Payday Loans Head to the Indian Reservations

As the feds and the states try to regulate payday lending out of existence, lenders are following the lead of other disfavored industries—like cigarette sellers and casinos—seeking refuge on Indian reservations, and thence online:

An Indian reservation in the heart of Montana's farm country may seem an unlikely place to borrow a quick $600, but the Chippewa Cree tribe says it has already given out more than 121,000 loans this year at interest rates that can reach a whopping 360 percent.

As more states pass laws to rein in lenders who deal in high-interest, short-term loans, Indian tribes such as the Chippewa Cree and their new online lending venture, Plain Green Loans, are stepping in to fill the void. The Internet lets them reach beyond the isolated Rocky Boy's Indian Reservation to borrowers across the nation, while tribal immunity has allowed them to avoid bans and interest-rate caps several states have set.

 The structure of the loans is a little different, but the concept is the same:

The Chippewa Cree tribe says its loans are not payday loans, those two-week loans with annualized interest rates of 600 percent or more. Instead, the tribe says, its highest annualized interest rate is 360 percent. Payments are made over a period of months, usually in monthly or biweekly installments.

By any account, those rates are still very high. By the company's own example, a first-time borrower who takes out a $600 loan would end up paying $1,261.32 over 12 bi-weekly payments.

Less than a year old, Plain Green Loans already has an F rating by the Better Business Bureau...

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  • Menth||

    I for one am curious to hear White Indian's take on this subject matter and look forward to engaging in what should turn out to be an interesting conversation. From which anarcho-primitivist's work will he quote? John Zerzan? Derrick Jensen? Only time will tell.

  • Sparky||

    This one certainly has White Indian written all over it. I'm sure his ultimate claim will be that even the American Indian tribes are domesticated, therefore Agricultural City-STATIST, and cannot be used to disprove any of his ridiculous claims.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    Officer, am I free to gamble on the usury lenders?

  • ||

    Thread winner.

  • Dusty||

    Never gets old.

  • White Indian||

    You're learning, even if you're still evading reality, and must necessarily mock the empirical data to cling to your religio-economic fundamentalism.

    Thanks for the feedback, Fist.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    To think, this whole time I thought it was a quote from Skyrim.

  • White Indian||

    It's not?

  • Anonymous Coward||

    Yawn. Feel free to suck firewater until you fall into a coma tomorrow.

    Happy New Year!

  • Honkey Injun||

    Why would I have to wait until tomorrow?

  • Alcohol = City-Statist Ruse||

    It's like the date rape drug that enslaved humanity for 10,000 years.

    How Beer Created Civilization
    www.forbes.com/sites/frederick.....ilization/

  • Anonymous Coward||

    It's like the date rape drug that enslaved humanity for 10,000 years.

    You really are that damn stupid, aren't you?

    When beer was safer than water

  • Civilization shits things up||

    ...makes the water filthy, and then, yeah, drinking beer is cleaner. You're just another city-Statist Dipshit.

  • JSinAZ||

    Not stupid, just objectively evil.

    WIs' dislike of the disinfectant properties of alcohol is actually quite in keeping with its overall wish for more humans to die. Like I said, evil.

  • The Four Horsemen||

    Who needs disinfectants when they're not infected? Paleolithic people were much healthier.

    You're for people dying a horrid death from city-Statism, city-Statist.

    City-Statism has been around for 10,000 years, and one thing it has done time after time - catastrophically collapsed.

    The consequences of city-Statism are deeply embedded in our literature: the four horsemen of the Apocaplyse.

    You should know it.

  • Tacos mmm...||

    But am I free to gamble about plain and casino?

  • Rev. Blue Moon ||

    But am I free to gamble about plain and casino?

    KENNY ROGERS: NO!
    THE FLEET FOXES: NO!

  • White Indian||

    You're learning, even if you're still evading reality, and must necessarily mock empirical data to cling to your religio-economic fundamentalism.

    Thanks for the feedback.

  • anon||

    Citation Needed.

  • White Indian||

    Ride a Fjord instead.

  • White Indian||

    There are 4 sociopolitical typologies (Service, 1975) in mainstream anthropology:

    Non-State Society:
    • BAND
    • TRIBE
    • CHIEFDOM
    State society:
    • CIVILIZATION

    The present day Cree are not living a tribal Non-State lifeway, or anything close, (even as some try to preserve bits and pieces) as defined by anthropological observation.

    But go ahead, deride people who once lived as "autonomous and sovereign" individuals who "bowed to no external political leaders."

