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Lori Drew is Doomed
As of last week, it looked like Judge George Wu would forbid any mention of Megan Meier's suicide in Lori Drew's trial. Today Wu changed his mind:
Evidence from the suicide of a Missouri girl can be used by prosecutors against a woman charged with helping to create a false Internet identity that was used to harass the teenager, a federal judge has ruled....
U.S. District Judge George Wu previously indicated he might bar any mention of suicide because it could be prejudicial, but he changed his mind Friday after hearing lawyers' arguments.
Wu said he was now convinced that many prospective jurors would be aware of the suicide from reading news reports or seeing a recent episode of the TV show "Law and Order" that involved a similar scenario. [emphasis added]
Law and Order? Seriously? Drew's attorney, Dean Steward, on the news:
"The jury is going to end up thinking that Lori Drew is being tried for the death of Megan Meier," he said.
Rather than making a reasoned decision, he said, "this jury is just going to decide this by sympathy."
I hate to call this one in the state's favor, but things don't look good for the cyber bully from Missouri. For more on Myspace's most notable sob story, check out reason's miniature Lori Drew Archive.
the innominate one|11.17.08 @ 6:37PM|#
It's certainly not strictly logical, but I can't feel any sympathy for Lori Drew. She's an immature, reprehensible person.
SIV|11.17.08 @ 6:41PM|#
Lori Drew is Doomed
Good news! Does Missouri have "breaking on the wheel" or "drawing
and quartering" on the books?
The Angry Optimist|11.17.08 @ 6:57PM|#
outrageous. introducing this evidence has zero probative value and is solely intended to prejudice the jury.
|11.17.08 @ 7:08PM|#
How whimpy have we gotten when people consider nasty things in cyber space 'bulling'?I was 5',85 lbs and had been advanced a year when I starter high school.Believe me,I know what real bulling is.I wish I could have pushed the off button and walked away.Thankfully I grew almost a foot in the next 3 years.
Paleo Pat|11.17.08 @ 7:08PM|#
I hate to sound like an heartless tool, but this is one time
when I can honestly say. I have zero compassion for this woman. She
belongs in jail for life. Period.
Put the bitch in jail and throw away the key.
-Pat
The Angry Optimist|11.17.08 @ 7:16PM|#
Paleo - you don't sound like a badass. You sound like someone
who has no respect for the rule of law.
Lori Drew is a pretty good litmus test for libertarians. This is
one of those situations where someone is a douchebag is an extreme.
Being a douchebag should not be against the law.
It just goes to show how quickly principles go out the window.
Dormouse|11.17.08 @ 7:17PM|#
I hate to sound like an heartless tool, but this is one time
when I can honestly say. I have zero compassion for this woman. She
belongs in jail for life. Period.
Put the bitch in jail and throw away the key.
People like you are a big part of the reason the world is so
sucky.
Emotion has no place in law.
Tacos mmm...|11.17.08 @ 7:21PM|#
I hate to sound like an heartless tool, but this is one time when I can honestly say. I have zero compassion for this woman. She belongs in jail for life. Period.
Exceptional cases make for bad law. I hope I'm not alone when I say
that I don't look forward to a time when MySpace terms of service
carry the force of federal law.
Lori Drew is just another bullying cheerleader-mom, a personality
so common that it's become a stereotype.
|11.17.08 @ 7:25PM|#
Fortunately, this is why we have appeals courts. Somehow I'm not too concerned because the conviction will be tossed, but I am curious to know why the judge doesn't think it will (seeing as how making errors like that doesn't look too good on the resume).
That Dude|11.17.08 @ 7:28PM|#
I don't know the facts of the case. I do not know who should be
in jail or not.
What I do know is that if a judge ruled in favor of a defendent on
the basis of a popular TV show in, say, a marijuana case or a case
of a doctor that prescribed massive amounts of pain medication,
Reason would not be horrified but would be celebrating the success
of pop culture in bringing the squares around. (As would I.)
|11.17.08 @ 7:34PM|#
I hate defending bitches like this piece of human flotsam Lori
Drew. I still have to though. I hate her all the more for placing
me in such am uncomfortabe position. I wouldn't even let you suck
me off Lori, you ain't near as good as a Tiajuana whore. But if I
was on the jury, I'd vote to acquit.
Fuckin' evil bitch.
Just Plain Brian|11.17.08 @ 7:37PM|#
How whimpy have we gotten when people consider nasty things in cyber space 'bulling'?
There really isn't a single word that describes what Lori Drew did,
even if they keep describing her with words like "bully".
