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Oh, You Mean I Had to Say "Genocide" After I Became President?
The sun rises in the east, spring follows winter, and a new American president is backing away from his campaign pledge to refer to the Ottoman-era Turkish genocide of Armenians as a "genocide," because the White House is "fearful of alienating Turkey when U.S. officials badly want its help." The L.A. Times has the expectations-lowering story.
Obama's campaign promise–his "principled commitment to
commemorating" a "widely documented fact supported by an
overwhelming body of historical evidence"–is
here. Obama foreign policy guru Samantha Power makes a direct
plea to Armenian-Americans about genocide-recognition and other
issues in this video:
I wrote about the fascinating politics of saying "genocide" for the
L.A. Times in
2007.
|3.17.09 @ 4:20PM|#
should we have Welching a tag?
Kind of sounds like he's not willing to pay off a bet he made with
a tag.
|3.17.09 @ 4:34PM|#
The Obamaniacs should be by to explain how he didn't really mean what he said. OR that this is all complicated international diplomacy stuff that couldn't have ben foreseen and he wasn't in any way shape or form cynically pandering for votes.
|3.17.09 @ 4:35PM|#
Are you REALLY that surprised that Il Duce would revert to realpolitik and pragmatism when the time came (that is, just after taking the crown from the Pope's hands)?
Warty|3.17.09 @ 4:39PM|#
Turks are weird about their history. Try telling one that Ataturk raped children some time, and see the show.
|3.17.09 @ 4:39PM|#
the tags really don't matter. Matt Welch put together a John
Stewart worthy clip here showing Obama's true colors. Obama is
goign to Turkey on April 4th...will he once and for all stand up
and give those turks some of the straight talk express or will he
titty bump with the genociders in a attempt to make way for more
better war spending?
What is Samantha Powers take on this is she the least bit
embarassed for being incredibly naive or is she ashamed to have her
own little Colin Powell moment...showing us how much her word and
best judgement is worth?
|3.17.09 @ 5:02PM|#
Will the Presidential Suit (that's what I'm calling him, now) will get his own chapter in a revised and reissued edition of Lies (and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them?
|3.17.09 @ 5:13PM|#
Samantha Power is awesome. She could sit on Condi's face and
make her feel like a woman.
You can't compare a rationalist with a fundie (unless you're a
fundie).
LarryA|3.17.09 @ 5:16PM|#
This is an issue that only liberals and Armenians care
about.
That's okay. Wait until conservatives discover that, according to
the
Washington Times, "Obama secretly ends program that let pilots
carry guns."
"I respect the Second Amendment. I'm not going to take away your
guns." Barack Obama
creech|3.17.09 @ 5:17PM|#
How big is the Armenian-American vote?
And what was McCain's and Barr's position on this issue?
|3.17.09 @ 5:27PM|#
How big is the Armenian-American vote?
Its huge in Glendale, Ca.
But his margin statewide was 24%. Compromising on a historical
patch is small potatoes.
|3.17.09 @ 5:42PM|#
"How big is the Armenian-American vote? "
How does it matter? Are we asked "to believe " that confirming of
historical truth to prevent the future genocide depends on
primitive election arithmetic?
PopCornTime|3.17.09 @ 5:45PM|#
Has anyone ever set themselves up for as many falls off of his high horse as Obama? Maybe Bill at the start, but he was highly adaptable to changing political circumstances (clumsily enacted policy turnarounds don't count for proof, libuhrals) while Obama ain't, so just sit back, and enjoy the show.
mark|3.17.09 @ 5:57PM|#
What
did we learn on NPR this morning? Talking about genocide is
bad. Doing something about it is even worse.
It appears that in response to the ICC's issuing of an arrest
warrant for Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir, the country has
expelled all foreign NGO's, including Doctors Without
Borders.
From the program:
Joel Charny of the advocacy group Refugees International says one way to look at the expulsion of aid workers is to picture the displaced camps in Darfur as large towns. Then think about what would happen if the towns' biggest hospitals were closed and the water system contaminated. That's basically what is happening in the Kalma camp in Darfur, Charny says, where there is now fear of a meningitis outbreak. "The estimate is that 100,000 people need to be vaccinated, and that's in Kalma camp and one other camp," he says.
I'm sure the Obama administration is right on top of this
one.
Jerry Fowler, who runs the Save Darfur Coalition, is also waiting to see the White House act.