    Your jeers only serve to reveal what you really are - a loutish city-Statist thug.

    _______________
    Elman R. Service (1975), Origins of the State and Civilization: The Process of Cultural Evolution. New York: Norton.
    * NON-STATE AND STATE SOCIETIES
    http://faculty.smu.edu/rkemper.....ieties.pdf

  • anon||

    living a tribal Non-State lifeway,
    Nice grammar.

  • White Indian||

    I reckon I should have written enjoy, as used in the referenced text.

    "Many people living in non-state societies enjoy lifeways that a number of Americans seem intent on reinventing -such as close association with the land, small group size, and emphasis on oral traditions."

    Elman R. Service (1975), Origins of the State and Civilization: The Process of Cultural Evolution. New York: Norton.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    White Indian: the literary equivalent of getting your pubes tweezed.

  • How would you know that?||

  • Your mother told me||

  • Menth||

    Whither the Dorset culture? Where did they go?

  • fish||

    I've always wanted to be in a band.

  • Fletch||

    Service earned a Bachelors Degree in 1941 from the University of Michigan. He earned a Ph.D. in Anthropology from Columbia University in 1951 and taught there from 1949 to 1953. From there, Service went back to the University of Michigan to teach from 1953 until 1969. He later taught at the University of California at Santa Barbara from 1969 to 1985, when he retired.

    A 44 yr gambol thru the city-state!

  • Another excuse to avoid facts||

    But using your "logic"...

    ...didn't that idiot MISES suck dick for austrofascist Engelbert_Dollfuss, who "in early 1933, he shut down parliament, banned the Austrian Nazi party and assumed dictatorial powers. Suppressing the Socialist movement in February 1934, he cemented the rule of “austrofascism” through the authoritarian First of May Constitution."

    Yep, he did.

    Christallfuckingmighty, he may as well have sucked-off Stalin or little der Gefreite."

  • Fletch||

    Dude...

    An "anarcho-primitivist" decided to CHOOSE the academy for 44 years over wiping his ass with oak leaves.

    Why would you support such a pathetic example of your creed?

  • How is Service a primitivist?||

    Elman Service is an anthropologist. Do you have any evidence he was an anarcho-primitivist?

    It's like talking to Biblical Literalists here.

    The stupid is strong with Libertards.

  • Alice Bowie||

    I have such mixed feelings about pay day loans.

    They need to charge high interests due to high defaults.

    The problem is the underlying problem. Poor people are unable to procure real jobs. I know that they can flip burgers, change bed pans, work at walmart on the cash register,and all of the other things. However, the Rick Perry Jobs don't really help.

    And, going to the MOB can be dangerous. I think a PayDay Loan is just one band-aide over another more serious wound.

  • Menth||

    I understand your argument and have thought likewise, it generally leads me to blame a crap education system that hasn't adapted to the evolution of the economy.

    That and some people just have an inability to delay gratification and heavily discount the consequences of short term high interest loans.

  • ||

    as long as people are paying off the loans, what business is it of anybody else's how much they delay (or not) their gratification. If it's worth it to me, then, well, it's worth it to me. Should next-day shipping be illegal?

    I just don't think the argument needs a moral component.

  • Menth||

    All I was trying to get across was that perhaps some people use these services because of economic hardship and others because they are dumbasses. I never said anything about making it illegal, I agree that people should be free to make mistakes.

  • ||

    True, they are moronic loans but that doesn't mean they should be illegal. People should be free to be stupid. How will they ever learn anything? Some people only learn when something bites them in the ass.

  • Trespassers W||

    I suspect that if you look into the matter, you'll actually find that payday loans are typically not used for moronic purposes, and are typically paid back quickly.

  • ||

    Fortunately, my position means I don't have to look into the matter. I just leave them to do whatever they want.

  • ||

    Indeed.

    You aren't free unless you are free to be wrong.

  • You're wrong.||

  • OWS||

    Equality now. Freedom later. That always works, right?

  • Comrade Lenin||

    Worked for me...

  • ||

    Borrowing a quick $600 in Montana's farm country is no way to go through life, son.

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    As more states pass laws to rein in lenders who deal in high-interest, short-term loans...

    Hmmmmm. I wonder what the unforeseen consequences will be? I mean, what will desperate people who need fast cash do when they can't legally access it?

  • ||

    Actually, who needs cash so fast that they are willing to pay 360 percent interest rates?
    And for what?

  • ||

    Lots of people. People who get paid next week, but rent is due this week, or the gas is going to be shut off tomorrow, or the electricity, or what have you. Easier to pay the interest until next week than go through the shut-off, penalties, hassles, and time out of the day to get everything turned back on.

