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But Your Honor, I Swear I Thought She Was 15!
I came across this tidbit while reading about today's appeals court ruling condemning the wholesale seizure of children from the Yearning for Zion Ranch. Or perhaps I should say "children" (emphasis added):
At least half the mothers taken from a polygamist sect's ranch and put in child foster care have now been declared adults, significantly chipping at agency statistics that seemed to demonstrate the widespread sexual abuse of underage girls.
Attorneys for the state's Child Protective Services agency have been conceding, one by one, that many of the mothers authorities cited as evidence that the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints committed widespread sexual abuse of girls are actually adults.
They had admitted by midday Thursday that 15 of the 31 mothers listed as underage are adults; one is actually 27. A few are as young as 18, but many are at least 20.
Another girl listed as an underage mother is 14, but her attorney said in court she is not pregnant and does not have a child.
Then, too, as the appeals court noted, "teenage pregnancy, by itself, is not a reason to remove children from their home and parents." Teenagers in Texas can marry at 16 with parental consent, and "there was no evidence regarding the marital status of these girls when they became pregnant or the circumstances under which they became pregnant."
It's also important to keep in mind that the 16 (or fewer) underage mothers represent a small percentage of the children seized by the state, who included infants and toddlers as well as boys of various ages. As the court found, there was no evidence whatsoever to indicate these kids—at least 97 percent of those seized—were being abused or in imminent danger.
drawnasunder|5.22.08 @ 5:43PM|#
Don't let details get in the way of good law enforcement.
Taser them all for good measure.
Plant Immigration RIghts Suppo|5.22.08 @ 5:45PM|#
I am no fan of George W. Bush but under Clinton these kids would probably have all been killed in a fire caused by the FBI "Hostage Rescue Team."
|5.22.08 @ 5:56PM|#
So only 3% of the children are being sexually abused or are in danger of being abused, no problem then!
|5.22.08 @ 5:58PM|#
Ah, another ignorant wingnut.
Koresh, the child molester, torched the children, who were his
hostages. Koresh and his adult followers lit the fires. No amount
of wishful thinking will change that simple fact.
You're probably a big fan of Koresh.
|5.22.08 @ 6:00PM|#
I sure if you rond up any small town your bound to find something.Even Mayberry.
|5.22.08 @ 6:17PM|#
I am no fan of George W. Bush but under Clinton these kids
would probably have all been killed in a fire caused by the FBI
"Hostage Rescue Team."
I know that facts often get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.
Still, I like them.
From the Danforth
Report (PDF)
The government of the United States and its agents are not responsible for the
April 19, 1993, tragedy at Waco. The government:
(a) did not cause the fire;
(b) did not direct gunfire at the Branch Davidian complex; and
(c) did not improperly employ the armed forces of the United States.
Responsibility for the tragedy of Waco rests with certain of the Branch Davidians and
their leader, Vernon Howell, also known as David Koresh, who:
(a) shot and killed four ATF agents on February 28, 1993, and wounded 20 others;
(b) refused to exit the complex peacefully during the 51-day standoff that followed
the ATF raid despite extensive efforts and concessions by negotiators for the
Federal Bureau of Investigation ("FBI");
(c) directed gunfire at FBI agents who were inserting tear gas into the complex on
April 19, 1993;
(d) spread fuel throughout the main structure of the complex and ignited it in at least
three places causing the fire which resulted in the deaths of those Branch
Davidians not killed by their own gunfire; and
(e) killed some of their own people by gunfire, including at least five children.
I'm not defending the BATF's and FBI's actions in dealing with the
Whacko from Waco, but claiming or insinuating that the inferno was
caused by anyone other than the Branch Davidians is either
dishonest or unbalanced.
*puts lecturn back in closet*
Plant Immigration RIghts Suppo|5.22.08 @ 6:18PM|#
"Ah, another ignorant wingnut."
Glad to see we have started this dialogue in a respectful
manner.
"You're probably a big fan of Koresh."
No, I am an atheist. But one does not have to be Jewish to oppose
the holocaust.
