The Selling of Zuccotti Park

The most shocking thing I saw at Zuccotti Park during my weekend visit was that it is teeming with very thing that protesters hate: markets and commerce. All around the tiny tent city, vendors have sprung up, like mushrooms in warm compost, selling all kinds of Occupy Wall Street paraphernalia— buttons, pins, souvenirs. (Incidentally, there were more tourists than protesters at the park.) I actually witnessed greenbacks changing hands several times:

As if this is not bad enough, all of this was going on right next to a stall inviting people to return to the golden age of bartering, because, you know, an economy where people live hand-to-mouth and die in their 40s is so much more sustainable than the alternatives. Converting your surplus product into money to buy what you want when you want to free yourself from death, disease and hunger is just so goddamned bourgeois and selfish.

But I suspect the capitalist economy will survive longer than the movement. Indeed, nothing coopts a movement faser than entrepreneurs commodifying it to turn a quick buck (especially when they dress like the nice lady below rather than wearing their traditional horns and hoofs). With Zuccotti Park pins already selling like hot cakes, can Zuccotti Park camping equipment, Occupy Wall Street jumpers, McDonald’s Zuccotti Park Hobo Special, Chef Boyardee Zuccotti Manacotti be far behind?

It's over folks.

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  • RoboCain||

    I'm still surprised they are allowing tents, which is against the law.

  • Rhywun||

    It's a (semi?) private space - maybe the bankers who own it don't mind. For now.

  • RoboCain||

    True, the city doesn't own the actual property. And I haven't looked up the law, and what it might exempt. But the sign there reads no tents allowed.

  • Suki||

    Then they are trespassing with Bloomberg being the fly in the enforcement ointment.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    I'd be a lot more worried about it turning into a typhoid vector at some point.

  • Old Salt||

    I'm sure the herpes vector is already in full swing!

  • teh rael o2||

    breath slowly & take ur malox old salt.

  • Old Salt||

    LITHIUM is what I take when the gunmetal in my blood angers up!

  • Suki||

    Why is it against the law? They are on private property.

  • CRACKER REDMAN ALERT!||

    HONKEY INJUN SLIPPED IN BELOW!

  • Suki||

    OT: "Rock Center" is doing a show on North Carolina's eugenic slaughter in the name of saving the State money. Featured is a Black woman who was sterilized in the name of government cost savings and "improving the gene pool." IIRC, NC was not run by Libertarians nor by Republicans then.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    As if this is not bad enough, all of this was going on right next to a stall inviting people to return to the golden age of bartering, because, you know, an economy where people live hand-to-mouth and die in their 40s is so much more sustainable than the alternatives.

    I wouldn't be cavalier about barter. People trading real goods for each other is a lot more "sustainable" than our current fiat money system.

  • Amakudari||

    The problem with fiat money isn't the "money" part, though.

    OWS needs to issue scrip, clearly.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    I'd be surprised if they didn't. local currency has hipster cool.

  • Cowboy||

    Time to set up a flax/hemp scrip exchange!

    Hagbard would be proud

  • sevo||

    "People trading real goods for each other is a lot more "sustainable" than our current fiat money system."

    Trade you half a cow for that set of baskets. Got a knife? I'll have to make change.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Trade you half a cow for that set of baskets. Got a knife? I'll have to make change.

    That's actually not far from how it works in rural settings. What you call "making change" is just butchering. My wife is currently raising a few rabbits in trade for a few cuts of meat when our friends send their pig to be slaughtered.

  • dunphoid||

    Hey now!

  • sevo||

    "That's actually not far from how it works in rural settings"
    I know, and that's the reason Croceus (and others) got rich. Friction costs.

  • Mr. FIFY||

    Don't fall into the same trap these people did, HM:

    http://ccheadliner.com/news/do.....002e0.html

    Stupid fucking USDA.

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    Heh. We only keep 5, but still...fuck the USDA.

  • Colonel_Angus||

    What if there is a gap between the availability of the rabbits and the hog- will you then trade futures?

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    I guess we could, but as we only have a small-scale "hobby farm," I wouldn't get that serious about it. I have nothing against currency, just fiat money as opposed to commodity money.

