Amanda Carey | August 3, 2009
Educating a public school student in the Washington, D.C., region costs taxpayers about 45 percent more than it did in 2002, according to district budget figures, with that robust influx of dollars funding only modest gains in student performance.
The region's per-student expenditure was about $14,240 in 2009, using comparable numbers from D.C. Public Schools, Montgomery and Prince George's county schools, and Fairfax, Arlington and Alexandria City schools. In 2002, it was about $9,800.
It's true that spending has increased in Virginia and Maryland as well as D.C., but in the nation's capitol, at least, all that extra taxpayer money hasn't prevented the school system from being ranked as one of the worst (if not the worst) in the country. Just goes to show that money doesn't solve everything. Apparently, D.C. has yet to recognize that fact. And until they do, taxpayers will be paying the price.
Reason's archive on D.C. public schools here.
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"Rich" districts don't need to waste money on metal detectors
and so they can spend more money on new copies of Watership
Down.
Those kids in the DC schools need those metal detectors and so the
"more money per student" doesn't take into account purchases of
things that "rich" districts don't have to buy in the first
place.
But DC likes the bling. Doesn't matter if the money achieves anything. The spending makes them 'feel' better about themselves.
so, what is DC's problem? They spend a lot to educate each student, but they achieve poor results. Is it endemic poverty?
Publicly funded, but not government provided, is the way to go
for K-12 edumacation.
Yeah, vouchers. Redeemable at both the Ayn Rand elementary schools
and your local madrassas.
And D.C. ain't got shit on Detroit when it comes to public school
disaster stories.
wayne, the answer is the same as everywhere else. Kids' success in school is only as good as their parents' involvement, and the seriousness of the students. No amount of money or high tech classrooms can change that.
Devil's advocate: The increase has led, according to the article, to 'modest gains'. So more money did, in one sense, lead to better quality. Just not much better.
You lose the argument when you tacitly agree government-funded
-- and worse, federally-regulated -- and mandatory "school" is
hunky dory.
The same goes for censorship, weapon bans, nationalized medicine,
nationalized banks, and half-nationalized industry. The socialist
press of any age is adept at creating the false dichotomy between
levels of socialism, to which they add an arrow that points at
"progress".
anonymous - yeah, and ponies are nice too. But anything that
will help break up the monopoly provides instantaneous and
recognizable gains, but allows the liberals to still talk about how
we "provide" schooling for everyone.
I don't like it, either. But let's not let the perfect be the enemy
of the good.
But let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the
good.
The thing about it is, it seems like it would be a lot easier to
create an anti-school-district than to fix any of the other things.
Like a HOA that does nothing but prohibit another HOA from
existing, or a MUD that consists of a water fountain in a park but
encompasses an entire county, or a State that refuses all federal
monies: a self-defense contract that, when working properly,
displaces something worse.
I know I don't understand how a school district works, but I hear
nothing of this beyond Free State Wyoming (and precious little of
that) because these conditions are accepted so deeply, even if
they're acutely locally controllable.
I shall call it gulching in place, and it will be good, yea.
Also median income and distributions of parental education are
going to play a role in determining how much it may cost to educate
X percentage of the student body to Y educational level.
I don't think that it takes a rocket surgeon to determine that it
takes more money to educate the children of poor, uneducated
families to a 10th grade level than the children of affluent, well
educated families.
The flipside is that no matter how much money you spend, some of
those children from impoverished and uneducated families are going
to end up impoverished and uneducated, and probably a higher
percentage than the children from the educated and affluent
families.
It probably makes a great deal of sense to compare spending rates
in DC schools to, for example, spending rates and performance
statistics in the Dallas ISD, or Baltimore schools, where rates of
affluence and parental education may be similar, than it is to
compare to suburbs with higher concentrations of well off and well
educated families.
Not that DC schools don't suck, and that government policies aren't
likely to blame, but let's compare apples to apples.
A much better case-study of the futility of throwing money at
poor schools full of children who don't want to learn would be
Kansas City Missouri. I've lost my sources over the years, but
maybe five years ago, the State [of MO] was throwing so much money
at the KCMO school district they literally couldn't spend it all.
