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The God that Failed
Adding to Dave's post on Colin Powell's endorsement of Barack Obama, sometimes I wonder if some people have any sort of memory, particularly the journalists now playing up this story as if the messiah had spoken.
That's not to say there is no story here; Powell is a stalwart of the Republican establishment and one of the few, far too few, African-Americans who until now has had a genuinely good chance of becoming president of the United States. My problem is that he is a man on whom the establishment has bestowed the title of foreign policy sage, when in fact he proved to be one of the most mediocre secretaries of state in recent memory, in a field including such nullities as Madeleine Albright, Warren Christopher, and the opportunistic but hollow Condoleezza Rice.
Why on earth do we listen to Colin Powell? When he was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff he opposed George H.W. Bush's decision to remove Iraqi forces from Kuwait militarily, even though the decision was ultimately a sound one. At the end of his term as chairman he advocated a disastrous U.S. operation in Somalia, contradicting his own near unworkable conditions for overseas intervention, the so-called "Powell Doctrine." As secretary of state under George W. Bush, the first item on his agenda was a botched effort to impose "smart sanctions" on Iraq. Powell visited Damascus to persuade President Bashar Assad to end illicit cross-border trade between Iraq and Syria, which was providing vital economic oxygen to Saddam Hussein's regime. Assad promised Powell he would, then ignored that promise, embarrassing the secretary early in his stewardship.
There came Iraq. Powell persuaded Bush that he would be able to get international support for an invasion if the administration took the United Nations route to gain Security Council approval for U.S. action. When he couldn't do so, Powell made his now-infamous presentation to the Security Council arguing that the Iraqi regime was developing weapons of mass destruction. The briefing was later shown to be based on false evidence, and Powell has since described the episode as a "blot" on his record. However, Powell was as blameworthy on Iraq as the many other American officials who are routinely lambasted today for the conduct of the war. However, he somehow managed to teflonize himself by repenting. No one blames Colin Powell for the fiasco, though he never contemplated resigning and stayed on in office until 2004, by which time it was clear that he had misled everyone.
(For those of us who thought the war was worth it, Powell is doubly blameworthy: for making it seem since he left office that we should censure others for the debacle in Iraq, but not be too harsh on Colin Powell; and for never having drawn the right lessons from the first Gulf war, namely that Saddam Hussein merited being removed for no other reasons than his past as a mass murderer and for being a relentless purveyor of Middle Eastern and international instability.)
That is the same Colin Powell now imparting wisdom and advice to voters. He may just get it right this time, for once, with all the evidence suggesting that Obama will win. But notice how the endorsement comes when this outcome seems a dead certainty, when the risks of the endorsement are slight and the potential gains great. Give Powell a 10 for gulling the public once again, and give yourself a zero if you're falling for it.
|10.19.08 @ 4:43PM|#
Give him a break, guys; it's not like he has a funny middle name or something...
Edward|10.19.08 @ 4:45PM|#
Think what you will about Powell, he's an establishment Republican disgusted by McCain's campaign and impressed by Obama's intelligent grasp of the issues. It's a big plus for Obama.
Kaiser|10.19.08 @ 4:46PM|#
"Give Powell a 10 for gulling the public once again, and give
yourself a zero if you're falling for it."
Excellent post. Couldn't agree more.
Mad Max|10.19.08 @ 4:55PM|#
The Neoconservative Columnists' Association has issued this
statement:
"We denounce Colin Powell for swallowing the line of bullshit we
fed him about Iraq. We assume no responsibility for the fiasco in
Iraq, because *we* had good intentions."
thoreau|10.19.08 @ 4:59PM|#
No one blames Colin Powell for the fiasco
FWIW, I do blame Powell. But I also blame people like you, Michael
Young.
There's enough blame to go around for the 6 digit body count in
Iraq. May you and all the hawks have guilt-induced nightmares for
the rest of your lives.
Orange Line Special|10.19.08 @ 5:02PM|#
Everyone reflexively gives Reason and Weigel a zero, so we've
got that part covered.
P.S. In case anyone missed it, here's a transcript
of Colin Powell's endorsement.
Strict deconstructionist|10.19.08 @ 5:11PM|#
More than 12.7% of the articles here are about blacks. No fair.
|10.19.08 @ 5:12PM|#
Oh my God.
You're kidding me.
Did Michael Young just post something criticizing Powell for his
mistaken ideas and predictions on Iraq and the Middle East? MICHAEL
YOUNG?
Oh my lord. Big balls.
thoreau|10.19.08 @ 5:21PM|#
OK, everybody get ready to take a drink:
Why does an allegedly libertarian blog like Reason still allow
posts by an apologist for a massively failed and horrendously
expensive government program like the war in Iraq?
Oh, that's right: Military spending doesn't count as actual
spending, and dead foreigners don't count as evidence that a
government program failed. Got it.
Tacos mmm...|10.19.08 @ 5:23PM|#
I'll just give a quick synopsis of this post:
Colin Powell should have known better than to listen to me.
|10.19.08 @ 5:28PM|#
Why does an allegedly libertarian blog like Reason still
allow posts by an apologist for a massively failed and horrendously
expensive government program like the war in Iraq?
He's a Middle East Expert; didn't you know?
I'm thirsty.
VM|10.19.08 @ 5:29PM|#
no, Doktor T. You're right. and the assholes who continue to
stay fixed to their 2003 conclusions (maybe with some adjustments
to their bullshit "reasoning") still have a seat at the debate.
amazing.
*takes drink of stiegl*
|10.19.08 @ 5:38PM|#
In Powells's defense, my guess is he was willing to endorse
earlier in the year, but the Obama campaign asked him to save if
for an October Surprise.