  • Suki||

    Didn't one of those reason cartoonist do a big long cartoon about lefties doing exactly this in ancient demonstrations?

  • Beloved Rev. Blue Moon||

    People trading real goods for each other is a lot more "sustainable" than our current fiat money system.

    HA!

    *blinks*

    Wait, are you serious?

  • Heroic Mulatto||

    You believe in money backed by nothing more than the Government's promise?

  • ||

    Looks like he is serious. Dang.

  • ||

    I believe bartering avoids sales and income taxes as well.

  • sevo||

    "I believe bartering avoids sales and income taxes as well."
    Depending on the tax structure, the friction of barter may be cheaper than the taxes.

  • ||

    Which is probably why it is happening.

  • ||

    Which is probably why it is happening.

  • Apatheist||

    So does trading in cash... I mean who reports ALL of their tips or what kind of drug dealer/prostitute/etc pays their taxes. Has nothing to do with bartering.

  • Mohel||

    Hey now!

  • AlmightyJB||

    I'm sure the General Assembly is not going to let them evade extortion, I mean taxes.

  • Escape from Dayton||

    By IRS rule, bartering does not escape income tax

  • Coeus||

    Do you have to give them cash value, or can you mail them various raw chicken parts?

  • ||

    Yeah, but who's watching? How the hell is the IRS going to tell if you got your friends to build you a fence in exchange for working on their car?

  • robc||

    By IRS rule, me paying a house painter with cash doesnt allow him to escape income tax either.

    I have no idea what he did or did not claim on his taxes, but I got a cash discount, so what do you think?

  • ||

    Key point there. A lot of these lefty folks enjoying the barter economy have the advantage of not paying any taxes on the value they are getting. No sales taxes, no income taxes. It's more of a pure free market in that respect than formal employment where you have to pay FICA and UI and withhold income taxes and all that crap.

  • ||

    I worked at a newspaper that tried bartering for ad space. if we had an advertiser who had something we wanted, we'd set a trade up. In some ways it was cool: local brewery had beer, we traded them ad space in exchange. But, bartering doesn't pay the bills. How could we pay rent with beer bottles? Had to have some real paying advertisers to keep things going.

  • Colin||

    One of the great hotbeds of pure capitalism were the old Grateful Dead concerts, where just about anything was for sale.

    This could turn into the same thing.

  • Skr||

    That's why I never understood why the animosity towards money had so much traction in certain groups like burners. Even the hippies on Shakedown Street knew cash just made it that much easier to turn a veggie burrito into a hit of acid.

  • Skr||

    But then I guess they did call it "Shakedown street" lol

  • juris imprudent||

    It is part of the burner delusion that they are developing a better world/culture.

  • Old Salt||

    Not to point out the obvious but they do refer to marijuana as "dope" for a reason...

  • TechnoHippo||

    Because they make dope music?

  • Old Salt||

    Always warms my heart when I hear a question that answers itself!

  • teh rael o2||

    who's "they" ?

  • Old Salt||

    If you don't know who "they" are, then you're not part of "they"!

  • ||

    To be fair, there is a higher percentage of libertarians amoung Burners than there is in the general population.

    I'd put it at anywhere from 20-30% libertarian. Compared to around 10% nationally.
    And there's a fair nubmer of burners who think the "gift economy" is stupid bullshit.

  • Skr||

    I believe that. The radical self reliance angle always seemed pretty libertarian to me.

  • mad libertarian guy||

    The most shocking thing I saw at Zuccotti Park during my weekend visit was that it is teeming with very thing that protesters hate: markets and commerce.

    It goes to show that the people have no idea what they're protesting. They say they have issues with capitalism, yet practice it at every turn and to their benefit. Simply put, they're economic illiterates.

  • Suki||

    From the pix, it just means that the OWS bunch is too chicken to confront an old Black woman about selling buttons.

  • AlmightyJB||

    I wouldn't mess with her. She looks hungary.

  • AlmightyJB||

    She looks hungry too.

  • Old Salt||

    I wouldn't wanna challenge her either; a black woman having grown up in Hungary would be a seriously tough mother fucker!

