Reason Morning Links: Payroll Tax Cut Fails In Senate, IMF Considering $270 Billion Euro Bailout, BART Adopts Cell-Phone Shutdown Rule

  • Senate Republicans rejected two different payroll tax cuts yesterday; the one prposed by Obama, and the one proposed by Senate Minority Leader Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.).
  • Bloomberg: "A European proposal to channel central bank loans through the International Monetary Fund may deliver as much as 200 billion euros ($270 billion) to fight the debt crisis, two people familiar with the negotiations said."
  • Jobless rate drops from 9 percent to 8.6 percent; Reuters take: "Further evidence the economic recovery was gaining momentum." (E.A.)
  • TIME asks, "Can Ron Paul Win the Anti-Romney Primary?"; the answer they get closely resembles a "yes." 
  • Criminal charges have been filed against 18 Occupy L.A. protesters, and "most of the 291 people arrested early Wednesday remained jailed because they can't afford to post bail." 
  • The FCC signed off on a rule passed yesterday by Bay Area Rapid Transit that says the agency can deny cell service to passengers whenever BART thinks being able to use a phone would jeopardize public safety. 

New at Reason.tv: "Peter Schiff Talks to the 1 Percent! 'We're not even near the bottom yet!'"

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  • Suki||

  • Suki||

    A Brady Center drone says 'did not!'

  • ||

    Except the Brady law requires the government to track gun sales data.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/n.....51554972/1

  • Suki||

    Exactly. That is why I had to include his awesome quote Dennis Henigan, acting president of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, who said he was "skeptical" of the Black Friday gun surge.

    Obama is the best gun salesman ever!

  • ||

    "...so come oonnnnnn down to Crazy Obamas Guns and Used Autos!"

  • Suki||

    +10

  • ||

    Gander Mountain was open Thanksgiving and PACKED. I got $100 off an SR9c, I was happy.

  • Spoonman.||

    Hey Tulpa, are there any restrictions on rifle ownership in PA? Going to be moving to Montgomery County soon.

  • ||

    Tulpa lives in Penna? I thought he was seasteading on Lake Erie.

  • ||

    No, that was just the petition from his current neighbors,

  • ||

    He'll be moving in with his girlfriend soon, I imagine.

  • ||

    They have available housing in fantasyland?

  • ||

    Lucky in love, unlucky in fantasy football...

  • Gray Ghost||

    Lucky in love, unlucky in fantasy football...

    Tell me about it.

  • Suki||

    Spoonman, try pafoa [dot] org/law

  • ||

    Only the federal restrictions. And there's a preemption law here so the more "progressive" localities can't pass any extra restrictions on firearms.

    PA is great on gun rights, maybe a little too great (handing out concealed carry licenses with no training requirement is not a good idea imho). Castle Doctrine, Stand Your Ground, all the good stuff is in effect.

  • ||

    Again, present evidence. Have an informed opinion. Some states have ccw training requirements. Some don't . If training requirements WORK, then there should be plenty of data that show good results in states that require same vs. those that don't. Where is it? Until such data is presented, there is no reason to advocate for additional restrictions.IF there is such data, then a balancing test argument could be made

  • ||

    The training requirement that shall-issue states like OH, FL, etc have is not much of a "restriction". Anyone willing to spend eight hours and $40 or so can satisfy it.

    I don't like the idea of people walking the streets around me with .45 semiautos inside their coats who have never heard of the rules of gun safety, whose only idea of how guns work and what bullets do comes from Hollywood and TV, and have possibly never even fired their weapon before.

  • PermaLurker||

    It's a nice idea in theory. But I've found that driver's licenses don't ensure good drivers, medical licenses don't ensure good doctors, etc etc. Why would gun safety licensing requirements be any different.

    Issue to all and let Darwin sort them out.

  • ||

    Plus of course PA's lack of a training requirement limits the states with which we have reciprocity agreements. I was thinking of getting a FL non-resident permit so I could carry in OH while traveling.

  • The Dan||

    no hunting with semi auto

  • Suki||

    That so rocks!

  • Obama's 2d Term !||

    so how'd that first round of obama's GUN CONFISCATION go? same as the FEMA camps & death panels no doupt.

    simps

  • Suki||

    The death panels don't get impaneled until 2014.

  • ||

    I wouldn't know; aren't we in Bush's third term after he and Cheney canceled the elections?

  • Suki||

    +1

  • Suki||

    We were supposed to all be drafted by now too.

  • ||

    Son, there ain't no draft no more.

  • Barely Suppressed Rage||

    You seem to be duped into the belief that he would not move to more stringently regulate, ban or confiscate privately-owned guns if he could. Fortunately, he is faced with the hard reality that the majority of American people won't stand for that jackassery. Too many Dems still remember the ass-kicking they got in 1994 as a result of federal gun-ban legislation. They're still (if you'll excuse the expression) gun-shy about it.

    Short answer: he would if he could. He has made that clear. Just take a look at his legislative record from when he was in the Illinois legislature. When he wasn't voting "present," he was working to restrict private gun ownership.

    Even shorter: STFU, idiot.

  • o3||

    yea and if elephants had wings they'd fly

  • WTF||

    And if o3 had a brain he'd make sense.

  • S&W, Ruger, Colt||

    BUY guns NOW, NOW, NOW before the kenyian takes em !

  • ||

    Here's the Obama admin's gun control in action.

    http://www.news4jax.com/news/T.....index.html

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Give that fucker a 2nd term and a solid Team Blue majority, and he'd do just what you snarked about.

  • Shorter FIFY||

    Just like rush said so there

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Nice try, candyass, but I quit listening to Limbaugh about twenty years ago.

  • ||

    OhNo Orkin hasn't heard of the UN Small Arms Treaty that the Obamarrhoids are trying to get signed before 2013.

  • o3||

    like this UN treaty has an ice cube's chance of senate ratification

  • Metazoan||

    Even still, didn't Reid v. Covert establish the supremacy of the Constitution?

  • ||

    Yes, but as of current SCOTUS precedent, the Second Amendment protects nothing but the right to possess a working gun in your home. The feds can ban carry outside the home at any time.

    And if the anti-Romney buttmunches around here get their wish, and Obama appoints Scalia's and Kennedy's replacements, you can bet that's going to be the apex of your Second Amendment rights in practice.

  • ||

    And if the pro-Romney buttmunches around here get their wish, and Obama appoints Scalia's and Kennedy's replacements, you can bet that's going to be the apex of your Second Amendment rights in practice.

    FTFY

  • ||

    Jobless rate drops from 9 percent to 8.6 percent

    Adding 120K jobs is ok, but not good. A steady-state sort of number, not enough during a high unemployment period. 310K people dropping out of the labor force is the real reason the rate went down, and that's not good.

  • Restoras||

    310K people dropping out of the labor force is the real reason the rate went down, and that's not good

    Can't be stressed enough.

  • ||

    ^^Exactly. If we could just reduce the participation rate by another 5.1 million people, we'd have a literal employment vacuum!

  • ||

    120K is not even OK. How many new workers were added to the economy during that time? We need to be adding three or four hundred thousand jobs a quarter to really start turning things around.

  • ||

    If we (media, etal.) are to be obsessed with such 'singular' numbers to represent the state of employment, wouldn't it make more sense to just show the number of people employed today vs. the number of people employed yesterday?

    All other adjustments (such as labor participation, seasonality) would be footnoted and reported as supplemental information rather than as the primary data.

  • ||

    But that would make Obama look bad.

  • o3||

    loz an things were differnt under buhs?

  • o3||

    cuz i thinks an average of 5% unemplotyment is juzt az bad derp de derpity derp

  • ||

    Well, immigration is down.

    Yes, we need to be adding 300-400K to "really start turning things around." 120K would be fine if we already had low unemployment/high labor force participation. It's a steady state number, not a "things are getting better" number, as I said.

  • Spoonman.||

    But we need to be employing immigrants as well as Americans to keep ourselves fresh and innovative.

  • WTF||

    And how many of those jobs are temporary seasonal jobs?

  • mad libertarian guy||

    This.

    It shouldn't surprise anyone that jobless rates have gone down during the retail boom of the year.

    Of course the media will be surprised when unemployment unexpectedly goes up again in January.

  • ||

    Supposedly seasonal hiring is down this year as stores are trying to get by with what they already have.

  • ||

    Also John, you mean 300-400K jobs per month, not per quarter, to really turn things around.

  • Suki||

    When it is revised downward all of the news writers and economists will be "surprised".

  • ||

    It will happen "unexpectedly". If we had any real artists in this country, they would do "Obama the Musical". Their could be an entire Gilbert and Sullivan type number about how bad economic news always happens "unexpectedly". I see Obama as kind of a Tommy like deaf dumb figure with various idiots destroying the country around him in his name.