Just a guess though.
nj|10.19.08 @ 5:43PM|#
I wonder what happened to reason's resident neocon. Oh and Tacos wins the thread.
thoreau|10.19.08 @ 5:44PM|#
VM-
I'm fine with giving a seat at the table to the
objectively-pro-murder types (yes, it is murder when you kill
people who were no threat to you, even if you do it at taxpayer
expense).
I just think it should be a seat in the meal hall at the
prison.
cocow3boyz|10.19.08 @ 5:49PM|#
God has never failed, he has a reason for everything and whoever shall win this election,God has a purpose in mind.
|10.19.08 @ 5:59PM|#
Why does an allegedly libertarian blog like Reason still
allow posts by an apologist for a massively failed and horrendously
expensive government program like the war in Iraq?
I'm thinking the Reason Foundation gets a check for doing so from a
corporation with an innocuous sounding name that shares a single DC
address with several other corporations with innocuous sounding
names.
|10.19.08 @ 6:02PM|#
Cab's probably right.
One thing the Obama campaign has done very well this campaign has
been to stage-manage endorsements very effectively for strategic
news cycle victories.
economist|10.19.08 @ 6:10PM|#
Michael,
While you are still a pro-war douche, and I'm making fun of you
because we were right and you were wrong, and you have yet to admit
it, you make an important point about Colin Powell's strange status
as the sage of foreign affairs. That said, everything else you've
said for years is bullshit.
economist|10.19.08 @ 6:11PM|#
Damn, this doesn't look good after I said on another thread that I wasn't going to bother with this for two weeks.
cunnivore|10.19.08 @ 6:29PM|#
Why does an allegedly libertarian blog like Reason still
allow posts by an apologist for a massively failed and horrendously
expensive government program like the war in Iraq?
Let a thousand flowers bloom, man. I don't think there's any danger
of Mr. Young luring Reason readers over to the Necroconservative
side at this point.
|10.19.08 @ 6:34PM|#
I thought the same thing a while ago.
If we took Hussian out in 1991, no reason not to, there whould have
been no war now, no September 11, in other words peasce.
Powell, Scrowoft, Baker, Christopeher are all in the spineless,
ponder, then say the obvious but make it sound profund asshole hall
of fame.
Remember if Hussian was taking out in 1991, Powell would not have
been invited to sit on AOL board of directors, no lobby fees,
nothing.
Financially, like Scrowoft, Baker and Albright, he would have been
worse off.
You go Mike.
Powell douche bag. Real brave of him now to endorse Obama.
Good NEWS: OBAMA IS GOING TO LOSE. Then hopefully, we will have
heard the last of Powell.
|10.19.08 @ 7:09PM|#
A view I disagree with! Fire him! Get rid of this enemy of the
people! I can't handle it.
Oh, and kudos to those here who are actually engaging in an
argument rather than hyperventilating that Young is allowed to
publish anywhere other than IN HELL (because that is where everyone
who disagrees with me belongs!!!)
Minion of URKOBOLD|10.19.08 @ 7:15PM|#
SOMEBODY TAPE OVER "VID" ASAP. HIS VIEWS GIVE SOMEONE SOMEWHERE
MENTAL TAPEWORM.
HE CANNOT UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S NOT DISAGREEMENT, BUT THAT IT WAS A
DISASTROUS POLICY.
THE WEIBSKOBOLD SHALL FLOG MR. STEVEN CRANE (WHEN HE'S FOUND, THAT
IS).
AND VID SHALL BE HENCEFORTH KNOWN AS "VHS MAN. BECAUSE BETA IS
SUPERIOR"
Fluffy|10.19.08 @ 7:19PM|#
Michael Young's post here is a nice little microcosm of how the
pro-war movement has treated the men it has duped into being its
tools.
The cycle goes something like this: First, rope an otherwise
honorable person into supporting your idiotic policies. Then, when
those policies fail to work, because they're idiotic, blame not the
architects of those policies, but the sap you tricked into trying
to execute them. After that, if your dupe tries to wise up, and get
his hands clean, you can dismiss anything he says because the guy's
"a failure".
This disgusting display has been duplicated many times, and it's
one of the major reasons why I would advise any person with talent
or integrity to run from the GOP establishment as fast as they can,
and refuse to participate in their undertakings, and not give in to
the temptation of thinking that they can somehow mitigate whatever
disaster they're planning. The GOP views the honor, dignity and
reputation of every American to be nothing more than coin to be
spent to protect their moron President and his mendacious and
incompetent underlings. They traded Powell's credibility for
momentary political advantage years ago, and now they're happy to
spit at him and call him a tribalist for political benefit now.
Fluffy|10.19.08 @ 7:23PM|#
Remember if Hussian was taking out in 1991, Powell would not
have been invited to sit on AOL board of directors, no lobby fees,
nothing.
What kind of idiotic statement is this?
Really, how stupid do you have to be to think this?
Unless Powell did something to go to Leavenworth, once he was out
of the military he was going to be able to serve on any corporate
board he wanted.
Are you seriously a big enough fool to argue that Powell made the
decision on how to advise Bush I based on what he thought his
postwar employment prospects were? If so, you are too stupid to
have an opinion on anything ever again.
|10.19.08 @ 7:24PM|#
So who's the bigger douche:
Someone who thinks we should invade Iraq and tries to convince
others that we should invade, or,
Someone who thinks we should not invade Iraq and convinces millions
that we should invade?
Reality Check|10.19.08 @ 7:25PM|#
No, T. 7 digit or maybe 8.