  • newshutz||

    regular Hungarian women are scary enough.

  • Suki||

    The earlier version was funnier. It's the law.

  • Drave Robber||

    She indeed looks a bit Transylvania, which in turn used to be a part of Hungary some Δt ago.

  • Haunted Taint||

    Listen, I know it's easy and fun to write a blog post slagging the OWS people as completely anti-market, anti-trade loons, but most of them clearly aren't, and this gag is getting old regardless.

  • RoboCain||

  • ||

    That's one blog. Just one.

  • RoboCain||

    Google is your friend.

  • Apatheist||

    Citation Needed

    and I'm not exactly a fan of Dalmia's writing.

  • ||

    That was sorta the point of the article -- that they can't reconcile their high-minded rhetoric with their practices.

  • Old Salt||

    Like with bible-beating Republicans butt-fucking bagboys blind in airport bathrooms?

  • ||

    Um ... sure ... ?

  • Old Salt||

    Senator Larry Craig (R-ID) is the one I'm hinting at.

    'Course he's just the latest in a long line of closeted Republicans who didn't understand the meaning of double standard.

    Or that somebody might just recognize a fucking SENATOR when he's working the airport glory hole!

  • Apatheist||

    If your point is that there are social conservatives hypocrites too you're not going to find much disagreement here.

  • Old Salt||

    I knew that already, I just suddenly had the urge to talk about glory holes!

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    Which of these sentences is correct?

    What am I, made of bandwidth?

    What, am I made of bandwidth?

    What am I made of, bandwidth?

    Answer: It doesn't matter, because I'm not made of bandwidth, and yet those are all around 2MB pictures. Get your act together, woman.

    Occupy Wall Street hypocrisy is low hanging fruit. Hippies wouldn't last a month truly living the life they advocate.

  • Apatheist||

    The last one looks like a gypsy "entrepreneur," and I mean that as a compliment. If the OWS people really want to live off the grid that is who they should be looking to.

  • Suki||

    Hey crybaby, get a cable connection to go with the monocle.

  • IceTrey||

    But it's such a drag, literally, to have that 50 mile long cable hooked up to your smartphone.

  • ||

    Best laugh I've had all night. Thank you.

  • Ted S.||

    This is one of the reasons I visit reasom with only cached images set to display. (I can also see the alt-text without having to hover over the image.)

    The anti-social networking shit still makes the site as slow as molasses.

  • jtuf||

    I'm tempted to participate in their next bartering session, but I avoid engaging earning income on Shabat.

  • cw||

    Is Shikha the woman in the leopard skin?

  • rsi||

    No. She's the one in the rain coat.

  • rsi||

    Oh God. Just wait few years, this will be like Woodstock; every asshole and their brother will claim to have been there.

  • ||

    T-shirt idea: I Got Raped at Zuccotti Park .

  • anarch||

    I'll take one.

  • anarch||

    With a few extra sleeves, please.

  • AlmightyJB||

    KOCHTOPUS!!! woohoo

  • cynical||

    Strange, they left a few iconic cephalopod based propaganda pictures out.

  • Suki||

    They really need these

  • Zuccotti Park hipster anarch||

    What's "wash"?

  • Suki||

    ROFL!

  • Mr. FIFY||

    If I had a dime for every douchebag wearing Che t-shirts... I'd have a shitload of dimes.

  • Stef V||

    What's wrong with Che shirts? He was a freedom fighter.
    *swoon*

  • sevo||

    Stef V|11.7.11 @ 11:38PM|#
    "What's wrong with Che shirts? He was a freedom fighter.
    *swoon*"
    OK, I fell for it in the other thread; obvious spoof.

  • Old Salt||

    When I finally get to hell, I'm gonna go look that fucker up, so I can ask him if those t-shirts were an accident of capitalism or a particularly cruel divine punishment!

  • AlmightyJB||

    How about: I went to Zuccotti Park and all I got was Herpes.

  • RoboCain||

    Honestly, I've thought about stopping by for that reason...

  • Old Salt||

    For the Woodstock, the barter, or the rape?