"Koresh, the child molester, torched the children, who were his
hostages. Koresh and his adult followers lit the fires. No amount
of wishful thinking will change that simple fact."
No, the FBI used incendiary devices
http://www.greatdreams.com/waconews.htm
Plant Immigration Rights Suppo|5.22.08 @ 6:20PM|#
I just noticed that some of the links in the URL I gave you are
no longer good. Try this for more info:
http://www.serendipity.li/waco.html
Logfile|5.22.08 @ 6:21PM|#
So only 3% of the children are being sexually abused or are
in danger of being abused, no problem then!
I would be curious to know what percentage of children in Texas's
general population are being sexually abused or are in danger of
being abused.
|5.22.08 @ 6:23PM|#
Well, at least some things have improved. They didn't gas them
and torch the building this time.
-jcr
Dello|5.22.08 @ 6:23PM|#
So here's the plan: We all join a fringe cult and bribe the
Governer to come in and "save" our adult children, then when they
lose badly in court, we sue for pain and suffering and whatnot,
then buy ourselves a new compound and employ the (soon to be
former) Governer and give him a few young wives for his
trouble.
Well, that's how I'd do it.
|5.22.08 @ 6:24PM|#
You're probably a big fan of Koresh.
You don't have to be a fan of Koresh to see that Waco was a major
cluster-fuck.
-jcr
Logfile|5.22.08 @ 6:26PM|#
That's not to say I like the way they do things at that place, but if the probability of a child living on that ranch being abused is similar to that of a child living in the general population then what's the point of forcibly removing all those children?
Plant Immigration RIghts Suppo|5.22.08 @ 6:27PM|#
(a) shot and killed four ATF agents on February 28, 1993, and
wounded 20 others;
Good. These thugs were violating their constitutional rights.
(b) refused to exit the complex peacefully during the 51-day
standoff that followed
the ATF raid despite extensive efforts and concessions by
negotiators for the
Federal Bureau of Investigation ("FBI");
Why should they have to exit their own home?
(c) directed gunfire at FBI agents who were inserting tear gas into
the complex on
April 19, 1993;
I would also direct gunfire at people using chemical weapons on
me.
(d) spread fuel throughout the main structure of the complex and
ignited it in at least
three places causing the fire which resulted in the deaths of those
Branch
Davidians not killed by their own gunfire; and
This is where the report is wrong.
(e) killed some of their own people by gunfire, including at least
five children.
There is no evidence that the gunfire was by fellow Davidians.
ktc2|5.22.08 @ 6:30PM|#
And the fact that page one of the FBI report mentioning the
"incindiary devices" conveniently didn't show up for years after
the fact is really in the FBIs favor?
---
Seriously, it's looking like the State of Texas is going to be
making these whacko mormon fundie nutjobs very, very wealthy in the
end.
Plant Immigration Rights Suppo|5.22.08 @ 6:42PM|#
The FBI acknowledged firing potentially flammable devices.
http://www.cnn.com/US/9908/24/fbi.waco/
|5.22.08 @ 6:42PM|#
So only 3% of the children are being sexually abused or are
in danger of being abused, no problem then!
There is no evidence they ever suffered abuse. The Child Abduction
Organization (aka Child "Protection" Services) hastily declared
many women to be "minors", to make their case.
I know that facts often get in the way of a good conspiracy
theory. Still, I like them.
From the Danforth Report (PDF)
Let's see.... The State attacks a free people, kills people; the
State calls for a State's Investigation of the State's actions by a
State commission appointed by the State's Attorney General, and
find the State's not at fault, covering everyone's asses within the
State. Should I be surprised?
Sovereign Immunity|5.22.08 @ 6:42PM|#
Seriously, it's looking like the State of Texas is going to be
making these whacko mormon fundie nutjobs very, very wealthy in the
end.
They won't get a dime.
|5.22.08 @ 6:43PM|#
PIRS,
The federal government fucked up at Waco. Big time. Hopefully they
learned from it, but given the prevalence of paramiltary police
operations in this country, I doubt that's the case.