  • Suki||

    Unexpectedly is what I was trying to remember. TY! :)

  • ||

    I see something like this number for the Fearless 4th Estate of the Obama era.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAc5Z89SjH8

  • ||

    The musical writes itself. You could have the occutards, the wise Latina, Eric Holder smuggling guns to Mexico, the Obama "I capped that sucker" victory number after Obama, Al Wilaki could have a part. The Tea Party, Barney Frank. It would be perfect.

  • Maxxx||

    Socialist realism art doesn't tolerate parody John.

  • Brett L||

    It's more that its already unintentionally self-parodying as written.

  • ||

    The important part of selling any musical is the title. Suggestions:
    "The Audacity of Music"
    "Springtime for Cronies"
    "Rats"
    "All That Spin"

  • mad libertarian guy||

    How about "Hope and Change"?

  • Cytotoxic||

    Sounds like a job for whoever made the Yellow Flowers advert for Cain!

  • AuH20||

    In future generations, are they just going to be dumbfounded at the media coverage of Obama?

    Like how I can't believe the coverage that was given to the Soviet Union in the 20s and 30s?

  • Maxxx||

    Adding 120K jobs is ok,

    Not really, population grows by approx 240k a month. With a 65% workforce participation rate - that means that 150+ jobs need to be created each month just to keep up with population growth.

    A real recovery would see job growth in the 300-400k a month range.

  • ||

    That's a slight overstatement of the numbers, plus even in a great economy a third of the population of the relevant age never enters the labor force, so the correct value even with your numbers would be 180K.

    "To keep up with population growth, the economy needs to add approximately 127,000 jobs every month".



    "As the chart below shows, according to the traditionally optimistic Congressional Budget Office, the US has to create 121,000 jobs per month in 2011 just to keep pace with population growth."
  • Maxxx||

    What part is an overstatement?

    Population growth is 240k / month (0.09% per year) and a 65% lfpr yields a labor force growing by 150k+/month.

    Even if you go with the lower employed as a percent of population rate of 58.4% you get a number of 140k/month meaning that the unemployment rate will gradually increase with a job growth of 120k/month.

    The household survey, which the headline rate is based on, is seriously flawed and subject to political manipulation.

  • ||

    The household survey numbers are weird.

    I don't have time to go through the entire discussion of why 120K is the current best average for needed job growth, it includes some details about the aging baby boomers.

    You can click through to the links and follow to the CBO report if you like.

  • AuH20||

    Also, wait until Europe implodes. Depression won't do it justice.

  • Montani Semper Liberi||

    Retail stores are gearing up for the holiday rush. Expect unemployment to go back up in January.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    Bail was set between $5,000 and $20,000 for the defendants, Trutanich said.

    Most of the 291 people arrested early Wednesday remained jailed because they can't afford to post bail, attorney Ian Thompson said at a news conference Thursday. To be released, the activists would have to post 10 percent of their bail amount.

    They've been looking for something fresh to write on their "I am the 99%" cards.

  • o2||

    Second foreign auto worker hassled: Will Alabama immigration law cost state?
    First, a foreign auto worker was arrested. Now one has been ticketed under Alabama's anti-illegal-immigration law. Could neighboring states lure away businesses that employ foreigners?

    By Patrik Jonsson, Staff writer / December 1, 2011

    Citing the embarrassing arrest of a foreign auto worker under Alabama's new immigration law, a Missouri newspaper recently extended an open invitation to companies like Mercedes to leave Alabama for more hospitable climes.

    Our state has many advantages over Alabama,” writes the St. Louis Post-Dispatch's editorial board. “We are the Show-Me State, not the 'Show me your papers' state.”

    http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2.....cost-state

  • ||

    So we've officially moved from the "racist" angle of criticizing the law to the "persecutes foreign executives" angle. Just keeping track of the open border crowd's movements.

  • Zeb||

    I see no reason why it can't be considered both racist and bad for business. You don't have to choose just one.

  • ||

    Tulpa, liberty means the right to travel unmolested by state actors.

  • 03||

    but not if ur brown, black, yellow, & now german.

  • ||

    Unless you're breaking the law...

  • o3||

    illegal immigration is a civil, not criminal violation.

  • ||

    It's ipso facto not racist if white corporate executives are getting arrested too, hotshot.

  • Zeb||

    The intent behind the law could still be racist. You think that the people who wrote the law had German executives in mind when they were thinking of potential illegal immigrants? Hotshot?

    By the way, I don't fucking care if the law is racist or not. I think it is stupid and wrong for completely different reasons. I do think that a lot (but certainly not all) of the law's supporters are stupid racists, though.

  • ||

    Or maybe they were masturbating to sheep porn when they wrote it!

    It doesn't matter what their intent was, what matters is how it is/can be enforced.

  • Suki||

    open invitation to companies like Mercedes to leave Alabama for more hospitable climes
    The Alps?

  • ||

    Maybe the writer was trying to draw in the Asian auto workers as well, and was noting that violent assaults are down in StL.

  • Suki||

    Are the violent assaults against Asian vehicles down in Flint, MI yet?

  • ||

    Sure - no other country hassles people over work Visas. Except all of them.

    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/en.....onditions/

  • Zeb||

    If everyone else was jumping off a cliff, woudl you do it too?

  • Montani Semper Liberi||

    So we should adopt nationalized health care, too, because everyone else does it, right?

  • ||

    The question asked was "Will Alabama immigration law cost state?"

    If the question was "how should we handle foreign workers?", I would have different comments and questions. What's the right way to collect taxes on them? How do we ensure they aren't collecting state benefits (assuming we can't do away with the welfare state), etc...

  • ||

    (assuming we can't do away with the welfare state)...

    This.

    We will not do away with the welfare state. People like their free shit. Open borders are not compatible with the welfare state...full stop.

  • Zeb||

    Two wrongs don't make a right.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    Unemployment drops as Alabama's immigration reform enacted

    Unemployment rates have fallen in Alabama amid new legal pressure on companies to comply with a popular immigration reform law.

    September was the first full month that the reform was in force, and the unemployment rate fell from 9.8 percent in September to 9.3 percent in October, according to a Nov. 18 report from the state government.

    The rates fell from 9.9 percent to 9 percent in Etowah County, from 8.8 percent to 8.1 percent in Marshall county, and from 11.6 percent to 10.6 percent in DeKalb county...

    Every county in Alabama saw a drop in unemployment, including Wilcox, Dallas and Bullock counties, where unemployment rates are greater than 16.5 percent.

    A spokesman for Thomas Perez, who heads the Department of Justice’s Civil Rights Division, declined to comment when asked if the state’s job gains were evidence that the state’s reform is successful.

    Fuckin' LOL.

    http://dailycaller.com/2011/11.....m-enacted/

  • 03||

    and yet the bama gop is revising the law after the business outcry.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    you gotta apply discipline before you can apply leniency.

  • o3||

    reality not leniency

  • Metazoan||

    Wow ever hear of the post hoc fallacy?

  • ||

    Swiss Govt: Downloading Movies and Music Will Stay Legal

    http://torrentfreak.com/swiss-.....al-111202/

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    Not only will downloading for personal use stay completely legal, but the copyright holders won’t suffer because of it, since people eventually spend the money saved on entertainment products.

    But what about the attorneys? Won't someone think of the attorneys?

  • ||

    I do think of them. At the bottom of the sea.

  • ||

    HEY!
    The 99% make the good ones look bad.

  • Ice Nine||

    If the race for the Republican nomination were a children’s story – and let’s face it, Little Miss Moffett, Jack Horner and Dumbo sometimes come to mind – then Ron Paul would surely be the tortoise.

    What?? Count the mistakes in that. (Does Payne maybe write for Time as well?)

  • Beloved Rev. Blue Moon ||

    1. Two of them are children's nursery rhymes.
    2. One is a child's movie.
    3. The tortoise is from an Aesop's fable, not a "children's story" per se.
    4. Oh, and it's "Muffett" not "Moffett"

    Did I get them all?

  • Ice Nine||

    You got more than I did - but not all. The worst is that the whole sentence is a grating non sequitur. It's actually a compound non sequitur. That part of it flanking the dashes is bad enough but considering that part of it within them it is doubly egregious. It's the worst thing I've read written by a professional writer in a long time.

  • ||

    People don't care about writing when you are telling them what they want to hear.

  • ||

    The saddest part of all is that all of that made it past several layers of editors. IT'S THE FUCKING LEDE AND YOU STILL DIDN'T CATCH IT.

    I weep for the future of our nation.

  • ||

    Stupid joke handles.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    "If we were faced with the exact same situation, we would not shut off cell phone service," said Bob Franklin, board president. "We would arrest people."

    Anyone with a cell phone, boom, arrested. Tased first, of course.

  • T||

    It's BART. They might mistake the pistol for a taser and then boom for reals.

  • Obama's 2d Term !||

    Jobless rate drops to 8.6 percent, hiring picks up

    Lucia Mutikani WASHINGTON | Fri Dec 2, 2011 9:01am EST

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Employment growth picked up speed in November and the jobless rate dropped to a 2-1/2 year low of 8.6 percent, further evidence the economic recovery was gaining momentum.

    http://www.reuters.com/article.....4I20111202

    _

    without the [JOBZ] card, the gop has no hand to play...except for the wealthy

  • ||

    It is called labor participation rate you half wit. When people stop looking for work the rate goes down. 120K isn't even close to good job growth.