  • AlmightyJB||

    Do I have to choose one? Damn!

  • Old El Paso Girl||

    Why can't we have both?

  • RoboCain||

    To be able to say I was there.

  • Apatheist||

    While I won't have been to the NY one, the Houston guys solved this for me by coming to my office building. Didn't even have to go visit.

  • Cowboy||

    How'd that go, anyway? Kinda surprised MM wasn't shot by some loony down here, honestly. Wonder if he flew in on a private jet...

  • Apatheist||

    He didn't show up. They tweeted out about 2 hours into their march around downtown that he would show up "when his schedule permits." Apparently he made an appearance afterwards back at their camp and then invited them to his book signing. Bunch of chumps.

    The whole thing was lame. Like 30 guys. At my building the police had blocked every entrance well ahead of time (got questioned going in). Then they just stood out side the doors shouting but we couldn't hear cuz they were sound proof. People came down to the lobby, took pictures on their phones, made a few jokes and went back to work. Apparently they did the same thing around town.

  • Cowboy||

    chumps indeed.

    So I guess between you, coeus, and myself that makes 3 Houston area reasonoids? I've heard they opened another Flying Saucer in Sugarland, any of yall check it out yet?

  • Gojira||

    Old Mexican is also in your neck of the woods, IIRC.

    Of course, only assholes live in the Houston area. Everyone who's cool lives in DFW.

  • Apatheist||

    barf

  • Coeus||

    I've heard they opened another Flying Saucer in Sugarland, any of yall check it out yet?

    A friend went the other day. Only beer at this one (which I know is the point of a beer garden, but I can only have one because two make the migraines set in) and there was no one there. But both of those things could change in the comming months, so I'll check it out myself in a few weeks.

  • The discombobulated Cowboy||

    Damn. They have good food, was at the san antonio one last weekend, its pretty nice. Friends and I are checking out sigarland one tomorrow night.

    Can't wait for delicious ayinger celebrator

  • Spoonman.||

    I live in Houston as well.

    I hate restaurants.

  • Big TexLaw||

    In Houston also. Flying Saucer sucks.

  • Gray Ghost||

    Also in Houston, and not a fan of the Flying Saucer. Though they do have a fantastic beer selection. Much prefer the Petrol Station. It helps that I'm not Southwest Asian/Middle Eastern...

  • Coeus||

    Curious myself. Did Moore show? When I told you he was comming, I thought it was verified. I found out the next day that it was "an unverified source".

    P.S. If you talked to me in the weekend thread, it wasn't me. I was only there long enough to piss off the troll, but it seems there were more coments posted under my name this weekend than the whole rest of the month combined.

  • Cunning Linguist Apatheist||

    I figured I was being trolled but I couldn't help myself.

  • Coeus||

    I know the feeling. Though I'm trying to turn over a new leaf in light of recent events.

  • Lester Hunt||

    So barter is good and selling is bad. Trading stuff for stuff is good and trading stuff for money is bad. I don't get it.

  • sevo||

    Neither do they.

  • Old Salt||

    Not to "flashbang the vet" but...

    Think of the subtle border between dating and prostitution; I'm a serious kind of guy if I take a girl out for a hundred dollar meal but if I just shove the c-note in her hand then I'm a pervert!

    The lady in question has still received $100 worth of resources from the date/john, the only difference is the form that said exchange took!

  • Another Phil||

    That you don't know the difference is why women find you so charming.

  • Old Salt||

    I clearly explained that I do know the difference; I'm just mentioning a thought experiment that every straight male on the planet has pondered at some point in their lives!

  • ||

    "So barter is good and selling is bad. Trading stuff for stuff is good and trading stuff for money is bad. I don't get it."

    That's confusing to a lot of people. There's basically two components of the thinking you're looking for.

    1) Barter suggests people are doing what they're doing for mere survival. ...if people are just trading essentials for essentials, there's no greed involved. It's all rainbows and unicorns.

    2) When you trade stuff for money, it means there's a bank transaction involved somewhere. And bank transactions ultimately put money in the pockets of bankers. ...and bankers wear top hats and spin their monocles while sipping snifters of brandy and while wearing tuxedos and hating on rainbows and unicorns.