David Koresh and his followers did a Jonestown. You don't get to
wrap it up with a bow on it. You had a charismatic lunatic cult
leader, and an arrogant, poorly led law enforcement establishment.
Those two facts are not mutually exclusive. You are never going to
change people's mind by spouting debunked conspiracy theories.
|5.22.08 @ 6:45PM|#
Well, at least some things have improved. They didn't gas
them and torch the building this time.
Not yet . . .
Plant Immigration Rights Suppo|5.22.08 @ 6:46PM|#
"They won't get a dime."
Maybe not from the government but from that woman who made the
false charge to begin with if she has any money. She does deserve
to be punished somehow.
|5.22.08 @ 6:49PM|#
Let's see.... The State attacks a free people, kills people;
the State calls for a State's Investigation of the State's actions
by a State commission appointed by the State's Attorney General,
and find the State's not at fault, covering everyone's asses within
the State. Should I be surprised?
The GOP would have creamed in its collective jeans if what is
alleged were true. It isn't.
Aren't you late for a truther meeting or something? I'll waste no
more time bandying words with delusional paranoia sufferers
tonight.
Plant Immigration RIghts Suppo|5.22.08 @ 6:49PM|#
"David Koresh and his followers did a Jonestown."
No, they did not kill temselves. The FBI did that part for
them.
"You had a charismatic lunatic cult leader, and an arrogant, poorly
led law enforcement establishment. Those two facts are not mutually
exclusive."
On that we agree.
"You are never going to change people's mind by spouting debunked
conspiracy theories."
I am afraid it is the FBI's story that has been debunked.
PLant IMmigration RIghts Suppo|5.22.08 @ 6:52PM|#
"The GOP would have creamed in its collective jeans if what is
alleged were true. It isn't."
Not really, I used to think so back when I thought of myself as
"conservative" but the GOP cares more about "Law and Order" than it
does liberty. It will take "Law & Order" even from a POUS with
the last name Clinton.
SIV|5.22.08 @ 6:54PM|#
PIRS,
False accusers of child abuse are anonymous and immune by
law.According to my CPS investigator friend anyway. She says it is
a Federal law.
Sovereign Immunity|5.22.08 @ 6:55PM|#
They won't get a dime.
Two words: Jury Trial.
If sovereign immunity is invoked there won't be a trial.
|5.22.08 @ 6:57PM|#
Plant Immigration Rights Supporter
Maybe you should come to California, and convince the State to drop
the ridiculous requirement of getting rid of "non-native" plants
from industrial or commercial properties. I am all for plant
immigration rights! :-)
PLant Immigration RIghts Suppo|5.22.08 @ 7:00PM|#
"False accusers of child abuse are anonymous and immune by
law.According to my CPS investigator friend anyway. She says it is
a Federal law."
I hate to say it but that actually does kind of make sense. It
would make some people less afraid to report. But in this case she
misrepresented who she was. The crime here could be misrepresenting
who she was and not false reporting. She claimed to actually be one
of the children which is very different from merely reporting abuse
that is not there.
|5.22.08 @ 7:00PM|#
Aren't you late for a Truther meeting or something? I'll
waste no more time bandying words with delusional paranoia
sufferers tonight.
I tend not to trust the State when it investigates itself. Call me
old fashioned, but when it comes to ass-covering, the State is
non plus ultra
PLant Immigration RIghts Suppo|5.22.08 @ 7:02PM|#
"Maybe you should come to California, and convince the State to
drop the ridiculous requirement of getting rid of "non-native"
plants from industrial or commercial properties. I am all for plant
immigration rights! :-)"
I am glad to hear that! I would love to take a trip to Sacramento.
How long have these laws been on the books in California. Is this
the Guvernator's doing?
Geoff Nathan|5.22.08 @ 7:13PM|#
Something that nobody has been mentioning, but I saw during an
interview on CNN a couple of days ago (before this recent court
decision) was that the state cannot take children away from mothers
below the age of 16, so there was strong motivation for the
younger-looking mothers to claim they were under 16 in order not to
lose their children. It was on hearing that that I decided this
case was probably going to unravel.
