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The Friday Political Thread: Spooky Scary Edition
The Week in Brief
- Barack Obama went all Ross Perot
on you.
- Bob Barr met Ralph Nader in
rhetorical combat.
- Michael the Blogger got his 15
minutes.
- Reasonoids declared their
votes.
As of right now, Electoral-Vote.com gives Obama a 364-171 lead with North Dakota a tie, and Pollster.com gives Obama a 311-142 lead.
Below the Fold
- Robert Stacy McCain predicts
the pundit spin.
- Michael Brendan Dougherty gets
sexy.
- A Daily Kos diarist warns
against Dem optimism, citing... Daily Kos diaries from four
years back.
- Jim Geraghty
analyzes the early vote. (He's done a lot of this, so keep on
scrolling.)
As we get ready to choose our leader, here's a song about a
terrifying monarch.
Neu Mejican|10.31.08 @ 6:11PM|#
More Halloween appropriate music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I59-LZVRmYM
Reasonable|10.31.08 @ 6:15PM|#
Strangely, nothing on the massive and illegal invasion of
privacy Joe The Plumber suffered after having the audacity to ask
Obama a tough question, which we're now learning was more extensive
than first admitted and has already led to one charge of Gross
Misconduct.
If he was a suspected terrorist, Reason would be all over this, but
apparently the editorial staff are not letting a little thing like
actual violations of civil liberties intended to suppress free
speech get in the way of electing their beloved socialist.
Neu Mejican|10.31.08 @ 6:20PM|#
Reasonable,
http://swampbubbles.com/20081028/julie-mcconnell-charged-gross-misconduct-accessing-joe-plumbers-files
So what are you upset about?
That the person who broke the rules is quickly identified and
punished for possible civil rights violations?
Seems like an example of the proper role of government...to have a
rule forbidding this kind of behavior that have some teeth.
Orange Line Special|10.31.08 @ 6:29PM|#
Announcing: The Reason Challenge!
Reason should create a post discussing all or almost all of my
reasons not to vote
for Obama, making sure to be as intellectually honest as
possible. Then, they should indicate why they still support
BHO.
Is Reason up for the Challenge? I'm almost positive they
aren't.
SIV|10.31.08 @ 6:30PM|#
FWIW I'm not voting in the general election this year--same as 2004.I'm out of town on election day and "early voting" has made it difficult to absentee vote without waiting in an hours long line.It took me 10 minutes to vote in the Primary.I was in town this week and tried to early vote 3 times.The first 2 had a 1.5+ hour wait and I didn't have the time or desire to wait.I finally decided it would be worth casting a vote for LP Candidate Buckley in the GA Senate race as I was part of the "historic vote" in 1992 in which LP voters forced the candidates into a runoff that flipped Wyche Fowler's Senate seat to Republican Paul Coverdell.I took off from work to find a 5 hour line complete with local TV news and Fire trucks.Fuck it. I'm not consenting to be governed.I'll retain my right to not abide by the outcome.Feels kinda good to be a "principled non-voter".
|10.31.08 @ 6:40PM|#
Announcing: The Reason Challenge!
Announcing: The Orange Line Special Challenge!
Lonewacko should STFU on the pages of H&R until after the
election.
Is LoneWacko up to the challenge? I'm almost positive he
isn't.
|10.31.08 @ 6:40PM|#
Announcing: The Lonewacko Challenge!
Lonewacko should quit spamming H&R generally, and the Friday
political thread specifically, with his mindless, self-indulgent
horseshit.
Is Lonewacko up for the Challenge? There's virtually no chance the
rest of us could be so lucky.
|10.31.08 @ 6:44PM|#
Great song Dave. Even better that this version has prog rock royalty: John Wetton, Chester Thompson and Steve Hackett in it.
joe|10.31.08 @ 6:45PM|#
Barack Obama gets your whites whiter.
Barack Obama works your abs, lats, and glutes - in one easy
motion!
Barack Obama clears away hardened soap scum in seconds. Look at
that shine!
Barack Obama is made of a space-age miracle fiber, developed by
NASA, that never needs ironing.
*gasp* You're not going to put acid on Barack Obama, are you?!?
Wow, look at how Barack Obama protects the finish!
Mad Max|10.31.08 @ 6:51PM|#
"some conservative Catholics have proposed Halloween
alternatives for their children, like All Saints Parties - in
commemoration of their actual feast day. This sounds good in
theory, but I can imagine it getting screwy in practice. Little
Bobby, 9, says, "I'm King Louis IX of France, a model of the
Christian Knight." (Sounds like a blast, already) Then Mary Grace,
11, 'I'm Saint Agatha, my breasts were cut off by Quintian. And now
they are on this plate. Look!' Good luck with that."
OMG, how dare those Catholics to try to appropriate this sacred
holiday, which is the eve of All Saints Day - uh, whoops, I mean,
is a sacred day for indulging our horror fantasies.
If you want horror, then you can't do much better than to look at
the life of Saint Agatha, as indicated in this link from the
Church's official calendar of saints:
"THE cities of Palermo and Catana, in Sicily, dispute the honor of
her birth: but they do much better who, by copying her virtues, and
claiming her patronage, strive to become her fellow-citizens in
heaven. It is agreed that she received the crown of martyrdom at
Catana, in the persecution of Decius, in the third consulship of
that prince, in the year of our Lord. She was of a rich and
illustrious family, and having been consecrated to God from her
tender years, triumphed over many assaults upon her chastity.