  • ||

    120 thousand isn't even close to population growth, and really lousy considering we're going into Christmas.

  • ||

    I hadn't thought about Christmas. That is a good point. How much of that is seasonal hiring?

  • Montani Semper Liberi||

    About 40%. 49,800 jobs added in retail according to the linked Reuter's article.

  • ||

    Aren't these numbers seasonally adjusted?

  • ||

    120 thousand is what we need to match population growth.

    Remember that even in good times, not 100% of people in the relevant age brackets work.

  • KDN||

    When people stop looking for work the rate goes down. 120K isn't even close to good job growth.

    So is this like fractions or something? Where the bottom number goes down the number past the equal sign goes up? Math is soooooo hard.

    When I stopped into the break room to get my coffee this morning, CNN's newsbabe wannabe was dealing with a graph showing that things since Obama took office have been steadily improving, that this number represents more progress, and that Republicans are evil liars. It's like they can't be bothered to check for context.

  • ||

    Considering the news babe probably got her job through her ability to tow the liberal lion and give a proper blowjob, I am not surprised this is beyond her grasp.

  • Ice Nine||

    I see what you did there.

  • o3||

    u mean trying to jerry sandusky CNN ?

  • o3||

    derp de derpity derp

  • ||

    How do the Fox newsbabes get theirs? It's all skill andimpartiality, right John?

  • T||

    Blonde hair and a nice rack seem to help, though.

  • RoboCain||

    You don't get it.

  • ||

    God, I hope not. I want those smokin' hot babes to be sluts, too.

  • ||

    "Andimpartiality." Is that something to do with the state of being without dimples? What are you trying to say?

  • ||

    and impartiality. My mouth was full.

  • ||

    I liked your other word better.

  • Ice Nine||

    "Andimpartiality." Is that something to do with the state of being without dimples?

    More like the graphic representation thereof.

  • AuH20||

    Honestly, Fox, for the love of christ, hire a hot brunette or redhead.

    WHY IS THIS SO HARD? NOT ALL GENTLEMEN PREFER BLONDES!

  • ||

    They have a couple over on Fox Bidness.

  • Atanarjuat||

    Yep. FBN has a huge juxtaposition between the hotness of the female anchors and the ugliness of the businessmen they interview.

  • ||

    How else? By towing the fox lion and giving a proper blow job.

  • Jerry||

    The fall in the unemployment rate was aided by 315,000 people leaving the workforce. That pushed the participation rate, a ratio of the amount of the population in the labor force, down to 64.0 percent.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    without the [JOBZ] card, the gop has no hand to play...except for the wealthy

    Employment to population ratio still far below 2001 recession levels and actually showed a slight decline in the last month.

    The U3, in other words, isn't reflecting reality.

  • Chinny Chin Chin||

    Orin, remember your manners. What do we say to the wealthy when they create jobs?

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Oh, wow! Down to 8.6 percent! It's The Summer of Recovery Part Two!

  • sarcasmic||

    Public service announcement: Megan Fox is still hot.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvs.....stmas.html

  • sarcasmic||

    And John, this one's for you.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvs.....-free.html

  • RoboCain||

    Yuck.

  • Ice Nine||

    What, it's not bad enough that we're forced to look at those Kardashian skanks with makeup?

  • Abdul||

    Rosie O'Donnell has never looked younger....oh wait. . .

  • ||

    This one's for you sarc.

  • sarcasmic||

    I like women who are thin, not dead.

  • ||

    Lamar Odom's got to be in it for the money, because he could have done so much better.

  • ||

    I need to choose my words carefully so I am not mistook on here.

    Khloe Kardashian is ugly as fuck.

  • ||

    it freezes, it burns!

  • Ice Nine||

    What a porker!

  • ||

    Megan Fox is a skank. NTTAWWT. But she looks like she could be in those pics of drunk British tarts you put up yesterday.

  • sarcasmic||

    Except that Megan Fox is infinitely more fuckable than those British sluts.

  • ||

    If you like skanks, sure.

  • sarcasmic||

    Skanks need sex too!

  • ||

    I heartily agree.

  • Elder Scrolls Enthusiast AuH20||

    Megan Fox would give great blowjobs, I bet.

  • CaptainSmartass||

    Only if you could convince her that semen has zero calories and zero carbs.

  • ||

    Megan Fox can't even spell "calorie," let alone "carbohydrate."

  • Maxxx||

    Doubtful.

  • Restoras||

    Yes indeed. I like the, ah, come-hither boots. I wonder if she has a pair in black.

  • ||

    I love come fuck me boots. It makes winter worth while.

  • ||

    It's the *only* thing that makes winter tolerable.

  • Restoras||

    I couldn't agree more.

  •  ||

    Way too much information.

  • sarcasmic||

    My wife has taken to wearing boots with heals lately, not quite as high to the knees though.
    Damn they look nice on the floor ;-)

  • sarcasmic||

    *heels*

  • ||

    She's supposed to leave them on, doofus.

  • Restoras||

    Either or. You're a licky man, Mr. S.

  • Restoras||

    Damn it. Lucky man. But I see licky kinda works too.

  • Every Woman on the Planet||

    "Kinda"?!

  • Montani Semper Liberi||

    I find that if you are licky, you tend to get lucky.

  • jerry sandusky||

    lathered-up & licky works !

  • sarcasmic||

    I find that if you are licky, you tend to get lucky.

    Aye!

  • ||

    "Ooooooooo what licky man he was!

  • Montani Semper Liberi||

    Agreed.

  • sarcasmic||

    You mean put them back on? Nah.

  • ||

    You have much to learn yet, grasshopper.

  • ||

    Damn they look nice on the floor ;-)

    I bet tehy would look even better pointed at the ceiling.

  • ||

    Do you see now grasshopper? Master Dean is most wise in the matters most important.

  • Restoras||

    Or at the headboard, even.

  • Apatheist||

    Or on the floor but still on her feet. On the floor off her feet is the worst of all these places.

  • RoboCain||

    Meh.

  • ||

    All of these women look like they could use a shower...and shampoo twice.

  • ||

    The FCC signed off on a rule passed yesterday by Bay Area Rapid Transit that says the agency can deny cell service to passengers whenever BART thinks being able to use a phone would jeopardize public safety.

    In libertopia, wouldn't property owners have the right to deny cell service to people on their property?

  • Montani Semper Liberi||

    BART is a private enterprise?

  • ||

    In libertopia there would also be competing transit and transportation lines.

    I suspect that if we didn't have the FCC regulations, for example, at least *some* airline would allow electronics during takeoff.

  • tarran||

    Not necessarily.

    One could argue that the cell-phone companies have homesteaded the frequencies they use and that Bart is in the position of building a fence across someone else's land.

  • ||

    Years ago, the father of an old girlfriend was lifting "cable" tee-vee that was being broadcast, using a coffee can antenna. When I asked him if he thought that was stealing, he replied, "If they don't want me to have it, then they can keep it out of my house."

    I couldn't argue with that.

    And yes, as a property owner, I have every right to do what I want with my airspace, in libertopia. If you don't like it, you're free to not come on my property.

  • Ice Nine||

    Coffee can antenna? Never heard of it. Does this work worth a damn?

  • RoboCain||

    Coffee can antennae work in general, but like any other kind of antenna they can only receive what is already in the air and have a limited bandwidth.

  • ||

    No, a property owner does not have the right to shut off cell phone service as (1) he does not own the cell phones;
    (2) he does not own the air through which the signals are being transmitted; (3) land acquisition does not include the right to violate the property rights of others who are on the owner's land.

  • ||

    When you are on my land, you will abide by my rules, or you are free to leave it.

    It's pretty fucking simple.

  • ||

    Then again, considering what a temeritous twat you were when the owners of this site requested that you hold your tongue on particular matters, I shouldn't be too surprised that you have such a tenuous grasp on the concept of property rights.

    It's not all about you, boy.

  • ||

    If you are on my land, do I have the right to tell you that you can't use your cell phone? Or speak French? Or comb your hair?

    Included within the panopoly of property rights are little thingies call individual rights which are not waived or nullified or extinguished just because A is physically upon B's real estate.

  • ||

    If you are on my land, do I have the right to tell you that you can't use your cell phone? Or speak French? Or comb your hair?

    Yes, yes and yes. You can also tell me to shut my big, fat mouth, if you don't like what I'm saying. Again, you're free to leave my land and do whatever the hell you want, once you do so. Kinda like you can't force a web site or a newspaper that you have no ownership in to publish your views against their wishes.

    Included within the panopoly of property rights are little thingies call individual rights which are not waived or nullified or extinguished just because A is physically upon B's real estate.