But then I haven't heard it again, and IANAL, especially not one
from Texas.
Plant Immigration RIghts Suppo|5.22.08 @ 7:18PM|#
Take off every 'ZIG' !!
Acording to Wikipedia you can eat Tumbleweed:
"The leaves and shoots of many species are edible, especially when
young and tender, and some are grown as vegetables, often used for
salads, sushi, or as a garnish."
And Kudzu also makes tea and can be used to make baskets or paper.
See these "invasive" plants can be very usefull.
ktc2|5.22.08 @ 7:18PM|#
Yes, I've heard it said that these women deliberately lied to CPS and claimed to be minors so they would be kept with their minor children. Of course at this point the state has a lot of proving to do and I'm wont be taking their word for anything.
|5.22.08 @ 7:47PM|#
So only 3% of the children are being sexually abused or are
in danger of being abused, no problem then!
Ummm, no, the state has further reduced the number of females that
definitely were not underaged from 31 to 15, using the screening
criteria of "18 and over don't count". They still haven't applied
the screens of "16 or 17 married with parental permission don't
count" and "not pregnant and no evidence of sexual contact by adult
males don't count", which could further reduce the number from 15
to as low as -- wait for it -- zero.
In other words, the state hasn't credibly alleged that ANY laws
have been broken by FLDS members, whereas it is certain that the
state has violated the civil rights of hundreds of people.
But, hey, don't let facts get in the way of snark.
|5.22.08 @ 7:58PM|#
J sub D, you couldn't have watched the congressional testimony and come to the conclusion you expressed. If you did watch the testimony in its entirety, the most striking thing about the whole affair is the difference between what was reported by the TV news readers and what you heard for yourself.
|5.22.08 @ 8:00PM|#
SI: If sovereign immunity is invoked there won't be a
trial.
ktc2: Can Texas claim "soveriegn immunity" in a federal civil
rights case?
See Abrogation Doctrine. In short, Congress can abrogate a
State's sovereign immunity in federal civil rights cases under the
14th Amendment.
Franklin Harris|5.22.08 @ 8:25PM|#
So, last weekend I'm at the club, and these two gothic-Lolita
types are standing outside, grooving to the music. They are both
totally hot.
A while later, this women I kinda, sorta know tells me that her
middle-school-age daughter goes to school with the two Lolitas.
They're all 14.
"Why did you have to tell me that?" I asked her. "Now I'm going to
feel guilty about not feeling guilty about all of the nasty,
degrading things I want to do to them."
SIV|5.22.08 @ 8:38PM|#
BC,
How often does Congress do that?
I might be wrong,but I can't see the State of Texas or the US
Congress allowing a suit against Child Welfare bureaucrats by
polygamous Mormon fundies.
People often suggest an abuse by a Gov school,agency, LEO etc can
be addressed with a lawsuit. I don't think it is that easy.
An Honest Question|5.22.08 @ 8:48PM|#
Franklin Harris,
I blame it on added hormones in milk. Girls do develop at earlier
ages than in years past and they seem to develop faster and faster
with each passing year.
|5.22.08 @ 9:15PM|#
My own take is that I'd want to go after these whackos for other
things---like, for instance, welfare fraud. According to what I've
read about the FLDS, they live by "bleeding the beast"---IOW,
massive welfare fraud and scamming the government every way they
can think of.
I also think that no sheriff or chief of police wants Jonestown II
to come down on his turf, so they're trying to encourage the FLDS
to go back to the Utah-Arizona border.
Ben|5.22.08 @ 9:36PM|#
SIV:
False accusers of child abuse are anonymous and immune by law.According to my CPS investigator friend anyway. She says it is a Federal law.
Plant immigration rights supporter:
I hate to say it but that actually does kind of make sense. It would make some people less afraid to report.
Yes, and you'll probably keep saying it right up until the day some
anonymous, immune person claims you or yours has committed such an
act, followed immediately by all manner of fun consequences such as
loss of freedom, inability to ever get anything but a McJob, public
listing on the community, state, and federal "perv" websites,
inability to live near a school, park or bus stop, etc... at which
point the numerous sleeping cells in your brain will almost
certainly wake up and realize why it is critical to be able to face
and counter one's accuser. Or at least they'll generate a
"huh?"