8 digit? More than anybody in WW2 except China and USSR?
Get a grip.
Fluffy|10.19.08 @ 7:25PM|#
Oh, speaking of neocons, this really brightened my day:
A little while ago I was watching Fox News and Bill Kristol came on
and was talking to Chris Wallace. And my wife looked at Bill
Kristol and said,
"He's a 'confirmed bachelor', right?"
I only just stopped laughing a little while ago.
Reality Check II|10.19.08 @ 7:26PM|#
Iraq has a population of just short of 30 million. To say they lost 10 million is the height of asininity.
Dave W.|10.19.08 @ 7:28PM|#
The evidence that it is 8 is as convincing, no more and no less, than that it is less than 8. All militarymen should stop fighting there.
|10.19.08 @ 7:29PM|#
"If we took Hussian out in 1991, no reason not to, there whould
have been no war now, no September 11, in other words
peasce."
We'd probably be where we are now, we just would have been there
for coming up on the third decade rather than second.
|10.19.08 @ 7:33PM|#
What the fuck is wrong with the GOP?
I mean, I voted for John Warner over Mark Warner years ago when I
lived in VA. My positions on gun control and affirmative action
should make people like me want to vote anti-Democratic.
But I mean I would just literally throw up if I had to vote for the
current GOP. They seem to appeal to the lowest common denominator
now. Their anti-intellectualism has reached an insane climax.
It's actually a bad thing to be well spoken, well read, well
educated for them. What the fuck is that?
BDB|10.19.08 @ 7:37PM|#
MNG--
The Republicans are becoming the Party of old, white, rural,
uneducated protestants. Anyone else is not welcome. Look at the
hatred James Ard gave to Tom Davis on the other thread.
BDB|10.19.08 @ 7:38PM|#
I should add a "white" qualifier to that. Bush/Rove hispanic strategy? Not if Tom Tancredo and Mitt Romney have anything to say about it!
|10.19.08 @ 7:56PM|#
Ammonium,
I see Colin Powell as a tragic figure, in the classic Greek
sense.
He was against this war, but he felt he had a duty to be a good
soldier for the President of the United States for whom he worked,
a view of his responsibility to his nation that goes back to the
days when he bled for it on the battlefields of Vietnam.
This is a classic example of great evil coming out of a drive that
is fundamentally virtuous, but limited and unable to temper that
virtue with judgement.
I can't look at him and think "douchebag." I can only shake my head
sadly.
BDB|10.19.08 @ 7:56PM|#
Yeah. And the "real Virginia". Did you hear what McCain's spokeswoman said about that?
|10.19.08 @ 8:14PM|#
What's this about "uneducated" protestants? I know there are a bunch of elitists here who think anything less than a doctorate is being uneducated, but I'm just not seeing large blocs of uneducated folk in this country. High school diplomas are nearly universal, associate degrees a dime a dozen, and B.A.s are the new bottom rung. Yeah, I know you can find people who dropped out of eighth grade, but they just aren't enough old white uneducated protestants to count as anyone's voting base.
|10.19.08 @ 8:20PM|#
If we took Hussian out in 1991, no reason not to, there
whould have been no war now, no September 11, in other words
peasce.
That's idiotic. We would have lost a lot of our allies and the UN
mandate that we had would have likely gone away. Not to mention,
OBL would have still been around and would still be pissed off
about us.
Conservationist|10.19.08 @ 8:22PM|#
The GOP is trying to appease the mostly-liberal-thinking voter
horde, not realizing that people don't vote for reality. They vote
for uplifting fantasy.
The war in Iraq will turn out to have been necessary to scare off
all future terrorist groups from taking a shot at us. When you're
the big dog, you have to beat someone to hell -- just about anyone
-- if someone takes a shot at you.
Welcome to realpolitik.
|10.19.08 @ 8:31PM|#
Brandybuck,
According to the Census, for people older than 25, 14% don't have
high school degrees, 62% don't have a college degree (associates or
higher), 19% have bachelors and 10% have graduate degrees.* So
there are more people that are high school dropouts than people
with a masters or PhD.
* This is all highest educational attainment.
|10.19.08 @ 8:32PM|#
Terrorists don't mind if you beat the hell out of someone else.
That's what they're hoping for.
See? They really are waging a war against Islam. It doesn't matter
if you didn't do anything to them, it doesn't matter if you aren't
siding with us, they consider you the enemy anyway.
Read a little about the IRA. Provoking poorly-targeted
overreactions is what gets these people out of bed in the
morning.
BDB|10.19.08 @ 8:33PM|#
People call Bachelors "bottom rung" even though only 19% of the
population have them?
Sour grapes?
|10.19.08 @ 8:36PM|#
BDB,
Actually, it's 29%, you have to add the people with higher degrees
into the total. 19% have a bachelor's as their highest degree.
BDB|10.19.08 @ 8:37PM|#
I'm kidding of course. I know how Brandybuck was
thinking--everyone I know personally has a college degree, as does
everyone I work with. It's just your peer group, though, not the
general population.
I really thought it would be like 33%, not 19%!
BDB|10.19.08 @ 8:38PM|#
Mo--
Got it. Still, I thought around 33% would have at least
Bachelors.
Ones peer group distorts perspective.
BDB|10.19.08 @ 8:45PM|#
TAO--
SIV said, since you are in training to be a lawyer, that you aren't
a "real American".
That's all you need to know! ;)
BDB|10.19.08 @ 8:55PM|#
Not if you live in the "real America" and "real Virginia", MNG. I still can't believe the McCain campaign had ones of its spokeswoman channel George Allen.
|10.19.08 @ 8:59PM|#
SIV said, since you are in training to be a lawyer, that you
aren't a "real American".