Quintianus, a man of consular dignity, bent on gratifying both his
lust and avarice, imagined he should easily compass his wicked
designs on Agatha's person and estate, by means of the emperor's
edict against the Christians. He therefore caused her to be
apprehended and brought before him at Catana. Seeing herself in the
hands of the persecutors, she made this prayer: "Jesus Christ, Lord
of all things, you see my heart, you know my desire: possess alone
all that I am. I am your sheep, make me worthy to overcome the
devil." She wept, and prayed for courage and strength all the way
she went. On her appearance, Quintianus gave orders for her being
put into the hands of Aphrodisia, a most wicked woman, who with six
daughters, all prostitutes, kept a common stew. The saint suffered
in this infamous place, assaults and stratagems against her virtue,
infinitely more terrible to her than any tortures or death itself.
But placing her confidence in God, she never ceased with sighs and
most earnest tears to implore his protection, and by it was an
overmatch for all their hellish attempts, the whole month she was
there. Quintianus being informed of her constancy after thirty
days, ordered her to be brought before him. The virgin, in her
first interrogatory, told him, that to be a servant of Jesus Christ
was the most illustrious nobility, and true liberty. The judge,
offended at her resolute answers, commanded her to be buffeted, and
led to prison. She entered it with great joy, recommending her
future conflict to God. The next day she was arraigned a second
time at the tribunal, and answered with equal constancy that Jesus
Christ was her life and her salvation. Quintianus then ordered her
to be stretched on the rack, which torment was usually accompanied
with stripes, the tearing of the sides with iron hooks, and burning
them with torches or matches. The governor, enraged to see her
suffer all this with cheerfulness, commanded her breast to be
tortured, and afterwards to be cut off. At which she made him this
reproach: 'Cruel tyrant, do you not blush to torture this part of
my body, you that sucked the breasts of a woman yourself?' He
remanded her to prison with a severe order, that neither salves nor
food should be allowed her. But God would be himself her physician,
and the apostle St. Peter in a vision comforted her, healed all her
wounds, and filled her dungeon with a heavenly light. Quintianus,
four days after, not the least moved at the miraculous cure of her
wounds, caused her to be rolled naked over live coals mixed with
broken potsherds. Being carried back to prison, she made this
prayer: 'Lord, my Creator, you have ever protected me from the
cradle. You have taken from me the love of the world, and given me
patience to suffer: receive now my soul.' After which words she
sweetly gave up the ghost."
Yeah, that stuff is boring - much better to dress up as Supergirl
or Sailor Moon, or Batman (like the people I've seen around my
way).
Kolohe|10.31.08 @ 6:53PM|#
"Marxism. It's made in Germany and you know they make good stuff. Camera guy are you following me here?"
joe|10.31.08 @ 6:56PM|#
"BARACK HUSSEIN OSAMA"
Minor quibble: it's "Barack HUSSEIN Obama."
They write middle names in ALL CAPS over there in Kenyastan.
SIV|10.31.08 @ 7:02PM|#
I could have absentee voted if I applied way early by mail.Once the early voting starts the line is the same for an application.I used to vote exclusively by mail but then they offered absentee voting at the registrar's office.There are no lines for Primaries and off years.I forgot what happens now with early voting and no absentee declaration required.Fuck it.I've always advocated not voting even though I'll vote in a schol bond referendum (always against).I'm just going to practice what I preach from now on.
|10.31.08 @ 7:06PM|#
Halloween Obama: http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/33500/Obama-The-Demon--33963.jpg
|10.31.08 @ 7:28PM|#
Saint Aggie is both the patron saint of lunatics (why she is my favorite) and the patron saint of bell makers. Why bell makers? Because in iconography, the breasts on the platter looked like brass bells.
|10.31.08 @ 7:33PM|#
Great song Dave. Even better that this version has prog rock
royalty: John Wetton, Chester Thompson and Steve Hackett in
it.
Yeah, great stuff alright. Would've thought that Goblin would've
been the prog band for halloween though.
Elemenope|10.31.08 @ 7:49PM|#
Mad Max,
You have to admit that some of the saints got offed in pretty
fucked up ways.
And most of those stories are NOT G-rated.
See The Reason Challenge!|10.31.08 @ 8:06PM|#
Eric G writes:
Halloween Obama:
http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/33500/Obama-The-Demon--33963.jpg
That's a photoshop, right?
Joel|10.31.08 @ 8:09PM|#
When the election is over, can we stop talking about the
election? Please? I want to know what it's like not to throw up in
my mouth a little every time I hear two names.
And LoneWhacko's challenge ... I mean, why not? Whatdahell else you
got to do this weekend? Oh, wait ... my sock drawer ...
Kolohe|10.31.08 @ 8:13PM|#
On her appearance, Quintianus gave orders for her being put
into the hands of Aphrodisia, a most wicked woman, who with six
daughters, all prostitutes, kept a common stew
Bow chicka wow-wow.
The saint suffered in this infamous place, assaults and
stratagems against her virtue, infinitely more terrible to her than
any tortures or death itself.
"Please, I can defeat them. There's only seven of them. Let me go
back there and face the temptation. Look, it's my duty as a saint
to sample as much temptation as I can"
(BTW googling for the phrase 'kept a common stew' only gives
versions of this story. I'm still trying to figure out hat was
Butler trying to say here. That a woman living with her six
daughters was immoral? Or that he was just saying 'they lived
together' in a fancy way and the fact they were all slutty was the
problem?)
Mad Max|10.31.08 @ 8:14PM|#
"You have to admit that some of the saints got offed in pretty
fucked up ways."
And if they'd only gone along with the crowd, they could have
avoided such tortuous deaths, and could have died peacefully in
their beds instead. What was wrong with these people? I guess their
teachers gave them bad marks in the "Plays Well With Others"
category.
Mad Max|10.31.08 @ 8:18PM|#
Kolohe,
In Butler's day, "stew" meant brothel.