They built a world-class planetarium. They sent _TAXIS_ to "bus"
white kids to integrate schools. At some schools, the ratio of
computers to students was over 1.0. In other schools, the
student-teacher ratio was under 10!
....and two years later the district lost North Central
accreditation and its diplomas became worthless.
We all know no amount of government pressure can change the
fundamentals, and in many inner-city places, students fundamentally
don't have a will to learn.
* I believe Thomas Sowell wrote about this in a book or two. But I
grew up just over the river in Kansas, and saw it happen to people
I knew, generally average-income people who got trapped on the
wrong side of a state line.
I don't know, I think a case can definitely be made for spending
public money on schools. I think of it kind of like preventive
policing. If I educate the neighbors kid he's less likely to break
into my house. Also, maybe later he will shop at my store
etc.
So yeah I can see the point of public funding for schools. But we
need to get the competition back in to get real progress.
Is it endemic poverty?
It's a little of that, and a little of all that extra money going
into teacher's pockets (and pensions) without any expectation of
showing something for it. At least that's what's happening here in
NYC.
Usually, when the spending is that high, you can track it down
to the ratio of high-priced administrators to moderately-priced
teachers.
Compare the ratio of administrators to teachers at a private school
vs a public school system.
All that extra money could easily go towards funding the massive
black hole called "unfunded pension liabilities". Look at teh
pension programs and it is hard to figure out why all extra money
will be chasing good money after bad.
The kids can't learn to read or do math, because if they did they'd
be leading a revolution.
3 words: Performance Based Salary
The better the students learn, the better the teachers are paid.
Simple as that. Of course, the teachers' unions will never support
something like that because God forbid people earn based on the
quality of the service provided.
Ever notice how private schools do so much better and have much
higher test scores? Privatize Privatize Privatize
HeadTater. agreed. I'll take a job teaching first grade in a
school where, say, 95% of the kiddies have had 3 years of
preschool, come from upper middle class 2 parent households and are
well fed, well dressed and well behaved. You take the job teaching
first grade in the school where most of the kids are
undernourished, poorly dressed from single parent lower class
homes. Your kids have no pre-school and most have no idea what
letters or numbers are and are undisciplined with a severe lack of
self-control.
Don't complain if I make more money based upon my student's
progress.
My mom was on the Board of Ed in my home town, and she fought tooth and nail against every charter school proposal, as they threatened to take 90% of per-pupil spending from the district, for every student accepted by charter schools. Apparently that was unfair or something. I could never figure out why she was so passionate about the issue, other than teacher's union brainwashing, but let me tell you she really cared about public schools.
Actually, I can add one detail. Charter schools could refuse whichever students they wanted, while public schools were forced to take every special needs child. This apparently threatened the entire foundation of public schooling. As you can imagine, my mom is a Democrat. Please don't make fun of her.
brotherben, where did he say anything about making the numbers
the same? If the metrics are "raise X by Y amount by Z year", that
puts each teacher in the same place, regardless of the starting
points of the students.
you act like performance-based pay would require the same outcome.
It would just require the same results, and those are two different
things.
There was an article a couple weeks ago in The Idaho Statesman
about a state run charter school in Nampa Idaho(iirc) that was
using the Bible as a "textbook" in one of the classes. It was
created a tiny little shitstorm.
Idaho is funny about such things. The LDS church is pretty powerful
there. I remember in middle school and high school in Weiser Id the
mormon kids would go across the street to a church run building
during school to attend seminary classes. I don't know if it is
still that way.
TAO, it would create a problem down here when all the kids have to pass exit exams in 5 subjects to get a diploma. At some point, the results have to be equal.
well, exit exams are part of the problem, although they do at least require a base of knowledge. You certainly do not want to make it so subjective that high-school diplomas from certain areas have an automatic reputation, do you?
I think exit exams are a good thing. You need to make sure that
students learn. I know that it puts a lot more stress on students
around that time, but I think it would be good for the school
systems, and I know plenty of other high school students who
agree with me.
