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Live from the LP Convention: Nominating Speeches and the 2008 Candidate
As I walked onto the floor, one delegate ran up to me to gloat. "Did you know that C-Span's got the only cameras here?" he asked. "What about Bob Barr's media frenzy, huh? If he's getting so much attention, where's all the media?"
"The media already thinks he's the nominee," I said.
At the convention tables, the smears have stopped, and the endorsements have arrived. Three Libertarians have distributed letters in support of Bob Barr, and the Ruwart campaign has put out a letter with endorsements from four former LP presidential candidates and two former VP nominees. Well, sort of. Dave Bergland, Andre Marrou, and Tonie Nathan explicitly endorse Ruwart, while Michael Badnarik says she's "pretty, smart, and swings a huge philosophical bat," and Ron Paul appears in the form of his blurb for Healing Our World.
Wayne Allyn Root gets the first speaking slot—last night he promised something "spectacular," and what he provided was a video endorsement from radio host Mancow (a card-carrying Libertarian), an argument for Root's appeal from Manny Klausner, and a tender seconding speech from his daughter Dakota. Root's speech is light on policy, heavy on biography, ending with the story of his mother clinging to life while he rushed to visit her in the hospital. "Wayne is on the way, they kept saying," Root remembered. "When I got to that hospital room I heard the greatest sound I ever heard: Meep, meep, meep. She was still alive!"
Internet problems solved, I should be liveblogging for a while.
10:06: Barr is nominated by two local (one former) LP chairs and Rob Kampia of the Marijuana Policy Project. "Times have changed," Kampia says. "I debated Bob Barr on TV. I testified before his committee. Last year, Bob Barr lobbied for the MPP." The head of Atlas PAC calls Barr's media attention "air supplies being dropped down to the trenches of the candidates."
10:12: Barr gives about as good a speech as he could have. The biggest applause comes when he does what delegates have told me again and again they wanted him to do: Nail himself to the cross and apologize. "I have made mistakes," Barr says. "The only way you make mistakes is by getting in the arena and getting things done."
10:15: In a spot of luck, Barr is followed up by the utterly unserious Christine Smith. She's nominated by a guy who tried to give me the 9/11 Truther Rock Creek Press 10 minutes ago.
10:16: Classy: Smith wears an anti-Barr button onto the podium.
10:20: Smith whines about the party nominating "middle-aged white males" and says it's time for a female candidate. If it's barely working for Ruwart, why does she think it'll work for her?
10:24: Smith bashes the "neo-cons trying to take over this party," meaning Barr and Root. There are wild cheers from some of the people holding Ruwart signs, and even some standing ovations.
10:27: How objective does a reporter have to be about this? Smith has been ranting for 13 minutes and it's time for the hook.
10:33: Ruwart's introductory speaker is accompanied by a slideshow straight out of the alternative Libertarian universe where Ruwart is a superstar. Among her credentials: "Most popular writer on The Advocates e-zine." Her targeted voter groups:
Ron Paul supporters
Alternative medicine advocates
Women
Some overlap there, I think.
10:35: The speaker's pushing the "women want to vote for a woman" argument, and the slideshow is getting even more self-parodying. Oh, so Barr's got all that media attention? Here's a page from the New York Times that mentions her. Here's a copy of a Kalamazoo paper that covers her county commissioner race.
10:39: More from the speakers: "She'll build this party by continuing the Ron Paul Revolution." Barry Hess continues the "Ron Paul" theme, bashing Root and Barr (not by name): "They are the darling of the old media. The new media has Mary."
10:43: Ruwart's speech is surprisingly short, especially coming after the Smith debacle. It's rhetorically clever: A candidate who's benefitting from white-hot rage against the right side of the party calls for unity from all factions.
10:44: The reception for Ruwart is really something. Twice now she's spoken before the assembled LP delegates, and twice she's been solid but unimpressive. (She told some people last night that she regretted not drawing more contrasts with Barr at the debate.) Twice her supporters have remained completely in the tank. The threat of a Barr or Root "takeover" is just too much for them.
10:54: While George Phillies' supporters nominate him for far, far longer than is necessary, let me theorize why, if Barr loses, he will have lost. Obviously, a certain segment of the party was never reachable. But a large, swing vote is gettable for Barr. These voters just want to be convinced he's honest about his conversion and that he's not leading a right-wing coup of the party. A byword for "right-wing coup" is "suit." And Team Barr is an army of dark, shiny suits. Barr's done a good job telling the story of his conversion, but he could have done it with more delegates, diving into hospitality suites, arguing one on one. He needed this more than any candidate, save Root. He's done a lot of it, but we'll see how much is enough.
10:58: Phillies' nominating speakers really underline his links to Outright Libertarians. A heavy emphasis on gay marriage in all their comments, some of it very personal.
11:01: That was truly odd. Phillies' speakers went on for so long that he talked for less than a minute. His campaign is handing out a curious, unmarked CD-rom containing the contact info of LP donors.
11:02: David Nolan nominates Steve Kubby by praising all seven debaters from last night: I hear a coded appeal for calm among Barr and Root haters.
11:04: Well, maybe not. Nolan says Kubby doesn't have to apologize for taking away freedoms... like, you know, some people.
11:20: Russ Verney of the Barr campaign expects a three-way-tie, after the second ballot, between Barr, Ruwart, and Root. They don't believe all of Ruwart's delegates will stick after the first ballot, but nor do they know where the also-ran candidates' votes will go. "No one outside the top three really has the ability to move their delegates as a bloc."
11:25: Michael Jingozian uses his nominating speech time for a video that doesn't exactly scream "128th fastest growing company in America." Or maybe it does.
11:31: There's not a lot of substance in Jingozian's speech. It's the weakness I've seen time and again: He doesn't seem to have a commitment to libertarianism deeper than "let's abolish the stuff that doesn't work."
11:34: Well, that's a nice piece of theater: Jingozian nominates Gravel. I know he's telling his supporters to vote Gravel if he doesn't make it. It's a good fit: These are the two candidates with the most reflexively (accidentally?) liberal values on some tougher issues.
11:41: Gravel might make a powerful, popular LP member in a few years, but boy does he ever not have the jargon down yet. He refers to "you libertarians" and "the miracle you're involved in."
11:44: There's a lot of grumbling from Ruwart backers about Jingozian's move.
11:48: Gravel's giving a hell of a speech, but I have to love the line "the American people are smarter than their leaders: They just don't know it yet!"
11:50: The Barr people just did something stupid. They're doing a Ron Paul-esque march around the hall, in front of C-Span cameras, and it's inspired a wave of heckles and boos. They look, frankly, like assholes. "They're Republicans!" I overhear. "What do you expect?"
11:54: I'm told by Liberty's Andrew Ferguson that Kubby has been approached by basically every candidate as a VP nominee. You've got to love the political poetry of a Barr/Kubby ticket, however unlikely it now seems.
12:24: The TV audience probably has a better seat than me. I've been wondering around for a grasp on what will happen next. Delegate Bill Van Allen is walking the aisles with a Barr sign attached to a Ruwart sign: "Party unity, anybody?" He's arguing that Ruwart will get more attention as Barr's running mate than as the latest in the Marrou-Browne-Badnarik cavalcade o' irrelevance.
12:28: Here comes the state-by-state. Rumor is that Barr will come in third--which could make Root the "mainstream" candidate. He's been telling everybody who'll listen that he's the most popular 2nd choice.
12:34: Everybody's going after Kubby, one of the few candidates who's hinted he'll accept the VP slot. Phillies is probably out.
12:40: In a Libertarian world, there would be no need for endless state party speeches.
12:47: We're heading to a Root-Ruwart lead, with Barr back in third. Root romped in California with 38 votes (we will soon hear) to Ruwart's 20 and Barr's 17.
12:57: Arizona's 8 for Ruwart is pretty week: AZ and Texas have some of the most radical parties. But the support for Ruwart is broad, so she's picking up everywhere. The question is how many of them stay pledged to her.
1:09: Unless there's a huge Jingozian surge, it's a whopping six candidates in the next ballot: Root, Ruwart, Barr, Gravel, Kubby, Phillies.
1:11: A shock: Barr narrowly wins the first round. it's all from delegate replacements.
Barr 153
Ruwart 152
Root 123
Gravel 71
Philies 49
Kubby 41
41 are up for grabs.
1:18: Ruwart's comment: "I'm excited!" Russ Verney says Team Barr is doing what it expected, and waiting for commitments to end after the 2nd ballot.
1:21: Barr on Christine Smith: "I guess I'm not getting her vote."
1:34: The California delegation has voted: Barr gained 4, Root gained 3, and Ruwart stayed at 20 votes. Paul Thompson, the Delawarian who voted for Ron Paul, says he did it "for C-SPAN." He's going for Root now. (I have no problem divulging the "secret ballot" when the man is his entire delegation. You could deduce who he voted for...)
1:37: The second ballot is coming in.
Barr 188
Ruwart 162
Root 138
Gravel 73
Phillies 36
Kubby 32
One vote for none of the above. The Barr vote and Root vote combined is a majority, but don't assume that all Root voters are Barr voters. The anti-Barr vote is very, very strong, and we may start seeing Phillies and Kubby and Gravel voters moving to Ruwart no matter what their candidates say.
