The Friday Political Thread: Spooky Scary Edition

The Week in Brief
- Barack Obama went all Ross Perot on you.
- Bob Barr met Ralph Nader in rhetorical combat.
- Michael the Blogger got his 15 minutes.
- Reasonoids declared their votes.

As of right now, Electoral-Vote.com gives Obama a 364-171 lead with North Dakota a tie, and Pollster.com gives Obama a 311-142 lead.

Below the Fold
- Robert Stacy McCain predicts the pundit spin.
- Michael Brendan Dougherty gets sexy.
- A Daily Kos diarist warns against Dem optimism, citing... Daily Kos diaries from four years back.
- Jim Geraghty analyzes the early vote. (He's done a lot of this, so keep on scrolling.)

As we get ready to choose our leader, here's a song about a terrifying monarch.

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  • Neu Mejican||

    More Halloween appropriate music

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I59-LZVRmYM

  • Reasonable||

    Strangely, nothing on the massive and illegal invasion of privacy Joe The Plumber suffered after having the audacity to ask Obama a tough question, which we're now learning was more extensive than first admitted and has already led to one charge of Gross Misconduct.

    If he was a suspected terrorist, Reason would be all over this, but apparently the editorial staff are not letting a little thing like actual violations of civil liberties intended to suppress free speech get in the way of electing their beloved socialist.

  • Neu Mejican||

    Reasonable,

    http://swampbubbles.com/20081028/julie-mcconnell-charged-gross-misconduct-accessing-joe-plumbers-files

    So what are you upset about?

    That the person who broke the rules is quickly identified and punished for possible civil rights violations?

    Seems like an example of the proper role of government...to have a rule forbidding this kind of behavior that have some teeth.

  • NM Copy editor||

    a rule ... has some

    rules ...have some

    Your pick

  • Orange Line Special||

    Announcing: The Reason Challenge!

    Reason should create a post discussing all or almost all of my reasons not to vote for Obama, making sure to be as intellectually honest as possible. Then, they should indicate why they still support BHO.

    Is Reason up for the Challenge? I'm almost positive they aren't.

  • SIV||

    FWIW I'm not voting in the general election this year--same as 2004.I'm out of town on election day and "early voting" has made it difficult to absentee vote without waiting in an hours long line.It took me 10 minutes to vote in the Primary.I was in town this week and tried to early vote 3 times.The first 2 had a 1.5+ hour wait and I didn't have the time or desire to wait.I finally decided it would be worth casting a vote for LP Candidate Buckley in the GA Senate race as I was part of the "historic vote" in 1992 in which LP voters forced the candidates into a runoff that flipped Wyche Fowler's Senate seat to Republican Paul Coverdell.I took off from work to find a 5 hour line complete with local TV news and Fire trucks.Fuck it. I'm not consenting to be governed.I'll retain my right to not abide by the outcome.Feels kinda good to be a "principled non-voter".

  • Geotpf||

    SIV-Couldn't you have voted absentee (that is, by mail)?

  • ||

    Announcing: The Reason Challenge!

    Announcing: The Orange Line Special Challenge!

    Lonewacko should STFU on the pages of H&R until after the election.

    Is LoneWacko up to the challenge? I'm almost positive he isn't.

  • ||

    Announcing: The Lonewacko Challenge!

    Lonewacko should quit spamming H&R generally, and the Friday political thread specifically, with his mindless, self-indulgent horseshit.

    Is Lonewacko up for the Challenge? There's virtually no chance the rest of us could be so lucky.

  • ||

    Ooh - competing challenges for Lonewacko! How exciting!

  • ||

    Great song Dave. Even better that this version has prog rock royalty: John Wetton, Chester Thompson and Steve Hackett in it.

  • joe||

    Barack Obama gets your whites whiter.

    Barack Obama works your abs, lats, and glutes - in one easy motion!

    Barack Obama clears away hardened soap scum in seconds. Look at that shine!

    Barack Obama is made of a space-age miracle fiber, developed by NASA, that never needs ironing.

    *gasp* You're not going to put acid on Barack Obama, are you?!? Wow, look at how Barack Obama protects the finish!

  • Bingo||

    BARACK HUSSEIN OSAMA

  • Mad Max||

    "some conservative Catholics have proposed Halloween alternatives for their children, like All Saints Parties - in commemoration of their actual feast day. This sounds good in theory, but I can imagine it getting screwy in practice. Little Bobby, 9, says, "I'm King Louis IX of France, a model of the Christian Knight." (Sounds like a blast, already) Then Mary Grace, 11, 'I'm Saint Agatha, my breasts were cut off by Quintian. And now they are on this plate. Look!' Good luck with that."

    OMG, how dare those Catholics to try to appropriate this sacred holiday, which is the eve of All Saints Day - uh, whoops, I mean, is a sacred day for indulging our horror fantasies.