    That's basically all there is to it.

  • cynical||

    Well, there is a distinction. When you use fiat money, you're choosing to subject yourself to the monetary authority's whims about supply. Even for "hard money", official debasement is a similar issue. And when you don't use cash, you're subjecting both parties to surveillance and oversight. While it's less efficient materially, barter is certainly better in terms of freedom.

  • ||

    Yeah, if you think the protestors of Occupy Wall Street are complaining about the vagaries of fiat money and money supply, you don't understand where they're comin' from...

    Think rainbows and unicorns--'cause that's what they believe in.

  • King Mob||

    I guess Reason is going "conservative" these days. That's pretty disappointing.

  • WWNGD||

    Those damn conservatives and their free market capitalism ideas.

  • WWSDD||

    Those damn communists and their criticism of the rent-seeking-strangled financial system.

  • Suki||

    Libertarians criticise that too, with the opposite solution.

  • Old Salt||

    The only reason that it seems like we're after the liberals these past three years or so is cause they're the ones Occupying Pennsylvania Avenue right now!

    If the conservatives manage to lie their way into the White House, we'll show the next commander in chief fuck up about as much love as an astronaut has for a Tabasco fart in his space suit!

  • WWNGD||

    Are there any conservatives running in 2012?

  • Old Salt||

    Are there any running in 2012?

    Sure!

    Are there any SERIOUS candidates running in 2012?

    Negative, Ghost Rider; the pattern is full!

    (full of shit that is...)

  • ||

    Who's we, white man?

  • Old Salt||

    I think you meant to call me a cracker?

  • cynical||

    Herp de derp. Communists would strip everything out of the system but the rent-seeking.

  • ||

    Conservative capitalists? I'll believe it when I see it.

  • anarch||

    Is there yet a market in Zuccotti Park pin futures? If not, why not?

  • Stanley||

    Ask me about pins

  • ||

    yeah, I really disappointing! tskkk...

  • Abdul||

    I was at a convention for non-profits where one group wanted to create an alternative to currency that could be traded for goods and services by poor people who lacked "access" to currency.

    They had to explain that to me several times because I wasn't dumb enough to get it the first time.

  • sevo||

    It takes a lot of lefty crap to get that dumb.

  • Red Rocks Rockin||

    The least you could have done was trolled them a bit and proposed the possibility of a "barbaric yellow metal" as the medium of exchange.

  • ||

    Gold: it's 100% natural!

  • ||

    Yes. Let's pay poor people in something they can't exchange for anything we don't endorse. That will definitely make them freer.

  • PantsFan||

    Vancouver seeks injunction to shut down "Occupy Vancouver"
    http://www.vancouversun.com/ne.....story.html

  • Whoopi Goldberg||

    All around the tiny tent city, vendors have sprung up, like mushrooms in warm compost, selling all kinds of Occupy Wall Street paraphernalia— buttons, pins, souvenirs.

    Yeah, but that's not commerce - commerce...

  • J Clarkson||

    Oh Hammond's an idiot.
    You did the lap in 1 minute... forty.... five... and 6 tenths! Congratulations you're slower than Tom Cruise.

  • Old Salt||

    Just like how it's not "rape" rape if it happens on OWS's watch?

  • AlmightyJB||

    She better not let the General Assembly see her selling that unlicensed OWS merchandise. They have ways of dealing with that shit.

  • Suki||

    Yea, they erected a tent for that.

  • Old Salt||

    I thought that an erected tent was something that you're supposed to hide WITH things and not hide THINGS with?

  • Suki||

    So, the new trolls are gone, along with an old one.

  • sevo||

    I'd say the ban-hammer came down; WI (et al?) didn't need an excuse to demolish a thread and I don't see a single comment.
    But then WI is probably used to that having been tossed from every board on the web.

  • Coeus||

    I'd say the ban-hammer came down

    Maybe, but it's possible they just had to go to their state-mandated juvenile prison today. It might end up being a regular weekend occurence until they get a driver's license.

  • Suki||

    The comments are back on the weekend thread. I thought there were over 2020 before, now it is less.