1:51: The Barr campaign isn't surprised by the Kubby endorsedment, but they worked for it damn hard. Kubby powerhouse Thomas Knapp is waving a Ruwart sign now, reflecting the endorsement. Barr's people are trying to make up for it by talking to Gravel delegates.
2:06: Overheard Root delegates saying "we'd all get fucked" if "she" led the ticket. Overheard some delegate of unknown provenance asking: "Who wants to be Ruwart's VP?" Sarcastically, I should say.
2:09: Results from the third ballot:
Barr 186
Ruwart 186
Root 146
Gravel 78
Phillies 31
Two votes for none of the above. Barr drops two, Ruwart goes up 24 (2/3 of the Kubby vote), Root goes up eight. Three people who voted in the second ballot didn't vote.
2:14: Worth keeping in mind: Phillies has been incredibly critical of Barr and Ruwart, and his supporters include lots of LGBTs. I expect some movement to Root.
2:16: Phillies speaks, and praises everyone but Barr and Ruwart, as I expected. But: "The enemy is not here. The enemy is out there!" It gets a roaring, screaming ovation. The LaRouche mention was well receieved. (It doesn't happen much these days, but for a while the meme that LaRouche was a libertarian was widespread and really, really irritating.)
2:34: Fourth ballot:
Barr 202
Ruwart 202
Root 149
Gravel 76
It. Never. Stops. The theory that Ruwart's support would peel off after their commitments ended seems to be non-functioning. I have no clue what Gravel will do as he exits the balloting, and I keep asking...
2:38: There's confidence in the Barr camp: They feel they'll get more of the Root vote than Ruwart gets of the Gravel vote.
2:49: I've heard that Gravel voted for Root on this ballot, and that they're gathered in a conference room now pooling their forces. I've seen Barr chatting with Gravel and Ruwart delegates, making the electability case.
2:50: Ran into Wisconsin's Ed Thompson, who says he's supporting Ruwart because "there'll be a lot of disaffected female voters" when Hillary loses. But he'd be happy with Barr.
2:57: Fifth ballot:
Ruwart - 229
Barr - 223
Root - 165
Root will endorse Barr.
3:07: Barr and Root are clustered together, talking to press, acting like they've won. They probably have. Delaware's Ron Paul guy, Paul Thompson, has voted for Barr. "Ruwart, once you look past her answers... they're the simplest things that just don't work."
3:14: Ruwart will endorse Kubby for VP. Get ready for another battle.
3:26: Gravel on why he didn't give a concession speech: "That's not my style." He'll send letters to all of the delegates instead.
3:27: It's all over but the heckling. Ruwart supporters look like they've had their heads shoved underwater: Barr and Root are doing smiley interviews with the national press.
3:30: Bob Barr wins the 2008 Libertarian Party nomination with 324 votes to Ruwart's 276.
4:07: Sorry for the hiatus: I was on C-Span. I'm spending the rest of the day figuring out what the hell Barr and the party are up to next.
4:09: Gotta love AP general knowledge of the LP: "Barr beat research scientist Mary Ruwart, who was the party's presidential nominee in 1983 and vice presidential candidate in 1992." That would have been impressive, if it wasn't totally false.
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 12:20PM|#
Dakota was simply fabulous. And the Mancow surprise was
stunning.
Good job Wayne Root campaign!
|5.25.08 @ 12:32PM|#
Smith was disgusting between her gender and race politics and her name calling of other candidates. Not to mention the guy introducing her looked like he crawled out of a hole. Having her on the stage was an embarrassment for the LP.
James Madison|5.25.08 @ 12:41PM|#
a pretty smug blog entry. Smith is a very good candidate, and I hope she runs again in 2012. And 9/11 is a great issue for the Libertarians, they have 1000 times more followers than reason magazine.
Brandybuck|5.25.08 @ 12:41PM|#
And the Mancow surprise was stunning.
Before you put him on your Christmas list, Eric, remember that this
is the guy who said he wanted to marry Ron Paul during an interview
with him.
|5.25.08 @ 12:45PM|#
And the Mancow surprise was stunning.
How the mighty have fallen. From trumpeting pictures of your
candidate atop the rubble of the WTC and on the cover of TIME
magazine, to holding your breath during an endorsement from a
morning radio shock jock, it's been a long and winding road, hasn't
it, Herr Dondero?
Brandybuck|5.25.08 @ 12:46PM|#
Now that she has come out of the 9/11 Truther closet, I have to drop all support for Smith. I apologize if my previous endorsement of her took any votes away from the other candidates. The LP needs to move forward, and not to pander to lobotomized.
Colin|5.25.08 @ 12:47PM|#
You're being far too objective, Dave.
These Truthers are just one small step above Holocaust deniers.
|5.25.08 @ 12:48PM|#
Ron Paul is fast becoming the Libertarian version of Ronald Reagan. I like him, but it's getting kind of pathetic.
Colin|5.25.08 @ 12:50PM|#
Dondero was on some other site saying that if the LP didn't
nominate Barr or Root, Libertarians for McCain was to start
immediately.
I kid you not.
Brandybuck|5.25.08 @ 12:51PM|#
Sleep Dirt|5.25.08 @ 12:51PM|#
The 9/11 Truther thing is a great litmus test for idiocy. When I was a kid, a candidate could go on for 20 minutes before saying something to tip off their Occham's Razor defying conspiracy fabulist ways.
|5.25.08 @ 12:53PM|#
These Truthers are just one small step above Holocaust deniers.
Most Truthere are holocaust deniers. Conspiracies
are like Ritz® Crackers. You can't believe just one. Given enough
time, any random Truther will end up believing a dozen wacky
theories, from Roswell, to the Protocols of Zion, to the Elks Lodge
Conspiracy.
William of Okkam|5.25.08 @ 12:59PM|#
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a conspiracy.
Kolohe|5.25.08 @ 12:59PM|#
I haven't seen Mancow in years, since I no longer am in the
right time zone for Fox & Friends.
I thought he was in the Dennis Miller "I'm a Libertarian but
Muslims are Scary" camp? Maybe I'm misremembering his views or he's
changed.
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 1:01PM|#
Yes, where's the news in that. Of course, Libertarians will be
launched shortly if Barr or Root do not win the nomination.
Why should you be surprised?
Give me an argument please why any mainstream libertarian would
want to support an Anarchist Leftwinger America-hater like Mary
Ruwart for President?
Why would any mainstream libertarian want to support the Pot
candidate, or the chic with the red hair who gives and awful speech
and has guys she just met and picked up at the convention nominate
her before a national C-SPAN audience?
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 1:02PM|#
Of course, I meant to say Libertarians for McCain will be launched. Blogging with an eye on C-SPAN.
|5.25.08 @ 1:03PM|#
Boston,
The Phillies people just did it too! At least they let Ronald
Reagan die before Republican candidates who fought against what he
was doing started trying to co-opt his popularity.
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 1:03PM|#
Ruwart's speech was very weak. I'm feeling more confident now
for a Barr or Root nomination. But Kubby could be a wild
card?
The other Marijuana guys are supporting Barr. This could get very
interesting.
|5.25.08 @ 1:04PM|#
I meant to say Libertarians for McCain will be
launched.
Which planet are they being launched to?
NoMoreImportantLibertarianIssu|5.25.08 @ 1:06PM|#
A heavy emphasis on gay marriage in all their comments, some of it very personal.
Boston|5.25.08 @ 1:06PM|#
She seemed to mention him more than anyone else last night too. Does she have some sort of connection with him? Cause it would seem he would have more in common with Barr, barring (ahem) the more virulent anti-war sentiment.
Jennifer|5.25.08 @ 1:09PM|#
The speaker's pushing the "women want to vote for a woman"
argument
Trying to overcome the LP's "sausage party" reputation, I see.
Kolohe|5.25.08 @ 1:10PM|#
11:01: That was truly odd. Phillies' speakers went on for so
long that he talked for less than a minute.
I've been flipping back and forth between Indy and C-Span. It seems
all the nominators are speaking longer than the nominees. The Kubby
introduction has taken long enough to watch a buggler, Jim
Neighbor, start your engines, and the warmup laps.
|5.25.08 @ 1:10PM|#
What do you mean by saying that she's a 'leftwinger'? Or, hell, 'America-hater'?
|5.25.08 @ 1:19PM|#
"I have never seen a candidate with such rock star status as
Michael Jingozian"
Did he steal a rough draft of Root's speech and do a
search-and-replace?
Boston|5.25.08 @ 1:23PM|#
Also he did a commerical with powerpoint. Better than the Badnarik commericals though.
|5.25.08 @ 1:24PM|#
Uh, we've already seen this part. Looks like Jingozian started his campaign video in the middle...how embarrassing.
Boston|5.25.08 @ 1:25PM|#
HEY! he emailed a bunch of people in less than a week. That demands respect.
D.A. Ridgely|5.25.08 @ 1:27PM|#
Give me an argument please why any mainstream libertarian
would want to support an Anarchist Leftwinger America-hater like
Mary Ruwart for President?
She hasn't mentioned her continued availability in case Bob Barr is
assassinated?
|5.25.08 @ 1:27PM|#
What the heck, Weigel? Are you asleep? There's a candidate begging to be made fun of up there!
Kolohe|5.25.08 @ 1:27PM|#
"and technology that rivals the best of the Democratic and
Republican candidates"
You know, mass marketing isn't rocket surgery. I'm mean, it's run
by marketing people.