  • Whips release endorphins||

    Therefore, it's good to be whipped.

    BDSM ECONOMICS are in the house!

  • Anonymous Coward||

    BDSM ECONOMICS are in the house!

    Very droll, and it explains your love of coprophagia.

  • ||

    Let's say you're poor. Your car breaks down. You carry minimal insurance. You don't have savings.

    Which sounds better, 360% or not being able to get to work?

  • Not being starved into working||

    Our system of private property in land FORCES landless men to work for others; to work in factories, stores, and offices, whether they like it or not. Wherever access to land is free, men work only to provide what they actually need or desire. Wherever the white man has come in contact with savage cultures this fact becomes apparent. There is for savages in their native state no such sharp distinction between "work" and "not working" as clocks and factory whistles have accustomed the white man to accept. They cannot be made to work regularly at repetitive tasks in which they have no direct interest except by some sort of duress. Disestablishment from land, like slavery, is a form of DURESS. The white man, where slavery cannot be practiced, has found that he must first disestablish the savages from their land before he can force them to work steadily for him. Once they are disestablished, they are in effect starved into working for him and into working as he directs.

    ~Dr. Ralph Borsodi
    This Ugly Civilization (1929, Simon and Schuster)

  • Anonymous Coward||

    Yawn.

  • Fletch||

    Hi Hazel!

    Actually, who needs cash so fast that they are willing to pay 360 percent interest rates?
    And for what?

    I always said the same thing-- Then a friend of mine told me he actually paid over $1500 in "bounced" check fees during 2009.(50+ checks at $35 each...)

    I "volunteered" to finance his excess at the same interest rate last year.

    I only lost $1000 before I quit(Because I'm not willing to shoot him- yet.).

  • Brett L||

    Can't get credit because of new government mandated rules, can't get a short term high interest loan. Just what are people supposed to do if they don't have any savings and hit a problem? Sure we could waste time pillorying them for not having more foresight or discipline, but that doesn't fix the starter in their car that lets them get to work.

  • ||

    This is really a stupid argument that gives credit to the leftist argument that crime is the fault of capitalists for not giving the poor jobs, thereby forcing them to steal.

    Only you've turned it on it's head and said that crime is now the fault of the government, for not letting the poor get loans at 600 percent interest rates.

    Without which, they would obviously be honest and law abiding and productive.

    This is idiotic. There are other mechanisms for getting to work - hitch a ride with someone who has a working car, take the bus, ride a bike, put the starter on a credit card, borrow money from a relative for it, etc.

    Seriously, the argument that without payday lenders, the poor will be forced to rob convenience stores for quick cash has to be the most retarded thing I've ever heard a libertarian utter.

  • ||

    I didn't see Brett's argument positing that people would become bank robbers, but would rather obtain their credit services ILLEGALLY (ie, from criminal organizations, AKA a Credit Black Market.)

  • Alice Bowie||

    So what they'll be forced to rob? So what poor people can't find jobs regardless of who's fault (capitalism, communism, the government, the free market)

    Hopefully, they live in a state with loose gun laws.

  • Rev. Blue Moon ||

    Only you've turned it on it's head and said that crime is now the fault of the government, for not letting the poor get loans at 600 percent interest rates.

    Without which, they would obviously be honest and law abiding and productive.

    What? The argument mirrors the Drug War argument, Hazel. Without legal avenues for quick loans, the poor will turn to the black market for quick loans.

    It is tautological to state that the more things that are illegal, the more crime there will be. It is not apparent that the individuals who take these loans will instantly turn into your Pet White Yuppies, but it is, by definition, true that they would not commit the crime of "illegal" borrowing if this kind of lending were made legal.

  • Brett L||

    No. The point is that the government continues to make it harder and harder for people who have made poor financial decisions in the past to find legal ways to connect with lenders who are willing to make risky loans. Most of the new regulations are the called in to being to "cure" the consequences of previous regulations.

    My point continues people will continue to make poor financial decisions, how shall we legally allow them to obtain credit when they legitimately need it? If they can't get a credit card because the government has severely limited the credit card companies' ability to charge rates in keeping with their risk of default, and lenders can't charge an interest rate comensurate with their risk, just what is your solution to this problem?

  • Brett L||

    Disregard the first three words of the second paragraph. PIMF.

  • Chatroom Crank||

    "This is idiotic. There are other mechanisms for getting to work - hitch a ride with someone who has a working car, take the bus, ride a bike, put the starter on a credit card, borrow money from a relative for it, etc."

