weren't making the Spinal Tap Stonehenge mistake.

  • SweatingGin||

    It really does make fireballs like that. Not a fish story.

    Where the banshees live and they do live well

  • Agammamon||

    If you really want to stop that truck, consider a .50 BMG pistol -

    http://airbornecombatengineer......r_50_.html

  • SweatingGin||

    so afraid...

    Vids of people shooting the Barret .50 bmg rifle without a muzzle brake are awesome.

  • The Late P Brooks||

    If you *did* have a .380 Glock, at least you could buy ammo for it. That's about the only pistol cartridge i have seen on the shelf in the past month or so.

    And in contradiction to what some of the people here claim, there's no .40 S&W left around here that I have seen.

    I'm watching biathalon right now. I can't believe those guys; I couldn't hit the side of a barn after walking up a flight of stairs, much less skate-skiing a few kilometers.

  • SIV||

    In 2008/2009 .380 was the first thing they ran out of.

  • SweatingGin||

    Luckily I bought 1k rounds of .40 S&W JHP for $200 (tells you how long ago it was). I've probably still got 600 - 700. Obviously I need to get out and shoot more.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Maybe I should go into business shipping .40 to those who need it in Montana.

    Last time I went to Wally World in West Mifflin they had like 60 boxes of the stuff. The entire shelf (behind the glass) was bare except for the .40 section, and then there was a huge stack of them off to the side.

  • Virginian||

    Last time I went the only handgun ammo they had was .327 Magnum.

  • SweatingGin||

    Ammo arbitrage could be an interesting business...

    I went into a gander, and was amazed to find a few boxes (under 10) of .223 a few weeks ago. I didn't look as closely at handgun ammo.

  • ||

    So my wife and I live in an apartment and have always been a little leary of having a gun (what with the increased probability of collateral damage and all) but with our new addition and having had a couple of business trips leaving them all alone she's finally come around.

    I have practically zero experience with guns, except shooting old bolt action rifles in scouts, so I have no idea where to start. What would y'all suggest that's on the less expensive side of things?

  • Virginian||

    Go to a range, try out their pistols. Ask lots of questions, preferably from the older guys there. Don't listen if people tell you you need a *this caliber* or *this gun*. Just like buying a car, try them out, asks lots of questions, shop around.

    What exactly will you be doing with this gun?

  • ||

    Mostly target practice, but the primary reason would be home defense.

  • jdtuccille||

    You could get a nice Taurus double action revolver, like a Model 65. Get it in .357 Magnum and you can feed it .38 Special if you like. If penetration through the wall is an issue, load it with frangible ammunition (breaks up on impact) for home defense.

  • SweatingGin||

    Also, great way to train yourself not to flinch when shooting:

    1) get a .357 magnum revolver
    2) load it with .38 special and .357 magnum, randomly
    3) shoot it

    Just make sure you don't try to do it the other way around.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    That will work -- especially if someone else loads it randomly, so you have no way of knowing the order -- but it might be better/cheaper to use snap caps (dummy rounds that don't fire but are shaped and weigh the same as real ammunition) and 38 special. Anticipation of recoil would be dead obvious in that case since the gun will lurch forward if you're anticipating.

  • entropy||

    I would stay away from anything like Glazer Safety Rounds or other frangible crap. I hear bad things. It's basically birdshot, I think. It's meant to not penetrate 3/4" drywall, but sometimes those rounds don't even penetrate leather jackets. I can punch through drywall. Better off with a lower caliber with hollowpoint or softpoint if you're worried about over-penetration.

  • Tulpa (LAOL-PA)||

    Right now, nothing is less expensive. Might be a good idea to wait a few months till things settle down.

    Normally I'd recommend a .22 LR pistol (and so would most people, I think) due to the relatively low recoil, which helps develop good habits, and low cost of ammo for practice. 22 pistols are also relatively inexpensive, as good new ones can be had for less than $300. I'm not a fan of used guns.

    Then get a defensive gun after you've got experience with shooting. By that time you'll probably have your own opinions.

  • ||

    Thanks y'all!

  • The Late P Brooks||

    What would y'all suggest

    My suggestion is always to buy a .22 so you can afford to do a lot of practicing without going broke. Then, probably a 9mm. Find something well made that feels good in your/her hand.

    However, right now everything is so fucked up even .22lr is expensive and hard to find.

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