  • Apatheist||

    You'd think they would at least learn the lesson not to leave a massive piece of troll bait like this one as the last post of the day/week. Today was actually quite troll free.

  • primitivist anarch||

    Don't jinx the gods of fair weather.

  • ||

    I hear some of them have head and body lice to trade.

    Oh, and here's Bloodsport the band.

  • AlmightyJB||

    That's oddly hypnotic and I'm not even high.

  • AlmightyJB||

    I wonder what kind of shit people will bring to the barter market. Probably lame crap like beads and dream catchers.

  • ||

    That's pretty much how the "gift economy" at Burning Man works.

    If you're lucky, you get handmade lame crap. Anything useful being given away is either gone in a couple of days or has endless lines for. Standing in line for some bacon at one camp last year I was hilariously reminded of Soviet bread lines.

  • ¢||

    Hippies wouldn't last a month truly living the life they advocate.

    Slander! They'd stand in those guard towers for years.

  • PantsFan||

  • AlmightyJB||

    Smokin' Joe! One of the all time greats and my fav. That's too bad.

  • Coeus||

    The drug survey article just vanished into the aether. Dammit, aside from taser threads, those are my favorite.

  • AlmightyJB||

    Drugs and Tasers do go quite well together.

  • AlmightyJB||

    Just so you know though, there never actually was a drug poll thread. You just imagined it.

  • Coeus||

    Just so you know though, there never actually was a drug poll thread. You just imagined it.

    In that case, I'm gonna have to re-up on this shit before the current batch is all gone.

  • The Selling of Land||

    is possible only due to the agricultural city-STATE, which hinders the free movement of peoples by using arbitrary and artificial lines of demarcation.
    Officer, am I free to gambol?

  • barfman||

    *barf*

  • Wha da hell?||

    Thanks a fuck ton, Coeus!

    You're chronic was strong enough to warp the laws of reality and let the troll out of its gimp cage!

  • AlmightyJB||

    I think I need some of that.

  • ||

    https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions#!/petition/we-demand-vapid-condescending-meaningless-politically-safe-response-petition/gCZfn86x

  • ||

  • I demand a vapid||

    response from vapid libertarians, those anti-statists who owe their precious ideals to the agricultural city-STATE. Such a STATE restricts the free movements of peoples by using arbitrary and artificial lines of demarcation.
    Officer, am I free to gambol?

  • barfman||

    *baaaaaaarf*

  • Dello||

    "It's over folks."

    Not yet. Once the trademark holder SUES the woman selling "Occupy Wall Street" buttons, THEN it's over.

  • AlmightyJB||

  • PantsFan||

    Serious Question

    How do I keep the Lamborghini Murcielago from oversteering in Gran Turismo?

  • ||

  • Dello||

    Best response possible.

  • Dylboz||

    Throttle control.

  • PantsFan||

    Serious Question 2
    You are at a housewarming party. You bring a 6 of Stella. The homeowner supplied some Bud Light. Do you share your Stella?

  • ||

    Yes.

  • Ted S.||

    I don't drink beer.

  • Old Salt||

    Elaboration needed; am I trying to get into the homeowners pants?

  • AlmightyJB||

    Why else would you be there?

  • Old Salt||

    Maybe I'm there to just steal shit?

  • AlmightyJB||

    Dude, they drink bud light. You think theyre going to have anything worth taking?

  • Dello||

    ^^^This^^^

  • FlyoverCountry||

    Keep the Stella in the car, drink the hostess' shitty bud light, bang said hostess, then leave a Stella in the fridge before sneaking out in the morning.

    How can you be an adult without knowing how to approach simple situations like this on?

  • Dylboz||

    They are both Anheuser Busch/InBev products. Same swill, different label.

  • Joe M||

    This.

  • Dello||

    "Stella! Stella!"

    Seriously, why would even take her into the house?

  • ||

    The bartering is frankly a positive sign.

    Once you get a communist to concede that free exchange is a positive good, he's doomed to eventually realize that money is a necessity. And then it's just a sliperry slope to full on capitalism.

