Ceci n'est pas une Analogy

Over at Harvard's Olin Center Middle East Strategy blog, Brookings Institution scholar Daniel Byman is puzzled by Israel's endgame strategy (if one exists) in its ground operation in the Gaza Strip. Amongst most mainstream commenters, there is little doubt as to whether or not Israel is morally justified in defending its citizens from Hamas rockets attacks—there is the issue of proportionality, of course, and more on that below—but it's an open issue as to whether or not its military response will further radicalize and already radical population. As Byman says, "Part of Israel's lesson from its war in Lebanon in 2006 and its withdrawals from Gaza in 2005 and before that in Lebanon in 2000 was that it did not hit back hard enough when provoked. Israel seeks to restore fear in its deterrent capabilities."

It is undeniable that as civilian casualties mount, Hamas, whose leadership frequently explains to those listening that it "loves death more than Israel loves life," understands that a steady stream of gruesome news footage will likely translate into even more support (hence the launching of rockets from civilian areas, the wiring of schools with explosives, etc). As one Gaza resident told Dutch radio, the people are, at this point, pretty united in their support of Hamas because "[Palestinian President Mahmoud] Abbas only talks, but does not take any initiative. Hamas is now the leader in opposition to Israel." As Byman points out, "If the world and most Palestinians come away convinced that Hamas won, then Hamas will simply recruit more, and its overall stature will increase. In addition, a perceived Hamas victory would further weaken the stature of moderates like Abbas and Fayyad, who look feckless as Israeli bombs kill Palestinians. This could ultimately lead to exactly the result that Israelis fear most: a Hamas take-over in the West Bank."

But back to the issue of a proportional response, which has been debated far and wide since the beginning (or, I should say, the latest phase) of the Hamas-Israel conflict, so there is little point in revisiting the arguments here. But just yesterday, the ubiquitous and omniscient lefty blogger Matt Yglesias decided to break it down for his readers using this simple analogy:

One time when I was riding my bike, someone threw a smallish rock at me from a housing project across the street. As it happens, the kid didn't hit me and everything was fine. But I suppose if he'd hit me in just the right way I could have been knocked down and injured. And depending on what the cars on the road were doing, it's conceivable that I could have wound up being run over and terribly injured. Long story short, it was a pretty terrible thing for the thrower to be doing. And this has been a sporadic problem in the city for a while. But obviously it wouldn't have bene (sic) right for me to stop, get off my bike, pull a bazooka out of my bag, and blow the houses from which the rock emanated to smithereens while shouting "self-defense!" and "double-effect!" And had I done so, and killed some innocent people in the course of things, and then I'd tried to say that the real blame for the deaths lay with the rock-thrower who'd started it everyone would look at me like I was crazy.

Now, having visited Sderot last year (where, incidentally, I spent the day with an Israeli peacenik), I have an enormous amount of sympathy for those hyperventilating bicyclists of Southern Israel, and I am obviously quite hostile to an illiberal political movement that hates dancing, gays, and dancing gays. But leaving that aside, lets fine-tune Yglesias's analogy: Imagine if Matt rode his bike by this project every day—and was attacked with rocks everyday. And imagine that the rock thrower was attempting to obtain bigger and more deadly rocks to target him and his Dalton School classmates. And imagine if the rock-thrower organized everyone in his project to, say, write a charter that demanded the liquidation of Dalton and its students. And one day, rather than tossing the requisite rock, the young project-dweller decided to kidnap Matt for a few years. And so on.

But I'm making a spurious argument, after all, because as Yglesias explains in the same post, he doesn't "believe in analogies, so don't read that as one." We won't.

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  • Ska||

    So it really is a pipe! I thought so!

  • ||

    But leaving that aside, lets fine-tune Yglesias's analogy: Imagine if Matt rode his bike by this project everyday-and was attacked with rocks everyday. And imagine that the rock thrower was attempting to obtain bigger and more deadly rocks to target him and his Dalton School classmates. And imagine if the rock-thrower organized everyone in his project to, say, write a charter that demanded the liquidation of Dalton and its students. And one day, rather than tossing the requisite rock, the young project-dweller decided to kidnap Matt for a few years. And so on.

    Well, then, obviously, it would be appropriate for Yglesias to fire bazooka rounds into the apartment complex, regardless of the civilians deaths.

    Can we make this even more like the Gaza operation, and postulate that even more rocks start flying out once the bazooka fire begins?

  • ||

    The problem isn't that Abbas only talks it's that he doesn't get anything in exchange for talking. Quick question: In which area did Israel pull out their settlements and give relative autonomy? Abbas' West Bank or Hamas' Gaza. Which wheel is getting the grease, squeaky Hamas or quiet Abbas? In other words, if Israel wants the relatively peaceful Abbas to gain stature, it's going to need to give him some carrot while it gives Hamas the stick, otherwise the Palestinians will see that only violence gets you anything.

  • MAX HATS||

    The Palestinians are in a situation where a government is allowed to do things to them (Israel) but they have no say over it. Their own "government" is completely nonviable - there is no Palestinian state in any sense of the word. And every year, their territory gets smaller, they get poorer, and random lunatics from Israel steal various plots of land in illegal settlements that the Israeli government rarely if ever addresses. Put yourself in the shoes of a Palestinian civilian. What's the endgame?

  • ||

    I don't believe in Yglesiases.

  • ||

    Hamas is not a little kid throwing rocks at passing cyclists. Hamas is a grown man throwing rocks at passing cyclists. Morever, Hama is a grown man throwing rocks from behind the cover of his wife and kids. While pulling out a bazooka is still not a proportional response, it's clear that such men are not the type to listen to diplomacy.

  • Reinmoose||

    Everyday:
    Main Entry: ev·ery·day
    Pronunciation: \ˈev-rē-ˌdā, ˌev-re-ˈ\
    Function: adjective
    Date: circa 1623
    : encountered or used routinely or typically : ordinary

  • PantsFan||

    I'm looking forward to a rational discussion that avoids all hyperbole and resolves the issue once and for all.

  • Wilhuff Tarkin||

    Israel seeks to restore fear in its deterrent capabilities.

    [Nods in agreement]

  • ||

    I have decreed that ONLY Jesse Walker is permitted to make mention of the Middle East.

  • The Angry Optimist||

    oh come on now! Someone decided to be ultra-insidery and write "Wilhuff" instead of "Grand Moff". I know we are a bunch of nerds, but we do have company from time to time...

  • ||

    When you find it, PantsFan, be sure to post the link.

  • ||

    Every fucking analogy should be banned in relation to the Middle East.

    Your not explaining a black hole and the space-time continuum. Humans have been hacking and smashing each other forever - IT AINT FUCKING ROCKET SCIENCE.

  • Reinmoose||

    Used in a sentence

    "Unlike my mother who uses her silver cutlery, I use everyday utensils even on Thanksgiving and Christmas."

    vs.