    If you want horror, then you can't do much better than to look at the life of Saint Agatha, as indicated in this link from the Church's official calendar of saints:

    "THE cities of Palermo and Catana, in Sicily, dispute the honor of her birth: but they do much better who, by copying her virtues, and claiming her patronage, strive to become her fellow-citizens in heaven. It is agreed that she received the crown of martyrdom at Catana, in the persecution of Decius, in the third consulship of that prince, in the year of our Lord. She was of a rich and illustrious family, and having been consecrated to God from her tender years, triumphed over many assaults upon her chastity. Quintianus, a man of consular dignity, bent on gratifying both his lust and avarice, imagined he should easily compass his wicked designs on Agatha's person and estate, by means of the emperor's edict against the Christians. He therefore caused her to be apprehended and brought before him at Catana. Seeing herself in the hands of the persecutors, she made this prayer: "Jesus Christ, Lord of all things, you see my heart, you know my desire: possess alone all that I am. I am your sheep, make me worthy to overcome the devil." She wept, and prayed for courage and strength all the way she went. On her appearance, Quintianus gave orders for her being put into the hands of Aphrodisia, a most wicked woman, who with six daughters, all prostitutes, kept a common stew. The saint suffered in this infamous place, assaults and stratagems against her virtue, infinitely more terrible to her than any tortures or death itself. But placing her confidence in God, she never ceased with sighs and most earnest tears to implore his protection, and by it was an overmatch for all their hellish attempts, the whole month she was there. Quintianus being informed of her constancy after thirty days, ordered her to be brought before him. The virgin, in her first interrogatory, told him, that to be a servant of Jesus Christ was the most illustrious nobility, and true liberty. The judge, offended at her resolute answers, commanded her to be buffeted, and led to prison. She entered it with great joy, recommending her future conflict to God. The next day she was arraigned a second time at the tribunal, and answered with equal constancy that Jesus Christ was her life and her salvation. Quintianus then ordered her to be stretched on the rack, which torment was usually accompanied with stripes, the tearing of the sides with iron hooks, and burning them with torches or matches. The governor, enraged to see her suffer all this with cheerfulness, commanded her breast to be tortured, and afterwards to be cut off. At which she made him this reproach: 'Cruel tyrant, do you not blush to torture this part of my body, you that sucked the breasts of a woman yourself?' He remanded her to prison with a severe order, that neither salves nor food should be allowed her. But God would be himself her physician, and the apostle St. Peter in a vision comforted her, healed all her wounds, and filled her dungeon with a heavenly light. Quintianus, four days after, not the least moved at the miraculous cure of her wounds, caused her to be rolled naked over live coals mixed with broken potsherds. Being carried back to prison, she made this prayer: 'Lord, my Creator, you have ever protected me from the cradle. You have taken from me the love of the world, and given me patience to suffer: receive now my soul.' After which words she sweetly gave up the ghost."

    Yeah, that stuff is boring - much better to dress up as Supergirl or Sailor Moon, or Batman (like the people I've seen around my way).

  • Kolohe||

    "Marxism. It's made in Germany and you know they make good stuff. Camera guy are you following me here?"

  • joe||

    "BARACK HUSSEIN OSAMA"

    Minor quibble: it's "Barack HUSSEIN Obama."

    They write middle names in ALL CAPS over there in Kenyastan.

  • SIV||

    I could have absentee voted if I applied way early by mail.Once the early voting starts the line is the same for an application.I used to vote exclusively by mail but then they offered absentee voting at the registrar's office.There are no lines for Primaries and off years.I forgot what happens now with early voting and no absentee declaration required.Fuck it.I've always advocated not voting even though I'll vote in a schol bond referendum (always against).I'm just going to practice what I preach from now on.

  • ||

    Halloween Obama: http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/33500/Obama-The-Demon--33963.jpg

  • BDB||

    The primary race turned out to be more exciting than the general.

  • SIV||

    Happy Halloween
    or Samhain for you Pagans

    I'm off to have fun.

  • ||

    Saint Aggie is both the patron saint of lunatics (why she is my favorite) and the patron saint of bell makers. Why bell makers? Because in iconography, the breasts on the platter looked like brass bells.

  • ||

    Great song Dave. Even better that this version has prog rock royalty: John Wetton, Chester Thompson and Steve Hackett in it.

    Yeah, great stuff alright. Would've thought that Goblin would've been the prog band for halloween though.

  • Elemenope||

    Mad Max,

    You have to admit that some of the saints got offed in pretty fucked up ways.

    And most of those stories are NOT G-rated.

  • See The Reason Challenge!||

    Eric G writes:
    Halloween Obama: http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/33500/Obama-The-Demon--33963.jpg

    That's a photoshop, right?

  • Joel||

    When the election is over, can we stop talking about the election? Please? I want to know what it's like not to throw up in my mouth a little every time I hear two names.

    And LoneWhacko's challenge ... I mean, why not? Whatdahell else you got to do this weekend? Oh, wait ... my sock drawer ...

  • Kolohe||

    On her appearance, Quintianus gave orders for her being put into the hands of Aphrodisia, a most wicked woman, who with six daughters, all prostitutes, kept a common stew

    Bow chicka wow-wow.

    The saint suffered in this infamous place, assaults and stratagems against her virtue, infinitely more terrible to her than any tortures or death itself.

    "Please, I can defeat them. There's only seven of them. Let me go back there and face the temptation. Look, it's my duty as a saint to sample as much temptation as I can"

    (BTW googling for the phrase 'kept a common stew' only gives versions of this story. I'm still trying to figure out hat was Butler trying to say here. That a woman living with her six daughters was immoral? Or that he was just saying 'they lived together' in a fancy way and the fact they were all slutty was the problem?)

  • Mad Max||

    "You have to admit that some of the saints got offed in pretty fucked up ways."

    And if they'd only gone along with the crowd, they could have avoided such tortuous deaths, and could have died peacefully in their beds instead. What was wrong with these people? I guess their teachers gave them bad marks in the "Plays Well With Others" category.

  • Mad Max||

    Kolohe,

    In Butler's day, "stew" meant brothel.