Lori Drew targeted a young girl who used to be friends with her
daughter, pretended to be a boy her age online and flirted with
her. Then when this 13 year old girl was emotionally invested she
turned on her.
Lori Drew deserves to suffer, but they shouldn't do this to the law
in the process. Why can't a SWAT team do the right "wrong" thing
for once, and mistakenly raid her house?
Tacos mmm...|11.17.08 @ 7:44PM|#
Fuckin' evil bitch.
I can't see her as evil so much as immature. I wasn't any better in high-school. I just grew out of it. It sounds like she never did, continuing to scheme with her daughter and their friends just like she was back in 11th grade, still running with the in-crowd.
It's kind of sad, but you run into people like that all the time, trying to relive the only period of their life where they felt on top and in control.
It's not rare for teens to have an out-of-proportion response to events. I've seen them kill themselves for as little as being sent to their room for the evening. The fact that Megan killed herself may make us, who would consider suicide only in extremis, think that Lori was torturing her in the basement, but everything that's come out suggests that it was plain juvenile cruelty of the sort that composes a substantial portion of adolecent communications in general.
|11.17.08 @ 7:45PM|#
I might be alone here, but I really don't consider her an 'evil bitch'. She did not do anything severely out of the ordinary. Just because on the other end of practical-joke-in-bad-taste happened to be an emotionally distressed teen (whose parents have got to be as thick as it gets), doesn't suddenly make Lori's character any worse than if it was one you on the receiving end. The only difference is that 99.9% of the people would have shrugged it off, while she hit the 'crazy' lottery. And ignoring all the emotional and 'evil bitch' talk, the decision to prosecute for violating MySpace ToS is wrong, admitting the suicide as evidence is wrong and judge Wu is a douche.
Denny Crane|11.17.08 @ 7:45PM|#
Lori Drew is a pretty good litmus test for libertarians.
This is one of those situations where someone is a douchebag is an
extreme. Being a douchebag should not be against the
law.
This country was founded by douchebags. George Washington?
Douchebag. Ben Frankin? Colossal douchebag. Alexander Hamilton? His
picture is in the dictionary next to the entry for "douchebag."
This country stands for douchebaggery. If you're not a douchebag,
you're not an America.
Denny Crane. American. Patriot. Douchebag.
Denny Crane.
Tacos mmm...|11.17.08 @ 7:50PM|#
Lori Drew targeted a young girl who used to be friends with her daughter, pretended to be a boy her age online and flirted with her. Then when this 13 year old girl was emotionally invested she turned on her.
There are probably thousands of fake accounts on myspace at this
very moment, devoted to just this very thing. It's hardly unusual,
and not a cause for rampant suicide.
Megan's parents were in the middle of a divorce, and that was
almost certainly the thing that pushed her 99% of the way towards
killing herself. Lori, her daughter, and their friends just added
the extra one percent.
Loading all the blame onto Lori Drew reeks of scapegoating, and
probably provides a way for Megan's parents to divest themselves of
much of the guilt which is actually theirs, but one would hope that
at Reason, we would see things more clearly.
|11.17.08 @ 7:51PM|#
And, yes indeed, this does seem like a pretty good litmus test for 'libertarian', and I'm saddened to see how many posters here fail it. If you were to replace 'evil bitch on myspace' with 'evil bitch peddling drugs' would that still get you all worked up like that?
Just Plain Brian|11.17.08 @ 7:54PM|#
There are probably thousands of fake accounts on myspace at this very moment, devoted to just this very thing.
Yes, and when those adults make romantic overtures to 13 year old
children we call it a crime.
Denny Crane|11.17.08 @ 7:55PM|#
There are probably thousands of fake accounts on myspace at
this very moment, devoted to just this very thing.
I plead the Fifth.
Denny Crane. Constitutional scholar. Patriot. Douchebag.
Denny Crane.
Tacos mmm...|11.17.08 @ 7:55PM|#
Just because on the other end of practical-joke-in-bad-taste happened to be an emotionally distressed teen (whose parents have got to be as thick as it gets), doesn't suddenly make Lori's character any worse than if it was one you on the receiving end.
Indeed. The conclusion that I eventually came to after looking into
this was that Lori Drew was being scapegoatted by two people who
couldn't face what their messy divorce did to their daughter.
Denny Crane|11.17.08 @ 7:57PM|#
Yes, and when those adults make romantic overtures to 13
year old children we call it a crime.