    "I love beans, hey hey hey!
    I love beans every day!
    Beans are an excellent source of protein.
    I love beans, dinky-doo! "

    PS: Thank you for fixing one of the two offenses.

  • ||

    Every fucking analogy should be banned in relation to the Middle East...IT AINT FUCKING ROCKET SCIENCE.

    Ooh.

    Unfortunate choice of words. Should have taken your own advice with that one.

  • Jesse Walker||

    Someone should write a really detailed analogy in which none of the kids are allowed to leave the block, the children's grandparents used to live in the bicyclist's house, and the playground is split into preadolescent factions that hate each other more than they hate the bicyclists.

  • T||

    Wait, I'm still parsing the analogy from a guy who doesn't believe in analogies. WTF am I supposed to read it as, a simile? A metaphor? Or can I just continuing dismissing Yglesias as an overeducated underthinking tool and go about my day?

    Yeah, that last one works. No analogies necessary, either.

  • Bill Donahue||

    Hollywood is run by bicyclists who hate Christianity and love anal sex.

  • ||

    "And imagine if the rock-thrower organized everyone in his project to, say, write a charter that demanded the liquidation of Dalton and its students."

    But, see, this is where your analogy (or whatever you want to call it) fails, Michael. "Everyone in the project" didn't sign any charter, and even if they did, it was nothing more than meaningless posturing. The rock-throwers are guilty of rock throwing; their friends and families and neighbors are not. Unless you think the people of a region can collectively be held responsible for the violence of its nominal leaders, in which case I'd like to hear your revised opinion on 9/11.

  • The Angry Optimist||

    Attempting to parse individual guilt in these matters is a fool's errand, Mike. I think we have too strong a tendency to judge people based on legal guilt rather than moral guilt. If the "friends, neighbors and family members" passively or actively aided the ones launching rockets, then moral guilt is appropriate.

    I want it noted that I am not advocating that a military response of this nature is appropriate, just pointing out that being parsimonious in matters of war is pretty weak sauce.

  • ||

    "Attempting to parse individual guilt in these matters is a fool's errand, Mike."

    Nonsense. Everyone's guilty and nobody is?

    "I think we have too strong a tendency to judge people based on legal guilt rather than moral guilt. If the "friends, neighbors and family members" passively or actively aided the ones launching rockets, then moral guilt is appropriate."

    Moral guilt, maybe. But moral guilt does not constitute a justification for killing someone. That would have to be a rights violation. Waving a big flag and hating Israelis is not a rights violation, even if is it ignorant.

  • The Angry Optimist||

    Nonsense. Everyone's guilty and nobody is?


    Well, no, not exactly, but short of capturing every potential combatant and having a trial with full due process of the courts, what would you suggest?

    And I agree that it should not be a justification for killing someone and I think that the military response here is inappropriate and a strategic error, but if Israel is, in fact, justified in going after Hamas "root and branch", I am hard-pressed to see how they are going to do that and still ponder whether the group of people from whom a rocket originated were all involved with the launching of said rocket.

  • classwarrior||

    Imagine if the bicyclist had previously seized other apartments owned by the rock thrower and occupied them, leaving him with only one unit (the smallest and crappiest of course). To add insult to injury, the cyclist carefully controls the delivery of necessities to that apartment, cutting them off whenever the mood suites. And controls who else may enter or leave the apartment, and proclaims that ownership remaining apartment is "disputed" and our rock thrower may have to settle for a portion that depends on the good will of the cyclist. I guess that's why the 2nd Ammendment was put into the Constitution.

  • ||

    "Well, no, not exactly, but short of capturing every potential combatant and having a trial with full due process of the courts, what would you suggest?"

    Why does it have to be short of that? I'm not even sure *that* would be justified if they don't have sufficient evidence up front.

    "And I agree that it should not be a justification for killing someone and I think that the military response here is inappropriate and a strategic error, but if Israel is, in fact, justified in going after Hamas "root and branch", I am hard-pressed to see how they are going to do that and still ponder whether the group of people from whom a rocket originated were all involved with the launching of said rocket."

    There's a difference between being having a justifiable goal (eliminating Hamas) and using justifiable means (say, not murdering innocent people). If your justifiable goal can only be accomplished through unjust means, I think you have to abandon your goal. Israel has no right to use the lives of innocent Palestinians to eliminate Hamas, deplorable as Hamas may be.

  • ||

    "Can we make this even more like the Gaza operation, and postulate that even more rocks start flying out once the bazooka fire begins?"

    Eventually the rocks do stop -- viz. Germany, May, 1945.

    Plus the question is factually incorrect on two grounds: 1. Fewer rockets (rocks) are fired as each day of the operation passes and 2. As a thought experiment envision the situation if no rockets ever flew?

  • ||

    I'm all for criticizing Yglesias, but this article takes Yglesias' rather lame analogy and makes it far worse. There's a reason why Yglesias can make glib analogies while you cannot; it's called a death toll. Justifying the deaths of scores of civilians by analogy (particularly incorrect analogy) is stupid and callous. If you think it's ok to wipe out Gaza because "the rock-thrower organized everyone in his project", that's fine, but realize that you sound like Charles Krauthammer off his meds.

    In addition, trying to score cheap points by bringing up Dalton school is weak tea. We can't all be Amherst men, either.

  • ||

    "The towers were supposed to be filled with supporters of the economical powers of the United States who are abusing the world.

    Those who talk about civilians should change their stand and reconsider their position. We are treating them like they treated us."

    Bin Laden goes on to justify his entire terror campaign. "There are two types of terror, good and bad. What we are practising is good terror. We will not stop killing them and whoever supports them."

    He directly threatens the lives of President Bush and Mr Blair. "Bush and Blair don't understand anything but the power of force. Every time they kill us, we kill them, so the balance of terror can be achieved."

  • ||

    Mark,

    Do they?

    It's always the same people who talk about Red Dawn, who assert that the other guy is just going to get beaten down and get tired.

    How do you yell "Wolverines!" in Arabic?

  • The Angry Optimist||

    ooh, I didn't know that OBL was a Star Trek Fan.

    Wonder how come he's never at the conventions...

  • ||

    1. Fewer rockets (rocks) are fired as each day of the operation passes Really? Are they down to where they were before the invasion began?

    and 2. As a thought experiment envision the situation if no rockets ever flew?

    Funny how different people set the beginning of this fight at different point. Should "rockets" include all of those launched by Israel into Palestinian territories? Because, IIRC, the first rockets flew in the 1970s. Before that, it was artillery, bullets, and tank rounds.

    "He started it" gets us nowhere.

  • ||

    muzzies are some of the most uncivilized savages on our planet and deserved to be killed when the raise their ugly heads.there is no west bank that is a name made up by pedophile mohammadans it's real name is Judea and Samaria.there are no palistians they are the same as those murdering fanatics in egypt or jordan which is a good place for them to go.i hope isreal kicks the muzzies out of gaza and judea.