David Weigel|5.25.08 @ 1:27PM|#
Eric, whether or not Ruwart gives a good speech is immaterial to her support.
Kolohe|5.25.08 @ 1:28PM|#
Hint, doon't make tiping miss steaks when insulting others's intelligence.
|5.25.08 @ 1:29PM|#
Give me an argument please why any mainstream libertarian
would want to support an Anarchist Leftwinger America-hater like
Mary Ruwart for President?
Why would any mainstream libertarian want to support the Pot
candidate, or the chic with the red hair who gives and awful speech
and has guys she just met and picked up at the convention nominate
her before a national C-SPAN audience?
Why would any libertarian-- mainstream or not-- support a neocon
authoritarian warmonger like John McCain?
|5.25.08 @ 1:32PM|#
I really think Weigel and I are at very different conventions.
Sure I see him wander in now and then and sit down but his
descriptions and what I'm seeing are not the same thing. I've read
his stuff before and never had reason to doubt the veracity of what
he writes -- until now. I think he is coloring things with his
personal opinions so much that it distorts his reporting.
Certainly for much of the reporting on the nomination process he
was sitting in front of the Barr booth with a TV screen and not in
the hall itself. That distorts the view of what is happening inside
the hall.
I think Barr is much weaker than expected here. And I'm suspecting
he will try to deal with Ruwart. His last minute conversion on his
antigay views are too little too late for a lot of delegtes.
It might have helped if Reason had a couple of people blogging on
the convention to give more perspective. Weigel is too narrowly
focused and his views seem to color his article so that readers
here are being a disservice.
|5.25.08 @ 1:35PM|#
Jingozian barely made it through his own speech without bursting
into tears, now he's going to nominate Gravel?
And Gravel was the only presidential candidate talking about the
evils of the two parties and the military-industrial complex? You
sir, fail the Ron Paul check test.
David Weigel|5.25.08 @ 1:37PM|#
Certainly for much of the reporting on the nomination
process he was sitting in front of the Barr booth with a TV screen
and not in the hall itself.
That's a lie. I watched the Barr speech from the Barr booth because
I couldn't get internet from the hall. Once I could, I re-situated
in the main hall, left of the Texas delegation. I've been there
since Christine Smith.
Kolohe|5.25.08 @ 1:38PM|#
Wait, I just switched back. Did one of the candidates (jingozian) just nominate another person for candidate? afaik you don't see that at the rep/dem convention.
|5.25.08 @ 1:43PM|#
Mike Gravel's trying the majority-must-rule shtick again. Has anybody told him yet that that's exact opposite of libertarianism?
|5.25.08 @ 1:43PM|#
Did anyone just see the hippie with the "V" mask on? Lord.
David, you're doin a hell of job.
|5.25.08 @ 1:43PM|#
He refers to "you libertarians" and "the miracle you're
involved in."
Weren't you criticizing him for saying "we libertarians" last
night?
D.A. Ridgely|5.25.08 @ 1:45PM|#
Ah, a rambling, barely coherent semi-senile candidate! That's the ticket!
|5.25.08 @ 1:47PM|#
Did anyone just see the hippie with the "V" mask on?
Lord.
If Hugo Weaving had been born in the US, he could definitely make a
run for the nomination, just on the strength of his voice.
|5.25.08 @ 1:47PM|#
What the hell is Gravel talkin about? Nothing "Libertarian" at all in his speech.
|5.25.08 @ 1:48PM|#
I think David is doing fine. Keep in mind that unlike most people blogging there, he's primarily focused on the article(s) he'll write about the convention, not the liveblogging part. I'm sure his final product will be of the high quality I've come to expect from reason.
|5.25.08 @ 1:49PM|#
Of course, I meant to say Libertarians for McCain will be
launched.
Don't let the door hit you on the wat out. If I never read or hear
another word by or about Donderooo0ooooo, I'd be mightily
pleased.
I almost started listing the reasons that McCain is unacceptable to
anyone serious aboout libertarian issues. It then dawned on me
that, with the exception of mental midgets, it's already a
given.
Seriously Eric, go away.
|5.25.08 @ 1:51PM|#
This is the same Dondero who was crowing about the "libertarian"
Rudy Giuliani and how he was going to smash "authoritarian" Hillary
Clinton in the general election a few months ago.
Hell hath no fury like a Congressional staffer scorned.
|5.25.08 @ 1:52PM|#
What the hell are those Bob Barr people doing? Are they
fucking insane?!
Are they trying to piss as many people off as possible? Maybe Barr
doesn't want the nomination.
Colin|5.25.08 @ 1:53PM|#
I wonder if delegates had to check their weapons at the door. If
Barr wins, there might be a shootout.
Boy, this is fun!
D.A. Ridgely|5.25.08 @ 1:53PM|#
The Barr campaign might have the least class of any campaign
ever.
Haven't been following Hillary, have you?
|5.25.08 @ 1:54PM|#
This has been the most interesting LP convention since 1988. I
was at the '88 convention, but I don't recall seeing Dondero there.
He might have been in his boss's hospitality suite getting drunk
though.
Frankly, I'm split between the Reformers and the Radicals. I used
to be with the RtLP, but Milsted is an ass. I'm a radical
minarchist in philosophy, but the reality we live demands
pragmatism. Holtz's fake flyers hit close to home. You're never
going to get more than 0.5% of the vote if the LP insists on
privatizing nuclear weapons and legalizing child pornography. Let's
legalize pot before we start demanding the right to sell heroin to
kindergartners!
|5.25.08 @ 1:55PM|#
Andy,
While the chairman was introducing the voting process, a bunch of
people started walking in front of the dais holding up Bob Barr
signs in front of the chairman. There was an eruption of boos from
the audience.
|5.25.08 @ 1:57PM|#
Oh, wow. Surely Barr himself didn't order that? Remembering the
Paul campaign, my first reaction is "supporters out of
control".
I hope they didn't hurt him. Being a rather radical minarchist
myself, I'm still hoping he gets the nomination. He could do
wonders for the party.
Guy Montag|5.25.08 @ 2:00PM|#
Good thing the ladies of the L party are not watching the Indy 500. Would be much squeeking I suspect.
Guy Montag|5.25.08 @ 2:01PM|#
From these descriptions of the conventioneers bahavior, it sounds like a bunch of Democrats, without the manners.
|5.25.08 @ 2:02PM|#
I'm with you Andy. Barr, may not be the "purist" that the radical section wants, but he could bring in a huge number of voters.
D.A. Ridgely|5.25.08 @ 2:03PM|#
Let's legalize pot before we start demanding the right to
sell heroin to kindergartners!
NEVER! IDEOLOGICAL PURITY OR DEATH! I SAY ONE MAN, ONE NUKE! CHILD
PORN BANS ARE RESTRAINT OF TRADE! ZONING LAWS AGAINST USING MY
BACKYARD AS A TOXIC WASTE DUMP IS AN ILLEGAL TAKING! COMPUTERS WITH
LOWER CASE TYPE ARE TOOLS OF THE 9/11 COVER UP! I CAN HAZ
CHEEZBURGER! ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO ME!
Guy Montag|5.25.08 @ 2:04PM|#
MW,
She is always fine! Hottest chick who has never known of my
existance.
Oh, um, she is running 11th right now, has been in the top 15 or
better the whole race as far as I have noticed.
The feminazis would be upset with the mishaps of Ms. Fisher. Lots
of Truther opportunity there. Especially after she spun herself out
in a turn, behind the pace car, during a caution.
D.A. Ridgely|5.25.08 @ 2:06PM|#
Can we have any bets here before the voting gets
started?
I'm betting whoever gets nominated doesn't get elected.
Guy Montag|5.25.08 @ 2:06PM|#
Matt,
You didn't send Mr. Balko to cover the Indy race? For shame, for
Cosmotarian shame!
Kolohe|5.25.08 @ 2:07PM|#
Good thing the ladies of the L party are not watching the
Indy 500. Would be much squeeking I suspect.
One of the ladies of the Indy 500 managed to spin out under a
yellow flag. That's surely a Libertarian Party level of
auto-trepanation.
(Thanks for the word, whomever wrote this the other day
(Brandybuck?))
Guy Montag|5.25.08 @ 2:07PM|#
DAR,
I'm betting whoever gets nominated doesn't get
elected.
I bet that whomever is nominated does not win a single State or
DC.
|5.25.08 @ 2:09PM|#
Something tells me that the Barr parade was Russ Verney's doing.
Just like Ted McGinley kills television shows, so does Russ Verney
kill political parties. From his antics back in the Reform Party,
chasing out Jesse Ventura and Jack Gargan, bringing in and then
going after Pat Buchanan, flirting with Donald Trump and John
Haeglin to now the obnoxious Barr campaign.
Watch out Constitution Party when Russ shows up to manage a
campaign in 2012!
Kris Overstreet|5.25.08 @ 2:12PM|#
I'm predicting Ruwart the early leader, but the longer the votes go, the more it favors Barr. The question is whether Barr or Root ends up third when the time comes. Root will back Barr over Ruwart, but Barr...?
|5.25.08 @ 2:15PM|#
Root would have won if he convinced people of taking the free undercoating and no down payment.
|5.25.08 @ 2:18PM|#
Root would have won if he convinced people of taking the
free undercoating and no down payment.
zing! I'm glad someone finally said it.
Kolohe|5.25.08 @ 2:20PM|#
Shouldn't true libertarians bring their own damn lunch?