He said that? What a douche.
I'm resolving to be nicer to people, btw. I think that it's what
counts.
SIV|10.19.08 @ 9:01PM|#
TAO
No I didn't say anything like that.
But since you are asking I'll say "Suck my Dick you fucking pussy."
Yeah that is for listening to twits and taking their word for what
I said.
|10.19.08 @ 9:04PM|#
SIV - I should have said "IF he said that, THEN he's a douche".
It was a conditional statement.
My apologies.
SIV|10.19.08 @ 9:07PM|#
Apology accepted.You offer a lot of interesting commentary here
whether I agree with it or not.
You might want to consider the source of who claimed I did on
anything else it might say.
|10.19.08 @ 9:08PM|#
Brandybuck,
I'll add that those that do have bachelors degrees are by no means
well educated. Some of the people I see I see coming out of
bullshit undergrad programs make me think that a bachelors degree
barely means you can read anymore.
|10.19.08 @ 9:09PM|#
You offer a lot of interesting commentary here whether I
agree with it or not.
Oh jeez, no I don't! I'm probably one of the least intelligent
posters here. But thank you anyway.
BDB|10.19.08 @ 9:12PM|#
I'll add a "joking" tag to my future statements like that, since some people's snark meters are broken.
Mosby|10.19.08 @ 9:14PM|#
domoarrigato,
Absolutely. To me having a humanities degree is akin to graduating
high school twice.
|10.19.08 @ 9:14PM|#
And my two cents on CP is that I agree he is a (greek) tragic figure. I have a lot of respect for the guy, despite his periodic failures. I'm personally glad he endorsed Obama - at least he can exact some measure of vengeance for the incompetents dragging his name through the mud. He fell on his sword for a lie.
SIV|10.19.08 @ 9:15PM|#
domo,
I have found an anecdotal direct correlation
between holding a graduate degree and a complete inability to read
a topographic map.A GIS certificate actually makes it worse. My
sample does not include anyone with an actual graduate degree in
geography.
|10.19.08 @ 9:15PM|#
Michael Young is still publishing his thoughts? Damn, he's as shameless as he is dimwitted.
|10.19.08 @ 9:20PM|#
SIV - back when I was in the Air Force at the imagery and mapping agency, I worked with quite a number of army terrain analysts. They could make a map using GIS you wouldn't believe but could get lost between the taco bell and the Chinese dragon in the food court.
Close Enough for Govt Work|10.19.08 @ 9:20PM|#
Got it. Still, I thought around 33% would have at least
Bachelors.
Ones peer group distorts perspective.
29% have at least a bachelors. I would call that 'around 33%'
SIV|10.19.08 @ 9:22PM|#
Mosby,
Not if you went to public high school!
re Colin Powell:
His statement about Supreme Court justices gives away his actual
political views.McCain is not considered to be "reliable" on
appointing conservative Justices while Obama is assumed to favor
liberal justices.That he would assume the "moderate Mccain" would
chose too conservatively puts Powell well left of center on the
issue.
Considering how late he waited to make an endorsement his motive
appears to be self interest in a political appointment.It would be
nice if his "Powell Doctrine" has some influence on a President
Obama's foreign interventionism but he burnt up any credibility on
Iraq II.
|10.19.08 @ 9:23PM|#
Mosby,
"Absolutely. To me having a humanities degree is akin to graduating
high school twice."
that's only if you went to the top 5-10% of high schools. But you
know, I've met people that are highly educated that have no degree
- for me education is nothing more or less than continuing
intellectual curiosity.
|10.19.08 @ 9:26PM|#
To me having a humanities degree is akin to graduating high
school twice.
Anecdotally speaking, high school is a joke. College is the first
place that I was actually intellectually stimulated, humanities
degree* or not.
* - I have two degrees, one in the "humanities" and one in the
"sciences".
Imperialist|10.19.08 @ 9:29PM|#
The surge is working. Pretty soon we will have control over oil industry there. It's going to work out just fine for us. And it doesn't really matter how many dark skinned people perish along the way.
SIV|10.19.08 @ 9:30PM|#
I hesitate to digress but I associate "education" with the institutional bureaucracies that claim a monopoloy on it.What people learn themselves in or outside such institutions is learning, knowledge, wisdom, skill etc.
kinnath|10.19.08 @ 9:31PM|#
My high school diploma is worth something. Of course it was earned in the 70's before the self-esteem generation hit school.
THIS IS A WEAK ATTEMPT AT HUMO|10.19.08 @ 9:36PM|#
Ones peer group distorts perspective.
Did you get that idea from your peers?
Mike Farmer|10.19.08 @ 9:39PM|#
I think the Republicans are trying to get the "common folk" vote and it's a pathetic show (it's pathetic when either party tries to get the "common folk" vote - but they really, in their actions, are morphing into the Democrat Party at the higher levels of the Party, on most issues - the superficial differences are for appearances. We basically have one party now -- the Democrat Party. If the Democrats end the war and don't start another one, and start closing military bases that are based on a cold war mindset, they will have somewhat made up for their stupid economic policies -- somewhat.
concerned observer|10.19.08 @ 9:46PM|#
The right liked Colin Powell when he was a "clean" black who supported their policies but now that he has dared diverge the party line he will probably be just another black guy that they hate.
cocow3boyz|10.19.08 @ 9:55PM|#
Maybe if we all close our eyes and go to sleep, maybe the boggie men will all go away and leave the U.S alone.
|10.19.08 @ 9:56PM|#
If Richard Perle can criticize the CIA for overestimating the Iraq threat, then I guess Michael Young can criticize Powell for helping to sell the wars that Michael Young fervently supports. The hate is mightier than the irony.
|10.19.08 @ 10:00PM|#
Maybe Powell is in the closet and he made a deal with BFrank not to out him in exchange for a Dem endorsement...so clever
Bingo|10.19.08 @ 10:01PM|#
And to think he was one of the good ones... well, you know how it is with those people.