    In those far-off days, being forced to work in a brothel was considered shameful and disgraceful.

  • joe||

    Kolohe,

    Common woman is an archaic term for prostitute.

    Keeping the stew, mistress of the house?

    Maybe it means madam.

  • Mad Max||

    The prosecutors shared this view, since the judge, Quintianus, put St. Agatha in a brothel *as a punishment* to encourage her to abandon Christianity. Quintianus was not doing some kind of job-placement service as a favor.

  • Elemenope||

    No, Mad Max, you're missing the point. I'm not criticizing the ways in which God saw fit to bump off his favored witnesses. I'm saying that their traditions and stories are probably not the best substitute for a holiday consecrated by candy for eight-year-olds.

    In short:

    Saints? Cool.

    All Saint's Day as a good kid-friendly substitute for Halloween? Retarded.

  • Elemenope||

    "Please, I can defeat them. There's only seven of them. Let me go back there and face the temptation. Look, it's my duty as a saint to sample as much temptation as I can"

    Too much peril.

  • Mad Max||

    LMNOP,

    You're right, better to watch Friday the 13th, Part XXXVII, and dress up as Freddy Krueger.

  • Kenneth||

    Prostitutes? Wow! This discussion just got way more interesting. I was getting way to bored reading about saints and voting and stuff.

  • BDB||

    I thought evangelicals were the ones who had the problem with Halloween (saying it's form Satan and whatnot).

  • Mad Max||

    "substitute for Halloween"

    Substitute? Remember who *invented* Halloween in the first place.

    "I thought evangelicals were the ones who had the problem with Halloween (saying it's form Satan and whatnot)."

    Nothing wrong with disguising yourself at this season of the year . . . which also happens to be election season.

  • BDB||

    There was this one house when I was growing up that would give out Chick Tracts instead of candy. I hated that house.

  • Mad Max||

    Those who reject the *eve* of All Saints Day probably reject All Saints Day, as well, because they reject the idea of venerating saints.

    Or else they reject God, which is just another step along the same continuum.

  • Mad Max||

    And people who reject Halloween probably reject Lenten fasting, meaning that they would necessarily reject Fat Tuesday as well.

    You cut out much of the meaning of Fat Tuesday if it isn't the eve of a great fast.

    You reject much of the meaning of All Saints' Day if you reject All Saints' Eve.

    Screw the Protestants and their spiritual descendants, the secularists.

  • Just Plain Brian||

  • Protestant||

    This is for Mad Max.

  • Mad Max||

    Protestant,

    I am familiar with Jack Chick's work.

  • ||

    Mad Max is an elaborate Neil-esque internet parody, right?

  • Mad Max||

    dbcooper,

    Sorry to break into the conversations of you normal people.

    By the way, I hope your parachute opened properly.

  • ||

    "Mad Max is an elaborate Neil-esque internet parody, right?"

    Nah, he's just a bit of a "single issue voter" (except for mackerel snapping instead of cockfighting), and he often likes to adopt a tone of condescending righteous indignation when he perceives any slights against religion, especially his One True Church. To be fair, it's sometimes in response to comparably obnoxious atheists; but sometimes it's out of the blue and kind of bizarre.

  • pseudonymous Chuck Baldwin||

    I was there too!

  • ||

    Dale Cooper is currently trapped in the Black Lodge. It is his doppleganger which posts here under that name.

  • ||

    Mad Max
    I'm an athiest now but was Protestant for years.

    If you're arguing Catholicism over Protestantism I can say screw you and your hierachial, dogmatic, non-individualistic power hungry religion.


    Catholicism gave us Halloween (good) but also the Inquisition. Protestantism gave us capitalism, individualism and freedom.

    I like Halloween but I could live without it.

  • ||

    Dale Cooper is currently trapped in the Black Lodge. It is his doppleganger which posts here under that name.

    And thus the thread was restored to brilliance. We were playing black lodge themed tracks (Fan Death!) all day in the lab today (as well as lots of John Carpenter, Goblin, etc), so that comment was extra good.

  • Elemenope||

    You're right, better to watch Friday the 13th, Part XXXVII

    Yeah, because obviously if you aren't teaching your kids to venerate the saints, you must be letting them watch vapid ultra-violent rated-R movies which entertain with portrayals of serial murder.

    WTF is wrong with you? The world is not divided into black and white, most choices are not binary, and most non-Catholics are not Satan worshippers.

  • ||

    The opening theme and Laura's theme were great parts of Twin Peaks, which was great in so many other ways as well...

  • Pendulum||

    Kay Hagan: She hid from cameras. Took Godless Money.

    WHAT DID HAGAN PROMISE IN RETURN????!?!?!?

  • Mad Max||

    "most non-Catholics are not Satan worshippers."

    Really? Then I guess it's a good thing I didn't say they were.

    Wait, perhaps that answer isn't emotionally satisfying for you, so let me say instead . . . throw some more wood on the fire, Ma, we're gonna burn us some heretics! Then we're gonna build a tunnel under the Atlantic Ocean so the Pope can have direct access to the White House . . . and you'll never guess what we're gonna do to the Merovingians!

  • Mad Max||

    MNG,

    "Protestantism gave us capitalism, individualism and freedom."

    Let Rodney Stark expand your mind.

    Yes, he blames monotheism for witch-panics (we all know that pagan/animist cultures don't persecute purported witches), but he links the Scientific Revolution ™ to Christian culture in general, not just to Christian culture post-1517.

