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Government Foils Government Plot
Bill Anderson highlights the most salient fact about the Riverdale Temple bombing plot, quoting a passage from a New York Times report:
A federal law enforcement official described the plot as "aspirational" -- meaning that the suspects wanted to do something but had no weapons or explosives -- and described the operation as a sting with a cooperator within the group.
"It was fully controlled at all times," a law enforcement official said.
Such stings are not unusual. The equally "aspirational" Liberty City 6 scheme of 2006, for example, would not have congealed -- to the extent that it congealed at all -- without the government's helpful informants. In the days before 9/11, agents provocateurs infiltrated militia groups; back in the '60s, they invaded the New Left. I doubt such entrapment makes anyone safer. But it does make people scared.
|5.22.09 @ 10:51AM|#
Terrorism isn't for amateurs. They need government professionals to get them off the ground. Sort of like the Small Business Administration. Just a little helping hand to move their dreams forward.
Sean Healy|5.22.09 @ 10:53AM|#
Well, you should also factor in the powerful disincentives the government is creating here. I mean, the evidence suggests that if you decide to become a domestic terrorist, the government will find a way to screw it up for you.
VM|5.22.09 @ 10:53AM|#
"I doubt such entrapment makes anyone safer. But it does make
people scared."
that's the goal
so demand for jackbooted thuggery and rank twaddlenockery
increases...
|5.22.09 @ 10:57AM|#
LOL, I think you hit that nail square on the head dude!
RT
www.whos-watching.se.tc
|5.22.09 @ 10:57AM|#
Let's see: completely incompetent plan, and the government gets
in there, helps them along, and busts them. 9/11: insanely simple
plan, achieves more than expected, and the government has no
fucking clue.
Yeah, the government does an excellent job. Really.
phalkor|5.22.09 @ 11:06AM|#
I don't understand how they can be proud of this. If I were in
any way resposible for this clusterfuck of poor judgment I would be
ashamed.
It's stupid people enabling even more stupid people to do stupid
things and then stupidly saying it's an accomplishment to stop
them.
Maybe I just don't get entrapment, or terrorism. Stupid.
ATF Agent|5.22.09 @ 11:10AM|#
C'mon Randy. Just one sawed-off shotgun. What could it
hurt?
I'm not going away until you say yes!
|5.22.09 @ 11:12AM|#
As a matter of logic, reason and history, why would anybody believe a word coming out of the mouth of these socialist parasitic dependents of the Leviathan? The presumption is that the government prevaricates.
RON PAUL == TRUTH|5.22.09 @ 11:13AM|#
9/11: insanely simple plan, achieves more than expected, and
the government has no fucking clue.
...OR DID IT????
|5.22.09 @ 11:16AM|#
I doubt such entrapment makes anyone safer. But it does make
people scared.
"If God the boogeyman did not exist, it would be
necessary to invent Him."
|5.22.09 @ 11:23AM|#
How did they foil the plot without waterboarding? I thought they couldn't keep us safe without it.
|5.22.09 @ 11:29AM|#
It's reasonable to think that if there are enough stories of government agents setting these things up and blowing the cover on them that people will be more suspicious if an al qaeda operative shows up with the same sort of offer. The only issue is whether that ever happens, which seems unlikely.
Xeones|5.22.09 @ 11:31AM|#
Episiarch is one of THEM! COSMOTARIAN BILDERBERG FLUORIDATED
KOCHTOPUS RAWRGH
GET OUT OF MY FILLINGS
|5.22.09 @ 11:36AM|#
The poor idiots (and one may be mentally retarded) who got trapped were never going to get too far and will pay an unreasonably high price for their stupidity, but this does have some small benefits (enough to justify the downside of encouraging fascism, I dont know). It does serve to send out a warning to the wannabe jihadis out there (and there ARE some out there). It makes people less likely to act on stupid impulses and makes the job of actual jihadi agents (such do exist, more in England than here, but I can imagine a jihadi organization sending some agent to try and put together a little plot) a little harder. I can tell you that its also useful in internet forums: I have found you can usually shut up the jihad sympathizer on your group if you bring up the possibility that said asshole is probably an FBI agent provocateur..
|5.22.09 @ 11:50AM|#
Those weren't firemen running in and out of those buildings- those were government demolition experts!