    Almost as idiotic as thinking every poor person lives where they can ride the bus or that the bus even runs when their shift starts or ends. Or that they would have a credit card to put the starter on. Any relatives probably have even less money than the person needing the starter.

  • ||

    Sure we could waste time pillorying them for not having more foresight or discipline, but that doesn't fix the starter in their car that lets them get to work.

    If you were a decent mechanic it would. Hell, I can even fix my computer with a good pillorying.

  • Brett L||

    Depends. Eastern Bloc cars used to respond surprisingly well to beating with a wrench, but most of the problems could be traced back to low tolerances and poor quality control. Japanese cars, not so much. Trust me, I'm driving a 92 Toyota pickup with 290k miles on the odometer, and the odometer registers .8 miles for every one I drive. Has since I bought it. She was treated poorly by her previous owner, and I have, sad to say, been reduced to beating her in frustration a couple of times. To no positive effect.

    Also, I've noticed that you can't beat TVs into working anymore now that they've taken the electron guns out of the back of them.

  • Percussion Therapist||

    White Indian says positive reinforcement is better than negative reinforcement, even if it's just with a wrench.

    Get a little Zen in your Riceburner Maintenance.

  • Brett L||

    No amount of meditation is going to fix the fact that the previous owner "fixed" a hole in the rear brake lines by putting a bearing in the line where it met the master cylinder. Or cut off the knock sensor and temperature gauge sensor wiring at the harness. She's definitely a fixer-upper.

  • ||

    Anyone who needs a loan so bad that they are willing to pay 360 percent annualized interest is better off not getting a loan.

    Also, where the hell did the friends and family network go? If you're willing to go to a lender to borrow $600 at a 360 percent interest rate, it's most likely you are doing so because you pissed off every family member and friend you ever had by borrowing money and never returning it, and genneral being a meth or crack addicted asshole. Again ... your probably better off not getting that loan.

    That said, on some level I applaud the Indian tribes for getting into the banking business in the most lucrative fashion possible, by ripping off the exact kind of white trash that composed the settlers that would happily violate treaty terms 200 years ago.

  • Alice Bowie||

    Anyone who needs a loan so bad that they are willing to pay 360 percent annualized interest is better off not getting a loan.

    I agree with. I would probably advise these people not to take the loan. But I don't know if it should be illegal.

  • Concerned Citizen||

    Those loans are made voluntarily between two consenting parties, and as long as force and fraud are not present, it's none of your fucking business.

  • It's not voluntary, KOCHsucker||

    Our system of private property in land FORCES landless men to work for others; to work in factories, stores, and offices, whether they like it or not. Wherever access to land is free, men work only to provide what they actually need or desire. Wherever the white man has come in contact with savage cultures this fact becomes apparent. There is for savages in their native state no such sharp distinction between "work" and "not working" as clocks and factory whistles have accustomed the white man to accept. They cannot be made to work regularly at repetitive tasks in which they have no direct interest except by some sort of duress. Disestablishment from land, like slavery, is a form of DURESS. The white man, where slavery cannot be practiced, has found that he must first disestablish the savages from their land before he can force them to work steadily for him. Once they are disestablished, they are in effect starved into working for him and into working as he directs.

    ~Dr. Ralph Borsodi
    This Ugly Civilization (1929, Simon and Schuster)

  • anon||

    You know you spelled "Cock" wrong, right?

  • Concerned Citizen||

    Make your posts in smoke signals or shut the fuck up.

  • White Indian||

    It's like choleric foo-foo poodles, nipping at my heals.

    Should I return your Statist paddle and quit spanking you with it?

    White Indian counts coup on city-Statists who call others statist.

  • anon||

    I wasn't aware you had "Heals," ahahhahahahahahah

    Should probably stick to cutting and pasting Jason.

    Also, wouldn't it be fun if somehow your online life got into the real world?

  • White Indian||

    Jason's obesity is exceeded only by the bumptiousness of a rational vanguard who shall save civilization -- by electing 2 dogcatchers in 30 years.

    Your shipload of fail has arrived.

  • Bill||

    Smoke signals only, remember.

    Hypocrite.

  • White Indian...||

    Couldn't count to 21 while naked.

  • Menth||

    Whither the Dorset culture? Where did they go?

  • White Indian||

  • ||

    While technically it should probably be legal, it's not a hill I care to die on.