Or have someone walking through selling turkey bacon wraps?
Matt Welch|5.25.08 @ 2:22PM|#
Root got zero votes in Nevada! But 38 from California! (According to watching them try to figure it out live on C-SPAN.) It's all very exciting.
effay|5.25.08 @ 2:22PM|#
Isn't Root supposed to be some sort of celebrity in Nevada or something and he gets no votes? Wha?
|5.25.08 @ 2:23PM|#
Root got 0 in Nevada!
This is fascinating, watching party apparatchiks plug the vote
totals into an Excel spreadsheet.
"you should put a sum cell at the bottom"
"no, don't hit undo!"
"it's in alphabetical order. Nevada. N-V. Right there."
effay|5.25.08 @ 2:24PM|#
Do they vote for party chair after all the President stuff, or have they already done that?
Guy Montag|5.25.08 @ 2:24PM|#
Kolohe, Matt, effay,
Sounds like time for yet another juicy conspiricy :)
Karl Rove plot just like Florida and Ohio?
Guy Montag|5.25.08 @ 2:27PM|#
Didn't someone just say "you need to carry the one"? I don't think they are using Excel.
chinsy|5.25.08 @ 2:27PM|#
Welch, Weigel:
Lay the odds. I'm willing to put up a pair of Phillies (the
baseball team, not the candidate) tickets for something of equal?
value.
Kolohe|5.25.08 @ 2:30PM|#
I've only heard Root speak for the first time this weekend. If I had to listen to him for years (like a Nevadan), my visceral dislike for him would be immeasurable.
D.A. Ridgely|5.25.08 @ 2:33PM|#
"Close enough"? Where's KPMG!
I hear the results have been kept since noon today in a mayonnaise
jar on Funk & Wagnalls' porch.
Nothing personal, Mr. Weigel, but I'm starting a petition right now
to have reason send Triumph the Insult Comic to
the next convention. If Triump can't make it, perhaps Yakov
Smirnoff? ("In former Soviet Union, people give rat's ass
about liberty!")
Jennifer|5.25.08 @ 2:34PM|#
Don't let the door hit you on the wat out. If I never read
or hear another word by or about Donderooo0ooooo, I'd be mightily
pleased.
Hush now, J sub D, such ignorance unbecomes you. Dondero is what
petroleum was back in the year 1800: icky-sticky yucky glop, yes,
but considered an annoying nuisance only because people
didn't yet realize what an awesome and wonderful untapped power
resource they had.
You know those Twilight Zone-type stories where a writer finds a
magic pen or magic typewriter, and everything he writes with it
comes true? Dondero's exactly like that, only in
reverse.
Eric--
I've been having some very crummy luck lately. Care to help a
libertarian sister out? Please go to various blogs and type
comments like "Jennifer's luck will never improve" or "Jennifer
will never vote for a candidate who actually wins" or "Jennifer's
favorite dark-green rhinestone barrette is lost forever so she may
as well stop looking for it and simply accept the fact that the
rest of her life is going to have a big
dark-green-rhinestone-barrette-shaped hole in it."
Also: "This week, Jennifer will not learn that some
long-lost relative she never knew she had just died and left her a
multi-billion-dollar fortune."
|5.25.08 @ 2:35PM|#
The tragedy of the commons is at work on the paper supply, apparently. Tell Jingozian.
|5.25.08 @ 2:37PM|#
Don't tell me every state is going to make a speech. And what alphabet are they using, where New Hampshire is first, and New York comes before New Jersey?
Kolohe|5.25.08 @ 2:37PM|#
Mr Chairman, you're making it awfully hard to not evaluate you're running a chickenshit operation.
Kolohe|5.25.08 @ 2:38PM|#
They randomized the starting state, but then are doing roll call in alphabetical order.
Guy Montag|5.25.08 @ 2:40PM|#
Indy is in another caution (some rookie in an orange car), but commercials are better than State speeches at a convention.
Kolohe|5.25.08 @ 2:41PM|#
How can North Dakota have no delegates? It's not like they're travelling further than most.
|5.25.08 @ 2:43PM|#
Yeah, whatever. Oregon doesn't let you pump your own gas, so bite me. This doesn't look good for Barr, BTW.
Guy Montag|5.25.08 @ 2:44PM|#
Anyone keeping count?
I think the guy sitting next to Groucho Marx. However, with all of
those Truthers there, it will not matter what the count is.
|5.25.08 @ 2:45PM|#
Colin,
Looks like Ruwart, Root, and Gravel (?!) have the most so far. Barr
has almost nothing.
Kolohe|5.25.08 @ 2:47PM|#
It seems so far Ruwart is leading, where there is a decisive state vote split, Ruwart has some 4 states, but Barr has 1 (SC)
|5.25.08 @ 2:47PM|#
I am changing my opinion about Utah. Is it perhaps the home to the most self-deprecating libertarians on Earth?
Kolohe|5.25.08 @ 2:52PM|#
Barr is like the Huckabee of this campaign, he's only winning the south (even though he failed in NC)
|5.25.08 @ 2:56PM|#
I wonder if the LP is making the same mistake the Dems made last year -- nominating someone they think other voters will find appealing (Root).
|5.25.08 @ 2:58PM|#
He's not going to get a majority on this ballot. But he is going to be way ahead of the other "pragmatic" candidate, Barr.
|5.25.08 @ 3:00PM|#
Illinois' motto is "National Union, State Sovereignty." The nickname is The Prairie State.
|5.25.08 @ 3:09PM|#
why am I getting the sinking feeling that Barr isn't going
to make it?
Maybe things will turn around on the second ballot.
|5.25.08 @ 3:15PM|#
Ruwart is the only radical in the top 4. That means there weren't a whole lot of votes likely to swing her way. Root's bloc, on the other hand, will almost all go to Barr. Which gives him ~45%.
Zorgon|5.25.08 @ 3:15PM|#
If all of Jingozians votes go to Gravel, he could be right up there with the others.
Taktix®|5.25.08 @ 3:16PM|#
I just realized Weigel was time stamping in MST. Doh!
Also, the long anticipated footage of my band's anti-drug War song,
Money
Game.
Just in time for the convention...
|5.25.08 @ 3:17PM|#
I've opnly got sound and no video since the stream on the C-Span website doesn't work properly for me. Anyone can post the number of votes in the first round? Ruwart was number one, right?
BakedPenguin|5.25.08 @ 3:19PM|#
If all of Jingozians votes go to Gravel, he could be right
up there with the others.
He's only down by two?
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 3:21PM|#
Oh my God! Did you all see that???
That was the nastiness moment at an LP Convention in history.
That will backfire on the Leftwing Anarchists. Big boost for Barr.
Thanks Christine!!
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 3:22PM|#
Yes, I agree, Mike Gravel is in a very good position right now,
and could actually win this thing.
I know it's wierd, but I like the guy's personality. Don't like
many of his views. But he's a blast.
|5.25.08 @ 3:22PM|#
From the first ballot:
Barr 153
Ruwart 152
Root 123
Gravel 71
Phillies 49
Kubby 41
Jingo 23
Smith 6
And Christine Smith is still going off at Microphone #3
|5.25.08 @ 3:23PM|#
I might choke a bitch if I have to hear another nom vote for
Ron Paul.
I know who that bitch should be...
|5.25.08 @ 3:23PM|#
Christine Smith, is ripping Barr on C-Span right now. My lord, what a whiny woman.
|5.25.08 @ 3:23PM|#
god, GET HER OFF CAMERA.
SHE's the kind of thing we don't want people seeing.
Though I don't think too many people are watching CSPAN other than
Libertarians anyway at the moment.
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 3:23PM|#
She's starting to look like a sore loser. Now she's almost in tears.
|5.25.08 @ 3:24PM|#
Smith shrewdly angling for a position in the Barr
administration.
Heh. This is highly entertaining. Good to see Jingozian claiming
that he and Gravel could win the general election!
|5.25.08 @ 3:24PM|#
Adamness - lol.
now we've got some harpy woman going on and on about how Barr is
the Debil.
How about Barr/Gravel? That'd be a trip.
Kolohe|5.25.08 @ 3:25PM|#
It's pretty frackin bad when *c-span* cuts away from you because you're just running on.
Zorgon|5.25.08 @ 3:25PM|#
Baked Penguin, gravel is in 4th, with 71 votes. With Jingozians support, he should be up around 100. I have no idea where the Christine Smith votes are going, though. They are pretty irrelevant.
|5.25.08 @ 3:25PM|#
Barr + Root is a greater total, by about thirty, than
Ruwart+Kubby+Phillies.
God, Gravel might actually be the king-maker.
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 3:25PM|#
No, no, keep her on camera. She's helping Bob Barr to win this
nomination.
This may go down in history as the most historic moment in LP
history. She may have just single-handidly handed the nomination to
Bob Barr with her tirade in front of a national C-SPAN
audience.
Thanks Christine! Thanks for helping to keep the Libertarian Party
Pro-Defense, and not turn it into a haven for Leftwing
Anarchists.
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 3:26PM|#
Andy, I'm not so sure Phillies supporters will swing to Ruwart.
Phillies has an independent streak, and he's personally on a
friendly basis with Wayne Root.
Anything could happen.