It never fails to amaze me the depth, variety and creativity of
excuses people come up with in order to excuse the erosion or
outright surrender of their liberties. You deserve what you're
going to get, frankly.
Plant Immigration Rights Suppo|5.22.08 @ 9:50PM|#
Ben, ben, ben, ben. Wow slow down here. What I said was "it makes sense" in other words I understand why this law might exist. As for the erosion of liberties I am with you. Actually I may even support less government than you do. I am, an anarchocapitalist. But, within the current government-existing-paradigm I understand why this law exists.
|5.22.08 @ 9:58PM|#
SIV,
I have no idea whether plaintiffs could get around sovereign
immunity in this case. It wouldn't require Congress passing a
specific law for them, but rather plaintiffs would need to make a
case that an existing civil rights law allows them to sue. Perhaps
they could claim religious discrimination or something, I don't
know. I was just pointing out that, in general, states are often
subject to federal civil rights suits without their consent.
Also, like most every state, Texas has a "tort claims act" which
specifies situations where the state has consented to be sued. I
also have no idea whether the Texas statute would allow an action
in this case, but that is another route they may have.
Ben|5.22.08 @ 10:00PM|#
I understand why the law exists as well; it is because the
legislators are incompetent to hold the positions they do and to
make the laws they do, and because the stupid, superstitious,
stampeding public pisses down its collective leg every time anyone
says "for the children" or "trr'rist" or "gun" or even "sex."
Blah.
|5.22.08 @ 11:11PM|#
I might be wrong,but I can't see the State of Texas or the
US Congress allowing a suit against Child Welfare bureaucrats by
polygamous Mormon fundies.
This is outside my portfolio, but I believe that Congress has
already taken blanket action allowing damages in connection with
civil rights suits. Congress doesn't take these up one at a time
and pass a bill for each one, you know.
Monkey Island Fan|5.23.08 @ 3:55AM|#
"What, don't I look 14?"
"Well actually, Mr. Threepwood, you look to be 21, but we're
carding anyone who looks to be under 25, just to be on the safe
side."
|5.23.08 @ 5:44AM|#
From wiki: "Prevalence research for the USA shows that
approximately 20% to 25% of women and 5% to 15% of men experienced
some form of sexual abuse when they were children."
So if this group has got it down to 3% or less, maybe they are
doing something right.
ed|5.23.08 @ 8:47AM|#
I'm so confused. The media continue to call them a "polygamist sect." Isn't polygamy illegal? Or does their "religion" protect the adults from prosecution? Maybe they should ingest sacred mushrooms, just to be on the safe side. In any event, it sounds like a wonderful place for girls to grow up and be forced through psychological duress to have lots of kids with men twice their age. I believe the Constitution protects that kind of lifestyle. And the men sure ain't complaining.
An Honest Question|5.23.08 @ 9:28AM|#
"And the men sure ain't complaining."
They do if they are kicked out of the community
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Boys_of_Polygamy
|5.23.08 @ 11:49AM|#
In any event, it sounds like a wonderful place for girls to
grow up and be forced through psychological duress to have lots of
kids with men twice their age.
If the state wants to make a case based on mental or emotional
abuse, it is welcome to do so. However, Texas law prohibits CPS
from seizing the children while it makes this kind of case; it
(rightly) allows seizure only when the kids are in imminent
physical danger.
Dave W.|5.23.08 @ 11:51AM|#
J sub D thinks everything is a conspiracy theory. Too much military training brainwashed him, it would seem.
ed|5.23.08 @ 12:57PM|#
I think Americans are perfectly happy with emotional or mental abuse. At least the churchgoing ones are.
Neu Mejican|5.23.08 @ 1:48PM|#
Regarding Waco fire:
Coroners' reports indicated that 24 died from gunshot wounds
and 51 from fire-related injuries.... However, in August of 1999,
new evidence surfaced that cast doubt on the committee's
conclusion, and Janet Reno authorized a special counsel to
investigate whether the FBI had intentionally withheld information
indicating that it had played a role in starting the deadly fire.