  • shyster culture pretext||

  • Rev. Blue Moon ||

    Also, where the hell did the friends and family network go? If you're willing to go to a lender to borrow $600 at a 360 percent interest rate, it's most likely you are doing so because you pissed off every family member and friend you ever had by borrowing money and never returning it, and genneral being a meth or crack addicted asshole. Again ... your probably better off not getting that loan.

    Let me roll out your Jump To Conclusions Mat.

    First, these individuals may not have a friends and family network, and it may have absolutely zero to do with your assumed moral terpitude. They could have moved somewhere distant for a job that went bust, for example. Presuming they are all trashy crackheads who have "pissed off" their friends and family is extreme Upscale White Privilege talking, and it's clear you've never been *actually* poor. There is also a modicum of pride involved, wherein you don't want to have to lean on friends and family and you would rather do it by yourself, thankyouverymuch.

    You assume way too much about the folks who take these loans. And, naturally, your cultural bias leads you to not want to "die on this hill". If not this, then what? The freedom to make bad choices is freedom at its essence, Hazel. It seems to me that looking down your nose at people has led you not to value their rights as much as your own.

  • ||

    When did you become such a fucking paternalist, Hazel?

  • Every cityStatist = Nannyist||

    Oh, dearie, you'll get hurt out there in the wilderness.

    The city-Statist nannyism is a pretext for the lack of personal responsibility to live as an "autonomous and sovereign" individual, as Service describes non-State band and tribal lifeways.

  • anon||

    "autonomous and sovereign"

    You've used quotations incorrectly.

  • White Indian||

    It's a direct quote, foo-foo poodle. Check it out yourself.

    "Historically, people in non-state societies are relatively autonomous and sovereign. They generate their own subsistence with littl or no assistance from outside sources. They bow to no external political leaders."

    Elman R. Service (1975), Origins of the State and Civilization: The Process of Cultural Evolution.

    NON-STATE AND STATE SOCIETIES
    faculty.smu.edu/rkemper/cf_3333/Non_State_and_State_Societies.pdf

  • Menth||

    Whither the Dorset culture? Where did they go?

  • White Indian||

  • fish||

    rkemper...Is there nothing he doesn't know?

  • Fletch||

    Service was born on May 18, 1915 in Tecumseh, Michigan and died on November 14, 1996 in Santa Barbara, California. He earned a Bachelors Degree in 1941 from the University of Michigan. He earned a Ph.D. in Anthropology from Columbia University in 1951 and taught there from 1949 to 1953. From there, Service went back to the University of Michigan to teach from 1953 until 1969. He later taught at the University of California at Santa Barbara from 1969 to 1985, when he retired.

    44 yrs supporting and utilizing the "city-state"- and not even a single year of gamboling.

    Why would you link to such hypocritical losers?

  • How is Service hypocritical?||

    He's an anthropologist.

    Got your panties in a wad over what he discovered, dipshit?

  • ||

    Seriously. Is someone stealing handles again? It's getting really fucking tiresome.

  • nicole||

    Yeah, Hazel is weirding me out here. What if your friends and family network are the crackheads—or, just as fucking poor as you are. There's really not much point in talking about annualized interest rates here either, when in many cases it is, as has been said above, someone who needs to pay the rent tomorrow but isn't getting paid this week. People with immediate, short-term cash-flow issues.

    And this can happen to completely good, non-crackhead people, for lots of reasons. My boyfriend works retail at a small business, and the lady there who does payroll forgot to notify ADP or whoever of people's hours extra-early before Thanksgiving weekend. Is it a good idea to live paycheck to paycheck? No, but a lot of people do, and a lot of those kids who thought they were about to get paid didn't, for four days, and they needed to eat during that time. Not all of them have a sugarmama, and not all of them had a family to have Thanksgiving with either, because peeps move around.

    This might not be my No. 1 hill of choice to die on, but die on it I would, considering the importance of short-term cash-flow for people who don't have it—and how hard it seems to be for anyone else to realize how serious that is.

  • ||

    All good points, but you don't even need to make them. People need to be free to make decisions for themselves, even if other people think that decision is stupid.

  • nicole||

    Yes, but there's also nothing wrong with trying to stop someone making unfair moral judgments.

  • ||

    This.

  • ||

    Meant for Epsiarch's comment...

  • Chatroom Crank||

    Unless the option is spending a week in the middle of winter with no heat or lights, then maybe the loan is a good idea?

    You really don't have much of a realization about what it is like to be poor. Usually a poor person's friends and family don't have money either.