  • Fluffy||

    Those who reject the *eve* of All Saints Day probably reject All Saints Day, as well, because they reject the idea of venerating saints.

    Or else they reject God, which is just another step along the same continuum.


    Polytheist.

    [Snort.]

    Probably an idolator as well.

    [Snort.]

  • ||

    The opening theme and Laura's theme were great parts of Twin Peaks, which was great in so many other ways as well...

    Audrey's theme, and that dance she did with the one leg and the spectator shoes ...

    We watched the opening of Argento's Suspira today - best use of colour this side of Ben Horne and the "new girl" entering the vaginal folds of the corridor in One Eyed Jack's.

  • Elemenope||

    Mad Max,

    Perhaps you were just being too nuanced for me and you weren't implying that parents who don't teach about the saints on Halloween are necessarily sending their kids out imitating a serial killer.

    You and your subtleties. Gosh.

  • Mad Max||

    LMNOP,

    Again, we are the folks who *invented* Halloween. Objecting to All Saints' Eve would be like objecting to Christmas Eve.

    Naturally, that doesn't mean that I give my Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval to *everything* that people do on All Hallows Eve, any more that I endorse everything people do on Christmas Eve office parties. But the, they don't ask my approval, do they, so the question doesn't arise.

    People who celebrate All Hallows Eve without celebrating All Saints Day are . . . curious, like if they celebrated Christmas Eve without celebrating Christmas. But to each his own.

    If conservative Catholics want to celebrate All Hallows Eve by having kids dress up as saints, how on earth is that worse than having them dress up as Sarah Palin? Anyway, it's our holiday, so we celebrate is how we want.

  • ||

    Mad Max

    Yeah, science and individualism and capitalism just happened to take off exponentially when Luther et al offered the Western world an alternative to the Catholic Church which was and still largely is a large, hiearchial, collectivist, dogma loving, centralized bureaucratic organization.

    The Reformation itself, just its occurring must have been great for breaking up authority and for the individual because now there would be actual competition for mens souls allowing them some choice and alternative. Its specific tenents promoted individualism, capitalism, rationalization (each man reading the Bible themselves and going to God directly [remember the great translators into national tongues from Latin was a Protestant thing] rather than having "the Church" as the intermediary, the rejection of Catholic superstition and adornment [the bones of the saints, their shroud, the imagery, etc.] and rationalization of religion advocated by the Protestants, the Protestant Work Ethic, the repeal of usury laws, etc.).

  • Mad Max||

    MNG,

    You really might want to take a look at Stark's work. He's not what I'd call a Catholic apologist, and I'm not saying he's always fair to the Church. But he doesn't have an ingrained Catholic-bashing reflex, which in the realm of academia means that he's virtually a Papist stooge.

    The economic revolution in Europe predated the Reformation, and occurred in places where the Reformation was fended off successfully. Flanders - what we know as Belgium - was an economic powerhouse, and stayed in the Catholic camp. Consider the Italian bankers - no Protestants, they. The Florentines were not exactly Calvinist militants, either.

  • Fluffy||

    Um, the Catholics didn't invent Halloween. They superimposed All Hallows Eve on top of an already-existing pagan festival, much as they did for Christmas.

    Halloween is the Catholic Beatlemania version of Samhain.

  • Fluffy||

    Max is also offering the argument that the strict monotheism of Protestants - who don't indulge in Mary-worship, Saint-worship, Relic-Fetishry, Icon-Fetishry, etc. like the Catholics and the various Orthodox churches - are somehow less spiritual and more secular as a result.

    This continuum of his makes absolutely no sense, when you consider the fact that Judaism and Islam are even more radically monotheistic than the Protestants. Anyone want to argue that Islam is spiritually related to secularism? Hmmm?

  • Mad Max||

    Much of the economic dynamism of Protestant communities came from hard-core Calvinists. These folks were not proto-libertarians by any stretch of the imagination. They made Catholics look like hippie beatnik skeptics. With the enthusiasm of a new religiuos movement, the Calvininsts addressed the problem of man's eternal destiny by claiming that the universe was a vast Publishers' Clearinghouse Sweepstakes, where God *arbitrarily* pre-selected a few people to be saved, without any role for human free will. Calvinist merchants sought evidence that they were among the few sweepstakes winners, and they sought that evidence in their worldly success - a sign of God's blessing.

    After a few generations, the enthusiasm of the Calvinists, like the enthusiasm of new religious movements in general, waned, and the descendants of Calvinists can today be found clamoring for the government to relieve them of individual responsibility. Thus, even by their own standards of worldly success, the Calvinists failed - and in any event, I don't see how these Calvinists can be cited by libertarians (many of whom are, shall we say, skeptics) as their forebears.

    The first few generations of Calvinists included very rich merchants in the Netherlands, England, and Massachusetts. The first flowering of Calvinist culture showed great promise - not that libertarians should take comfort from this, because (a) the Calvinists were not libertarians, and hated secularists, and (b) they were unable to sustain their culture over the long term.

  • Mad Max||

    "Um, the Catholics didn't invent Halloween. They superimposed All Hallows Eve on top of an already-existing pagan festival, much as they did for Christmas."

    Oh, sorry, I will be happy to surrender Halloween into the hands of the pagan high-priest who is the true successor of the old pagans.

    What - no such high priest exists? Only some "neo-pagan" movements dating back no further than the 20th century? Then I guess we have the superior claim. So sorry.

  • joe||

    Don't make me side with Mad Max, Prods.

    I'lll do it. I'm warning you.