But what about the policemen pretending to be 13-year-old girls and
harassing me? If it's wrong for one person to have a fake ID on
MySpace, it's wrong for the cops, too.
Denny Crane. Civil libertarian. Against entrapment. Not a
13-year-old girl.
Denny Crane.
Tacos mmm...|11.17.08 @ 7:58PM|#
Yes, and when those adults make romantic overtures to 13 year old children we call it a crime.
Sexual overtures with intent to follow-through, not romantic
overtures. Megan's relationship with her fake friend was never
sexual, and barely even romantic.
Denny Crane|11.17.08 @ 7:59PM|#
Lori Drew was being scapegoatted by two people who couldn't
face what their messy divorce did to their daughter.
This is why Denny Crane is pro-family.
Just ask any of my five ex-wives.
Denny Crane.
Just Plain Brian|11.17.08 @ 8:03PM|#
Sexual overtures with intent to follow-through, not romantic overtures Megan's relationship with her fake friend was never sexual, and barely even romantic.
Do you have actual transcripts, or are you just taking Lori Drew's
word for it?
If that's an effective defense, I imagine it'll be turning up on
Dateline a lot, "I wasn't intending to actually sleep with her, it
was just a practical joke, Chris Hansen"
The Angry Optimist|11.17.08 @ 8:05PM|#
Just Plain Brian - all of that is irrelevant to these
charges.
If the government thought there was a solicitation case here, don't
you think those would be the charges?
The Angry Optimist|11.17.08 @ 8:06PM|#
as a matter of fact, what IS IT that the Dateline sickos are charged with?
Just Plain Brian|11.17.08 @ 8:08PM|#
That's fine, TAO, but when someone is that certain of what transpired, I'd like to know if they have anything more than a hunch and the word of honest, upstanding Lori Drew to back it up.
|11.17.08 @ 8:09PM|#
Do you have actual transcripts, or are you just taking Lori
Drew's word for it?
Do you? Oh I see, you already figured she's guilty.
If that's an effective defense, I imagine it'll be turning up
on Dateline a lot, "I wasn't intending to actually sleep with her,
it was just a practical joke, Chris Hansen"
Yes, Brian, you have the perfect precedent there, all those dudes
got charged with violating a Terms of Service agreement as well,
and then prosecuted by someone in a completely different state.
|11.17.08 @ 8:09PM|#
And in a blatant thread highjack (sorry!) I will post
this:
That French court's decision to annul the marriage of the two
muslims due to the woman's non-virgin status has been
overturned.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/17/muslim-couple
The Angry Optimist|11.17.08 @ 8:12PM|#
you know, some people don't realize just how shady the "Dateline: TCAP" stuff is.
Tacos mmm...|11.17.08 @ 8:12PM|#
Do you have actual transcripts, or are you just taking Lori Drew's word for it?
If I recall, Megan's myspace communications, which were saved just
as email would be, were opened. There wasn't much in them beyond
low level "you're cool" flirtation.
If that's an effective defense, I imagine it'll be turning up on Dateline a lot, "I wasn't intending to actually sleep with her, it was just a practical joke, Chris Hansen"
Not really. By showing up at the house, you express intent to
follow through on your words with actions. That's why they also
have their dupes bring condoms.
|11.17.08 @ 8:18PM|#
Yes, and when those adults make romantic overtures to 13
year old children we call it a crime.
no we don't.
It only becomes criminal when those adults try have some type of
sexual relation with the 13 yr old child.
Did the defendant do that?
Pretending to be someone you are not in cyberspace is not a
criminal offense regardless of what the effect was on the people
who were duped.
I don't particularly care much for Lori Drew (in fact I think she
is a pathetic cunt), but this is a fucking railroading. Not to
mention the terrible precedent this sets if the state successfully
convicts.
I'm sorry but just because you fell in cyber-love to a fake persona
on the net (which has happened thousands upon thousands of times)
and you kill yourself over it, doesn't meant the person who caused
you that pain is criminally liable for your suicide.
Just Plain Brian|11.17.08 @ 8:19PM|#
If I recall, Megan's myspace communications, which were saved just as email would be, were opened. There wasn't much in them beyond low level "you're cool" flirtation.
Well then, that settles it. I mean, it's not like a 13 year old
girl might delete more incriminating messages that she wouldn't
want her parents to find.
|11.17.08 @ 8:19PM|#
as a matter of fact, what IS IT that the Dateline sickos are
charged with?