In those far-off days, being forced to work in a brothel was
considered shameful and disgraceful.
joe|10.31.08 @ 8:18PM|#
Kolohe,
Common woman is an archaic term for prostitute.
Keeping the stew, mistress of the house?
Maybe it means madam.
Mad Max|10.31.08 @ 8:20PM|#
The prosecutors shared this view, since the judge, Quintianus, put St. Agatha in a brothel *as a punishment* to encourage her to abandon Christianity. Quintianus was not doing some kind of job-placement service as a favor.
Elemenope|10.31.08 @ 8:22PM|#
No, Mad Max, you're missing the point. I'm not criticizing the
ways in which God saw fit to bump off his favored witnesses. I'm
saying that their traditions and stories are probably not the best
substitute for a holiday consecrated by candy for
eight-year-olds.
In short:
Saints? Cool.
All Saint's Day as a good kid-friendly substitute for Halloween?
Retarded.
Elemenope|10.31.08 @ 8:22PM|#
"Please, I can defeat them. There's only seven of them. Let
me go back there and face the temptation. Look, it's my duty as a
saint to sample as much temptation as I can"
Too much peril.
Mad Max|10.31.08 @ 8:23PM|#
LMNOP,
You're right, better to watch Friday the 13th, Part XXXVII, and
dress up as Freddy Krueger.
Kenneth|10.31.08 @ 8:24PM|#
Prostitutes? Wow! This discussion just got way more interesting. I was getting way to bored reading about saints and voting and stuff.
BDB|10.31.08 @ 8:24PM|#
I thought evangelicals were the ones who had the problem with Halloween (saying it's form Satan and whatnot).
Mad Max|10.31.08 @ 8:26PM|#
"substitute for Halloween"
Substitute? Remember who *invented* Halloween in the first
place.
"I thought evangelicals were the ones who had the problem with
Halloween (saying it's form Satan and whatnot)."
Nothing wrong with disguising yourself at this season of the year .
. . which also happens to be election season.
BDB|10.31.08 @ 8:27PM|#
There was this one house when I was growing up that would give out Chick Tracts instead of candy. I hated that house.
Mad Max|10.31.08 @ 8:28PM|#
Those who reject the *eve* of All Saints Day probably reject All
Saints Day, as well, because they reject the idea of venerating
saints.
Or else they reject God, which is just another step along the same
continuum.
Mad Max|10.31.08 @ 8:31PM|#
And people who reject Halloween probably reject Lenten fasting,
meaning that they would necessarily reject Fat Tuesday as
well.
You cut out much of the meaning of Fat Tuesday if it isn't the eve
of a great fast.
You reject much of the meaning of All Saints' Day if you reject All
Saints' Eve.
Screw the Protestants and their spiritual descendants, the
secularists.
Mad Max|10.31.08 @ 8:42PM|#
dbcooper,
Sorry to break into the conversations of you normal people.
By the way, I hope your parachute opened properly.
|10.31.08 @ 9:03PM|#
"Mad Max is an elaborate Neil-esque internet parody,
right?"
Nah, he's just a bit of a "single issue voter" (except for mackerel
snapping instead of cockfighting), and he often likes to adopt a
tone of condescending righteous indignation when he perceives any
slights against religion, especially his One True Church. To be
fair, it's sometimes in response to comparably obnoxious atheists;
but sometimes it's out of the blue and kind of bizarre.
|10.31.08 @ 9:05PM|#
Dale Cooper is currently trapped in the Black Lodge. It is his doppleganger which posts here under that name.
|10.31.08 @ 9:07PM|#
Mad Max
I'm an athiest now but was Protestant for years.
If you're arguing Catholicism over Protestantism I can say screw
you and your hierachial, dogmatic, non-individualistic power hungry
religion.
Catholicism gave us Halloween (good) but also the Inquisition.
Protestantism gave us capitalism, individualism and freedom.
I like Halloween but I could live without it.
|10.31.08 @ 9:14PM|#
Dale Cooper is currently trapped in the Black Lodge. It is
his doppleganger which posts here under that name.
And thus the thread was restored to brilliance. We were playing
black lodge themed tracks (Fan Death!) all day in the lab today (as
well as lots of John Carpenter, Goblin, etc), so that comment was
extra good.
Elemenope|10.31.08 @ 9:21PM|#
You're right, better to watch Friday the 13th, Part
XXXVII
Yeah, because obviously if you aren't teaching your kids to
venerate the saints, you must be letting them watch vapid
ultra-violent rated-R movies which entertain with portrayals of
serial murder.
WTF is wrong with you? The world is not divided into black and
white, most choices are not binary, and most non-Catholics are not
Satan worshippers.
|10.31.08 @ 9:24PM|#
The opening theme and Laura's theme were great parts of Twin Peaks, which was great in so many other ways as well...
Pendulum|10.31.08 @ 9:32PM|#
Kay Hagan: She hid from cameras. Took Godless Money.
WHAT DID HAGAN PROMISE IN RETURN????!?!?!?
Mad Max|10.31.08 @ 9:41PM|#
"most non-Catholics are not Satan worshippers."
Really? Then I guess it's a good thing I didn't say they
were.
Wait, perhaps that answer isn't emotionally satisfying for you, so
let me say instead . . . throw some more wood on the fire, Ma,
we're gonna burn us some heretics! Then we're gonna build a tunnel
under the Atlantic Ocean so the Pope can have direct access to the
White House . . . and you'll never guess what we're gonna do to the
Merovingians!
Mad Max|10.31.08 @ 9:47PM|#
MNG,
"Protestantism gave us capitalism, individualism and
freedom."
Let Rodney Stark expand your mind.