    I've been to mass once since Spring, but I swear to God, I'll side with Mad Max.

    And he won't even call me a Cafeteria Catholic until we're done kicking your ass.

  • ||

    Somewhere, LoneJagoff and Time Cube Guy are making sweet honey love.

  • cunnivore||

    Mr Nice Guy,

    Ah, so that's why northern Germany, Bohemia, and Sweden were such hotbeds of capitalism and individual freedom after the Reformation! I guess all those witch burnings in Protestant countries were just an illusion perpetrated by popish infiltrators.

    You're talking about England, then. Which was a Catholic country when the Magna Carta was signed, and the framework for English liberty laid down. And the same country that raped Ireland in the name of the Reformation, and exported that wonderful brand of scientific rationalism that led to the Salem Witch Trials.

    And the scientific revolution took place mostly in Catholic countries like Italy and France.

  • cunnivore||

    Oh, sorry, I will be happy to surrender Halloween into the hands of the pagan high-priest who is the true successor of the old pagans.

    Considering your ancestors in faith persecuted the Celtic pagans and burned Druids at the stake, it's not really sporting to gloat that they're not around any more. All Saints Day was established as Nov. 1 long before the papacy was aware of the Celtic Halloween, too. It was just a fortunate coincidence, not the result of some cunning plan by the pope.

  • JLE||

    I object to holidays. I do appreciate the change of the season, but that happens every year. Government dictated holidays aren't necessary to people who experience true freedom.

  • ||

    Both the reformation and renaissance were movements towards individualism, but I would say it's a mistake to assume either was the cause of the other. I think they arose because a variety of factors led to an emergent merchant class in western Europe, which was more individualistic in thinking.

  • cunnivore||

    You guys are making up history as you go along. The Reformation had zilch to do with individualism.

    Sure, they said that you could read the Bible yourself, and trust that the Holy Spirit would lead you to correct beliefs. The corollary of which was, if you disagreed with Luther or whoever your local church dictator happened to be, you obviously must not be obeying the Holy Spirit, perhaps even in league with Satan. Just because Protestant church leaders were married and not called "Father" doesn't mean they weren't jealous of their power.

    I'm not trying to excuse the Catholic Church, believe me. They've got loads of blood on their hands too. But some of you are polishing the halo of Protestantism a bit too much.

  • Fluffy||

    What - no such high priest exists? Only some "neo-pagan" movements dating back no further than the 20th century? Then I guess we have the superior claim. So sorry.

    What kind of non-argument is this?

    You said you invented it. That makes continuity of a particular religious experience irrelevant. You either invented it, or you did not. Every single last historical fact between the point of "invention" and today - including the extinction of other religious movements - is irrelevant to that question.

    There are no worshippers of Sol Invictus around around any more, either. But that doesn't mean you invented the winter solstice celebration.

  • Fluffy||

    With regard to the Protestant vs. Catholic discussion, I think that theories giving Protestantism credit for later cultural advantages because of its doctrines have always been overblown.

    I think the content of Protestantism was much less important than its mere existence. The disintegration of religious orthodoxy helped create a chaos of authority in which innovative thought could thrive. The mere fact that one could cross a border and evade a particular religious authority helped create shifting pockets of liberty of thought in Europe. The destruction caused by religious warfare was also partially offset by the fact that small states could play both multiple sides of the religious dispute[s] against each other to maintain independence of action. Someone mentioned the Netherlands above; how much more difficult did it become for various imperial figures to try to control the Netherlands once religion became an item of contention there?

  • ||

    LOL, you are right! That is pretty spooky for sure. Good one guys, good one indeed.

    Jif
    http://www.Privacy-Center.net

  • ||

    fluffy
    "I think the content of Protestantism was much less important than its mere existence."

    I said so as much in the first sentence of my argument for the individualizing effect of the Protestants:

    "The Reformation itself, just its occurring must have been great for breaking up authority and for the individual because now there would be actual competition for mens souls allowing them some choice and alternative."

    Also it's too simplistic to say the Puritans were not libertarians because, you know what awful prigs the Puritans were. The Puritans had some problemts, but the logic of their beliefs also helped create and foster the beginnings of many important freedoms. Take this Puritan document, one of the first examples of limited government in the New World:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_Body_of_Liberties

    The Puritan and Protestant nations eventually evolved in very free and capitalistic nations (take England, the Netherlands, and eventually the US). Capitalism was retarded in strong Catholic outposts like Spain and Portugal while absolutism seemed more natural in those nations too (and you can add France to that one).

    Another major key imo is that the Protestant Reformation involved many groups that were decentralized either relatively to the Catholic Church or in absolute terms (Congregationalists, Baptists, etc). That allowed a kind of "public choice" of religious authority to occur where you could vote with your feet and go to another congregation independent of the others.

  • Fluffy||

    http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE49U82620081031

    According to this article, Obama's 10 year old daughter dressed up as an "evil fairy" for Halloween.

    I didn't know they made Bill Kristol costumes that small.

  • ||

    "Just because Protestant church leaders were married and not called "Father" doesn't mean they weren't jealous of their power."

    Oh sure cunny, I agree, and I'll even add that the present tense fits there too (that is current Protestant church leaders are often jealous of their authority).

    However, the logic behind Protestantism in general (that you can leave the big moribound church and set up one of your own, because you can read the Bible and decide things for yourself and can be saved directly absent the intervention of "the church" and the independent congregational style of many Protestants allowing you to vote with your feet) undermined even this authority. Check out Kai Erickson's work on the Puritans for comments about how these guys were surely no libertarians but how the logic of their theology just kept producing dissent and later accomodation (Anne Hutchinson, Roger Williams, the Quakers, etc., in Puritan New England to name a few).