I dunno the charge, but I have heard/read that the rate of success
of prosecution of those who get nabbed on the show is not all that
great either (don't have a citation handy)
|11.17.08 @ 8:21PM|#
Well then, that settles it. I mean, it's not like a 13 year
old girl might delete more incriminating messages that she wouldn't
want her parents to find.
You really seem to be reaching here.
Without proof that she did more, your assumptions and beliefs about
how the actors would act are irrelevant and based on nothing more
than your own speculation and conjecture.
If there is no proof that there was anything more than harmless
flirtation, that DOES settle it. The law isn't about what mind
readers like you believe to be true, but about what is true and
what can be proved.
Just Plain Brian|11.17.08 @ 8:23PM|#
Without proof that she did more
You're missing my point, I'm not arguing that there
defiitely was more, I'm skeptical of the claim
that there definitely wasn't.
matt2|11.17.08 @ 8:24PM|#
Tacos, you call it "intent", but there is no 13-year old, just
Chris Hansen and a young-looking 18-year old actress.
Wouldn't saying "I knew she was 18 and just pretending to be
younger all along, I'm into that kind of thing" be a bulletproof
defense there? Obviously in practice this doesn't work, but why
not?
Tacos mmm...|11.17.08 @ 8:24PM|#
Well then, that settles it. I mean, it's not like a 13 year old girl might delete more incriminating messages that she wouldn't want her parents to find.
Why would she? Her myspace account was protected by a password. It
was probably the only thing in her house that her parents COULDN'T
get into.
Every time you may one unsupportable allegation, you have to make
an even less supportable one to back it up. I'm pretty convinved
that this point that the only thing you have to offer is hot
air.
Tacos mmm...|11.17.08 @ 8:26PM|#
Wouldn't saying "I knew she was 18 and just pretending to be younger all along, I'm into that kind of thing" be a bulletproof defense there? Obviously in practice this doesn't work, but why not?
If it's all done online, and Chris Hansen says "But I'm 13 hee hee"
and you say "I'm up for that!" then you're screwed.
Just Plain Brian|11.17.08 @ 8:26PM|#
mind readers like you
Sadly I'm not a mind reader, because then I might be able to figure
out why Lori Drew didn't pretend to be a 13 year old
girl online.
Maybe Lori Drew, having once been a young boy, was more familiar
with how they think. No, that can't be right. Hmmmmmm.
matt2|11.17.08 @ 8:43PM|#
But if the potential target (13 year old girl) doesn't exist,
the intent should be irrelevant, right?
It's analogous, in my mind, to a terrorist plot to blow up a
building that doesn't exist. Say you convinced someone online to
help you blow up an imaginary building in your town, he said that
he was on board with the plan, then showed up with a bunch of
legal-to-possess explosives of some sort.
Seems to me that you'd have a hard time convicting that person of
anything. A valid analogy, or no?
matt2|11.17.08 @ 8:54PM|#
I guess it depends how the law is worded - I've got to believe that the letter of the law implies that intent toward a specific minor is required. Otherwise it's just a thought crime.
|11.17.08 @ 9:02PM|#
And, yes indeed, this does seem like a pretty good litmus
test for 'libertarian', and I'm saddened to see how many posters
here fail it. If you were to replace 'evil bitch on myspace' with
'evil bitch peddling drugs' would that still get you all worked up
like that?
Not quite sure what your point is, Val.
I have no use for people peddling drugs, either. I detest them*,
but that doesn't make me support the drug laws or want to throw
people in jail for selling weed. (Adulterated weed, maybe, but
that's another issue.)
*FWIW, I don't particularly like Drug companies peddling remedies
for everything from heart disease to incontinence on TV,
either.
|11.17.08 @ 9:04PM|#
I remember seeing a picture of Lori Drew.
She looked like an overweight women with low self-esteem.
She was probably picking on her daughter's ex-friend out of some
kind of suppressed rage against the way she herself got treated in
high school. It sounds like she kind of got obsessed with the idea
that Megan was picking on her daughter, being manipulative, and
generally kind of acting like a bitchy "popular" girl.
Lord knows, there are plenty of such obsessive people on the
internet. Basically Drew was being a troll. She was trolling Megan
for the same reasons trolls everywhere do it.
But that doesn't mean she should be subjected to prison time. As
deluded and obsessive as she was, she had no way of expecting that
Megan would kill herself.
She just took a real long time to get over her high-school trauma
and stop seeing her teenage oppressors in every young popular girl.
Sadly, it had to come in the form of realizing that she herself was
capable of being just as (or more) hurtful as they were.