Yes, he blames monotheism for witch-panics (we all know that
pagan/animist cultures don't persecute purported witches), but he
links the Scientific Revolution ™ to Christian culture in general,
not just to Christian culture post-1517.
Fluffy|10.31.08 @ 9:49PM|#
Those who reject the *eve* of All Saints Day probably reject
All Saints Day, as well, because they reject the idea of venerating
saints.
Or else they reject God, which is just another step along the same
continuum.
Polytheist.
[Snort.]
Probably an idolator as well.
[Snort.]
|10.31.08 @ 9:55PM|#
The opening theme and Laura's theme were great parts of Twin
Peaks, which was great in so many other ways as well...
Audrey's theme, and that dance she did with the one leg and the
spectator shoes ...
We watched the opening of Argento's Suspira today - best use of
colour this side of Ben Horne and the "new girl" entering the
vaginal folds of the corridor in One Eyed Jack's.
Elemenope|10.31.08 @ 9:55PM|#
Mad Max,
Perhaps you were just being too nuanced for me and you weren't
implying that parents who don't teach about the saints on Halloween
are necessarily sending their kids out imitating a serial
killer.
You and your subtleties. Gosh.
Mad Max|10.31.08 @ 10:00PM|#
LMNOP,
Again, we are the folks who *invented* Halloween. Objecting to All
Saints' Eve would be like objecting to Christmas Eve.
Naturally, that doesn't mean that I give my Good Housekeeping Seal
of Approval to *everything* that people do on All Hallows Eve, any
more that I endorse everything people do on Christmas Eve office
parties. But the, they don't ask my approval, do they, so the
question doesn't arise.
People who celebrate All Hallows Eve without celebrating All Saints
Day are . . . curious, like if they celebrated Christmas Eve
without celebrating Christmas. But to each his own.
If conservative Catholics want to celebrate All Hallows Eve by
having kids dress up as saints, how on earth is that worse than
having them dress up as Sarah Palin? Anyway, it's our holiday, so
we celebrate is how we want.
|10.31.08 @ 10:13PM|#
Mad Max
Yeah, science and individualism and capitalism just happened to
take off exponentially when Luther et al offered the Western world
an alternative to the Catholic Church which was and still largely
is a large, hiearchial, collectivist, dogma loving, centralized
bureaucratic organization.
The Reformation itself, just its occurring must have been great for
breaking up authority and for the individual because now there
would be actual competition for mens souls allowing them some
choice and alternative. Its specific tenents promoted
individualism, capitalism, rationalization (each man reading the
Bible themselves and going to God directly [remember the great
translators into national tongues from Latin was a Protestant
thing] rather than having "the Church" as the intermediary, the
rejection of Catholic superstition and adornment [the bones of the
saints, their shroud, the imagery, etc.] and rationalization of
religion advocated by the Protestants, the Protestant Work Ethic,
the repeal of usury laws, etc.).
Mad Max|10.31.08 @ 10:19PM|#
MNG,
You really might want to take a look at Stark's work. He's not what
I'd call a Catholic apologist, and I'm not saying he's always fair
to the Church. But he doesn't have an ingrained Catholic-bashing
reflex, which in the realm of academia means that he's virtually a
Papist stooge.
The economic revolution in Europe predated the Reformation, and
occurred in places where the Reformation was fended off
successfully. Flanders - what we know as Belgium - was an economic
powerhouse, and stayed in the Catholic camp. Consider the Italian
bankers - no Protestants, they. The Florentines were not exactly
Calvinist militants, either.
Fluffy|10.31.08 @ 10:22PM|#
Um, the Catholics didn't invent Halloween. They superimposed All
Hallows Eve on top of an already-existing pagan festival, much as
they did for Christmas.
Halloween is the Catholic Beatlemania version of Samhain.
Fluffy|10.31.08 @ 10:27PM|#
Max is also offering the argument that the strict monotheism of
Protestants - who don't indulge in Mary-worship, Saint-worship,
Relic-Fetishry, Icon-Fetishry, etc. like the Catholics and the
various Orthodox churches - are somehow less spiritual and more
secular as a result.
This continuum of his makes absolutely no sense, when you consider
the fact that Judaism and Islam are even more radically
monotheistic than the Protestants. Anyone want to argue that Islam
is spiritually related to secularism? Hmmm?
Mad Max|10.31.08 @ 10:28PM|#
Much of the economic dynamism of Protestant communities came
from hard-core Calvinists. These folks were not proto-libertarians
by any stretch of the imagination. They made Catholics look like
hippie beatnik skeptics. With the enthusiasm of a new religiuos
movement, the Calvininsts addressed the problem of man's eternal
destiny by claiming that the universe was a vast Publishers'
Clearinghouse Sweepstakes, where God *arbitrarily* pre-selected a
few people to be saved, without any role for human free will.
Calvinist merchants sought evidence that they were among the few
sweepstakes winners, and they sought that evidence in their worldly
success - a sign of God's blessing.
After a few generations, the enthusiasm of the Calvinists, like the
enthusiasm of new religious movements in general, waned, and the
descendants of Calvinists can today be found clamoring for the
government to relieve them of individual responsibility. Thus, even
by their own standards of worldly success, the Calvinists failed -
and in any event, I don't see how these Calvinists can be cited by
libertarians (many of whom are, shall we say, skeptics) as their
forebears.
The first few generations of Calvinists included very rich
merchants in the Netherlands, England, and Massachusetts. The first
flowering of Calvinist culture showed great promise - not that
libertarians should take comfort from this, because (a) the
Calvinists were not libertarians, and hated secularists, and (b)
they were unable to sustain their culture over the long term.