  • Dennis Miller||

    oh come on now! Someone decided to be ultra-insidery and write "Wilhuff" instead of "Grand Moff". I know we are a bunch of nerds, but we do have company from time to time...

    [Shakes head in disagreement]

  • Troll cop||

    bruce:
    2/10. bonus points for the bad grammar. now go away and let the grownups talk a bit.

  • ||

    "Associate Editor Michael C. Moynihan is traveling though Israel on a program sponsored by the American Israel Education Fund, a travel program for journalists sponsored by the American Israel Public Affairs Committee."

    Moynihan should be required to post this disclaimer every time he writes about Israel.

  • Tacos mmm...||

    Hamas is not a little kid throwing rocks at passing cyclists. Hamas is a grown man throwing rocks at passing cyclists. Morever, Hama is a grown man throwing rocks from behind the cover of his wife and kids. While pulling out a bazooka is still not a proportional response, it's clear that such men are not the type to listen to diplomacy.



    Well, yes. A smart response would then be not to deal with the crazy rock thrower, but with his neighbors, who are not lunatics. They know who the guy is, and can put an end to his rock throwing if they like.

    However, if you fire a bazooka into the housing complex and kill a few innocent people, you're not going to engender much support for your campaign to end the rock throwing from the people you need to get it to stop.

    In other words, the only way to put an end to Hamas is to put an end to Palestinian support for Hamas. Is this military campaign going to do that? No? Then it's horrific and pointless waste of life.

  • ||

    I don't understand why Yglesias used a kid rather than a warm, fuzzy puppy in his non-analogy.

  • ||

    The error here is to compare rock throwing with bazookas, when Hamas is not throwing rocks, they're firing explosive rockets. It is 100% appropropriate to respond to deadly force with deadly force. In fact, it is imperative to respond with deadlier force. Is it wrong to shoot somebody who is beating you with his fists, on the basis that it would be "disproportionate"? "Proportional response" is the cry of the morally bankrupt and the hypocrite.

    As for alleged civilian deaths,
    a) Letting combatants use your house to launch attacks, plan attacks, or take refuge, giving them material support of any kind, or interposing yourself in front of them, makes you a combatant, not a civilian, whether you are an adult or are armed
    b) Since Hamas operatives intentionally eschew uniforms, you have no reason to suppose that what you see are in fact civilians
    c) How can you trust the same people that are pushing doctored and staged photographs on the newswires to give you truthful casualty statistics?

  • ||

    "When goods don't cross borders, soldiers will"

    Adam Smith

  • Underzog||

    What the head poster and the eliminationist anti-Semites among us don't realize is that hamas firing those rockets into Israel is a war crime.

    Also, Hamas hiding behind civilians and firing from them is also war crime.

    While one creature says we should not ask who started it, at least Ayn Rand (whom the Libertarians parasitize off of) recognizes the difference between the initiator or force and those who don't want to be killed or beaten upon and take actions to stop it.

    The head poster, Michael Monyihan, does not understand what proportionality means and none of them understand Israel is entitled under International Law to hit military targets even if they use civilians to hide behind.

    In another article, Reason Magazine snickered that Joe the Plumber was going to be a journalist over in the Mid East. He would certainly do a better job than a Libertarian movement that was exposed by Objectivist Peter Schwarz as hating Israel and supporting its destruction.

    After Peter Schwarz published his landmark article on Lbertarianism, he noted that "Reason" magazine tried to soft pedal the lunatic views of the Libertarian party; e.g., child molestation, destruction of Israel -- but that is not the way to do it. One should repudiate the evil crazies in your midst. Something "Reason" magazine lacks the morality to do.

  • Underzog||

  • Underzog||

  • EJM||

    I'm just waiting for Underzog to tear into someone like Max Boot for not being supportive enough of Israel's actions. Come to think about it, Underzog never answered my earlier query concerning David Rothkopf and Daniel Drezner.

    (Full disclosure: I plugged this recent post by Mr. Boot in an earlier comment.)

  • ||

    "a) Letting combatants use your house to launch attacks, plan attacks, or take refuge, giving them material support of any kind, or interposing yourself in front of them, makes you a combatant, not a civilian, whether you are an adult or are armed"

    Children are supposed to exert control over how their houses are used? Really??

    "b) Since Hamas operatives intentionally eschew uniforms, you have no reason to suppose that what you see are in fact civilians"

    Since Hamas has been known to infiltrate Israel, you also have no reason to suppose that any random Israeli is not actually Hamas. Sounds like suspicion enough to me!

    "c) How can you trust the same people that are pushing doctored and staged photographs on the newswires to give you truthful casualty statistics?"

    No one's asking you to trust anyone. You realize that there are more than, like, 4 people in Gaza right?

  • Underzog||

    "This year [5767] Islam and Judaism's holiest holidays overlapped for 10 days. Muslims racked up 397 dead bodies in 94 terror attacks across 10 countries during this time... while Jews worked on their 159th Nobel Prize"

    "There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"

  • Tacos mmm...||

    Letting combatants use your house to launch attacks, plan attacks, or take refuge, giving them material support of any kind, or interposing yourself in front of them, makes you a combatant, not a civilian, whether you are an adult or are armed



    Urban combat. We're not talking about houses surrounded by flowing 30 acre lawns. We're talking about squalid flats where one room may be occupied by a sniper, and three doors down, you have a family of four.

    And if the guy with the machine gun wants to use YOUR flat, what do you say?

    Since Hamas operatives intentionally eschew uniforms, you have no reason to suppose that what you see are in fact civilians



    So kill them all. God will know his own.

    How can you trust the same people that are pushing doctored and staged photographs on the newswires to give you truthful casualty statistics?



    All evidence that makes me look bad is a lie.

  • cuernimus||

    muzzies are some of the most troll tra troll troll


    Huh?

  • Tacos mmm...||

    This year [5767] Islam and Judaism's holiest holidays overlapped for 10 days. Muslims racked up 397 dead bodies in 94 terror attacks across 10 countries during this time... while Jews worked on their 159th Nobel Prize



    I wasn't aware that it took several million people to win a Nobel prize.

    In any case, this sounds like something you'd see on any white separatist site, except it would be talking about how white people invented penicillin or the transistor while black people have an HIV infection rate that is twice the national average.

    You get the impression that it's a way for people who are failures as individuals to feel a little better about themselves - taking a little credit for things they never did, disparaging others.

  • Underzog||

    Even if Israel were killing the civilians as the anti-Semites say the are, I don't see what all the fuss is about.

    Don't all these savages say they want to be shahids (martyrs) who when they die get their 72 white raisins, virgins (whatever)?

    Isn't death groovy like drinking coca cola to these creeps?

    What are they complaining about?

    Since they're such a deathcult, they should be thanking the Israelis for any of these deathcult savages that they do happen to kill (snicker).