"Why is there a disconnect between how passionately and articulately candidate Obama addressed the issue of Darfur and said that the genocide there is a stain on our souls - and what President Obama is doing and saying now with millions of lives at stake?" Fowler says. "We need presidential engagement and we need it now."
The irony is that in order to avert a horrible humanitarian crisis
in Darfur, the Obama administration will probably have to stop
pressuring al-Bashir. After all, it's not like China will do
anything in Sudan other than extract oil.
Skeleton|3.17.09 @ 6:36PM|#
I went to law school with Samantha Power. She was pretty cool back then.
Markets Are Magical|3.17.09 @ 6:36PM|#
"Has anyone ever set themselves up for as many falls off of his
high horse as Obama?"
Son, when someone doesn't simply sit behind a computer most of the
day, and snark as a form of political activism, then tough
decisions often come with great risk.
It's the primary difference between people who actually do things,
and people like you.
However, it's quite enjoyable to watch the fledgling Libertarian
culture that was flirted with for a bit during an economic upswing,
implode before your very eyes. Your kissing cousins in the
Republican party are feeling the chill as well. Both of you should
just fuck each other like you've always wanted to, and enjoy the
company.
Just so you know, you guys almost won me over. This blog did a lot
to expose me to the reality that Libertarians really don't know
what the hell they're talking about a lot of the time.
Reading the posts on here is like eavesdropping on a group of
jilted fat girls.
Thank you, but no.
|3.17.09 @ 6:50PM|#
It's times like these I actually miss joe.
Joe would tell us that it is Bush's fault and that the Armenians
deserved it.
|3.17.09 @ 7:06PM|#
However, it's quite enjoyable to watch the fledgling
Libertarian culture that was flirted with for a bit during an
economic upswing, implode before your very eyes.
Libertarians have been imploding far to long to be called
fledgling.
Just so you know, you guys almost won me over. This blog did a
lot to expose me to the reality that Libertarians really don't know
what the hell they're talking about a lot of the time.
I know I base my political beliefs on how much I like anonymous
blog posters who are fucking off during work hours.
"Has anyone ever set themselves up for as many falls off of his
high horse as Obama?"
Son, when someone doesn't simply sit behind a computer most of the
day, and snark as a form of political activism, then tough
decisions often come with great risk.
Did the big bad libertarian say mean things about your perfect
president?
boo hoo and whaaaaaa.
Lefiti|3.17.09 @ 7:17PM|#
Markets Are Magical's post just got the back of my shorts moist. How would you feel about a man on man space docking?
Jennifer|3.17.09 @ 7:52PM|#
Actual conversation between a historian and his adorable
towheaded little son, circa 2115:
SON: Daddy, when did the United States stop being a superpower and
start being the worldwide laughingstock it is today?
HISTORIAN: Now, son, your mother and I have told you that no
decline and fall can be pinpointed to a single instant. But if you
insist, I'd say it was the moment the United States realized it
desperately needed to kiss Turkey's ass.
(I found this a lot more amusing when G.W. Bush was the one sucking
up to the Turks, because his followers were more likely to
subscribe to the "Mighty America" meme.)
|3.17.09 @ 8:18PM|#
"the country has expelled all foreign NGO's, including Doctors
Without Borders."
when I instigate my Geo-Libertarian African revolution*
those French fuckers will be the first people kicked out
neo-marxist wankers
*On the to do list a few places after learnin to play
Coltraine´s "a love supreme" on the Banjo
|3.17.09 @ 8:32PM|#
On the Armenia thing
let's look at it rationally
It only became an issue as
1) The Bush administration wanted to help Turkey get in in the EU
in return for strategic help in the region notably with its
neighbor Iraq
2) Loads of EU nations are racist fucks who hate Muslims
3) The aforementioned racist fuckwit nations, passed a law
acknowledging the Turkish massacre to try to ruin Turkey's chances
of gettin in the EU.
(even though these countries have taken part in some of the biggest
masacres in human history
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_War_of_Independence#Battle_of_Algiers)
4) Uber-whore Nancy Pelosi thought it would be a good idea also to
officially acknowledge the massacre, as it would destablize
American relations with Turkey at a time when the PKK were becoming
active.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PKK#1999-current
Further destabilzing Iraq
which would help swell up further discontent in the USA
and secure a Democrat victory
Man I fucking hate democrats
far more than Republicans nowadays
|3.17.09 @ 9:59PM|#
It only became an issue as
1) The Bush administration wanted to help Turkey get in in the EU in return for strategic help in the region notably with its neighbor Iraq
It was an issue DECADES before that. You might think genocide is
something only liberals care about, but it's a very serious issue.