SIV|11.17.08 @ 9:04PM|#
Does the State of Missouri allow for the use of "the Pear" in
such cases? What about molten lead and a funnel? 'Cause if I was on
the jury I'd like to add both of those in the penalty phase.
Add them to "breaking on the wheel" or "drawing and quartering"
that is........
anarch|11.17.08 @ 9:07PM|#
How does "Let's go crash some airplanes into some buildings" uh,
fly?
I don't have a position, just exploring.
David|11.17.08 @ 9:16PM|#
What Lori Drew did is unconscionable. She gaslighted an
emotionally unstable teenager and encouraged her suicide. She
certainly deserves jail time and worse.
Unfortunately, there's no law on the books to cover what she did.
Rule of law, yes. But Lori Drew "just another bullying mom?"
No.
SIV|11.17.08 @ 9:23PM|#
8th Amend.,
They weren't unusual punishments in our past history of Western
Civilization .Cruel would be forgetting to have a Priest give the
last rites.
|11.17.08 @ 9:24PM|#
I'd be curious to know if Lori Drew and Megan Meier's parents went to the same high school.
Crow Eating Dumbass|11.17.08 @ 9:40PM|#
"But that doesn't mean she should be subjected to prison time.
As deluded and obsessive as she was, she had no way of expecting
that Megan would kill herself."
If she intended to cause emotional distress on this child do you
think she could or should be held liable in a civil action (I think
it's foreseeable that these kind of actions could induce a 13 year
old girl to harm herself).
If the answer to that is yes, then do you think it would be wrong
to create a criminal offense for such behavior? If no why not.
CED|11.17.08 @ 9:44PM|#
If there is no law about this though it is wrong to just try to
throw whatever can be thrown at the stupid woman.
Is there a civil case being brought against the woman?
Brian|11.17.08 @ 9:44PM|#
Convicting Lori Drew on these charges would set a terrible
precedent. Making a fake identity on MySpace is the same thing as
hacking into a private computer system? Please.
On the other hand, I wouldn't be at all unhappy if some people
decided to break into her house and beat the crap out of her.
CED|11.17.08 @ 9:50PM|#
Based on the little I know I could vote to find her liable of a
tort.
I'd be fine with a criminal intentional infliction of emotional
distress law.
But as there is none here, this prosecution is a bit stinky.
SIV|11.17.08 @ 9:50PM|#
Isn't this case kind of the flipside to jury nullification? They can make the "law" in this case.Sounds like a win for empowering juries!
Bill Cooke|11.17.08 @ 10:29PM|#
This country was founded by douchebags.
Great line! She is a douchebag, but she shouldn't go to prison. I
think there might be a good lawsuit here. Make the cunt pay money.
But I don't like making people criminals and throwing them in
prison for mean immature and stupid acts.
Lester Hunt|11.17.08 @ 10:50PM|#
I don't agree with the person who said that this is a litmus test for libertarians. At least if the issue of whether Drew's actions should be treated as torts (not crimes) I think it is a close one. Intuitively, the case for treating this as a tort would seem stronger than the case for treating libel and slander as such.
Douglas Gray|11.17.08 @ 10:54PM|#
It's common for a breakup or deception involving relationships
to trigger suicide in teens who are close to the edge to begin
with.
Suppose a senior guy flirts with a freshman girl in HS? He leads
her on, plays around with her, then dumps her. So she commits
suicide. His behavior is reprehensible, but can he be held liable
for her taking her own life? This case is really no different.
Lester Hunt|11.17.08 @ 11:04PM|#
On second thought: I just read a three-hour-old AP story on the case that makes it sound like what Drew did was not even very malicious. The message from the fictional boy that said he didn't want to be Megan's cyberfriend anymore was sent by a neighborhood girl who hacked into the account. And the fatal, final message about the world being a better place without Megan was sent by the young woman who will be the PROCECUTION'S star witness! This case is looking more and more screwy. The whole world is going crazy.
m-express|11.17.08 @ 11:10PM|#
What ever somehow I'm not too concerned because the conviction will be tossed.
The Wine Commonsewer|11.17.08 @ 11:14PM|#
Rather than making a reasoned decision, he said, "this jury
is just going to decide this by sympathy
And if Steward was suing Mickie Dees because some careless chick
spilled hot coffee in her lap, that would be just perfect.
I also doubt if the jury is going to assume Drew is being tried for
suicide inducement. They are, however, going to look at her with a
jaundiced eye. Sort of like the way juries look at a drunk who runs
over a kid in a crosswallk. Yeah, he didn't mean it, but the kid's
still dead.