Bingo|10.19.08 @ 10:07PM|#
You know the continent of Africa? That's what America's future looks like. Say goodbye to our first-world status!
Bingo|10.19.08 @ 10:12PM|#
You support a socialist Muslim atheist... when our country is in Iraq fighting the greatest enemy we've ever faced? What sense does that make! Our money has "In God We Trust" on it for a reason, no wonder the economy is tanking.
Bingo|10.19.08 @ 10:22PM|#
Being a rabid McCain supporter is like putting your brain on cruise-control... this is kind of fun!
Michelle Obama|10.19.08 @ 10:25PM|#
Reperations Its not just the money.
Miss Elizabeth need to scrub mah flows foh a few hundred years.
Michelle Obama|10.19.08 @ 10:43PM|#
Why is it that any time a Brutha gets success he has to have a Blonde White bitch? Isn't a Sistuh good enuff? Well at least mah man.......Barry! Get yo ass over heah!
GILMORE|10.19.08 @ 10:47PM|#
Mr. Nice Guy | October 19, 2008, 7:40pm | #
re, "old, white, protestant, uneducated, etc.)
BDB
I hear ya BDB
I also agree.
a thought i've had for a while =
The GOP long ago sold itself downriver for cheap to the "base"...
e.g. Southern Baptist Convention, Colorado springs focus on the
family, talk radio, reactionary "for the troops!"/"secure the
borders!" types, and now its coming back to bite them in the
ass.
I think the traditional GOP "country club conservative"+small
business owner+libertarian constituency etc. could eventually be
reconstituted... or at the least come to represent a larger share
of the republican platform. I think the republicans need a
wholesale restructure from top to bottom to present a viable
alternative. They've got to completely fracture first, however, and
i think the process will take years.
I would endorse a party that returned to a russel kirk/buckley/alan
bloom/milton friedman/"That government is best which governs
least;"- philosophical core.
They have to ease up on the God Guns and Gays, culture-war issues.
and please stop talking about the "MSM", when that is generally
code language for "I dont read much, and dont believe what I read
anyway"-appeal to ignorance rhetoric.
I think the 'elites' in the GOP really should be more influential.
George Will has written some of the best critiques of McCain and
the GOP strategies. By doing nothing but focusing on wedge issues,
they've failed to do anything on the core issues.
If a small-govt, fiscally conservative GOP could be resuscitated,
it could win future presidential elections. But I think there are
generational issues that will have to be overcome and unless they
choose consciously to purge the "kill him!"-screamers and bible
thumpers, they're going to be waiting the next 12-16 years for a
major comeback.
|10.19.08 @ 10:59PM|#
"The GOP long ago sold itself downriver for cheap to the
"base"... e.g. Southern Baptist Convention, Colorado springs focus
on the family, talk radio, reactionary "for the troops!"/"secure
the borders!" types, and now its coming back to bite them in the
ass."
The Dixiecrats left the Democrats and joined the Republicans, and
now the GOP is boiling itself down to a pseudo-Dixiecrat core,
minus the outright segregation.
GILMORE|10.19.08 @ 11:01PM|#
uh, 2 things.
1) what the fuck was that argument about education? People with
bachelors degrees in X,Y,orZ shouldnt feel compelled to brag about
it. It's basically saying, "in *theory*, im not a complete
idiot"
as a side note, i'm reminded of a previous guy who made a bunch of
ignorant posts about finance, and when he's called out, he cited
his BA in econ, and disparaged actual FINRA reps as "only needing a
GED". i guess his point being, 'people who really engage this stuff
every day of their lives are somehow not as qualified as people who
did a few pieces of homework on it when they were 19 years
old."
2) whats with the asshole posting inane racist jokes using other
peoples handles?
|10.19.08 @ 11:11PM|#
"The Dixiecrats left the Democrats and joined the Republicans,
and now the GOP is boiling itself down to a pseudo-Dixiecrat core,
minus the outright segregation."
dead on. I've made this argument to my GOP friends for some time.
Seems like the major push back I get is the religious angle. The
dixiecrat types have a big overlap with the Bible thumpers - and
once you start trying to make the argument to abandon the christian
right - they get all defensive. It's like the annoying friend you
are always apologizing for bringing along to your other friends.
Pretty soon your other friends "are busy" because they know
douchebag is coming with you. But when someone suggests you lose
the guy, you say "but he's the only friend I have left" Well
obviously.
thoreau|10.19.08 @ 11:15PM|#
I'm thinking the Reason Foundation gets a check for doing so
from a corporation with an innocuous sounding name that shares a
single DC address with several other corporations with innocuous
sounding names.
Chalabi & Sons Inc.?
Heinrick|10.19.08 @ 11:31PM|#
"If we took Hussian out in 1991, no reason not to, there whould
have been no war now, no September 11, in other words
peasce."
Why was there no reason not too, and how would having taken out
someone that had nothing to do with 9/11 have stopped 9/11?
|10.19.08 @ 11:49PM|#
14% of adults don't have a diploma? Now I truly am depressed. Even more depressing are the continuing efforts to get these people to vote. I say we bring back literacy tests at the polls.
|10.19.08 @ 11:56PM|#
its funny, when Colin Powell was an insider in the Bush
Administration until he was obviously used the Republicans loved
the ground he walked on. Now he speaks out against them he suddenly
is a non valid figure.