    Your rights aren't being nullified. They still exist in full force, just like mine do. Right now, mine have precedence, as I own the land you're standing on. When I'm standing on your land, yours do.

    See how that works?

  • ||

    No, you are wrong. If you are on my land, I do not have the right to prevent you from smiling or using your cell phone.

    One does not surrender his individual rights such as smiling or using a cell phone just because he is on the real estate of another.

    Too complicated for you?

  • ||

    So, if I own a non-smoking bar, which patrons come to specifically for that reason, you can light up if you damn well please and I should have no recourse? You can squat on my land? You can shit in my flower beds? You can pretty much do as you damn well please and I can go fuck myself?

    Interesting. Do you have a newsletter I can subscribe to?

  • ||

    One does not surrender his individual rights such as smiling or using a cell phone just because he is on the real estate of another.

    Technically this is true, but as a practical matter it isn't. The property owner has every right to (a) exclude you from his property or (b) remove you from his property at any time barring some contractual agreement stating otherwise.

    So your right to do X does not prevent the property owner from demanding you leave the property if you do X.

  • Barely Suppressed Rage||

    If you are on my land, do I have the right to tell you that you can't use your cell phone? Or speak French?

    Absolument.

    Next question?

  • Movie theater||

    If you use your cell phone, we reserve the right to remove you from our private property, so yeah.

  • ||

    Sort of like you can argue that the Boston Public Health Commission has homesteaded the atmosphere and any bar that allows smoking has violated their property rights.

  • ||

    One could argue that the cell-phone companies have homesteaded the frequencies they use and that Bart is in the position of building a fence across someone else's land.

    That argument essentially nullifies the advantages of a private property system in land.

    And as dubious as the natural law justifications for private ownership of land are, the justification for ownership of completely non-physical things from first principles is even murkier. Once you cross that bridge it's not clear why someone can't own fire or absolute zero or gamma rays.

  • Tonio||

    But in Libertopia there would also be contracts...and you could choose to not do business with a transport provider who didn't guarantee to not interfere with cell phone service...

  • ||

    Indeed, but you can refuse to do business with BART as it is.

  • ||

  • ||

    That guy just needs to be shot. It bothers me that he is breathing my air.

  • Ice Nine||

    It bothers me that they are so incompetent.

  • Abdul||

    What's wrong with you Buckeyes? If it's not Amish beard-cutting attacks, it's hunting humans for sport.

  • ||

    It all went to shit when John Cooper got invited into the state.

  • PantsFan||

    They are hunting the most dangerous game of all.

  • Beloved Rev. Blue Moon ||

    You are not going to believe this, but despite the fact that is one of my favorite stories, I just now got that "game" has a double meaning in the title.

    No shit.

  • ||

    http://thehill.com/blogs/e2-wi.....y-concerns

    EPA swears they won't cause the lights to go out, trust them. Cause electricity rates to sky rocket achieving Obama's stated goal, not mentioned.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    When asked how, as President, Paul would get around Congress to enact some of his more radical ideas, like doing away with the Department of Education, Paul replies that his election would send a message. “Everyone in Washington would know that that’s where the electorate is, that that’s what the people want,” he says.

    Yes, President Paul, Congress is all about taking its cues from the electorate.

  • ||

    True. They would go ballistic. But they would also wet their pants when it happened. Lets be honest though, if Paul got 5% of what he wanted, it would be the best Presidency since Reagan and maybe since the 20s.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    Stationing troops at home rather than overseas at least should be an easy sell.

    "That base in your district that shut down and tanked the local economy, Congressman? Guess what..."

  • ||

    Never happen. It would cost more money to reopen those basis than to leave the troops in Germany. Most of them have been sold to crooked developers.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    Never happen shut down foreign bases or never happen re-open closed bases in the States?

  • ||

    Do you know how hard it is to open a base? The money buying the land, the environmental law suits. Yeah, we really are that fucked up. We could expand the ones we have. But even that takes years.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    Then I'm not even going to vote for Ron Paul.

  • ||

    Most of them have been sold to crooked developers.

    Just eminent that shit back.

  • free2booze||

    I love listening to people go into a frenzied panic, over the suggestion that we do away with the federal department of education. It's almost as if their weren't 50 individual DOE's, one in each state, with bureaucrats of their own.

  • ||

    Didn't you know that there was no public education system in this country until Jimmy Carter created it?

  • ||

    We were pretty stupid back then.
    Luckily, foriegners like Einstein and Bell, having gotten good foreign educations, came here to help our economy. Carter brought us the idea of having schools in 1979.

    It's been a lernin' orgy since.

  • CrackertyAssCracker||

    I hate the complaint in real life. When I hear it I know that person doesn't understand a god damn thing about how our goverment works, so if I were to be truthful with them, I'd say "you really are ignorant huh? please don't vote. It's dipshits like you who are fucking everything up".

  • ||

    Congress is all about taking its cues from the electorate.

    Oh, but it is. They'll do what they have to do to get re-elected. Politicians who don't don't get re-elected.

    The failure to achieve libertarian results in politics is fundamentally about insufficient popularity of them in the electorate, whether that's because of scare stories or tribal loyalty or whatever.

  • sarcasmic||

    They'll do what they have to do to get re-elected.

    They get re-elected by default.
    They have to fuck up royally to not get re-elected.
    I'm sure they would consider going along with president Paul as fucking up.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    PPACA seems to suggest otherwise. I think what we see is, as a result, a greater effort to hide their dealings. And just as important as getting re-elected is funneling as many tax dollars as possible to themselves and their backers.

    If re-election doesn't happen, lobbying pays pretty well.

  • ||

    PPACA seems to suggest otherwise.

    Exception that proves the rule. There's a reason why Democrats didn't pass something like PPACA before and refused to do so under Clinton and a Democratic Congress.

  • ||

    Remember that Obama tried to convince everyone that things were different because he was special and could affect the elections, and that the polls really would turn around if they just passed the law.

    Nope.

  • ||

    The Dems were bound to crash and burn in 2010 anyway with all the red districts they picked up in 2006 and 2008 on the strength of anti-Bush fever. 2012 and 2014 are going to be seriously bad elections for the Dems in the Senate for the same reason, regardless of what they do.

  • ||

    thought the conclusion was interesting as well:

    The odds of Paul being elected President remain low. But surprisingly strong showings in Iowa and New Hampshire and enough money to organize outside of the early states mean Paul could stay in the race through the spring and garner an eyebrow-raising number of delegates. And that in itself would send a clear message to Romney, or whomever the nominee is: this is where much of the Republican base is, leave it at your own peril. An ideological win for the slow and steady tortoise.

    This year the delegates are distributed proportionally, not winner-take-all, correct? If so, this impact could be pretty significant.

  • kinnath||

    Allocated proportionally until the 1st of april. So yes, if Paul can do well in the early primaries and caucuses, he can stop Romney from getting a majority of the delegates before the convention starts.

  • ||

    The previous primary it was up to the states to decide. Some were proportional, some were winner take all.

    I haven't heard whether too many states changed their individual rules.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    It's precious how the columnist characterizes the elimination of a Cabinet post that's only been around a little over 30 years and has never accomplished anything of note (besides dumbing down educational quality on a nation-wide basis) to be "radical."

  • Tonio||

    But in a world in which RP was elected president, you'd also assume that voters would vote libertarian for other offices and that he'd have a posse in congress.

    Plus, the POTUS has authority over executive-branch agencies like DOE. He can't (legally) ignore the laws establishing the dept, but there's nothing to say he can't downsize it to ten positions.

  • ||

    ""Yes, President Paul, Congress is all about taking its cues from the electorate.""

    Paul knows, and more importantly believes, that the executive is limited. He knows he can't just run around congress to suit his ends.

  • PantsFan||

    Daniel Hannan's 10-Point Memo to Leftists

    Here's a snippet:

    Those of us who believe in small government are not motivated by the desire to make the rich richer. We’re really not. We are, in most cases, nowhere near having to pay top rate tax ourselves; our most eloquent champions over the years have been modestly-paid academics. We believe that economic freedom will enrich the country as a whole. Yes, the wealthy might become wealthier still, but we don't see that as an argument against raising living standards for the majority.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/n.....lly-think/

  • ||

    the wealthy might become wealthier still

    BLARRRRRGGGHHHHHLLLLBGGGGZZZZZAAAAGGGOW!!!! :::head asplodes:::

  • 03||

    are the wealthy [JOBZ] creators creating [JOBZ] yet ?

  • Spoonman.||

    ...Weren't you pumping the better unemployment numbers upthread?

  • 03||

    oh u mean the "seasonal employment" at xmas as the libtoidz declared ?

  • Goalposts||

    I like to move it,move it
    She likes to move it,move it
    He likes to move it,move it
    You like to ("move it")

  • o3||

    ok thats funny

  • WTF||

    is the [IDIOT] o3 making [SENSE] yet?

  • ||

    With all the uncertainty caused by our politicians right now, I wouldn't unless I was sure it helped my business. Not knowing what taxes and health insurance costs will be makes it difficult to project if I will be able to hire people for the positions I need filled and at how much I can afford to offer them.