Mad Max|10.31.08 @ 10:31PM|#
"Um, the Catholics didn't invent Halloween. They superimposed
All Hallows Eve on top of an already-existing pagan festival, much
as they did for Christmas."
Oh, sorry, I will be happy to surrender Halloween into the hands of
the pagan high-priest who is the true successor of the old
pagans.
What - no such high priest exists? Only some "neo-pagan" movements
dating back no further than the 20th century? Then I guess we have
the superior claim. So sorry.
joe|10.31.08 @ 11:02PM|#
Don't make me side with Mad Max, Prods.
I'lll do it. I'm warning you.
I've been to mass once since Spring, but I swear to God, I'll side
with Mad Max.
And he won't even call me a Cafeteria Catholic until we're done
kicking your ass.
cunnivore|11.1.08 @ 12:07AM|#
Mr Nice Guy,
Ah, so that's why northern Germany, Bohemia, and Sweden were such
hotbeds of capitalism and individual freedom after the Reformation!
I guess all those witch burnings in Protestant countries were just
an illusion perpetrated by popish infiltrators.
You're talking about England, then. Which was a Catholic country
when the Magna Carta was signed, and the framework for English
liberty laid down. And the same country that raped Ireland in the
name of the Reformation, and exported that wonderful brand of
scientific rationalism that led to the Salem Witch Trials.
And the scientific revolution took place mostly in Catholic
countries like Italy and France.
cunnivore|11.1.08 @ 12:12AM|#
Oh, sorry, I will be happy to surrender Halloween into the
hands of the pagan high-priest who is the true successor of the old
pagans.
Considering your ancestors in faith persecuted the Celtic pagans
and burned Druids at the stake, it's not really sporting to gloat
that they're not around any more. All Saints Day was established as
Nov. 1 long before the papacy was aware of the Celtic Halloween,
too. It was just a fortunate coincidence, not the result of some
cunning plan by the pope.
JLE|11.1.08 @ 12:41AM|#
I object to holidays. I do appreciate the change of the season, but that happens every year. Government dictated holidays aren't necessary to people who experience true freedom.
|11.1.08 @ 1:14AM|#
Both the reformation and renaissance were movements towards individualism, but I would say it's a mistake to assume either was the cause of the other. I think they arose because a variety of factors led to an emergent merchant class in western Europe, which was more individualistic in thinking.
cunnivore|11.1.08 @ 1:35AM|#
You guys are making up history as you go along. The Reformation
had zilch to do with individualism.
Sure, they said that you could read the Bible yourself, and trust
that the Holy Spirit would lead you to correct beliefs. The
corollary of which was, if you disagreed with Luther or whoever
your local church dictator happened to be, you obviously must not
be obeying the Holy Spirit, perhaps even in league with Satan. Just
because Protestant church leaders were married and not called
"Father" doesn't mean they weren't jealous of their power.
I'm not trying to excuse the Catholic Church, believe me. They've
got loads of blood on their hands too. But some of you are
polishing the halo of Protestantism a bit too much.
Fluffy|11.1.08 @ 8:41AM|#
What - no such high priest exists? Only some "neo-pagan"
movements dating back no further than the 20th century? Then I
guess we have the superior claim. So sorry.
What kind of non-argument is this?
You said you invented it. That makes continuity of a
particular religious experience irrelevant. You either invented it,
or you did not. Every single last historical fact between the point
of "invention" and today - including the extinction of other
religious movements - is irrelevant to that question.
There are no worshippers of Sol Invictus around around any more,
either. But that doesn't mean you invented the winter solstice
celebration.
Fluffy|11.1.08 @ 9:18AM|#
With regard to the Protestant vs. Catholic discussion, I think
that theories giving Protestantism credit for later cultural
advantages because of its doctrines have always been
overblown.
I think the content of Protestantism was much less important than
its mere existence. The disintegration of religious orthodoxy
helped create a chaos of authority in which innovative
thought could thrive. The mere fact that one could cross a border
and evade a particular religious authority helped create shifting
pockets of liberty of thought in Europe. The destruction caused by
religious warfare was also partially offset by the fact that small
states could play both multiple sides of the religious dispute[s]
against each other to maintain independence of action. Someone
mentioned the Netherlands above; how much more difficult did it
become for various imperial figures to try to control the
Netherlands once religion became an item of contention there?
|11.1.08 @ 9:27AM|#
LOL, you are right! That is pretty spooky for sure. Good one
guys, good one indeed.
Jif
http://www.Privacy-Center.net
|11.1.08 @ 9:33AM|#
fluffy
"I think the content of Protestantism was much less important than
its mere existence."
I said so as much in the first sentence of my argument for the
individualizing effect of the Protestants:
"The Reformation itself, just its occurring must have been great
for breaking up authority and for the individual because now there
would be actual competition for mens souls allowing them some
choice and alternative."
Also it's too simplistic to say the Puritans were not libertarians
because, you know what awful prigs the Puritans were. The Puritans
had some problemts, but the logic of their beliefs also helped
create and foster the beginnings of many important freedoms. Take
this Puritan document, one of the first examples of limited
government in the New World:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_Body_of_Liberties
The Puritan and Protestant nations eventually evolved in very free
and capitalistic nations (take England, the Netherlands, and
eventually the US). Capitalism was retarded in strong Catholic
outposts like Spain and Portugal while absolutism seemed more
natural in those nations too (and you can add France to that
one).
Another major key imo is that the Protestant Reformation involved
many groups that were decentralized either relatively to the
Catholic Church or in absolute terms (Congregationalists, Baptists,
etc). That allowed a kind of "public choice" of religious authority
to occur where you could vote with your feet and go to another
congregation independent of the others.