    Incidentally, Israel should not withdraw or give land to these deathcult savages. They'll only get death rockets in return. All of this is simple rationality and logic, but "Reason magazine" is obscenly misnamed and this periodical will just not get it.

  • ||

    Israel's endgame is stage 4, full military occupation and destruction of Hamas sovereignty. I think that Olmert has had this goal in mind the whole time and is easing the world into this path.

  • Underzog||

    Hey Taco, Islam is not a race it's a deathcult.

  • ||

    Already fighting too much with friends and family over this Gaza massacre so I'll just ask, "Who's seen this?"

  • Tacos mmm...||

    Incidentally, Israel should not withdraw or give land to these deathcult savages. They'll only get death rockets in return. All of this is simple rationality and logic, but "Reason magazine" is obscenly misnamed and this periodical will just not get it.



    Dammit, I'm drunk enough already.

  • Underzog||

    "They're savages. They stole our oil and try to murder us with it."

    Ayn Rand's comments in her last appearance on the Phil Donahue show in reference to the Iranian hostage crises

  • ||

    I already knew Liberals think like children, but apparently a good portion of liberterians choice to turn of their minds as well:

    Hamas is responsible for 100% of civilian causalities in this conflict, since they started it, and can easily end it tomorrow if they agree to stop attacking Israel. There are few wars this simple. Don't let them manipulate you emotionally.

    The Palestinians had a choice in Gaza: build a civilized country or fire rockets into their neighbor. Hamas chose the later. Since the population is brainwashed with hate-propaganda, most accept this absurd behavior. This conflict has an aggressors and a victim, this is not changed by the fact that the aggressor is less advanced than the victim. One party wants peace, one want to destroy the other.

    Proportionality does not mean someone stronger that is wrongfully attacked has to accept it. America destroyed Japan and Germany in WWII, even though only a few thousand American civilians were killed. If you hit a person the state does not respond "proportionally" and slap you back, they threw you in prison, and if you resist use all necessary force.

    Furthermore, The islamists are clearly abusing western sensitivity to civilian causalities. If we allow them to do this by rewarding them it only encourages the behavior. Why can't so many readers of a magazine called Reason apply logic?

    Smug Idiots like Yglesias clearly do not understand concepts like incentives or time inconsistency. Do the disciples of Adam Smith?

    I would be curious to know what liberals/estrogen-libertarians suggest Israel do. Negotiate with Hamas, who has the destruction of Israel as it's only purpose? For example why not split it down the middle, and destroy half of Israel? Remove the settlements from Gaza? (oh, I forgot). For the UN to Give Hamas more advanced weaponry to murder Israeli civilians in order to level the playing field?

  • ||

    Those Israelis sure seem edgy, huh? from the article:

    Mark Regev, an Israeli spokesman, said he hoped that calm would be restored and that a resumption of hostilities could be avoided. "This operation was in response to a Hamas intrusion of the quiet and we hope we won't see an escalation here," he said.

    Israeli military intelligence had issued warnings for weeks of plans by extremists to kidnap Israelis, either along the Gaza border or elsewhere in the world, in response to the assassination of a Hezbollah militant leader this year, which the Lebanese rebel organisation blamed on Israel.



    And, what exactly is an "intrusion of the quiet?" Does that mean I can shoot my neighbor when he plays that awful music late at night?


  • ||

    Peace, Tino? Hahahahaha!

    Keep drinking the Kool-Aid babe, I don't think you've stained your mouth the right shade yet.

  • ||

    "I would be curious to know what liberals/estrogen-libertarians suggest Israel do."

    Stop killing innocent people. It's pretty simple. Slaughter Hamas all you want, I don't care, but don't punish people for the crime of living next door to killers.

  • ||

    FWIW, I also think all the debate over "proportionality" is silly and misguided. I don't much care how proportional a response is to Hamas. It also seems like a sadistic way to justify murdering more innocents. "They killed 30 civilians, so as long as we only kill 29, we're the good guys!"

  • Underzog||

    "Stop killing innocent people...."

    The above is an example Joseph Goebbels turnspeak propaganda (enhanced into a "greater artform" by the Muslims).

    Turnspeak propaganda is the art of accusing your opposition of the odious things that you yourself are doing. The Arab/Muslim terrorists kill civilians, Jewish (their own also by stationing their war weapons amongst their population) and they have the chutzpah to accuse the Jews of the evil things they're doing to them.

    Still, one must look at the bright side of all the hatred of the Jews today (especially in the various "peace marches" where eliminationis anti-Semitic slogans are shouted and people are attacked).

    Anti-Semites go into a reall tizzy when Jews fight back. Maybe we can set their foam-at-the-mouth hysteria and set it to music.

  • ||

    "The above is an example Joseph Goebbels turnspeak propaganda (enhanced into a "greater artform" by the Muslims).

    Turnspeak propaganda is the art of accusing your opposition of the odious things that you yourself are doing. The Arab/Muslim terrorists kill civilians, Jewish (their own also by stationing their war weapons amongst their population) and they have the chutzpah to accuse the Jews of the evil things they're doing to them.

    Still, one must look at the bright side of all the hatred of the Jews today (especially in the various "peace marches" where eliminationis anti-Semitic slogans are shouted and people are attacked).

    Anti-Semites go into a reall tizzy when Jews fight back. Maybe we can set their foam-at-the-mouth hysteria and set it to music."

    What on earth are you rambling on about? I've never killed anyone. You want me to acknowledge that Hamas is awful? I think I've made that pretty clear throughout this thread, but sure, for your sake: Hamas sucks. They are a bunch of thugs and murderers, and Israel or anyone else had the right to stop them, using deadly force if necessary. But they still don't have the right to bombard Gaza in the hope that somehow, somewhere, some bad people will be killed in all the chaos.

    I'm not sure where the anti-Semitism accusations came from, since I don't think I've mentioned religion except for acknowledging that Hamas is anti-Semitic.

  • Tacos mmm...||


    Hamas is responsible for 100% of civilian causalities in this conflict, since they started it, and can easily end it tomorrow if they agree to stop attacking Israel. There are few wars this simple. Don't let them manipulate you emotionally.



    You seem to be unaware that Israel has been blockading Gaza since Hamas was elected. A blockade is most assuredly an act of war, and I guarantee that if a foreign nation blockaded the US, we would do a lot more than lob a few rockets.

    There's nothing simple about the middle east, just your reasoning.

    Why can't so many readers of a magazine called Reason apply logic?



    Because I have to drink everytime you say that. Rules are rules!

    I would be curious to know what liberals/estrogen-libertarians suggest Israel do. Negotiate with Hamas, who has the destruction of Israel as it's only purpose? For example why not split it down the middle, and destroy half of Israel? Remove the settlements from Gaza? (oh, I forgot). For the UN to Give Hamas more advanced weaponry to murder Israeli civilians in order to level the playing field?