    Shorter Bones: Get your head out of your ass, o3.

  • ||

    "A European proposal to channel central bank loans through the International Monetary Fund may deliver as much as 200 billion euros ($270 billion) to fight the debt crisis, two people familiar with the negotiations said."

    Oh cool!

    Free money!

    Why didn't we think of that?

  • Barely Suppressed Rage||

    This might have been discussed here already - I can't spend my whole day here, ya know, so if it was mentioned and I missed it, feel free to sue me.

    But anyhow - have you seen "The American People's New Economic Charter", a "crowd-sourced" document being worked on by the OWS gangs?

    See here.

    Among the many lovely proposals for reforming Ameican society is this gem:

    Teach character building classes from grade one, measure success based on drive/cooperation/interactions with others, not only final outcome. Impose universal morality for parents who do not participate in raising their children. Remove children from households with parents who refuse to educate them properly.
  • ||

    This shit never changes and never goes away does it?

  • Barely Suppressed Rage||

    Yeah, there's this one too:

    The government should act as a national database of citizens, with only such information as: name, dob, ss#/voter id, schools attended, driver’s license #, address/phone, medical record #. Citizens will not be allowed to own guns. They can be used in shooting ranges. We cannot let Jarred Louhgners to corrupt our society any more - and he needed extensive medical care, which others will receive in the Great Reset.
  • ||

    It is never pretty when liberals let the mask slip.

  • 03||

    slip? they're explicitly stating their principles on an open forum.

  • o3||

    I speshally lik theyz speling n gramar

  • ||

    Maybe it would be a good idea if they tried this out as an experiment on a smaller scale first, just to work out the bugs. Somewhere remote and with a lower population, just to to limit any potential damage, say, like in Cambodia.

  • ||

    It's the year Zero!

  • ||

    I think that year is still in beta, like v. 0.4.1.

  • ||

    They need a snazzier name than The Great Reset. I don't know, something like The Great Leap Forward?

  • ||

    You have to put it contemporary terms.

    It's The Great App Forward.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    "The Great Lean-Forward"

  • 0x90||

    "The Great Lean-to"

  • Ice Nine||

    Hmm, I think maybe that Time writer wrote the Loughner sentence too.

  • ||

    I bet that was written by all the vets.

  • Montani Semper Liberi||

    Wow, that is some scary shit. I hate to Godwin, but you know who else wanted to impose universal morality?

  • ||

    It is a not a Godwin when the person in question really is a fascist.

  • Elder Scrolls Enthusiast AuH20||

    Stalin?

  • Rich||

    Impose universal morality

    What does that even mean? Off 'em?

  • ||

    It means that their commitment to teachers is so great that they'll keep re-educating you until you get it.

  • Barely Suppressed Rage||

    By the way, it is a Wiki, so feel free to sign up and make suggestions as to what the document should contain. I'm hoping a whole mess of conservatives and libertarians do so. Be as helpful as you can in furthering the goals of the collective.

  • Montani Semper Liberi||

    I think someone already got to the employee rights section:

    What about making it easier to start small businesses by cutting back on regulatory red tape and other hurdles? By making it difficult for entrepreneurs to bring products and ideas to the marketplace, current legislation is heavily weighted toward providing the continuation and expansion of large corporations at the expense of small businesses. There are three sections addressing workers rights but none supporting the proliferation of FREE enterprises, which should also be a choice available to any who would pursue it.

    Which commentator wrote this? I wonder how long it will be allowed to stay up.

  • AuH20||

    I think you should pose as someone who is genuinely concerned and just push it so every document looks like it's written by a total whackjob.

  • Tony||

    Right-wing Republicans?

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Missed the full answer by exactly half, Tony.

  • mr simple||

    Why hate Godwin? He just observed the law, he didn't create it.

  • ||

    Utopia. By any means necessary, favoring the means that involve massive body counts.

  • ||

    Republicans?

  • RoboCain||

    How is warmed-over Marxism "a Revolution in Ideas"?

  • ||

    I won't bother with reading the whole thing. But I bet there isn't one idea on that entire site that was created in the last hundred years. Real cutting edge and revolutionary.

  • 03||

    not hundreds, try thousands of years !

    WWJD ?

  • AuH20||

    Seriously, I respect your service to the country, but you really should get the VA to look at that head wound for you.

  • 03||

    i ll pray the wound away

  • I Heart Capitalisms||

    "measure success based on drive/cooperation/interactions with others, not only final outcome"

    So they want to make school more like politics?

  • Ray||

    Remove children from households who refuse the educate them properly.

    Just let that sink in. These people never seem to grasp the true consequences of such action. They are they same folks who think 'ignorant' people shouldn't vote, never ever thinking that they themselves might one day end up in the 'ignorant' category or having the beurocrat decide they aren't educating their children properly.

  • AuH20||

    Yeah, Stalin is the best comparison here.

  • Fluffy||

    I would happily and without remorse slaughter every last one of these motherfuckers and drink their fucking blood and wear their fucking skulls as hats if any one of them showed up at my house to tell me I wasn't properly educating my kid in their idea of character education.

  • I Heart Capitalisms||

    "Socialize undergraduate level college. Make failing impossible to assure that everyone has the same chance in the work place post-college."

    Spoof Occutard or real Occutard?

  • Brett L||

    What the fuck, exactly, do these people know about character building that they could teach it? Character building is getting up and going to your shitty job because you value putting food on the table and sleeping under a roof more than having a couple more beers or sleeping a few extra hours. It is NOT cherry picking ed school classes offered after 11am and going to work 175 days a year.

  • Elder Scrolls Enthusiast AuH20||

    I'm at the bargaining of grief, right not. So, NBC, c'mon... give me one final, 17 episode season of Community. That will let it wrap up appropriately and let it hit syndication.

    I'm not asking for #sixseasonsandamovie or even #twelveseasonsandathemepark and most certainly not #18seasonsandasmalltown. Just one more season.

    And, besides NBC... do you really want to be the network that renewed Whitney? Or made Are You There Chelsea? (which was originally called Are you There Vodka? It's Me, Chelsea but I guess you can't say vodka on TV?) NBC, you built a successful network on quality programming like Cheers and Hill Street Blues. Don't go all Full House on us now.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    Pop! Pop!

  • Elder Scrolls Enthusiast AuH20||

    The fact that you even call it that tells me you aren't ready.

  • ||

    We are laughing at you.

  • ||

    Crappyish acting aside, Community is the best non-animated sitcom on TV. They'd better bring it back or sell it to someone else who will.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    I couldn't get through one episode. It was like watching an aspie convention.

  • Elder Scrolls Enthusiast AuH20||

    This comment is the best:

    Dear Miz Politidyke:
    Brute’s got a point. Democracy must apply to all or it means nothing. And this is exactly why I do not vote. The US Constitution wasn’t written for or by women. In fact, not even mentioned until less than a century ago when reaching human status and allowed to vote. Yet this was well after lands had been dispersed, treaties signed and broken, WWII in the making, and governmental and legal professions all secured by the good-old-boys. I will not bear responsibility by sanctioning through participation, the murderous and torturous fasism that founded this nation. If you think for one second that after 2,000 years, imperialism can politically be forced into adhering to any charter of Human Rights, you’ve been duped. It’s only through boycott and rebellion that any real social equality has ever been achieved. So I suggest that everyone stops voting. Then, with the halls of injustice coming to a screaming halt, the true face of imperialism will raise its ugly head and we will know who the enemy is.
    Shalom

    I love the historical fuckery. Yes, people in 1920, when women got the vote, knew that they would be at war with Germany in just 22 years. And "imperialism" has been going on for 2,000 years (Damn those Romans and Moors!). I mean, just Jesus Tapdancing Christ.

  • ||

    I am still suffering from the God damned Normans taking my ancestors' lands in England.

  • Beloved Rev. Blue Moon ||

    You would be English.

    The Norman invasion baffles me - how is it that food across the channel can vary so widely in taste and quality, given a common ancestor?

  • AuH20||

    I think it's the different climates. England is cold, wet, and shitty. In that climate, you want stick to your ribs kind of food like Bangers and Mash or Shepherd's Pie.

    You also have to remember that a lot of Great Britain never really took to the Normans, culturally at least. I mean, the Welsh are still the Welsh ie they have sex with sheep.

  • Britt||

    Any culture that considers sausage, mashed potatoes, and gravy to be a meal is one I'm proud to know.

  • ||

    Don't forget, those are French-speaking Vikings we're talking about.

  • Maxxx||

    I am still suffering from the God damned Normans taking my ancestors' lands in England.

    Fucking Macedonians stole my land.

  • Zeb||

    Well the Persians and the Chinese had pretty good empires going 2000+ years ago. But she seems to think that "imperialism" is an independently existing entity of some sort.

  • ||

    See Sargon, the Great which was about 5,000 years ago.

  • RoboCain||

    Liberals only count white people.