    I'd be much more worried if they forbade barter and forced everyone to donate their skills to the collective. This way, it's like a big economics experiment and they are getting hands-on experience with the theoretical underpinning of capitalism.

  • ||

    They're not all communists. Most of them are just progressives.

  • Suki||

    Same thing, different word.

  • AlmightyJB||

    Exactly

  • Kevin Carson||

    It's only over if you assume that what OWS is against is markets and commerce. But that's an unwarranted assumption, even if the right-wing echo chamber's been working overtime to resurrect the Nixon-era "Dirty Fucking Hippies vs. the Hardhats" meme.

    The specific ideologies represented range from Leninists to libertarian communists to Obamacrats (who are hardly anti-commerce) to Paulistas, and everything in-between.

    The one hatred that unites them is for crony capitalists, and thirty years of productivity gains going almost entirely to CEOs and billionaires on the taxpayer tit.

  • Spoonman.||

    Obamacrats==crony capitalists

  • But...||

    Crony capitalists doesn't equate to anti-commerce.

  • Spoonman.||

    Crony capitalism equates to anti-free-commerce.

  • Applejack||

    Converting your surplus product into money to buy what you want when you want to free yourself from death, disease and hunger is so conventional. Hipsters like these don't care much for the conventional.

    And what have you got against hooves?

  • Great and Powerful Trixie||

    And horns?

  • Charlie||

    I see this as a very positive development. And it's only hypocritical for the ones who actually oppose capitalism, but clearly, and from watching the Schiff video, there are plenty out there who are not against capitalism per se - they are just confused about what capitalism is.
    But what's great, is that they get hands on experience in experimental entrepeneurship. And for those with an ounce of sense, these experiments should lend them greater wisdom into the actual workings of a market. Here's hoping some even bond together one day, and oh no!, start a factory or large retail store!

  • Lord Humungus||

    so what's the going rate for a Zuccotti Park Pin?

  • Lord Humungus||

    btw, I recently saw an E-book site selling 'Memories of the OWS movement', a "book" of personal reminiscences from protesters who were part of the 'world changing' movement.

    lemme see...

    Voices From the 99 Percent: An Oral History of the Occupy Wall Street Movement
    http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/102023

    now where's barfman?

  • ||

    those are all around 2MB pictures. Get your act together, woman.

    "Resizing is haaaaaard."

  • ||

    I am disgusted with ALL of you!!!! Not ONE, nay, ONE mention of:

    BARTERTOWN!

    Not one of the commentariat slipped in the obvious, "Who runs Bartertown?"
    I was also disgusted that no one suggested a Zucchini Park Thunderdome to deal with all those sicko perverts and deviant rapists. Branding the pig killer, anyone??? Where's the crossbows? More importantly, where's NOW, Gloria Steinem, Gloria Allred and Janine Golfin-with-Buffalos to denounce Rape-Stock? Hmmm?

    Does the fruit hang any lower, people?

    I, for one, am gravely disappointed and thoroughly sickened with all of you.

    Especially you, muscle bound, mask and codpiece clad Humungus. Feh.

  • Lord Humungus||

    the less we speak of the 3rd movie...

  • AlmightyJB||

    I did see comments the other day suggesting methane as an energy source.

  • ||

    How do I keep the Lamborghini Murcielago from oversteering in Gran Turismo?

    Soften the rear bar.

  • ||

    Bloomberg is, as I type, hyperventilating about TEH BLACK MARKET ORGAN plague.

    The worst part? PROFITZES!!!!

  • AlmightyJB||

    THe worst part to him is profits he can't get is greedy little fingers on.

  • ||

    libertarian communists

    It's a good thing I didn't have a mouthful of coffee.

    Is this "random word pair Tuesday"? I didn't get the memo.

  • AlmightyJB||

    Free Trade and Communal Sex

  • cynical||

    Well, if you live on a commune and think that people ought to do that, but don't believe that it is justifiable to use coercion to get them there, I guess you would be a libertarian communist. Not a libertarian Communist, of course.