Colin|5.25.08 @ 3:26PM|#
Barr/Gravel would be a great ticket -- or at least, a greatly entertaining ticket.
|5.25.08 @ 3:27PM|#
which would be hilarious since there's not really anything any
one could give him that he wouldn't reject.
I predict him dragging this on like Hillary if it comes down to
Barr vs. Ruwart with his supporters holding the balance.
|5.25.08 @ 3:28PM|#
I know Phillies isn't technically a "radical", but I think him
and his supporters do lean that way.
Anyway, of course just adding totals from the 1st ballot like that
is useless as anything but a rough guess.
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 3:28PM|#
Andy, no I don't remember '83. I was a delegate to the '87
Convention, though. In '83 I was out on a ship in the Persian
Gulf.
But Andy, I bet this rivals '83 in excitement. Certainly better
than 2003.
|5.25.08 @ 3:28PM|#
we're going to have to see if Root hemorrhages supporters to Barr on this one. That might nail this one down pretty quick, if Root's people get faithless on him.
Colin|5.25.08 @ 3:29PM|#
I've been watching political conventions for decades, but none have been as fun as this one.
|5.25.08 @ 3:33PM|#
I wonder if the people who voted Ron Paul on the first ballot are going to continue doing so, or if they were just trying to get his name on the screen at the end.
|5.25.08 @ 3:35PM|#
'83 is where we had the moderates walk out. It's part of the
whole (sometimes overexaggerated) "split" between
Rothbardian/Austrian School purists and Friedman moderates like
CATO and reason. No matter what happens here, I'm not expecting a
walk-out of any size.
/Smith and her 6 delegates don't count
|5.25.08 @ 3:36PM|#
Colin,
No, there were only 2 NOTA votes on the first ballot. They said
there were 10 write-ins which weren't put up on the screen.
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 3:37PM|#
Colin, I fully agree. This is the best political convention of
any political party that I've ever seen. LP HQ staff and Redpath
deserve a great deal of credit. Bet that cinches Redpath for Chair
again.
Man, my heart is beating 100 taps per minute.
Go Bob Barr!!
Go Wayne Root!!
Dog\'s New Clothes|5.25.08 @ 3:38PM|#
Gravel gets support from a Phillies supporter after this ballot. That could definitely help him.
|5.25.08 @ 3:38PM|#
The man and husband from MA are saying they'll switch to Gravel after Phillies is eliminated.
Guy Montag|5.25.08 @ 3:38PM|#
OT: Patrick was in the top 10 when some rookie in the McDonald's
car wrecked out and caused a caution.
More OT: The Krystal's in Salem, VA has closed. Closest Krystal to
DC is now Bristol, TN, IIRC.
|5.25.08 @ 3:40PM|#
Shame about Kubby, though. I like him and think he'd make a great running mate for Barr.
|5.25.08 @ 3:41PM|#
Second ballot (provisional):
Barr 188
Ruwart 162
Root 138
Gravel 73
Phillies 36
Kubby 32 [OUT]
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 3:41PM|#
Gravel may end up being the Kingmaker.
Bet he's cut a deal with Barr for VP.
Dog\'s New Clothes|5.25.08 @ 3:42PM|#
Kubby is gone. I liked him, but he seems to have a decent chance
at VP.
Kubby could be a good pick for Barr as VP to shore up his Drug War
cred, but it depends on how Kubby tells his supporters to vote.
|5.25.08 @ 3:43PM|#
Change from first ballot:
Barr +35
Ruwart +10
Root +15
Gravel +2
Phillies -13
Kubby -9
Colin|5.25.08 @ 3:43PM|#
Gravel's a good guy. I hope he stays with libertarianism. Even if we don't agree with him on lots of things.
|5.25.08 @ 3:43PM|#
Bet he's cut a deal with Barr for VP.
I don't like that idea. I'm a Barr supporter, but I think he'd need
someone with a bit more history with the party and ideas than
Gravel.
Kolohe|5.25.08 @ 3:43PM|#
Memo to those who voted NOTA, esp on the first ballot:
Grow up.
V/R
Kolohe
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 3:43PM|#
I think the Barr/Root Mainstream Libertarians might have this thing won. Even if all the Leftwingers side with Ruwart - which they won't - Barr/Root is still ahead with 186.
|5.25.08 @ 3:43PM|#
Gravel has pretty explicitly- and angrily, as usual- said that
he won't accept VP slot.
When he first announced I thouht Barr/Gravel would be great. Having
seen how frighteningly unlibertarian Gravel is, particularly his
hard-on for majority rule and big-government social programs, I
don't think I'd be very happy with that now.
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 3:44PM|#
Holy Shit Chris! Thanks for those numbers. That says it all. Major pick-up for Bob Barr.
|5.25.08 @ 3:45PM|#
Note that Gravel only gained 2 delegates, despite Jingozian (23 first ballot delegates) endorsing him.
|5.25.08 @ 3:45PM|#
(Thanks for the word, whomever wrote this the other day (Brandybuck?))
Yes, that was me. I aquired it from an episode of Dead Like Me.
Kolohe|5.25.08 @ 3:48PM|#
Finally the chairman handles a situation with aplomb (the drop
phillies motion)
But then blows it with the WV thing
|5.25.08 @ 3:49PM|#
Phillies should have been the one asking for himself to be dropped after getting 6%. Given his, er, personality, I wouldn't expect it though.
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 3:50PM|#
Ouch! That hurt. If Barr can overcome the Kubby endorsement of Ruwart on the 3rd ballot he wins.
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 3:51PM|#
Rob Kampia's Marijuana dudes like Barr. So, they may not follow Kubby to Ruwart.
Aleanto|5.25.08 @ 3:51PM|#
I called it. Phillies, Kubby, and Gravel's supporters are all going to see the Barr lead and immediately jump to Ruwart. If I were Barr I'd offer Root the VP slot right now.
|5.25.08 @ 3:52PM|#
All of Kubby's votes this ballot are only about the same as the current gap between Barr and Ruwart- and that's before Root's support goes to Barr.
|5.25.08 @ 3:55PM|#
I went away from the tv for a bit after the Phillies thing What happened with West Virginia?
|5.25.08 @ 3:55PM|#
I'm somewhat baffled how you can support Barr as the LP nominee but fought tooth and nail against Paul in favor of Rudy "freedom is about authority" Giuliani.
|5.25.08 @ 3:56PM|#
They just wanted to see their results because they claimed they
hadn't been shown on screen for them to confirm.
No errors in them.
BakedPenguin|5.25.08 @ 3:57PM|#
JD - Redpath had someone put up the numbers, and the WV guy went away happy.
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 3:57PM|#
Andy Craig, I'm baffled as to how Anti-Defense Libertarians and Ron Paulists could support Bob Barr, since he's an "evil" Republican, and supports a Strong Defense and the Military. Please explain?
Dog\'s New Clothes|5.25.08 @ 3:58PM|#
Wow, this guy is dull. Couldn't they have found a better elected Libertarian?
|5.25.08 @ 3:59PM|#
He's more or less said the same thing Paul has as far as withdrawing American forces from the 130+ countries they're in, just with a (what I find acceptable and reasonable) caveat that in some places it'd be best to do it gradually rather than suddenly.
|5.25.08 @ 3:59PM|#
'83 is where we had the moderates walk out. It's part of the whole (sometimes overexaggerated) "split" between Rothbardian/Austrian School purists and Friedman moderates like CATO and reason.
The split wasn't between purists and moderates, because in the next
election you had the purist Rothbardians backing a mainstream Ron
Paul while the moderates were backing the anarchist Russell Means.
The split was instead between paleos and cosmos, even though those
terms had not yet been devised. One wing of the party supported a
white male monogamous Christian, while the other supported a native
American separatist who bragged how good he was in bed. Funny thing
though, except for advocating a government mandated gold standard,
the two had remarkably similar views.
|5.25.08 @ 3:59PM|#
Dondero,
Doesn't Barr want to withdraw from Iraq?
Of course, such a position doesn't contradict a belief in a
StrongDefense anyway.
Kolohe|5.25.08 @ 3:59PM|#
They should have got Penn Jillette or at least Drew Carey to do between ballot entertainment instead of colorado american flag tie dude.
|5.25.08 @ 4:00PM|#
If I happened to turn on CSPAN and saw this guy droning on and on, I don't think I'd ever want to have anything to do with the LP.
Colin|5.25.08 @ 4:02PM|#
This reminds me of Clinton's speech at the '88 Democratic
Convention.
That means this dude will be the '12 nominee.
Hayekian Dreamer|5.25.08 @ 4:02PM|#
Dondero - Define "Anti-defense" and "Strong Defense" considering
Barr's position (from his platform):
# Our National Defense policy must renew a commitment to
non-intervention. We are not the world's police force and our long,
yet recently tarnished, tradition of respecting the sovereignty of
other nations is necessary, not from only a moral standpoint, but
to regain the respect of the world as a principled and peaceful
nation.
# The proper use of force is clear. If attacked, the aggressor will
experience firsthand the skillful wrath of the American fighting
man. However, invading or initiating force against another nation
based upon perceived threats and speculative intelligence is simply
un-American. We are better than the policy of pre-emptive
warfare
That seems essentially identical to Paul's position. I think most
libertarians are for a "strong defense" of US soil, not of foreign
soil.
nj|5.25.08 @ 4:02PM|#
Barr sounded a lot like Paul in yesterday's debate ( making the point about withdrawing American forces around the world). He has denounced the Iraq war and the patriot act. It it is kind of odd to see Dondero get on his bandwagon.
|5.25.08 @ 4:02PM|#
his point shouldn't be lost, though. I get the idea that the LP doesn't "follow through" with its candidates...it gets them elected and then forgets about them.