I am so tired of the Republican agenda. I am an independent and
will never vote Republican again.
GILMORE|10.20.08 @ 12:05AM|#
Neither here nor there, but =
domoarrigato | October 19, 2008, 9:23pm | #
I've met people that are highly educated that have no degree - for
me education is nothing more or less than continuing intellectual
curiosity.
well said.
SIV|10.20.08 @ 12:16AM|#
autoprt | October 19, 2008, 11:56pm | #
its funny, when Colin Powell was an insider in the Bush Administration until he was obviously used the Republicans loved the ground he walked on. Now he speaks out against them he suddenly is a non valid figure.
I am so tired of the Republican agenda. I am an independent and will never vote Republican again.
Well if you vow to never vote Republican again, regardless of who runs under their banner or what the "platform" is that makes you either a Democrat, a dedicated third party voter or an apolitical/apathetic/ or non voter,
NOT an "independent".Let me guess.......
elmo|10.20.08 @ 12:43AM|#
thank you gilmore. i like your appraisal, also your handle evokes pink floyd laser shows for me which is endearing. you may have noticed that i dont use punctuation [cept periods] and that is because i am a proud high school dropout. as sam clements said, 'i never let school get in the way of my education.' it is great fun to have political discussions with my ivy educated friends.
tarran|10.20.08 @ 12:46AM|#
Bullshit SIV.
You can be an independent and decide you will never again vote for
the Green Party, or the Nazi Party, or the Libertarian Party, or
even the Green Libertarian Nazi Party and still retain your
independence.
A guy who vows never to consider voting for a particular party can
still be indpendent. It merely means that that particular party is
no longer worthy of consideration -> not that one is loyal to
other political parties.
|10.20.08 @ 12:55AM|#
Well if you vow to never vote Republican again, regardless
of who runs under their banner or what the "platform" is that makes
you either a Democrat, a dedicated third party voter or an
apolitical/apathetic/ or non voter,
NOT an "independent".Let me guess.......
Well maybe autoprt's a little long in the tooth and only has to
worry about 1 or 2 elections to come. I think it's a safe bet that
GOP will be the wrong choice for a while... then again 4 years is a
lifetime in politics.
highnumber|10.20.08 @ 1:13AM|#
What's this about "uneducated" protestants? I know there are
a bunch of elitists here who think anything less than a doctorate
is being uneducated, but I'm just not seeing large blocs of
uneducated folk in this country. High school diplomas are nearly
universal, associate degrees a dime a dozen, and B.A.s are the new
bottom rung.
And education ain't what it used to be.
GILMORE|10.20.08 @ 1:54AM|#
elmo | October 20, 2008, 12:43am | #
thank you gilmore. i like your appraisal, also your handle evokes
pink floyd laser shows for me which is endearing
If you mean at the (former) hayden auditorium/planetarium in NYC,
hell yeah, i saw like 3 pink floyd laserlight shows in all their
80s glory. But i am not related to Dave. unfortunately.
|10.20.08 @ 2:34AM|#
Bring back literacy tests at the polls? Brandybuck, how many
bubbles are in a bar of soap?
If you don't know (without using Google) what that refers to, then
you are perhaps too illiterate to be voting.
How about "Segregation now! Segregation tomorrow! Segregation
forever!"
TallDave|10.20.08 @ 3:05AM|#
I keep posting/trolling under different names because I'm a
basket case and I can't help myself. And like Eric Dondero, I'm a
fake libertarian who supports authoritarian Republicans, but I make
him look stable by comparison.
Someone shoot me, please.
Geotpf|10.20.08 @ 5:07AM|#
"When he was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff he opposed
George H.W. Bush's decision to remove Iraqi forces from Kuwait
militarily, even though the decision was ultimately a sound
one."
No it wasn't. Ultimately, that decision on the part of Bush 41 was
an extremely poor one. Invading Iraq set in motion a series of
events which directly led to 9/11.
I'm serious.
Here's what happened. When Saddan invaded Kuwait, the House of Saud
felt threatened as well. Bin Laden et al, fresh from kicking the
Soviets out of Afghanistan, offered his services to the Saudis to
protect the kingdom. The Saudis told him to go play in traffic, and
got a really army, namely the US, to do the job. Bin Laden got his
panties in a wad (Heathens protecting the Muslim Holy Land! Women
driving cars! Oh my!), wait a decade or so, stir, 9/11.
Basically, 9/11 was, on some level, caused by petty jealousy on the
part of Bin Laden due to him losing a military contract to the US
Army.
Blowback is a bitch.
Lies That Life is Black & Whit|10.20.08 @ 5:58AM|#
...Spoke to my skull I dreamed
My Barack Pages
Bullshit is Bullshit
McCain is Bullshit from the get-go
Folks, use your sense & vote third party this year.
best wishes,
'nother 3rd party voter
|10.20.08 @ 8:24AM|#
Interesting thread. Methinks the last laugh may well be on God in this joke of an election. And no, God ain't Obama or any of his illuminati cronies, regardless of their skin color.
|10.20.08 @ 8:25AM|#
Reality Check | October 19, 2008, 7:25pm | #
No, T. 7 digit or maybe 8.
8 digit? More than anybody in WW2 except China and USSR? Get a
grip.
Yeah, sorry Reality Check, Reality Checks are doomed to fail on
that one.
Good try though, and thanks for the link, it brought up some
interesting questions. I'd like to see similar numbers on other
wars.
|10.20.08 @ 8:33AM|#
Geotpf | October 20, 2008, 5:07am | #
"When he was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff he opposed
George H.W. Bush's decision to remove Iraqi forces from Kuwait
militarily, even though the decision was ultimately a sound
one."