  • ||

    I think you're misreading the decision, Ms. Meade. The folks who take these loans don't take them because they think they're a good choice. They take them because they're the least lousy of a lousy option set.

  • juris imprudent||

    Again ... your probably better off not getting that loan.

    Cass Sunstein, is that you?

  • ||

    Dammit! Are there no prisons!? Are there no workhouses?!

  • ||

    How long until the Indian tribes are declared to be terrorist organizations?

  • Barack Obama||

    Mid-January, goddammit. I'm on vacation.

  • Homeland Security since 1491||

  • kbolino||

    So prepared, they got a head start a year early.

  • yogi||

    Regulating payday loaners out of existence would seem to be good news for pawn shops and bad news for grand-mom when she can't find her engagement ring.

    I don't have any experience with payday loans, but I did borrow $7 from a pawn shop once, with a $400 Fluke multi-meter as collateral, so I could buy some gas and drive back home to get my wallet. That's some serious loan leverage there.

  • ||

    c'mon, I think we need the rest of that story. Won't somebody think of teh lulz?!

  • yogi||

    OK, wylie. A hooker snagged my wallet. I drove back home and cried. That was really my employer's Fluke meter. He fired me when I told him I "lost" it. Now I hang out in the park and beg for change to buy gold Krylon spray paint.

  • EDG reppin' LBC||

    Funny stuff. Thanks for the chuckle.

  • Provocateur||

    WHERE THE FUCK ARE YOU JASON GODESKY?

  • ||

    Stuffing his fat fucking face with agricultural products.

  • White Indian||

    Jason's obesity is exceeded only by the bumptiousness of the rational vanguard who shall save civilization -- by electing 2 dogcatchers in 30 years.

    Your shipload of fail has arrived.

  • yogi||

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jefgodesky

    This guy? If so, I now understand why the Squirrel can't block him. He has a torrent-enabled browser and/or a bunch of computers/VMs available to him with unrelated IP addresses.

  • Rev. Blue Moon ||

    Ah ha. Being a power computer-user just adds to the irony.

  • juris imprudent||

    Adds? Rev, it logarithmically raises it.

  • Trespassers W||

    Well, he's a software engineer. He's like the real-life embodiment of that dude from Cryptonomicon. Except that that dude actually went to live in the woods.

  • White Indian||

    1. Isn’t it hypocritical of primitivists to use modern technology? If they want to live primitively so badly, why don’t they just run off into the woods already and do it?

    Not all primitivists are against technology in and of itself; only some. Many primitivists hold a view that technology is ambiguous. Technology is found among all “primitive” peoples to one extent or another, so obviously there is some sustainable level of techology. There is great disagreement among primitivists as to where that level is, but all agree that it isn’t our current level. Yes, we would like to see a lower level of technology, but since we have no problem with technology itself, why would we abstain from the use of our current, unsustainable technologies while they remain? One does not need to believe that a hammer is the greatest achievement of mankind, a miracle that ennobles us above all other animals and justifies our dominion over the earth, in order to use it to drive in a nail, after all. Neither does a computer. One can value science highly and still not believe that it is the sole or highest arbiter of truth; these are not mutually exclusive. And one can use the internet to spread the message that “the internet” and the infrastructure that supports it, is not going to last.

    So, the charge of hypocrisy only holds up if we extend the beliefs of some primitivists to all primitivists, or to primitivism itself. What of the second question–why don’t primitivists run off into the woods already?

    5 Common Objections to Primitivism, and Why They’re Wrong
    by Jason Godesky | 26 October 2005
    http://rewild.info/anthropik/2.....yre-wrong/

  • anon||

  • Bill||

    Seems disturbed.

  • yogi||

    One can value science highly and still not believe that it is the sole or highest arbiter of truth; these are not mutually exclusive.

    Jason,

    I'll bite, but please be succinct and no cut-and-paste. What *is* the highest arbiter of truth?

  • Trespassers W||

    Ironic != hypocritical. But it's easier to cut and paste a response if you assume so.

  • anon||

    I'll be honest, I didn't read it. Too busy helping him find some catalogs online.

  • City-Statist EVASION pretexts||

    "...it is none of your failures, errors or flaws, but the blank-out by which you attempt to evade them..."

    ~John Galt

    He had ya'll nailed.

  • anon||

    On a more serious note, Catalogs.com is awesome.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    Yes, we would like to see a lower level of technology, but since we have no problem with technology itself, why would we abstain from the use of our current, unsustainable technologies while they remain?

    Gee, I believe another fat, useless, inbred fuckwit, not unlike yourself, said something similar.