As for the reputation, if I get a diploma from a school that's
known to have a really tough exit exam vs getting a diploma from
a school that has no exit exams and really lenient final exams,
then of course I want the "automatic reputation."
I don't think that it takes a rocket surgeon to determine
that it takes more money to educate the children of poor,
uneducated families to a 10th grade level than the children of
affluent, well educated families.
OK, I'll bite: how?
Education dollars are spent on personnel and facilities.
Has the additional money in DC been spent on facilities that
eclipse their suburban counterparts? No.
Has the additional money in DC been spent to create a much lower
student / teacher ratio than exists in the suburbs? No.
The additional monies aren't being spent on materials or services
that reach the student level. You know it, I know it.
The additional monies are spent because urban school districts
don't just have the mission of educating kids. They have the
additional, not-so-secret mission of providing public employment on
a large scale for urban constituencies. Junior grade Marion Barry
types need jobs, and they get them in the DC public school
system.
We've disagreed on this before. It is the opinion of several posters here that the problem is mostly due to the union and the public school system. It is my opinion that the problem is mostly due to the breakdown of family in the U.S. that results in parents not preparing their children for school.
If that money was spent on higher teacher pay the DC schools would be a success.
Hey UNreason Magazine!
Your expert for Middle Eastern affairs -- the anti-Israeli
anti-Semitic, Juan Cole -- now compares Sarah Palin to Achmadinijad
(if so, why does the creep not support her?).
This is the idiot so-called "Reason Magazine" uses to comment on
Israeli affairs.
Of course, your readership is even worse with all the Ernst Rhoem
wannabes about.
"There's no need to fear. Underzog is here."
The Jewish
Defense League Marching Song
It is my opinion that the problem is mostly due to the
breakdown of family in the U.S. that results in parents not
preparing their children for school.
No amount of money can fix that.
Spending money on something unfixable is a colossal waste.
brotherben,
agreed and agreed.
So what was your problem with pay for performance then? Think of
the lesser schools as the minor leagues. Teachers start there and
if they show they can succeed somewhat there they get called up to
the bigs and make more money.
If I educate the neighbors kid he's less likely to break
into my house.
So, public education is a protection racket?
Perhaps I'm better off just paying the kid directly rather than
wasting my money on superfluous stuff.
I don't know, I think a case can definitely be made for spending public money on schools. I think of it kind of like preventive policing. If I educate the neighbors kid he's less likely to break into my house.
I prefer the burbclave model: criminals can't rob my house if they
can't get to it, and it's a whole fuckload cheaper than paying to
educate everyone, including those who don't want to be
educated.
although I hate the burbs, if and when I have children, I am with squarooticus. Cities just FAIL at providing anything approaching livability any more.
TAO: burbclave doesn't necessarily imply suburb: it could be a
gated apartment complex within a larger city.
I personally prefer smaller cities over suburbs in terms of
livability: small enough that it doesn't take 2 hours to get
outside the metro area, but big and dense enough to support lots of
"stuff" within easy biking distance of one's residence.
It is the opinion of several posters here that the problem
is mostly due to the union and the public school system. It is my
opinion that the problem is mostly due to the breakdown of family
in the U.S. that results in parents not preparing their children
for school.
Yes, and the latter mostly precipitates the former, because it's a
societal breakdown that allows it to happen (and courts government
privileges in lieu of freedom). And you can't legislate society
back to good times, I think we'll all agree, though we could lessen
its speed downward by eliminating wealth redistributions and tax
code that encourages government to take the role of sugar
daddy.
But when the media, if one takes it at least partially as
representative of popular sentiment, represents vouchers, which
don't even reduce the tax theivery, as an oppression and drain on
"public" funds... well, you have quite a way to go to logical
discourse, much less to any improvement.
tl;dr: hulk smash
Underzog spun the cap back on the Concord Grape Manischewitz,
then decided to take another swig. If muter thought he was such a
boychick, why did she let him use the computer? He was no
schmendrik, after all--that's why mume would kvell when he kvetched
about the meshuggene over on that web site full of "libertarian"
goyim who he would potch around like a bunch of nebbishes.