  • ||

    fluffy
    That was great.

    You know, I've seen some performances by David Brooks (on C-Span at a Cato event and on the PBS election coverage my elitist self watches) where I'm warming to him. He's still got the hack in him, but maybe less so lately or never to the same extent as Kristol.

    But I'll only warm to that gleeful demon Kristol in the flames of hell. Like his dad I often think he's on the take.

  • ||

    It isn't really a coincedence that two different cultures have rituals in harvest season near the equinox.

  • ||

    J sub D | October 31, 2008, 6:40pm | #

    Announcing: The Reason Challenge!

    Announcing: The Orange Line Special Challenge!

    Lonewacko should STFU on the pages of H&R until after the election

    Is LoneWacko up to the challenge? I'm almost positive he isn't..



    Sparky | October 31, 2008, 6:40pm | #

    Announcing: The Lonewacko Challenge!

    Lonewacko should quit spamming H&R generally, and the Friday political thread specifically, with his mindless, self-indulgent horseshit.

    Is Lonewacko up for the Challenge? There's virtually no chance the rest of us could be so lucky.



    Note the date/time tags. Awesome.

  • ||

    There was this one house when I was growing up that would give out Chick Tracts instead of candy. I hated that house.

    Please tell me the house was egged on a regular basis. Please.

  • BDB||

    J Sub--


    We TP'd that house once. I don't know about any eggings.

  • BDB||

    With regards to Protestantism vs. Catholicism, even as an agnostic I'd much rather have my neighbor me a fundie Catholic than a fundie Evangelical Protestant.

  • ||

    Oh boy, A macker snapper vs. heretic fight! This should be better than Monday Night Raw.
    I was raised Roman Catholic, I've since disavowed such superstition, but it has given me at least one good line to use from time to time.

    When approached by protestant evangelicals, this rolls so easily off my tongue
    I'm a member of Roman Catholic Church, the one true faith, founded by our lord Jesus through the Peter the apostle. You are heretic condemned to Hell unless you renounce your ways and return to the only true Christian faith.
    Works every time. For some reason (St. Bartholomew's Day massacre?) protestants actually fear Catholics.

  • BDB||

    J sub--

    Evangelical fundies on street corners is one of the many reasons I have my iPod on when walking through the city.

  • Elemenope||

    With regards to Protestantism vs. Catholicism, even as an agnostic I'd much rather have my neighbor me a fundie Catholic than a fundie Evangelical Protestant.

    Word. Catholics may be all tricked-out with ritual and idols, but they have a religious commitment to try to not be douches (good works, and all that). Protestants (excluding Anglicans of most varieties) seem harder edged.

    Like Catholics are Starbursts and Protestants are Now & Laters.

    Metaphorically.

  • ||

    Wow.

    Life really is like a box of chocolates.

  • ||

    Life really is like a box of chocolates.
    Nay nay, uninformed one,

    ♪Life is a Cabaret, old chum,
    Come to the Cabaret!♪

  • TallDave||

    So today we find out Obama's aunt is in the U.S. illegally, donated to Obama's campagn illegally, and illegally received governemnt assistance (which is probably what she illegally donated to Obama). I can only assume she also plans to illegally vote for him as well. ACORN has probably illegally registered her five or six times by now.

    Heh, really sums Obama's campaign nicely.

    Nevertheless, I expect the media will still drag him across the finish line, even though some polls now have McCain ahead.

  • Doodad Pro||

    Come on, if you're going to illegally donate to Obama, at least use a fake credit card.

    Standards, people, standards!

  • ||

    Oh boy, A macker snapper vs. heretic fight! This should be better than Monday Night Raw.
    I was raised Roman Catholic, I've since disavowed such superstition, but it has given me at least one good line to use from time to time.

    When approached by protestant evangelicals, this rolls so easily off my tongue


    As an ex-Mormon, I've found that it works being waaaaay too enthusiastic about inviting those who show up at my doorstep to come in and hear the good word about the Prophet Joseph Smith so they won't go to the lesser heaven.

    Or, depending on my mood, saying I'm in the middle of a orgy, but hey, you're pretty good looking, want to come inside and *wink wink* let me cum inside?

    Or a bland, thank you, but I'm already Saved, but if you give me your name and address I can send you some literature about the One True Church and save you from perdition.

    Some day I'm gonna get taken up on one of these deadpan chivvyings, but so far they've ended the solicitations quickly.

    Sometimes I'm nice and give them a 'no thank you', if they seem sweet and not the aggressive dickish sort.

  • ||

    I didn't mean to suggest that 16th century protestants were radical individualists. Such beasts did not occur until the early 19th century. But on a spectrum that runs from individualism to collectivism, the rise of a merchant class created a minor shift in the direction of individualism, to the point that a bunch of sheep suddenly started questioning the authority of the wolves.

    If you read Rose Wilder Lane or Henry Grady Weaver, there is a suggestion that this importation of heretical ideas came from the returning crusaders, who observed among the Saracens not only good manners, bathing, and literacy, but also fairly decentralized governments.

  • joe||

    Nevertheless, I expect the media will still drag him across the finish line, even though some polls now have McCain ahead.

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

    In TallDave world, people love Sarah Palin, resent Barack Obama's auntie, and John McCain is still in the race.