    Après moi, le déluge.
    -Louis XV

    Go ahead. Fuck principle, get yours.

  • Fuck principle||

    Sure you'd say that; the Non-Aggression Principle is merely a debate convenience anyway, discarded at the slightest hint you might be deprived of your big-government Land enTITLEments.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    Way to avoid the point, Jason. But it's still less interesting than your adderall-inspired copypasta.

  • fish||

    Clicked on his parked site...Anthropik.com. The first link is an ad for a lap-band weight loss procedure.

  • White Indian||

  • Trespassers W||

    The lap-band weight loss procedure is for when you don't have room to gambol.

  • White Indian||

    Jason's obesity is exceeded only by the bumptiousness of vanguard who shall save civilization -- by electing 2 dogcatchers in 30 years.

    Your shipload of fail has arrived.

  • Trespassers W||

    Don't get me wrong--I think you've adequately demonstrated that your obesity is the fault of the agricultural city-state. That's why it's called obeCITY.

  • Obesity: CIVILIZATION Syndrome||

    In your ignorance mockery, you actually got it right!

    Visceral obesity: a "civilization syndrome"
    Björntorp P. Department of Heart and Lung Diseases, Sahlgren's Hospital, University of Göteborg, Göteborg, Sweden.
    Obes Res. 1993 May;1(3):206-22.

  • anon||

    Do you speak Klingon too, or just dress up?

  • Trespassers W||

    I know, you post that repeatedly. It's well-informed mockery.

    That's why I think that your philosophy is really an elaborate weight-loss program.

  • City-Statist EVASION pretexts||

    "...it is none of your failures, errors or flaws, but the blank-out by which you attempt to evade them..."

    ~John Galt

    Keep dodgin' and weavin' if you want. He had ya'll nailed.

  • veemee sashimi||

    But annualized interest on a payday loan is silly. For the lender to make any money at all they have to charge something for the service. If at some point the loan repayment drags out a whole year, it's obviously in default anyway. No one is going to loan $200 at annual rate of 10% for a two week loan (a lending fee that would generate roughly 77 cents). It costs much more than that just to pay the person who processes the loan.

  • Rev. Blue Moon ||

    The "annualized interest" shenanigans is nothing more than a naked ploy to make the interest rate look artificially high. None of the screeming meemie Soccer Moms would vote against a short-term 15% loan, because that's what a fucking credit card charges you.

  • Brett L||

    Jesus. You must have good credit. Mine's about average and I get offered about 18% + prime. Also, the term is flexible, which makes them more expensive than a payday loan if you just make the payment schedules over maximum term.

  • Rev. Blue Moon ||

    My own privilege speaking there, I guess. I should learn to be more restrained.

    Regardless, though, the annualized interest tactic is dirty pool, and the people who fall for it are morons (i.e. voters).

  • Brett L||

    Rampant jealousy on my part. Although I "ruined" it mostly by telling Sprint to go fuck themselves, I wasn't paying them anymore and refinancing a 30yr 6.5% mortgage down to 15 yr and 4%. I paid the collection company on the Sprint bill the first day they called me. So I guess I'd rather have my score and my life than a better score and the alternative consequences.

  • Citizen Nothing||

    This. Anyone who trots out the annualized rate for a "payday" type loan is being disingenuous.

  • Brett L||

    I think I figured out where all the trolls have been coming from recently.

    "For the last six months, orangutans — those great, hairy, orange apes that go “ook” a lot — at Milwaukee zoo have been playing games and watching videos on Apple’s (seemingly ubiquitous) iPad, but now their keepers and the charity Orangutan Outreach want to go one step further and enable ape-to-ape video chat via Skype or FaceTime."

  • Why do you mock moral beings?||

    Frans, de Waal (1996). Good Natured: The Origins of Right and Wrong in Humans and Other Animals. London: Harvard University Press.

  • Anonymous Coward||

    Yawn.

  • Appalachian Australian||

    I used to hate payday lenders and would rant and rave about them to no end. One of my friends once confronted me, explaining how they helped her get through a serious bind once. Family/friends were also all tapped out and couldn't lend enough.

    She needed to move and was short of enough money to cough up the security deposit on the new place and pay her bills. The alternative would have been multiple late fees on her bills. Oh, and she had it paid off a few weeks later. I think she strung it 1 or 2 more pay cycles.

  • If it helps, it's good?||

    Hitler helped a lot of people in pre-war Germany. I used to hate him and would rant and rave about him to no end...