Just because the Ataturk was slightly less efficient than Hitler
doesn't absolve him of his crimes.
No, there's nothing we can do about it now. But refusing to call a
genocide a genocide just makes the next atrocity that much easier
to commit.
|3.17.09 @ 10:00PM|#
Until the 1rst Genocide of 1.5 million Christians at the hands
of Ottoman Turks is not recognized, this issue will continue to
come up.
Also to answer how big is the Armenian-American vote in the US,
creech they are active voters, although not large in numbers, ~1
million Americans who say they are of Armenian descent, they do
vote in large numbers.
PopCornTime|3.17.09 @ 10:33PM|#
However, it's quite enjoyable to watch the fledgling
Libertarian culture that was flirted with for a bit during an
economic upswing, implode before your very eyes. Your kissing
cousins in the Republican party are feeling the chill as well. Both
of you should just fuck each other like you've always wanted to,
and enjoy the company.
Just so you know, you guys almost won me over. This blog did a lot
to expose me to the reality that Libertarians really don't know
what the hell they're talking about a lot of the time.
Munch Munch Munch
Slurp
Munch
Belch
Keep the movie rolling!
Don't let that feeling of nervousness and desperation overwhelm
you, libuhrals. That inner knowledge that this is the absolute last
chance you will ever have to do things your way, and knowing doing
things your way is your path to self destruction, keep the movie
rolling.
Don't disappoint me now, I paid top dollar for these tickets.
PopCornTime|3.17.09 @ 11:11PM|#
Your kissing cousins in the Republican party are feeling the
chill as well.
I admit to raving at the Republicans over every stupid thing they
did during W's reign, every time they played nice with the
Religious right, got footsy with the Democrat (did you just twitch?
You hate that don't ya? You betcha!) elite that runs Wall Street,
plopped us into nonsensical conflicts in the world's biggest basket
case, the Middle East, but criticizing the Republicans always felt
like a chore, like having to tell your gramps in the old folk's
home to eat his vegetables.
However, criticizing libuhrals. Damn. Now that is nothing but a
complete joy. Do you know why? Because you are all full of shit,
and completely full of your selves.
Hey, if you are still around Markets Are Magical I dare you to
reread what you wrote and not be embarrassed by the sophomoric
rhetorical technique and the asinine commentary you decided would
be a great way to unload on me when all you could do was elicit the
exact response that I wanted. And why was that? T
he reality of your situation is you may count yourself copacetic
and aligned with the powers that be, but you are just another fool
teetering on the side of the bandwagon.
Anyway, don't let me stop you, I know there is no chance of that,
you are literally programmed to respond the way you do. On with the
show! This is it!
TallDave|3.18.09 @ 1:00AM|#
People say Obama is unprincipled, but it's not true. Barack Obama is totally committed to the principle of doing whatever is politically expedient for Barack Obama.
jtuf|3.18.09 @ 5:37AM|#
I've heard the argument that historical facts should be debated and documented by historians, not congress. I can respect that viewpoint. Obama's real politics on this topic are another matter entirely. He set a dangerous precedent by making a campaign issue over the Armenian genocide and then backing off. He's basically showing that if a country has something we want, America will turn a blind eye to genocide to keep relations strong.
jtuf|3.18.09 @ 5:39AM|#
Regarding Darfur, it will be depressing to watch global leaders wag their fingers and then sit quietly and do nothing. At the very least, the US should grant assylum and citizenship to all the Darfur refugees.
MJ|3.18.09 @ 7:30AM|#
""Son, when someone doesn't simply sit behind a computer most of
the day, and snark as a form of political activism, then tough
decisions often come with great risk."
I guess then that we should not have elected a man who's political
career consisted of snarking from the sidelines and not having made
any tough decisions before landing the top job.
Your analysis may be correct, but that means Obama was
irresponsible to say he was going to change the official US
position on this during the campaign.
|3.18.09 @ 2:46PM|#
As a Turk i feel horrible about what happened in 1915.