  • ||

    in all fairness, joe, even though the odds are against him, I wouldn't say John McCain is out of the race.

  • BDB||

    TAO--

    Yeah, and there's a chance I might win the Mega Millions, too.

    FiveThirtyEight gives him a 2.8% chance of winning. Slightly better than my odds of winning the lottery jackpot, but not by much.

  • ||

    BDB - I'm just sayin'! :D

    I frankly wish it was closer and McCain would lose by say, 1.5% or so. Then, in addition to the financial crisis, libertarians can be blamed for the GOP's loss, too!

  • BDB||

    TAO-

    I'm hoping McCain loses Georgia and Montana by exactly the amount Barr gets.

  • BDB||

    Wow, he's not even ahead in one poll.

    What poll was he talking about? An internet poll? Zogby/LOL?

  • DBD||

    So is Barack's Aunt a d-list celebrity/media whore yet? Maybe then we can find out if she is registered to vote and drawing SSI.

  • joe||

    So is Barack's Aunt a d-list celebrity/media whore yet?

    "The AP could not immediately reach Onyango for comment. When a reporter went to her home Friday night, no one answered the door. A neighbor said she was often not home on weekends. Onyango did not immediately return telephone and written messages left at her home."

    What do you think? She doing any campaign appearances?

  • BDB||

    Yeah. I'd say not.

  • ||

    So today we find out Obama's aunt is in the U.S. illegally, donated to Obama's campagn illegally, and illegally received governemnt assistance (which is probably what she illegally donated to Obama). I can only assume she also plans to illegally vote for him as well. ACORN has probably illegally registered her five or six times by now.

    Heh, really sums Obama's campaign nicely.

    Nevertheless, I expect the media will still drag him across the finish line, even though some polls now have McCain ahead.


    From the AP article I googled

    The woman, Zeituni Onyango, is living in public housing in Boston and is the half-sister of Mr Obama's late father.


    Oh yeah. The half sister of a father he barely knew. I'm ouraged that he wasn't keeping track of her immigration status. Her living in public housing pisses me off a bit, but that is only due to public housing's existence pissing me off.

  • Syd Henderson||

    On the other hand Cheney endorsed McCain, which should make up for it.

  • Viking Minion||

    Hay hai gaiz, i'd like to parade introduce my Aunt. She's a media whore seamstress. That's right. Seamstress. Media whore.

    What do you mean, "identity politics"?

    she's my aunt. didja see she's a seamstress media whore? seamstress. and she can see... oh never mind...

  • ||

    If you were from Kenya and mangaged to get into the U.S. would you leave short of the DHS physically placing you on the plane?

  • BDB||

    This is slightly more of a big deal than John McCain's brother calling 9-11 to complain about Northern Virginia traffic, but only just.

  • Kolohe||

    who observed among the Saracens not only good manners, bathing, and literacy, but also fairly decentralized governments.

    As Leftiti et al would say, you don't see that correlation anymore. :)

  • ||

    TallDave,
    Did she carve a B in anyone's face? HAHAHAHAH!

    Your airing out period ain't over yet smelly.

  • Fluffy||

    At FreeRepublic they're pushing a rumor that Barack Obama's father was secretly Malcolm X, and not the Kenyan Obama at all.

    It's sad that FreeRepublic is pretty representative of the intelligence level of the rump Republican party.

  • BDB||

    "At FreeRepublic they're pushing a rumor that Barack Obama's father was secretly Malcolm X, and not the Kenyan Obama at all."

    I hear it was Jimmy Hendrix.

  • ||

    I hear it was Jimmy Hendrix.

    *ahem* Jimi Hendrix.

    Sheesh, kids.

  • BakedPenguin||

    For more Halloween fun, Urkobold's got Lonewacko's Top Ten Reasons to Hate BarackHUSSEINObama!

  • BDB||

    Are you voting, Baked?

  • ||

    Toasted Sphenisciformes,
    I didn't know. Thanks for the info, I'll get right out campaogning for McCain tomorrow.

    Funny stuff. Your comics get better with practice it appears.

  • Just Plain Brian||

    For more Halloween fun, Urkobold's got Lonewacko's Top Ten Reasons to Hate BarackHUSSEINObama!



    Bravo, BakedPenguin, funny stuff!

    Bonus points for the subtle inclusion of Jim "Hola, amigos" Anchower.

  • BakedPenguin||

    J sub, JP Brian - thanks.

    BDB - I already early voted for Babar.

  • BDB||

    But don't you know BobBarr has RadicalConnections?

  • ||

    That Ukobold link was some funny shit.

  • BakedPenguin||

    What? Next you'll tell me he's a tool of the MoneyedInterests, BDB.

  • BDB||

    BobBarr (hereafter referred to as "RLB", RobertLaurenceBarr) is in hock to CorporateInterests who are taken advantage of by RacialPowerGroups. Or so sayeth OLS.

    Seriously though does anyone actually know why he DoesThis?

  • ||

    BDB
    I have heard that BobBarr and CertianPoliticalParties would allow more brown people in this nation.

    And even darker colors as well!

    But if we can get people to ask him this one simple question....

  • ||

    You know what I was for Halloween?

    A cosmotarian.

  • BakedPenguin||

    My theory was that he thinks white space is a LaRaza conspiracy. Mexicans sneak in through the cracks.

    Maybe he likes seeing how many people he can get to WriteWithoutSpaces. Or maybe he's just insane.

    thx, MNG.

  • BDB||

    I swear, OLS, if you tell me why you DoThis I'll click your links!