No it wasn't. Ultimately, that decision on the part of Bush 41 was
an extremely poor one. Invading Iraq set in motion a series of
events which directly led to 9/11.
I'm serious.
Here's what happened. When Saddan invaded Kuwait, the House of Saud
felt threatened as well. Bin Laden et al, fresh from kicking the
Soviets out of Afghanistan, offered his services to the Saudis to
protect the kingdom. The Saudis told him to go play in traffic, and
got a really army, namely the US, to do the job. Bin Laden got his
panties in a wad (Heathens protecting the Muslim Holy Land! Women
driving cars! Oh my!), wait a decade or so, stir, 9/11.
Basically, 9/11 was, on some level, caused by petty jealousy on the
part of Bin Laden due to him losing a military contract to the US
Army.
Blowback is a bitch.
Egg fucking sactly.
Given all that, that more people should know.
What does GW do after 9/11? Rather what should he have done?
I personally think that Gulf War 1 was wrong.
Should never have happened. Was not our business.
Given that it did in fact happen, and that we got attacked on 9/11
for basically containing Saddam.
Should we just leave from the ME and assume that is not going to be
taken as a sigh of weakness for further attacks?
|10.20.08 @ 9:08AM|#
If the world lets big nations gobble up and annex little countries, it will never stop.
|10.20.08 @ 9:27AM|#
This story was planted to distract people from the work Obama's field agent, Sean Penn, is doing right now to undermine American capitalism.
|10.20.08 @ 9:31AM|#
Rumor had it that the Kuwaitees were drilling at angles that
allowed them to tap into Iraqi oil fields. If that was occuring,
then Hussein had justification for what he did. We took his action
and used it as an excuse to take over their oil. But the time
wasn't right and the world wasn't willing.
U.S. presence in Iraq was, is, and always will be about 1 thing and
1 thing only, Oil. Freedom? bullshit. Democracy? Bullshit.
Genocide? bullshit. WMD's? a double shot-o-bullshit. Oil Oil
Oil.
|10.20.08 @ 9:46AM|#
Nice post. I've never been a Powell fan; he's always been an
Establishment Liberal.
Still, one aspect of this endorsement that has not been highlighted
is Powell's conflict of interest. He has a vested interest in an
investment fund that is betting massively on green technology,
carbon credits, and the like. He stands to profit from an Obama
administration, IOW.
|10.20.08 @ 9:47AM|#
I tapped a piece sideways once or twice. It can be done.
BB, that was always a weak anti-coalition line. You would be
talking about oil available right along the border only. That's
like someone reaching over your fence to pick your grapes, while
your garden stretches for miles. Kuwait had oil and a nice coast
and they were weak.
|10.20.08 @ 9:49AM|#
Still, one aspect of this endorsement that has not been
highlighted is Powell's conflict of interest. He has a vested
interest in an investment fund that is betting massively on green
technology, carbon credits, and the like. He stands to profit from
an Obama administration, IOW.
By this logic, every single person with a net income about $250k
who endoresed John McCain has a conflict of interest that should be
covered.
|10.20.08 @ 10:07AM|#
joe | October 20, 2008, 9:49am | #
Still, one aspect of this endorsement that has not been highlighted
is Powell's conflict of interest. He has a vested interest in an
investment fund that is betting massively on green technology,
carbon credits, and the like. He stands to profit from an Obama
administration, IOW.
By this logic, every single person with a net income about $250k
who endoresed John McCain has a conflict of interest that should be
covered.
And probably those of us who don't also, because we don't believe
that those who make over 250k will be taking the tax burden at
all.
Actually, REALLY, will most of those who make more than 250 really
pay any taxes? I think not, even if they do, they will pay them out
of my paycheck. So really anyone who makes money has a conflict of
interest with Obama.
Well a conflict of interest with both, Obama and McCain. They are
both socialist and both of them believe that government should be
allowed to access our wealth as government sees fit.
|10.20.08 @ 10:12AM|#
joe | October 20, 2008, 9:08am | #
If the world lets big nations gobble up and annex little countries,
it will never stop.
Well I disagree on various levels.
I disagree that "the world" is necessarily us.
I disagree that "it will never stop".
And I think that is what alliances are about.
Georgia wasn't in one. Neither was Kuwait.
Want to not get gobbled up by a bigger evil country? Be part of an
alliance. Hello Nato.
|10.20.08 @ 10:20AM|#
kwais,
What is this "the world is necessarily us" business? You do recall
that GHW Bush went to the UN, got a Security-Council authorization,
and built a global coalition to act according to the UN mandate,
right?
Want to not get gobbled up by a bigger evil country? Be part of
an alliance. Hello Nato. NATO wasn't exactly chomping at the
bit to admit Kuwait.
Also, Russia didn't gobble up Georgia. They launched a punitive
attack, then left.
|10.20.08 @ 10:30AM|#
Well, I'm shocked - shocked! - that Powell's endorsement may
have a job attached to it.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/chronicle/6067997.html
nebby|10.20.08 @ 10:40AM|#
I am still trying to wrap my head around the concept of a Muslim atheist.
|10.20.08 @ 10:44AM|#
By this logic, every single person with a net income about
$250k who endoresed John McCain has a conflict of interest that
should be covered.
As I have mentioned numerous times, my taxes will go up
significantly under Obama, and I am fully aware that this is one of
the reasons I am so opposed to him.