    How about this. The US should stop supplying financial, military and political support to Israel. Be neutral and let Israel take care of itself.

    To quote Washington in his farewell address:

    "Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions; by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill-will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld."

    Just read the whole damn thing:
    http://www.100megspop3.com/bark/Beware.html

  • Tacos mmm...||

    Hey Taco, Islam is not a race it's a deathcult.



    Bigots are bigots. How many Nobel prizes have you won recently?

  • Underzog||

    "What on earth are you rambling on about? I've never killed anyone. You want me to acknowledge that Hamas is awful? I think I've made that pretty clear throughout this thread, but sure, for your sake: Hamas sucks. They are a bunch of thugs and murderers, and Israel or anyone else had the right to stop them, using deadly force if necessary. But they still don't have the right to bombard Gaza in the hope that somehow, somewhere, some bad people will be killed in all the chaos.
    "

    I wouldn't believe anything you said about yourself anyway. I don't know you and certainly don't trust you.

    Incidentally, before you stupidly mouth off about Israel hitting Hamas targets instead of marching peacefully to gas chambers or rockets, learn some international law:

    Art. 28. The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.

    Geneva Convention (1949)

  • Tacos mmm...||

    I'm not sure where the anti-Semitism accusations came from, since I don't think I've mentioned religion except for acknowledging that Hamas is anti-Semitic.



    Bigots inevitably read bigotry into the actions of others.

  • ||

    "I wouldn't believe anything you said about yourself anyway. I don't know you and certainly don't trust you."

    Heh. You better watch out!

    "Incidentally, before you stupidly mouth off about Israel hitting Hamas targets instead of marching peacefully to gas chambers or rockets, learn some international law:

    Art. 28. The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.

    Geneva Convention (1949)"

    Oh, like I give a fuck.

  • Underzog||

    "Bigots inevitably read bigotry into the actions of others."

    More turnspeak propaganda. Eliminationist anti-Semites accusing their targets, victims and, potential victims of the odious traits they themselves have; e.g., such as eliminationist bigotry.

    Incidentally, here is a website that explains Turnspeak Propaganda. It comes from a website that is run by us descendants of apes and pigs, but we don't lie as Muslims do (taqqiyah) so maybe you'll forgive

  • Tacos mmm...||

    ...but we don't lie as Muslims do (taqqiyah) so maybe you'll forgive



    So because some Shia have concealed their faith to avoid persecution from Sunnis over the centuries, all muslims are liars, and it's propaganda to think otherwise, Jewhater.

  • ||

    "So because some Shia have concealed their faith to avoid persecution from Sunnis over the centuries, all muslims are liars, and it's propaganda to think otherwise, Jewhater."

    Stop turnspeaking, turnspeaker.

  • Underzog||

    Oh, like I give a fuck.I agree you don't care about international law and neither does any other supporter of Muslim terrorists.

    Incidentally, there are plenty of attacks by Muslims on Jewish synagogues outside of Israel. Debbie Schlussel: Muslim kristallnacht Chicago 2008: Reader David's synagogue (and four others!)attacked (obviously by Muslims).

    "Reason Magazine's" Hit and Run does not mention these attacks. They probably don't mention it to whitewash the crimes of the Islamists. Just as they hardly mentioned when John Muhammed shot and nearly killed one of their own.

  • ||

    "I agree you don't care about international law and neither does any other supporter of Muslim terrorists."

    International law doesn't *enable* violence, you numskull. The Geneva convention can't magically turn wrong into right.

    Also, I know you're probably just trolling, but what part of "I hate Hamas" was unclear to you? I don't support Hamas, for most of the same reasons I don't support the Israeli government. Do you really think that criticizing one is equivalent to supporting the other?

    ""Reason Magazine's" Hit and Run does not mention these attacks. They probably don't mention it to whitewash the crimes of the Islamists. Just as they hardly mentioned when John Muhammed shot and nearly killed one of their own."

    Reason doesn't mention these attacks because they are largely irrelevant to the debate at hand. We are talking about Israel and Gaza. Unless you are making some bizarre tribalistic connection between the actions of the Israeli government and crimes committed against any Jews anywhere in the world, I can't see how the two are related, except superficially.

  • Neil the Ethical Werewolf||

    Thank Zeus! A situation where my professional competence is useful in clarifying what is going on.

    Not that I know more than the next commenter about Israel -- I'm just a philosophy professor. But I can explain why Yglesias is right that he wasn't offering an analogy. He was giving a counterexample to a premise of the other side's argument. It's an important distinction.

  • nobody u no and big fan of joe||

    joe is right about this Yglesias is right too. Reason misses the mark just blaming it on israel. the real culprit is the capitalist system.

  • Underzog||

    You be fair to me, nobody u know...

    in my posts numbered 7:51 p.m. and 7:53 p.m., I detail Jewish atrocities in Hamastan jess to show that I am even handed.

    I want to be like everyone else in this "Hit and Run" blog and I'm working hard to do it, too.

    Now pass me the bong pipe and the cocaine.

  • nobody u no and big fan of joe||

    whatever zionist corporatist puppet.

  • ||

    Children are supposed to exert control over how their houses are used? Really??

    Their parents are. If children suffer for their parent's sins, so what? This is especially true when I see interviews with mothers who are orgasmic at the idea their children will die in order to kill infidels. So no, I have no problem at all with killing children who are in the way of killing our enemy. If the Palestinians don't like it, they can execute Hamas themselves. We all know that won't happen, because they fully support the goals and methods of Hamas.

    Urban combat. We're not talking about houses surrounded by flowing 30 acre lawns. We're talking about squalid flats where one room may be occupied by a sniper, and three doors down, you have a family of four.

    So what? It doesn't matter whether the human shields are there voluntarily, you can't let combatants off scott free. Furthermore, this is Palestine, where the population put Hamas in power. Let the Palestinians suffer for their choices. Aid the enemy, die with them.

    So kill them all. God will know his own.

    So many people are pointing to dead bodies and saying "what about these dead civilians". My point was "why are you presuming all the dead people are civilians and not dead terrorists?" As for "kill them all", when the "civilians" support the terrorists, "kill them all" is OK by me.

  • Tacos mmm...||

    So no, I have no problem at all with killing children who are in the way of killing our enemy.



    Hey Moynihan, bet you get a flush of pride just reading that.

  • MJ||

    "Slaughter Hamas all you want, I don't care, but don't punish people for the crime of living next door to killers."-Mike

    How does one go about that with any degree of certainity? It would be really nice if you can, but I don't think warfare against an enemy like Hamas makes that kind of fastidiousness possible. A substantial, perhaps even majority, percentage of the Gazan civilian population is pro-Hamas and actively helping them. Also, the Israelis are not getting a guidebook of which Palestinian is which. The Gazan government wanted war. They got what they wanted, and wars are messy, chaotic happenings. It is not reasonable to pretend that they can be conducted in an orderly fashion.