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 4:02PM|#
Chris, doesn't just about every American including our President
want to "withdraw" from Iraq?
We're getting closer and closer to that day. The Iraqis are taking
on more and more responsibility. I think starting this summer seems
like a reasonable time table.
We've won not only the War, but the occupation, as well. Glorious
victories for the United States of America.
Make damn sure you thank a returning Vet if you see him/her in the
airport for a job well done.
Guy Montag|5.25.08 @ 4:03PM|#
Yea, bouncing off the wall in turn 4, spinning down pit road and taking out the pit-speed timer was interesting.
|5.25.08 @ 4:03PM|#
I've always wondered why the LP hasn't reached out to Drew, Penn
& Teller. The latter in particular have indicated their support
for the party.
They could maybe even get Stossel. He spoke at the Freedom Forum in
New Hampshire, put on by the FSP.
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 4:04PM|#
Bob Barr has been asked repeatedly to denounce his support for
our Troops, and to sign goofy conspitorialist pledges about 9/11.
He's declined each and every time.
Is he a hardcore "Pro-Defense" Libertarian? No.
He's a middle-of-the-roader, and that's just fine.
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 4:05PM|#
Hmmn? Hadn't heard Bob Barr blame America for the attacks of 9/11 like Ron Paul, have you??
Colin|5.25.08 @ 4:06PM|#
Ruwart's showing her colors by talking negative about Barr instead of talking positively about herself.
|5.25.08 @ 4:06PM|#
This lady on the TV is an idiot. "He said he wouldn't vote to
legalize crack!"...lady, Barr wouldn't be voting FOR a goddamn
thing. We don't need more laws; we need less.
I can't believe these people think that Barr needs to "vote for
legalization". Yikes.
Hayekian Dreamer |5.25.08 @ 4:06PM|#
Dondero - His position is identical to Paul (who has said he supports the troops as well and hasn't signed a conspiracy pledge either)
|5.25.08 @ 4:07PM|#
I didn't know that was Ruwart.
something is wrong with her...she thinks she stand better-poised to
tap into Ron Paul's support than Barr? What planet does she live
on?
Kolohe|5.25.08 @ 4:08PM|#
Dr Ruwart, the media coverage greyed/blacked out due to underwhelming electoral success. The moneybombs got a lot of cable news attention.
|5.25.08 @ 4:08PM|#
I'm baffled as to how Anti-Defense Libertarians and Ron Paulists could support Bob Barr, since he's an "evil" Republican, and supports a Strong Defense and the Military. Please explain?
Easy to explain. Unlike you, we aren't single issue voters. Ron
Paul stood for much much more than just getting out of Iraq. Ron
Paul wants a strong military, he just doesn't want it to be a tool
of foreign interventionism. The nation state of Iraq was never a
threat to us.
Bob Barr has admitted his error in supporting the PATRIOT act. Not
only does he advocate getting out of Iraq, he admits it was a
mistake getting in.
Oh, and Ron Paul is an "evil" Republican too.
|5.25.08 @ 4:09PM|#
Mary Ruwart is saying the Ron Paul people would be scared away by "LP nominates Patriot Act supporter" headlines. Like there would even be headlines about this...
|5.25.08 @ 4:09PM|#
if it comes down a Barr/Ruwart/Root ballot, if by some chance
Barr and Root haven't struck a deal before, Ruwart needs to drop
out and have all the radicals vote NOTA. that would leave only Barr
and Root on the final ballot. by the rules I take it that the
second place gets booted and first place deprived of victory,
lacking a majority. of course I don't have a freakin clue what
happens after that.
of course I don't even Know if a candidate voluntarily can get off
the ballot. just brainstorming.
but hey the momentum for a Barr/Gravel ticket could be building, as
some others have sensed. (see my comment from a couple hours ago in
the previous thread.)
Kolohe|5.25.08 @ 4:10PM|#
I agree with John David above. I don't want it drawn out as much as the first ballot; but a little drama would be nice - like going through all the states, then putting up the totals.
|5.25.08 @ 4:11PM|#
Fuck, the C-Span strem breaks right when they announce the new results. Who won?
|5.25.08 @ 4:11PM|#
Maybe it would be better to have Ruwart on top with Barr as the VP? I'd support that.
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 4:11PM|#
I just ran the numbers:
Barr/Root still wins over the other three, even considering Gravel
and Phillies endorse Ruwart.
323
295
|5.25.08 @ 4:12PM|#
So does Barr make a deal with Root, or does he just wait for his follower to come to him?
|5.25.08 @ 4:12PM|#
Barr and Ruwart are tied with 186, and Root has 146 I think. Gravel is 4th with 78 and Phillies is last with 31.
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 4:13PM|#
Let's keep in mind George Phillies and Tom Knapp are not the
best of friends. Lots of bad blood there.
Phillies could got for Root?
Ruwart just got her most solid base of other supporters from Kubby
(Knapp is Kubby's top guy).
|5.25.08 @ 4:13PM|#
Maybe it would be better to have Ruwart on top with Barr as
the VP? I'd support that.
if Mary Ruwart pulled her head out of her ass and stopped being
ignorantly bullheaded, she could be the VP candidate.
|5.25.08 @ 4:13PM|#
I can barely read the screen, but it looks like Barr and Ruwart in the 180s (I can't read the third digit), Root 145, Gravel 70, Phillies 31.
nj|5.25.08 @ 4:14PM|#
Paul didn't blame "America" for 9/11. He made the point that actions have consquences. He was pointing the finger at the policy makers.
|5.25.08 @ 4:14PM|#
"if Mary Ruwart pulled her head out of her ass and stopped being
ignorantly bullheaded, she could be the VP candidate"
Agree. I'd much prefer Ruwart for VP over Root or Gravel. And
having a radical running mate would do more than anything else to
stop everyone's fears of Barr's yanking the party to the right.
|5.25.08 @ 4:14PM|#
if Mary Ruwart pulled her head out of her ass and stopped
being ignorantly bullheaded, she could be the VP
candidate.
No! That would confuse the voters! Oh noes!
|5.25.08 @ 4:16PM|#
Wow, good thing we didn't save time and knock Phillies off the ballot before the 3rd round.
Kolohe|5.25.08 @ 4:16PM|#
Here's a catchphrase which has gone the way of the
Macerena:
"Mr Phillies, you are the weakest link. Good-bye."
|5.25.08 @ 4:17PM|#
Wow, good thing we didn't save time and knock Phillies off
the ballot before the 3rd round.
ha, no kidding. now he seems to be dancing around, trying not to
bash Barr.
|5.25.08 @ 4:19PM|#
Going off of Kolohe's numbers,
Barr -2
Ruwart +40
Gravel +5
Root +8
Phillies -5
Kubby -32 (of course)
|5.25.08 @ 4:19PM|#
I think George Phillies should be the Press Secretary in the Barr Administration. He reminded me of a crazy Eugene Levy.
|5.25.08 @ 4:19PM|#
Can someone explain the difference between neo-pagan and
paleo-pagan?
Colin wins the thread.
BakedPenguin|5.25.08 @ 4:19PM|#
Nice speech. Is it wrong that I like Phillies better as a loser than as a candidate?
Dog\'s New Clothes|5.25.08 @ 4:20PM|#
The LaRouchies are gonna be pissed/
And I guess the Lester Maddox and George Wallace voters won't be
voting for Phillies
|5.25.08 @ 4:20PM|#
Weigel is too narrowly focused and his views seem to color
his article so that readers here are being a disservice.
I am *not* a disservice!
harrrummpphhh!
Dixie Reb|5.25.08 @ 4:20PM|#
Fuck Phillies, dissin' Lester Maddox
Georgia will extract it's revenge with a Bob barr nomination.
Aleanto|5.25.08 @ 4:20PM|#
Personally I think Phillies is actually a Bob Odenkirk
character.
Root and Barr need to cut some sort of deal before Ruwart takes all
the momentum.
|5.25.08 @ 4:21PM|#
"Is it wrong that I like Phillies better as a loser than as a
candidate?"
I bet a lot of people are thinking that right now.
What he did was very admirable. The people in that hall needed to
hear that.
|5.25.08 @ 4:21PM|#
The two radicals who lost votes only had 37 votes to begin with, so Ruwart must have gotten votes from Barr/Root. That's strange.
Guy Montag|5.25.08 @ 4:21PM|#
Wow, Phillies is anti-marriage just like me? I regret to have not supported him.
|5.25.08 @ 4:21PM|#
Can someone explain the difference between neo-pagan and
paleo-pagan?
You forgot about cosmopagans.
BakedPenguin|5.25.08 @ 4:21PM|#
dbcooper - A lot of assholes like to claim that LaRouche was a Libertarian, although he only ran as a Democrat and under his own "American Labor Party".
|5.25.08 @ 4:22PM|#
Root and Barr need to cut some sort of deal before Ruwart
takes all the momentum.
Agreed.
Anybody have any idea why this hasn't happened yet?