He heard her coming and quickly shoved the bottle back into the
pantry.
But when the media, if one takes it at least partially as representative of popular sentiment, represents vouchers, which don't even reduce the tax theivery, as an oppression and drain on "public" funds... well, you have quite a way to go to logical discourse, much less to any improvement.
Ah, something to use against the ignorant jocks and dumb blondes
who comprise 99% of the teaching population next time.
Could anybody explain how merit based pay wouldn't lead to teachers lowering standards, the only solution I can see to that is standardized testing, and most seem to be against that.
Enyap - have merit-based salaries in other aspects of American
societies led to lower-standard fare?
Of course they haven't. Not to invoke an old cliche, but have you
taken Econ 100?
TAO and robc, there are too many variables with the levels of teachability in the students to use a merit pay system IMO. I have a friend whose wife was a first grade teacher in a very low income rural district. She claimed to have students come to school that had never seen a book. They had no concept at all of reading. My kids, otoh, could read and write with comprehension when they went into first grade. Both sets of kids would have to reach the same level to pass into 2nd grade. My friends wife has a very very difficult task. My kids' teachers could basically stay home for the year because my kids were already at the level necessary.
oops. In the situation I described, the teacher with the poor students should get a much higher salary, right?
Dude, brotherben, no offense, but I hear that excuse
constantly. Teaching children really is not that
difficult. "ZOMG - you get some rednecks in there who have never
seen a book!"
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not to say that anyone's lying when they say
that, but they are exaggerating.
And, again, brotherben, you're assuming that it would be based on
individual student performance. It needn't. Perhaps you could say
"pass percentage X of students into Grade Y - here are the
qualifications".
The number of categorical retards who go into teaching tells me
that it could use some competition.
TAO, I agree that there are a lot of real shitty teachers. Down here, it seems the ones that are 3 or 4 years from retirement are the absolute worst. They know they would have to commit murder to get canned and the just don't give a fuck about teaching. Just wanna get them days in and retire. But I also know that there are a lot of kids that are not interested in learning and that are a real disruptive force in the classroom. The teacher's hands are tied when it comes to discipline and the kids know it. The parents don't give a damn, unless little johnny gets cut from the football team or susy can't be a spirit leader. It makes for an environment that isn't appropriate for performance based pay.
"... there are a lot of kids that are not interested in learning
...The teacher's hands are tied ...The parents don't give a damn,
... It makes for an environment that isn't appropriate for
performance based pay...."
What a sob story. Let the teachers quit if they don't like
performance pay...if the parents don't care then at least let them
have more football coaches and every girl can get a cheerleading
uniform. They learn just as much and perhaps some good teachers or
principles would make some money and bring in some teachers willing
to try their methods. More importantly think of all the pension
spending we'd save on.
Of course I am against public schools.
Idaho is funny about such things. The LDS church is pretty
powerful there. I remember in middle school and high school in
Weiser Id the mormon kids would go across the street to a church
run building during school to attend seminary classes. I don't know
if it is still that way.
That's everywhere actually. Some high schools allow students to
take seminary during the school day while others do seminary right
before high school starts (normally at 6AM). It's allowed because
it doesn't count at all towards their graduation requirement. So it
doesn't violate SoCS.
Merit Pay! Pay for Performance! Lots of Shitty Teachers!
Teaching children is not that difficult! Yeah, yeah, yeah...
A while back a study showed that most parents gave their own
childrens schools and teachers an average grade of B+. Now throw
out the whiners whose little angel can do no wrong and always tell
the truth and I'd say a rating like that would merit performance
pay.
I've been an elementary educator for thirty-one years. Hundreds of
my students have gone on to college and highly successful careers.
Hundreds more went to work right after high school and work
successfully at all sorts of jobs. A handful didn't make it through
high school, and a few went bad. Lots of kids didn't score well on
standardized tests. That didn't mean they weren't learning, but
some had to figure out that they weren't going to work for
NASA.