  • AuH20||

    Well, white people did it best, and that is unfair. I mean, way to be successful, dick.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    That comment is probably the best argument I've seen for never giving women the vote.

    Also, it's hilarious that she apparently believes the history of western civilization begins with the Romans. I guess she's still broken up about the Diaspora.

  • WTF||

    That comment is probably the best argument I've seen for never giving women the vote.

    And followed by women getting the vote in 1920, the explosive expansion of the nanny state. Thanx wymyns!

  • Rich||

    Jobless rate drops from 9 percent to 8.6 percent; Reuters take: "Further evidence the economic recovery was gaining momentum."

    The chocolate ration is being increased, too.

  • ||

    Impose universal morality for parents who do not participate in raising their children. Remove children from households with parents who refuse to educate them properly.

    Ja Wohl.

    And can we bang the prettiest blonde girls once they have been incorporated as the assets of the State? For the good of, umm, Society.

  • MNG||

    The sort of offenses that might land a student in the principal's office in other states often send kids in Texas to court with misdemeanor charges. Some schools have started rethinking the way they punish students for bad behavior after watching many of them drop out or land in prison because of tough disciplinary policies.

    This summer, an exhaustive study by the Council of State Governments found that by 12th grade, more than half of all 14- to 15-year-olds in Texas are ticketed, expelled or suspended at least once. After they're ticketed, sent to court and fined hundreds of dollars, students aren't always allowed to go back to their home school. Instead, they're sent to an alternative school, a holding pen of sorts where kids are supposed to "learn their lesson."

    http://www.npr.org/2011/11/30/.....t-of-court

    And Texas is dominated by "small, less intrusive government" conservative GOPers...Sheesh.

  • ||

    All is relative. It is not like the Texas education system is more prone to do that than most other states. Read any blog about zero tolerance and you can see this is a national problem.

    The problem goes back to taking discretion away from administrators. If administrators are not free to do justice and punish kids according to the person and the crime, they can't let kids off when appropriate. So instead, they just call the cops and wash their hands of it.

  • MNG||

    "It is not like the Texas education system is more prone to do that than most other states."

    Other states have half their school age kids either with misdemeanors or expulsions? I doubt that.

  • ||

    John, why in the world do we want to give more "discretion" to administrators? Why further empower state actors?

    Zero tolerance is big government / nanny state nonsense. MNG is right to point out the inherent logical fallacy of those who claim to be small government supporting zero tolerance policies.

  • MNG||

    When you have half of your school kids ticketed by cops for school grounds shenanigans then you can't pass the laugh test when you tout "smaller, less intrusive" government.

    This is what a GOP dominated state looks like. Or Alabama with its recent immigration "more power to teh cops" law. It's all a show and talk.

  • AuH20||

    MNG, the states are bad advertisements for their party. I mean... do you want NY or CA to be ads for the Democrats? And TX and AL are bad for the Republicans.

  • MNG||

    I actually like what NY is doing under Cuomo, so I'd actually take that bet...

  • MNG||

    I think you can learn a lot about the parties from the states where that party dominates and has for a while. Alabama and Texas for the GOP for example, hardly bastions of liberty. That's where the GOP primary is what matters, so you get pure conservatism, and you see what you get.

    It works the other way, sure. I live in MD now and I actually worked for the last GOP gubernatorial candidate because the one-party Dem domination here has led to so many follies it's hard for someone from a competitive state to imagine...

  • Fluffy||

    Doesn't the Texas Constitution mandate that the state offer free public education?

    That's your problem right there.

    The education of children requires arbitrary authority. But arbitrary authority is what our public school administrators can't really have, if we're going to run the schools in accordance with the federal constitution and with the laws of most states.

    So we have placed the public schools in the position of being forced to attempt to offer a service that they can't really effectively offer to the standards we'd like.

    A private school can impose a private disciplinary system, and if they've gotten everyone to sign the right disclaimers no one can say shit about it. A public school can't. To me the obvious answer to this quandary is to privatize all education. But the states with public education written into their constitutions can't DO that. And so we get insanity like trying to farm out minor school discipline to the cops.

  • Brett L||

    That's John's point. Zero tolerance == zero responsibility, therefore, administrators don't have to be personally responsible to parents at the PTA or school board meetings about this sort of shit. They can just point to zero-tolerance state laws and say "my hands are tied".

  • CrackertyAssCracker||

    I agree minge, end socialized education!

  • SFC B||

    ...found that by 12th grade, more than half of all 14- to 15-year-olds in Texas...

    Did they mistype a grade or an age in there? 14-15 is 9th or 10th grade. HS Seniors are 17 and 18.

  • MNG||

    Herman Cain says wife did not know of payments to alleged mistress

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....ml?hpid=z3

    The Cain Campaign continues to crash and burn, our Rev. Moon silently weeps...

  • ||

    If he wanted to have mistress and be subject to no moral standards whatsoever, he should have ran as a Democrat. He could have had a pimp living in his basement, banged interns half his age and lied about it, and had his wife growing pot in the back yard and it wouldn't have mattered.

  • Zeb||

    I think you can really only get away with that in the House.

    But what do I know. None of those things sounds like a big deal to me.

  • MNG||

    "But what do I know. None of those things sounds like a big deal to me."

    They're big deals for conservatives.

    Live by the sword...

  • Tony||

    I think it's wrong to judge political leaders too harshly on their personal lives. We'd lack several great historical leaders if they had to follow today's Puritanical mores. Plus monogamous marriage is probably unnatural.

    The problem with Cain isn't the consensual affair, but all the non-consensual harassment.

  • 03||

    puritan mores?...like grave-robbing then murdering the natives who taught them survival ?

  • RoboCain||

    The Bialek story makes no sense, "This guy attacked me so I asked him to take me back my hotel".

  • Beloved Rev. Blue Moon ||

    Woah! Tony from outta left field with a reasonable comment. I'll be damned.

  • MNG||

    Hell, if you'd get your head out of your partisan ass, to use your phrase (ad hominens indeed, physician heal thyself!), you might remember that I defended Cain against the harrassment charges...

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Except there's no solid proof of "all the non-consensual harassment".

  • Shorter FIFY||

    Even the gop accusers are wrong !

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Where's the proof?

  • cynical||

    "Plus monogamous marriage is probably unnatural."

    I thought you were all about egalitarianism? Monogamy was the sexual 99%'s answer to the sexual 1% (of males, obv).

  • ||

    Plus monogamous marriage is probably unnatural.

    Then don't partake in it if you want to fool around.

    Don't get married, get caught fooling around, and THEN claim "marriage is unnatural".

  • MNG||

    "banged interns half his age and lied about it, and had his wife growing pot in the back yard and it wouldn't have mattered"

    Wow, you're conservative slip really showing here...

  • Beloved Rev. Blue Moon ||

    I see MNG is still successfully trolling here. Has his desperation for attention led to any fun ad-hominems yet?

  • MNG||

    Your tears, so yummy!

  • MNG||

    I love the irony too, accusing me of ad hominens in a post that contains two of your own.

    Al Franken was right about conservatives and irony...

  • ||

    Under what other names has the good Rev. posted?

    What happened to your old sparring mate, The Angry Optimist?

  • MNG||

    Aren't TAO, Beloved and BSR the same person LM? I always figured so. The same better than average argumentation but the same backslide into knee-jerk conservatism on many traditional issues.

  • ||

    Whither truth-in-handle-posting?

  • Barely Suppressed Rage||

    Aren't TAO, Beloved and BSR the same person LM? I always figured so. The same better than average argumentation but the same backslide into knee-jerk conservatism on many traditional issues.

    Whoa, where the fuck did this come from? Don't drag me into your fevered hallucinations.

    For the record, I post only under this screen name, or occasionally, a joke name, for a joke.

    I don't have time to sock-puppet. So the answer to your question is an emphatic NO.

    And true to form, your ability to perceive and comprehend evidently is fatally impaired, because I'm certainly not a knee-jerk conservative.

    Yeah, I hateses me some lefties, progressives and liberals, but that does not therefore automatically make me a "knee-jerk conservative." Because I'm just as disgusted by a lot of the so-called conservatives.

  • Brett L||

    Whatever happened to the old live boy/dead girl in the bed standard? We could update it for the 21st century and make it dead sex partner in the bed.

  • MNG||

    Barney Frank did away with the old live boy part...

  • Brett L||

    That's what I'm saying. I'm cool with going with a gender/sexual preference neutral standard of dead or unwilling or underage sex partner as the threshold for scandal.

  • MNG||

    Like I said, we don't care, but then we are probably not the GOP base. Cain talked a lot about Jesus, religion and personal morality for that reason. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

  • Brett L||

    Dear Mr. Cain:

    When Jesus said, "love thy neighbor as you love thyself" I don't think this is what he had in mind.

    Sincerely,
    American Conservative Christians

    (I'm in total agreement with you MNG.)