Kolohe|5.25.08 @ 4:22PM|#
crymethink-
I think my Gravel # is wrong, Weigel and Randian say 78, so it
should be +8 for gravel.
|5.25.08 @ 4:23PM|#
Well, it looks like this will be Mike Gravel's last stand. I can't say I have agreed with him on a lot of issues, but I have respected his integrity and blunt anger. He's more a populist (think William Jennings Bryan without the evangelical side) than a libertarian but he fought the good fight. I hope he does not pull an Alan Keyes and storm off somewhere else to continue his battle.
|5.25.08 @ 4:23PM|#
"Anybody have any idea why this hasn't happened yet?"
Root is an egotistical asshole?
/Rand dig
//you know what I mean
///an irrational egotistical asshole
Colin|5.25.08 @ 4:25PM|#
Yeah, it seems if Barr and Root made a deal, this thing would be just about over.
|5.25.08 @ 4:25PM|#
Corrected third ballot changes, from Weigel's numbers:
Barr -2
Ruwart +24
Gravel +8
Root +8
Phillies -5
Kubby -32 (of course)
|5.25.08 @ 4:26PM|#
@Baked Penguin:
Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't know that falsehood was still
circulating.
|5.25.08 @ 4:27PM|#
Yeah, it seems if Barr and Root made a deal, this thing
would be just about over.
I'd rather Ruwart and Barr make a deal. That could keep the big
tent idea of the LP and bring in a lot of people. A Barr/Root would
make a lot of people unhappy.
|5.25.08 @ 4:27PM|#
Gravel has the party insiders totally baffled. They can't figure out where his supporters are going to go.
Zorgon|5.25.08 @ 4:28PM|#
LMAO
Barr: Would you like to ask that with the reporter here?
He's been the most camera-shy so far.
I really, really hope Gravel can pull this off. If not, he should
go Green!!!!
|5.25.08 @ 4:28PM|#
I'd rather Ruwart and Barr make a deal. That could keep the
big tent idea of the LP and bring in a lot of people. A Barr/Root
would make a lot of people unhappy.
I'd rather see this too, but Mary Ruwart is making it impossible.
I'd rather have Barr than Ruwart (obviously), and if we have to run
Barr/Root to do it, then we should do it. a Ruwart candidacy is the
same old, same old...except she's going to get the LP smeared with
the "child porn" thing even worse than we get already.
|5.25.08 @ 4:28PM|#
"Gravel has the party insiders totally baffled. They can't
figure out where his supporters are going to go."
Doesn't surprise me. He's personally made clear his distaste for
both the right-libertarians and the radicals- which are the only
two options. If I had to bet, I'd say they split but with most
going to Ruwart. Rest to Barr- almost none to Root.
BakedPenguin|5.25.08 @ 4:29PM|#
I'd rather Ruwart and Barr make a deal.
I agree with you, but it doesn't seem likely after hearing her "he
wouldn't stop the War on Drugs" statement.
|5.25.08 @ 4:29PM|#
Quick, dumb question: Balloting just goes on until someone gets a majority of delegates? Is it as simple as that?
Franklin Harris|5.25.08 @ 4:30PM|#
Well, it looks like this will be Mike Gravel's last stand.
I'll miss him when he's gone. A Barr/Gravel ticket would be fun to
see.
|5.25.08 @ 4:30PM|#
"I can't wait to hear Gravel concession speech"
50/50 he plays the angry asshole.
|5.25.08 @ 4:31PM|#
That whole little chat with Ruwart convinced me how ignorant she
really is. President Barr could not, nor should he not, have the
power to stop an individual state from ending the war on Drugs.
That's up to that state.
Ruwart isn't running for President; she's running for wannabe
Libertarian Dictator.
Aleanto|5.25.08 @ 4:31PM|#
Barr and Ruwart aren't going to cut a deal. Too much bad blood. It'll be the Barr/Root supporters versus Ruwart picking up the rest of the field, with Gravel as the likely kingmaker.
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 4:31PM|#
Oh my God. Gravel and Root are huddling before the cameras. Can anyone hear what they're saying. Root looks super nervous.
|5.25.08 @ 4:31PM|#
Quick, dumb question: Balloting just goes on until someone
gets a majority of delegates? Is it as simple as that?
Except that the eliminate anyone pulling less than 5% each
time.
Zorgon|5.25.08 @ 4:32PM|#
Gravel is telling Root, "There's no question I'm the better candidate!!!!"
|5.25.08 @ 4:32PM|#
I agree about that. I think part of the historical problem has
been that the Presidential nominee has presented the entire LP
platform rather than specifically how that platform applies to the
Presidency.
Still, it wouldn't be bad for Barr to say he thinks states should
legalize, too.
|5.25.08 @ 4:33PM|#
Ruwart isn't running for President; she's running for
wannabe Libertarian Dictator.
She's running for fucking spokesmodel, with all the talk of Barr
"tarnishing the brand".
|5.25.08 @ 4:35PM|#
so Barr and Ruwart split Phillies people?
Barr - 202
Gravel - 76
Ruwart - 202
Root - 149
BakedPenguin|5.25.08 @ 4:35PM|#
Randian - the DEA is a federal agency. Did she say anything that makes you think she wasn't referring to it?
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 4:36PM|#
351 to 278 for Barr/Root vs. Ruwart/Gravel.
If everything holds the Libertarian Right should defeat the
Libertarian Left.
But my guess, some Gravel votes will go to Root. Which is good news
for Bob Barr.
|5.25.08 @ 4:36PM|#
Change from last ballot
Barr +16
Ruwart +16
Root +3
Gravel -2
Phillies -31
NOTA +0
|5.25.08 @ 4:37PM|#
"Randian - the DEA is a federal agency. Did she say anything
that makes you think she wasn't referring to it?"
Barr has said he'd end the Federal drug laws, including on "hard"
drugs.
|5.25.08 @ 4:37PM|#
Randian - the DEA is a federal agency. Did she say anything
that makes you think she wasn't referring to it?
I was referring to the fact that she said Barr won't "vote to end
the War on Drugs". What does voting have to do with the
Presidency?
I'm really hoping that Gravel's people don't break too hard for
Ruwart.
Colin|5.25.08 @ 4:38PM|#
I would think that Ruwart would get the majority of Gravel's
delegates. But I don't think that'll be enough.
When Root's tossed, you got think that'll throw it to Barr.
|5.25.08 @ 4:38PM|#
As far as I am concerned, it's more important to understand what a President does if you're running for that office, rather than think of yourself (as Ruwart does) as the "face" of Libertarianism.
Franklin Harris|5.25.08 @ 4:39PM|#
Am I the only one who thinks some of the Gravel votes will go to
Barr because they do both have that "I've actually served in
Congress" thing going for them?
Of course, not being on the ground in Denver makes that pure
speculation.
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 4:39PM|#
This has got to be better than NYC 1983. I don't care what
anyone says. This is high drama. Tied!
This reflects the libertarian movement split right down the middle
between the Libertarian Right and the Libertarian Left.
Whoever wins may determine the future of the libertarian movement
for years to come.
|5.25.08 @ 4:40PM|#
When Root's tossed, you got think that'll throw it to
Barr.
That's a hell of a risk, though! Barr needs to do something to lock
this shit down before Root's people go all "free radical" and latch
on to the anti-Barr sentiment.
|5.25.08 @ 4:40PM|#
Ugh. As pleased as I am about Barr, the idea of Root for VP is making me sick to my stomach.
|5.25.08 @ 4:40PM|#
If that happens, I might just get a "Barr/None '08" bumper
sticker.
/ba-dum-ptsch
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 4:40PM|#
Franklin, I agree. Some of those Gravel votes will go to Barr. US Senator thing being a big deal.
lupus|5.25.08 @ 4:40PM|#
Does anyone understand how disastrous a Ruwart nomination would be for the LP? We are already bordering on irrelevancy ... this would sink us forever. The media will latch on to all the kiddie porn commentary and make it look as if we are the NAMBLA party ... our brand will be permanently tarnished and we will never be able to recover. Looks as if the Truthers and perverts have taken over ...
Colin|5.25.08 @ 4:42PM|#
How much control does the LP presidential nominee have over the VP nominee? Don't they vote on it?
|5.25.08 @ 4:42PM|#
I hate Mary Ruwart the more I hear her talk. She's a non-stop negative train and is annoying to hear.
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 4:42PM|#
lupus, disastrous for the LP, but not for the overall
libertarian movement.
You've still got the Republican Liberty Caucus and libertarians in
the GOP. Expect an immediate move to the GOP if Ruwart
prevails.
Colin|5.25.08 @ 4:43PM|#
Ruwart again is going negative on Barr. I haven't heard Barr say anything bad about her, or anyone else.
|5.25.08 @ 4:43PM|#
Ruwart is telling some old people "I would never go on national TV and criticize a fellow Libertarian like Bob Barr did"
|5.25.08 @ 4:43PM|#
Whoever wins may determine the future of the libertarian movement for years to come.
Nonsense. Until a whole block walks, it's still an even split. The
"left" hasn't left the party, there is no other party for them to
go to. One side may shut up for two years, but they won't split the
party.
|5.25.08 @ 4:43PM|#
holy fuck Mary Ruwart is sounding like a Truther "I'd talk about 9-11, but we're on national television and I know how fucking crazy that sounds".
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 4:44PM|#
It's going to look bad for Barr on this ballot. But then he'll
come back and win with Root's people on the final ballot putting
him back over the top.