Fluffy|11.1.08 @ 9:37AM|#
http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE49U82620081031
According to this article, Obama's 10 year old daughter dressed up
as an "evil fairy" for Halloween.
I didn't know they made Bill Kristol costumes that small.
|11.1.08 @ 9:38AM|#
"Just because Protestant church leaders were married and not
called "Father" doesn't mean they weren't jealous of their
power."
Oh sure cunny, I agree, and I'll even add that the present tense
fits there too (that is current Protestant church leaders are often
jealous of their authority).
However, the logic behind Protestantism in general (that you can
leave the big moribound church and set up one of your own, because
you can read the Bible and decide things for yourself and can be
saved directly absent the intervention of "the church" and the
independent congregational style of many Protestants allowing you
to vote with your feet) undermined even this authority. Check out
Kai Erickson's work on the Puritans for comments about how these
guys were surely no libertarians but how the logic of their
theology just kept producing dissent and later accomodation (Anne
Hutchinson, Roger Williams, the Quakers, etc., in Puritan New
England to name a few).
|11.1.08 @ 9:41AM|#
fluffy
That was great.
You know, I've seen some performances by David Brooks (on C-Span at
a Cato event and on the PBS election coverage my elitist self
watches) where I'm warming to him. He's still got the hack in him,
but maybe less so lately or never to the same extent as
Kristol.
But I'll only warm to that gleeful demon Kristol in the flames of
hell. Like his dad I often think he's on the take.
|11.1.08 @ 9:52AM|#
It isn't really a coincedence that two different cultures have rituals in harvest season near the equinox.
|11.1.08 @ 10:21AM|#
J sub D | October 31, 2008, 6:40pm | #
Announcing: The Reason Challenge!
Announcing: The Orange Line Special Challenge!
Lonewacko should STFU on the pages of H&R until after the election
Is LoneWacko up to the challenge? I'm almost positive he isn't..
Sparky | October 31, 2008, 6:40pm | #
Announcing: The Lonewacko Challenge!
Lonewacko should quit spamming H&R generally, and the Friday political thread specifically, with his mindless, self-indulgent horseshit.
Is Lonewacko up for the Challenge? There's virtually no chance the rest of us could be so lucky.
Note the date/time tags. Awesome.
|11.1.08 @ 10:38AM|#
There was this one house when I was growing up that would
give out Chick Tracts instead of candy. I hated that
house.
Please tell me the house was egged on a regular basis. Please.
BDB|11.1.08 @ 10:50AM|#
With regards to Protestantism vs. Catholicism, even as an agnostic I'd much rather have my neighbor me a fundie Catholic than a fundie Evangelical Protestant.
|11.1.08 @ 10:55AM|#
Oh boy, A macker snapper vs. heretic fight! This should be
better than Monday Night Raw.
I was raised Roman Catholic, I've since disavowed such
superstition, but it has given me at least one good line
to use from time to time.
When approached by protestant evangelicals, this rolls so easily
off my tongue
I'm a member of Roman Catholic Church, the one true faith, founded
by our lord Jesus through the Peter the apostle. You are heretic
condemned to Hell unless you renounce your ways and return to the
only true Christian faith.
Works every time. For some reason (St. Bartholomew's Day massacre?)
protestants actually fear Catholics.
BDB|11.1.08 @ 11:05AM|#
J sub--
Evangelical fundies on street corners is one of the many reasons I
have my iPod on when walking through the city.
Elemenope|11.1.08 @ 11:06AM|#
With regards to Protestantism vs. Catholicism, even as an
agnostic I'd much rather have my neighbor me a fundie Catholic than
a fundie Evangelical Protestant.
Word. Catholics may be all tricked-out with ritual and idols, but
they have a religious commitment to try to not be douches (good
works, and all that). Protestants (excluding Anglicans of most
varieties) seem harder edged.
Like Catholics are Starbursts and Protestants are Now &
Laters.
Metaphorically.
|11.1.08 @ 12:16PM|#
Life really is like a box of chocolates.
Nay nay, uninformed one,
♪Life is a Cabaret, old chum,
Come to the Cabaret!♪
TallDave|11.1.08 @ 1:24PM|#
So today we find out Obama's aunt is in the U.S. illegally,
donated to Obama's campagn illegally, and illegally received
governemnt assistance (which is probably what she illegally donated
to Obama). I can only assume she also plans to illegally vote for
him as well. ACORN has probably illegally registered her five or
six times by now.
Heh, really sums Obama's campaign nicely.
Nevertheless, I expect the media will still drag him across the
finish line, even though some polls now have McCain ahead.
Doodad Pro|11.1.08 @ 1:27PM|#
Come on, if you're going to illegally donate to Obama, at least
use a fake credit card.
Standards, people, standards!
|11.1.08 @ 2:56PM|#
Oh boy, A macker snapper vs. heretic fight! This should be
better than Monday Night Raw.
I was raised Roman Catholic, I've since disavowed such
superstition, but it has given me at least one good line to use
from time to time.
When approached by protestant evangelicals, this rolls so easily
off my tongue
As an ex-Mormon, I've found that it works being waaaaay too
enthusiastic about inviting those who show up at my doorstep to
come in and hear the good word about the Prophet Joseph Smith so
they won't go to the lesser heaven.
Or, depending on my mood, saying I'm in the middle of a orgy, but
hey, you're pretty good looking, want to come inside and *wink
wink* let me cum inside?
Or a bland, thank you, but I'm already Saved, but if you give me
your name and address I can send you some literature about the One
True Church and save you from perdition.
Some day I'm gonna get taken up on one of these deadpan chivvyings,
but so far they've ended the solicitations quickly.