    You generously grant that Israel has a right to defend itself but put so many conditions and caveats on them that if they followed your proscriptions they would be paralyzed against doing anything in response to Hamas' attacks.

  • ||

    Tacos:

    I find it very amusing that you first claim to be using logic, and proceed to answer my question: "what should Israel do" with "How about this. The US should stop supplying financial, military and political support to Israel. Be neutral and let Israel take care of itself."

    I have no problem with the US stopping aid to Israel (and Egypt and other arab nations, of course). I asked what ISRAEL should do. You clearly do not have an answer.
    Reason indeed.


    Mike: Innocent people are dying, because Hamas
    is hiding among civilians and insisting in shooting rockets at Israel. If they didn't do that Israel would have no interest in killing anyone. You, and everyone else here, knows this, and should be able to use the chain of logic to place moral blame where it belongs. Instead you childishly let yourself be manipulated by Hamas propaganda.

    In response to my question: "what should
    Israel do" you answered "stop fighting". OK, lets' say they do. Are you aware that Hamas plans to continue firing rockets into Israel? And are you aware that Hamas will not accept the existence of Israel? So what should Israel do? Accept destruction? Simply allow their civilians to be killed indefinitely by Hamas?

    Do you understand cause and effect, that Hamas was firing rockets into Israel BEFORE the invasion, so that this war was caused by Hamas activities, and that Hamas has make clear that they indent to continue firing rockets into Israel, just as they did before the war?

    Hamas does not have any reasonable demands. There are no settlements on Gaza that can be moved, or any other rightfull grievance (the existence of Israel is not a reasonable grievance to me).

    Regarding sanctions it's clear that Hamas is importing weapons. Should Israel not only accept destruction, but also arm the people who want to butcher it? Are you honestly calling intercepting illegal Iranian arm shipments "an act of war"?

    I ask again. Given that Hamas want to destroy Israel, given that the people of Gaza largely support this, given that Israel has already removed it's settlements, how should they stop them from firing rockets in order to murder Israelis?

    And please think through your answers.
    Personally I don't think "accept the rockets, build shelters, accept that Palestinians in Gaza prefer killing a few Israelis to building a nation" is an completely illogical answer, but than you better freaking understand the moral implications, even if Israel chooses to accept the attacks they have the RIGHT to defend themselves. Being more advanced, richer and more powerful does not make you a legitimate target for hateful underdeveloped people with a crazed ideology.

    Last logic lesson: If Israel could surgically kill only Hamas fighters they obviously would. Hamas is the one that is causing the civilian deaths by using civilian sites as places of war (despite this most of the death are not civilians, proving the point that Israel has no wish to kill children, unlike Hamas).
    Writing "Slaughter Hamas all you want, I don't care, but don't punish people for the crime of living next door to killers" illustrates my point: you are being childish in your thinking. Since Hamas tactics make a war without civilian collateral damage impossible, your demand is that Israel (and I suppose every other civilized country) surrender to anyone who uses civilians shields. In effect you want to reward the murder of innocent people, while making any defensive action by lawful nations against war criminals impossible.

    By the way, following your "logic", what if the arabs next putt hostages in tanks and drive into Israel? Are we allowed to fight back (if this sounds insane, this idea was contemplated by Saddam during the Gulf war).
    Be responsible, and think like adults.

  • Underzog||

    "Hey Moynihan, bet you get a flush of pride just reading that."

    These Islamic terrorist supporters -- more turnspeak.

    Hamas kills Jewish civilians with rockets and Hamas kills Hamastan civilians by stationing them as shields (another war crime) and anti Semitic idiots blame the Jews.

    Mr. Monyihan, if people make posts about you like the one I'm quoting, I apologize for any hurt feelings I may have caused you in my earliest posts.

    "There's no need to fear. Underzog is here!"

  • Underzog||

    Tino's efforts are noble, quixotic at best.

    The foam-at-the-mouth hatred against the Jews is not logical, it's primal (as in primal scream).

    One can no more reason with them than one can with Hamas. I don't really talk to them, I just hope that Israel keeps going and I can comment on their screaming and their logical fallacy of appealing to emotion (as Taco did to Mr. Monyihan -- quoted in my previous post).

    It is so bad that even a philosophy major enshrines building a strawman as an argument that Jews should lay down their arms and die.

  • ||

    Hey Moynihan, bet you get a flush of pride just reading that.

    Please proudly explain why allowing your enemy to dictate when you're allowed to shoot at him constitutes sound operational doctrine.

  • Underzog||

    Everyone!

    Let's feel sorry for the Hamas terrorists and their thuggish nation.

    Afterall, the kid who kills his parents and then asks for sympathy because he is an orphan is an important philosophical principle, isn't it?

  • ||

    Typical attempt to reduce highly complex issues down into some ridiculous simplistic little tale of woe. Just like saying the solution to the Great Depression was the New Deal, or that the worldwide economic meltdown is a result of sub prime mortgages.

    The war in Gaza is not simply about Isreal protecting itself from a bunch of Palistinians with no army. No matter what happens, they have the full right to not allow anyone at anytime to threaten and harm their sovereign state. Does not matter who wants to deny the sovereignty..it EXISTS, and the Isrealis live there and have a functioning international government. But the Hamas faction is a surrigate for the Iran and fundamentalist Islamists that want to show their power and strength to allow them to recruit others to their cause of religios world wide domination...no matter how infantile and stupid that might be, that is there wish, along with domination of the Middle East. The Gaza war is merely a showcase for their cause, and the Isrealis are just being used as scapegoats and propaganda. If every single Palistinian were wiped out in the process, Hamas would not care at all about the humanity. They want world opinion on their side, so the more that "innocents" are killed and maimed, the better. Proportionality discussions are just simplistic mental masturbation exercises. Recognize, that like World War II, it is not about Duke Ferdinand getting killed....that was merely an excuse to do what others wanted to do. Hamas and other terrorists are expert in manipulating the weak minded ideolog public activists, and in using their horrors to make themselves appear the victims. The discussions about the "poor children" may make you feel good and righteous, but they are a canard in the conflict. The Islamists EXPECT to have children killed...they do not care...they do not respect weak women and children...they are dominated by radical power mongers who wish to jam their belief system down the throats of the world, and they will use every means to gain support for that cause, including shooting their own citizens if they refuse to cooperate in the manipulative propaganda and suicide missions. Enough drivel and tearing of garments already.

  • ||

    "Let's feel sorry for the Hamas terrorists and their thuggish nation.

    Afterall, the kid who kills his parents and then asks for sympathy because he is an orphan is an important philosophical principle, isn't it?"

    After reading through some of your recent comments, I'm not entirely sure you're a sane person.