If Barr is ahead this ballot somehow, it's all over, and he's the
winner.
|5.25.08 @ 4:44PM|#
"Ruwart is telling some old people "I would never go on national
TV and criticize a fellow Libertarian like Bob Barr did""
On national TV.
|5.25.08 @ 4:45PM|#
are there any Ruwart supporters lurking around here? I'm sorry to tell you this, but your candidate is a negative, crazy bitch.
|5.25.08 @ 4:46PM|#
I haven't heard Barr say anything bad about her, or anyone
else.
A few weeks ago he went on one of the news shows and talked about
Ruwart's statements on legalizing kiddie porn.
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 4:46PM|#
It's over!!!
Gravel just told the C-SPAN cameras he voted for "Wayne Allyn
Root."
That means Ruwart's screwed.
rbm|5.25.08 @ 4:46PM|#
Dondero: I ask because I really don't know much about libertarian politics: Why do you mention Republican Liberty Caucus and not Democratic Freedom Caucus?
Kolohe|5.25.08 @ 4:47PM|#
Gravel reminds me of Huckabee in that I don't agree with any of his stances, but damn, he makes it hard not to like him personally.
|5.25.08 @ 4:47PM|#
"I'd talk about 9-11, but we're on national television and I know how fucking crazy that sounds".
That just clinched the nomination for Barr!
Franklin Harris|5.25.08 @ 4:47PM|#
Libertarians in the GOP only works if we show we can make them pay for ignoring us. That's why Barr being the LP candidate is important. If Barr costs or is seen as costing McCain the presidency, the GOP might, just might pay more attention to its moderate-libertarian wing.
Matt Welch|5.25.08 @ 4:47PM|#
Did Gravel just endorse Root?
No. He refused to tell his own voters who to vote for. His vote
seemed to be personal.
|5.25.08 @ 4:48PM|#
Gravel: "Libertarians aren't used to the idea they can
win".
how does a party outsider capture the zeitgeist of the LP so
quickly?
|5.25.08 @ 4:48PM|#
Gravel needs to go to the podium and announce that
now!!
He just said he's letting his delegates make up their own
minds.
Colin|5.25.08 @ 4:50PM|#
"Well, kiddie porn recording is not aggression."
Unless you are the kiddie.
Hayekian Dreamer|5.25.08 @ 4:50PM|#
Wait... did I just hear right? Did Gravel say he'd vote for Barr over Ruwart? I'm surprised, pleasantly surprised, but still.
|5.25.08 @ 4:50PM|#
Gravel is voting for Root, but won't endorse anyone. Gravel would vote Barr over Root in a 2way runoff though.
Zorgon|5.25.08 @ 4:52PM|#
719-442-1778
Your cell phone just got on National Television. Lets all call
him/her now!!!!
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 4:53PM|#
Gravel's comments may have just clinched it for Bob Barr.
Looking very, very good for Libertarian Right coalition.
|5.25.08 @ 4:53PM|#
Weigel, check for your camera!
I'm waiting for the inevitable "Someone left their lights on in the
parking lot" announcement...
Free2Smooze|5.25.08 @ 4:54PM|#
The North Dakota thing has me a little perplexed. I worked on
the Paul campaign and we were well organized there, that an active
staff and volunteer base and did well in that contest.
Kinda calls into question the whole notion that an LP candidate can
ride Ron Paul's mojo.
BakedPenguin|5.25.08 @ 4:54PM|#
Seriously, does anyone know the deal with North
Dakota?
I heard they voted to move up the convention date...
Hayekian Dreamer|5.25.08 @ 4:55PM|#
That's a disappointing note about Ed Thompson supporting Ruwart, I like Thompson a lot.
|5.25.08 @ 4:58PM|#
It's all but over. Ruwart's not getting enough delegates from
Root to win this.
Ruwart 229 +27
Barr 223 +21
Root 165 +16
NOTA 6 +4
Gravel 0 -76
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 4:59PM|#
Libertarian Right
combined Barr/Root 378
Libertarian Left
Mary Ruwart 229
Game over.
|5.25.08 @ 5:00PM|#
I hope they don't do this asinine spreadsheet thing after announcing Barr's won but before anything else can happen.
Aleanto|5.25.08 @ 5:00PM|#
I haven't been happier to be wrong in quite some time. Barr will peel off tons of votes from McCain and possibly be the most successful LP candidate since 1980.
|5.25.08 @ 5:00PM|#
Dondero: I ask because I really don't know much about
libertarian politics: Why do you mention Republican Liberty Caucus
and not Democratic Freedom Caucus?
He gives a pass to the theocratic war-mongers who endanger
"liberty".
A couple of % points on the top rate is "socialism" to him.
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 5:00PM|#
Do you all realize that a healthy portion of Gravel's vote went
to Barr.
Franklin Harris was right.
|5.25.08 @ 5:01PM|#
Just lost all respect for Mike Gravel. His only redeeming
quality was his anti-imperialsm, and he supports warmongers Root
and Barr over Ruwart??
And AynRandian, I'm sorry to tell you this, but you're an asshole.
Go back to jerking off all over your copy of Atlas Shrugged.
|5.25.08 @ 5:01PM|#
why the hell didn't Ruwart swing her votes to NOTA? that was the radicals only chance. unless Root's support is feigned...
|5.25.08 @ 5:01PM|#
Root is seriously screwing up his chances for VP.
Does he have Barr's endorsement to do this?
Raider Duck|5.25.08 @ 5:02PM|#
I would be THRILLED with a Barr/Root ticket. We'd lose a few thousand of the Tom Knapp/L. Neil Smith crowd (maybe), but get a few MILLION Paul supporters. No-brainer.
Kolohe|5.25.08 @ 5:03PM|#
Well, that's that.
Still, I don't think it's a coincidence that 'Duce' and 'douche'
are awfully close. Root reminds me of that
|5.25.08 @ 5:03PM|#
And AynRandian, I'm sorry to tell you this, but you're an
asshole. Go back to jerking off all over your copy of Atlas
Shrugged.
Take a walk, buddy. your team showed how crazy they all are.
and how is Root a warmonger?
|5.25.08 @ 5:03PM|#
"Bang"...."It's not over"...."Barr/Root ticket"
"Root Team Barr Team...BANG"
Please dont do it
|5.25.08 @ 5:03PM|#
Go back to jerking off all over your copy of Atlas
Shrugged.
Didn't your heroine say Ayn Rand was one of her favorite
philosophers last night?
Also, shut the fuck up Root!
Hayekian Dreamer|5.25.08 @ 5:03PM|#
Headline: Root concedes by assuming Barr will get defeated in November. (don't get me wrong, it's a good assumption, but still)
|5.25.08 @ 5:03PM|#
I'm hoping CSPAN camera grabs Barr and gets the facts on whether or not he wants Root.
|5.25.08 @ 5:04PM|#
But what will Root do if Barr seeks a second
term?
Count it...that's the thread winner! I don't usually write this,
but I LOL'd
|5.25.08 @ 5:04PM|#
Does he have Barr's endorsement to do this?
He doesn't need it. The Libertarians nominate their VP candidate,
the presidential candidate doesn't select him.
|5.25.08 @ 5:05PM|#
OK, just for kicks: is there any chance some of the Barr votes -- who may have hoped for a Barr/Ruwart or Barr/Kubby "unity ticket" -- peel off to Ruwart (or NOTA) if they think he's going to choose Root as VP?
Kolohe|5.25.08 @ 5:05PM|#
I'm hoping CSPAN camera grabs Barr and gets the facts on
whether or not he wants Root
The photo op now seems to confirm it.
John Rhoads|5.25.08 @ 5:06PM|#
Barr doesn't pick a running mate...the delegates vote for the vice presidential candidate as well.
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 5:07PM|#
Besides the day I married my wife, this is truly the very
happiest moment of my entire life.
The Dream Ticket for Libertarian Right Bob Barr/Wayne Root.
This is a happy day for liberty!!!
Aleanto|5.25.08 @ 5:07PM|#
I'm not that crazy about Root but having him as the running mate is definitely a preferable outcome to having Ruwart as the nominee.
|5.25.08 @ 5:07PM|#
Root just said he and Barr are "mainstream libertarians". Any way I can change my vote?
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 5:08PM|#
They look great together. They look like a real team. My God
this is great.
This is great, great, great, great, great.
Thank you Libertarian Party, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank
you!!!
|5.25.08 @ 5:08PM|#
I prefer to jack off over We the Living, story over platform
always goes down better.
Root, this is why I don't watch sports. I thought Ruwart sounded
great in the debate last night, despite verbal pauses. She looked
great too. I'll just ignore the truthers that rally around her,
damn assholes.
Eric Dondero|5.25.08 @ 5:09PM|#
If you're a Mainstream Libertarian go to:
www.mainstreamlibertarian.com
MAINSTREAM LIBERTARIANISM JUST BEAT THE RADICAL LEFTISTS.
THIS IS THE GREATEST DAY IN THE HISTORY OF THE ENTIRE MODERN
LIBERTARIAN MOVEMENT!!!!!!
Franklin Harris|5.25.08 @ 5:09PM|#
Root just said he and Barr are "mainstream libertarians". Any way I can change my vote?
For the win.
rbm|5.25.08 @ 5:09PM|#
Root and Barr both just admitted they'd be Republican today had the party not "left them." Uhm.... isn't LP supposed to be more than a club for disaffected Republicans?
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