Eric Dondero|5.22.09 @ 11:54AM|#
I guess this explains all the rampant Anti-Semitism from the
ringleader of the NY bombers, who said:
"If I see a fucking Jew on the street I will want to kill them...
put a fucking bullet through their heads..."
Funny, ever so cynical Jesse Walker, forgot to mention that little
point in his piece.
Xeones|5.22.09 @ 11:55AM|#
Why did WTC 7 collapse, huh? Huh? Huh? Huh? Huh? HUH? Don't give me no crap about some fires, everyone knows structural steel only changes properties when it melts. Google it.
Xeones|5.22.09 @ 11:56AM|#
DONDEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Eric Dondero|5.22.09 @ 11:56AM|#
BTW, it wasn't a "plot." The 4 followed through, and actually
planted the bombs at the synagogue. The plot part came in for their
next move, which was to blow up the Air Force base in
Newburgh.
But hey, I plum forgot. Reason hates the Military, so I'm sure
Jesse Walker was cheering that aspect of it on.
Jeffersonian|5.22.09 @ 11:56AM|#
You fucking libertarians. You claim to want a government that
"defends your rights". Yet whenever the government actually does
what it is supposed to do, you question and smear it. I don't care
if they had to "infiltrate" a criminal terrorist group to uncover
their plot. Nor do I care how stupid or insane their plot was.THEY
INTENDED TO KILL PEOPLE! TO VIOLATE THEIR RIGHT TO LIFE! Nothing
could more clearly be within the realm of proper government
action.
You guys are just ignorant of your own political philosophy.
Xeones|5.22.09 @ 11:59AM|#
Hey Erric, i didn't realize that TrueLibertarians supported hate crime legislation. It's not entrapment because some of the dudes hated Jews? That just makes them jerks, not necessarily terrorists.
|5.22.09 @ 12:00PM|#
Hey Eric, can you please threaten to kick my ass? I'm kind of bored and need some amusement. Or at least threaten to kick Xeones' ass; he's a huge pussy.
|5.22.09 @ 12:08PM|#
Nothing could more clearly be within the realm of proper
government action.
I'm not opposed to infiltration for information gathering purposes,
or to halt them in their tracks once they break their first law.
But, to help a bunch of idiots along (who may have hit a wall
because of their own stupidity or ineptitude or just giving up) to
further their goal of attacking people inside our own country is
treason. How's that for clear? What if the agent fails to stop them
and his actions actually made it possible for the group to
eventually succeed?
Jesse Walker|5.22.09 @ 12:12PM|#
Thanks for the non-sequitur, Eric. I didn't "forget" to mention the anti-Semitism in my "piece"; I take it for granted that people who want to blow up synagogues don't like Jews.
Xeones|5.22.09 @ 12:16PM|#
Epi, we know all about your Pudsey Bear fetish.
What if the agent fails to stop them and his actions actually
made it possible for the group to eventually succeed?
Well, no one would ever know there was an agent involved, that's
for sure. We would get a whole bunch of even more draconian
national security measures, though.
|5.22.09 @ 12:21PM|#
Also, I get the impression that you don't know what "plot"
means.
Eric thought you wrote "plotz".
|5.22.09 @ 12:27PM|#
"My wife can be a real bitch sometimes."
"You'd be better off with out her."
"I don't know; she's not all bed."
"Seriously. You'd be better off without her. You can make her
disappear. I can help you."
JD|5.22.09 @ 12:36PM|#
Well, Dondy, no one's claiming they were Boy Scouts. But the
whole point, which you seem to have missed, is that they had pretty
much zero execution capability. They didn't do diddly-squat until
the FBI helped them out. This strongly suggests to those of us who
didn't lose our minds on 9/11/01 that they weren't really much of a
threat, absent somebody pushing them down every step of the
path.
Jeffersonian: I can intend to flap my arms and fly to the moon;
doesn't mean much without the capability to do it.
BTW, if somebody ever sells me a bunch of bombs, I'm damn well
going to be testing one first.
|5.22.09 @ 12:51PM|#
"I don't know; she's not all bed."
I don't have my Reason Lawz pamphlet handy. Is this RC'z Law or
joe's Law?