  • ||

    I also think a lot of the confusion in this thread derives from the feudalistic notion that the civilians in Gaza somehow "belong" to Hamas (and similarly that the civilians in Israel "belong" to Israel).

  • ||

    "including shooting their own citizens if they refuse to cooperate in the manipulative propaganda and suicide missions."

    This is what I was talking about.

  • ||

    "The Islamists EXPECT to have children killed...they do not care..."

    The children probably care, though.

  • ||

    Incidentally, here is a website that explains Turnspeak Propaganda.

    You've clearly learned well. You use Hitlerian language about Muslims and openly wish for their mass slaughter, than accuse anyone who looks at you funny of anti-Semitism.

    Are you really so dense that you don't think anybody will notice?

  • ||

    "You've clearly learned well. You use Hitlerian language about Muslims and openly wish for their mass slaughter, than accuse anyone who looks at you funny of anti-Semitism."

    ZOMG STOP TURNSPEEKING!!

  • ||

    to pretend that Israel was doing nothing while Hamas lobbed rockets is B.S.

    a. Israel was blockading Gaza.
    b. Israel continued confiscating Palestinian houses and build new settlements in the west bank and east Jerusalem.
    c. Israel continued killing Palestinians.

    All of this was happening during the ceasefire.

  • ||

    a,

    Lest I be accused of hypocrisy, I should point out that none of your points justifies Hamas firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel.

  • ||

    Hmmm just to get to my reoccuring point about global (not so much the USA) condemnation of Israel

    I would say that the occupation of Gaza and the West bank is wrong but how come no one made any furore about the Syrian occupation of Lebanon?

    www.nytimes.com/2005/04/26/international/middleeast/26cnd-lebanon.html?_r=1&hp&ex=1114574400&en=ca0e80e08eb9c430&ei=5094&partner=homepage

    I was just watchin a sky news interview with a Syrian minister saying that Hamas missle strikes on Israel are justified because of the Israeli occupation.

    I don't know how she would reconcile that with the Syrian occupation of Lebanon

    other than my usual critique that if a Jew does something its wrong, if an Arab does something it doesn't matter.

  • ||

    Someone should write a really detailed analogy in which none of the kids are allowed to leave the block, the children's grandparents used to live in the bicyclist's house, and the playground is split into preadolescent factions that hate each other more than they hate the bicyclists.

    Would that analogy include Yglesias' dad refusing to allow the pizza delivery man, or the family doctor, or the milkman, from making deliveries of food, or providing basic services? Would it include him controlling when, (or if) the water and gas were turned on? Would it include Yglesias' dad preventing anybody in the project from making an honest living?

  • ||

    ""The Islamists EXPECT to have children killed...they do not care..."

    Mike: "The children probably care, though."

    The children, at least the one in the video, are smart enough to know whom to blame. Why don't you understand that, anti-Semite? Are you putting words into the mouths of children that don't share your Jews-should-lay-down-and-die sentiments?

    Maybe they don't want to be shahids and get those 72 white raisins in paradise.

    Palestinian girl blames Hamas for the war

  • ||

    "The children, at least the one in the video, are smart enough to know whom to blame. Why don't you understand that, anti-Semite? Are you putting words into the mouths of children that don't share your Jews-should-lay-down-and-die sentiments?"

    I don't know why I should be surprised that your rationalization for killing innocent people keeps changing, since it's a morally indefensible position.

    PS. Seriously, stop calling me an anti-Semite.

  • ||

    "He started it" gets us nowhere.

    I agree. We should concern ourselves with who will finish it, and how.

    And, frankly, I don't see Hamas as being part of any resolution that we would care to be party to.

    The fundamental problem is that Israel, to this day, has no one to reach a negotiated settlement with. Hamas is certainly not a legitimate negotiating partner, sworn as they are to the destruction of Israel and with a seemingly unshakable addiction to terror and war crimes.

    Until that changes, there will be violence. Full stop. The Israelis seem to be acting on the belief that step one of reaching a sustainable resolution would appear to be: get rid of Hamas.

  • ||

    Why is anyone wasting time arguing with Underzog? I didn't expect the Hit & Run crowd to give in to the taunts of some partisan name-caller. Clearly, anyone who disagrees with his position will be labeled and no serious discussion will follow.

  • Tacos mmm...||

    I would say that the occupation of Gaza and the West bank is wrong but how come no one made any furore about the Syrian occupation of Lebanon?



    Why does Tibet get attention that Sri Lanka doesn't?

    Some conflicts just get more attention, just like some crimes make the national headlines, and some never leave the local paper.

  • ||

    Your title shows an embarrassing lack of comprehension of Magritte's idea.

  • Tacos mmm...||

    Why is anyone wasting time arguing with Underzog? I didn't expect the Hit & Run crowd to give in to the taunts of some partisan name-caller. Clearly, anyone who disagrees with his position will be labeled and no serious discussion will follow.



    Because he makes the side he supports look bad, and the more he talks, the worse it looks. Kind of like a heckler at a Sarah Palin rally, he does more damage to the positions he supports than his opposition ever could.

    Or, he could just be pretending, in which case he's a national treasure of trolling, and it's worth responding just to watch him ply his trade.

  • Tacos mmm...||

    But the Hamas faction is a surrigate for the Iran and fundamentalist Islamists that want to show their power and strength to allow them to recruit others to their cause of religios world wide domination...no matter how infantile and stupid that might be, that is there wish, along with domination of the Middle East.



    No, Hamas is a Sunni religious party, related to Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood. You're confusing it with Hezbollah, which is a Shia political party in Lebanon that has the support of Iran.

    If you don't know even this much, that you could have gotten of of Wikipedia, the rest of your analysis is substantially discredited.

  • Tacos mmm...||

    Please proudly explain why allowing your enemy to dictate when you're allowed to shoot at him constitutes sound operational doctrine.



    Because a tactical victory obtained at strategic cost is no victory at all. It is possible to win a dozen battles and still lose that war, and Israel is heading down this road.

  • Tacos mmm...||

    I have no problem with the US stopping aid to Israel (and Egypt and other arab nations, of course). I asked what ISRAEL should do. You clearly do not have an answer.



    What should Israel do? Give up on a fantasy of ethnic Jewsish purity and allow the Palestians to resettle in the land they fled and/or were pushed out of during the 6 day war.

    A state that defines itself by ethnicity is an anachronism, and in realistic terms, Israel is a colony started by Europeans in the middle east against the wishes of their neighbors. An experiment like that is never going to end successfully, and Israel will cease to be a Jewish majority state due to reproductive disparities sometime this century, even if nothing else happens.

    States and empires rise and fall. I don't shed any tears either way.

  • ||

    But the Hamas faction is a surrigate for the Iran and fundamentalist Islamists that want to show their power and strength to allow them to recruit others to their cause of religios world wide domination...no matter how infantile and stupid that might be, that is there wish, along with domination of the Middle East.