  • Applejack||

    People who claim to understand property rights and then claim that intellectual property is tyranny and talk about it the way materialist Marxists used to talk about farmland: if an individual programmer keeps his source code proprietary there is no innovation. By contrast it blooms in the commune of open source programmers. Just replace programmer with farmer, source code with land and open source programmers with "the people" (or whatever the generation of Marxists prefer to call the collective) and you've got the classic Marxist critique of materialist property rights. And we are living in the freakin' information age right now. And it's not just programming, how many times have you heard libertarians claim they have a right to all that others have created so long as it isn't material?

  • CrackertyAssCracker||

    If you don't want me to see your super cool code, don't show me. Once you show me, it's my idea too. Don't like it? Tough shit, I own my brain and my computer. You are the one denying my ownership of my stuff, so are much closer to a Marxist than I am.

  • Applejack||

    That doesn't make any sense at all. And it's not a matter of "once you show me" it's a matter of "I have no right NOT to show you". All information must be in the public domain and that reeks to high heavens of Marxism to me.

    Apparently information "stagnates" (a verb actually used by some open source fundamentalist) when individuals and corporations are given intellectual property rights and they must share it to produce fertile software (show me an open source Photoshop and I might agree.) Why is that any different than the Marxist who claims that land "stagnates" if a land owner is allowed to do whatever he wishes with it or that people with capital "hoard" it if we don't take it from them by force?

    And that's only the area that I'm most familiar with. We all know far too many libertarians are materialists who don't respect intellectual property rights. That's often where libertarian audience members get into (speaking) scraps with Objectivist lecturers during Q&A. How dare Microsoft keep their APIs proprietary! All their decades of work and billions of dollars of research are belong to us! Why? Because... we are the people? Well come on, why?

  • Bradley||

    How dare Microsoft keep their APIs proprietary! All their decades of work and billions of dollars of research are belong to us! Why? Because... we are the people? Well come on, why?

    You seem intelligent enough to understand that this is a stawman, so fuck you for saying it. Only the most extreme open-source proponents (maybe Richard Stallman, but I'm not even sure about him) consider not sharing the same as stealing. Almost nobody insists that all software be distributed either libre or gratis, let alone both.

    Most of us IP critics simply think that Microsoft's development of a proprietary API/algorithm/whatever doesn't give them the right to prevent others from creating something similar using their own labour and tools.

    And if Microsoft wants to restrict use of its super cool API using some stupid EULA, so be it. A contract is a contract. But that does not give Microsoft the right to pursue third parties with whom it has no contractual agreement (like file-sharers, say) nor the right to force taxpayers to subsidize the cost of settling their contractual disputes using shit like copyright cops, special antipiracy legislation, etc etc.

    You're trying to smuggle in an immense amount of monopoly privilege and taxpayer-robbery with a term as broad as "intellectual property rights".

  • Applejack||

    So I take it you believe that your tax money should go to funding burglary-cops, right? "Copyright cops", if there are such things (is such a thing. Whatever.) are or would be the intellectual equivalent of those cops who go after the people who have stolen material goods from your house.

    And heard of WINE? They've been demanding that Microsoft release the source code of their core API for years now. And as I said I hear it from self-identified libertarians at discussions by Objectivists all the time. It's not always on the subject of source code per say (they often haven't even heard of the term) but just "programs" and other forms of intellectual property (books, films, etc.)

    And the government of the US and the various governments of Europe are not exactly big fans of Microsoft. You know the company was sued for the crime of giving away a program completely free of charge and now they pay millions a year on protection money (hidden behind the cute euphemism of "lobbying") to try to stop that from happening again? Few people know that before that ridiculous anti-trust suit Microsoft spent exactly ZERO dollars on government appeasement and tribute money.

  • ||

    the less we speak of the 3rd movie...

    The OWS movement IS the third movie, Humungus.

  • ||

    Zuccotti Park has been a mecca for food carts and other street vendors since before 9/11. Why is the presence of vendors being presented as "news"?

  • ||

    "an economy where people live hand-to-mouth and die in their 40s is so much more sustainable than the alternatives"

    And the tragic part is that these cretins have been "educated" by others who actually believe that.

    May the GOD of Abraham have mercy on this nation.

  • ||

    Who runs Barter Town?

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