The Wine Commonsewer|11.17.08 @ 11:21PM|#
I don't agree with the person who said that this is a litmus
test for libertarians
Some libertarians like to hang their hats on strange things.
I tend to agree that the Drew prosecution is a vengeance
prosecution. But I don't care much. There are hundreds of bullshit
prosecutions daily that violate the very core of libertarian
principles and are far more deserving of our attention.
I'd say the Corey Maye case is a better litmus test for
libertarians.
|11.17.08 @ 11:41PM|#
There is a logical consistency to this decision. I mean, it's not as if this woman actually committed any real crime. The State's entire reason for bringing this action is that the girl killed herself and the lady was mean. If you are going to allow the trial to go forward in the first place, at least make it honest.
robert bolt|11.18.08 @ 3:04AM|#
"A Man for All Seasons"
Wife: Arrest him!
Thomas More: For what?
Wife: He's dangerous!
Roper: For all we know he's a spy!
Daughter: Father, that man's bad!
More: There's no law against that!
Roper: There is, God's law!
More: Then let God arrest him!
Wife: While you talk he's gone!
More: And go he should, if he were the Devil himself, until he
broke the law!
Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to
get after the Devil?
Roper: Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned
'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being
flat?
This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's
laws, not God's! And if you cut them down (and you're just the man
to do it!), do you really think you could stand upright in the
winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law,
for my own safety's sake!
The Angry Optimist|11.18.08 @ 7:21AM|#
I'd say the Corey Maye case is a better litmus test for
libertarians.
Corey Maye shouldn't even me a test. That one is too easy.
|11.18.08 @ 7:34AM|#
"Suppose a senior guy flirts with a freshman girl in HS? He
leads her on, plays around with her, then dumps her. So she commits
suicide. His behavior is reprehensible, but can he be held liable
for her taking her own life? This case is really no
different."
If I were on a jury I could see those two cases as different. This
woman's behavior is more in the "extreme and outrageous"
category.
Stringing someone along romantically is wrong, but not so extreme
and outrageous. A grown woman obsessively setting up a fake teenage
online persona in order to inflict emotional stress on a child whom
she knows is potentially unstable strikes me as a different
case.
VM|11.18.08 @ 8:18AM|#
What Chicago Tom said. and A_R.
now, what happened hier: the Merovingian fell in love with Jean
Bart, was rejected, and cyber offed himself?
(ducks. runs off)
|11.18.08 @ 8:35AM|#
Stringing someone along romantically is wrong, but not so
extreme and outrageous. A grown woman obsessively setting up a fake
teenage online persona in order to inflict emotional stress on a
child whom she knows is potentially unstable strikes me as a
different case.
I think the fact that the Drews were friendly with the Meiers makes
her actions more disturbing. My guess is that many neighborhoods
have Lori Drew-types, the interfering bitch who thinks that
squabbles between kids are her fight. who encourages and joins in
all the petty things that kids are prone to do. They were almost
invariably the parents of people who could dish it out but not take
it. We had a woman who show up at the bus stop and berate middle
schoolers if they had any conflict with her son(who had no problem
ridiculing anyone else). I have no doubt that this woman would have
resorted to fake identities to "gather dirt" if MySpace had existed
when I was growing up
Let me make it clear that I don't think that there's a law that she
can be legitimately charged with, and obviously shouldn't go to
prison. But I'd be lying if I said there wasn't a part of me that
enjoys seeing someone like this twist in the wind. The very public
shaming that she's enduring is probably the right sort of
punishment for what she did.
|11.18.08 @ 9:13AM|#
I think a lot of you are allowing your emotions to rule you.
Sure, what Drew did was shitty, but lying and manipulation are not
illegal. If they were, I'd be in big fucking trouble and so would a
lot of you.
Drew did not pull a trigger on this girl. The only person
responsible for the death is Meier herself. It is absolutely that
simple.
|11.18.08 @ 9:37AM|#
A couple of notes. Wasn't thee an article in here a few days ago
about how this judge was being principle because he was being
intellectually or legally consistent. Ha ha ha haaa ha. A
principled federal judiciary... pfft.
Second. I feel sorry what happened to this girl and this woman
certainly deserves derision. The idea that you can be bullied by
the internet strikes me as completely stupid. I don't HAVE to open
that email. I don't HAVE to read that myspace reply. I am sure thee
is a tort, but not a crime. If I got to throw someone in jail for
every lost girlfriend.....sheeeesh.