    No, Hamas is a Sunni religious party, related to Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood. You're confusing it with Hezbollah, which is a Shia political party in Lebanon that has the support of Iran.


    Actually, the Iranian Shias have shown themselves to be fully capable of supporting Sunnis, and in fact they do support Hamas. As the New York Times reported, umm, today:

    But Hamas, a pariah to Egypt and Jordan, has received money and training from Iran, while the group has provided Iran with a powerful surrogate to undermine American and Israeli interests in the region. While Iran is the primary patron of Hamas, the two do not enjoy the same seamless relationship that Iran has with Hezbollah, the Lebanese Shiite militia and political organization that Tehran helped to form.

    Just keeping the record straight, is all.

  • ||

    When Yglesias says he's not using an analogy, you either call him a liar and explain why or you agree.

    This post is a helping of
    Reading FAIL.

  • jtuf||

    Underzog,

    There certainly is much anti-Semitism on the anti-Israel side. Several French synogogues where attacked with home made explosives these past two weeks, and there where other attacks against Jewish grave yards and buildings throughout Europe. However, I don't think anti-Semitism is a big factor in the criticism of Israel on Reason. I think it's just a matter of ignorace, since the main stream media just reports death tolls without much detail.

    Filling in the gaps for those readers is the best way to nullfy media bias. For example, I'm sure most readers would rethink their position if they knew that Israel tries to minimize civilian casualties by dropping pamphlets with warnings the day before a bombing campaign in a neighborhood and by calling the residents of a targetted house 15 minutes before droping a bomb so that they have a chance to evacuate. They probably aren't aware that Israel bombs the houses not out of punishment, but because the houses are used to smuggle and store the kasam rockets that Hamas fires on Israelis. They might also want to know that Israel halts fighting for 3 hours each day to allow humanitarian aid to come through, and that Hamas attacks aid convoys during these halts, sometimes stealing the aid and selling it to the highest bidder. Sticking to tangible facts is more productive than questioning the opposing side's motives.

  • jtuf||

    Underzog,

    Please be aware that there is a wide range of views towards Israel within the Muslim world. Kosovo is pro-Israel. Turkey is an ally of Israel, although the relationship is strained this past month. There is a cold peace with Egypt and a peace treaty with Jordan. Mauritania is the third Arab country to open an embassy and have official diplomatic ties with Israel. Qatar refuses to open an embassy with Israel, but it has an Israeli trade office. Kuwait doesn't like Israel, but has no love for Gazans who cheered for Sadam during Gulf War I. Syria threatens Israel, but has started low level negotiations for peace with Israel in the past couple of years. Iran wants to wipe Israel off the map. So there you have it. There is quite a spectrum from Kosovo, which sides with both America and Israel, and Iran, which calls America "Big Satan" and Israel "Little Satan".

  • MNG||

    Wow, Moynihan is certainly a big tool, that's for sure. Gotta keep those right wing fans happy, wouldn't want to threaten that with some consistent libertarianism...In his world entire groups of people can be killed, have their basic human and economic rights deprived, because an abstract concept like a "nation" is attacked by some people within that group.

    David Luban's post here (Is the Gaza War Legal?) does a good job of discussing the matter in a non-toolish fashion:

    http://balkin.blogspot.com/

  • MNG||

    joe nailed MM on this one too. If the kid threw a pebble (it would have to be a pebble since Israel, as a nation, is supposed to be the cycler, and Hamas attacks have not even the potential to be more threatening to the nation of Israel than a pebble would to a person) and had a pact to destroy the cycler it would still be crazy to say it is justified to pull out a bazooka and flatten the apartment complex the kid lived in.

    MM's slipperiness is in how he shifts around in his analogy from one level to another (kidnapping a handful of Israeli's compared to kidnapping the cycler, who is supposed to be the nation of Israel [and who mentions how many Palestinians are kidnapped, I mean "arrested" by the IDF during that time?]) and his false parts of the analogy (rocks every day? they were just under a cease-fire not too long ago), everyone in his projects? a majority of Gazans did NOT vote for Hamas in 2006, etc).

  • MNG||

    Israel has hundreds and hundreds of Palestinians in its jails, many of them administrative detainees (no trial). That's kidnapping for you, and Hamas has not come close to such an egregious number. Moynihan conviently ignores that.

  • Underzog||

    Jtuf,

    The Qu'ran itself says make war against people of the book (Christians and Jews). Also, all those eliminationist anti-Semitic demonstrations in Europe and America This one in New York had people saying Hitler didn't do a good job (in killing enough Jews)and Jews did 9/11 make me realize what Islam is about.

    Mubarak is going to die soon and who will take over Egypt after him? The Muslim Brotherhood? Quite possibly.

    Also, as much as the Arab states hate Israel (Egypt has a hit song about it), it is Iran they fear; hence the muted response of the Arab states to this Hamastan war.

    However, the responses from a great many Hit and Run people here are more hostile than Egypt, Jordan, or even the PA authority.

    And that's scary!

  • jtuf||

    I realize there is a large stream within Islam with an irrational and murderous hate for Israel and all non-Muslims. However, there is also a courageous minority that speaks for peace and coexistance with Israel. It's important to distinguish between Muslims who cheer for Hamas, Al-Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood on the one hand, and Muslims that want to live in peace with Israel, India, the Phillipines and the West on the other hand.

  • Underzog||

    One last thing Jtuf. You talk about educating them? I gave them this hyperlink that I think is quite inclusive: The History and Geography of Israel and Palestine

    Have any of them even looked at it? I doubt it. There are other important websites to look at. Faithfreedom.org.

    No offense to you, but I'm really not here to educate them myself. The knowledge is there for them to look at. I fear they're just in denial about it :(

  • Relationships 101||

    When you get married you don't know the history of your spouse's relationship with family and wisely you stay out of it.

    While it is interesting to observe Palestinian-Israeli relationship, it is foolhardy to engage in it. Non-interventionism isn't a bad policy. Thatis not to say you aren't ignorant of it.

  • Undergod||

    Underzog

    You are assuming they read the Koran. They most likely do that in a fraction to reading online content of whatever suits their fancy.

  • jtuf||

    Via www.jpost.com this morning, Israel wants to treat wounded Gazans in Israeli hospitals, but Hamas won't let patients cross the border. So, Israelis are cosidering setting up a field hospital in Gaza.

    Until Hamas changes its mind, "we are looking for ways to ameliorate the situation...Therefore, I first and foremost ask the WMA and other international bodies to use their power and authority to call upon Hamas to allow the transfer and treatment of these wounded in Israeli hospitals, as needed.

    "However, if Hamas does not heed this call, I ask you and any other body to advance the establishment of a field facility, and I am convinced that the necessary help will be offered by Israel's Health Ministry to facilitate the establishment of this facility," Blachar declared.

  • jtuf||

    Thanks for the two links Underzog. I've got them in my favorites and with read them over the next several days.

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