JB|5.22.09 @ 1:02PM|#
Oh please, if people are at the stage of seeking materials that
is well into the planning and execution of an act. They already
have the intent and the opportunity and are just seeking the
particular means.
It's like saying we shouldn't arrest people who say "I'm going to
rape and kill my ex-wife next Sunday at 2pm...I just have to get a
knife or gun first."
|5.22.09 @ 1:05PM|#
I don't have my Reason Lawz pamphlet handy. Is this RC'z Law
or joe's Law?
Definitely RC'z.
RC'z Law: Typos often improve the post, generally through adding
humor or even, occasionally, insight, unintended by the
poster.
joe's (Memorial) Law: A post insulting someone's intelligence will
have a typo.
Kolohe|5.22.09 @ 1:12PM|#
It's not entrapment because some of the dudes hated
Jews?
It's not entrapment because they actually went out of their way to
plant devices rather than going to the police themselves (or at
least saying, 'piss off' - I wouldn't expect them to go to the
police; I wouldn't either if I were in their situation)
There are no civil liberties violations here - I'll even give you
that the liberty 6 thing was a close call - but this isn't.
Jeffersonian|5.22.09 @ 1:21PM|#
All law enforcement operations like this involve some risk. Yes,
the risk is great if they provide materials that might actually do
damage or lose control of the situation. So is the risk whenever
they deliver a high risk warrant to arrest a suspect. So that's not
even a logical point. You have to balance what is necessary and
proper.
Second of all it doesn't hold up to the empirical reality which is
that the bombs were all inert and useless anyway.
Furthermore I submit the following
Burton surmises that authorities had a tip-off that the mosque used
by chief plotter James Cromite "was conducive to the radicalization
process" and planted an informant among the congregation - which
ultimately led them to Cromite.
At that point, experts say, officials in most U.S. cities would
have arrested Cromite and his fellow-conspirators. But because of
New York's superior resources, authorities were able to take more
time - months, as it turns out - using intensive surveillance to
map out the full details of the plot, and to see if the plotters
had connections to other domestic and international groups.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090522/us_time/08599190037700
So there you go, they actually went beyond what is required by most
law enforcement before arresting them. Furthermore your argument
seems to be that law enforcement picked random dudes off the street
and said "Wanna bomb something?" when in fact the jihadists made
the first several moves based on what we know.
I also submit that most libertarians are far more likely to
criticize law enforcement and military agents than they are Islamic
radicals or criminal thugs. Evidence: Anything on
Lewrockwell.com
JD|5.22.09 @ 1:26PM|#
Jeffersonian: Well, it doesn't do me a lot of good to criticize Islamic radicals, you know? Yes, I think they're a bunch of backwards a-holes who would be best punished by having to live in a country of their own making. But so what? For one thing, it's not like they really care what I say, and for another, it's not like they have a big community of supporters in America anyway...unlike the police. I mean, I haven't heard you criticize HITLER lately, but I don't think that means you're cool with him.
Jeffersonian|5.22.09 @ 1:32PM|#
Way to disaggregate from my argument to ad hominem me.
I made a statement about those who identify as "Libertarians". This
would include Reason, Lewrockwell, and Cato among many
others.
You however immediately turn it to attack an individual (me).
In any foreign policy statement by the libertarians as a group they
stress non-intervention and blowback rather than the ideology that
causes the Islamist insurgency.
|5.22.09 @ 1:33PM|#
I don't think this was "entrapment" in the commonly-used sense
of "they wouldn't have committed a crime except the police tricked
them into it." So what if they were loser ex-con wannabe
terrorists? Loser wannabes commit major crimes all the time.
Getting your hands on explosives (or making some) is not all that
hard. (Granted, shoulder-fired missiles are harder to find.)
The fact that the plot was discovered early, and that they were
provided with fake explosives which they then planted, is no reason
to sneer at the authorities who gave them the means to prove their
intentions, and caught them. This is what law enforcement is
supposed to do, even in an ideal libertarian world. Good for
them.
Mike|5.22.09 @ 1:33PM|#
"I doubt such entrapment makes anyone safer. But it does make
people scared."
The only people who should be scared by stuff like this are
terrorists. I applaud the goverment's actions. This type of stuff
is exactly what government is for. The fact that these guys were
stupid is irrelevant. Eventually, they would have found a way to
hurt someone, since all they had to do is buy a gun and "put a
fucking bullet through their heads". I can't believe anyone is
defending these guys! If this is entrapment, long live
entrapment!