Sometimes I'm nice and give them a 'no thank you', if they seem
sweet and not the aggressive dickish sort.
|11.1.08 @ 3:20PM|#
I didn't mean to suggest that 16th century protestants were
radical individualists. Such beasts did not occur until the early
19th century. But on a spectrum that runs from individualism to
collectivism, the rise of a merchant class created a minor shift in
the direction of individualism, to the point that a bunch of sheep
suddenly started questioning the authority of the wolves.
If you read Rose Wilder Lane or Henry Grady Weaver, there is a
suggestion that this importation of heretical ideas came from the
returning crusaders, who observed among the Saracens not only good
manners, bathing, and literacy, but also fairly decentralized
governments.
joe|11.1.08 @ 3:56PM|#
Nevertheless, I expect the media will still drag him across
the finish line, even though some polls now have McCain
ahead.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html
In TallDave world, people love Sarah Palin, resent Barack Obama's
auntie, and John McCain is still in the race.
|11.1.08 @ 4:11PM|#
in all fairness, joe, even though the odds are against him, I wouldn't say John McCain is out of the race.
BDB|11.1.08 @ 4:13PM|#
TAO--
Yeah, and there's a chance I might win the Mega Millions,
too.
FiveThirtyEight gives him a 2.8% chance of winning. Slightly better
than my odds of winning the lottery jackpot, but not by much.
|11.1.08 @ 4:14PM|#
BDB - I'm just sayin'! :D
I frankly wish it was closer and McCain would lose by say, 1.5% or
so. Then, in addition to the financial crisis, libertarians can be
blamed for the GOP's loss, too!
BDB|11.1.08 @ 4:14PM|#
TAO-
I'm hoping McCain loses Georgia and Montana by exactly the amount
Barr gets.
BDB|11.1.08 @ 4:19PM|#
Wow, he's not even ahead in one poll.
What poll was he talking about? An internet poll? Zogby/LOL?
DBD|11.1.08 @ 4:35PM|#
So is Barack's Aunt a d-list celebrity/media whore yet? Maybe then we can find out if she is registered to vote and drawing SSI.
joe|11.1.08 @ 4:55PM|#
So is Barack's Aunt a d-list celebrity/media whore
yet?
"The AP could not immediately reach Onyango for comment. When a
reporter went to her home Friday night, no one answered the door. A
neighbor said she was often not home on weekends. Onyango did not
immediately return telephone and written messages left at her
home."
What do you think? She doing any campaign appearances?
|11.1.08 @ 5:13PM|#
So today we find out Obama's aunt is in the U.S. illegally,
donated to Obama's campagn illegally, and illegally received
governemnt assistance (which is probably what she illegally donated
to Obama). I can only assume she also plans to illegally vote for
him as well. ACORN has probably illegally registered her five or
six times by now.
Heh, really sums Obama's campaign nicely.
Nevertheless, I expect the media will still drag him across the
finish line, even though some polls now have McCain
ahead.
From the AP article I googled
The woman, Zeituni Onyango, is living in public housing in Boston and is the half-sister of Mr Obama's late father.
Oh yeah. The half sister of a father he barely knew. I'm ouraged
that he wasn't keeping track of her immigration status. Her living
in public housing pisses me off a bit, but that is only due to
public housing's existence pissing me off.
Syd Henderson|11.1.08 @ 5:14PM|#
On the other hand Cheney endorsed McCain, which should make up for it.
Viking Minion|11.1.08 @ 5:33PM|#
Hay hai gaiz, i'd like to parade introduce my Aunt.
She's a media whore seamstress. That's right. Seamstress. Media
whore.
What do you mean, "identity politics"?
she's my aunt. didja see she's a seamstress media whore?
seamstress. and she can see... oh never mind...
|11.1.08 @ 5:42PM|#
If you were from Kenya and mangaged to get into the U.S. would you leave short of the DHS physically placing you on the plane?
BDB|11.1.08 @ 5:51PM|#
This is slightly more of a big deal than John McCain's brother calling 9-11 to complain about Northern Virginia traffic, but only just.
Kolohe|11.1.08 @ 6:23PM|#
who observed among the Saracens not only good manners,
bathing, and literacy, but also fairly decentralized
governments.
As Leftiti et al would say, you don't see that correlation anymore.
:)
|11.1.08 @ 6:46PM|#
TallDave,
Did she carve a B in anyone's face? HAHAHAHAH!
Your airing out period ain't over yet smelly.
Fluffy|11.1.08 @ 6:47PM|#
At FreeRepublic they're pushing a rumor that Barack Obama's
father was secretly Malcolm X, and not the Kenyan Obama at
all.
It's sad that FreeRepublic is pretty representative of the
intelligence level of the rump Republican party.
BDB|11.1.08 @ 6:48PM|#
"At FreeRepublic they're pushing a rumor that Barack Obama's
father was secretly Malcolm X, and not the Kenyan Obama at
all."
I hear it was Jimmy Hendrix.
BakedPenguin|11.1.08 @ 7:27PM|#
For more Halloween fun, Urkobold's got Lonewacko's Top Ten Reasons to Hate BarackHUSSEINObama!
|11.1.08 @ 7:39PM|#
Toasted Sphenisciformes,
I didn't know. Thanks for the info, I'll get right out campaogning
for McCain tomorrow.
Funny stuff. Your comics get better with practice it appears.
Just Plain Brian|11.1.08 @ 7:43PM|#
For more Halloween fun, Urkobold's got Lonewacko's Top Ten Reasons to Hate BarackHUSSEINObama!
Bravo, BakedPenguin, funny stuff!
Bonus points for the subtle inclusion of Jim "Hola, amigos"
Anchower.