  • MNG||

    I have to wonder, Cain rose to prominence in part I think because he was willing to talk about substantial change, i.e., substantial change of our tax system. Was his candidacy a good thing for putting that forward in the discussion, or will that be tarnished via association with yet another sex-obsessed minister?

  • 03||

    cain is the gop's token black. if he was white, he'd never have been on stage.

  • MNG||

    Well, he did have a pretty substantial proposal he touted. Did it help that he was black and could be used to deflect racism charges? Sure. But I'm betting his rise had more to do with his 9-9-9 plan and his plain speaking style.

  • I Heart Capitalisms||

    And how well would a white Obama have done?

  • MNG||

    Ask John Edwards.

  • I Heart Capitalisms||

    He'd have been a VP/sidekick?

  • cynical||

    Edwards always came across as sleazy, though. Obama at worst comes across as arrogant and out-of-touch.

  • Barely Suppressed Rage||

    cain is the gop's token black. if he was white, he'd never have been on stage.

    Well that's a pretty fucking racist thing to say, you fucking racist.

  • 03||

    nigga pleeze

  • o3||

    oh ur right. i meant uncle tom. thx

  • ||

    If Paul becomes President, can't he just issue an executive order commanding the indefinite incarceration of all Congressmen he doesn't like?

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    Like love, the United States is a battlefield.

  • ||

    you know who else wanted to impose universal morality?

    Theodore Rooooooooooosevelt?

    Woodrow Wilson?

  • ||

    But the Limetree education system teaches that Wilson was the great American president that helped rebuild Europe and made the nasty isolationist Republithugs go away!

  • Suki||

    Some info here.

  • Elder Scrolls Enthusiast AuH20||

    This woman... is not very smart.

    Key passage:

    AS: What, in your opinion, is the greatest challenge facing feminism today?

    JF: The flow of money into corporate media is one of the biggest challenges facing feminism. A large reason why that free flow of political corporate money is such a huge structural challenge to feminism is that it allows the media to become even more biased and owned by people who don’t have women’s best interests at heart. The corporate media, and sometimes independent media, as it exists today so often defines feminism for us in a way that makes it hard for anyone to want to identify with it. They’re almost always wildly distorting the truth. It also keeps us separate from each other, pits us against each other and it doesn’t tell our stories. There are so many great feminists doing amazing work everywhere I go, but almost everyone I meet feels like they’re alone trying to push the boulder up the hill themselves. If we were able to find each other and work together we could keep the boulder up the hill.

    Why are corporations inherently antiwoman? I mean, women are their customers, and women work for corporations, so why would corporations go out of their way to shit on women?

    Is there money less good or something?

  • RoboCain||

    She's also ugly.

  • ||

    That's not even one of the entertaining ultra-feminists -- THIS one's just a fucktarded reverse-sexist. Like the way the Dalish elves are reverse-racist, and can fuck off.

    Imagine how red with rage she grows when you say "penis" aloud.

  • Elven Apologist AuH20||

    The Elves have a reason to be racist! The humans rape our women and make us live in ghettos.

    We are the Jews of Dragon Age.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    We are the Jews of Dragon Age.

    I'd be surprised if the developers didn't have this very thing in mind when they made the game.

    The Chantry is such a blatant proxy for the medieval Catholic Church that they didn't even bother trying to symbolize it with the typically clumsy nerd caricatures.

  • Devil's Advocate||

    Like the way the Dalish elves are reverse-racist, and can fuck off.

    Just as an oppressed people can't be racist, women it is not possible for women be sexist.

    /sarc

  • Devil's Advocate||

    GDI, can't edit posts.

    It is not possible for women to be sexist.

  • AuH20||

    You joke, but there is actually a belief that only those with "privilege" can be sexist/racist/bigoted/whatever.

  • ||

    Yeah, I had a college professor seriously get into a heated argument with me in class when I claimed non-whites can be racist too.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    Profs don't think non-whites are rational humans who make choices based on physical perceptions and self-interest--that's why they don't believe non-whites can be racist.

    That's why they chimp out over any perceived racism by whites, but equivalent ethnic chauvinism from non-whites doesn't even register with them. It's basically lazy SWPL paternalism.

  • ||

    She has a new book out titled “What You Really Really Want: The Smart Girl’s Shame-Free Guide to Sex and Safety” and it’s amazing. The book is a guide to helping you decipher what it is you truly desire, parsed out from social conditioning.

    False consciousness rears it's ugly head yet again.

  • AuH20||

    It comes with a false consciousness quiz. Shall I link you to it?

  • ||

    I'm taking it right now!

  • ||

    Apparently, the book is for me.

    •If you wished any of your answers could be different than they are, this book is for you.
    •If you exaggerated any of your answers in order to seem more sexually liberated/empowered/accomplished than you are, or for any other reason, this book is for you.
    •If fear (possibly very valid fear) influenced any of your answers, this book is for you.
    •If any of your answers reflected embarrassment or shame about sexual expression, this book is for you.
    •Let’s be honest. If you’ve read this far? This book is very likely for you.
  • AuH20||

    If I said I had a dick to rival John Holmes, is this book for me?

  • T||

    You have to admit, false consciousness is genius in a sick, amoral, power-hungry, manipulative way.

  • ||

    Oh, no... I freely admit it's genius. (Even if they didn't come up with it and would completely deny that religions thought it up eons ago.)

  • Zeb||

    OK, then.

    Feministing and Jezebel do a far better job making feminism seem like a joke than anything the corporate media could ever do.

  • Devil's Advocate||

    Haha yes. I was thinking of that as I read the article, and chuckling to myself at the unintentional irony of it all.

  • AuH20||

    I think the problem is that Leftist Feminism exists in such a fucking bubble that they don't see how ridiculous it is. If someone disagrees with them, they must either not understand feminist theory (Look it up, Dudebro!) or be so brainwashed/benefiting from patriarchal, kyriarchal (which includes shit like class and actually liking the gender you were born with) that they clearly just can not see the light and truth of Leftist Feminist ideas.

    The fact that a lot of their theory is influence by Marxism, which any Poly Sci major could tell you is a goddamn childish ideology, and that makes them irrelevant, is lot on them.

  • 03||

    why do libtoidz obsess over feminists ?

  • ||

    If someone pried the "Z" off this retard's keyboard, he'd probably never post here again.

  • RoboCain||

    LOLZ

  • o3||

    sorry i struck a chord

  • Devil's Advocate||

    Why do you obsess over libtoidz' obsessionz?

  • ||

    "why do libtoidz obsess over feminists ?"

    It's not a libertarian thing specifically.

    There are lots of libertarian feminists.

    Then there are a lot of guus who've drifted libertarian lately because there's a vile Progressive in the White House.

    As soon as they get another Republican idiot like Bush in the White House to cheer for again? Many of them will go back to damning libertarians as traitors and terrorists sympathizers, etc.

    Don't get me wrong--there are plenty of feminists who advocate shit that's extremely hostile to libertarianism. But libertarians don't generally oppose them becasue they're feminists...

    We oppose them because they're advocating shit that's extremely hostile to libertarianism.

  • RoboCain||

    You can do both.

    And even though I know who you are talking about "libertarian feminists" is an oxymoron.

  • ||

    "And even though I know who you are talking about "libertarian feminists" is an oxymoron."

    Not according to libertarian feminists, it isn't.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=libertarian+feminist

  • AuH20||

    I think that the problem is that in the 70s and 80s Feminism migrated from the streets to the academy, and in the academy in got infused with a bunch of Marxist bullshit, as well as acquiring a bunch of young, impressionable followers.

    Also, the demand for money made feminist organizations willing to trot out whatever statistic they have that will make people go, "Oh shit! This is a serious problem, and I must give money now."

    I mean, in a lot of ways, if shit improves for women, then the funding for places like NOW dries up. They have a vested interest in keeping the Patriarchy going.

  • ||

    Like a rape takes place every nano-second.

  • Devil's Advocate||

    I am a middle-aged woman, and while I have always considered myself to be a feminist, I have nothing in common with the ilk of Jezebel and Feministing. I grew up in a society in which women were routinely paid less than men for the same work, and also in which women were denied jobs because of their gender. I have and had zero problem addressing that sort of issue, and that is what feminism originally set out to do: to level the playing field so that women were not treated in an egregious manner. I have experienced all of this first hand, during the fullness of my youth.

    I think matters have improved dramatically since then, to the point where young women who aspire to be feminists really have nothing to complain about, so they invent shit, such as the patriarchy keeping them down, and the kyriarchy asserting itself to shape their self-image. It's bullshit, and a bullshit excuse for not taking their destiny into their own hands. If it is the patriarchy or the kyriarchy, problems in some woman's life are always someone else's fault.

    I also take especial umbrage at the notion that to champion equal right for women, one must tear down men, rather than raising up women. Fuck you, ladies. Fuck you very much.

  • ||

    "I think that the problem is that in the 70s and 80s Feminism migrated from the streets to the academy, and in the academy in got infused with a bunch of Marxist bullshit, as well as acquiring a bunch of young, impressionable followers."