  • Just Plain Brian||

    Seriously though does anyone actually know why he DoesThis?



    Theory #238 - He used to have an assistant to press the spacebar for him, but had to fire him when he found out his assistant was an IllegalMexican.

  • Amanda the Plummer||

    At FreeRepublic they're pushing a rumor that Barack Obama's father was secretly Malcolm X, and not the Kenyan Obama at all.

    OK, guys, who's the scariest black person of all?

  • joe||

    Whoops, joke name still in there.

  • ||

    My friends the fact that my opponent is campaigning completely in red states is not a sign of strength. It is a sign, of weakness.

    OBAMA'S AUNT FTW!

  • Vincent Vega||

    OK, guys, who's the scariest black person of all?



    Marsellus Wallace

  • David Prowse||

    OK, guys, who's the scariest black person of all?

    Darth Vader

  • Neu Mejican||

    Seriously though does anyone actually know why he DoesThis?

    It allows him to google his comments more readily.

  • Nigel Tufnel||

    This makes you ask the question, how much more black must this scary person be. and the answer is none more black.

  • Fluffy||

    Maybe Willie Horton was secretly Obama's dad during one of his furloughs.

  • Happy Jack||

    Seriously though does anyone actually know why he DoesThis?

    To google without a care,
    make your words a pair!

    But, remember the admonition about poison plants.

    Words of three,
    leave them be!

  • BDB||

    What kind of person googles his own comments?

  • Neu Mejican||

    What kind of person googles his own comments?

    An obsessive compulsive narcissist.

  • Neu Mejican||

    OK, guys, who's the scariest black person of all?

    Robert Mugabe?

    For those who want to research the topic:
    http://archimedes.galilei.com/stlcofcc/black-serial-killers.html

    http://socsci.flinders.edu.au/global/africa/marcroberts/body.htm

  • Neu Mejican||

    The same idea without the racist overtones?

    http://www.parade.com/dictators/2008/

    Putin seems to be missing from the honorable mention list.

  • Coarsetad||

    I had dream last night that after being elected, Obama grew out a really greasy jerry-curl fro. I woke up sweating, I tell you!

  • ||

    I had dream last night that after being elected, Obama grew out a really greasy jerry-curl fro.

    Was that before, or after, he appointed Jesse Jackson as Attorney General?

  • Mike Laursen||

    I tuned in to some Saturday afternoon conservative talk radio dude on the local Rush Limbaugh station to find out what eleventh-hour attacks were being made on Obama. They didn't disappoint.

    Apparently, in every swing state Obama has "civilian response squads" who harass or even beat up any ordinary citizen who speaks out against Obama at a public forum or in a letter to the editor. They also tied these stories into Obama's proposals of universal national service, saying that we can expect squads of Obama Youth prowling our neighborhoods.

    One woman who survived the Holocaust as a girl phoned in, and the host asked her if Hitler used the word, hope, a lot. Yes, he did, she replied. Yes, he did.

  • ||

    OK, guys, who's the scariest black person of all?

    Oprah. Follwed closely by a Cynthia McKinney with power.

    Maybe Willie Horton was secretly Obama's dad during one of his furloughs.

    That always make me cringe. I was thirteen in 1968 ... ahh, memories ...

    Best Season: 1968
    In 1968 he [Willie Horton] was second in the American League in slugging, OPS, total bases and homers (36). He was fourth in RBI (85) and batted .285, which was also fourth in the league. In the World Series he hit .304 with six runs scored, a homer and three RBI. In addition, his assist that nabbed Lou Brock at home in Game Five helped turn the series in Detroit's favor. [emphasis added]



    Helped? Sheesh. Maybe you had to be there.

  • BDB||

    Well, Mike, now we know who is feeding the paranoid of OLS.

  • ||

    Secretary of Education: Al Sharpton.

  • BDB||

    Sec. Homeland Security: Bill Ayers

    Sec. of Defense: Jane Fonda

    Director of Faith Based Initiative: Rev. Wright

    Drug Czar: Marion Barry

  • Elemenope||

    Drug Czar: Marion Barry

    I could live with that.

    Both on policy and competence grounds.

  • BDB||

    Attorney General: Maude Hurd (head of ACORN)

  • joe||

    Sec. Homeland Security: Bill Ayers

    Actually, based on his professional experience, he'd be a more natural fit for Secretary of Education.

    But I understand he's also done some work at the Pentagon.

  • Mike Laursen||

    Well, Mike, now we know who is feeding the paranoid of OLS.

    BDB, what's OLS?

  • Mike Laursen||

    Drug Czar: Marion Barry

    I could live with that.


    I dunno. I've known some pretty major cokeheads in my time who were all for the War on Drugs -- for other people.

  • BDB||

    OLS=OrangeLineSpecial. The guy that DoesThis.

  • Mike Laursen||

    Oh, Lonewacko. OrangeLineSpecial is an anagram for InsaneLogicLeaper, by the way.

    Also, in my comment above I was misquoted the talk show host. Googling shows that the proper right-wing paranoid terminology is Obama's "Civilian National Security Force". Just "Truth Squads" is also used.

  • Nike Dunk High||

    thanks

GET REASON MAGAZINE

Get Reason's print or digital edition before it’s posted online

  • Video Game Nation: How gaming is making America freer – and more fun.
  • Matt Welch: How the left turned against free speech.
  • Nothing Left to Cut? Congress can’t live within their means.
  • And much more.

SUBSCRIBE

advertisement