When I was in school, i was really bullied. I didn't have a choice
but to get my face stomped and stuffed into a locker and be
humiliated in front of the other students.
Guy Smiley|11.18.08 @ 9:43AM|#
According to the Wikipedia, the events directly preceding the
suicide were: Meier broached the abusive messages with her mom; her
mom decided that the most nurturing respond would be to yell at her
for using profanity in response to said messages; then Meier ran
upstairs and hanged herself.
As long as we're blaming people for upsetting the suicidal, isn't
the Mom's starting of a fight the more proximate cause then the
abusive messages?
dhex|11.18.08 @ 10:08AM|#
you know, some people don't realize just how shady the
"Dateline: TCAP" stuff is.
it'd definitely shady, but so is showing up at the house with the
wine coolers. douche chills all around.
The Angry Optimist|11.18.08 @ 10:22AM|#
Guy - when I was thinking of this in terms of comparative negligence, I'd put Drew (at most!) 5% at fault. MO is a pure Comp. Neg. state, so there would be damages, but Meier's parents were 95% negligent here.
The Angry Optimist|11.18.08 @ 10:23AM|#
dhex - definitely. "TCAP" doesn't bother me too much, except for the "takedowns" by police, which are so overly-dramatic they might as well be called "LiveJournal-style arrests".
dhex|11.18.08 @ 10:39AM|#
they do tend to act like the guy is 12 feet tall and has
superpowers, rather than some sad humbert wannabe whose only
superpower is touching girls who have barely had periods.
baffling.
|11.18.08 @ 10:44AM|#
I'd say the Corey Maye case is a better litmus test for
libertarians.
Corey Maye shouldn't even me a test. That one is too
easy.
Agreed, Corey Maye is a test for, low-life-cop-fetishisizing-looser
vs not one, not specific enough for a libertarian litmus.
Lori Drew on the other hand has all the elements, an emotional
response, no laws broken, a railroading prosecutor, a new law
possibly being passed, and the crazy-teen suicide, I'd say this one
is much better at weeding out those who consider themselves
libertarian only because their sacred cow hasn't been slaughtered
yet.
Also, most of you, at least judging by past comments, don't think
the state should be in the vengeance business, right? Thats why
many here oppose capital punishment? This is nothing if not an
example of a vengeance prosecution.
Tell me what purpose is it going to serve if she is convicted, is
it going to rehabilitate Lori Drew because she is at risk of
re-offending? Is it going to be a deterrent to all others who've
ever cause emotional distress to someone else? "Well you never
know, we have to be really nice to that guy, else he might off
himself and we might end up in jail?"
Oh I know, this will stop everyone from using fake identities on
the intertubes, and thats the only reason this prosecution is going
ahead. Why "The Wine Commonsewer", "Episiarch", "The Angry
Optimist" and others, I bet those aren't event your real
names...you evil bitches.
The Angry Optimist|11.18.08 @ 10:47AM|#
"The Angry Optimist" and others, I bet those aren't event
your real names...you evil bitches.
*cries silently and runs off to get a belt and a
chair*.
|11.18.08 @ 10:54AM|#
"TCAP" doesn't bother me too much, except for the
"takedowns" by police
Word. I've only seen that show occasionally, but as I recall the
host says "you're free to go" to create the impression that the
perp is off the hook, just so the police outside can tackle him, as
if he's trying to escape. What the fuck?
|11.18.08 @ 11:00AM|#
And another thing about TCAP, it's clear that the only reason
that the perp is taking Chris Hansen's shit, is because he thinks
he's a cop.
So along with all the other laws that cops can break, add the law
against letting someone impersonate a police officer.
dhex|11.18.08 @ 11:03AM|#
well, maybe not the only reason - there are the cameras and the
lights and the whole reading of the riot act. they look genuinely
shocked, which makes me wonder how much kiddie diddlin' these
people really do get down to.
all it takes is some wine coolers and a dream, i guess.
easy umbrage taker|11.18.08 @ 1:17PM|#
I am sure thee is a tort
Well, so's yer old man, Shakespeare!
Salvius|11.18.08 @ 1:49PM|#
Wouldn't saying "I knew she was 18 and just pretending to be
younger all along, I'm into that kind of thing" be a bulletproof
defense there? Obviously in practice this doesn't work, but why
not?
IIRC, that is actually explicitly disallowed as a defense,
either in the relevant statute, or in the case law surrounding it.
Unfortunately, I can't remember where I read that.
speculating layman|11.18.08 @ 1:52PM|#
Because then you could also say you were only pretending to rob the bank?