The special counsel concluded that the HRT had been given authority
to fire three pyrotechnic incendiary devices at a concrete
construction pit about 75 yards from the Branch Dividian compound
(Yardley, 2000). However, the special counsel concluded that the
incendiary devises did not cause the fire that engulfed the Branch
Dividian compound. There is still controversy regarding whether the
Branch Dividians intentionally set the fire in a mass suicide
attempt or whether the fire started accidentally from kerosene
lanterns that had been knocked over during the confusion of the
tear gas assault (Ammerman, 1999).
http://jab.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/37/3/343
THE JOURNAL OF APPLIED BEHAVIORAL SCIENCE, Vol. 37 No. 3, September
2001 343-360
I am not sure if there is any further research to resolve the above
mentioned "controversy" but clearly PIRS's story is not quite
accurate.
Neu Mejican|5.23.08 @ 1:55PM|#
Of note:
"On Sunday, February 28, 1993, a team from the Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearm (ATF) agency descended upon the Branch Dividians'
compound to serve a search warrant for illegal weapons (Committee
on the Judiciary, 1996a, 1996b; Greenberg, 1995; "Waco," 1995).With
an arsenal of hundreds of guns, antitank weapons, two 50 caliber
machine guns, and 1 million rounds of ammunition, the Branch
Dividians were prepared to forcefully resist."
Really all about the 2nd amendment?
If the second is about the right to form militia to resist tyranny
from a central government, should the 2nd have protected the
Davidians? Did they have a right to use force to resist a properly
vetted search warrant?
J Golden Rockwell|5.23.08 @ 10:34PM|#
Well considering the minor little detail that they weren't
presented with a "properly vetted search warrant," your point seems
to have missed whatever the target was.
If you take the time and READ the warrant affidavit, you see that
it has so many fatal flaws that it's got no merit. The average
affidavit is a single page, detailing the supposed crime and the
authority by which the warrant is requested. The Waco affidavit
reads like "Gone With the Wind," and is pretty much as
accurate.
J Golden Rockwell|5.23.08 @ 11:00PM|#
Neu Mejican, have you ever been on fire? Have you ever watched
your loved ones burning to death, knowing that the only choices you
have left are to watch, or to end their misery?
Wouldn't YOU shoot them?
Don't be so quick to buy the Feds' story -- unless, of course, you
have actually seen that steel door that the FBI took into evidence,
then has been unable to find since then. That door can prove the
ATF story false about who fired first.
Since the whole debacle was based on what the ATF claimed, proving
the first lie disproves the rest of the "truths."
. . .you know, like how the FBI agents claimed under oath that they
couldn't be responsible for the fire, because there were no
pyrotechnics used OR EVEN PRESENT. They didn't know that
independent investigators had already found the used Flite-Rite
pyrotechnics.
zoltan|5.24.08 @ 12:17AM|#
Still...not...understanding...why the states of Texas and Arizona could not get some of these people who are guilty of neglect by abandoning their 13- or 14-year-old sons on the side of the road.
|5.25.08 @ 2:25PM|#
PIRS (aka Koresh Worshipper)---
Linking to the websites of the mentally unstable won't change
fantasy into fact. Since you like that website so much, I suppose
you endorse this portion of it:
Following the usurpation of the presidency in 2000 by the
psychopath George W. Bush, and the subsequent installation of the
insane John Ashcroft as Bush's Himmler, things became much worse.
On 9/11 about forty times as many people were murdered as at Waco.
In both cases the murderers have so far gone unpunished.
You can't have it both ways. Either you embrace this nutjob or you
don't.
As for your first source, he's about as nutty as you can get.
Here's another one of his pages:
http://www.greatdreams.com/uforprts.htm
Have you been probed by "Greys, Nazis, Underground Bases, and the
New World Order" too, my friend?
Here's a challenge for you: Try to find one person who isn't
barking batshit crazy who has any proof whatsoever that the FBI set
the fire.
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