Eric Dondero|5.22.09 @ 1:36PM|#
Yeah, that's fine there Jesse, but what does that have to do
with my comment?
Again, the matter at hand is hatred of Jews by 4 Black Muslims up
in NYC, who planned to blow up, not one, but two synagogues.
The other matter, is their hatred of US Military Personnel by the
fact that they were planning to blow up an AFB.
Your article focuses in on Alex Jones 9/11 Truther crap, that "oh,
golly gee, maybe the US Government was actually behind this, and
not these Black National Socialist Jew Haters."
Which, of course, makes us libertarians look like complete and
utter kooks. But then again, maybe that's your intention, to
destroy the credbility of the libertarian movement, with your
sympathetic Nazi rant.
Eric Dondero, Publisher
Libertarian Republican
Eric Dondero|5.22.09 @ 1:38PM|#
JD, these guys had "zero execution ability"? Really? Have you
seen their criminal records?
Their rap sheets are a mile long and a mile wide.
Blowing up a couple bombs would be small potatos for these guys.
Certainly well within the realm of their abilities.
BakedPenguin|5.22.09 @ 1:39PM|#
Granted, shoulder-fired missiles are harder to find.
But the TeeVee news said they them at gun shows!
Also: DONDERRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
|5.22.09 @ 1:45PM|#
They are missing a big opportunity not making a reality show out
of this. And when the "bombs" go off, they should play disco music
really loud -- or, "Never Gonna Give You Up!"
pwned!
|5.22.09 @ 1:46PM|#
Oh come on, Jeffersonian. Everyone already criticizes Islamic radicals and criminal thugs, and rightly so. The problem a lot of us see is that SOME police and military agents commit wrongs when it is their job to stop wrongs from being committed. It is our responsibility as citizens who authorize their work to hold them accountable to do their jobs and not go beyond the authority we've granted them. We hold them to a higher standard than radicals and thugs, and they should live up to it or how can we trust them to stop radicals and thugs?
Jeffersonian|5.22.09 @ 2:05PM|#
Everyone in the political spectrum emphatically does NOT
criticize radical Islam. There are those on the left, multicultural
wing of the Democrats who consider Christian conservatives and gun
owners as a far more threatening element than radical Islam. When
they do talk radical Islam they blame socioeconomic forces (ie
capitalism) for the situation, not the ideology itself.
The great majority of libertarian foreign policy is built on the
platonic ideal of non-intervention and its logical corollary
"blowback".
Blowback is the very definition of circular logic that leads them
to mistakenly accept the "Blame America" ideas of those left
multiculturalists that really do hate the American ideal.
And I'm all for holding the police and military to the highest
standard. and that standard is the protection of innocent human
life and rights. This whole debate started when Jesse Walker claims
the civil liberties of these thugs were violated by conducting
surveillance on them.
If by the police respecting civil liberties that means they can't
launch an operation to stop these kinds of thugs, then it means
liberty disconnected from the purpose of protecting human life.
alan|5.22.09 @ 2:43PM|#
Jeez, even in libertarian circles some people have to be tip
toed around, and need dog tags on their bodice that state, In Case
of Discomfort Revive With Smelling Salts.
Whether or not the FBI is following the letter of the law, dotting
their 'i', crossing their 't's, their actions should always be
under close scrutiny and examination. This doesn't come from a
reflexive hatred of government, I'm fine with most of what the FBI
does, but without public oversight and authority over them,
government does repress.
It is too early in the news cycle to have anything more than a
skeleton outline of what occurred in this matter, or have a firm
opinion of this case, but does that keep Dondero from
hyperventilating, and accusing libertarians of being marginalized
Nazi sympathizers? Hey, is it Friday?
Jesse Walker|5.22.09 @ 3:04PM|#
Yeah, that's fine there Jesse, but what does that have to do
with my comment?
Um, what did your comment have to do with my post? I raised the
issue of whether these guys were likely to accomplish anything
absent the assistance of the informant, not whether they're good
guys. I think we can take it as a given that anti-Semites and
would-be murderers are bad.