Public schools built the workforce that powers this country. The
real elitists here are those who would deny kids a chance at a
quality education that is offered by great teachers throughout the
public schhols of America. Thankfully, lots of top notch people
come into education DESPITE the low pay and lack of respect for
their profession. But, if there is a strong demand for higher
quality teachers, would it not seem that the free market would have
to pay more to attract them?
D.C. schools are a world of their own. If there were easy answers,
I'm pretty sure they would have been found by now. IMHO smallers
schools with greater autonomy for the teachers and principals would
allow the development of a variety of workable strategies to
improve student performance. It must be understood, however, that
the most highly corelated indicator of test performance is family
income. Plus, the tests suck. If anyone here has not had the
opportunity to see the test questions, you ought to try.
Finally, I'm one of those teachers nearing retirement. Some of my
students this year will probably think I'm a big meanie. But a few
years from now, maybe they'll buy me a beer at the local pub, just
like their dads.
Teaching children is not that difficult!
I don't think anyone with a good idea of the process of
education would say that. Teaching, like parenting is obviously a
huge pain in the ass. And I agree with brotherben in that many of
the students in underperforming schools have parents who failed
them first.
I grew up in the public schools of the blue-collar 'burbs and
looking back I think I had mostly great teachers, with a few
mediocre ones thrown in for flavor. FWIW, and not much, I'm
thinking about becoming a teacher. In the proverbial ideal world,
teachers, like parents, would only come to the position/profession
for the "right" reasons.
I'm sure you're a great teacher at any rate, rm2muv.
Oh, and I know teaching's a pain in the ass because I clearly recall being one of those kids who, although somewhat bright, was definitely a pain in the ass at times.
Art and rm2muv - if he's such a great teacher, then what the
hell is he afraid of when it comes to merit pay?
Sorry, but teachers have dug their own grave when it comes to
"disrespect for the profession", largely because of the reasons
Gabe has outlined: they get like whiny, stubborn mules and get
their little noses all out of joint if you dare make ONE
suggestion that we should try our school programs
differently.
Make it easier to fire bad teachers? Most will say "fine" and then
defend every bad teacher who comes up on the block.
Performance Pay? "Waaa! Too many problems! Won't work!"
Year-Round School? Like we even need to guess what the response to
that is.
Vouchers? "You're stealing from the poor schools and students!"
Think for a moment what D.C. schools might be if the city were majority Asian instead of majority black. Yeah, I know, it's "racist" to point out that "Asian-Americans" place education a bit higher on the values scale than do "African-Americans."
Here's the problem with your argument, rm2muv:
Indexes of satisfaction with the local public school haven't moved
in a long time.
And you seem to be arguing that the standardized tests are
meaningless, because children of affluent families do well and
children of poor families do poorly no matter what the school
does.
But let's say we stipulate that you're right about these things.
Why on Earth should we raise your salary? Ever? Why are we
increasing the dollar inputs per student in the public schools,
even after adjusting for inflation?
People were just as satisfied with their local school at lower
levels of per-student spending.
And you just said that family income determines the outcome, not
anything the school does.
So what the hell are we increasing your pay for? Why are we
increasing local taxes?
They need to import nuns to teach in the DC schools.
You can't fuck with a nun, so to speak.
They need to import nuns to teach in the DC
schools.
IMPORT?! Buy American, Douglas! ;-)
Yeah, I know, it's "racist" to point out that "Asian-Americans" place education a bit higher on the values scale than do "African-Americans."
It's not racist and it's not class prejudice if you acknowledge that you're speaking in generalities. There are definitely poor black people with a hell of a work ethic regarding education, but by and large, you and Bill Cosby awould seem to be right.
Until we can acknowledge that not all people, and not all
peoples, have equal intellectual ability, the whole education
discussion will be full of obfuscation.
And of course I'm speaking in generalities!
"... there are a lot of kids that are not interested in learning
Make it easy to expel them and make school no longer compulsory.
Problem solved.