    I think you're talking about one strain of feminism. It was the dominant strain, no doubt. ...and it was a strain dominated by Marxism, class struggle, etc.

    But, again, libertarians shouldn't criticize Marxist-feminists for being feminists. They should criticize those Marxist-feminists for being Marxists.

    The fact is that we libertarians have some great examples of libertarian feminism--some who've been right here at Hit & Run.

    But listen to me explain it? Why not listen to Kerry Howley?

    http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/12979

    More Kerry Howley is always better.

    Anyway, libertarianism and its message has a lot to offer feminism. And if more feminists embraced libertarianism and libertarian solutions to women's problems, that would be a good thing for both women and libertarians.

    So, a lot of guys are obsessed with women's issues--because we're preoccupied with women. But it would be unfortunate if women thought there was something about libertarianism that made it hostile to feminism.

    It just isn't so.

  • AuH20||

    Ken, I think that the problem is that many of the people who claim to represent "feminism" are also very liberal people who are big into playing "feminist" gatekeeper.

    Are you pro life? Sorry, you can't be a feminist.

    Even if you are pro-legalized abortion, are you for state funding of abortion or abortion providers? Sorry, without that funding, poor women can't get abortions, and thus the right is meaningless (please do not apply this standard to guns). You are not a feminist.

    These gatekeepers tend to be the same people who claim that Cathy Young isn't a REAL feminist.

    I think that these people also use the true definition of feminism ("the belief in the social, political, and economic equality of women) and then springboard onto "and here is how this equality is achieved, and these are the solutions".

    I think that somehow, you have to save feminism from these people, but I don't know how. Especially when the first couple of google pages of results for "feminism blog" are things like Jezebel and Feministe.

  • Devil's Advocate||

    Feminism is supposed to be about the right to choose. Except if you don't make the right choice (e.g. if you have that baby instead of having an abortion; or forgo the career to stay home and raise your kids; derive enjoyment from running a household; or believe that men have an intrinsic value as men with their own psychology and ways of thinking and doing things, and not as deformed with external plumbing issues-- then you are somehow a traitor to your gender.

    It's enough to piss you off.

  • ||

    "Feminism is supposed to be about the right to choose. Except if you don't make the right choice."

    Yeah, I think that's a pretty common critique of the feminist movement--from a libertarian feminist perspective.

    I think I've heard variations on that theme from Postrel, Howley, Young...

  • ||

    I think of Virginia Postrel, Kerry Howley and Cathy Young as feminists.

    I think we've had some regulars here in the Hit & Run commentariat who are likewise feminists.

    I can't think of any of them who were pro-life, but I'm not sure being pro-life is a necessary requirement for being libertarian.

  • Devil's Advocate||

    I can't think of any of them who were pro-life, but I'm not sure being pro-life is a necessary requirement for being libertarian.

    No, but the belief that that choice is one's own to make is.

  • AuH20||

    I was just using pro-life as an example of something that became a feminism litmus test but that never should have.

  • cynical||

    "'I think we've had some regulars here in the Hit & Run commentariat who are likewise feminists."

    Whomever could you mean, you c... razy guy?

  • ||

    I don't know if Jennifer would call herself a feminist, but she looks like a libertarian-feminist to me.

    I thought of smacky and Linguist as libertarian-feminists that way, too.

    This didn't used to be such a sausage fest. And if a little effort to make the place seem a little less hostile to females generated a little more female participation around here?

    That wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

  • Jeffrey||

    I like to laugh at feminists because they are so damn close to libertarians.

    Many of their ideas about consent and self ownership fall right in line with our own, but then they are so obsessed with socio-economic outcomes, that they will shamelessly throw their princinples to the wayside.

  • Devil's Advocate||

    Many of their ideas about consent and self ownership fall right in line with our own, but then they are so obsessed with socio-economic outcomes, that they will shamelessly throw their princinples to the wayside.

    Yes, and this is why I have a great deal of contempt for the Jezeballians, Feminstins, and their love of the OWS movement. "Don't report those rapes and attacks! Sequester yourselves in a tent with other women! Don't make waves! Censor yourselves so you don;t say anything critical! You'll sully the image of the OWS movement if it is perceived as unfriendly to women!" Which ironically had the effect of making the OWS... unfriendly to women.

  • ||

    libtoidz have a bad reaction to Movement Feminism because it is, at bottom, a collectivist ideology. And we hate those.

  • ||

    libtoidz have a bad reaction to Movement Feminism because it is, at bottom, a collectivist ideology. And we hate those.

  • Fluffy||

    I think that it's really insidious to libertarians because even when it's not being directly collectivist and is spending some time dealing with the relationship between individuals, it asserts a whole lot of specious "individual" rights that are anathema to libertarianism.

    Because if you hadn't noticed, a whole lot of modern feminism boils down to "I am not free if you're free to think I'm not pretty," which is not a collectivist premise per se, but a pretty radical invention of a new individual right out of whole cloth.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    Because if you hadn't noticed, a whole lot of modern feminism boils down to "I am not free if you're free to think I'm not pretty," which is not a collectivist premise per se, but a pretty radical invention of a new individual right out of whole cloth.

    This is in line with Steve Sailer's theory that modern feminism was largely shaped and influenced by ugly women who wanted society to consider them attractive. It's probably why relativism is so central to the most vocal of feminist leaders.

  • Professoriate||

    The fact that a lot of their theory is influence by Marxism, which any Poly Sci major could tell you is a goddamn childish ideology,

    NO, no, no.

    Marxism is the foundation of all modern ideology.

  • 03||

    radio "educated" conservatives dont know marxism which calls for employee ownership & reduced govt

  • T||

    Great. Go find some conservatives and tell them that.

  • o3||

    plenty right here

  • 03||

    derp de derpity derp

  • Fluffy||

    ^This.

    The nontraditional internet media have done much more damage to feminism than corporate mass media have.

    The craziest feminist can go on a talk show and at least not have people laugh in her face.

    On the internet little every peep out of the feminist cohort gets MST3000'd within seconds of it being put up.

    Academic feminism only got as far as it did because in a professional context there is no idea stupid enough that it will receive open mockery and high-fiving in a boardroom or classroom. On the internet, that facade of courtesy is stripped away, and the true enemy of feminism - laughter - is unleashed in all its power and glory.

  • ||

    The other true enemy of gender , as opposed to equity feminism, is DATA and science.

  • ||

    “What You Really Really Want: The Smart Girl’s Shame-Free Guide to Sex and Safety”

    Why do I assume they "really want" another woman, and not a man?

  • ||

    Dear Miz Politidyke:

    I was not previously aware of the existence of Hillary's advice column.

  • AuH20||

    Nice.

  • ||

    A European proposal to channel central bank loans through the International Monetary Fund

    What this means is that the IMF will buy the loans, and then (maybe) resell them.

    The IMF is largely funded by the US. So this is the US taxpayer bailing out Europe.

    And it would be a bailout. The only reason the IMF would buy them is because they can't clear an auction at the offered rates. So the IMF will either keep them (a bailout) or resell them at a discount (a smaller bailout).

  • ||

    You must be confused.

    There's nothing not to like about free money.

    Free money. The solution was there all along!

    It's just that the Koch Brothers didn't want us to see it.

  • Fluffy||

    Basically this is an end-run around the ECB's refusal to monetize the debt of zombie Eurozone nations.

    I betcha someday the Fed ends up owning this shit. So that dollar holders can monetize euro debt instead of just dollar debt.

  • cynical||

    If they had any fucking balls, they would make a Euro bailout conditional on Europe accepting the Fed as its monetary authority and making the dollar the official currency of Europe. It would be terrible, of course, but I think if they aren't in a position to make those sorts of demands now, they will be soon.

  • ||

    Nah. Just make them take GM, Chrysler, and Michael Moore off our hands.

  • Brett L||

    "I don't practice Santeria"

    "Two North Miami Beach employees — one a police officer, the other a department office manager — are in hot water after trying to enlist some supernatural aid in the form of what they believed to be a Santeria practice.

    Their alleged target: City Manager Lyndon Bonner, whose plan to slash the police budget prompted protests and union outrage this fall."

  • cynical||

    Santeria is a major religion in Cuba. Why exactly is it worse than saying a prayer? I mean, aside from the littering aspect.

  • ||

    I think you can learn a lot about the parties from the states where that party dominates and has for a while.

    Extrapolation is good, except when it isn't.

  • ||

    These guys are making a whole lot of sense dude.

    www.VPN-Shield.tk

  • Custom Nike Dunk||

    thanks

GET REASON MAGAZINE

Get Reason's print or digital edition before it’s posted online

  • Progressive Puritans: From e-cigs to sex classifieds, the once transgressive left wants to criminalize fun.
  • Port Authoritarians: Chris Christie’s Bridgegate scandal
  • The Menace of Secret Government: Obama’s proposed intelligence reforms don’t safeguard civil liberties

SUBSCRIBE

advertisement