It's been so long since you commented here, I forgot that your
reading comprehension skills are on the Lonewacko level.
B|5.22.09 @ 3:37PM|#
My favorite remains the guy from Columbus I think who was going to knock down the Brooklyn Bridge with a blowtorch.
|5.22.09 @ 4:02PM|#
B: Yes, except he supposedly had plans for the bridge, with one out-of-the-way room marked, and if he had gotten into that room and had some undisturbed time with a blowtorch, he might well have been able to bring the bridge down. At least according to Dick Morris.
Kreel Sarloo|5.22.09 @ 5:33PM|#
Dang, Papaya, that Dick Morris. Yep, when I want information on
engineering I'll go to a political consultant every time.
Oh, except when I go to a retired professor
of philosophy of religion and theology. :)
Actually, kidding aside, heating even one of the suspension cables
sufficiently could theoretically cause a catastrophic failure. I
some how doubt that one man could carry enough gas to the site to
keep a flame going for long enough to get enough heat into the
cable though. But, I'm perfectly willing to be corrected on that
score.
|5.22.09 @ 7:08PM|#
Morris says New York City police commissioner Ray Kelly said the blowtorch plot put the Brooklyn Bridge in serious jeopardy, and said the bridge engineers were spooked by the plans they found, so it's not just Morris' own opinion, as far as I can tell.
Scott|5.22.09 @ 7:35PM|#
This was more than some nitwits who couldn't get out of their own way. The accused received what they believed were live bombs and stinger missiles. They went to so far as to plant the dummy bombs. They weren't malcontents who were just mouthing off, they believed themselves to be and acted to become domestic terrorists. Prosecution for the actions they took appears completely appropriate.
|5.24.09 @ 12:09PM|#
I am intrigued by the notion that - because it was unlikely that
the perps could have executed this without some help - it was
unjustified for the FBI to provide that "help" (in a manner that
resulted in these arrests). This argument ignores the possibility
that the help could have come from malicious abettors, and that
there are plenty of those around, looking for precisely these kinds
of boneheads to exploit to achieve their goals.
I, too, applaud the FBI for their efforts. They have made us safer,
and have violated no rights in doing so.
Scooby|5.24.09 @ 12:32PM|#
Dondero, you moron- having a long and wide rap sheet does not
indicate any kind of criminal ability. It indicates the opposite.
Skillful criminals don't get caught enough to build up a long list
of busts.
How much of our anti-terror budget goes into encouraging
malcontents with room-temp IQ's to step up and plant pre-fabbed
"bombs"? Do the feds have any strategy to foil plots by bad guys
that aren't riding to the planning meetings in a short bus?
|5.24.09 @ 3:01PM|#
But, to help a bunch of idiots along (who may have hit a wall because of their own stupidity or ineptitude or just giving up) to further their goal of attacking people inside our own country is treason.
Since the accused planted the fake bombs they were given, their
prosecution is perfectly just, and there was no treason. And they
might well not have hit a wall, hypotheticals go both ways.
Aside: Settle down, Beavis.
Um, what did your comment have to do with my post? I raised the issue of whether these guys were likely to accomplish anything absent the assistance of the informant, not whether they're good guys. I think we can take it as a given that anti-Semites and would-be murderers are bad.
Whether they are likely to accomplish anything is not relevant in
light of their willingness to in fact attempt mass murder. They
should be prosecuted for it--it's a side benny others may well be
discouraged from working with others to accomplish similar ends,
and an important one. Additionally, it can't be taken for granted
among those who oppose perfectly well executed sting operations of
Islamist terrorists that they think anti-Semites and Islamist
terrorists are not good people.
Do the feds have any strategy to foil plots by bad guys that aren't riding to the planning meetings in a short bus?
Yes, but it involves employing new technology to improve the
efficiency of perfectly constitutional and traditional intelligence
gathering methods, and the constitutional assumptions that
undergird them, so you probably want those strategies to be
stopped.
Yours, TDP, ml, msl, & pfpp
wayne|5.24.09 @ 6:31PM|#
Would-be terrorists are arrested for placing explosives in
public places, and you guys blame the cops? And you think "they
were stupid and inept" bolsters your position? Good grief!
What would you suggest be done instead? I say throw these pricks in
jail and let them out to be buried.
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