I'd be a teacher if NY State didn't make it so hard to become
one. I have a BS in Geography, and could teach any high schoolers
any of the social sciences, and most junior high schoolers math,
science, or English. It's not that hard to do when you have books
and other teaching materials to follow even if you're not
proficient in the subject.
But the state says I have to have a Master's Degree. It takes two
full years to get one, plus because NY doesn't recognize my degree
as being qualified for entry into their master's program, I'd have
to do 2 years of undergraduate "teaching" coursework to prepare me.
I could walk into a classroom today and teach subjects I know, but
I'm not going back to school full time for 4 years to make the same
money I'm making now. That's ridiculous.
Living in the area (but with no children), I've read a bit about
the DC school system over the years. I would divide its problems
into several categories:
Corruption. That doesn't just mean people on the take (though that
happens), but also patronage hiring in the administrative offices.
For a long time, being Marion Barry's friend meant getting a very
cushy gig, indeed.
Facilities. The number of schoolkids in DC has been dropping for
decades, as families with any means at all (of all races) have been
leaving in droves. However, the DC school system is burdened with
dozens of old and crappy school buildings that require much more
maintenance and upkeep than a new building would. Every time the
district tries to close under-attended schools, parents and
neighborhood commissions scream bloody murder. Facilities are also
the first place that gets underfunded, so that the system can put
more Friends of Marion Barry on the payroll. Once a building rots,
fixing it becomes way more expensive.
Cultural issues. No one likes to talk about this, but the culture
of education in the African-American community is not as strong
(IMHO) as in other groups. Personally, I think that is changing,
but cultural attitudes don't change overnight. I don't believe it
has anything to do with learning capacity or whatever.
Poverty. Personally I don't think is as big a factor as the
cultural issues, but there's no doubt that a kid who doesn't even
get breakfast at home in the morning isn't going to be very
receptive in the classroom.
Political correctness. You can't expel or discipline the
troublemakers anymore. Districts have to spend a crazy percentage
of the budget on federally mandated special-ed programs that
benefit a small percentage of children.
Will the Mayor get his sons' uniforms from the new store that
wants to cater to DC Schools?
DC's First School Uniform Store to Open August 10, 2009
DC's Mayor is making good on his promise to send his sons to public
school this fall. And when classes begin, the boys, along with
45,000 other DCPS students, will need new uniforms. Earlier this
year, guidelines were laid out for a more stringent uniform
policy-which studies have shown to improve student discipline,
attendance and retention-but in the past parents usually had to
venture out to Maryland to purchase the mandatory attire.
Enter Octavia Taylor Jackson, a mother of three young boys who
attend DC public schools. After a layoff in late March, she put
into motion a plan she had begun working on months before. Jackson,
a native Washingtonian, has held well-paying jobs in the
government, corporate and nonprofit sectors, but found her calling
in entrepreneurship. Her passion for education and seeing children
succeed in school pushed her to create Y.E.S.S.S. (Your Educational
Supplies, Systems and Services), a school uniform and educational
supply store that also provides consulting for information
technology systems and related services for schools.
In a period of only four months, Jackson-whose last job was Senior
Vice President for Information Technology at an educational
nonprofit-located a venue, hired contractors, ordered inventory,
found employees and is hosting the grand opening of her new store
at 108 Rhode Island Avenue, NW on Monday, August 10. Just in time
for the back-to-school season.
Asked about the reason for her new venture, Jackson states, "I
remember several PTA meetings where I would commiserate with other
parents over our frustration in finding school uniforms and
supplies right here in DC. The tax free weekend wasn't beneficial
when I had to go out to Maryland to find uniforms for my children
who attend DC public schools. I started the company because I enjoy
working with children and saw the need in my community for a store
that sells school uniforms and supplies. I believe that this
company is my destined career for the rest of my work life."
Y.E.S.S.S. (Your Educational Supplies, Systems and Services) is the
preeminent provider of educational resources that students need to
complete their education with the highest level of success. The
company caters to the academic community by offering a full-scale
product line of school supplies, from uniforms to books and
backpacks; along with consulting for information technology systems
and related services. For more information, visit www.theyesss.com
or call (202) 525-4157.
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