Still, I think there is a qualitative difference between supporting
a candidate because his tax policy will be less punitive to you,
and supporting a candidate because you stand to profit directly
from his policies.
Everyone who has spent the last 8 years busting Dick Cheney's chops
for his connections to Halliburton should be busting Colin Powell's
chops for the same reasons, no?
|10.20.08 @ 10:51AM|#
Joe: No offense, but you don't have to actually occupy a country
to be an existential threat to it. If I want to rule you by fear, I
don't have to hold on to your collar 24/7.
All I have to do is beat you half to death once, and then say
"don't make me have to come back".
|10.20.08 @ 10:56AM|#
You do recall that GHW Bush went to the UN, got a
Security-Council authorization, and built a global coalition to act
according to the UN mandate, right?
Yeah, one of the reasons I dislike GHW Bush and Powell.
"no new taxes" and then lying is the reason I didn't vote for pappy
Bush, but that whole UN thing further justifies my not voting for
him.
|10.20.08 @ 10:59AM|#
nebby | October 20, 2008, 10:40am | #
I am still trying to wrap my head around the concept of a Muslim
atheist.
It is an easy enough concept. I can't figure out why it is not a
good thing though, in the grand scheme of things.
DannyK|10.20.08 @ 11:03AM|#
Has there every been a period of human history when strong and
large powers WEREN'T trying to gobble up or dominate small and weak
ones?
I can't think of a single one.
|10.20.08 @ 11:13AM|#
Everyone who has spent the last 8 years busting Dick Cheney's chops
for his connections to Halliburton should be busting Colin Powell's
chops for the same reasons, no?
Yeah,
I hear on that planet also the guys who are now peddling the Obama
is an Ayrab are instead talking about how religious intolerance of
any kind is the kind of thing that caused 9/11, and they are
looking into their own souls at this point.
|10.20.08 @ 12:01PM|#
"Why on earth do we listen to Colin Powell?"
If we stopped listening to people because they made a mistake in
the past, you, Michael Young, would be out of a job.
|10.20.08 @ 12:23PM|#
Two other things.
is SIV not denying that he posts under other names?
Or is he not seeing the accusations because he has the accusers
posts blocked?
Personally I like SIV's posts. I would though, I am
right/libertarian.
But I also like some of the left/libertarian posters, even the more
trollish ones.
Is TallDave a troll? He has more range that Lefiti and Concerned
Observer.
TallDave is more like a Dave W, but as far as I know, TallDave
doesn't have a stalker side to him.
|10.20.08 @ 12:28PM|#
Still, I think there is a qualitative difference between
supporting a candidate because his tax policy will be less punitive
to you, and supporting a candidate because you stand to profit
directly from his policies.
OK, let's think this through: if Barack Obama was proposing to
eliminate federal income taxes for a certain industry, and a big
wheel in that industry endorsed him, that wouldn't count as a
conflict of interest (according the RC Dean definition of the
term)?
It really doesn't matter that your political ideology idolizes tax
cuts, for the purpose of determining the financial interests of
people involved in the political system. You don't see me turning
around and saying that some benefit that accrues to some business
isn't irrelevant in determining the owners' financial interest
based on my ideological amity towards the underlying policy.
|10.20.08 @ 12:30PM|#
KFP,
No doubt, but when we're talking about the conquest and annexation
of countries, the stakes get even higher. There's even more history
there.
TallDave|10.20.08 @ 1:23PM|#
People forget that the Powell Doctrine was a failure as applied
in Iraq. It left us with a 15-year mess that is only now finally
being cleaned up.
The Powell doctrine of clearly defined and achievable objectives
that can be quickly achieved with massive force failed because it
says nothing about whether those objectives actually create
conditions for lasting peace.
Powell' failed concept of war has now been replaced by what might
be termed the Petraeus doctrine: make long-term sustainable
progress via a sustained, ground-level effort to bring local forces
onto your side politically as well as militarily.
|10.20.08 @ 2:16PM|#
"People forget that the Powell Doctrine was a failure as
applied in Iraq. It left us with a 15-year mess that is only now
finally being cleaned up."
The Powell Doctrine requires that politicians ask themselves the
tough questions and make sure they are solid on the answers. It
does not pass on the merits of those answers.
|10.20.08 @ 3:14PM|#
if Barack Obama was proposing to eliminate federal income
taxes for a certain industry, and a big wheel in that industry
endorsed him, that wouldn't count as a conflict of interest
(according the RC Dean definition of the term)?
I would agree that it is, because these kind of targeted tax cuts
are the equivalent of subsidies. It gets blurry at the edges, sure,
but there's a difference between raising/reducing the marginal tax
rate on the one hand, and industry specific taxes/tax breaks on the
other.
Everyone who has spent the last 8 years busting Dick Cheney's
chops for his connections to Halliburton should be busting Colin
Powell's chops for the same reasons, no?
So, how about it, joe? Is it more reprehensible for Dick Cheney to
support George Bush because of the benefits of a Bush regime for
Cheney's portfolio, than it is for Colin Powell to support Obama
because of the benefits of an Obama regime for Powell's
portfolio?
|10.20.08 @ 3:24PM|#
If a tax cut is going to leave me with $100k more at the end of
the year, I have exactly the same interest in seeing it pass if it
is a targetted tax cut as a broad-based tax cut.
The difference you speak of, RC, has nothing whatsoever to do with
the concept of conflict of interest.
I would say it's more reprehensible in Cheney's case, but only
because Cheney prevailed upon Bush to alter his positions to make
them more Halliburton-friendly (humble foreign policy and all of
that), while Powell is looking favorably upon the positions Obama
would support anyway.
Money following ideas vs. ideas following money.
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