    LOL

  • rather||

    onetime I was chasing birds off my porch and I fell and pooped in my pants a little.

  • Rev. Blue Moon ||

    I know that in theory these shouldn't be funny, but they crack me up every time.

  • Bill||

    Me too.

  • squishua||

    I was once overdrawn by $8 on my bank account the day before payday and was hit with a $35 overdraft fee. If I want to be disingenuous about it, I can say the bank charged me $35 for a 24 hour "loan" of $8. This equates to nearly 160,000% APR! Waaaaah!

  • Concerned Citizen||

    Who do you think is behind the push to outlaw payday lenders? Here in Ohio they were ready to offer their own 'predatory' loans once the payday lenders were outlawed.

  • juris imprudent||

    I would've put my money on the Mob who obviously don't like the PayDay lenders competing the loan sharks.

  • Rev. Blue Moon ||

  • fish||

    That would make Cher yet another White Indian?

    Caught Godesky at a White Indian Get Together!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9Spc_isxSc

  • anon||

    Man, cocaine is a hell of a drug. Just think, some guy thought that video was -good-.

  • Who uses payday loans?||

    Why do the folks who borrow from payday lenders do so? For the first time, the 2007 SCF
    asked payday loan borrowers this question. While more than one-third payday loan borrowers
    (34 percent) said it was for the convenience factor, more than one-quarter (29 percent)
    cited an emergency and more than one-fifth (21 percent) cited a basic consumption
    need, such as paying for gas or for their car. Interestingly, just 8 percent said that they used
    a payday loan because it was the only option available to them.
    The 2001 report that cited a survey of 500 payday loan customers did not provide
    respondents with all of the response options. But they too found that a small share
    (7 percent) of borrowers withdrew the payday loan because there was no other alternative
    available to them.47
    Additionally, the 2001 report asked respondents what was the purpose of their payday
    loan and found that nearly two-thirds used it for an emergency, including an unplanned
    expense (47 percent) or a temporary income reduction (19 percent), while a little more
    than one-third used it for a discretionary purpose, including a planned expense (12 percent)
    or “other” (23 percent).48

  • Alice Bowie||

    People who are so down and out should go on Welfare, section-8, food stamps, energy coupons, and medicaid.

    People at the margin of Financial Doom should be allowed to go to these blood suckers for the last-chance loan. However, the borrower should be allowed to declare bankruptcy and default on these loans. And, the lender should charge the 50000%.

  • anon||

    Nice false premise you have:
    Only 5% of these loans are to people who have insufficient credit to pursue another avenue.

  • cynical||

    "People who are so down and out should go on Welfare"

    Why do you think Democrats are so keen on shutting payday lenders down?

    People who occasionally need a loan can recover and put things in order and become middle class. Payday loans are shitty, so they're going to try not to lean on that unless they really need to.

    Welfare's addictive. Once the poverty pimps get poor people hooked on that shit, they're going to stay poor -- and, needless to say, voting as they're told. Payday loans might sap your financial resources, but you can bounce back from that with some luck and effort. Welfare saps your will to even fight.

  • Alice Bowie||

    I would push for Workfair. Remember, Welfare has a five year limit. It is important to have this safety net. The country can always employee the person in a way in which that person may obtain skills to get a better paying job in private sector.

  • midbrowcrisis||

    Americans fear China as the next superpower. What we didn't know is that the next superpower is in our own backyard. Time for some small pox blanket get-back!....

  • cynical||

    So, first we drive them out of society, then we allow them to perform jobs that are forbidden to insiders, including "usury". This ends in a Holocaust at some point, doesn't it?

  • ||

    I've seen TV commercials for some Reservation-based loan company called Western Sky. They emphasize that they're not cheap. Nice of them to be honest about it.

  • ||

    Of course many people use loan service for different reasons, that’s why loans finance mamagement and their conditions are very different. Trying to regulate payday lending out of existence lenders seeking refuge on Indian reservations. The structure of this loans is a little different,it’s not payday loans,payments are made over a period of months or biweekly.

  • PaydayDesk||

    Well, payday loan industry grows really fast, there's variety of lenders and lending companies. But some of them offer extremely high interest rates and play an unfair game, there are also lots of scams on the lendindg market now, there are lots of people who just want to make more money on somebody's need of urgent cash, that's why it's worth to be exremely cautious and think twice or even more before taking out a loan. It may bring some help and provide quick money when it's necessary, but at the same time it can make a person's financial situation even worse than it was before. Lots of people misuse payday loans and have problems with paying them off, it partly explains why these loans have doubtful reputation.

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