But you need to empathize with how I feel. You dont have to accept
it but you have to empathize. I feel that Turks in 1915 were scared
of being annihilated, and I feel that many Armenian's would love to
see me murdered. If you feel that I am being melodramatic tough! It
is a sincere feeling and you need to try and learn some things so
as to understand how I feel.
With that said, understand I will do anything I can to help myself
and my native country and peoples. That is how all Turks feel.
Turkey is in a very strategic place and is VERY important. In fact
I dont think you understand how important. Do you think Obama is
changing his prior promises over petty things? NO. So get used to
it. I think I can speak for most Turks in saying we will create big
mess for America if they assist Armenian's with the revenge plots.
Don't be so arrogant to think that America can do whatever it wants
and throw mud in anyone's face it chooses. If you do that the cold
water thrown in its face will be a wake up to a sobering
reality.
|3.18.09 @ 2:58PM|#
I just love how some people say that Turkey is a loyal ally.
Notice that Turkey is the only member of NATO that regularly
*threatens* the US with all sorts of retaliation, and not just on
the Armenian issue. With allies like that, who needs friends?
As to needing Turkey for US troops and equipment to exit Iraq,
think about it: They can leave the same way they got it: land, sea,
and air. There is no problem there. The US does not need to kiss
Turkey's you-know-what.
|3.18.09 @ 6:36PM|#
There is a difference from being an ally and being a tool.
International relations is based on quid pro quos. Implying that
Turkish policies are in any way against America is absurd. Why
would Clinton and Obama visit a antagonistic country. Turkey IS
America's Ally which is why she feels obliged some courtesy and
respect.
The events on 1915 were horrible but as a Turk I can not trust the
motives of the Armenian lobby. I have seen to much vitriolic anger
from some of their associates to not feel threatened. I think some
of them mean harm and some even homicidal. I don't think that any
Turks should loose their life, liberty, or property. All of which
some Armenians wish to take. You may feel otherwise but Turks have
the right to defend themselves.
|3.18.09 @ 6:47PM|#
I want to say how much I love Obama. Yes I think he feels in his
heart that the events of 1915 were genocide. But I also feel that
he knows what America did the the Native Americans is also
genocide. What Spain did as well to the Native Americans. He also
knows about Africa and all of the atrocities their. And all of the
countless other crimes.
Maybe he feels the hypocrisy in America judging the crimes of
another regime.
A defunct regime at that. Let's not forget the same government that
committed genocide against the Native Americans is still the same
government that is in power. That is not the case with Turkey.
Jay|3.19.09 @ 7:10AM|#
THIS IS TO "K"
"But you need to empathize with how I feel. You dont have to accept
it but you have to empathize. I feel that Turks in 1915 were scared
of being annihilated, and I feel that many Armenian's would love to
see me murdered. If you feel that I am being melodramatic tough! It
is a sincere feeling and you need to try and learn some things so
as to understand how I feel. "
^
|--That must have been some of the worst appologetic piece of crap
I have ever heard. You simply sound like a Neo-Nazi, or in this
case a Neo-YoungTurk. You have ZERO PROOF that Armenians were a
threat to Turks. This is akin to Neo-Nazis stating that Jews were
trying to revolt and therefore those killings are justified. I pity
you.
|3.19.09 @ 9:55AM|#
So now Obama is getting criticized for not being an overly sensitive Chomskyite lefty? That's what Reason has come to? You can't single out the Turks for "genocide" while the Belgians get a free pass for their much worse behavior in the Congo, the Chinese get a pass for Tibet and Xinjiang, the Israelis get a pass for occupying a part of Ottoman Palestine and calling it their home, the Russians get a pass for killing off half of Kazakhstan and Ukraine, the Americans get a pass for wiping out the indigenous population of North America, and on and on. Good for Obama for not kowtowing to the Armenian-American lobby. It's not America's business to worry about historical crimes committed against people who were not American citizens - it's simply not.
|3.19.09 @ 10:01AM|#
I also wonder how many people like Jay are aware that Turkey was at war with Russia in 1915, and the Armenian population in Eastern Asia Minor largely sympathized with Russia. This threat was not a crazy figment of Turkish imagination, even if Turks did respond to the threat of Armenian separatists in an barbaric cruel way. What makes the Turkish crimes against the Armenians noteworthy is the crude stupidity of the modern Turkish government in continuing to stonewall about the events of 1915. The Turks are only hurting themselves. Still, it's galling for ignorant Americans who know nothing about Russia and Turkey to try to lecture Turks about "genocide."