Pendulum|11.18.08 @ 3:26PM|#
Almost every statement of purported law in this thread is emphatically wrong. For example, intentional infliction of emotional distress is an intentional tort that has nothing to do with negligence.
T.K.|11.19.08 @ 12:35PM|#
If you have alchohol in your home and knew that a teenage drank it, would you turn your head just because they knew better, and then let them get into a car and become involved in a fatal accident. Just act like you did not know and you'll be in the right. She knew not to taunt this child, and maybe she did not know exactly what the end result would be but she was negligent in the fact that she did not care. All chickens come home to roost, I hope that her children never meet someone like her that will mess with their heads.
|11.19.08 @ 9:18PM|#
Whether Lori Drew committed a crime or not is beside the point.
The point is that this little persnickety issue of a trial is
taking up time and money for her and her family. It is derailing
any actual plans or employment that Lori Drew once entertained.
Heck, the bitch can't even change her name or move without being
tracked and hounded to the ends of the earth. Being a douchebag may
not be a crime, but being on the receiving end of a million angry
people dispensing poetic internet justice sure makes prison look
good.
::giggle::
|11.20.08 @ 1:17AM|#
Ya noe it dont matter if i commited a legel crime or knot.. i deserv everiething i get from an society thats angry at wut i done. if the law says i didnt do no crime but i did do a crime then f*ck the law! the rite thing to do is for my @ss to get sued into bankruptsy kort and me an my friends to go somewhere were theres no Twinkies(R)!!! Aaaarrrgghhh!!! Dont keep me away from the twikies!! Anything but thata!!!!!
|11.20.08 @ 9:40PM|#
Ship her to prison in cold Alaska, make her work 12 hours a day 6 days a week pumping oil without any kind of pay at all, (she can have Sunday off for Church, cause she sure needs it).
|11.21.08 @ 8:47AM|#
Bottom line is that this woman is an adult and should know
better. She is supposed to set an example for young people.
Would we say she is not guilty if it was any of our daughters and
they were basically "standing at the edge of a cliff, thinking
about suicide". If someone, in any way, either physically or
verbally prods them to jump...are any of us going to say "oh well
you had nothing to do with my daughter jumping to her death, the
problem was already there." I really doubt anyone here would
overlook that. Basically, in other terms that's what happened here.
The problem may have already existed with this young girl, but for
an adult, or anyone, to do anything to help her along is deplorable
and should have some consequence.
Erin|11.21.08 @ 9:08AM|#
Umm....the term 'Delete Friend' keeps running through my head. Why did this teenager keep this BULLY as a friend? I'm sorry, but she didn't have to read any of the messages or comments from Lori. Megan killed herself, end of story! What is there to prove here, besides wasting time and money! Yes, Lori, as an adult, was stupid for doing what she did, but come on, accept the facetthat each person is responsible for their own actions. Megan had many choices, she chose to have a Myspace, she chose to read the bullying bullshit, she chose to let it bother her, and she chose to end her life.
|11.21.08 @ 10:27AM|#
Lori Drew is a sad, miserable sick woman. I feel certain she has been a failure most of her life and is simply an angry bitter woman....the one who should be pitied is her daughter for having been raised by such a miserable wretch
cb|11.21.08 @ 3:43PM|#
Lori Drew who is purported to be a adult used her means to
perpetrated a chain of events that lead to a child committing
suicide. For that act, Lori Drew needs to be punished.
It is unfortunate that our lawmakers were not envisioned enough to
have a law on the books that would reflect the seriousness of this
act and provide appropriate punishment. But they, like I, never
would have thought an adult, a mother, would stoop to something so
low.
Therefore, I am relieved that the Federal Prosecutors found a way
to prosecute Lori Drew and hopefully provide a place for her to
live for the next 20 years to reflect on her actions.
I am less concerned about the legal wrangling that is being cited
and more concerned that Lori Drew receives adequate punishment for
her act and that the message be sent that this type of act will not
go unpunished in our society.
|11.21.08 @ 11:31PM|#
This young girl had some choices, but she also had some emotional issues too that made those choices alot more complicated. People don't just choose to have those issues or not have them. You don't just turn that off. This adult went after a young girl whom she knew had emotional trouble. Its reported that people in the community knew that. Why do you think she said things like "the world would be a better place without you"? This woman knew the young girls parents...she knew what was going on and she took advantage of a young person with problems, rather than understand the situation, or God forbid, try and help. Drew should be in alot of pain and so should anyone else who take advantage of a child.
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