BDB|11.1.08 @ 7:55PM|#
BobBarr (hereafter referred to as "RLB", RobertLaurenceBarr) is
in hock to CorporateInterests who are taken advantage of by
RacialPowerGroups. Or so sayeth OLS.
Seriously though does anyone actually know why he DoesThis?
|11.1.08 @ 7:58PM|#
BDB
I have heard that BobBarr and CertianPoliticalParties would allow
more brown people in this nation.
And even darker colors as well!
But if we can get people to ask him this one simple
question....
BakedPenguin|11.1.08 @ 8:00PM|#
My theory was that he thinks white space is a LaRaza conspiracy.
Mexicans sneak in through the cracks.
Maybe he likes seeing how many people he can get to
WriteWithoutSpaces. Or maybe he's just insane.
thx, MNG.
Just Plain Brian|11.1.08 @ 8:12PM|#
Seriously though does anyone actually know why he DoesThis?
Theory #238 - He used to have an assistant to press the spacebar
for him, but had to fire him when he found out his assistant was an
IllegalMexican.
Amanda the Plummer|11.1.08 @ 8:34PM|#
At FreeRepublic they're pushing a rumor that Barack Obama's
father was secretly Malcolm X, and not the Kenyan Obama at
all.
OK, guys, who's the scariest black person of all?
|11.1.08 @ 9:03PM|#
My friends the fact that my opponent is campaigning completely
in red states is not a sign of strength. It is a sign, of
weakness.
OBAMA'S AUNT FTW!
Neu Mejican|11.2.08 @ 2:32AM|#
Seriously though does anyone actually know why he
DoesThis?
It allows him to google his comments more readily.
Nigel Tufnel|11.2.08 @ 8:38AM|#
This makes you ask the question, how much more black must this scary person be. and the answer is none more black.
Happy Jack|11.2.08 @ 10:20AM|#
Seriously though does anyone actually know why he
DoesThis?
To google without a care,
make your words a pair!
But, remember the admonition about poison plants.
Words of three,
leave them be!
Neu Mejican|11.2.08 @ 1:08PM|#
What kind of person googles his own comments?
An obsessive compulsive narcissist.
Neu Mejican|11.2.08 @ 1:12PM|#
OK, guys, who's the scariest black person of all?
Robert Mugabe?
For those who want to research the topic:
http://archimedes.galilei.com/stlcofcc/black-serial-killers.html
http://socsci.flinders.edu.au/global/africa/marcroberts/body.htm
Neu Mejican|11.2.08 @ 1:14PM|#
The same idea without the racist overtones?
http://www.parade.com/dictators/2008/
Putin seems to be missing from the honorable mention list.
Coarsetad|11.2.08 @ 1:14PM|#
I had dream last night that after being elected, Obama grew out a really greasy jerry-curl fro. I woke up sweating, I tell you!
|11.2.08 @ 2:01PM|#
I had dream last night that after being elected, Obama grew
out a really greasy jerry-curl fro.
Was that before, or after, he appointed Jesse Jackson as Attorney
General?
Mike Laursen|11.2.08 @ 2:59PM|#
I tuned in to some Saturday afternoon conservative talk radio
dude on the local Rush Limbaugh station to find out what
eleventh-hour attacks were being made on Obama. They didn't
disappoint.
Apparently, in every swing state Obama has "civilian response
squads" who harass or even beat up any ordinary citizen who speaks
out against Obama at a public forum or in a letter to the editor.
They also tied these stories into Obama's proposals of universal
national service, saying that we can expect squads of Obama Youth
prowling our neighborhoods.
One woman who survived the Holocaust as a girl phoned in, and the
host asked her if Hitler used the word, hope, a lot. Yes, he did,
she replied. Yes, he did.
|11.2.08 @ 3:09PM|#
OK, guys, who's the scariest black person of all?
Oprah. Follwed closely by a Cynthia McKinney with power.
Maybe Willie Horton was secretly Obama's dad during one of his
furloughs.
That always make me cringe. I was thirteen in 1968 ... ahh,
memories ...
Best Season: 1968
In 1968 he [Willie Horton] was second in the American League in slugging, OPS, total bases and homers (36). He was fourth in RBI (85) and batted .285, which was also fourth in the league. In the World Series he hit .304 with six runs scored, a homer and three RBI. In addition, his assist that nabbed Lou Brock at home in Game Five helped turn the series in Detroit's favor. [emphasis added]
Helped? Sheesh. Maybe you had to be there.
BDB|11.2.08 @ 5:27PM|#
Sec. Homeland Security: Bill Ayers
Sec. of Defense: Jane Fonda
Director of Faith Based Initiative: Rev. Wright
Drug Czar: Marion Barry
Elemenope|11.2.08 @ 6:25PM|#
Drug Czar: Marion Barry
I could live with that.
Both on policy and competence grounds.
joe|11.2.08 @ 7:26PM|#
Sec. Homeland Security: Bill Ayers
Actually, based on his professional experience, he'd be a more
natural fit for Secretary of Education.
But I understand he's also done some work at the Pentagon.
Mike Laursen|11.2.08 @ 9:04PM|#
Well, Mike, now we know who is feeding the paranoid of
OLS.
BDB, what's OLS?
Mike Laursen|11.2.08 @ 9:06PM|#
Drug Czar: Marion Barry
I could live with that.
I dunno. I've known some pretty major cokeheads in my time who were
all for the War on Drugs -- for other people.
Mike Laursen|11.2.08 @ 11:35PM|#
Oh, Lonewacko. OrangeLineSpecial is an anagram for
InsaneLogicLeaper, by the way.
Also, in my comment above I was misquoted the talk show host.
Googling shows that the proper right-wing paranoid terminology is
Obama's "Civilian National Security Force". Just "Truth Squads" is
also used.
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