|3.19.09 @ 6:23PM|#
K,
Congratulations for turning water into wine! Turks are threatened
by Armenians! HA! Let's see, there's 75,000,000 of you, and uh, at
most 3,000,000 Armenians next door to you. You have almost as many
soldiers as Armenia has people. And you feel threatened? By a
people your ancestors almost completely erased from this earth? Who
are you kidding? This blog, although clearly not Mensa territory,
is not full of romp-a-room students either. Your ancestors erased
all trace of Armenians from their historical homeland on which they
had lived for almost 3 millenia until your ancestors got an itch up
their ass to kill off the brains of their country. And now you're
whining about feeling threatened by Armenians.
My great-grandgrandfather and six of his sons fought and died for
the Ottoman Empire just like thousands of other Armenians who
fought and died for their country, the Ottoman Empire. The fact
that there were also Armenians living in Russia and fighting for
their country, Russia, is no excuse for committing Genocide. Learn
your history and stop acting like a whiney fat chick who just sat
on her cat!
|3.19.09 @ 6:35PM|#
Vanya,
So, let's see, you don't want Obama kowtowing to Armenian-AMERICANS
who are as the hyphenation suggests, AMERICANS. You'd rather have
the President of the United States of F'ing America kowtowing to a
foreign country knowing full well what the truth is. In other
words, you think that the President of the United States of F'ing
America should lie about Genocide because Turkey, which BTW lives
off the good graces of American taxpayers, tells him to. Have you
no f'ing pride?
|3.19.09 @ 8:26PM|#
Hmmm if the two choices are between..my ancestors being
marginalized or annihilated, and hence me not existing, and people
calling me a "a whiney fat chick" i pick the latter. If Turks did
nothing Turkey would be like Iraq, Iran, maybe even Afghanistan. If
being called names is the price for that not happening, so be it.
Honestly I don't feel proud about what happened. It's something
that bothers me all the time!
Seriously, someone was going to eat a shit sandwich in 1915. If
Turks hand done nothing it would have been them.
|3.19.09 @ 8:34PM|#
If you dont think Turks were threatened in 1915look at this
map:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/TreatyOfSevres_(corrected).PNG/300px-TreatyOfSevres_(corrected).PNG
It speaks a 1000 words. The Treaty of Lausanne was an explicit
threat to Turkey.
And if you do not think Turks are threatened today by some
Armenians... all i have to say is ASALA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Secret_Army_for_the_Liberation_of_Armenia)
|3.19.09 @ 8:38PM|#
Im sorry it was the Treaty of Serves that aimed to balkanize
Turkey. Not Treaty of Lausanne.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_S%C3%A8vres
|3.19.09 @ 9:02PM|#
Since when is Samantha Power, the thirty-something, redhead
bimbo considered to be a "foreign policy guru?" NUTS!
Samantha Power is on the payroll of the hate-mongering, slick and
odious Armenian lobby. She is a mouthpiece hired to perpetuate the
obscene Armenian canard.
|3.20.09 @ 1:01AM|#
K,
ASALA hasn't touched a Turkish hair in over 25 years and does not
even exist as an organized group today. And guess why? Because the
vast majority of Armenians were against what they were doing.
Now for 1915. Earth to K, none of what you state is an excuse to
commit Genocide. Not to mention, do you really believe the Turkish
world would have come to an end if your ancestors hadn't raped and
murdered all of the innocent women, children and elderly who were
left after the Armenian men were conscripted into the Army and
shot? Even if a nation is at risk of being splintered, one does not
resort to GENOCIDE to preserve that nation. No gain is worth the
price of Genocide. Why is this so hard for the majority of Turks to
understand?
Bill|3.22.09 @ 4:08PM|#
This is ridiculous. How uninformed can some people be?
PELOSI's bill? I don't care if Pelosi wrote it all herself, that's
just not true.
The vast majority of armenians I know (and I know
many...Church/family/politicians) believe in the American dream and
free market principles. How about the many donations to both
parties? How about the former governor of Cali? Or Bob Dole, a very
real supporter of armenia. Look it up.
Not the foggiest on Barr's position, but I recall a strong
statement from McCain in support of Armenia.
They really do love this country.
Some of these posters are just brainwashed.
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